Transcripts For CNNW The Lead With Jake Tapper 20191121

After all what colonel vindman said is what you said. He was in the july 10th meeting, heard the same quid pro quo, the same comments by sondland, if you want this meeting, ukrainians, and we have an agreement about this, you got to announce youre going to do the ivestigations. Heard the same quid pro quo that you did. Why are they smeerg him . Mr. Holmes, you testified just as colonel vindman said that he warned zelensky about getting involved in u. S. Politics. Didnt question that, didnt take issue with that. Why smear this purple heart recipient just like the smear of ambassador yovanovitch, its just gratuitous. They dont question the facts, just gratuitous. The attack on you, mr. Holmes, you were indiscreet, in mentioning this conversation to others. The indiscretion is when an ambassador calls the president on an insecure line in a country known for Russian Telecommunications and eavesdropping, thats more than indiscretion, thats a security risk. But why attack you, mr. Holmes . They didnt question anything you said. They didnt question what conversation you overheard ambassador sondland didnt question what you said. He acknowledged that the one thing the president wanted to know the day after that conversation with zelensky was is he going to do the investigations. And sondland said, yes, hell do anything you ask. They dont question that. So why attack you . They didnt question your testimony when you said and i think you asked mr. Sondland, does donald trump give a blank and i would like to use the word here, about ukraine . And he said he doesnt give a blank about ukraine. He only cares about the big stuff and you said, well, there is some big stuff here. Ukraine is at war with russia, thats kind of big stuff. And his answer was no, no, no. He cares about the big stuff that matters to him, his personal interests, like the biden investigation that giuliani wants. One question posed by your testimony, mr. Holmes, what do we care about . Do we care about the big stuff like the constitution, like an oath of office, or do we only care now about party . What do we care about . Lets go beyond your testimony today. Lets look at the bigger picture. What do we know now after these depositions, these secret depositions. People watching at home might not know that in the secret depositio depositions, which apparently no one else is allowed to hear, no members are allowed to participate, secret, apparently just me and the witness, only over 100 members of congress are able to participate in those secret depositions. And the minority was just so unable to participate, they got the same time they got in these open hearings, it was the same format. That was the secret star chamber youve been hearing so much about. So what have we learned through these depositions and through the testimony . Because so much of this is really undisputed. We learned that a dedicated public sevenarvant named Marie Yovanovitch known for fighting corruption, widely respected throughout the diplomatic corps was ruthlessly smeared by Rudy Giuliani, by the president s own son, by their friends on fox primetime and a whole host of other characters, her reputation was sullied so they could get her out of the way, which they did. And youre right, it was gratuitous. The president could have gotten rid of her anytime he wanted. But thats not enough for this president. No, he has to smear and destroy those that get in his way. And someone fighting corruption in ukraine was getting in his way. So shes gone. Shes gone. And this makes way almost immediately there after, she leaves, the three amigos come in. The three amigos. Two of whom never made the connection that burisma means biden. It took tim morrison 30 seconds on google to figure that out. But were to believe, guess, that in all the companies and all the world that Rudy Giuliani just happens to be interested in this one . Thats absurd. The interest, of course, was in an investigation of Donald Trumps rival, the one that he apparently feared the most. And they were willing to do whatever was necessary to get ukraine to do that dirty work, to do that political investigation. And so it began, were not going to set up a phone call until you make certain commitments. That was ambassador sondlands testimony, first quid pro quo was just getting on the phone with President Trump. And then there was the quid pro quo involving the white house meeting. And witness after witness and none of my colleagues contested this, talked about just how important that meeting was to the president of ukraine and why theyre at war with russia and their most important ally is the United States and the most important person in the United States of that relationship is the president of the United States. And if president zelensky can show that he has a Good Relationship with the president of the United States, it means to his people, that this new president has the support of their most important patron and it means to the russians that we have their back. This president , this new president who is negotiating with the far superior power that has invaded his country is going into negotiation with putin over how to resolve this conflict, whether he has good leverage or lousy leverage depends on whether the russians think he has a relationship with the president. And the president wouldnt give him that, not without getting something in return. Wouldnt give him that official act, that white house meeting without giving something in return and that return was investigations of his rival that would help his reelection. An official act for something of clear value and something very important, the big stuff as sondland explained to you, mr. Holmes, to help his campaign. Now, we also heard abundant testimony about the other quid pro quo, the withholding of Security Assistance which no one can explain. There is no debate among my colleagues. Everyone in the nsc and the state department, the defense department, everyones support, everyone, all the reviews that needed to be done to make sure ukraine was meeting its anticorruption standards have been done. And they had found to meet the criteria, the aid should have been released but was withheld and no one could understand or get a clear explanation for why until it became clear to everyone, it is all about the investigations, it is all about the leverage and if there was any doubt about it, the man closest to the president , who meets with him every day, Mick Mulvaney erased all doubt. Youre darn right. Yes, we talked about the 2016 election investigation. And, yes, this was in the context of holding up the military aid and, you know, just get used to it. Just get over it or whatever it was he said. Because thats how we roll. Those are my words, not his. But thats the import. Yeah, there is going to be politics and just get over it. Well, if we care about the big stuff, we cant just get over it. Now, my colleagues have had a lot of defenses to all of this evidence, which is piled up day after day after day and it is amazing they hear you testimony, mr. Holmes, and it was clear the Security Assistance was being withheld, clear to all of the americans, it was clear to the ukrainians. You testified that ukrainians felt pressure, they still feel pressure to this day. My colleagues saying, the same hearing, i guess theyre not listening. Ukrainians felt no pressure . There is no evidence they felt pressure. Which gets into their next defense, which is it is all hearsay. It is all hearsay. Now, most of my colleagues, i guess, are not lawyers, lawyers out there understand just how wrong they are about what hearsay is, but lets just discuss this in terms that all people can understand, the impression they would have you take from it is all hearsay is because we in this committee were not in that war room with you, dr. Hill, not in that meeting earlier with dr. Bolton, that because were not in the room, it is all hearsay. After all, youre relating what you heard and youre saying it, so it must be hearsay and so therefore we dont have to think about it, do we . We dont have to consider you have direct evidence that this meeting in the white house was being withheld because the president wanted these meetings, these investigations, we cant accept that. Well, if that were true, you could never present any evidence in court unless the jury was also in the war room. Thats absurd. They dont accept the documentary evidence, all the Text Messages about quid pro quos, are we really saying and thats crazy, and if my Worst Nightmare is the russians will get it, ill quit. They dont accept the documents, the few documents that we have from the state department that werent produced by the way by the state department where sondland communicates directly with the secretary of state about this investigative interest of the president , and they dont accept the documents either, i guess the documents are also hearsay. Now, might be a little more convincing if they were joining us in demanding that the documents be produced, but, of course, theyre not. And we know why not. Because the documents are like that one we saw on the screen, they implicate others including secretary pompeo. So, of course, donald trump and secretary pompeo dont want us to see those documents. But apparently thats all hearsay. Even when you hear the president , mr. Holmes, thats hearsay. We cant rely on people saying what the president said, apparently we can only rely on what the president says and there we shouldnt even rely on that either. We shouldnt really rely on what the president said on the call report, we should imagine he said something else. We should imagine, he said, something about actually fighting corruption. Instead of what he actually said, which was, i want you to do us a favor, though. I want you to look into this 2016 crowd strike Conspiracy Theory and i want you to look into the bidens. I guess were not even supposed to rely on that, because thats hearsay. Well, thats absurd. That would be like saying you cant rely on the testimony of the burglars during watergate because it is only hearsay or you cant consider the fact that they tried to break in because they got caught. They actually didnt get what they came for, so, you know, i dont know, no harm, no foul. Thats absurd. Thats absurd. But the other the other defense, besides it failed the scheme failed, they got caught. Other defense is the president denies it. Well, i guess thats case closed, right . The president says really quite spontaneous spontaneously, not as if he was asked in this way, no quid pro quo. What do you want from ukraine, no quid pro quo. This is the im not a crook defense. You say it, and i guess thats the end of it. Well, the only thing we can say is that its not so much that the situation is different in terms of nixons conduct and trumps conduct, what we have seen here is far more serious than a third rate burglary of the democratic headquarters. What were talking about here is the withholding of recognition in that white house meeting, the withholding of military aid to an ally at war. That is beyond anything nixon did. The difference between then and now is not the difference between nixon and trump, it is the difference between that congress and this one. And so we are asking, where is howard baker . Where is howard baker . Where are the people who are willing to go beyond their party to look to their duty . I was struck by colonel vindmans testimony because he said that he acted out of duty. What is our duty here . Thats what we need to be asking. Not using metaphors about balls and strikes or our team and your team, i heard my colleagues use those metaphors, this should be about duty wh, what is our duty . We are, this gets to mr. Hecks point, we are the indispensable nation. We still are. People look to us from all over the world, journalists from their jail cells, in turkey, victims of mass extradition killings in the philippines, people who gathered in Tahrir Square wanting representative government, people in china who are uighurs. People in ukraine who want a better future, they look to us. Theyre not going to look to the russians. Theyre not going to look to the chinese. They cant look to europe with all its problems. They still look to us and increasingly they dont recognize what they see. Because what they see is americans saying dont engage in political prosecutions. And what they say back is, oh, you mean like the bidens and the clintons that you want us to investigate . What they see, they dont recognize. And that is a terrible tragedy for us, but it is a greater tragedy for the rest of the world. Now, i happen to think that when the founders provided a mechanism in the constitution for impeachment, they were worried about what might happen if someone unethical took the highest office in the land and used it for their personal gain and not because of deep care about the big things that should matter, like our National Security and our defense and our allies and what the country stands for. Happened to think thats why they put that remedy in the constitution. And i think we need to consult our conscience and our constituents and decide whether that remedy is appropriate here, whether that remedy is necessary here, and as you know, not withstanding what my colleague said, i resisted going down this path for a long time. I will tell you why i could resist no more. And it came down to this, it came down to actually it came down to timing. It came down to the fact that the day after bob mueller testified, the day after bob mueller testified that donald trump invited russian interference, russia, if youre listening, come get hillarys emails and later that day they tried to hack her server. The day after he testified that not only did trump invite that interference, but that he welcomed the help and the campaign, they made full use of it, they lied about it, they obstructed the investigation into it, and all this is in his testimony and in his report, the day after that, donald trump is back on the phone asking another nation to involve itself in another u. S. Election. That says to me, this president believes he is above the law. Beyond accountability. And in my view there is nothing more dangerous than an unethical president who believes they are above the law. And i would just say to people watching here at home, and around the world, in the words of my great colleague, we are better than that. Adjourned. Youre watching cnn special coverage of the public hearings in the impeachment investigation. Im jake tapper live in washington, d. C. , where two witnesses testified today that it was clear to them that President Trump was pressuring ukraine to open investigations into burisma, the company, and the bidens, if ukraine wanted a white house meeting. David holmes, a political adviser at the u. S. Embassy in kyiv, ukraine, said he heard President Trump on the phone with the u. S. Ambassador to the eu Gordon Sondland directly asking if ukrainian president zelensky was going to do the investigation. And dr. Fiona hill, President Trumps former top russia adviser on the National Security council testified that it became apparent to her that President Trumps push to investigate burisma meant investigating the bidens. Lets discuss. What do you think was the most important thing that you heard from fiona hill today, dana bash in. If i may, i want to answer that on the substance and then quickly on the style. Cancer on the presidency is what our now colleague coined during the john dean, during watergate, yeah. Domestic political errand is going to be the three words that we remember i think from this round of impeachment hearings from all of these witnesses. She took this whole big story about names and about dates and about meetings and she distilled it to what the democrats are trying to get at. And she did it from the perspective not as a democrat, but from the perspective of somebody who went into a republican administration, a controversial one for people in the Foreign Policy community, fiona hill, decided to do it because she wanted to use her russia expertise to help the president and his administration. So that is the way that she described what she her aha moment when she realized in the course of one of these meetings was going on by all of these players that we have seen for the past week around her and the regular lines of the National Security council. It is also about her style. And if i may just really quickly, on the other important thing is john bolton. The man we didnt hear from, the man she worked for, the way she described such detail in a very clearly prepared way the way he reacted, stiffening his spine, coming into the office, telling her to write the notes, going to the National Security council lawyer, the way that she described that it is as if she was bringing him in, even though he refused to testify. And then on her style, look, these hearings hold on one second, the republicans, were going to listen in. It has been clear from the start this is not about the facts. We saw that yesterday, the facts are very clear, the witness yesterday, ambassador sondland, said unless there was an announcement of an investigation, there would be no call, no meeting, no money. And, of course, the ukrainians got the call, the meeting and they got the Security Assistance dollars and there never was an announcement of an investigation, so this is not about the facts. This is about i think what nancy pelosi said, the speaker of the house said sunday when she said she called the president of the United States an impostor. Democrats never got over the fact that this new guy has never been in this town, never been in politics, this new guy came in here and has shaken this place up and that drives him crazy. They never accepted the will of 63 million americans, never accepted the fact that donald trump won an Electoral College landslide and theyre trying to do everything they can and first fbi investigation, then it was the mueller investigation, now it is this, theyre trying to do everything they can to as mr. Green, democrat representative al green said impeach him because they know hes going to win reelection. Thats the unfortunate position they put our country in. I thought dr. Hills statement where she said we got to quit this kind of stuff that is tearing our country apart, that is so true. What is happening is not good for our culture, not good for our nation, and yet the democrats do not care, they are bound and determined to do whatever it takes to get out after this president and i think the American People see through it, they see the facts are on the president s side and they know this process has been entirely unfair and frankly i dont know where it goes next, i dont know what they got planned, well have to wait and see and well take some questions. All of these allegations, you say trying to create this narrative im not creating a narrative. Thats a fact, chad. Did she say it . Did nancy pelosi call the president of the United States an impostor . How is that not he said equally bad things about her. He didnt call her an impostor. She got elected speaker of the house. He got elected the president of the United States. You have to establish a narrative. We dont have to establish any anywhere tai narrative. Everything alleged in there didnt happen, not true, how do you get past even if you disagree with what the democrats found, how do you get past that and pitch what your argument is . Did you watch the hearing yesterday . I didnt i asked senator sondland when did it happen . He said, when did what happen . The announcement had to happen before you got the call and meeting and the money. He said there was no announcement. That says it all. That says it all. How can remember when this call came out they said there is go to be a quid pro quo, havent seen it. Not there. Fiona hill testified and rejected very strongly the notion that ukraine may haved meled in the 2016 election. She said this is a fictional narrative perpetrated and propagated by the Russian Security services themselves. Are you willing to accept her testimony . Well, look, we all know that russia meddled in the election. Thats not to say ukraine didnt try to influence the election. Thats the words we have used all along with the mr. Lieutenais that on the same level as what russia did . We never alleged that. It is not. It still happened and for them to just dismiss it out of hand makes no sense. It still happened actually helping russia by trying to pin the blame on ukraine. I know what she said today, when i asked her, i said, was the steele dossier a rabbit hole in the deposition . She said, yes. Christopher steele got played and we know that was the biggest example of what you brought up. That was the biggest example of how russians try to impact the election because that document that he put together where he got played, running down a rabbit hole, the fbi used it to spy on american citizen. Why are you concerned about that . Thats the biggest the fact that happened in this country is so darn wrong, but it did and our fbi did it and when they couldnt find anything, bob mueller spent 2 1 2 years doing the same darn thing, he didnt find anything either. So now they come to this . Thats whats happened. Youre not accepting the explanation. The answer i just gave you. She testified she did not find credible ambassador sondland didnt make a link doesnt change the facts. There was no quid pro quo. You cant just have we presume, this was the case, it didnt happen. And then spent four or five hours refuting the fact that the quid pro quo that he talked about in his opening statement, in fact was all based on guesses and presumptions and no facts. Rudy giuliani was acting on the express direction of the president of the United States. That was his perception, correct. Seems despite all the work youve done, the democrats are going to impeach the president in the house. Will this be a failure on your part to protect the president from having that happen . I think that was probably determined a week and a half ago on the vote. But i thought the telling sign from that vote that day was two democrats voted with republicans. Every republican understands what this is for, how wrong this is, and so did two democrats. If they vote in the next few weeks, we dont know what the articles are going to be, but well see. The real vote is the one that happens in 11 1 2 months. Thats the vote that matters. Got to go, thank you. That was congressman jim jordan of ohio. Congressman mark meadows of North Carolina giving their best spin on the testimony we heard today as well as the larger narrative that republicans are presenting to the public. Dana bash, back to where we were talking about and fiona hills testimony, you wanted to make a point about the style and i want to ask john king about the other gentleman who testified. Well, what i was going to say is that it doesnt happen in washington to watch a witness please both parties simultaneously as well as she did. And that wasnt her goal to please. Thats her walking out. Dr. Fiona hill and david holmes walking out of the capitol after the hearing. John king, what was the most important part of david holmes testimony, do you think in. For the democrats, someone who heard the voice of the president of the United States saying is he going to do the investigations, where ambassador sondland apparently holding the phone out, holmes said he could hear the president of the United States asking is he going to do the investigations . There have been throughout the republican rebuttals of this or dismissals of it you cant tie it to the president. Having a witness and experienced diplomat, i heard the president and in followup conversation, he said sondland told him president doesnt care about ukraine, he cares about the investigation of the bidens. That is the democrats billed their case is critical to get firsthand from the president that this was important to him. I think the bigger dynamic of the day and you can tell by chairman schiffs summary at the end, this is decision time for the democrats. There are no more public hearings scheduled and there is great pressure may not be the right word, impetus to move this along. Now they have to go, the Intelligence Community writes a report, well be around this table soon talking about articles of impeachment. What have the democrats and the witnesses presented conclusively in your view and is any of it a crime . Ill answer the latter first. It is not necessarily a crime. There may be questions about laws apply to the president or not. But it also doesnt matter whether or not it is an actual criminal offense. What strikes me is that the democrats have done a relatively good job systematically showing that the president of the United States has a duty to follow the constitution and execute policy. But the more we learn about the situation, the more we learn the president was not trying to follow the constitution, or execute policy, when he was asking for investigations for the bidens, in particular for a public announcement from the president of ukraine but hes opening an investigation. Thats a political errand, as described, and thats not consistent with the duty and abuse of power. Lets bring up that sound bite, sound bite number five, this is what dana bash was referring to earlier as perhaps the most important part of the testimony today in terps of dr. Fiona hill, who is a was a director for President Trump on the National Security council talking about her conclusion in the middle of all this when she realized what was going on with this alternate group of individuals pushing a different Foreign Policy when it came to ukraine. Lets play that bite. Had a bit of a blowup with ambassador sondland and i had a couple of testy encounters with him. One of of those in june 18 wh said who put him in charge of ukraine and i was a bit rude and he said the president , which shut me up. But it struck me yesterday, when you put up on the screen, ambassador sondlands emails and who was on. Emails and he said these are the people that need to know he was absolutely right. Because he was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were being involved in National Security Foreign Policy and those two things had just diverged. And i did say to him, senator sondland, i think this is all going to blow up and here we are. What is the importance of that to you, laura coates, as a former prosecutor . When i hear domestic political errand, i think bribery, im asking you to give me something of value in exchange for the performance of an official act. We know the official act was handing you over the congressionally appropriated millions and millions of military aid. What do wasnt in retur what do i want in return . Dirt on somebody who i perceive to be a political rival, the bidens, aka burisma. I see the makings of an actual crime. The constitution is set up, you need not have a crime be necessary or sufficient to actually impeach a president. What i mean by that is every single thing that is a crime, impeachable for the president of the United States, if hes speaking for some reason, 20 miles over the hour, it is illegal technically. Do you impeach the president . No. It is necessary to think about the impropriety and inappropriate behavior if he does perform behavior that meets the level of a crime. That, to me in the berubribery is an abuse of power and that is being exploited. What she points out is the idea that everyone was aware of what was being asked, contextual clues were there, direct statements were made, you remember she pointed out, much ado has been made about what is not hearsay, she even used it is my own ears i heard, i observed things, im hearing it, it didnt come out of nowhere. Quickly, we need to squeeze in a break. Laura, if fiona hill was talking about the quid pro quo being about the white house meeting in exchange for these meetings announced and i think thats what she was at that point in this continuum of insidiousness as sondland called it once, does that change whether or not it is broob bribery . It is still an official act. It changes the gravity, but still an official act, still constitutes bribery and abuse of power. A moment ous day to cap a momentous week. Whats the nfls Competitive Edge . Its the sleep number 360 smart bed on sale now. Can it help me fall asleep faster . Yes, by gently warming your feet. 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We will continue to go through what we already heard and look at what else is out there. Ill let the chairman speak as to future dates. What new information did you learn today from fiona hill and david holmes . Publicly the American People learned that on july 10th fiona hill hears this conversation at the white house where ambassador sondland brings up what the ukrainians, the need for them to investigate the president s political opponent, the company that Vice President bidens son worked for, burisma, in exchange for investigations. Thats an important date, jake, because so key to the president s defense and the defense republicans in congress have put forward is that the president told ambassador sondland, i want nothing from ukraine, no quid pro quo, no quid pro quo. We know on july 10 that the president s lawyers knew that there was concerns from people like fiona hill that there was in fact this quid pro quo Exchange Going on with the ukrainians. Youre also on the house judiciary committee, i believe, right . Yes, i am. So when is that Committee Going to meet . What are the plans . Thats the committee actually going to draw up the actual articles of impeachment, right . I think mr. Schiff put it best today. We heard facts that are really not in dispute, that the president leveraged the power of the office over the ukrainians for his own personal benefit. We have to decide what does it mean and once we conclude our investigation, if we decide that it means that the president should be held accountable, that goes to the judiciary committee. But when . When is the judiciary Committee Going to meet . The judiciary committee, of course, is monitoring and ready to receive any report that comes its way, but ill leave it to the different chairman of the committee to tell you that. What is the response to the republican complaint about the hearings . Without question, we have heard from a number of witnesses who work for the trump administration, some of whom still do, many if not all of them with impeccable records and who are patriotic, saying that it was their impression that President Trump, through Gordon Sondland and Rudy Giuliani were pushing this campaign. And we also, of course, have seen the rough transcript where president himself asks the ukrainian president to investigate the bidens in 2016. What is your reaction when they say you dont have the people who actually would be on the inside of this having had the conversations with President Trump with the one exception of Gordon Sondland. You dont have john bolton. You dont have Mick Mulvaney, the white house chief of staff, you dont have who is the other individual, giuliani, Rudy Giuliani, the president s lawyer, and that basically makes this, with the exception of Gordon Sondland, who did talk to President Trump and said President Trump is he going to do the investigation, that basically makes this a hearsay case. The republicans argument would hold would mean something, jake, if the president would lou those witnesses to come forward. But the president is blocking them. I think at this point the fact that those witnesses have not testified, the relevance there is only that the president wont allow them to, which i think goes to his conscience of guilt. If they could help him, he would allow them to come forward like the others have, and as to what it means for the evidence in the case, three people who worked under john bolton came forward and talked about what john bolton saw, heard, and did, and so i think we have sufficient evidence about what the president s intent was. Now, the democrats and Speaker Pelosi in particular said that you dont intend to take bolton, giuliani, mulvaney, to court to try to force them to testify because that will take too long. But impeachment is a very serious matter, it is only happened a handful of times in this nations history. Is it not worth taking the time so that we hear from everyone . Is the desire for expeeieian s here undermining the credibility of the case. The desire for integrity at the ballot box is overwhelming and predominates over fights in the courts that could go beyond the upcoming election. The president himself invoked the upcoming election when he asked the ukrainians to investigate a potential political opponent, so the clock starts to run. If we want the upcoming election to be pure and free from outside interference, we have to understand that the president violated his oath of office by inviting a Foreign Government to help him cheat an election. We cant wait for the president to delay us in the courts. One of the things that seems obvious to me is that the House Intelligence Committee was picked by Speaker Pelosi because of her confidence in the chairman, democrat adam schiff of california who was a former prosecutor. But when i listened to the evidence and i listened and read closely over the last two weeks and before that, it seems like this really belonged in the House Foreign Affairs committee. Thats the relevant jurisdiction. And for that reason, i wonder how can anybody look at this and think, well, this is going about the way it should, when the committee was picked probably because adam schiff would be a Better Committee chairman than the House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman for this purposes. Well, jake, the genesis of this investigation was the president s phone call which triggered a whistleblower to come forward to the Intelligence Community and inspector general. So because thats the origin, thats where we get our jurisdiction. That makes sense, congressman, thank you for your time. Much more on the impeachment hearings coverage including the phone call that involved an ambassador, a rapper in sweden and lunch at a restaurant in ukraine. Stay with us. Maria ramirez . Hi. Maria ramirez mom maria Maria Ramirez. Mcdonalds is committing 150 Million Dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs. 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Embassy in kyiv, ukraine, describing a conversation he overheard between President Trump and the u. S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland. Sondland did not challenge that but he remembered not biden being mentioned in terms of the investigation but burisma. Lets discuss. Mike shields, what do you think . Youre indeclined inclined to o impeachment proceeding. Was there anything that concerns you . No. Nothing . No. I mean, and lets talk polling. Emerson college came out with a poll today showed that impeachment is now going down, the president s Approval Rating is going up. Yesterday, it was plus 4 for the president in wisconsin. We just finished the impeachment, the democrats have had their turn at bat. They have done everything they could to put this in front of the American People, some chomping at the bit to do, and the end result is everyone is hardened and concrete, this is where they are, no kill shots, no amazing thing that came out of all of this. I think will hurd summed it up, this is ambiguous to the American People, and you can think the president may not have done this and still dont think it rises to the level of impeachment and thats where the senate is going to be and thats where we are. First of all, i think the democrats did over the last two weeks was lay out a very clear fact case. Whether or not the American Public and senators agree that the president should be pea impeached say separate question. The case were making which adam schiff summarized is the president of the United States attempted to bribe a foreign power in exchange for a political favor and what fiona hill said today about how Gordon Sondland was running a domestic political errand, that was most important moment today. I will say more than 50 of the public believes the president of the United States should be impeached and removed from power. Thats according to a Washington Post abc news poll. That has moved significantly in the past few months. I agree with you the democrats need to be cognizant of the fact that state polls are the most important in this regard. These are National Polls too. Okay, but let me i think youre being a little overconfident about where things sit. I dont think it is easy to sit here in washington and suggest that the public wont be moved by the facts, lets not underestimate where the public is or by the fact that republicans, donald trump just bullied a long time foreign officer over twitter, bullied a long serving member of the military over twitter. I would like to wait a week or ten days. Mike is right about the current polling, absolutely, as this has been playing out. I think we should give a week or ten days to settle in and see where the American People are. Will hurd, i stress that for another reason, hes one of the retiring republicans. Hes not a trump loyalist. So hes one of the people youre watching, one or two or six or eight House Republicans going to break, i think 16 or 17 who are retiring or not coming not running for reelection in the house. Those are the ones youre watching. What will hurd did today sends a clear signal, if youre the president , im good, in the house, im good, no evidence as of today hes going to have any major break, if any at all in the house. So then we get to the senate, where the last point mike made, the conversation among republicans will change when we get to the senate. Youre not going to have people like jim jordan saying president didnt do anything wrong. Youre going to have a lot of republicans saying this is horrible some republicans will say that, but the majority opinion on the republican side will be that Rudy Giuliani thing is wrong, he never should have been there, the president should have known better, it is a bad judgment, it is not impeachable anyway or not impeachable because there is an election in november. The ones going back to vulnerable districts may hear from people in their districts. I will say people on the fence on eerither side, theyre not announcing it weeks in advance, they come down to the very last moment. To that point, they go home, they now announced theyre tabling salt vote, the democrats wanted, theyre not doing the peoples business. Nancy pelosi said i dont think usmca is getting done. The message theyre seeing is, there say democratic president ial debate last night, and heres what the Party Message is, no one is talking about it, no one knows what any of the candidates said. The message is were going after the president and not doing the peoples business were elected to do, no jobs bill through usmca, no tax bill for the salt states, go home and defend that, while the polls are going down in impeachment. I think the democrats have a especially the 31 in trump districts, theyre hating this. What is the precedent being set here . We know that President Trump asked a foreign country to investigate the bidens, thats just a fact in the rough transcript. We know that people on his team think that there was a quid pro quo, that in order to get that white house meeting, they needed to announce these investigations that people on the trump team thought that. Is this the new normal . The sure we to empower people and embolden them to make poor choices and form illegal acts is not to punish it. Thats the precedent being set. Much more of our coverage of the impeachment hearings next. Stay with us. 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Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world, im wolf blitzer in the situation room. Were following breaking news. The last scheduled public impeachment hearing just finished. And it included some of the most powerful testimony yet. President trumps former top russia adviser fiona hill shattered republican conspiracy theories about ukrainian meddling in the 2016 president ial election, calling it a fictional narrative. Also, testifying the diplomat david holmes who overheard a phone conversation between President Trump and his European Union ambassador Gordon Sondland, holmesd