Transcripts For CNNW State Of The Union With Jake Tapper 20200517

Do more to help support these states. Congress has, uh, spent a lot of money. Theres a need for that. Ill speak for Ohio Governor mike dewine and california governor gavin newsom, in moments. President trump cuts loose another Inspector General, this one investigating his secretary of state. Will any of his republican allies act . Wisconsin republican senator ron johnson joins me to discuss, next. Hello, im jake tapper in washington where the state of our union is opening. This morning there are nearly 89,000 americans dead from the coronavirus. The speed at which this virus has killed is just horrifying. Just two months ago the number of dead was 87. As the death count continues to rise, life during this pandemic is beginning to change. The majority of states across the u. S. Are taking steps to reopen as the number of new cases across the country are falling. While the nation grapples with how to balance reopening and staying safe, former president obama made rare Public Comments criticizing American Leadership in two different televised commencement addresses. More than anything, this pandemic has fully, finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the folks in charge know what theyre doing. A lot of them arent even pretending to be in charge. The criticism from obama comes at a time when President Trump anding h ing hihis team ag an unprecedented Smear Campaign against any rival, ranging from bizarre false conspiracy theories to spreading false allegations of pedophilia to even suggesting one tv anchor committed murder. These Smear Campaigns are unmoored from reality, theyre deranged and indecent and seem designed to distract from us this horrific health and economic crisis. It is that pandemic well focus on today. Joining me now to talk about the pandemic, secretary of the department of health and Human Services alex azar. Secretary, thanks for joining us. 48 states will have eased restrictions in some form by tomorrow. Its unclear how many of these states have met the Coronavirus Task force guidelines to begin stage 1. We see a crowded bar in wisconsin, a boardwalk in new jersey, another crowded bar in ohio. Does it concerns awe heal you a secretary to see these images . Jake, thanks to the president s historic response efforts and the collaborative work of our governors and heroic Health Care Workers on the front lines, were in a position to reopen. The president has left it up to the states to know their local situation the best. Its very hard to judge in any Community Whether a bar being open, a restaurant, a school is the right thing. Thats why the local leaders lead this, the state supervises, and the federal government provides expertise and support from our level. It depends so much on what the Disease Burden is. In almost half of our reported counties, weve had not a single death. 62 of covid cases come in just 2 of the reported counties in the United States. These are very localized determinations. There should not be one size fits all approaches to reopening. But reopen we must, because its not health versus the economy. Its actually health versus health. There are Serious Health consequences to keeping us shut down, whether its the suicide rates or cardiac procedures not being received, pediatric vaccinations declining. All of these are Critical Health needs that are part of reopening the economy. But in a crowded cities, ill pick one, for example, columbus, ohio, the u. S. Surgeon general says, if you go out, wear a mask, practice social distancing. You see these images from crowded bars in places like columbus, theyre not Wearing Masks, theyre not practicing social distancing. That doesnt concern you . In any particular instance youll see people doing things that are irresponsible, thats part of america. If youre in crowded areas and if youre in an area that has Ongoing Community spread of disease, there are steps you should take. Thats what our guidance is there for. We count on local leaders to implement and interpret that according to the local situation. But weve got to get this economy and our people out and about, working, going to school again, because there are Serious Health consequences to what weve been going through. Yeah, i dont think anyone disputes that we need to take steps to reopen. Its just a question of whether were doing so responsibly. Let me ask you, this is intrigue to go m ing to me, because some states have been reopening despite warnings of dire consequences from Health Experts. States like georgia and colorado began reopening weeks ago and it seems at least so far that we have not seen a dramatic spike in new cases from those two states, georgia and colorado. What have you seen from those states . Is there any cause for concern that they reopened early . Is it still too early to tell . Or are they taking measures such as social distancing and masks that make this reopening work . Jake, i think your question is very insightful. We are seeing that in areas that are opening, were not seeing the spike in cases. We still see spikes in some areas that are in fact closed, very localized situations. And so this is going to be very important for us to watch the circumstances on the ground. With reopening, whats the key to reopening . First we need to have good surveillance. So we need to look for influenzalike illness and other respiratory disease. We have a great Surveillance System for that. We look for spikes and early indicators. We have adequate testing capacity. We need to make sure anybody who is symptomatic is tested and that we have adequate asymptomatic surveillance in areas of greatest burden. Senior living, congregate living situations like prisons or meat packing facilities where people are close together. So we look for early indicators. Then we use the traditional Public Health tools to surge in there. We would test everybody there. We would do Contact Tracing and isolation. Thats where places like georgia and colorado, as they reopen, its these tools that allow us to be reopened, but do so in a safe way that lets the economy function but allows us to use the traditional tools of Public Health to move forward as we would with any other disease. Lets talk about surveillance testing and Contact Tracing, because the white house has been able to keep its workers and you and President Trump and others who go to the white house safe because you are conducting at the white house regular testing, surveillance testing, Contact Tracing. That would be a great way to keep, as you know, a meat packing home or retirement plant safe, regular testing, Contact Tracing. But when will the rest of us get that same kind of protection that the white house gets . Because i dont think there is that level of testing at the most vulnerable places like youre talking about, prisons, meat packing plants, nursing homes. So thats actually part of the ongoing plans for the country that you have targeted. But the notion that you would test 330 million americans every morning to say whether they have covid is not realistic nor seriously treated by Public Health experts. Even at the white house not everybody is tested everyd day. Its only if you will have contact with the president or Vice President that day. I think youll agree, jake, those two roles are unique. In our meat packing plants and nursing homes, we are testing, were connecting them with testing at labcorp and quest, as part of syndromour plan to surgd contain outbreaks when we have syndromic cases. Well be progressively moving from mitigation back to containment, outbreak, circle, contain, and control situations like that. I dont think anybody expects that were all going to be given the same Health Benefits as the president of the United States, the commander in chief, of course. But i do think, if were trying to get our economy open, lets take schools, as an example. I have two children. If my two children went back to school in september and every student, every teacher, every person who worked at that school were tested before they could go in, and then the ones who tested positive would be isolated, and then a test like that happened, i dont know, every month, i would feel a lot more secure about sending my kids to school if there was that kind of aggressive testing for that school. Now, im not saying every american should be tested every morning, of course not. But every Health Official ive talked to, including you, says there needs to be more aggressive surveillance testing. When are we going to get up to the level where people could have some peace of mind, i know i can go back to work because we tested everybody before we went back to work and we isolated people and we do this every month now or Something Like that . When will we be able to do widespread broad based testing and Contact Tracing for every american . We have had 10 million tests done. Public Health Experts say as a gauge of whether you have adequate testing for surveillance purposes you want to be seeing a Positivity Rate of 10 or below. Nationwide were at 9 . 38 of our states are at that 10 or below goal. The others are progressing towards that. Well have 12. 9 million tests administered as the projection just in the coming weeks, doing 300,000 tests a day. And were going to be bringing online something, jake, that i think is quite exciting, which is going to be these antigen tests which are rapid tests, antigen tests, the look would be Something Like a pregnancy test, whats called a lateral flow device. Were working with manufacturing on improving those. Those are very high volume, point of care tests. That will be part of the recipe for the future. For those kinds of situations like you rightly say as a parent, those concerns for our nursing homes, our prisons, our meat packing facilities, to aid us with broad surveillance and testing. President trump has, over the last couple of months delivered just a historic transformation of testing thats now become one of the models in the world with the most tests administered of any country in the world and were really on the right track here for the future. Okay. I dont want to belabor the point but 10 million tests over the course of 3 1 2 months is not sufficient for 328 Million People. I know you know that it needs to increase. I want to ask about the vaccine, because that was a big focus for the administration this week. President trump at that same press conference, at which you are heralding, the administration was heralding the possibility of a vaccine by the end of the year, the president said, quote, vaccine or no vaccine, were back, unquote. For americans who are listening to the president , can you explain in practical terms what he means when he says were back . I mean, we still need to wear masks. Can we have weddings or large gatherings . Will grandparents be able to visit new grandchildren . How are we back . So what the president was making the point on is, everything does not depend on a vaccine. Were committed to delivering a vaccine, well put the full power of the u. S. Government and our private sector towards getting a vaccine, but thats one of a multifactorial response program. First is the testing we talked about before, broad surveillance to find cases, surge in and contain. Also therapeutics. Were driving forward on convalescent plasma to be able to treat people. Well take hypo immunoglobulin and create concentrated protective immunity for individuals. We have monoclonal antibodies that will allow to us replicate in an individual immune response from somebody who has already recovered from covid. From that we deliver a vaccine. Its a multifactorial approach that will help us get the Disease Burden down and use traditional Public Health tools so we have our weddings, so we visit our grandparents, so we resume normal life at school and work. Secretary azar, you were saying our testing is now the model of the world. But i have to ask, the u. S. Has less than 5 of the worlds population but has 30 of the worlds officially reported coronavirus deaths. You said back in january that, quote, the risk is low, our job is to work to keep it that way. Did the u. S. Government fail . Why is this virus hitting our country so much harder than its hitting other countries . So, first, just in terms of the actual case counts, were testing more than other major countries so were seeing a tremendous number of cases. Remember, were actually flushing out significant asymptomatic individuals in the United States. Other countries are not testing asymptomatic individuals in any way like what were doing. Look, for instance, at japan, which has a very low case count, but does very little testing on individuals. In fact i think you have to be several days febrile in order to even get a test there. That leads to a significant difference. What did the president do here . We defined in january a core strategic objective. We said, i said this very clearly, we cannot hermetically seal off the United States from a virus. This virus will spread, this virus will come here. We said our goal is to delay the curve and to flatten the curve and that is exactly what we did through the historic Border Control measures and then through working with our Health Care Systems and our governors, our heroic front line health workers. While the burden has been tragic and terrible, it has remained within our Health Care Systems capacity. As the president said, we havent had any individuals to our knowledge who had to die because they didnt have a ventilator or didnt have an icu bed and thats a really important measure of Health Care System resilience and thats whats enabling us now to do what weve talked about, move towards reopening and getting back towards a normal state. I understand that, but we have almost 90,000 americans who are now dead because of this. I dont think that this is anything to celebrate. Oh, jake, you cant celebrate a single death. Every death is a tragedy. But the results could have been vastly, vastly worse. Its also important to remember, jake but its worse for us than it is for anyone else. Thats actually not factually correct, when you look at mortality rates as a percent of diagnosed cases. The number of dead bodies. Every death is tragic, but we have maintained our Health Care Burden within the capacity of our system to actually deal with it. Unfortunately the American Population is a very diverse it is a population with significant unhealthy comorbidities that do make many individuals in our communities, in particular africanamerican, minority communities, particularly at risk here because of significant underlying Disease Health disparities and disease comorbidities and that is an unfortunate legacy in our Health Care System that we need to address. But no, the response here in the United States has been historic, to keep this within our health care capacity, even in new york city, to keep this within capacity, is genuinely an historic result. I want to give you an opportunity to clear it up because it sounded like you were saying the reason there are so many dead americans is because were unhealthier than the rest of the world. I know thats not what you meant. Oh, no, we have a significantly disproportionate amount of obesity, diabetes, these make any type of Disease Burden of course, but that doesnt mean its the fault of the American People when the administration didnt take adequate steps if february. Please dont distort, jake, this is about simple epidemiology and stating that if we have hypertension, if we have diabetes, we present with greater risk of severe complications from this coronavirus. Thats all i was saying, and you know that. This is not one doesnt blame an individual for their health conditions. That would be absurd. Its simply a statement that we do have greater risk profiles here in the United States. And this is why weve all highlighted the surgeon general, the president , weve highlighted the special Disease Burden and risk factors in a lot of our communities that weve got to address. No, of course, no one would dispute that. Let me ask you one last question. There is a lot of disinformation out there, as you know. Last night on cable, someone said that the shutdowns that the states have taken, the governors, are just an effort to hurt President Trump by preventing him from holding rallies, the same person said the day after the election, the virus will disappear. I know you know thats not true. Whats your response to that . We need to have balanced information, thats all Public Health leaders are trying to do, present the fact that were now in a position where we can be reopening. We want to take safe and appropriate measures. The president has laid out very balanced criteria and approaches that he suggests states follow to do that. Thats the path forward that we need to take. I think hyperbolic rhetoric on any side is not appropriate. These arent partisan issues. This is just health and economic welfare for our citizens. Exactly. But you would agree that governors did not take these steps to shut down their states because they were trying to hurt President Trump. They were trying to protect the lives of their citizens. I find i find that its better not to try to impugn individuals motives. The president , the Vice President , and i have had a superb working relationship with the governors across this country, whether red state or blue state. Weve all been working in partnership to help the American People and were going to keep doing that. All right, secretary azar, i really appreciate your time today, thank you so much. On that nice nonpartisan note, i will bid you farewell, thank you so much, sir. Thanks, jake. Now lets talk about one state that took aggressive steps early on to confront the coronavirus efforts that now appear to be paying off healthwise although the economic consequences are causing real pain that could last for years. Joining me now, the democratic governor of california, gavin newsom. Governor, thank you so much for joining us. Youre facing a 54 billion budget deficit. I asked white house adviser Kevin Hassett whether the white house would support money for states. I want you to take a listen to what he told me. I think that its just premature. We think we have the luxury of a moment to learn about whats going on. President trump has signaled while he doesnt want to bail out the states, hes willing to help cover some of the unexpected covid expenses. So the position of the white house seems to be that any money for states would be premature. Whats your response, sir . Its not charity. I mean, a year ago, jake, we were running a 21. 5 billion surplus. And here we are at 54. 3 billion budget deficit that is directly covidinduced. We have been managing our budget effectively, efficiently, paying down our long term pension obligations. We had a bond rating that went up twice last year. The highest in decades. So were not looking for charity. Were not looking for handouts. Social responsibility at a time when states, not just california, large and small, all across this country, cities and counties, large and small, all across this country, are facing unprecedented budgetary stress. It is incumbent upon the federal government to help support these states through this difficult time. The house passed a bill on friday night with money for states. But Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell has suggested its dead on arrival. Can you explain what you think will happen to california if the federal government doesnt give you money to help you out . They say its dead on arrival, i hope theyll consider this. The next time they want to salute and celebrate our heroes, our first responders, our Police Officers and firefighters, consider the fact that they are the first ones that will be laid off by cities and counties. Folks that are out there, the true heroes of this pandemic, our Health Care Workers and nurses, those county Health Systems have been ravaged, their budgets have been devastated and depleted, the budget counts depleted since this pandemic. Theyre the first ones to be laid off. Weve got to square our rhetoric with the reality. 20 of americans are unemployed. In a few weeks, over 100,000 americans will have lost their lives. These are depression era unemployment numbers. And we have to own up to that. Im not looking to score cheap little points. But i do want to make this point, jake. We have an obligation, a moral, an ethical obligation to american citizens across this country to help support cities, states, and counties. You talked about the Budget Surplus that california had. Some say california wasnt in great shape. Joe nation said that california has over a billion dollars in pension debt and he warned before the pandemic, even a mini recession in which pension systems assets fall by onehalf Great Recession levels, Public Employees would face layoffs and salary cuts, unquote. How much is the crisis were in right now due to preexisting financial obligations . None. The 54. 3 billion is a direct result of covid19. Just a few months ago, i introduced my january budget, but with, again, a projected surplus. We paid off 100 of our debt we had inherited over seven or eight years ago. We were using 9. 13 billion of the surplus last year to pay down long term pension obligations. So joe is absolutely right as it relates to the unfunded liabilities that statements all across this country are facing. But it relates to the operating accounts of this state. They were never healthier, the reserves never higher. This is a direct result of a global pandemic, manifesting in different ways across this world, and across this country. With respect, i will caution people to look at this as a frame of charity, when its fundamental purpose of government is to protect peoples safety and to protect their wellbeing. This is a moment where we need to meet the moment head on and acknowledge, this is not a red issue or a blue issue, this has impacted every state in america. President trump announced a new initiative on friday to produce hundreds of millions of doses of a yet to be discovered coronavirus vaccine, hopefully by the end of 2020, he says. Do you anticipate that the u. S. Will have a vaccine by the end of the year . Are you confident also that the u. S. Has the infrastructure in place to not only manufacture it but administer it . Im confident there may be what we approximate as a vaccine. But i am very concerned about the second, the latter part of your question, which is the manufacturing capacity, Global Manufacturing capacity at scale and the logistics in the administration of that vaccine. So i am hopeful and i think its good to be optimistic, but we have to also be sobered by the reality of the application. Even if you have a vaccine, its ability to be distributed is challenging. And always we must be consid considerate of an infrastructure to distribute to the most vulnerable and not just the most wellheeled. Some people are saying that people like you who took aggressive action on the pandemic were overreacting and harming your economies. Whats your response to them . You see people like this all over the country, who are frustrated about the economic pain. Look, i deeply understand that the stress and anxiety that people have, that entire dreams have been torn asunder because of the shutdowns, their savings accounts depleted and Credit Ratings destroyed. Im deeply empathic to that. But with all the information we had at the time, it wasnt just democrats and republicans, it was universal that people felt we needed to meet the moment head on and do the one thing that nonpharmaceutically we could do, and that was physically distance from one another, practice social distancing. The president himself on down, democrats, republicans, all throughout this state and this nation, in those early stages felt that was appropriate. The question is how do you toggle back and make meaningful modifications to the stayathome order. Thats where were now at this point of friction and a lot of frustration in cities and counties, not just states, across the country. Lets talk about california schools. Your superintendent says reopening will be up to individual school districts. Some of those districts are considering partial remote learning, smaller class sizes, a staggered schedule. President trump has vowed that, quote, schools are going to be open. Is he right . Will schools in california be open this fall . I think some schools will not be. Many schools will be. And its all conditioned on our ability to not only keep our children safe but to keep staff and faculty safe and keep the community safe. Its all predicated on data, on science, on not just observed evidence. The reality on the ground. Each part of california is unique and distinctive. Its a question thats a difficult one to answer in absolute terms. Theres a nuance. But we are moving forward with the expectation that we can start that school year streejicalstreej ical strategically and methodically. The cdc issued a warning this week about this mu multisymptom inflammatory syndrome. Several children in california are suffering from this disease, as you know. How worried do you think parents should be . Were monitoring it very closely. We havent seen the kind of outbreaks, based on the monitoring of that, were not seeing the outbreaks weve seen in other parts of the country. Im a father of four kids, and deeply anxious about their health and safety, as every parent watching is as well. And so its just another proof point. Those that claim we know what we know about this pandemic, it was 90 days ago, no one even knew the word covid let alone what coronus actually meant. Every day we have to be humble by what we dont know. You cannot be ideological about this disease, nor, forgive me for belaboring, can we be naive. If history doesnt repeat itself, it certainly rhymes. The realities of previous pandemics around the globe, those we experienced in the United States, suggest not just second waves but potential third waves. So one has to be very, very sober, as we move forward to this next round of reopenings, and do so with the modifications required at the moment. And a humble spirit on all sides of the political aisle is also needed at this moment. Success said ma you said Mass Gatherings would be negligible until there is a vaccine. What will life be like in california . Will there not be concerts or Sports Events or weddings . 70 of the economy is open in california with modifications. Weve seen dozens of counties that have moved more quickly through what we refer to in this state as stage 2, where restaurants are reopening, office, manufacturing, logistics, warehousing operations and the like, but its with modifications. When you look to the future, you have to paint a picture of those modifications, where people are practicing physical distancing or should be, where people are putting face coverings on when they come into contact with strangers. The idea of stadiums filled with 80 plus thousand people, strangers coming together, we want to see that happen, with the spirit and pride that comes from people coming together in that respect, the Health Consequences could be profound and devastating and set back all the progress weve made. So were cautiously working with all the major leagues across the spectrum to make sure that we are not promoting things or promising things twla remember. We cant deliver. Teslas ceo elon musk was allowed ultimately to reopen his plant. One assemblywoman says we should be outraged by a billionaire and let not let him throw his temper tantrum. Is that lawmaker right that tesla got preferential treatment here . No. They moved, they challenged the stayathome order that Alameda County had in place. Ill remind you, the state had lifted the manufacturing requirements. So that other manufacturers around the state were able to operate. Alameda county had not. They intended to on monday, on the 18th of may. They tested that, they came together, and they were able to work out a framework of modifications to keep their workers safe, that they believed will have this issue resolved by as early as monday. And thats the spirit of cooperation. And a say that to make this point. Were being challenged, hundreds of examples, just not as high profile as tesla, all across the country, every single day. Governors are being challenged, Public Health officials are being challenged. And its a spirit of collaboration. Those that continue to pursue things that put people at risk, you have to have steppedup enforcement. But Alameda County Health Officials are satisfied that tesla is likely to reach the thresholds as early as monday. California governor gavin newsom, thank you so much, stay safe. Great to be with you, thanks. As governors take the lead on trying to curb the spread of coronavirus, one republican from the midwest is earning rave reviews from a huge majority of his citizens. He has an Approval Rating of 86 . Joining me now, ohios governor mike dewine. Governor, good to see you again. In ohio, barbershops and nail salons opened on friday, sports leagues can resume next week. Youve said youre still concerned about this virus. How likely is it do you think that a few weeks from now youre going to see a spike of new cases in ohio and you might need to put some of the measures back in place . Well, we certainly hope we dont see that. What ive said to ohioans this week is that so much is in every individuals control, 11. 7 Million People in ohio, weve got to continue to have keep the space. Ive really urged people to wear a mask when they go out in public. Every employee in ohio is wearing a mask today. So this is the way ive described it, jake, this is really probably the most crucial time, the most dangerous time, because we are opening back up, because we have to open back up. But at the same time, that creates more exposure, more opportunity for this virus to spread. So people have to add that extra layer. Were asking them to put masks on, do all the things that everyone now knows you have to do to keep that separated and to slow this down. If you look at our numbers, were at a plateau, candidly. Weve been at a plateau for a month in regards to hospitalizations, and the same way with regard to new deaths. Were trying to do two things at once. And were working at it. So, governor, keeping that in mind, everything you just said, i want you to look at these pictures from a bar in columbus, ohio on friday, the first day that Outdoor Dining businesses were allowed to reopen. Thats a pretty big crowd of people. They dont seem to be Wearing Masks. They dont seem to be separated from each other six feet or whatever, not a lot of distance between patrons. Youve seen these images. Does it concern you . Absolutely. I saw those images very early. We had people there last night. The good news is that the ownership, the people running the bar, seemed to get control of it last night. We didnt have to issue any citations. We did issue a citation to another bar in columbus. Candidly, weve worked with the attorney general, david yost, and well do what we have to do if these things in fact occur across ohio. But ultimately its going to come to ohioans doing what ohioans have done for the last two months, and that is, you know, by and large, done exactly what they should do, try to keep the distance. Were encouraging more people to wear masks, as i said. But its going to be really determined by what we do in the next month or so, what the fall looks like, when we hope to be able to open school, is going to depend on what were doing now and in the next month or so. This week dr. Anthony fauci cautioned against parts of the u. S. Reopening too quickly. I want you to take a listen to what he said about schools reopening in the fall. I dont have an easy answer to that. As we get into the period of time in the fall with reopening schools, i would imagine the situation regarding schools will be very different in one region versus another. What would keep you from reopening schools in september . Well, if we start really seeing a spike in the spread go significantly up. I think sometimes what people miss is that schools were closed primarily because of the spread issue. We have seen the inflammation that you talked about on your show today. We dont know how widespread that is or how big a problem. Basically what we found with covid19 is kids are not great risk, but they are spreaders. They can get it, not show the symptoms, but spread it. So we closed schools down very early and we did it because not because youre specifically worried about the kids but you have 30 kids in a classroom, one kid is in there, hes got no symptoms but hes carrying it. Now 25 kids are now going back to their families and it spreads and multiplies. Ive asked the schools to come up with all kinds of alternatives. Some, if youre back, for example, how do you achieve some sort of distancing, how do you do things in regard to when kids go to the cafeteria, when kunger ki younger kids may go to a playground. What is the best health guidance. And come up with very specific plans that are unique to your school but are guided by the local Health Department and guided by health guidance. We hope to be open in august when School Starts back up in most places in ohio. But we dont know yet, frankly. But thats in the fall. May 31 is coming right up. Childcare centers in ohio are slated to open. I understand youre going to be taking precautions, the people running the Childcare Centers will be taking precautions. Smaller groups of children in each room, much more hand washing. But as you acknowledge, weve already seen reported cases of children in ohio experiencing this new phenomenon, this horrific thing, multisymptom inflammatory syndrome in children that could be linked to coronavirus. How much does that horrible illness weigh on your decision for may 31, the Childcare Centers, especially given how little we know about covid19 . Jake, all of this weighs on me. Fran and i have eight kids, we have 24 grandkids, we have kids who will be going back to school in the fall. What we try to do, and what we did do in regard to the childcare, we pushed it back another a couple of weeks. We think we will have the lowest ratio in the country, smallest number of classes, smallest number of kids in a room. We think we have the best practices that can be put in place in regard to childcare. But were going to monitor all of this. As has been pointed out on your show already several times, this is a virus that were still learning a lot about. We dont know a great deal about it. Well know more today than two months ago or three months ago. Were looking at the numbers today, were getting reports from our Health Departments around the state, we have 113 local Health Departments. All of this is a work in process. We made the decision to begin opening ohio, 90 of our economy is back open. Its a huge risk in opening. We go into this with our eyes wide open. Were prepared to do what we have to do to pull back. Ive said to my fellow ohioans on friday and thursday particularly, when we did our press conference, i said, look, we dont want to be like some of the countries weve seen where they shut down, opened up, and now are starting to shut down again. That is not where we want to be. And its in everyones collective hands how we act in the next month or two, whether or not were going to be in that position or not. All right, best of luck to you, governor mike dewine, governor of ohio. We always appreciate your time. Well see you again. Thanks, jake. As the nation is focused on the pandemic, a judge is debating a request by the Justice Department to drop charges against retired general michael flynn, the former National Security adviser who President Trump fired in 2017 for lying about his foreign contacts. Now two republican senators have released a list of Obama Administration officials who might have known about the intelligence on flynn. Its unclear from what they released. The president is making some outrageous accusations against president obama with zero evidence whatsoever. Joining me now to talk about this and much more, republican senator from wisconsin ron johnson. Senator, thanks for joining us. I hope youre well and healthy. I want to have you take a look at these images were seeing out of wisconsin is residents flooding bars after the stayathome order was overturned. I think everyone agrees we need to find a way for the country to reopen and stop the economic suffering. But Health Experts say this must be done in a way that keeps people safe and ultimately prevents potentially more death and Health Issues and more economic suffering. What do you think when you see these packed bars in violation of cdc guidelines in your home state . I certainly see a small subssu subsegment of wisconsin celebrating freedom. Weve all been pent up, they took that occasion. What i see in wisconsin is primarily people being very responsible, Wearing Masks in grocery store, maintaining social distancing, taking this disease as seriously as it needs to be taken. I realize those are images that concern probably all of us. But again, we do need to move to keep as much of our economy open as possible but open it up safely and responsibly. I want to talk about inspectors general before we get to the unmasking memo. When president obama was in office, you and i would talk a lot about inspectors general. President trump has now gotten rid of four inspectors general in one capacity or another, including on friday the state Department Inspector general. Senator romney called this, quote, a threat to accountable democracy, and said it, quote, chills the independence essential to their purpose. Whats your response . I remember you being a real advocate for inspectors general and independent inspectors general when president obama was in office. As the chairman of the general Oversight Committee of the United States senate, we rely on an awful lot of their work. I think their independence needs to remain within their agencies. Im very mindful of the fact that Inspector Generals dont work for congress, they actually work for the administration. Theyre part of the executive branch, a different, coequal branch of government and they work and serve the president of the United States. I take a slightly different view of what they should be different from. They need to retain their independence from their agencies so they can provide information to their leadership. They serve at the president s will, thats true of every Inspector General. Not all Inspector Generals, jake, are created equal. In our oversight work weve had two Inspector Generals resign, they left town ahead of the posse, so to speak. There are Inspector Generals that bring a political agenda as well as those that do a phenomenal job. So theyre not all equal. In the end, they serve at the pleasure of the president and hes got the authority to hire and terminate. No one questions whether or not he has the authority to do so. But i really have to say i find it hard to believe that if president obama had gotten rid of four inspectors general in six weeks, that you would have the same attitude that you seem to have right now. Jake, again, two of those Inspector Generals under president obama resigned under the scrutiny of my oversight. So, again, im not going to speak specifically to this case with, you know, this Inspector General. Both senator grassley and i had a real problem with his responsiveness to in particular one oversight request. Ive spoken with senior officials from the white house and state department, i understand their reasoning. I dont know if theyre going to provide more robust rationale, but i understand it, i dont disagree with it. I dont think anything this administration will say will satisfy some people who will be huffing and puffing and stomping their feet. Again, its the president s decision whether to fire an attorney general. All the public knows is that this acting Inspector General was investigating whether or not secretary of state mike pompeo was misusing a political appointee to do personal errands for him. Thats according to democratic aides on capitol hill. And then a Senior Administration official has said pompeo asked trump to remove this Inspector General investigating him and President Trump did so. What are they telling you that makes you feel like you again, im not going to discuss my private conversations with Senior Administration officials. But my guess is this will all come out, congress will be able to do whatever oversight they choose to do. Im sure democrats in the house will call in mr. Linick and hell tell his side of the story and the administration will tell their story as well. Im not crying big crocodile tears over this termination, lets put it that way. Lets talk about the list of obama officials that you and senator grassley released. So our viewers understand, in 2016, at the same time the u. S. Was investigating russian interference in the 2016 elections, several members of the Obama Administration requested the name of a u. S. Citizen who appeared in various intelligence reports. This person in the cases that youve cited turned out to be general flynn. Its called unmasking. Its not uncommon. You praised the director of National Intelligence for his transparency in declassifying these names. Im wondering if you would be willing to also push for transparency when it comes to the transcripts of these calls, especially the calls between general flynn and Russian Ambassador kislyak, that seems to be part of this. Have you asked for those transcripts to be released as well . Not yet. We just need to get our investigation in this particular aspect. Jake, this is one piece of the puzzle. Im all for transparency. I think we way overclassify information. And as a result, theres all kinds of wrongdoing that can occur and the American Public never has a clue about whats happening. What im very heartened by is we finally have a logjam broken in terms of Congress Getting information to conduct our oversight. Ive been on this case really in some way, shape, or form since march 2015 with the Hillary Clinton email scandal which morphed into the whole russian collusion, it was the same cast of characters. I have a staff member that went down into the secure area of the senate, went through the phafis report with a fine toothed comb that showed that the fbi knew full well that the russian disinformation was actually part of the steele dossier and the fbi knew it. The fbi knew full well there was no collusion by the end of january yet engineered through james comey the appointment of a special counsel. There is an awful lot of Unanswered Questions that need to be answered and its going to require transparency, yes. So i am all for transparency. I think the American People need to, deserve to, and need to hear the full truth. Thats what im going to try and get. So in addition to the transcripts which hopefully you will push for to be released as well, im wondering, did you also ask to declassify the reports that justify why these unmaskings were requested and approved . Because just listing the names and dates and the fact that it resulted in the unmasking of general flynn, we dont know what this is about. Obviously he was an unregistered Foreign Agent for turkey at the time. He later registered retroactively. So there are a whole bunch of questions that people might have had. Are you going to ask for that to be released as well, the justifications . One thing we found out is the fbi was ready to close the filed on general flynn because they found nothing. You mentioned those other possibilities. They didnt find anything wrong. They were going to close the file until the 7th floor called down and said lets keep this open. Then they started talking about the logan act and apparently president obama was aware of this as well. Theres a lot of Unanswered Questions going back to the text i continue to highlight, december 15, 2016, think our sisters are leaking like mad, scorned, worried and political, theyre kicking into overdrive. Our Committee Conducted a study and it showed 125 leaks in the first 126 days, 62 had to do with National Security. That compares with eight under the Obama Administration. Something is amiss here. Something was going wrong. I dont know exactly what happened, were getting a clear picture of it. I think the chickens are coming home to roost. Hopefully myself with the other senators what does that mean obviously theres questions about fbi behavior, peter struck was fired, lisa page resigned. James comey is no longer on the scene. What are you alleging by the Obama Administration . I have yet to see any facts at all supporting this grand conspiracy that the Trump Administration is pushing . Jake, its because a lot of members of the media have not been asking the questions or looking. Lets face it, there were selective leaks that ramped up this entire russian collusion hoax, and it was a hoax. Whos theo recipients of the leaks . 18 different outlets. I dont know what you mean by a hoax. I would like to see members of the press looking into the leagues and how this story got spun up as a result of the special council to put this country through three years of a mini constitutional crisis. Thats what i would like to see. Senator, its not a hoax that the russians attempted to interfere in the 2016 election. You know that. They put russian information into the steels e dossier. Im not disputing it, im not disputing the idea we dont know what was in the steele dossier or whether it was disinformation. Youre suggesting the entire russian interference company was a hoax, it was not. The Senate Intelligence committee run by a republican has concluded it was not. Every Inspector General said it was not a hoax. The russians were trying to interfere. The hoax was that there was collusion between the Trump Campaign and russia. The disinformation that russia put into the 2016 campaign and the steele dossier and run through Hillary Clinton. Im not trying to deny russia thigh tried to interfere with our election. Can we get back to u unmaski . Its not uncommon. Again, nothing nefarious with it. People want to see who individual russians and others who theyre talking to unnamed americans, they want to know who the americans are. Not saying there is anything wrong with it. If this is abused or if youre concerned about it, are you using your oversight capacity to investigate what the Trump Administration is doing as well . Almost 17,000 unmasking requests in 2018 . Right. I saw the report that under obamas last couple years, it was under 10,000, the last couple of years its been 16,000, 17,000, it troubles me. Absolutely, i want to look into that. I want to know what happened. Is it usual and customary for the white house to be requesting unmasking or is this primarily done within the intelligence agencies . I want to get all that information. I want the American People to hear the full and complete truth. The last thing, sir, you have not made the allegation that the Trump Administration is making, which is that president obama committed crimes. You have not said anything along those lines, but your work, your requesting of this information of the national the director of National Intelligence again, im pro transparency, release it all, your work is being cited as evidence for this crack pot conspiracy theory. Does that bother you . Im just trying to find out what happened. What we do know, because we got these records out of the national archives. What president obama saw when he got those emails from Hillary Clinton was not Hillary Clinton or statedepartment. Gov classified it was Hillary Clinton. Com. The section that Hillary Clinton violated includes knowledge of misuse of intelligence. I thought that was one main reason they covered up for Hillary Clinton and exonerated her. All right. Senator just the truth, jake. I appreciate your time. Stay healthy, take care. Thank you, sir. While most of the nation has been focused on the economic and Health Consequences of this pandemic, trPresident Trump has been focused on purging individual inspectors general from his administration. Most recently on friday night when state Department Inspector general Steve Linnick was shown the door. This follows the president ousting the Inspector General of the intelligence community, Michael Atkinson who followed the law about the whistleblower complaint, the president dismissing christi grimm, grimm issued a report in march saying a survey of hospitals in march said there was a lack of ppe, the president pushing out glenn fein, a man for a reputation of independence who was leading oversight of 2 2. 2 trillion of Coronavirus Relief but no longer will be able to serve in that role because of the president s dismissal of him, to say nothing, of course, of President Trump pushing out whistleblowers like rick bright or those willing to speak truth to power like colonel vin man and on and on. They were looking into whether mike pompeo was using a political appointee to run errands. Inspectors general are there during democratic and republican administrations, theyre there to protect your money, to make sure your government is operating efficiently and free of corruption. The president does not want them there. Hes getting away with it because all of the previous outspoken voices in favor of inspectors general, such as senator Chuck Grassley who for decades stood up for whistleblowers, all of those voices have been muted if not outright silenced. Late saturday one republican senator, mitt romney of utah, did offer a harsh rebuke calling the move by the president a threat to accountable democracy and a fissure in the constitutional balance of power. Romney, sadly as of now, stands alone. In short, one check on the executive branch, the senate, is not only forsaken its overlight responsibilities, its allowing the president to remove another layer by purging Inspector General from oversight. He is sending a message to inspectors general, do your job at your peril. Moreover, the former ig notes, linick is being replaced by an ambassador, loyalty to trump above alls else. Ive been covering washington, d. C. For a long time now. One thing i noticed is when one party destroys a norm, it seldom comes back. When the other party comes to control, which inevitably happens, that party takes advantage of the new power. They usually push it further. While republicans in congress sit back cowardly and dont raise a peep, keep in mind this is not just about President Trumps unprecedented war on accountability, this is about the kind of nation well have after President Trump leaves office whether in january or in 2025. It will be a world where watchdogs are replaced by lap dogs. It already is becoming that world. And that doesnt serve anyone except whoever is in power. And you will have only President Trump and the people in congress and the media who sold you out so as to curry favor with him to blame. Finally from us today, we want to take a moment to send our condolences this morning to the family of the legendary phyllis george, a former miss america who went on to break barriers as a pioneering female sports broadcaster. She was a beautiful soul, a wonderful woman, and a beloved mother to our senior white house correspondent, pamela brown and her brother, lincoln. May her memory be a blessing. What a horrible loss. Thank you for spending your sunday morning with us. Fareed zakaria starts right now. This is gps, the Global Public square, welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. Im Fareed Zakaria coming to you live from new york. Today on the show, you never want a serious crisis to go to waste. That is what rahm emanuel famously said. I will ask the former white house chief of staff and former