Transcripts For CNNW New Day 20140721

Have been laying out here in the heat for hours and hours. The ground here now stained with the blood of 298 victims. When we showed up the scene was so raw, our first instinct was to say a prayer for the victims and the obvious indignity going on before we even reported. There are hard questions about who did this and why and what will happen next. But theres also a lot of evasion and theres a lot of playing of politics here and were going to take it all on for you this morning and show you whats happening here in the final resting place of mh 17. Theres a lot of news this morning. Let me get you back to new york for the headlines with kate and john. Guys . Thanks so much, chris. Well get back to you shortly. Weve got the other major story were following, of course, in israel. Wolf blitzer is on the ground in jerusalem after the deadliest day for both sides in the surge of violence between israel and hamas. Well have more on that in a moment. Again, both International Pressure and anger are growing towards russian president Vladimir Putin this morning for not doing more to stop the rebels in Eastern Ukraine. Hes distancing himself, though, from the disaster, accusing other nations of exploiting the tragedy. This as the u. S. Says theres mounting evidence that russians are training the rebels and also equipping them. The United Nations Security Council set to vote today to condemn the downing of that plane. International body also weighing a resolution calling for immediate access to the wreckage for investigators. Meantime ukraines Prime Minister coming out strong this morning, just a few hours ago, against the russians. We ask all respective governments to participate in this investigation and to support the Ukrainian Government to bring to justice all these who committed this international crime. Lets get back to chris who is live in Eastern Ukraine with much more on the ground. Chris . Reporter thank you, kate, very much. Sorry. Little communications delay here. Behind us youll see the reality of the situation the ukraine Prime Minister said 272 bodies recovered, 250 refrigerated. That would make sense because weve seen about 20 bodies laying out here in the hot sun and this dump truck and these men are loading them on. Hopefully theyll join the others in a more dignified place. We also understand that experts from the netherlands are here and that theyre going to be put in charge of this investigation which has just been completely random in terms of its sophistication so far. But there is some cause for hope this morning in a situation that has been begging for some from the beginning. A show of force by those controlling mh 17s crash site, the devastation seen here surrounded by hostility as those in control are the very people suspected of shooting the plane down over Eastern Ukraine. Startling Satellite Photos show acres of ground scorched by the explosion at the point of impact. On the ground were told hundreds of bodies removed at the hands of government emergency workers along with a group of coal miners, inexperienced by allowed in by prorussian rebels. The remains of more than 250 loaded into two refrigerated trains. The Ukrainian Government negotiating with militants for the bodies to be transported with no information about when they will be identified or where theyll end up. The scene here exposed, fueling International Concerns of tampered evidence. You can tell that this piece hit, rolled and then was moved. Thats going to be a really big distinction for investigators. Russian president Vladimir Putin insisted a team of International Experts conduct work on the site to ensure security. Rebel leaders claim to have the planes cockpit voice and data recorders which may hold critical information about mh 17s last moments. In audio intercepts released by the Ukrainian Government, the alleged commander says moscow is interested in the black boxes and urges his subordinate to find them. Cnn cannot independently confirm the authenticity of that audio. Meanwhile u. S. Intellgence points to the mounting evidence of russias involvement, including evidence that prorussian rebels secretly moved a heavy arsenal of weapons into place days before the crash. We have a video showing a launcher moving back through a particular area there out into russia with at least one missing missile on it. So we have enormous input about this which points fingers. Reporter this is that video posted by Ukraines Interior Ministry of a book missile launcher heading back into russia, suggesting it conducted a launch according to the u. S. Embassy in kiev. I spoke with the rebel Prime Minister about the accusations. The belief of western community and ukraine is that a Russian Missile brought down this plane and there is suspicion it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that . Translator i dont know what to say because the World Community doesnt want to hear it. We had no reason to take down this plane and ukraine had this reason to destroy our government. Reporter you have to remember, while its good to hear this message from ukraines Prime Minister, that netherlands is coming in, theres going to be cooperation, the bodies are going to be taken care of, ukraine is not in control of where im standing right now. The man you just heard is, Prime Minister, selfappointed bore d die. He had very different answers to the questions needed to be asked. The man sets up like a warlord, surrounded by very well armed men who we are told are russian trained. But conversation was too important to avoid and the questions were put to him. Here is what he had to say. Translator yes, it is true, so to speak. These items resemble the black boxes very much, but i cannot officially declare these are the black boxes. We do not have the experts that can say, yes, it is them and not anything else. So please answer the allegations. Ukraine and western intelligence Authorities Say there was a tweet connected to the dpr that said that your forces had taken control of a Russian Missile system that it took from ukraine, that theyve intercepted conversations bragging that they had taken down the plane. So if you have the tweet and the conversations and the pictures that all point to your forces, how do you deny that it was your forces that brought down the plane . Translator it is very simple to disprove it. All the information that comes through the internet in my opinion is practically all lies. So the tweet is fake, the conversations that they say they intercepted are fake, the picture of the Missile System moving back across the border, is that fake as well . Translator i am telling you again, we have never been in possession of even a single book system. Ki list all the means of defense we have in our possession. All these means of defense are capable of crashing only the lowflying targets. Theres a new report that russia is helping train your forces from a base not far from your border. Is that true . Is russia helping train your forces to fight against ukraine. Translator i will not comment on this question. You should ask russia this question. Why no comment, mr. Prime minister when youre in control of donetsk, why wouldnt you tell me . Translator you know a question addressing the Russian Federation, i dont have the moral right to answer because at this moment i am speaking as a representative of the donetsk peoples republic. I consider it not right. This site, four days its been and bodies are still there in the sun. You can imagine if it were your Family Member how you would feel about their body being out there for so long. Why were they allowed to stay there so long . Why werent the bodies taken care of and given dignity sooner . Translator you know its a fantastic story. The thing is that as soon as members of osce arrived they notified us that if we started moving the bodies, that we will be responsible. It got to the point where it resembled if not a horror movie, then black humor. When an old woman comes to our rebel groups and says, look, there is a body of a headless man fell through the roof straight onto my bed, please take this man away. The rebels say no because they are following instructions. Can you guarantee that International Help will be allowed in right away now . Translator yes, of course. We give these guarantees. We invite them here and are waiting for them to be here as soon as possible. Understand why im asking. They call this the biggest crime scene in the world right now, 298 people were killed, maybe as part of a conflict they had nothing to do with, and those families had to see the bodies of their loved ones rotting in the sun, so theyre angry, too. Its hard to see it and thats why i wanted to ask you why you werent taking care of it sooner. People want answers about what happened up in the sky because those people, as you know, did not deserve to die. Translator i understand. I am trying to get rid of the fog of war and want to make you understand that we were trying to push for these bodies to be collected as fast as possible. I want to give you one last opportunity to answer this question. The belief of the western community and of ukraine is that a Russian Missile brought down this plane, and theres suspicion it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that . Translator what can i say . I have addressed this topic many times, but i am under the impression that myself and my colleagues are not being heard. Lets look at the real facts. Firstly, we didnt have any motive to target this plane. But for ukraine, our enemy, the crash of this plane is very beneficial. Reporter one thing is for sure, bore die is right, he had no motive to target the people on mh 17, they had nothing to do with this situation on the ground. Everything else is up to being challenged, the idea that he and his forces did not move have the bodies because they were referred not to by the osce, weve asked and they were told that is a lie, that they were never asked to do that. There were cranes here moving things around. Nobody advised them to do that either. Holding the black box, not advised by anybody to do that either. While this was not a comfortable conversation with this man, this man eyeing us very carefully right now, these questions had to be asked if theres ever going to be a clear picture of what happened here. Unfortunately the world attention and the lack of action here is not unusual to whats going on around the globe right now. Wolf blitzer standing in the midst of another conflict that desperately demands international attention. Wolf, good to hear you there. Reporter chris, i want you to be careful over there. Youre doing amazing reporting, you and our entire team on the ground over there. Well get back to you shortly. Its a brutal situation in Eastern Ukraine, a brutal situation over here as well. The battle along the gaza strip has been taking a very, very ugly turn, the deadliest day yet. More than a dozen Israeli Soldiers, nearly 90 palestinians killed on sunday alone. Two of the casualties on the israeli side are americans. And secretary of state john kerry left washington about five hours ago. Hes on route to the region. First stop cairo. He hopes to try to broker a ceasefire. Hell eventually show up here in israel. Other stops as well. But first, lets go to gaza to cnns karl penhaul who is on the scene for us. Carl, what are the latest developments right now . Reporter wolf, there is still heavy fighting apparently going on in eastern parts of gaza. Weve heard air strikes going in. Weve heard artillery occasionally, also. Weve heard the sound of assault rifles firing, possibly an indication that theres some kind of handtohand fighting going on between israeli troops and militant factions there. Gaza militants have continued to fire rockets. What we cannot overstate enough is in the course of this war between the militants and between israel, the majority of the casualties on the palestinian side have been civilians, between 70 and 80 according to the United Nations. On the other side in israel so far, the majority of casualties have been military. But lets take a look at the impact on the civilian population of fighting over the weekend. Reporter fleeing for their lives, few belong innings, just the clothes on their backs. As they go, israeli bombs blast their neighborhood. This man says he had to abandon his own mother. She refused to leave. Reporter since first light thousands of people have been streaming down this street, one of the roads that israelis in a pamphlet drop told civilians they could transfer safely along without fear of being bombed. As they walk, were hearing explosions all around. A human tide just trying to cling to life. Theyre just hitting us, hitting and hitting, he says. At gazas main hospital, no more space for the wounded. No choice except ever transfer the bleeding and the dieing to other clinics. For those who didnt make it, a resting place on the bloodsoaked floor of the morgue. A brief ceasefire was just enough time to take away the dead and wounded and for a few more to escape. It was at best a shaky truce. We went to get our things but the Israeli Soldiers fired at us, this woman says. The Israeli Military took casualties, 13 dead, many more wounded. Few details about how or where, but the israeli armys highest lost in a single day since lebanon in 2006. Addressing the israeli people Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered condolences but vowed israel will complete the task and return peace to his country. Peace is something the people of gaza also want, but are unlikely to see for days and maybe weeks yet. Right now there is no sign that militant fighters are shrinking away from this battle with israel. In fact, in terms of guerilla warfare an asymmetrical war between a much more powerful israeli army and a smaller Guerilla Force like islamist jihad and other factions, for hamas theyre giving a pretty good account of themselves in guerilla warfare. Were seeing tunnels that the israelis have failed to shut down so far but are certainly fighting hard to do so and also worryingly overnight we saw that they may have captured an israeli soldier earlier in the day, sunday. If it does prove true, and so far the Israeli Military have not confirmed that, but if it does prove true, hamas is likely to exploit that to use that as political and military leverage, wolf. Reporter the israelis say their priority number one is doing away from the tunnels that go into israeli that could allow hamas militants to crawl through and attack israelis inside israel. Thats priority number one. Karl penhaul on the scene, karl, thanks very much. Later ill speak with netanyahus spokesman. Well get the latest on the hamas claim that theyve captured an israeli soldier. In the meantime, back to new york for more news. Guys . Thanks so much, wolf, on the situation in israel and gaza. Michaela, the headlines. Here are your headlines at this hour. I want to take a look at the fires burning in the pacific northwest. Cooler temperatures could help the fire crews that are battling 21 uncontrolled wildfires in Washington State and in oregon. Nearly a million acres have already burned. At least 150 homes have been destroyed. One person died trying to save his home. Officials say some 35 hot shot crews are on the scene battling the flames and hopefully the milder temperatures will aid in the fire fight. Four emts have been assigned to modified duty for their response to a dieing new york city man put in a choke hold. The emts offered no medical help after 43yearold garner layed dieing. Garner will be laid to rest wednesday. Happening today, president obama will award the medal of honor to a veteran of the war in afghanistan. Army Staff Sergeant ryan pitts held off a surprise assault by the taliban in 2008 even after being injured by a hand grenade. Nine soldiers were killed, 27 others wounded in that attack. Pitt said he is accepting the medal for all the soldiers who fought with him that day. Brave, brave soldiers they are, too. Thanks, michaela. Lets take a break. A lot of news coming up on new day including u. S. And western allies trying to hold russianbacked rebels accountable for the attack on flight 17. Wheel talk to cnns christian amman important about what she thinks Vladimir Putin is saying about the disaster. Plus well go inside the battle for the control of this crash site. So crucial. Chris cuomo is on the ground there. He takes us inside. When la quinta. Com sends sales rep Steve Hatfield the ready for you alert, the second his room is ready. You know what he brings . Any questions . Can i get an a, steve . Yes three as he brings his agame the ready for you alert, only at laquinta. Com sea captain theres a narratorstorm cominhe storm narrator that whipped through the turbine which poured. 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Okay you cant forget the cc. Guys, this is going to take a while. Avo hurry in and you can get a 1,000 turbocharged reward card when you lease a new 2014 jetta se for 199 a month. This is the moment of truth where they need to just stop saying things and make sure they happen. Where is putin . I would say putin, you have to man up. You hear it right there, top american officials losing patience, it seems pretty apparent are Vladimir Putin. Two malaysian planes are waiting the fly to ukraine to help return the remains of victims of the mh 17 disaster. Will rebels allow any of that to happen and how can tensions be cooled in this expanding conflict . The urgency could not be overstated. Joining us now to discuss, cnns chief International Correspondent christiane amanpour. Wolf will be joining in as well. A lot happened over the weekend. We heard from john kerry on all the sunday shows here in United States saying over and over again, this is a moment of truth for Vladimir Putin. Big words, but what does that mean . What does that mean for the u. S. Response . Well, its the u. S. And the western and the rest of the worlds response. Ukrainian officials have constantly said they want to see the world talk with a united voice, one voice to president putin because it is absolutely clear that president putin has significant influence over those separatist rebels or at the very least, and at the very least significant influence over his own military closing that border. So what has happened over the last weekend is that many of the european leaders have spoken to him in no uncertain terms, echoing what secretary of state has said, that this is a moment of truth for Vladimir Putin. This is a moment where he has to choose between continuing the obfuscation or turning the corner and finally trying to do something that will stop him and russia from becoming a pariah state. As we look into this, it is absolutely clear from all sorts of open Source Information as well as what were hearing from government intelligence, that it was a russianbased system or russianmade system, most likely used by the rebels that brought down that plane. Interestingly, russian president putin and their foreign minister lavrov have not specifically denied it. They have not denied it. So there is wiggle room, the west hopes. What does, in not so how far will these european leaders be willing to go now, christi christiane, up until now theyve been hesitant to act with their wallet. They get gas and oil from russia. Theyve been hesitant for sanctions. Will they be willing to go that far . The headlines here in europe and in london for sure is that west hands putin an ultimatum. They are talking much more sanctions. Tomorrow there will be another round of discussions between western leaders, european leaders as to how to increase the sanctions. The british chancellor, otherwise known as the treasury secretary, the finance minister said today it is more expensive for us to live in a world where a major power does not respect International Borders and brings about these kinds of tragedies than it is to actually impose sanctions to try to bring some pressure. So sanctions are now being talked about much more seriously. But you know, you are right. For the last several months since this has been going on, the world has not been fully united on it. The u. S. Has put sanctions on various individuals targeting certain individuals, et cetera. They havent had socalled sectorwide sanctions on areas of the economy and were not sure that will happen. But they are ratcheting up and piling up the pressure on Vladimir Putin right now. Really he is the only one, the only one who can bring any influence to bear on the separatists. Reporter christian, i want you to help me out on the ground here to connect some dots. Obviously what youre saying is going to be well heeded by everybody. Its clear at this point maybe economic sanctions arent enough, especially with europes dependency on the gas out of russia. It then comes to what else can you do . You have to figure out the situation here ton ground first. Bore die, the self appointed Prime Minister of this region wouldnt answer my questions about whether or not russia was helping him, which i thought was curious to say the least. What does that mean to you that he would not acknowledge russia. Theyve been playing this double game for months now. Theyve been saying, hey, were independent. We are separatists who want this and that from the kiev government and we want to carve out our own little state. Ive seen this picture before, its called bosnia. It happened in the 90s. In this case president putin is playing the milosevich game of encouraging separatists and then pretending they dont actually have influence. This is already precedent in international experience. They do have influence. They can, as i say, at the very least, close their border so that these heavy weapons dont come across. But more than that, and i listened very carefully to your interview are borodai. He did deny they would have shot it down themselves on purpose. Well, thats not the accusation. Nobody is saying they shot it on purpose. Theyre saying they may have made a mistake, wanting to shoot a Ukrainian Military flight. Theyre not even willing to say they shot it down by mistake. The russians, Vladimir Putin and Sergey Lavrov have not yet denied that specific allegation. There is some wiggle room. Obviously president putin and russia has suffered to the extent over the International Probe and the limited sanctions that have already been imposed. Their stock market, their economy, their flight of capital, the lack of confidence in their economy has all come home to roost. Now we can get the message to actually turn this corner and take the ukrainian president s outstretched hand of a peace plan. I have an exclusive interview with the ukrainian president later today. Well see what his plan is now to face off with Vladimir Putin, chris. Reporter that will be so important. Because as you well know, ukraine is not in control of the region where i am right now. You have to deal with russias influence and these local militias. On that point, what does it mean if russia is influencing them and its almost impossible to believe theyre not when this local Prime Minister is surrounded by Russian Military men. What does it mean that hes allowing this to continue . That russia has not pushed them to open this scene to international cooperation, to leave the bodies the way they have, to make the dignity the fuel for outrage for the entire world . Why would Vladimir Putin allow this to happen and continue . Chris, youre absolutely right. Over the last four days the actions on the ground have been revolting, revolting. 100 years ago we had world war i and those sides managed to call truces, ceasefires, whatever they needed to do. In this case it hasnt happened. It is appalling. To see a former superpower, the former soviet union, the russian president who wants to have pride and dignity and a big role in the world for russia, not to insist that this site is secured and those bodies get the decency that international law, not to mention human law and human morality demands, and to seal it off and allow investigators to come immediately is truly something nobody can understand. Thats why here the two slightly reluctant World Leaders have been galvanized into this united sense of outrage to actually hold him to account now, because they know hes the only one who can do anything. You heard the australian Prime Minister australia lost so many of its own citizens after the dutch which lost so many of their citizens as well, as well as malaysia and other countries, the australian Prime Minister said the notion that these separatist rebels are securing the site is like having criminals secure their own crime site. Chris, lets not forget, there was an election in ukraine. These rebels are outliers. They dont represent anybody except themselves and a handful of people who are just out there playing very dangerous games. The russians accuse the ukrainians of being fascist and neo nazis and this and that. Lets not forget that the socalled extreme right groups in the election in the end of may want less than 2 of the vote. Petro poroshenko was elected by a majority of the country including in that eastern region. I spoke to him a few weeks ago. He detailed the peace plan to them and russia. They have not picked it up. He wants to do it again. Lets see if they will this time. Chris yan, its wolf. Secretary of state john kerry left washington about five or six hours ago on his way to cairo to see if he can stop the bloodshed which has been awful between israel, hamas and gaza. Do you think kerry realistically can get that ceasefire . Its incredibly difficult to see how its going to happen at any time before israel decides its got enough out of this ramped up invasion and air bombardment to claim some kind of victory. I was watching just like you, wolf, what happened overnight, scores and scores of palestinians. Also i think 13 Israeli Soldiers were killed. Its the biggest Israeli Military death toll since the 2006 war that i covered, you covered in lebanon, and there is theres a lot more at stake now as the death tolls increase so dramatically. Obviously its very uneven. Theres a much smaller number of israelis who have been killed. Hundreds and hundreds of palestinians have been killed. Whether or not secretary kerry can, not just convince the new egyptian authorities who are obviously working on it, but to have that leverage on hamas to insist they take up this time of a new ceasefire agreement. Again, were going to be speaking im going to be speaking with the israeli minister of justice, the first time she speaks since this Ground Invasion since the air bomb bartment. She was the lead negotiator in the now defunct and collapsed peace talks. Wolf, you know better than i do, this is a serial occurrence in israel, between israel and hamas over the last decade or so, that its all these intermittent wars followed by a little bit of cessation of hostilities, only to start up again. Unless theres some much bigger resolution to this, this is going to be a pattern well be watching and covering for a long, long time. Lets hope that they can emerge from this current conflict with some sort of resolution. I heard one israeli commentator earlier today recall that after the 1973 war, thats when anwar sed dot was the leader of egypt. He decided to make peace following what was a very bloody warthen. Lets go back to new york. John berman is standing by. Thanks so much. So many important events going on around the world. Next up for us on new day, how do you investigate the attack on flight 17 when there is so much infighting in ukraine already . So dangerous. Chris cuomo will have a look on how monitors are trying to get to the wreckage and the resistance that they face. Totally delectabowl. Real silky smooth or creamy broths. Everything shes been waiting for. Carefully crafted with real seafood, real veggies, and never any byproducts or fillers. Wow being a cat just got more enjoyabowl. Fancy feast broths. Wow served daily. Tdrink something that is acidicy on a daily basis. Those acids made over time wear the enamel. I recommend pronamel. Pronamel helps to defend the enamel from the acids in our diet. It helps to strengthen the teeth. Hey pal . You ready . Can you pick me up at 6 30 . Ah. boy im here im here cop too late. I was gone for five minutes ugh move it. Youre killing me. You know what, dad . Im good. dad it may be quite a while before hes ready, but our Subaru Legacy will be waiting for him. vo the longestlasting midsize sedan in its class. Introducing the allnew Subaru Legacy. Its not just a sedan. Its a subaru. I voted for culture. With a k. how are you . I voted for plausible deniability. I didnt kill her, david. And i voted for decisive military action. Xfinity presents the peoples hotlist where you choose this summers top 100 shows and movies. And all you have to do is watch with xfinity on demand. Now through july 23rd. Vote Eastern Ukraine because this is the final resting place of flight mh 17. This is called the biggest crime scene in the world, and it is probably being mishandled in as big a way as you can imagine. Even the perimeter, what is called the perimeter, theres so much outside of it that any forensic expert that would want to Pay Attention to. What has been happening here that makes it worse, its in control of local militants under in a sishlg suspicion about how this plane came down in the first place. They havent allowed people in. They didnt want experts here, they didnt want the Monitoring Team here. They didnt want media here. They have a lot of force at their disposal. The task was for cameras to become tools to investigate and preserve whats here so that the real experts can get the answers that the families of the 298 victims deserve so very, very much. Sun flowers and wheat and farmland changed in an instant. A dark cloud and thunder fills the sky as mh 17 is shot down. The planes 298 souls, men, women, children crash into the middle of a battlefield and now an undignified limbo. Local militants suspected by ukrainian authorities of bringing down the plane restrict access with the constant threat of force and gunfire. Why it is the way it is, theyre telling us to move back. At least hes being gentle about it this time. Cameras become tools to preserve the scene as much as to report on it. Today were traveling with one of the Monitoring Teams tosce. Were going to see if theyre given access to the crash site and what has been done and what isnt. When we arrive, the area is raw, bodies still everywhere, exposed to onlookers, dogs and hot sun. Personal effects, the last traces, memories of loved ones picked through. Intact valuables seem to be missing. Over my shoulder you see a major portion of the crash site that monitors have not been able to inspect, but has been very well picked over. Theres Something Else i want to show you thats pretty interesting here. Theyve drawn a line for the boundary, right . Look, theres so much outside of it they havent taken into account. It just goes to the need of having the right people here and theyre not here yet. The militants in charge of the dignity of the victims seem more interested in a show of force than in showing respect. Were heading back a little bit here because the security situation is very tenuous. The invitation is only as good as the mood of the men in front of us with the weapons. Finally, two days after the crash, bodies are bagged and trucked away. But to where . We follow monitors to a nearby train station. Inside some cars designed to carry meat. We verified there are body bags in these wagons. Reporter theres no way for monitors to count the bodies or inspect inside. Going inside is impossible without special equipment. The stench is very, very bad. Reporter and there is no bad to come. At this point the military is stopping us from going any further. Regional security decides weve seen enough. Once again, hands on guns, they tell us to go. Villagers take up our cause. One woman takes us to a neighboring area and there we see this, a collection of debris residents have assembled in a makeshift memorial to the lives lost, a rare show of respect and empathy. Nearby a remarkable find in a tree above, an overhead bin closed and intact. It just serves as a reminder of the desperate need for attention and care before its too late. Can you imagine a crime scene somewhere in the United States where local people in the community had to point out huge pieces of wreckage, days after there was supposedly an investigation in place. Thanks to those villagers doing the right thing, bringing everything in, alerting the authorities here. Its the best hope of any type of preservation of this scene along with the media. The good news. Look where we are this morning, a horrible place to have to be. At least were allowed here. Just yesterday i had to sneak around with these men with their weapons trying to keep us away as we followed the monitors. They are doing more. There is some progress. I do think having the media here has made a difference. But where are these bodies going to be ultimately . Will they be identified . When do the families get to be reunified . These are important questions. Hopefully well have the man in charge of the monitoring situation hes not a forensic expert, not in charge of flight investigations, hes here to observe violence, the closest thing to an expert theyve had here. Hopefully well find him soon to talk to. The fact that families of 298 people still remain in limbo. They have no idea where their loved ones are, whats happening to their bodies. Another thing, i know there have been some signs at least of the potential mishandling of evidence, chris. Youve been on the ground there. Are you seeing that still today . Has that changed . Reporter mishandling of evidence, absolutely. There was a huge crane here, it was lifting things up, moving them around. You would hope it was looking for bodies. At least theres some rationale for that. But it cant be for the crime scene. Looting, a lot of rumors about looting. I havent seen it. I have seen no valuables and i havent been told theyve been collected anywhere else, cell phones, wallets. That speculation we brought to the selfappointed Prime Minister here, john. He said, yes, there may have been looting. Well find them, well punish them. Chris, youve spoken about the men with weapon whose have been around you. We saw pictures of them. I dont know if theyre around you now so if you cant answer honestly, ill understand. Are these people who look like theyre under strict control from higherups orchids roaming around aimlessly be guns at this point . Reporter its the right question. The osce, the monitoring agency, tells us there are about 100 disparate militant groups, some russian imports, others just bandits. When we spoke to the Prime Minister, i pushed him to say hes in charge. When you go through checkpoints, john, youve had this experience, theyre a Different Group almost every time. However, the men surrounding this selfappointed Prime Minister are no joke. Someone who is with us who has been here his whole life say they are from russia, not from here. Theyre very intent on making their message known and fighting this fight. Be safe out there, chris, we appreciate your reporting on the ground here. Its important to get that view to see for ourselves whats going on and whats not going on in some cases. A reminder, were now four days in after this tragedy, all in the midst of this crisis unfolding in Eastern Ukraine. Chris is on the ground, well be getting back to him throughout the show. Up next on new day, much more on the crisis from the ground. First, new bloodshed in gaza. The deadliest day for both sides since the fighting between israel and hamas began. Two americans among those killed. Well get back to wolf blitzer on the ground in jerusalem who will be talking to the spokesman of the israeli Prime Minister. [ male announcer ] this is the cat that drank the milk. [ meows ]. And let in the dog that woke the man who drove to the control room [ woman ] driverless mode engaged. Find parking space. [ woman ] parking space found. [ male announcer ]. That secured the data that directed the turbines that powered the farm that made the milk that went to the store that reminded the man to buy the milk that was poured by the girl who loved the cat. [ meows ] the internet of everything is changing everything. Cisco. Tomorrow starts here. The internet of everything is changing everything. Really. So our business can be on at ts network for 175 dollars a month . Yup. All five of you for 175. Our clients need a lot of attention. Theres unlimited talk and text. Were working deals all day. You get 10 gigabytes of data to share. What about expansion potential . Add a line anytime for 15 bucks a month. Low dues. Great terms. Lets close. Introducing at t mobile share value plans. With our bestever pricing for business. When youre voting for this summers top 100 shows and movies with xfinity on demand, beep, beep, beep. Watch to vote for family values on family movie night. This message paid for and approved by xfinitys family hits. Tell me the whole thing again, i wasnt listening. Watch to vote with xfinity on demand. For this summers top 100 shows and movies. And remember, the only thing to fear is fear itself, and spoilers for shows you havent seen yet. Global. Pandemic. Welcome back to new day. Im wolf blitzer in jerusalem. Secretary of state i dont know kerry is on his way to cairo to try to deal with the very, very deadly situation unfolding here between israel and hamas in gaza. The violence is spurring new urgency for the United States and others to try to find some sort of ceasefire solution. Lets discuss the very latest. Mark regev joins us. There are conflicting reports. Does hamas have an israeli soldier right now that they say they took . It could just be hamas brav have had dough. We dont underestimate hamas. Hamas has built a formidable machine. That network of tunnels under the gaza strip, theres a seb terrainian terror world. Some of those can go into israel and pop up on our side of the frontier with arms, with explosives and can cause murder and hey hem on our side. We take the hamas threat very seriously. Not confirming or denying, you dont know whether or not the hamas claim is true. Were looking into it as we speak. Lets talk about secretary of state john kerry. Hes heading to cairo. I assume hell come to israel after that. Is that right . The secretary of state of the United States is always a welcome guest in israel. Is there a plan for him to go from cairo to israel, turkey, account tar, hes supposed to be engaged in efforts to come up with a ceasefire. I dont have details. I can tell you the following, america has stood by israel. President obama, secretary kerry yesterday. Lets be clear. Theres a wall to wall condemnation of hamas shooting rockets at our people, on hamas for rejecting ceasefire proposals and wall to wall support for israels right to defend ourselves against these attacks. A lot of condemnation coming from various human rights groups, some countries saying that youre going too far. I would ask those countries, what would you do if your civilian population was on the receiving end of 2,000 rockets launched by terrorists on the other side of the frontier. If people ask that question, they would be more understanding of israels predicament. You heard the open mic exchange that john kerry had, doing all five sunday talk shows. In between one he was overheard speaking to one of his aides on a cell phone. He sounded sarcastic when he spoke about israels supposedly pinpointing its military operation, as if he really didnt believe that was true. Whats your reaction to that . Whats important is what he said publicly. That was that israel is under siege by hamas and we are exercising our right of selfdefense in dealing with that threat. As to the conflict in gaza, war is a terrible thing. Anyone who has been in combat, anyone who has covered combat knows that people get hurt, people get killed. We did our best to avoid this conflict. Prime minister netanyahu tried to deescalate. It exploded. Once the fighting started he accepted the egyptian ceasefire proposal. Hamas rejected it. Are you ready to accept another ceasefire, even if it were to be announced by egypt. Israel withdraws forces from gaza, hamas stops firing rockets and missiles . Is it too late . Are you ready to accept that . Our goal is to end the terror attacks from gaza into israel. Our goal is there shouldnt rockets fired on our citizens and we shouldnt see terrorists trying to infiltrate through the tunnels as we saw this morning. I guess the question is can you accept the ceasefire before you destroy those tunnels going from gaza into israel . At the moment we dont have to answer that question because hamas says no. Hamas keeps shooting rockets into israel and keeps trying to launch terror attacks against our people. Just this morning there were two squads of hamas terrorist whose came through tunnels, entered israel in the south, tried to attack two different areas where civilians, farmers are trying to conduct their daily lives. It shows who hamas is. Hamas is an extremist deadly terror organization. The worst of all is people of gaza are suffering because of hamas. They didnt want this war, wolf. Is there good cooperation between the new government in egypt and your government . Many governments in the arab world including egypt see ham 345s for what it is and dont support hamass violence. Lets remember the egyptian ceasefire proposals were endorsed by the arab league. Thats important because the arab league is not known to be a end friend of israel. The fact that they show they endorsed the egyptian ceasefire proposes als that hamas rejected, it shows how isolated hamas is not just in the General International community but how isolated hamas is. Ban ki moon, the u. N. Secretary general is on his way here. Whats his status . Hes trying to get a ceasefire as well. I think the focus of diplomacy at the home is to get behind the egyptian proposal. It has to be clear that mediation is going to work, that there has to only be one mediator. Once again, our goal is to end the hostile fire on israels cities. Hamas said no to a ceasefire proposal. Were acting to defend ourselves. We will see hamas come out of this substantially weakened. Their arsenal of dangerous weapons diminished. They will understand they cant shoot at our people. Mark regev, spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. It looks like all the efforts for a ceasefire will continue. Whether or not anything is going to be changing today or tomorrow, in my mind that looks unlikely. Well see where we go from here. Kerry should be in egypt soon. I assume hell be heading to jerusalem shortly thereafter. Thanks so much to the israeli Prime Minister spokesman. There is a lot of news going on this morning of course in ukraine and the middle east. Lets get right to it. Reporter we have breaking news live from the final resting place of mh 17 and a hostile area of Eastern Ukraine. The u. S. And the world is ramping up pressure on Vladimir Putin. New evidence as to who shot the plane down and the possible attempts to cover it up. The crash site controlled by rebel fighters, 298 bodies now in limbo. Their memories and dignity at the mercy of a larger battle. We have hard questions for the rebel leader. Please answer the allegation. Reporter as families and the world demand answers and action. Reporter im wolf blitzer live from jerusalem. Breaking news, the deadliest day for both sides in the conflict. More than a dozen Israeli Soldiers killed. Two of them americans and 90 palestinians killed. The death toll rises. Now secretary of state john kerry on route to the region to stop the bloodshed. Now this. Hamas claims theyve captured an israeli soldier. Reporter a special edition of new day starts right now. We are at what is being called the biggest crime scene in the world here in a hostile region of east ukraine. Behind me you can see for yourself. This is the final resting place of mh 17, 298 people lost their lives here and still this morning bodies just being recovered, just being put in bags, still left out in the sun and eventually being put into trucks and moved away. Theres a lot to tell you about thats going on here. Some of it is good. A lot of it isnt. Let me get you back to new york for the headlines. John, kate . We or also following the other big story in israel. Wolf blitzer is on the ground in jerusalem. Lets begin with the grief and politics and fingerpointing still at this point after the attack on flight 17. Vladimir put tin is pushing back against International Criticism over his support of prorussian rebels. The United States and much of europe hold putin responsible for not curbing his support for the separatists. Putin has responded by accusing other nations of exploiting the tragedy. The United Nations Security Council will vote today do condemn the attack on mh 17 after a late night meeting to discuss a resolution calling for access of the wreckage site for investigators. The dutch have teams to where the bodies are being held. Meantime ukraines Prime Minister was strong, had strong words for the russians this morning. I dont care about, not rebels, but these russianled guerillas, they are not rebels. I expect nothing from the russian government. What they can do, they can supply weapon, they can send welltrained agents, they can support these guerillas, but they have to stop. Reporter strong words from ukraines Prime Minister. He said 270 bodies have been recovered, 250 have been transferred into these refrigerated train cars that well show you later on, and that sounds right because, as i said, we just saw another truck with bodies from this site coming through not long ago. Here is the problem. The promise that the dutch are now here and that they can identify the bodies and can lead this investigation with their expertise is great coming from ukraines Prime Minister, but he is not in control of the area where im standing right now. The man who is, a selfappointed Prime Minister has a very different sense about ukraines authority which is to say they have none. Here is a little bit of what happened when i interviewed him and asked him some of the hard questions. A show of force by those controlling mh 17s crash site. The devastation seen here surrounded by hostility as those in control are the very people suspected of shooting the plane down over Eastern Ukraine. Startling Satellite Photos show acres of ground scorched by the explosion at the point of impact. On the ground were told hundreds of bodies removed at the hands of government emergency workers along with a group of coal miners, inexperienced but allowed in by prorussian rebels. The remains of more than 250 loaded into two refrigerated trains. The Ukrainian Government negotiating with militants for the bodies to be transported with no information about when they will be identified or whether theyll end up. The scene here exposed, fueling International Concerns of tampered evidence. You can tell that this piece hit, rolled and then was moved, and thats going to be a really big distinction for investigators. Russian president Vladimir Putin insisted a team of International Experts conduct work on the site to ensure security. Rebel leaders claim to have the cockpit voice and data recorders which may hold Key Information about mh 17s last moments. In audio intercepts the alleged commander says moscow is very interested in the black boxes and urges his subordinate to find them. Cnn cannot independently confirm the authenticity of that audio. Meanwhile, u. S. Intelligence points to the mounting evidence of russias involvement including evidence that prorussian rebels secretly moved a heavy arsenal of weapons into place days before the crash. We have a video showing a launcher moving back through a particular area there out into russia with it missing, at least one missing missile on it. So we have enormous input about this which points fingers. Reporter this is that video posted by Ukraines Interior Ministry of a missile launcher heading back into russia, suggesting it had conducted a launch according to the u. S. Embassy in kiev. I spoke with the rebel Prime Minister about those occasions. The belief of the western community and ukraine is that a Russian Missile brought down this plane, and theres suspicion it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that . Translator i dont know what to say because the World Community doesnt want to hear it. We had no reason to take down this plane and ukraine had this reason to destroy our government. Reporter one thing is for sure. The fighting is very real. Were getting reports right now that in donetsk which is the nearest city to where we are there is active fighting. Ukrainian Authorities Say they plan to retake the city. It could be going on right now. Well keep you apprised. I want to bring in congressman ed royce, the chairman of the House Committee on foreign affairs. When i interviewed this selfappointed Prime Minister, he refused to answer any question about russia. When i pressed him about whether or not hes getting aid, he said its not for me to discuss another sovereign. Go talk to him. He was surrounded by who i am told are Russian Military. What do you think the reality is . The reality is exactly that. I was in Eastern Ukraine and we were in the neighboring state and indeed what we found was that they were catching russian agents in that area. Those russian agents were there to try to support people, to try to foment resolution in the region. As we talk to womens groups, different minority groups in order to make sure we talked to all of the russian groups, russianspeaking groups in Eastern Ukraine, they all gave us the same message, tell the russians to butt out. Theyre bringing the weapons in. As long as putin does that, it keeps this chaos going. Reporter so identifying the problem seems to be fairly simple, congressman. I dont know if you can see the scene behind me, but im sure youre familiar with it. The question is very obvious. What are you going to do about this. The selfappointed Prime Minister had a smile on his face when i talked about the u. S. And western authorities maybe taking action against this region of fighters or maybe even russia because of this, there was a smile on his face. Do you believe theres anything you can do to influence whats going on . Yes. Absolutely. We need u. S. Leadership right now because with all of the anger that you see in europe and in asia and around the world over this issue, this is the first opportunity we have to force putins hand. That vote is going to come today in the Security Council, from samantha power, our u. N. Ambassador is going to raise this issue. Already russia is trying to waut they are down, but the International Community is going to take a stand here on this resolution. And afterwards they should look at international sanction. We need the international will to come together here. Russia has transferred 150 tanks, rocket launchers and similar heavy equipment there recently into Eastern Ukraine. They are ramping this up. Theyve shot down 12 planes so far. This one just happened to be a civilian jetliner. Now is the time to put the pressure on putin. So u. S. Leadership to get the europeans and the rest of the world on board for the types of strong sanctions that would force putins hand. Congressman, youre talking about ramping up violence in the region. Weve also seen ramping up of sanctions over time against russia. But now we still are seeing that russia is not seeing this as leverage for them to really have to act in any way that the International Community wants Vladimir Putin to act. At some point doesnt it become a moral imperative, a moral responsibility for the United States to lead and to do more . There are 298 souls that have been lost innocently in this tragedy. Thats what i just indicated. We have been in favor but is sanctions going to do it . Well, the problem so far is sanctions are usually u. S. Sanctions here. The question has been how do you get the dutch on board. The dutch last time were one of the countries that did not want to support these additional sanctions and watered them down. I can guarantee you the dutch have changed their position, and not just the dutch. I can guarantee you that from malaysia to central asia to east asia, everyone now recognizes that the transfer of this kind of offensive weaponry, missiles into the hands of poorly trained separatists is a threat to everyone. I think putin is going to be under enormous pressure. Now is the time to lead and bring about an International Coalition to isolate him, not just diplomatically as we will at the u. N. Today, but also economically in terms of sector sanctions. I think well have the power now to do it if were aggressive and do it. Remember, we have not up until now the administration had not really helped ukraine on the ground. Youve got this massive influx of russian agents and heavy weaponry and we havent done anything in response to that. Should the u. S. Do more to help the ukrainians on the ground, chairman . Do you think the United States should be sending weaponry, should the United States be sending people to train the Ukrainian Forces here . Talking about the european leaders, talking netherlands and germ any as well. Are you really confident after all this time finally germany, among others, will step forward and say well pay a little extra for fuel and maybe levy extra sanctions on russia . Now is the time for germany to step forward on this. When we were there, the neighboring state there to donetsk, we had an opportunity, as i indicated, to talk to russian speakers at every level right up from the governor on down to all the leaders in civil society, and the message was the same. Theres only one thing that prevents peace. Look, we have a very generous peace plan put forward by poroshenko here. The only thing that prevents it is the machinations of putin and his russian agents. Nah needs to stop. For that to stop, europe has to stand with the United States and so does asia and the rest of the International Community. And we have to go forward with the type of leverage that only putin will understand and respond to. Until we do that, he will continue to create this chaos. Mr. Chairman, its wolf blitzer in jerusalem. As we speak right now, the secretary of state john kerry is on his plane, flying to cairo, trying to get some sort of ceasefire. Is that doable right now . Do you have confidence in the secretary of state that he knows what hes doing right now . I have confidence that this ceasefire is the way to go. As you indicated, the arab league is on board, egypt is on board. Who isnt on board is hamas. I remember my discussions with you, i was in haifa, you were in jerusalem during the second lebanon war. And at that point in time there were hundreds of rockets coming into haifa. 600 people, israelis were in the hospital there in the trauma hospital where i had visited. I can tell you, if it wasnt for the iron dome, youd have much more serious casualties across israel today. So israel is going to take this opportunity as long as the rockets are being fired at it to try to go in and get the tunnels and suppress those launchers, but they cant stop until the rockets are no longer being launched, the rockets supplied by iran to hamas. For that to happen, you know, its going to take a negotiated ceasefire and thats the attempt right now that our secretary of state is involved in. Do you believe the israelis are overreacting right now . They are facing a lot of international condemnation. You see these awful pictures, the kids who have been killed in gaza, the civilians who have been made refugees. Has israel gone too far in your opinion, mr. Chairman . Oh, no, no. I think thats a mischaracterization. I have seen on the ground in these situations the way in which israel goes to the utmost length. They will put their soldiers in harms way in order, in order to try to minimize civilian casualties. Remember, what hamas is doing here. Its putting these rockets specifically, specifically in areas where they ask civilians to come and protect the rockets while their own commanders are under ground in bunkers. This is the thing that really makes me irate. The hamas commanders will go down in the bunkers and they will ask human shields to try to protect the rockets and then theyll light these rockets off and send them to tel aviv or jerusalem. This is unconscionable. Thats whats producing civilian casualties. Its not by intent. The intent here by hamas is to have civilian casualties. The intent by israel is to try to prevent it. Its just absolutely ironic that it is portrayed this way given the efforts that israel takes. Remember, 2,000 rockets have now been fired at tel aviv and at jerusalem and other cities in israel. What other countries would put up with that kind of conduct by hamas . Those rockets these longer range rockets all made by iran. Lets not forget irans contribution to this on going war. Again, if iran would quit sending the rockets to hamas, hamas wouldnt have the inventory to do this. Chairman royce, thanks for joining us on new day. Lets see what the secretary of state can do, if he can do anything to work with the egyptians, the Palestinian Authority and try to achieve a ceasefire thats badly, badly needed. Guys, back to you in new york. Thank you very much. Michaela is here with a look at some of your other headlines. Well get back to our top story immediately. Here are the headlines at this hour. A california man who told federal agents he was going to syria to join i. S. I. S. Will be arraigned. 20yearold adam dan ditch said he planned to help i. S. I. S. With anything they asked him to do and believed killing u. S. Soldiers was justified. He was arrested earlier this month before boarding a plane in orange county. Get ready to pay more for airport security. Starting today the tsa will add 5. 60 to every plane ticket. The previous charge was 2. 50. This increases part of a budget deal approved by congress to reduce the federal deficit. Scary video. A hot air balloon crashing into power lines in massachusetts over the weekend. You can see the bright flash, you can hear a loud buzzing sound come from the power lines. There were six people in the balloon at the time of the crash. Officials say fortunately they only suffered minor injuries. Coming up next on new day, secretary of state john kerry calling the mh 17 disaster a moment of truth for Vladimir Putin. How will the russians respond today . Well talk to the former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine. Former president bill clinton tried and failed to bring peace to the middle east. Cnns anna coren spoke exclusively to the president about the current conflict and other major issues as well. No rush, andy. Come on. With the chase mobile app you can get a lot done in a little amount of time from transferring funds wait a minute. Youve got to be kidding. Did you guys see that . That ball was out. To paying your coach for adding five Miles Per Hour to your serve. That ball wasnt in. 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Youre seeing whats happening here right now. This is what n a way we eve been waiting for. The osce is joined by dutch investigators. Theyre here, one, because they understand how to control a crime scene like this. Of course, they lost the most in terms of life on mh 17 and theyre here to identify their loved ones assuming they can find the bodies and are given proper access. Thats the problem. The man who just ran across is the member of a police force that had a very nasty reputation during the recent fighting in ukraine and kiev. When they showed up, very rough, weapons out, telling everybody to get out of the way and limiting access to the scene by the same people theyre supposed to be cooperating with. Thats the frustration going on now. On one hand, this is good. The experts are here, the people who lost so many of their countrymen are here. But at the same time theyre being restrained by very impressive military men. Again, the bare coot, arent just local militia. Theyre special police who are somewhat out casts in ukraine after recent fighting. They have taken up residents in donetsk and are part of the Security Force here. Well monitor the situation as long as it stays safe. This is amid reports that fighting has been renewed in do net dough netsing dough. William taylor, former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine. Do we have mr. Taylor . We do. Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much. Youve been hearing what im saying here. Help us understand this inconsistency where you have on one side, theres access and on the other side there is complete lockdown by very, very aggressive military. You know the special police, help us understand the dynamic going on here in terms of power and access. Well, what we see here is the russiansupported separatists. As you say, the bare coot which used to be in the Ukrainian Government that was expelled from that, is now just part of the separatist government, self declared government. They are responsible. The russiansupported separatists are responsible for the problem, they have been as you know, they have been part of the problem for the last several months. Its taken this tragedy, this tragedy of the shootdown of this civilian airliner to bring the worlds attention to whats been going on with the russian supported terrorists and separatists in southEastern Ukraine. Thats the real problem thats been going on for some time. Now we understand it. All right. But we understand it. Youve understood it for a long time. The u. S. Government has understood it for a long time. The question becomes how did we allow this to happen, we, the International Community, u. S. Led with western authorities. How did we allow the people in the sishlg of suspicion for bringing down the plane to be in charge of the crash sintd allow the bodies to languish for days, complete indignity. How is that allowed if this local selfappointed militia is so unimpressive in so many ways, why are we standing in the Current Situation that were in . Were standing in the Current Situation because we havent acted forcefully against the russian government, frankly. The russian haves been supporting these separatists for months. They have been supplying weapons for months. Now we know now we can see the weapons that theyve been providing and we see the training theyve been providing and the leadership theyve been providing. The russian officials out of the military intelligence, the Russian Military intelligence are leading in this. Weve seen this for some time. Weve taken some mild sanctions, mild actions in the form of pinpoint sanctions that have only been recently expanded. Its now up to us to lead the europeans in broader sanctions as well as a criminal investigation of those responsible for this tragedy. Youre a former ambassador, you a little more leeway to be candid here i would imagine. Let me ask you something and see if we can get a straight answer on it. This sounds like cheap talk not coming from you, sir, with all due respect. But the idea that we put any pressure on russia at all seems almost laughable. They literally smile here. This selfappointed local Prime Minister or whatever you want to call him, when told that the u. S. And western authorities arent happy with what goes on here, he smiles, shakes his head, like so what . For all the pictures and understanding of their training these people and your sanctions, it has done nothing. Isnt that the truth . Thats the truth. But also the truth is that it doesnt matter what those separatists say. Those are thugs. They are selfappointed thugs, mainly criminals, thugs, drunkards as weve seen. They are irrelevant. Whats relevant is the support coming across the border from russia into southEastern Ukraine. Thats what has to stop. Mr. Putin can close off that border. Thats what we needs to do. He has a choice, either double down supporting these thugs, these criminals, these separatists or he can disavow them and cut off the supply and seal that border. Its really up to mr. Putin, not up to the thugs that youre talking to there in southEastern Ukraine. To this point its pretty clear hes chosen to be evasive, hes chosen plausible deniability in his involvement in this. The evidence is overwhelming. Secretary kerry was very clear. The International Community has seen all of the evidence. Its mounting daily. He can no longer avoid mr. Putin can no longer avoid this. He has to make a decision. Double down or disavow. With those two options, double down or disavow, where is the u. S. Role in this . You say the United States, the International Community has not reacted forcefully enough with russias involvement here. What should be done in the most immediate sense, the first step today, what more can be done if sanctions to this point havent forced him to choose the correct path, if you will . The sanctions have not been broad enough or deep enough or harsh enough. So the sanctions that mr. Obama that president obama announced last wednesday are a beginning. They need to go further. The europeans need to go further. We need to push them to go further. In the u. N. The russians will be further isolated today. Thats clear. The french are about to sell the russians two Weapons Systems, naval Weapons Systems, aircraft carriers, essentially. We should buy those. We should not let them go to the russians. We should buy them from the french. There are ways that we could do this. Reporter buy them from the french . Why isnt the answer to use your political leverage that supposedly the u. S. Should have to tell the french dont sell the russians Weapons Systems when theyre obviously using them to equip people doing things that are supposedly anti thet cal to humanity. If you look at syria and where i am right now, and if russia is in control, theyre basically allowing the dead who have nothing to do with this conflict to swelter in the sun, their bodies have been here for days. You say we have to have tougher sanctions. It just seems, mr. Former ambassador, that its a hollow rationale, it hasnt been enough. It hasnt been enough. There has to be a better answer. Do you believe anything better will be coming or is it going to be more of the same . I do think better is going to come. I think this is a gamechanger for the europeans. The europeans have been able to look away and think of this as a small little conflict that doesnt really affect them. Now it affects them. The europeans are going to take serious action. When i say buy these miss centrals from the french they are about to pay a large fine. We should reduce that fine a little bit so they can send them to the United States instead of sending them to russia. The french will be willing to do this. The dutch are so angry they are going to take steps. The british are calling for the same thing. We should leave that. We should make it clear that mr. Putin is going to pay an enormous price if he doubles down on those separatists and he needs to disavow them and close that border. Reporter mr. Taylor, former ambassador to the ukraine, i have to tell you theyre not here, only the dutch are here. And luckily we have the international monitors for violence who are here. Hes going to join us right now and talk to us. Thank you very much. Do you want to talk to michael now or wait until after the break . Let me know. Were going to go to a quick break here. When we come back, the head of the local monitoring mission, really the only set of fair and fresh eyes on the ground that weve had to date in this situation. Well be right with him after the break. Stay with us. Moderate to severe Crohns Disease is tough, but ive managed. I got to be pretty good at managing my symptoms, except that managing my symptoms was all i was doing. When i finally told my doctor, he said my crohns was not under control. He said humira is for adults like me who have tried other medications but still experience the symptoms of moderate to severe Crohns Disease. And that in clinical studies, the majority of patients on humira saw significant symptom relief. And many achieved remission. [ female announcer ] humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. If youre still just managing your symptoms, ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, remission is possible. Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. I voted for culture. With a k. how are you . I voted for plausible deniability. I didnt kill her, david. And i voted for decisive military action. Xfinity presents the peoples hotlist where you choose this summers top 100 shows and movies. And all you have to do is watch with xfinity on demand. Now through july 23rd. Vote welcome back to new day. As we speak, secretary of state john kerry heading back to the middle east to try again for a ceasefire between israel and hamas. Bill clinton tried but failed to bring peace to the middle east when he was in the oval office. Cnn spoke with the former president exclusively about the current conflict. Anna coren is live. Its been a fascinating few days traveling with president clinton as hes visits the projects that the Clinton Foundation is involved in. Its doing amazing work, impacting thousands of lives. Apart from the charity, we also spoke about his wife, hillary, whether shes going to run for president in 2016 as well as global issues that obviously capturing headlines at the moment. Notably the crisis in the middle east and the violence, escalating violence in the gaza. This is a subject that is very close to the president s heart because, of course, he tried to reach a Peace Agreement with the israelis and the palestinians while he was in office and failed. Lets take a listen. Israel launched a ground offensive in gaza. You said israel is isolating itself from World Opinion by failing to clinch a peace deal with the palestinians. This is a conflict that you werent able to resolve when you were in office. What makes you think its possible now . Well, i think its possible partly because at some point you get tired of doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result. Its crazy. But i think that and i hope that this will lead to everybody doing soul searching and trying to get back to the baseline issue of a Peace Agreement. Now, with hamas involved, it raises a different issue which is that theres no way the israelis are going to give up the west bank and agree to a state unless hamas agrees to give up violence and recogni recognize they wont do it. Thats sort of a nonstarter. And i think it should be. I think you cant just have a oneway peace. You have both sides that have to give up what the other side most objects to. Do you see that happening any time soon . I dont see it. But i feel that it could happen. I know Prime Minister netanyahu could make a peace that a majority of the israelis would support. They have said over and over again, sf he says that this is good for their security, they would support it. Reporter president clinton is traveling through Southeast Asia on his way to australia to speak at the international aids conference. A number of researchers due to attend were killed on board mh 17. We need to wait to make any definitive statements until we know exactly what happened. But it was sickening thinking about those people being knocked out of the sky. Its pretty tough. Do you believe that the u. S. And International Community did enough to try and stop the fighting considering that this advanced military technology appears to have landed in the hands of Russian Military forces . The answer to the question is yes, but it doesnt mean i think we did enough. Theres another question, though. And that is whether we could have then and we can now give the this new Ukrainian Government the kind of economic support they need for the course theyve laid out. Reporter we met with the former president in vietnam where his Foundation Works to provide better access to medication for children living with hiv aids. He has a special connection with this country. Back in 2000 he became the first u. S. President to visit since the end of the vietnam war. And while in office, he lifted the longstanding trade embargo. There is so much painful history attached to this country, and yet as president , you redefine u. S. Relations with vietnam helping to transform this country. How does this rate as one of your achievements . Well, for me personally, its way up there. 20 years ago this year we dropped the embargo. 20 years ago next year we normalized relations. We probably dont have a stronger ally in asia now than vietnam. I think the per capita income in vietnam was Something Like 300 a year when we started 20 years ago, and now its just off the charts. So its really wonderful. Every time i come here i pinch myself almost to see whats happening. But it changed peoples lives. Im glad we did it and im glad its worked out. Im glad i had the support of so many Vietnam Veterans including secretary of state kerry and senator john mccain. We had right across the political spectrum. We were doing this together. Reporter in hanoi clinton visited an aids orphanage where he saw firsthand children benefiting from his foundations work. When we came here first in 2006 every one of these children was hiv positive. They would have eventually died of aids. They had no future, and so to see them now healthy and alive, it is just amazing. Its far more than anything i could say justified the way i try to live my life now. I love d my life in politics. I loved it. But the difference now is i can see the personal human implications of the decisions were making. Reporter clinton was also in indonesia still rebuilding nearly ten years after the devastating tsunami that killed more than 200,000 people. Banda aceh was one of the hardest hit areas. Its almost impossible to believe that ten years ago there was literally nothing. And the power of mother nature. Reporter he was there shortly after the disaster as a u. N. Special envoy working alongside former president george bush senior. It was an unusually good reconstruction. After president bush and i finished doing our work, the u. N. Asked me to be the coordinator for their efforts. I did that for a couple of years. Spending time with children at a local mosque. Even as news of undocumented children crossing the u. S. Border is in the headlines back home. President obama believes they have to be deported. At the same time he wants to overhaul the immigration system. What is the answer . First of all, in general i support what hes trying to do. Theres no question that a lot of those young people were sent to the United States because they were told by the countries they came from that once they got here, if they were kids, they could stay. So weve just got to work through all this. I think in general what the president proposed is good, but we need to pass comprehensive Immigration Reform legislation. And i hope he will get this money hes asked for because some of these kids may be eligible to stay under our laws because of the circumstances they face back home. The question on everybodys lips, is hillary clinton, your wife going to run for president in 2016 . Can you answer that . No. I dont know. This has been the first free time shes had in a long time. We reached a point in our lives when we think you really shouldnt run for office if you dont have a clear idea of what you can do and a unique contribution you can make and you can outline that. Im proud of her. Whatever she does is fine with me. Ill support whatever she does. What is your advice . She hasnt asked me yet. Really . No, no. Let me ask you, what sort of president would she be . Oh, shed be really good. Shes the ablist Public Servant ive ever worked with. Its a decision that only she can make and im not going to try to jump the gun, and if she decides not to do it, ill be happy to. When i left the white house and hillary went into the senate in new york, i told her, i said for 26 years you made a lot of sacrifices for my public life. So ill give you the next 26 years. And if im still around, then well fight about what were going to do after that. Were a little over halfway through the second 26 years. And whatever she wants is fine with me. Certainly a fascinating conversation with one of the most charismatic people in the world. John, i did not get the scoop on whether hillary is going to run in 2016. But i certainly got a sense from the former president that he would like his wife to run. Of course, they would be making history with hillary becoming the first female president of the United States and the first husband and wife team to lead the free world. But for now, john, i think were going to have to keep on guessing. Back to you. We certainly appreciate you trying. Anna coren from jakarta. Cnn obtained new satellite pictures of the debris field where flight 17 went down. What can these new pictures tell us about the jets final moments . Well analyze them before the best experts around next. This is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. During the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. At night and when its cloudy, we use more natural gas. This ensures we can produce Clean Electricity whenever our customers need it. 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First of all, the temperature here is so high and thats why its been so undignified for the bodies to be out here for days. We saw what we hope were the last of them just transferred. Its also overheating our equipment. Thats why its been difficult to come to you. We can also report that the fighting has resumed in donetsk, the local train station has been shelled. There are civilian casualties. Artillery is being used we believe by ukraine authorities to reclaim the city. Well find out what happens and act accordingly as the situation changes. The only good set of International Eyes on the ground right now to oversee everything thats been happening here and not happening is the osce, an International Body for security and cooperation. The head of sit a man named michael, the head of their communications. Weve been in contact with them and trying to follow their efforts to monitor the situation which has been met with great resistance by the local militia forces. We just spoke to him as they came through with dutch authorities to look at this situation. I asked how it was going. Here is what he said. Its going well. Weve been on the ground here for three months, there are 275 of us in ten locations in ukraine. It so happened we had a team here in Eastern Ukraine. We brought more to boost our numbers. Up until now its been very difficult on us in this region because of the fighting going on. We had maybe ten people here. Weve now doubled or tripled that number wen we heard of this the tragic incident. Weve been with you here from the beginning and we know difficulty to get access, local militias, the different layers that who surround the selfappointed Prime Minister. How difficult have they made it on you to do a Fair Assessment . Because weve been here for three months we know them. We held talks when our eight colleagues were kidnapped and were returned. We didnt have to start from ground zero, land here and establish relationships. On the first day we arrived here, we did come to the site. It was a bit chaotic. That got better the next day and yesterday and today. Today we have three dutch forensic subjects with us and theyre getting pretty much unfettered access. Reporter listen, michael has a very difficult job. He has to keep relations to this selfappointed government in this newly appointed republic of donetsk. We know the dutch were kept outside the seen. Hopefully they will get access to the they never advised anything and michael even referred to the fact hes a monitor. Hes not somebody in the business of advising someone how to conduct this scene. It is very difficult here. Now with the renewed fighting, the one good thing is, the local militia men have left because theyre concerned about the fighting, so theyre not here harassing us right now. Back to you in new york, well keep you apprised of the security situation here because, again, fighting has been restarted here. We believe ukraine is trying to take back control of the major city of donetsk here in Eastern Ukraine. All happening in real time, breaking news and well be watching it with you, chris. In that interview, really highlights the very delicate and dangerous balance that the osce, the monitors, have to strike. They have to be there because they need to monitor the situation. But they are trying to get the truth out as much as they can. A job that needs to get done. Their safety on the line, only so much they can do. Thats right, john. Well take another break. Coming up next on new day, can new satellite images tell anyone anything new about the mh17, how it was brought down, how it was blown out of the sky and brought to the ground . Well analyze the pictures and see if anything links the attack to pro russian rebels. At every ford dealership, youll find the works its a complete checkup of the services your vehicle needs. So prepare your car for any road trip by taking it to an expert ford technician. Because no matter your destination good maintenance helps you save at the pump. Get our multipoint inspection with a Synthetic Blend Oil change, tire rotation, Brake Inspection and more for 29. 95 or less. Get a complete vehicle checkup only at your ford dealer. Were changing the way we do business, with startup ny. Weve created tax free zones throughout the state. And startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. Thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. No property tax. No business tax. And no sales tax. Which means more growth for your business, and more jobs. Its not just business as usual. See how new york can help your business grow, at startup. Ny. Gov welcome back to new day. Cnn obtained new satellite pictures of the area where mh17 made impact in Eastern Ukraine. What can these images tell investigators searching for concrete answers to exactly what happened . Joining us for a closer look, cnns safety analyst david susi, former faa inspector and author of why planes crash. Lets get right to it and take a look. Youve been pouring over the images. Lets try to get to this is the broader picture we want to look at. So our viewers can understand, youre teaching me this, this is the primary crash site, right . Correct. There is a secondary crash site down here, which well zoom into. This broader image, what do you take from this . Something important to look at here, as you fly over, a lot of the first part of an accident, finding where it is, dont have that issue here. But you all the way over here, more than two miles from the actual impact, there are debris in this field. This far away. There is debris in this field, that far away. So what were looking at here is the trajectory, which way did the aircraft come in, did this debris happen in the air . Or did it happen as it hit the ground and the debris threw this is too far for debris to fly from the location. This tells us it did break up in the air. You have some breakup in the air t make me wonder why we saw the huge explosion that yes. That plume of smoke when it made impact. Thats an important point, kate. It did not explode in the air. As we noted originally, there wasnt a trail of smoke going to the location. What thael that tells us is the missile disabled the aircraft because the tail is down here. If the tail is down here, we have to think about did the tail come off in the air at 35,000 feet. No, it did not. If it did, it would be much further away. So this is this is the primary impact site. Correct. What do investigators glean from this . How does an image far away help that maybe you dont see close up on the ground . From far away, it gives you perspective as what happened at 30,000 feet. It tells you what happened up here. This is going to tell you what happened once it hit the ground. Really important note, look how close it is to this little village. Absolutely. We could have had many fatalities on the ground had this been another 100 feet the other way. This area that looks almost white, what does this indicate . What this is, these are metal i dont want to cover them up, but these are actually metal molten metal. Thats how hot this was. When this explosion occurred, this is the Center Section of the aircraft. Why is this important to investigators . It just tells us so much about what might have happened in the air. Because as this gets in a criminal investigation, a war crime, there has to be proof and there has to be a chain of custody of all of this information and of all the parts and pieces. You see the guy carrying this orange device that they think is the flight data recorder. Well, that is going to be really damaging in a case because theyre going to say, it went from here to here, maybe somebody planted this thing, but in an actual investigation, when there is professionals there, there is no question about chain of custody because it is documented from the very beginning to the very end and thats my biggest concern here is if youre going to put pressure on putin to hold the people accountable for who did this are or if we put pressure on him, as accountability to him, without chain of custody, it is not going to be possible. And also from the satellite images, you can see where things were because there is a potential that some of this evidence could be moved before investigators can get on the ground, why these satellite images really teach us a lot and what has happened here. David, thank you very, very much. David susi sticking with us. Were continuing to follow the breaking news out of ukraine. Satellite images and right from the ground, in ukraine, and also recovering big news out of the middle east. Lets get right to it. We have breaking news live from the final resting place of mh17 and hostile area of Eastern Ukraine. The u. S. And the world is ramping up pressure on Vladimir Putin. New evidence as to who shot the plane down and the possible attempts to cover it up. The crash site controlled by rebel fighters. 298 bodies now in limbo. Their memories and dignity at the mercy of a larger battle. We have hard questions for the rebel leader. Please answer the allegation. As families and the world demand answers and action. Im wolf blitzer live from jerusalem. Breaking news. The deadliest day for both sides in the conflict. More than a dozen Israeli Soldiers killed. Two of them americans, and 90 palestinians killed. The death toll rises. Now secretary of state john kerry en route to the region to stop the bloodshed. And now this, hamas claims they captured an israeli soldier. A special edition of new day starts right now. We do have breaking news here from this hostile region in Eastern Ukraine. This is the final resting place of mh17 that you see over my shoulder. The news here this morning involves what is going on with this investigation, or tllack thereof. We have reports of heavy artillery fire, shelling going on, there is active fighting at the airport. Ukraine has put out reports that it is trying to retake checkpoints around the city. We know there are casualties. We dont know how many fires have broken out. There is a lot of signs of explosion. The local militia here have left, which is probably a sign of retreating to the source of that violence. So we will take you through that. Back here, though, so in the middle of all of this fighting you have mh17, it crashed in the middle of a battle zone. A place scarred by violence and now stained with the blood of 298 victims, who had nothing to do with this conflict. A scene so raw and so unmanaged that the first instinct when we came here was to say a prayer for the victims and some dignity afforded to them at some point before we even started reporting. There is a lot to tell you about and show you. Let me get you back to new york for what else is going on. Kate, john . Absolutely, chris. Getting back to you on the ground in ukraine in a moment. Well talk about the other big story were following out of israel. Wolf blitzer is on the ground in jerusalem. He spoke with the israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the escalating violence. The political tensions are rising over the attack on flight 17. The russian president Vladimir Putin pushing back against criticism that he supports the armed rebels accused of shooting down that jet. He is now accusing western nations of exploiting the tragedy. The u. S. Says there is growing proof the russians trained and equipped the rebels who allegedly shot down that plane. Chris . All right, john, thank you very much. There is no question that there is a big raging debate about who did this and mounting evidence. Later on, well have an interview with the selfappointed Prime Minister here, the man who would be in charge of those who may have shot down this plane and he has very defiant answers to the hard questions that we will put to him. But, again, the main story is about the dignity of the victims. And when the militia just left because of the restarting of the fighting, people just walked right in to the zone, whether media or locals, theyre all around this crime scene, who knows about the chain of custody of what is needed in here. The dignity of the dead left for days in the hot sun here. Who knows what answers are being lost by the minute. A show of force by those controlling mh17s crash site, the devastation seen here surrounded by hostility as those in control are the very people suspected of shooting the plane down over Eastern Ukraine. Startling Satellite Photos show acres of ground scorched by the explosion at the point of impact. On the ground, were told hundreds of bodies removed at the hands of government emergency workers along with a group of coal miners, inexperienced, but allowed in by prorussian rebels. The remains of more than 250 loaded into two refrigerated trains. The Ukrainian Government negotiating with militants for the bodies to be transported, with no information about when they will be identified or are where theyll end up. The scene here exposed, fueling International Concerns of tampered evidence. You can tell this piece hit, rolled and was moved and thats going to be a really big distinction for investigators. Russian president Vladimir Putin insisted a team of International Experts conduct work on the site to ensure security. Rebel leaders claim to have the planes cockpit and voice data recorders which may hold critical information about mh17s last moments. An audio intercepts released by the Ukrainian Government, the alleged commander says moscow is very interested in the black boxes, and urges his subordinate to find them. Cnn cannot independently confirm the authenticity of the audio. Meanwhile, u. S. Intelligence points to mounting evidence of russias involvement, including evidence that prorussian rebels secretly moved a heavy arsenal of weapons into place days before the crash. We have a video showing the a launcher moving back through a particular area there out into russia with missing at least one missing missile on it. So we have enormous sort of input about this, which points fingers. Reporter this is that video posted by Ukraines Interior Ministry of a buk missile launcher heading back into russia, suggesting it had conducted a launch, according to the u. S. Embassy in kiev. I spoke with the rebel Prime Minister about those accusations. The belief of the western community and of ukraine is that a Russian Missile brought down this plane. And there is suspicion it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that . Translator i dont know what to say because the World Community doesnt want to hear it. We had no reason to take down the plane and ukraine had this reason to destroy our government. We had a lot more questions for this selfappointed Prime Minister, well play you that portion of the interview later in the show. Lets bring in fareed zakaria. Obviously, youre well aware of what is going on with the politics and the violence in this country right now. As you heard us report, it is renewed. Reports of civilian casualties as ukraine says it is trying to take back checkpoints on the outside of donetsk. Curious timing for them, dont you think, in the middle of trying to deal with mh17 and what has to be an embarrassment for them as well, theyre not in control here, shelling resumes, civilian casualties going on. What do you think the strategy is there . Your reporting on this is fascinating. We didnt have real knowledge of that until now. What it could suggest is that the government of ukraine, the government in kiev, has begun an offensive to try to take control of this part of ukraine as you keep pointing out, people need to understand. This part of ukraine is not under the control of the government in kiev. It is under the control of the pro russian separatists. One of the things that kiev government has kept insisting on is that they need to get control of their own country. They may have seen this as an opportunity moment because the rebels are on the defensive, they understand the world is watching them and perhaps most importantly that Vladimir Putin is on the defensive. This would not be a moment where you would imagine russia would be sending in advisers, streaming across the border at night, sending in heavy equipment, heavy machinery. It may well be that the Ukrainian Government decided this is the moment to act, and as you say, these thugs have fled the crime scene, which suggests that theyre going to reinforce their comrades in donetsk itself. Only problem with them fleeing, while it is good for us, is that now anybody can traipse through this crime scene again, an ongoing problem. Two questions for you, fareed. One, if russia is so in control, why would russia why would Vladimir Putin allow this shameful act to go on thats behind me right now . And the indignity of all of these bodies. And the other question is, a lot of talk from the western world about now is the time, now we must press, nobody is here, fareed. There are no representatives from the western world except the osce, which is an International Monitoring group. Nobody is on the ground. Where is everybody if they care so much . Well, great questions. On the second one, as you know, the problem is the place is dangerous as you have been pointing out. It has been very dangerous until really a few hours ago and my guess is people are trying to figure out exactly when they can go caught creating an incident or some kind of violence. But to your broader question, i think it is very important for us it try to figure out what is going on in answer to your question, why did putin let this happen. This strikes me as a special op gone awry. Putin seemed like a genius because what he did was got the special Operations Forces without uniforms, with no discernible trace to russia to wrest crimea away from ukraine in an exit. He can then say i dont know what youre talking about, i had nothing to do with this, we had nothing to do with this, these were locals. That looked great. Here you see the dark side to that those kind of kgb operations. Youre using rogues, mercenaries, thugs, using people with limited training and my guess is what happened is this operation went awry, the russians may not have, you know, had as much control and direction over it, though they clearly trained these forces, and now everyone is scrambling and perhaps these locals are not listening to their russian handlers or masters as carefully as we think. But it is a predictable consequence of trying to do this kind of special ops Foreign Policy where your goal is to produce chaos on the cheap. What is the gain for the russian president Vladimir Putin. Does he have the guts . I think thats what it might take to stand up and say, yes, these were the prorussian separatists. Can he do that . I dont think he can. Hes locked himself into a corner. If you watch russian tv and ive done it a little bit of it with people who can help guide me through the language, theyre in an alternate universe. The russians are hearing a story about how the Ukrainian Military is responsible because this happened in ukraine, omitting the fact that the part of ukraine it happened in is not controlled by the Ukrainian Military. Theyre hearing the Ukrainian Military was trying to assassinate Vladimir Putin, trying to shoot his plane and missed and hit the civilian jetliner. Thats the context in which that those statements that putin made have to be considered. He is defending russia against the evil west, defending russia against this evil Ukrainian Government. We often talked about, throughout this ukrainian crisis, how you often said he is maintained plausible deniability in all of the machinations. He can double down in the path hes been taking or turn the corner and help. Whiching to choose and how does the u. S. Influence that at all at this point . I dont think there is any evidence hes turning around. Hes very popular. They created this alternative narrative of russian nationalism, which is not really based on reality. It is not based on reality. But very few you would be surprised, russia is a big country, television is the only method that connects the country together. So there are newspapers in russia that are saying different things, but not on tv since it is all state controlled. I think that what the west has to do, what president obama has to do is seize the opportunity and there are two things. The first is, push for the Ukrainian Government to be able to take control of its own country. That doesnt solve every problem in the shortterm, but it is in the long run, you cannot have a government that is not in control of its own territory. The second is to get the europeans to go along with stiffer sanctions. Theyre meeting in the next couple of days, that is on the table, you know. I had a few meetings with people like chancellor merkel and other leaders. Theyre not where the United States is, they are more reluctant, theyre more dependent on russia for energy, but they understand in kind of behavior in the 21st century has to have some consequences. If this doesnt change minds of the leaders of western europe, what is . If you have 298 innocent people who have been killed, and youve got fingers pointing, you know, really directly to russia at this point, what is going to change it . I dont know what. Think about the point chris is making about the dignity of the dead and so many of them coming from this one small proud country, you know. I havent done the math, but if you were to have 190 people in a small country like the netherlands, i think it is 7 million, 8 million people, multiply that many fold to get a sense of how Many Americans would die. Fareed, stay with us. Wolf blitzer is in israel for us. Hes got he spoke sat down with the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a lot of questions on that crisis as well. Wolf . Kate, thanks very much. In the middle east, the war and i call it a war, because it really is a war between israel and hamas in gaza. They seem to be expanding the offensive inside the gaza strip. Sunday was by far the deadliest day of the conflict. And despite the death of innocent palestinians, hes strongly defending israels military operation. Some of your cabinet ministers think the only way to do that is to reoccupy gaza, which you evacuated from and gave it up back in 2005. Do you support reoccupying gaza . I support taking whatever action is necessary to stop this insane situation. Just imagine. Imagine what israel is going through. Imagine that 75 of the u. S. Population is under rocket fire. And they have to be in bomb shelters within 60 to 90 seconds. Im not just talking about new york. New york, washington, chicago, detroit, san francisco, miami. You name it. Thats impossible. You cant lift like that. I think we have to bring back, restore back reasonable sustained security and take whatever action is necessary. But that includes possibly reoccupying gaza. A lot of your military planners are afraid of what they would call a quagmire, dangerous quagmire. Nobody wants to go to Excessive Military lengths. What is happening here is excessive. Theyre not only targeting our cities, deliberately firing thousands of rockets, already fired 2,000 rockets in the last few days on our cities. You can imagine this. It is not only that, and they wanted to kill as many of our 6 million israelis who are targeted as they could. They havent succeeded, not for lack of trying. We developed with american help and i appreciate the help that president obama and the u. S. Congress have given us, but some of the missiles perforate and hit our schools and we have to stop that. But in addition to the rockets, they have got now terror tunnels that they build in palestinian homes in gaza, they penetrate under ground into israeli territory, terrorists pop up there, try to murder civilians, kidnap israelis, as they did with gilad shalit. As we speak now, the secretary of state john kerry is on his way to cairo, should be landing in a few hours. W well see if he can make some progress toward achieving a ceasefire. Back to you. That was an important moment to be speaking with the Prime Minister himself. Thank you so much for bringing that to us. Lets look at more of your headlines. Well get back to both stories in a moment. Here are the local headlines. State side. Cooler temperatures today could help fire crews that are battling 21 uncontrolled wildfires in Washington State and in oregon. Nearly a million acres have already burned. 150 homes have been destroyed. Were told one person died, trying to save his home. Officials tell us some 35 hot shot crews are battling the flames. They hope for Better Weather to help with that. There is a concern about air quality there as well. Another violent weekend in chicago. 40 people shot, four of them fatally. One of those killed, an 11yearold girl attending a slumber party. More than half of the shootings happened between friday evening and early saturday morning. Texas governor rick perry is expected to announce today hes deploying a thousand National Guard troops to help with border protection. There has been an influx, massive influx of Central American immigrants crossing over from mexico. Speaking in iowa, governor perry says if president obama cannot act fast enough to secure the border, he will. 60 minutes pave the hour. Those are your headlines. Next up for us on new day, mounting evidence that Russian Missiles brought down mh17. Well speak to congressman mike rogers about the latest evidence. And chris goes one on one with the leaders of the pro russian rebels in Eastern Ukraine. Youll hear who he says is responsible for shooting down flight 17. The average person will probably eat something or drink something that is acidic on a daily basis. Those acids made over time wear the enamel. A lot of patients will not realize whats happening to the enamel. Once its gone, its gone away for good. I recommend pronamel. Its designed specifically to help strengthen the teeth. Pronamel will actually help to defend the enamel from the acids in our diet. If you know that there is something out there that can help, why not start today . Start with the best writing experience. . Make it incredibly thin. Add an adjustable kickstand, a keyboard, a usb port, and the freedom of touch. And, of course, make it run microsoft office, with the power and speed to do real work. Introducing surface pro 3. The tablet that can replace your laptop. Welcome back to new day. U. S. Officials say the evidence is clear on this point, mh17 was blown out of the sky by prorussian separatists. Secretary of state john kerry, he says the United States has been tracking a major flow of russian weapons into Eastern Ukraine for months now. The russian president , though, blaming the west for exploiting this tragedy. So what more is the u. S. Going to do and will the u. S. Call putins bluff . Lets bring in congressman mike rogers. Chris and wolf will be joining us in this conversation as well. Thank you for your time. There is so much to get through. Were in the middle of so many crises to be quite honest. I think it has been suggested as much by the administration, but to be clear, are you prepared at this point to say that russia is responsible for the missile that brought down flight 17 . Well, they certainly have blood on their hands at the very least. So this is a very sophisticated weapons system, it takes maintenance, really almost on a daily basis. And it takes an intense amount of training. This is not a fire and forget kind of a weapons system. There is a lot that goes into it, to target an aircraft, especially at that height. So it would lend one to believe, given everything that we know about the weapons flow back across from russia into Eastern Ukraine that they at least had some part of training, maybe even supervision of this particular weapons system. And thats whats so concerning. I think the president excuse me, president putin has lost his plausible deniability that were just not involved in Eastern Ukraine. I think that story is gone. And i think this is a real new day in his culpability and what happened. Chairman, were thrilled to have you with us. You have access to intelligence here that most of us dont get to see. I understand you cant tell us everything you have seen. You say russia at the least has blood on their hands, blood, were talking about now, of 298 innocent souls, nothing to do with the conflict right now in ukraine. If russia does have this blood on their hands, if the russian leader has this blood on his hands, what should the u. S. Do about it today . Well, i think there is several things we ought to do. You have to look at this wholistically, why putin believes he can continue to do what hes doing. He believes no one cares enough to get involved at the level that would push him back. He spent the last ten years trying to modernize this military and been successful in doing it. He has spent the last ten years modernizing his special forces and as they will call them in ukraine, the little green men, the folks who are operating in Eastern Ukraine, fermenting chaos and supporting the rebels. This is the time for the United States, i think, to finally bring in europe in a very wholesome way, on sanctions. We have led the way, give the president credit last week, for stepping up on the financial his financial sanctions, especially using banks, arms dealers, those kinds of things, very important. We need the rest of europe with us to make this important. So i would do that, bring them along. I would show some strength here. I would renounce that were going to move forward with Missile Defense plans, both in poland and the czech republic. We need to sit down and talk to our allies and i would do fairly significant operations in poland, just the way we used to do in germany. They called it reforger when i was in the military. You have the opportunity to show putin were serious about standing with our nato partners to push back against this blatant aggressive behavior and the longer we let this go, the more mistakes like this that are going to happen and the massacre of more innocent civilians. Thats why we need to take certain action today. Certain action, but certain action today, i think, is really the operative word. Thats what john was trying to get at. Were four days into this absolute tragedy. What youre talking about bringing european leaders along, doing more military operations, joint operations in poland and so on and so forth, that seems longterm, that seems look a wholistic aapproach, but it doesnt seem like it will get the rebels to back down today. Is there anything the United States can do to change the situation on the ground right now . You know, being aggressive in those announcements and putting date certains on our pushing forward Missile Defense, thats something you can do today that sends a re clear message. Remember why putin is doing so much of this. Hes trying to prevent ukraine as he did the nation state of georgia, when he invaded georgia, to keep them out of nato. Well, he succeeded. He succeeded in georgia and now succeeding in ukraine. Thats why this is so important. His we need to change his calculus here. Thats the first step. The second step is we need to be more aggressive about providing the kinds of things that Ukraine Military and Intelligence Services are asking for. Better shared intelligence, better training, which means we can robustly train their special forces and others to be more impactful against the rebels. And give them the kinds of Weapons Systems they need, not like the russians are giving, tanks, and antiaircraft missiles, but the kind of weapons they need to be effective against the rebels in a way we can do that very quickly. And that all needs to happen all at the same time. Cant just do a one off or a one day here and one day there, which is what we have been doing. It is in effective. It doesnt change putins calcul calculus. This is about making him change his mind about how aggressive he wants to be, in Eastern Ukraine. Well, mr. Chairman, it is chris cuomo in ukraine. Where were standing now, it makes it very clear that mr. Putin hasnt had a change of mind. Let me ask you two quick things. Do you have intelligence to confirm that ukraine did not shoot down this plane because obviously the allegation here in ukraine by the selfappointed Prime Minister is that ukraine had access to the russian weapons as well. Can you shoot that down, excuse the pun, as a theory . Right. So what the analysts will say is that the nation state of ukraine does have these sa11s, so so sophisticated antiaircraft missiles. There is nothing definitive and certain yet. But the evidence is mounting that it was, a, separatists involved, and, b, that maybe even the russians had a greater role in the actual operation of this system. Remember, very sophisticated, takes lots of training, lots of maintenance, lots of solutions, understanding, in order to reach its target. As you know, you dont have to be the chairman of the senate of the House Intelligence Committee to understand that this is a hot area, the fighting has been resumed here. It is going on right now as we speak. But the u. S. Sends a lot of people into hot areas. Not just troops, but, you know, u. S. Aid organizations and the like, investigative types. They push the u. N. To get involved in a lot of situations. Why is no one here, congressman rogers . Why hasnt the u. S. Stepped in days in or getting western partners why is no one here at mh17 yet . Thats a great question. For those of us who have been concerned about why the United States isnt playing a more robust role in supporting the Ukrainian Government, we have been asking the same question. We have been asking this for month, knowing the more this goes on, the more chaos that is allowed to ensue, the more weapons that russia is allowed to pour in to ukraine, there is going to be some civilian deaths that are unconscionable. We have seen that. And so now i hope this is the catalyst that gets us more involved in supporting the Ukrainian Government to push back on putins ukrainian disaster. And so in order to do that, i think the we have to rally our european friends and listen, those relationships have been frayed between the United States and europe. They need to be repaired and need to be repaired immediately so we can have a unified front on sanctions and other things in ukraine and, again, we can do that by leading the way on these intelligence packages, training packages. We should have had investigators on the ground with our european friends, with the netherlands, to help them in this investigation. We have some of the best crash investigators in the world. We should have had folks there already. And we need to, again, we need to continue to push so we send a signal to putin, youre not going to get away with this. In jerusalem, you speak about strengthening u. S. AntiMissile Systems in europe. Here in israel, that iron dome antiMissile System has worked very well, almost 90 . Israeli military says accuracy, some 2,000 rockets and missiles have come in from hamas in gaza and causing relatively minor damage in part because of the iron dome. Here is the question. What is the major intelligence lesson for the u. S. , from what has happened here in israel over the past two weeks . Well, clearly the Missile Defense systems work. And theyre worth our investment and theyre worth deployment. Again, a lot of this is discouraging certainly to those rocketeers in gaza firing the missiles because they dont have a successful hit rate. It is not because theyre not trying to kill civilians in a huge and aggressive way. They are. But between iron dome and i think the israeli position theyll try to defend themselves and get after these missile nests, if you will, in gaza, has been successful. And it is a twopronged approach, which tells you every problem, wolf, needs to have this multilayered approach. You cant just do one. You cant just build a Missile System. Thats not going to work in and of itself. Hugely successful, but wont work by itself. You have to have this other, i think operation to clean out those rocket nests all at the same time. And so i think this is an important lesson for us as we look at all of the challenges around the world. You cant just do press releases and announcements, put one type of a system in and hope it is done. It takes all of these things, all at the same time, including good decisions, up to these events, to try to avoid these kind of civilian disasters. Mike rogers, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, thanks as usual for joining us. Back to kate and john. Thanks so much, wolf. Next up for us on new day, tough questions for the prorussian rebel leader. How he responded to allegations that it was his people that shot down flight 17, his people now impeding the investigation. Dont miss his one on one talk with chris cuomo next. Dont just visit san francisco. water dripping and pipes clanging visit tripadvisor san francisco. soothing sound of a shower with millions of reviews, tripadvisor makes any destination better. Live in the same communities that we serve. People here know that our operations have an impact locally. Were using more natural gas vehicles than ever before. The trucks are reliable, thats good for business. But they also reduce emissions, and thats good for everyone. It makes me feel very good about the future of our company. Five things you need to know for your new day. The u. N. Security Council Voting today on a resolution condemning the attack of flight 17 and demanding access to the wreckage. Israel will not confirm or deny hamas kidnapped an israeli soldier. A dozen Israeli Soldiers and palestinians were killed in the deadliest day of the conflict. Fire crews fighting an uphill battle against 21 uncontrolled wildfires. They burned nearly a million acres and destroyed at least 150 homes. The tsa is increasing its security fee starting today. Youll pay 5. 60 for all flights. Congress approved this increase as part of the deal to reduce the deficit. And at number five, special day, veteran of the war in afghanistan will be awarded the medal of honor today. Army Staff Sergeant ryan pitts held off a surprise assault by the taliban in 2008 after being injured by a hand grenade. We update those five things to know, so be sure to visit newday. Cnn. Com for the latest. Now back to chris on the ground in Eastern Ukraine, giving us an idea of what is happening there as the investigation hopefully continues. Chris . War is whats going on here right now. It is active once again. Here is the latest information. Ukraine says that it regained control of the airport in donetsk and the road leading to it. They say theyre still in the active stage of their counterterrorism offensive that is going on here. There is heavy shelling. Residents are told to stay inside. Ninestory building near the rail station has been damaged. Again, reports of fire and a local market has been badly damaged. And local militants say two civilians have been killed. Now, local militants are under the control of a man who is a selfappointed Prime Minister. That means he was not elected. The president was elected by the entire country of ukraine. President poroshenko. However, hes the man in charge that would put him as the man in charge of the group of militants who may have shot down mh17. So we went to him and asked him the hard questions of this situation. He was defiant and he has his own theory about what happened. Heres the interview. Translator yes, it is true, so to speak. These items resemble the black boxes very much, but i cannot officially declare these are the black boxes. We do not have the experts that can say, yes, it is them and not anything else. So please answer the allegations, ukraine and western intelligence Authorities Say that there is a tweet, connected to the dpr, that said that your forces had taken control of a Russian Missile system that it took from ukraine. That they have intercepted conversations bragging that they had taken down the plane, so if you have the tweet, and the conversations, and the pictures that all point to your forces, how do you deny that it was your forces that brought down the plane . Translator it is very simple to disprove t all of the information that comes through the internet in my opinion is practically all lies. So the tweet is fake. The conversations that they say they intercepted are fake, the picture of the Missile System moving back across the border, is that fake as well . Translator i am telling you again, we have never been in possession of even a single buk system. I can list all of the means of defense that we have in our possession. All of these means of defense are capable of crashing only the low flying targets. There is a new report that russia is helping train your forces from a base not far from your border. Is that true . Is russia helping train your forces to fight against ukraine . Translator i will not comment on this question. You should ask russia this question. But why no comment, mr. Prime minister, when youre in control of donetsk, you would know whether theyre helping or not. Why wouldnt you tell me . Translator you know, a question that is addressing the Russian Federation i do not have the moral right to answer because at this moment i am speaking as a representative of the donetsk peoples republic. I consider it not quite right. The site, four days its been and bodies are still there, in the sun. You can imagine if it were your Family Member how you would feel about their body being out there for so long. Why were they allowed to stay there so long . Why werent the bodies taken care of and given dignity sooner . Translator you know, it is a fantastic story. The thing is that as soon as members of osce arrive, they notified us that if we start moving the bodies, we will be responsible. It got to the point where it resembled if not a horror movie, then black humor. When an old woman comes to our rebel groups, and says, look, there is a body of a headless man fell through the roof straight on to my bed, please take this man away, but the rebels say, no, because they are following instructions. Can you guarantee that International Help will be allowed in right away now . Translator yes, of course. We give these guarantees. We invite them here. And are waiting for them to be here as soon as possible. Understand why im asking, they call this the biggest crime scene in the world right now. 298 people were killed, maybe as part of a conflict they had nothing to do with. And those families had to see the bodies of their loved ones rotting in the sun. So theyre angry too. And it is hard to see it and thats why i wanted to ask you why you werent taking care of it sooner. People want answers about what happened up in the sky. Because those people as you know did not deserve to die. Translator i understand. I am trying to get rid of the fog of war. And want to make you understand that we were trying to push for these bodies to be collected as fast as possible. I want to give you one last opportunity to answer this question, the belief of the western community and of ukraine is that a Russian Missile brought down this plane. And there is suspicion that it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that . Translator what can i say . I have addressed this topic many times, that i am under the impression that myself and my colleagues are not being heard. Lets look at the real facts. Firstly, we didnt have any motive to target this plane. But for ukraine, our enemy, the crash of this plane is very beneficial. The motive would be the ongoing battle here, thats what everybody is focused on and trying to figure out how mh17 wound up becoming the latest casualty, literally, crash landing in the middle of a battlefield. Were looking at dark smoke coming from the hillsides here. The violence has resumed. We dont know which direction the shelling is going. And, kate, as i give it back to you, you know, the responsibility for the violence that brought down mh17 will be borne out over time by fact. But it is so important for this investigation to be done the right way, to get those facts, and the first question, the answer you heard, the selfappointed Prime Minister answering, he has what they believe to be the black boxes. Why did he take them . What is he going to do with them . He says hell turn them over to an independent body, but that has yet to happen. Kate . They cant get on the ground because of the violence, that those rebels are involved in. Difficult situation, but important answers that you were seeking. Chris, thank you so much, back to chris in a second. Coming up next on new day, dutch experts have arrived at the crash site of mh17. Youre seeing some video right there. How much access will they really get in the rebel controlled areas . Well talk to a counterterrorism expert about that coming up. The cadillac summer collection is here. During the cadillac summers best event, lease this all new 2014 cts for around 459 a month or purchase with 0 apr and make this the summer of style. Welcome back to new day. There are a growing indications according to american officials that russians have been training the rebels accused of shooting down mh17. The question now, what will it take to find definitive proof and can those responsible be brought to justice . We want to ask those questions of philip mudd, former cia counterterrorism official. You have a lot of experience dealing with these types of groups, militias, nongovernment actors, for lack of a better word, thugs. What will get them to get out of the way of this investigation and allow it to move forward the way it needs to . I dont think well see them get out of the way of this investigation. That is because youve got to e define the question more broadly than we defined it over the past day or so. Not just access to the site. Youve got to ask them for access to three categories of people and theyre not going to give that access. In any investigation, youre going to want to talk to the military personnel who were in the unit that fired the missile. Number two, talk to the villagers in the area in which the plane came down, ask them what kind of plume, for example, they saw from the plane. And most interesting to me, if u. S. Intelligence can define narrowly the location from which that missile was shot, i want to talk to villagers in that location and say, did you see any trucks come in, any trucks leave, any people talking. The chances that the militants will allow that kind of access are about zero. I want to ask you what more do you think the Intelligence Community knows that hasnt been made public to this point . I ask that because secretary kerry came out really strongly yesterday with some pretty strong proclamations including that russia, they have information that russia is has been training the rebels, including on these Missile Systems, that these Missile Systems have been brought over from russia to ukraine for the pro russian rebels. If this is what the secretary is confident enough of to come out and talk about on the sunday talk shows, what information do you think theyre not telling us yet . My guess is they know quite a bit. The reason is quite simple. The guys now running the analytic program are the same guys i grew up with when i joined in 1985. I know how they think. One of the things theyre thinking about is not replicating the errors of the iraq wmd problem. Yo do n you want a high level of confidence, satellite imagery of the satellite Missile System. The problem in this case, let me be clear, dividing between capability, did the russians give the rebels the capability to take this shot and intent. Did the russians want the rebels to use the Missile System in a way like this . It is very difficult to get intent information in the intelligence there are a lot of american officials who say giving them that capability puts blood on their hands, on Vladimir Putins hands. Were hearing about Training Camps where they have within trained with how to use the weapons. Do you think there is any possibility they would have the know how to shoot these things without direct russian training . I do not. I think the russians were probably culpable in not only providing the system, but training. But you got to distinguish in the intelligence world between what you think and what we know. Ive been burned so many times in intelligence saying we have 90 of the picture, this is what the last corner of the picture looks like and you got it dead wrong. My guess is behind the scenes a couple of things are happening. This intelligence picture is pretty clear. There is going to be additional indications that will come in, but im sure the secretary of the state and the president have very little concern about the quality of the intelligence. You dont get out and talk like they did without high quality intelligence. The second thing this is interesting. We spent decades, that is the United States government, after world were ii, developing a capability to follow soviet Missile Systems around. This is the bread and butter of u. S. Intelligence. A, the u. S. Knows what happened here. B, the u. S. Knows what intelligence capabilities the russians have. And, c, putin knows we know. This game is over in the intelligence world. We got the goods and putin knows it. Well, philip mudd, chris cuomo in Eastern Ukraine. I dont know if you can see whats behind me, but talk about the difference between what you know and what you can show, what im showing right now is a completely unsecured crime scene where anybody who wants to can walk around it and unless the militants are here and want to show force instead of respect for the dead. My question is how does the u. S. Or any intelligence force allow this to happen. You cant say you dont need the site. Of course you need the site. This is where the plane is, where all the important forensic information is and it seems like theyre relying on intelligence over the human intelligence of caring about the dead, and if you didnt need to be here, how do they not come . How are the western authorities not on the ground here, giving dignity to the dead and helping the families of mh17. Arent you surprised by this . Im a bit surprised. Im not saying what is on the ground isnt important. There is other stuff i believe will be used eventually in a court. That might be a criminal court in europe, might be a criminal court in manhattan. I believe and you can mark this on the cnn calendar, sometime in the next five to ten years, that long, somebody from the ukrainian opposition will be in a court of law answering for murder. That said, to answer to your question, having been in situations where youre putting people in harms way, whether afghanistan or iraq in my own life, there are people who are dead on the ground, this is a tragedy for the families, but you got to be careful about putting somebody else in harms way and stepping back and saying why did i get a monitor killed because i moved too quickly. I understand there is a tragedy here. There is also responsibility of the people putting boots on the ground and say let me not get somebody else killed. I hear you. But you know the u. S. Puts people on situations that are hotter than this. They go to a lot of hot situations. Theyre not here and it is making a huge difference. And if it is true that Vladimir Putin understands this, and is allowing this to be secured this way and allowing International Pressure, what does that mean in terms of how you have to look at the urgency with which we deal with russia . I think the urgency is high. And it will shift very quickly from what we have been talking about in the past few days, the intelligence picture, what we know about the scene, what we know about russian provision of this stuff to what happens in europe, especially tomorrow. We can talk all we want from the white house and the congress about sanctions, but my in my judgment, the question is going to come out of germany and thats whether Angela Merkel and the rest of the germans are going to have the stomach to do what the president is pressing him to do. The secretary of state has come out with tougher and tougher words. The game is on, the intelligence noose toughened around putins throat. Are the people going to follow through . Im not sure. One thing we heard from many guests this morning is that the top priority should be for ukraine to regain control of this area in Eastern Ukraine. Thats clearly a priority for the United States and our western allies. In the absence of that happening very quickly, how do you operate successfully on the ground to try to not only investigate what happened with this crash, but then bring people to justice . I think the investigation is going to be very difficult. You talk about the vast amount of space that you got to look at. Youve got to comb through that so carefully and to think that over a few days, with only episodic access to the site that you can do anything like that was done, for example, in the lockerbie tragedy years ago with libya shooting down a plane over scotland, to think youll get that quality of investigation is already out the door. But to my mind, that does not impact the fundamental question about whether there will be sufficient information at some point down the road, to bring people to justice. And, again, i think the question will not just be physical access to the site, in the world of investigation that is interviewing witnesses. Some day those witnesses are going to talk to an investigator and i know my brothers at the fbi, i served there for four and a half years, they will never forget. Those interviews, this year or in 2024, those interviews will happen and somebody will go behind bars. Lets hope those interviews happen sooner rather than later and there is investigation progress sooner rather than later. Philip mudd, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it. Stay with us store the latest on the big news story of the day, the crisis in gaza. Narrator these are the skater kid whoa narrator that got torture tested by teenagers and cried out for help. From the surprised designers. Who came to the rescue with a brilliant fix male designer i love it narrator which created thousands of new customers for the tennis shoes that got torture tested by teenagers. The internet of everything is changing manufacturing. Is your Network Ready . Say hi rudy. [ barks ] [ chuckles ] id do anything to keep this guy happy and healthy. Thats why im so excited about these new milkbone brushing chews. Whoa, im not the only one. Its a brilliant new way to take care of his teeth. Clinically proven as effective as brushing. Ok, here you go. Have you ever seen a dog brush his own teeth . The twist and nub design cleans all the way down to the gum line, even reaching the back teeth. They taste like a treat, but they clean like a toothbrush. Nothing says you care like a milkbone brushing chew. [ barks ] thanks for joining us this morning. For the latest from ukraine and gaza, time to turn to newsroom with carol costello. Thank you. Have a great day. Newsroom starts now. Happening now, the u. S. Doubles down on russia. This is a moment of truth for russia. Putin tries to deflect. But the world isnt buying it as outrage grows for putin to take responsibility. It is crystal career that any russian, drunken aguerrilla cannot manage this system. It is like leaving criminals in control of the crime scene