Government Reform Committee hearing to examine transparency issues at the transportation security administration. The office of special counsel has alleged the tsa has become uncooperative in providing documents in its investigation of retaliation against whistleblowers at the agency. This is about an hour and 40 minutes. We will come to order. The chairs are authorized to declare a recess at any time. We appreciate you being here on this important topic. Transparency of the tsa. Today, the company the committee will explore the of the tsa. We will hear about the Inspector General with problems with the gna with the tsa. In order for us to complete its mission, agencies are required office tounredacted special counsel. Tsa is not fulfilling their big obligation to produce documents frustrating the investigation efforts. , it is notyou acceptable to withhold information. We are bothing committed to on both sides of the aisle to help protect and ensure that whistleblowers are protected. You have a right in this government is a Government Employee to blow the whistle. But when the tsa withhold documents and does not allow the osc to do his job, that is unacceptable. Former tsa administrator peter testified before the Committee Last may that the tsa would based its response on whistleblower retaliation on their findings. But now, tsa is withholding the document osc needs to complete its investigation. Tsane way, you have the basing its today, i do not want to hear how voluminous the documents are. There is but one metric that is important to me and that is the percentage. If you dare go to the place to tell us about how many documents you turned over every time you do so, we will ask you, what percentage of the documents did you turn over . Tsa is one of the agencies and most need of the oscs work. Since 2012, the osc received approximately 243 cases of tsa employees alleging retaliation for blowing the whistle. , very few blow the whistle, but when they blow the whistle, to have 243 people say there was retaliation is a number that is flashing a red light and scares us. The committee is cost of the hearing about complaints from tsa employees. It is been almost a year since our last hearing on this management at the agency and is disheartening we find ourselves here again and should not happen. Tsa selectively withhold information from osc by concerted a commonlaw attorneyclient privilege does that does not comply with disputes. Counsel couldhief not identify the client holding the privilege. When pressed, he said quote tsa has no legal obligation to turn over documents to the osc. Whoinability to articulate she represents and her withholding information shows a fundamental misunderstanding for the oscs function. Sent the committee a letter stating quote tsa recognizes its legal obligation to provide documents to the osc and does so regularly. The letter was sent to us on march 4. It was centralist it was sent to us march 1, 2017. It is not about doing it regularly, but it is about doing it always good osc gets to see all of it, 100 of it, not a portion of it, not some of it, not the part you want them to see. The osc gets to see all of it, that means 100 . Furthermore, it should not take a hearing for the tsa to a knowledge and existing legal obligation. Similar to the noncooperation with the osc, the committee has criticized agencys use of sensitive security information. 2014 in 2014, the Agency Issued a bipartisan report finding agency inconsistently designated certain information as ssi to prevent embarrassing information from being make public, but these problems persist. According to the department of Homeland Securitys Inspector General, tsa is abusing its stewardship of the ssi program. None of these reductions will make us safer and highlights the. Rbitrary nature that is as direct as it can possibly be. In a recent transcribed committee,ith the former deputy Mark Hatfield told the committee and i quote you can mark a chinese carryout menu s. S. I. , end of quote. Talk about an abuse of the system. A chinese menu. That was his example. Transparencyh the if they tend to have one thing in common that is Francine Koerner, the office of chief counsel. She seems to be the conduit and the person be continually bump into. She has a checkered history and a duty to share information. The treasuryor department, she was the subject of an investigation for improperly disclosing confidential information of the white house. Now shes advocating for the tsa to withhold information on whistleblower lawyers on whistleblowers. There is something backwards about that. The committee will not tolerate these impediments when it comes to protecting whistleblowers and ensuring transparency. The acting administrator is here today. We are requesting to write this t this wrong. Igh we will follow up. We will recognize a Ranking Member mr. Coming for maryland. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Lastly, our Committee Conducted an interview with Mark Hatfield, who served as deputy administrator of the tsa and worked at the agency for some 13 years. Employeesed that tsa lacked some of the most basic safeguards to protect them against retaliation when they highlight security concerns. The deputy described an agency where in the absence of normal federal employee safeguards, the culture of retribution and maderary personnel acts employees reluctant to raise security concerns. I will highlight some of the statements made by the deputy during this interview. With respect to the subject of todays hearing, the deputy explained quote it was very little transparency. There was a lot of distrust. There was a sense of, you know, in favor and outoffavor employees. End quote. He said everything was governed by selfdirection and tsa. He said the lack of protections for employees gave people the opportunity to do things that were typically not against the rules because the rules were so flexible, but very questionable when you look at it from a moral or ethical point of view. End quote. During the deputys interview, we asked in the absence of normal employee safeguards computed to an environment in which employees did not want to come forward with information about security . In response he said, and again i mean, it dideah, i not take long for you know enough of your compatriots. Taking an arrow in the back. You are either wounded or dead. And you had a decision to make depending on how loud you wanted to be, or how far you wanted to go. A. End quote. People learned that if you spoke too loudly, or questioned was wearing clothes for yourou could do it personal consequence. When congress created the tsa in 2001, it did not provide the agencies and employees with do process protections given to other employees under title 5. The deputy said of the some flexibility may have been appropriate, the tsa was first should have started converting some of these practices to make them more standardized and the federal government practices. End of quote. Gaveplained the structure them the flexibility and the facility and the power to make extraordinary moves they did when it was created. Evolved, ande unfortunately, some of them have just led to toxicity rather than a healthy agency. One tactic reportedly used against tsa employees was directed the assignments. Or forcing employees to move to entirely new locations as punishment for raising concerns. I got to tell you, this is something that really bothered me because we had people who were being divided from their families, one person going maybe to connecticut, and the other one going to florida. Give me a break. And it was punishment. Punishment. The deputy explained that the former assistant administrator ran a very dictatorial department. On than for kissing rather than focusing on improving security, he used the reassignment process to manipulate positions in the help people in favor, and to punish people who were out of favor. The deputy confirmed during his interview that one tsa whistleblower who testified before this committee on april 27, 2016, received a directed reassignment after being very outspoken about security concerns. Deputy, heo the would often raise issues about security including the extraordinary emphasis on speed over quality of screenings. The deputies said that this whistleblower highlighted what many felt was unreasonable reliance on the metric system that was oftentimes beautiful and presentation on flight decks, but very detached from the reality of the frontlines for the actions were taking place. The deputy confirmed what we have heard many times before that tsa has abused the ssi designation to coverup information. He joked that an early years of the agency, you could mark a chinese carryout menu at ssi. You could get on the internet or the library and they would stamp at ssi. End of quote. From everything we have seen, tsa operations have improved over the last two years. The deputys interview last week makes Crystal Clear that tsa employees meet the same protections as other federal employees so they can speak up about the security of American People without being retaliated against. Congress should consider these reforms. Let me say to the chairman, i thank you again, and i thank all of our members for standing up for whistleblowers. Ladies and gentlemen, if we do not stand up for whistleblowers, we dont need to be here. We need to get another job because as far as i am concerned, it would be legislative and congressional malpractice not to do so. Some of the best information that we have gotten is from whistleblowers. We must do everything in our power at all times to protect them. On the other hand, for anyone who Things Congress has received title v protections for employees and other federal agencies, tsa is a case study demonstrating why this would be a terrible idea. With that, mr. Chairman, i yield back. That anoticed congressman just came in, one of our newest members. Thank you. Thank you. Glad you are here. Members are advised that we do anticipate votes on the floor. We will hopefully get through all of the opening statements. Time, we williate break in the intention is to allow for folks on the floor votes on the floor. Forill hold the record open five legislative days for members who would like to submit a written statement. Lets recognize our panel. We are pleased to welcome the acting administrator for the transportation security administration. The arnold john ross, suspect or general Inspector General for Homeland Security, and caroline lerner, the special counsel for the office of special counsel special counsel for the United States office. All. Lcome you you are to be sworn before you testify. Raise yourd rise and right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give will be the whole truth so help you god . Thank you. Please be seated and we will let the record reflect that all of the witnesses answered in the affirmative. We would appreciate it if you would limit your old testimony to five minutes. I will give you a little bit of latitude, but your entire written statement be made part of the record statement will be made part of the record. You have to straighten it up and get that microphone right in there. Bring it up close. Thank you. Ms. Gowadia good morning distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for affording me the opportunity and privilege to speak to you today about Information Transparency of the transportation security administration. To represent a critical security measure to protect the nations transportation systems. Vital to that Missions Success is how we share information with our many transportation security partners. Demands that tsa and our Partnership Shares information in a timely manner. We were closely across the spectrum of transportation modes to exchange information, solicit feedback, and develop policy guidelines. Indeed, our recent cooperative initiative with industry stakeholders have gilded improvements to our security operations. For instance, we collaborated with airport near carriers to address the passenger volume spring and summer. In the process, we established our Airport Operations Center is a direct communication channel. Leveraging the center, tsa continues to hold daily calls with airlines and airports to screeningaming operations and we communicate with the traveling public to Variety Press releases through a variety of social media and press releases. The transportation Security System does not stop at our borders. It is global in nature. That is why tsa works with partners in place a role and International Organizations with a common vision of transportation security. Across all of our interactions, tsa strive to be transparent and forthright. Asng so serves our interests a free infrequent exchange of information to and from partners, makes us make better decisions and build lasting trust. However, we must remain absolutely vigilant and safeguarding against the release of sensitive information, which could cause harm. We must balance the transparent of intermittent we must balance the transparency of information to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. We ensure that information protection is handled when distributed. Ssi is one category of protected information that is defined by statute. Governing directors mandate that such information be released to the maximum extent possible without compromising security. Because we count on our greatest resource, our people, to enforce these protections, we have updated ssi training and made it in and a requirement for all tsa employees and contractors. In addition, we have developed a comprehensive policy and procedures handbook as well as improved reference guides. Keeping with the spirit of transparency and preserving the Public Access to appropriate information, tsa follows established procedures. Taking together these measures and having the ssi program and the growth is a true learning organization. We must also continue to learn from each other. I encourage my tsa collates to feel empowered invoicing the thoughts, suggestions, and concerns to make improvements in our Workplace Environment and how we do business. That means creating and sustaining an Organizational Culture which values responsible challenges to conventional thinking and invites opportunities to get better. Those opportunities can come from a number of sources be it calling, or an employee attention to an impropriety. Thank we will continue to improve. Many stress that no matter where the challenge comes from, tsa has zero tolerance for prohibited personal practices such as retaliation against whistleblowers. Tsa is fortunate to have employees and stakeholders with a shared passion for success and integrity. We will continue to work hard to exceed expectations. In conclusion, i would like to in the size that each side of informationaring transparently and protecting information when it is required is indispensable to our National Security mission. I have every confidence that the prominent women of tsa today are more than up to both tasks. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. Before we recognize the Inspector General, members are advised to have a boat on the floor. I will put us into recess and we will reconvene no center than 11 00 a. M. So you are free to do whatever you want to do. Please be back here before 11 00. Onsoon as the boats are done the floor, we will reconvene. The committee stands at recess. We will come back to order. We were delayed for a moment, because of the votes on the floor, but we will hear testimony from Inspector General ross. You are now recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me here today to testify regarding issues relating to tsa. Inspector general oversight of tsas programs and operations making government better. The effectiveness of our oversight depends on our ability to make issues detailed, reports recommendations to resolve issues. We must inform congress and the public about any problems and efficiency we identify through our work. Public scrutiny of what we find is key to accomplishing our mission. We have found that tsa has a history of taking an aggressive approach to restricting information from being made public, especially with respect to a category of information known as sensitive. This problem is welldocumented. My First Encounter i First Encountered this issue when they first apply the ssi designation regarding operations at jfk airport in new york. I appeal the issue directly to the tsa administrator, but it was not resolved to my satisfaction. After it was repeated in our latest report on systems, it was published in december of last year. In that report, tsa demanded redaction of information that has been freely publish without objection. Experts posesty no threat to Aviation Security. Entities outside have made similar findings and i believe the problem is deeply rooted in rooted ends systemic rude and systemic. Systemic. And found that the tsas lack of internal controls that tsa unable to be ensure they were applying the designation properly. Nearly 10 years later, this committee reached a conclusion in a bipartisan report. Two years after that, in 2016, the chairman of the House Committee of Homeland Security on transportation and security, objective to tsas management and use of the ssi designation noting that the improper issuestion of ssi raises about tsa conveniently using the security classifications to avoid having public discussions about certain things that may be unpleasant for them to discuss in public. In addition to these inconsistencies, we encountered instances in which tsa redacted information so widely known that redaction bordered on absurd. For example, tsa redacted claiming ssi, a statement and one of our draft reports related to expedited screening processes. Passengerse quote are not required to remove shoes, belts, laptops, liquids, or gels. We show tsa that this information is on their website and pretty much every traveler who go through the precheck lane understands this to be the case. They agreed that the information was not ssi should not of been redacted. As this was resolved, it takes time away from the audit process. Instances in which tsa has attended to restrict information we found on their own website. These examples highlight what i believe is incoherent and and raises serious concerns in my mind as to whether tsa can be trusted to make reasonable, appropriate, and consistent designations. Under policy, any authorized owner of ssi may challenge the marking. Unfortunately, this appeals process a structure to ratify designations and prevent the review of such designations by internal entities. The process fails to properly balance the publics right information against threats to Aviation Security. Are in the fieldwork stage of comprehensive review of tsas management and assessment of its ssi designation and we expect to have a final report by july 2017 and will provide a copy of this report prior to its publication to this committee. Additionally, we will continue to review and publish public toorts on tsas operations the extent we continue to observe the abuse of ssi designation, we will continue to highlight it. Chairman, this concludes my testimony, and i am happy to answer questions. Thank you. Ms. Lerner, you are recognized for five minutes. Ranking member coming for members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the u. S. Office of special counsel and investigations whistleblower retaliations. I appreciate the committees commitment to oversight of putting strengthening our ability to carry out our Good Government mission. All to take the opportunity to thank this committee for your leadership in passing the retaliation against whistleblowers act. Hold islation will will help us conduct investigations. During our investigations, it is standard to issue document request an interview witnesses. A full and complete investigation requires access to all relevant information. Although agencies generally cooperate with osus request, some do not. Some withhold documents and other information by asserting, attorneyclient privilege. Knows, is a committee the committee protects certain information between employee and client. As someone just less than two decades practicing law in the credit sector, i understand the importance of the privilege, and it helped me represent my clients. And government, the privilege is certainly important and a certain context such as in litigation, with third parties. Having said that, there is simply no basis for federal agencies to assert the attorneyclient privilege during an investigation. This is not litigation. This is an internal, administrative investigation at osu is conducting for the government. Heldd, no court has ever the attorneyfight privilege can be used during an administrative investigation with two government agencies. We all work for the same government. Congress in this committee had make clear there is a strong Public Interest in exposing government wrongdoing and of holding merit system principles. Agencies may not use privileges to conceal evidence in the agency that congress has charged with investigating them. The tsa has been somewhat of an outlier and its aggressive use of attorneyclient privilege in several cases. In 2012, congress extended whistleblower protections to tsa employees. Then, osc has received more than 350 retaliation cases from the tsa employees. Two pairs of companion cases illustrate the challenges osc has been getting information from the tsa. Officialsinants are in these cases, tsa was held tsa withheld documents. Osc has asked tsa to withdraw the claims so both tsa and dhs rejected the request. When are several problems assertions of privilege. Children information from osc conflicts with the statutory mandate to investigate personnel practices. When tsa does not disclose the reasons why they took an action against the whistleblower, we cannot investigate whether it is retaliation. In addition, tsas attorneyclient privilege causes significant delays. In these cases, osc has spent months waiting for documents while psa was being responses for privilege. Osc is a tiny agency. We only have 40 attorneys to investigate hundreds of retaliation cases. Our lawyers are spending too much time negotiating for documents. Time that could be better spent advancing investigation. These delays also directly impact complainants waiting for relief. Often when they are waiting devastating situations at work. Despite the challenges created by tsas privilege claims, osc is committed to completing thorough investigations and protecting tsa employees. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. We both recognize the gentleman from alabama, mr. Palmer, for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. We have a slide. Ms. Lerner, can you give an example for the kind of reductions . This is an example, one of the attachments to our submitted testimony. This is an example of the type of document production are getting from tsa. It is a real problem because this document we believe will go directly to the issues we are trying to investigate. Was there a disclosure by the the reasonsat were that the agency has for taking actions against the whistleblower after they blew the whistle . A document that is 100 redacted, there is no way we can get to the information we need. Palmer does it appear that the use of the redaction is selective and inconsistent to the point that it might raise suspicion that it is being used to cover a problem that tsa . But that be fair . Lerner i cannot get to what is motivating them, but it does raise concerns. Mr. Palmer thank you. Dr. Gowadia. Ms. Lerner provided redaction, but are you aware that tsa withheld information in this manner . Aware that we am do assert attorneyclient privilege. Explain whycan you those documents were redacted . Ms. Gowadia i do not know the specifics of the case. Back into have to go the log and determine the exact nature. Mr. Palmer ms. Lerner stayed in her testimony that the recipient of the document were redacted. Can you explain how that information would be privileged . Again, i do not know the context in which this particular document mr. Palmer i am not talking about that particular document. Why would you be redacting the date and the author and recipient . Can you give in it than can you give an expiration on that . Ms. Gowadia it is on a casebycase basis. Mr. Palmer it appears to be selective and inconsistent. Why would you redact the date . Sir, i have again, line itty to to would have to be answered on a casebycase basis. It would have to be answered on a casebycase basis. Mr. Palmer the talk about attorneyclient privilege, but there were no attorneys present at the meeting. How could tsa possibly invoke attorneyclient privilege with respect to the document . Ms. Gowadia i do not have insight into the particular documents were talking about. Mr. Palmer i am not talking about just that document. This has gone on with other instances where in one case, the attorney could not even identify the client. The nickel back to the question you asked previously about if the attorney is not in the meeting. It might be that an employee is asking for attorneys if ice on something. Again, mr. Palmer what if the attorney can identify the client . Ms. Gowadia i am not sure without reference is coming from, sir. Mr. Palmer we will get into that later. Ms. Lerner, do not to comment on that . Mr. Lerner what this boils down to is that we do not believe the attorneyclient privilege for anyany document request. We are acting in agencys shoes. Intraagency issue that congress is asking us to conduct. It is not appropriate for any agency to claim attorneyclient privilege when their producing documents to osc. It is not appropriate to claim that during an osc investigation. Mr. Palmer that is part of my problem with this as i said. Selective use of redaction, inconsistency with it. Claiming attorneyclient privilege. With all due respect, it appears that tsa is trying to cover problems. Rock, do you have any comment on that . We had been fortunate that dhs has taken the policy that i have been there that attorneyclient privilege is not involved with any documents i have received. Position taken the that it does not bar us from accessed information. Mr. Palmer i appreciate your answer, mr. Chairman. I yield back. To ms. Dennings of florida. Thank you to all of our witnesses before us today. We do understand and know how important transparency is, but also how important whistleblower protections are. I am pleased today to hear from both sides of the aisle to speak out and support of whistleblowers and important work done. By the office of special counsel. But despite the talk that we have heard, Congressional Republicans have failed to provide osc with the funding you so desperately need to carry out the work. President obamas Congressional Office for fiscal year 2017 requested additional funding for the agency noting a Record Number of whistleblower over thees of 74 prior two years. Ms. Lerner, was that correct and has osc seen an increase in this caseload over the past several years . And you currently have a backlog in handling whistleblower complaints . Mucherner thank you so for the question. Our caseload has doubled during the time i have been in special counsel. We got over 6000 complaints last year. That is a really big increase. Our lawyers are beyond the ability to work cases the way they need to be working them. We do appreciate that the house in the houses bill fully funded us at the president s number. The senate bill cap test level. We really do need an increase in funds pretty desperately for us to fulfill our Good Government mission and to do the kinds of Things Congress has asked us to do to be effective. We need appropriate staff and we do not have it right now. According to the fiscal year 2017 budget justification that you requested 50 new fulltime employees to meet caseloads. Mr. Lerner that is correct. Even though it received bipartisan support, the Republicanled Congress failed to pass the appropriations deal last year so and lucy last years osc did not receive the fast osc did not receive the staff it requested. Lerner they did not give us the number of staff requested. And their requested to delay actions. Current spending levels will remain in place to at least april. Has Budget Constraints affected your ability to enforce whistleblower protections, and if so, in what way . Ms. Lerner our lawyers are doing an amazing job with the resources they have. You noted, we did request additional funds so that we could hire at least 50 more lawyers. As ive mentioned in my opening statement, we have 40 attorneys right now assigned to do the investigation and prosecution of hundreds of retaliation cases coming in. It creates frustration for complainants. Increased allays in terms of getting people the relief they need. And our staff is frustrated because they would like to be able to spend appropriate time on the cases. So, it would be very, very helpful if our agency was fully funded. Is in 2012 you received more than 350 whistleblower retaliation cases from tsa employees. Is that correct . Ms. Lerner that is right. How many did you receive last year . Ms. Lerner it is on the same level. And to ocss resource constraints affect how quickly you can resolve the open cases, the extreme high number of open cases that you currently have . Startederms. Lerner when i fit in 2011, we maybe had 30 cases per complaints examiner. Now, they are up to 260 or 70 cases per examiner theyre up to 60 or 70 cases. It takes us much more to determine whether a case should be fully investigated. Take us longer to get relief for complainants at a time in their life when they are really under terrible workplace situations. Someone who may need immediate release. We may not get to their case as quickly as we ought to. It could take 90 days on average for cases to get through our examining unit. When i first started, it was closer to two 30 days. Thank you so much. I will recognize myself. , you said that tsa thaterotolerance on those are applying retaliation to whistleblowers, correct . Ms. Gowadia yes, sir. Tsao you believe that the if an employee believes that they had been retaliated against, what organization is the one that comes in to figure out whether or not there has been retaliation . The employees that tsa are afforded all protections from the whistleblower act. They can go up any number of channels. They can go to the osc line. Lets take the osc for example. Says i havelower every county against and the tsa, no, and theres a dispute. The lessee is one of the organizations, the private organization will resolve that dispute, correct . Ms. Gowadia yes, sir. What percentage of the information should the osc be able to review in order to figure out the right conclusion . Ms. Gowadia the osc should have all of the information they need. Define all of the information. Iowadia either priests appreciate where you are headed with the information being redacted for attorneyclient privilege. In that regard, we followed departmental guidance. Wait, wait, wait. There is a law and there is departmental guidance. You said, you believed that the alessi should get all of the information you believe that the osc should get all the information. What percentage is all . It is a simple question. I want to be clear in what i am asking. What percentage is all . Ms. Gowadia all would be mathematically 100 . But i said all the appropriate information. Appropriate. What do you think the osc should not seem . Ms. Gowadia the attorneyclient privilege is presently redacted. I know you do not want to hear numbers, so i will not give you numbers, it is a small fraction. The only number i want to hear from you is that we give the osc 100 of the information. That is what i want to hear you say. Come tothey supposed to a proper conclusion when you only get them something short of 100 . Ms. Gowadia in this regard, again, i have to stress that tsa is not an agency independent. We belong to a department. We follow guidance of the department gives. Us as a part of this hearing, your concern has been raised. I can assure you that we will follow up with this at the department level. Writinget guidance in if we have to. You said it is Department Guidance. When will you provide this committee that Department Guidance . They said attorneyclient privilege prohibits you getting that to the osc. When will i have that on my desk . Ms. Gowadia i will work with them to get you i want a date certain. Ms. Gowadia unfortunately, sir, that is not up to me. You are the acting administrator with 50,000 plus employees. You are relying on sir, the guidance is not in writing. We are working to get you just made this up . It is not in writing . It is a standard practice. No, it is not. Learner this is a standard practice, . No, it is not. Sigsvery much akin to it do. Do you see this with any other department or agency or whatever you want to call it . Not to the extent we are seeing it with tsa. Mr. Roth . We are part of the department of Homeland Security. We get everything, whether it is attorneyclient or not. Provide theu to guidance to this office next friday. Is that fair . A week from tomorrow. I will work to get you something my next friday. Let me ask you this. What do you think congress has the right to see . If i asked for all the information, what percentage would you give us . When it comes to attorneyclient privilege i am not in a position use you are. Yes come you are. Im asking you right now to provide the information the osc has asked for. I want you to provide this committee. Yesterday as a part of getting ready for this hearing it has come to my attention in a very strong way. I went back and i asked for a quick look to see if we can have ever had any concern expressed by the osc in the information we have redacted. Has that kept them from proceeding on a case. We found two instances. Yesterday if we ever redacted these information from the osc we will always accompany it with a log. That will allow osc to have more information on information that has been redacted. When we provide the osc the privilege log. When we do that. That will not be sufficient. Cribbage logs suggest there is a privilege. It is our position there is the attorneyclient privilege. Your point is well taken and i concur, but i would be interested to see all the different times the tsa is taking when will you provide that to the committee on oversight . When will i have that on my desk . With every document we will issue not in the future, i want to know about the ones in the past. High enough familiar i want to know when i will have all of them. You have a week from friday or i will issue a subpoena. I dont need a Committee Vote or to ask a judge, i can do it myself and im telling you a national television, you will get a subpoena for that information. You should provided voluntarily. We do not buy into this notion there is any such privilege. Secondly, the information that the osc is asking for what i dont have 100 of documents, when will we as a committee have that . I wouldnt take that question to the record. This is a departmental position i am not unilaterally allowed to who at the department of full insecurity is holding you back . I have to work with the office of general counsel. Give me some names. I want to know who to call. General counsel to the secretary. Give me a specific name. There are lots of attorneys. Tell me the attorneys are telling you not to provide this information to congress and tell me the names of the attorneys that are telling you not to revive this to the osc. I want names. Sir, i will follow up with your i want you right now. Youve had notice of this hearing. I need specific names. You have a staff. How many staff with the tsa . How many staff are with the tsa or in this audience right now . Raise your hands. It was paid by the tsa . 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. One of these people has got to get on the phone, get your butt out of this committee and get that information. I want names. And we will call them up there. We will go to the ends of the earth to protect whistleblowers. She ishis osc specified time and again. She has one of percent 100 of the information. She needs all of it. Of who it all insecurity is for hitting people from prohibiting people from giving that information to the osc. Toi have asked my staff step out and get a name before the hearing is done. What information do you believe should be withheld from congress . Sir, i dont believe information should be withheld from Congress Unless on certain provisions such as the attorneyclient privilege, which again my hands are tied by departmental policy. I cannot take unilateral action because it has Ripple Effect across the department. I will tell you that when it comes to ssi information, we are completely transparent not just with eva with the aig and your staff. They have full privilege the all the information when it comes to ssi. When it comes to attorneyclient privilege, sir we have established that is so bogus in your making that up. Youre very talented, smart person. I appreciate the work you do on behalf of the United States of america, but we have whistleblowers who think they are getting retaliated against. I want you to stop hiding behind some legalese and throwing attorneys in the meetings seat on to provide documents. We dont see this problem of this magnitude anywhere else. Except the tsa. That is where we are going to get to the bottom of this. Will recognize ms. Lawrence from michigan for five minutes, and some more if she needs it. Miss lawrence thank you, mr. Chairman. Transportation Security Officers are frontline employees who protect our airports in our skies, are not covered by many of the civilservice protections available to federal employees. Tsosind of rights do have when they are subjected to adverse employment action . They have full whistleblower protection and they have the ability to bring their concerns before an Appellate Board to raise their concerns. Who was on the Appellate Board . What subjects them from an arbitrary action, point taken because an employee has fallen out of favor with the manager . What protects them . The entire system protects them. This is about leadership. We have to make it so our leadership as well educated and well able to make decisions that do not adversely affect an employee mrs. Lawrence what prevents an employee from getting arbitrary personnel action . Ms. Gowadia they have the ability to appeal before the Appellate Board . Do you believe there is a consistency in due process are important components of the personnel system for federal employees . Ms. Gowadia absolutely. Lawrence do arbitrary personal practice deters whistleblowers from speaking out about security decisions . It has a Chilling Effect. There is always that fear there is a Chilling Effect that something will happen to that person. Employeesnce if tsa are raising these deficiencies they observed for this put Aviation Security at risk . That is absolutely the case. We get Something Like 20,000 complaints from various employees raising exactly those issues. Those folks can be retaliated against if in fact the word of cooperation gets out. Rep. Lawrence i will make a statement now. Inconsistentry and personnel actions against its employees not only affects morale, but they create serious risks to Aviation Security. Every member of congress is intimately aware of the securities and responsibilities placed on our tsa. We trust them because we and our job must fight fly back and forth in a regular basis. We have a test case of what happens when an agencys employees are excluded from due process protection of title five. The results are a disaster and they should never be repeated at any federal agency. To correct what we have seen it tsa, congress should act now to ensure full Civil Service areection under title five available to all tsa employees, including tsa officers. And also to my republican colleagues, when we talk about rolling back federal Civil Service protection, understand we have made a commitment here on this committee to ensure that we protect whistleblowers. When we drawback, as mr. Roth has said, these protections it has a Chilling Effect. If im not going to be protected, im not going to come forward. With that ideal back my time. Thank you. Now recognizing mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings last week we conducted an interview of marquette field and he told me the tsa was governed by tofdirection, and led toxicity rather than a healthy agency. Mr. Roth, you testified before the committee in november of 2015 about security failures you and covered at a time mr. Hatfield was serving as deputy administrator. You said an indepth round of covert testing at tsa found results you characterize as disappointing and troubling. Do you think the toxic environment in which selfdirection bread this contributed to the security deficiency you identified . Mr. Roth what we found in what i think tsa leadership will testify to as well or has testified to this as well, there was a push to move people through the line and ignore security aspects of what they were doing. Culturally there was enormous pressure on the rankandfile to just keep the lines moving and not worry as much about security. I think the answer to your question is yes, we found that coulter there culture that disregarded Aviation Security. Rep. Cummings you found that if you have major problem . Mr. Roth that is correct, yes. Rep. Cummings considering the mission of tsa . Mr. Roth correct. Rep. Cummings they were probably missing a lot of missing things they should have caught. Mr. Roth we have issues with tsa across the entire spectrum of what they do. Not only at the checkpoint, but how they deal with employees, airport workers, how they guard the perimeter. The challenge the tsa faces are enormous. I think its probably the most whichult challenge at dhs is saying something to try to screen 2 million passengers a day. 900,000 different airport employees with a staff and Pay Attention to us that the Something Like 60,000 people. Its in a normas job. N enormous job. Rep. Cummings and people feeling they are going through too many changes sometimes. Mr. Roth 2 million passengers a day. Just in the course of a day, that is hundreds and hundreds of people. Rep. Cummings you testified it was critical task facing tsa was creating a culture of change within tsa and the ability to identify and address risk without fear of retribution. What recommendation do you observe at tsa and why you believe that the most critical tasks facing the agency was giving the workforce the ability to identify risk without fear of retribution . Mr. Roth we had seen and some of this is simply in the public sphere, public media about instances with regard to the forced transfers and the arbitrary nature of demotions and those types of things. In talking to tso and people within tsa we got the sense that there was a culture of fear and intimidation. Theuld have to say with approach it was a breath of fresh air. He came in with a different kind of attitude not only towards oversight that have he treated his rankandfile. The question is how far down that goes into what is an immense organization. And whether that will continue with new leadership. Rep. Cummings they assign people to different places. Mr. Roth directory assignment. Rep. Cummings what is happening with that . I think he suspended that, right . Ms. Gowadia the practice has been discontinued. The only time we asked for reassignment is if it is in the interest of security. We certainly only go to it at a very last opportunity moment to move people across the country that might. We have put in controls of these decisions cannot be made unilaterally. Office of Human Capital must get into the loop and make this decision. If a member of the thickness service have to be moved, it comes to my desk. We will definitely look for as many options as possible and only ask an employee to if it is absolutely in the interest of security. Rep. Cummings i take it there has been a substantial reduction, based on what he just said, and that type of action . Did we go from 300 to five . Can you give me an idea of the reduction . Ms. Gowadia i do not have exact numbers are what i can tell you is it has not happened on my tenure. Rep. Cummings you agree that the very cold thing to do. Ms. Gowadia absolutely. Rep. Cummings life is short. Ms. Gowadia to move people for no reason that is not fully icused to the mission reason, do not think that is an appropriate practice and we do not do that at tsa anymore. You,cummings let me go to doctor. Employees got arrows in their backs were subjected to retribution with regard to personal practices that made them feel more afraid to bring up security issues. Is that in environment or where they are able to identify risk without retribution . Ms. Gowadia may i please give practices mr. Hatfield was discussing his before my time. He is discussing practices in before administrator cap injure was in place. I want very much for the workforce to know things that ailed them in the past, their Leadership Today stands behind any and will not tolerate retaliation for prohibited personnel practices. That is so important because a tone has to be said here. You asked i. T. Roth it goes down. Hi make the rounds for the airport level all the way through offices, cubicles, working very hard to make it so people see the support they get from their leadership. We are working on leadership training. They want to make it so the notion of leadership begins on tsosont line so that although it up to leadership. Rep. Cummings what i am wecerned about is how do put policies in place so when gone but you may be my point is how do you put the things and so they stay in place. Have outside department we have come in and look at policies to make it so we are now more in concert with the department. We have put in checks and balances. You cannot mandate, he cannot change that leverage of the piece of paper. It changes by changing the culture. People have to feel appreciated. They have to feel supported. As long as i am at tsa, that is my quest. We will work on the title v notions with you. I would like to understand a study to see what it would take. By the privileges afforded title v that the staff tells us they want when they come to in , wet pay increases, etc. Can work on that the virtual policy. I am working very hard to make it so we can afford our staff by virtue of policy Everything Everything they want. The cummings you describe practice of withholding information that tsa considers attorneyclient privilege. When tsa refuses to disclose why it takes an action, it is impossible for us to investigate if there was retaliation. Refusal toeve tsas provide information you need handers the ability to create an environment in which employees are free to identify risk without fear of retribution . Ms. Lerner cure. You need robust enforcement of the law. The law has no meaning unless it is enforced and it handers our ability to make findings will be are not getting full information from the agency. Tsa can have it one way or another, but not both. Have you asked the department of Homeland Security about the socalled attorneyclient privilege and provide to the osc all the information it has requested . Ms. Gowadia we have discussed the matter with general counsel. To exertrtment policy attorneyclient privilege in certain instances. A very small percentage. Rep. Cummings when the chairman was asking about who he talked to, can you tell you tell us who that was, the person you just talked about . Ms. Gowadia my staff has been able to give us permission it f more does joseph maher. Are acting general counsel. Rep. Cummings he would be the one we would talk to to figure out what the roadblock is and why theyre withholding information . Ms. Gowadia yes, sir. Rep. Cummings you have known for weeks this was a deep concern. You came here and it seemed like you were unprepared. You knew we would be asking about this. You know its a bipartisan effort. You know we dont want to be handed with regard information. Ms. Gowadia perhaps a miscommunicated. I fully knew this was your concern. Aware the staff had any concerns and being able to counter resolution in any particular case. Rep. Cummings you all need to talk then. Out and youmr. Roth can come together. Come on now. Telephones, email. Ms. Gowadia weve already decided we will start that. Rep. Cummings i yield. I will recognize myself. Lets talk about the relationship with the osc. Ms. Gowadia we have a legal obligation to provide documents to osc. It was Francine Koerner . Ms. Gowadia chief counsel at tsa. How long has she been at the role . Ms. Gowadia since the start of tsa. Rep. Chaffetz tsa has no Legal Authority to hanover dr. Obligation hanover documents. You give this committee a letter yesterday that says, tsa recognizes its legal obligation to provide documents to the office of special counsel and does so regularly. Have you rectify that . Ms. Gowadia i was not in the meeting in which her alleged to have said that. It is my understanding she was using that phrase in context with the attorneyclient privilege. Not in the generality. Rep. Chaffetz not in the generality. You say there is a legal obligation. How would you describe your relationship with the osc . Ms. Gowadia my personal relationship with the osc has only just begun. I can promise you i will extend to miss lerner and arm a partnership to make sure differences can be resolved. Rep. Chaffetz that is your personal one. How would you describe the overall tsa relationship with the osc . Ms. Gowadia it is my understanding lawyer to lawyer they have a very good working relationship. At least that is our side of it. The lawyers have never said that any issue. Rep. Chaffetz who is steve colon . Ms. Gowadia i believe he is presently acting in a different capacity but he used to be the opposite of counsel. Rep. Chaffetz he was the assistant chief counsel under Francine Koerner, correct . He was detailed this is what is absolutely stunning he was detailed to head the tsa office of professional possibility. Let me put up any know he wrote. I will read this to you. Jeff, if you can join us i appreciate it. I am done being conciliatory with the osc. They have been a nightmare to deal with for the employment advice folks. If they want war, they got more. But the evidence unless the evidence stinks. Go ahead and put that down. Those that sound like a responsive tsa to the osc . Ms. Gowadia no, it does not. Rep. Chaffetz did you fire him . Ms. Gowadia are you going to fire him. Rep. Chaffetz i would fire that cap. You know what . Until you clean house with the legal folks in your agency, you will have a lot of problems. That is not the kind of attitude we will go to war with the osc . Are you familiar with the law . The code that comes out of the opm regulations . You can tell me its all rosy, but when youre chief Legal Counsel who has been there since inception is saying there is no legal obligation, she is not abiding by the law. Ms. Gowadia mr. Tickets, let me leave you with no doubt in the matter. That is unacceptable. Rep. Chaffetz what you going to do about it . Ms. Gowadia i believe he is already been disciplined but we will look into it. Rep. Chaffetz you will tell us with the discipline is . Ms. Gowadia please understand the counselors that work for us also report to the department. I have to work this out with the department. Rep. Chaffetz you talked about the culture. We get culture reports and dhs routinely is at the bottom of the heap. They take the 320 agencies out there and guess who is at the bottom. Homeland security. Tsa. Secret service. There is a common denominator. The common denominator is Homeland Security. In order to enrich the culture he have to have confidence that when something goes awry there is a fair and honest hearing of that information. If you have a whistleblower who believes they have been retaliated against, we need a fair arbiter to come in and look at the facts. All of the facts. You are not providing those facts to the osc. And every employee knows it. They know the deck is stacked against them. They dont get a fair reading. And you know what . If you want to change the culture, people have to be confident that whether you are at the top of the food chain or the new employee going to work at the tsa, if something goes awry you will get a fair hearing. It does not mean we presuppose the conclusion, but when the osc, a fair, independent arbiter here does not all the information, guess what. You cant look anybody in the eye and tell them they had their case heard out. Of all the things i just said, what would you disagree with . Ms. Gowadia i would not disagree with you that a fair and robust investigation into a persons allegation should be conducted. The allegations are made against another employee and they have rights. They must follow through on the process. Mr. Chaffetz ms. Lerner . Heres perspective on that . Ms. Lerner a lot of things an agency can do but by cooperating with o. S. C. And providing the documents, that could help i think that there is misinformation that may be going on and hopefully we can clear that up. But whistleblower protections are key and other things could help, too. The full protections of title five applying to tsa would be very helpful so that there is more of a feeling of fairness in employment action so that hiring decisions and promotion decisions are perceived as fair. But i think to start is where the productions already live. Mr. Chaffetz let me recognize mr. Comer and go through the list of things i need you to provide. Yield back and lets recognize mr. Comber of kentucky. Chairman. Ou, mr. These questions are for dr. Gowadia. On may 12, 2016, the tsa administrator testified before the committee, he was questioned in detail on how he would respond to whistleblower allegations of retaliation. Including the improper use of directed reassignments. I will read you several of the statements he made and i think we may have a slide. Slide one, i will await the office of special counsel, i think it is important to look for an independent review of that to determine whether or not there was improper use. He is talking about a directed reassignment. Slide two, i am very interested in the results of the office of special counsel investigation into the existing cases with the individuals who appeared before you. Depending on the findings, i will take immediate action against that. Slide 3 again, he said depending on what they find, it may point to an appropriate this discipline. They first question, how can tsa Tell Congress will base its responses on oscs investigations in the use to give osc the documents necessary to complete those investigations . Ms. Gowadia sir, in listening to ms. Lerner, i am beginning to appreciate she may need more information, which is why we offered to give her the privilege log. I will tell you that today we have not received any information that says, at least to my knowledge, information that says the information that has been redacted has interfered with oscs ability to render a verdict on believe it is 46 cases they have so far taken up or tsa. 4 for tsa. Mr. Comer my second question do you agree with the administrator that it is important for osc to complete an independent review of whistleblower allegations against tsa . Ms. Gowadia absolutely. Mr. Comer next question a conflict of interest from Francine Kerner to withhold documents from o. S. C. Investigation for multiple whistleblowers who reported retaliation to osc alledge kerner was involved in the misconduct against them . Ms. Gowadia when it comes to the attorneyclient privilege information, we are bound by that through the Department Guidance. We are not in a position to unilaterally wave that privilege. Rep. Comer one statement of observation. I am new, i am a freshman. And campaigning for the past year, people talk about the swamp and they are frustrated with congress. They are frustrated with bureaucracies that are not accountable and it seems like this committee has been trying for a long time to determine and fix some problems and get transparency. In my opinion, it does not look like we have that. I am looking forward to getting some results and finding out what is going on and how we can fix the problem. I yield back my time. Mr. Chaffetz i recognize mr. Cummings. Rep. Cummings you are not getting all the information. It sounds like somebody has not been getting you the information because if ms. Lerner needs information to do what she needs to do, it sounds like there is some block somewhere. I think you need to get to the people in your agency. Im just sitting here listening and figuring out who is not getting you the information. Maybe i am assuming too much. Ms. Gowadia let me leave you with no doubt in this matter. Rep. Cummings it is either you or them . Ms. Gowadia it is me. Rep. Cummings tell the chairman why you are blocking it. Im not putting it on you. I try to give you an out but you did not take it. Ms. Gowadia i take responsibility for decisions made at tsa. When it comes to the attorneyclient privilege issue, again we are not independent. I have to follow the department guidelines. Rep. Cummings i got that, it sounds like you did not know the extent of ms. Lerners concerns. That is what im getting to. It seems like im just listening. It sounds like you did not know the extent of her concerns. Ms. Gowadia this is true, i did not. Rep. Cummings you want the buck this out with the. I am trying to get to whoever is not getting you the information. You just said you did not know the extent of the problem but then you said the buck stops with you. I am saying is something happens before it gets to you, if you do not know the extent of the problem. Does that make sense . Ms. Gowadia certainly, i can ask more questions. Rep. Cummings you need to. I am trying to help you. Somebody is not getting you the information you need. Period. Or this would not be an issue. If i were in your shoes and my staff, if i did not have the information i needed and walked into a hearing like this and had somebody tell me they have not gotten the information and i do not know it, there is a problem , a major problem, you follow me . I am trying to get to the bottom line because we are trying to get this stuff resolved and move on. We have a lot of issues to deal with here and hopefully we can get this resolved and when you get back to the office, maybe you can cut through all that. Thank you. Rep. Chaffetz i will recognize myself and then mr. Meadows of north carolina. Does our committee have a full list of concerns or outstanding cases that you need more information on . Do we have that list . Ms. Lerner if you would like it, i can get it to you. Rep. Chaffetz lets confirm we have a full list of your concerns. Ms. Gowadia, we do expect the tsa to turn over all information that has been withheld from the osc and we expect that to be done by march 10, one week from friday. That information should be given to both the osc as well as the committee on oversight and government reform. If you are choosing to withhold documents, you are making an election to withhold documents from the osc, but also withholding documents from congress. I am being Crystal Clear with you. You do not withhold these documents from the Inspector General. You are being very selective in your application of attorneyclient privilege, which we do not recognize. If you do not provide those are march 10, i will issue a subpoena and you will be on the clock. If you do not comply with the subpoena, you will be in contempt and we will pursue that. I am trying to be Crystal Clear on the process. You said the buck stops with you, but we will call in the attorneys and you can blame it on homeland, but you are the acting director and that is a tough spot you take when your are top of the food chain. He also confirmed to the committee you will provide logs of the information that has been withheld from the osc. Again not recognizing you have that right. You will provide that information to the osc, and this committee, also by march 10, correct . Ms. Gowadia we will start providing on a rolling basis rep. Chaffetz no. How many people work for you . Ms. Gowadia 60,000. 45,000 of them are in the field. You have to appreciate this may take some time. I do not want to leave you with a fact that im trying to stonewall you. Im told by people back in the shop are already working on production. I cannot promise mr. Chaffetz it is a log. You have tens of thousands of employees at your disposal. I am just telling you that is what this committee will ask you to do. We have been asking for this for a long time. It should be no surprise. You said you have a log and it should not be hard to provide it. Ms. Gowadia i did not say we have a log, i said moving forward we will always provide a log. You are asking me to go back to a number you do not want to hear, 50,000 pages to find out what percentage of that was redacted and from that develop a log. We will make our best effort to get it to you by friday, but if we do not make the full log available for the resurrected instances we will start on a , rolling basis which is something we do with the osc and with you. Rep. Chaffetz put anybody you need on top of that, prioritize the safety of the public, but were here to protect the safety of the employees. That is the timeline is what i expect from you. I also need the names of any other individuals at Homeland Security who provide the advised the tsa to withhold or apply the privilege. Agreed . Ms. Gowadia yes, sir. Rep. Chaffetz that also by march 10. You have agreed to provide the discipline of mr. Colon and you can provide that by march 10 . Ms. Gowadia if the discipline has are ready taken place, i do not know. Mr. Chaffetz i thought you said he was disciplined . Ms. Gowadia i said he may be in the process of being disciplined. I dont know if he had. I will give you an update. Mr. Chaffetz you are going to provide government advice regarding withholding information from osc, correct . Ms. Gowadia im sorry . Advice onetz provide withholding information from osc . Ms. Gowadia i will work with the department to get you that it. Mr. Chaffetz lets recommend the gentleman from north carolina. Rep. Meadows i have four or five things going on. I want to come to you and thank you for the meeting yesterday. Obviously you have got counsel here. Thank her as well. Im a little confused. Yesterday we talked about a reset. We talked about Going Forward in really working this. But my staff informed me, thats why i came back, we were again trying to insert an attorneyclient privilege and keep things from osc. I did not leave with that impression yesterday from our private meeting. And i misinformed . Ms. Gowadia i apologize if i left you with the notion i could do something without the departments guidance. I still have to follow Department Guidance. Are you saying the secretary of dhs concurs with that . I will call him. I was very clear yesterday. In ways i was a little bit more blunt than i wanted to be. And they knowledge that your counsel that was there. And yet i thought the agreements we had yesterday coming out of that meeting it sounds like you are walking them back now. Are you not . Ms. Gowadia no, sir. I believe you mentioned you do not think it was appropriate. Rep. Meadow you agreed he would get the documents to osc unredacted. Ms. Gowadia i do not believe i did that. If i left you that impression rep. Meadow we should have a stenographer. Let me just tell you, i told you i would give you grace. I am willing to say there has been a lot of mistakes that of inmate here. What i will not do is have a meeting that went really well, and then have you after you go back and apparently talk to somebody and coming here today and suggest it is not ok. Ms. Gowadia i sincerely apologize if i left you with the impression to give away the attorneyclient rep. Chaffetz who can rep. Meadow who can . You said there was not a statute. Regs you for the rules or and you said it was Department Guidance. I understand you dont have a written. Ms. Gowadia not to my knowledge. Rep. Meadow who gave it to you . Ms. Gowadia the attorneys rep. Meadow who told you you have guidance . Ms. Gowadia acting general counsel. Rep. Meadows the person i have had concerns with i expressed to you yesterday, general counsel for who . Ms. Gowadia for the department , sir. Department of Homeland Security. Rep. Meadow general counsel between yesterday and today ms. Gowadia not between yesterday and today. Again going back to yesterday ,rep. Meadow when did you talk to the general counsel about this guidance . Ms. Gowadia well, before our meeting yesterday which is why i am a little shocked rep. Meadow maybe i misunderstood you. How can we believe the general guidance of verbal communications from your general counsel how can Congress Look at that . Do you not see a problem with that . Ms. Gowadia i do and that is why i am working with the department rep. Meadow let me just tell you if you will comply, i do not recognize the attorneyclient privilege and you know that i do not. Ms. Gowadia that was clear yesterday. Rep. Meadow the other part of that the chairman does not , recognize it, nor does the Ranking Member recognize it. All we want is to make sure that ms. Lerner can get her job done and not be stonewalled. I told you yesterday i was willing to have a reset. But todays testimony is very, very troubling. Because it sounds like we had a nice meeting and then all of a sudden we are here today with entrenched rhetoric coming from the general counsel. Is that not it . Ms. Gowadia no. Again i appreciate the time to , visit with me yesterday. Rep. Meadow i appreciate your time, but it needs to be productive time. Ms. Gowadia absolutely, one of the promises i made yesterday is to reach out rep. Meadow you saying the things you redacted will not interfere with her investigation. That is your sworn testimony . Ms. Gowadia as part of my testimony i recounted something i said to you yesterday, it was to the best of my knowledge at that point that nothing had rep. Meadow you use the qualifier, to the best of your knowledge. Ms. Gowadia when i went back from our meeting i asked my staff to go through all the emails and determine if it was factual to when they came back with two, at that moment, i said to them, from now on, policy is, if you ever read act anything you will provide the o. S. C. With the privilege log. Rep. Meadow let me ask you this. Has the o. S. C. Ever disclosed things that were not appropriate to your knowledge . Ms. Gowadia no sir not to my , knowledge. Rep. Meadow why did you redact it . If they never had a problem, right redacted wife reject it why redact it . Ms. Gowadia multiple parties in an ongoing case. Rep. Meadow why are you concerned . Let me tell you why you are concerned. You are trying to cover up for something that may or may not have been done. I told you i would reset, but if you will not reset and give her what she needs, we will look at this with the chairmans indulgence, we will look at this and ask for subpoenas and make sure we get the information. I am not going to be stonewalled. Ms. Gowadia it is not my intent to stonewalled you and i appreciate that we have a reset in our ability to share information and be absolutely transparent, but i do appreciate that our certain attorneyclient privilege issues rep. Meadow i do not appreciate that. Ms. Gowadia i do. I have to work with the department. Rep. Meadow should i call general kelly . Ms. Gowadia please do not do that. Rep. Meadow you have a short fuse because i cannot imagine general kelly would like to cover up anything. Ms. Gowadia sir, you cannot imagine i would want to cover up anything. Rep. Meadow that is how it appears. Just get ms. Lerner what she needs. I yield back. Mr. Chaffetz thank you. Ms. Gowadia, if the Homeland Security guidance violates federal laws, which one will you follow . Ms. Gowadia federal law. Mr. Chaffetz what information is tsa not providing you . Mr. Roth nothing. They are completely cooperative. Rep. Chaffetz do you give everything to Homeland Securitys Inspector General . Ms. Gowadia yes. We do. Rep. Chaffetz do you give everything to the o. S. C. . Ms. Gowadia everything but attorneyclient privilege. Rep. Chaffetz why is not that true with the Inspector General . Ms. Gowadia they are part of the departments. The guidance applies external to the department. Rep. Chaffetz external to the department . You are part of the United States government, correct . Ms. Gowadia we all are. Rep. Chaffetz who do you work for . Ms. Gowadia the american public. Rep. Meadow thats right, that part of what we did was set of a statute that said we would abide by the law that allows the office of special counsel to dive into these issues. You do treat the Inspector General different than the o. S. C. . Ms. Gowadia in this instance, we do. Rep. Chaffetz do we have problems with that, ms. Lerner . Ms. Lerner let me just say we do get sensitive security information from tsa, we never had a problem getting that. We handle it appropriately and they can mark it as sensitive. I am confused about why they do not provide us with what they considered to be attorneyclient. We can handle that information the same way we handle the ssi information, if they want to mark something as privilege, we will handle it in a confidential way and not release it. Rep. Chaffetz you have a solid reputation, you do not have to convince us. We set it up so you could be the one to be the independent arbiter. Ms. Gowadia, is the white house external to the department . Ms. Gowadia yes, they are, sir, but i dont know if the next question is, do you share with the white house, i do not know the answer. Rep. Chaffetz the logic does not make sense which is comical. That is the problem. You are unique you are an , outlier. Ms. Gowadia the guidance applies not just to tsa. Rep. Chaffetz i think you are a very nice person. You have a host of issues you have to deal with, i think the guidance youre getting is wrong. I think it violates federal law and is unacceptable and is something that has the full attention of this committee, i assure you. We will go to the ends of the earth we are trying to protect whistleblowers so they get a fair hearing. They cannot get a fair hearing if the osc only gets a portion of the documentation, even though the law says they get all the information, and they are set up to do this, and authorized by congress, and work for the American People, and we do appropriate money. Some would like more money. That is the problem and the challenge and there is a conflict when that attorney may or may not have been involved in some of those decisions. I think you do have a cultural problem with the attorneys, both at tsa and Homeland Security. As was demonstrated by the email. I am very curious to see what the discipline was for that sort of attitude and approach and i find it wholly unacceptable. I do appreciate everybody who is here sharing testimony today and look forward to following it up. The committee stands adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] tonight on afterwards, Sophia Nelson on her latest book reclaiming our founders vision for united america. Season of the by michael field, former chair of the rnc. Book providesis prescriptions for turning that important corner to recognize how important unity is . This book is a refresher of civics. I wrote it in a way we need a little help. America is a great country that we are a little confused right now but who we are and what we want. I think that is what we are wrestling with. The unity piece, we have to break this down because the problem you saw in the last election was half the country literally feels one way and another half feels another. Tonight at 9 00 eastern on afterwards. Who will win the grand prize of 5,000. Join us at it about a. M. Eastern on march 8 for the announcement. This year he asked middle and High School Students to reduce documentaries telling us what is the most urgent issue for our new president and congress to address in 2017. We received over 2900 entries, from 46 states, plus the district of columbia, england, germany, singapore and taiwan. Students competed for a chance to win 100,000 in cash prizes in first, second and third place categories. You can log onto our website 30 minutes before the big announcement to view all 150 winning documentaries at studentcam. Org. Whats the enactment of our 2017 grand prize winner wednesday, march 8 at 8 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan. Friday, House Minority leader nancy pelosi was interviewed by