And china. This is an hour and a half. The subcommittee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is thoshzed to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time and members of the full committee not on this subcommittee is authorized to participate. I would like to welcome our witnesses. We will be doing a hybrid hearing and members will be physically present and will be on the screen. So we beg your indulgence for any technical issues, but we anticipate a good dialogue. This is under the radar and the National Security. And i recognize myself for four minutes to give an opening statement. Payment statements are the life blood and banks and businesses can send and receive money without delay and keep the economies connected. The United States occupy a. M. Privileged role. Our dollar is the most widely used in the global trade and crossborder payments and gives u. S. Authority to attach with immense exaibts to impose and isolate regimes that are against international values. We saw how u. S. Dollars and can be leveraginged to respond to bad behavior. As russia invaded ukraine, United States countered putins attack by limiting to restrich banks. As a result, the russian economy began to erode and they were International Pa ria as. And the they can tighten the screws that violate longstanding norms. But the strength and privileges are far from uncontested. Allies and adversaries are taking to dedollarize and cross border money transfers and the plumbing and finance. These are proactive measures to mitigate the economic sanctions and in other instances, they illustrate the ways they expand their ways in the global payment sector and jeopardize the era. The system poses challenges that will require International Community to refine our strategies and trends and keep pace with the payment ecosystem to make sure we are not caught flatfooted. Our panel will highlight how congress how congress and the administration can prepare for alternative Payment Systems to grow beyond our payment capability. In order for the u. S. , there is a leader, we must be ready to overcome both in the near term and years ahead. Global leadership will be determined in part by the oversight and influence. I look forward to know how the United States can maintain its status and defend against threats and give policy makers and National Security the right tools to defend our economy against the threats that lie ahead. I welcome our witnesses and thank them for them to shed light. I welcome mr. Barrr. Mr. Barr the rise of alternative Payments Systems has deepened the interests and ensuring our infrastructure remains preimminent. This has raised the specter of china removing from a dollar based Financial System. I look forward to hearing our witnesses get spue these issues but let me offer preliminary thoughts how we can go to. Congress must foster innovation in our own back yard and dollar payments are quick, efficient and secure. This moves upgrading our payment capability and not resting on our laurels. This processes nearly 4 trillion a day with double annual growth in value of its transfers. Next years rollout should facilitate dollar payments for businesses. Committee republicans have been pushing the fed to prioritize. And we have underscored the importance in cooperation with commercial banks as the fed considers a central bank. If the world is to opt for the dollar we must reswrect the chinese model of using this as a fool for government surveillance. We cannot and should not compete with china. The private sector is key. While we chat looms large, the United States and europe have new Payment Services toll Major Technology companies. I am confident that our commitment to Free Enterprise and the rule of law will pave the way not the heavy handed dictatorships like china. Second, it is essential for washington to stop politicizing the institutions that have made us the envy of the world whether the Federal Reserve, securities and exchange commission, banks or silicon valley, we must resist the call of activists who want to. Just last week, we held a hearing on derisking in the caribbean and businesses are being denied like correspondent banking. This is a real problem. I wish our majority would show a concern where Financial Institutions show customers here at home. In the longterm, sppg of the day will only make country Payment Services and currencies more attractive. The effectiveness of our sanctions and Money Laundering and as long as this is the case, to evade Law Enforcement will be limited just ask the cryptocurrency. And value market is determined and we support free capital flows and dollars give you a claim through goods and services by a 25 trillion economy and it is economic dinism that will stymie our efforts tom escape the dollars reach as long as we dont stray off course. China is running out. And producing urban throughout that country and real estate is tetering and while the the west is behind ukraine. And sway over the worlds financial architecture and that is bipartisan. While china is getting financial governance. We must do everything. I look forward to our witnesses testimony and i yield back. I now recognize the chair woman of the full committee, ms. Waters for one minute. Ms. Waters thank you very much for convening this hearing. And this is related to our alternative Payment Systems. They can drive to conclusion and to the outside of the western Financial System and offer opportunities of sanctions, evasion and other financial crimes. Further, they rival trades in payments potentially undermining the strength of the dollar and our ability to leveraging tools like economic and trade sanctions. I look forward to hearing from todays witnesses on what Congress Needs to do this growing concern. I yield back. I turn now to our witnesses. We welcome the testimony of our distinguished witnesses. We have the Research Assistant for the economics for new american security. Then from scott, global fellow at the wilson center. And dr. A nonresident senior fellow, geo economic center. Next, we will have head of legal and Government Affairs at t. R. M. Labs and Jonathan Levin and cofounder. Witnesses are reminded their oral testimony will be reminded and you should be able to see a timer and be mindful of the timer and be respectful of the other witnesses. Your written statement will be made part of the record. You are now recognized for a presentation of your testimony. Chairman waters, Ranking Member mchenry and subcommittee himes and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today and for your interests in importance. It is an honor to share the panel. I studied chinas alternate and the crosspored and the digital or the context of competition between the United States and china. My testimony addresses chinas progress in these these Payment Systems. And recommends a policy posture where alternative Payment Systems are more prominent. First, we should understand what this is and what its not. It is a clearing mechanism. It is not yet. It does not provide messaging services. On the digit r and b is the digital of the chinese and National Payment structure that is domestic and retail which has been implemented of all of Chinese Society and has the crossborder implaces and at the current stages, they are not threats to the mainstream Financial System. However they are growing in domestic adoption. This is on an upward and digital r and bs are penetrating. Under an ambitious chinese leadership that has more roles for chinese institutions, they could gain with the right dpeeo political positions. In such a scenario, chinese alternate Payment Systems could erode the ability of the United States use of financial or punishment in the event of a taiwan crisis. These Payment Systems could challenge the institutions under the current financial order. The United States needs to respond to these longterm risks today. The United States can, however, craft some policies to influence the Global Payments innovation and maintain leadership in the international Financial Systems. I will highlight three. First, the United Statesgovernment should support institutions while conducting research. The department of the treasury, Federal Reserve of the governors shall designate analysts to conduct global. These units should monitor the growth and connectist. Second, congress should consider the mandating of longterm and updated two to four years of u. S. And thinking for the future of the dollar. This will not instill confidence that u. S. Dollar preemmens many and provide clarity on the United States posture. Third they should adopt measures to prevent other measures. There should be triggers, the treasurys office of foreign asset control should consider financial sanctions or secondary sanctions on Financial Institutions that facilitate these transactions. The department of treasury should study the impact of such transactions given the knockon effects from such action. In summary, i represent a i recommend a policy posture thats anticipatory but not overly alarmed. After asking questions about how alternative Payment Systems are developing, the United States should focus on maintaining leadership in finance and continue to focus on serving the American National interest. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Mr. Miems thank you, ms. Jin. Mr. Dueweke, youre now recognized. Thank you, chairman hymes, chairwoman waters, Ranking Member barr, id like to thank the committee for inviting me to testify on this. Id like to briefly outline the risks presented by the use of virtual currencies. Please also refer to my written testimony for greater detail on my thoughts on the great advantages of many, but not all, of the benefits of these systems to unbanked and underbanked people around the world. It include many alternative Payment Systems youre familiar with, such as paypal and western union, but also hundreds more you may not be familiar with. Such as russias dark paypals, as i call them, including web money and perfect money, have been used by criminals, especially russian criminals. Kiwi, as i testified before the Senate Judiciary committee, was used to purchase facebook ads attempting to influence the 2016 president ial election. The connection between regimes and cartels using these proxies is clear. Some of these systems processed about 20. 6 billion in 2020, this dwarfs the 15. 8 billion in crypto transactions mastercard estimated occurred in 2021. Public systems like changealysis and others are beginning to do peel chain analysis to obfuscate their origins or usage. They to poorly when assessing where the mungos into a centralized Virtual Currency like ali pay or other Payment Systems. Traditional follow low the money approaches often miss the role played by the alternative payment ecosystem, the a. P. E. , for short, and the varying companies that are part of it. Focusing only on cryptocurrency risks misunderstands the goal. This global ecosystem. Combined these virtual turn sis, mobile Payment Systems, remittance systems, and storage value card systems form a shadow economy and provide opportunities for the worlds unbanked and underbanked. They convert one alternative payment from one system to another and another, or working by fiat. Misatribeution lives there, where practices are being poorly applieded or ignored entirely. Especially outside of the west. It should be developed as a discipline as well as Building Tools to understand and monitor the cosystem as a whole. The very stability of the Global Financial ecosome, at least as we are ecosystem at least as we are familiar with it today, has exploded as a. P. E. Has become woven into the Global Social fabric. It provides a set of interconnected financial channels that may or may not ever touch the traditional Financial System. The internet connected them just as swift and a. C. H. Messaging systems provided the original connectivity for banks and other institutions to build our current system. These traditional bankcent rick systems are under siege as the ground beneath them shifts among the awaken og they have unbanked and underbanked as well as the middle class. Chinese and russian new Payment Systems and other western dominated financial backbones. No longer the domain of fin tech startup fintech startups, they are increasingly finding new terrain. Nine countries have launched cbdcs, another 16 are in development. The United States is not one of them though president bidens recent executive order on Digital Assets is a positive statement of intent to enter that arena. Currently the United States is able to monitor and regulate most global payment flows of dollars but tbdcs and other new systems are limiting our ability to track these. The lack of leadership will have geopolitical consequences especially if china maintains its first bans in this area. If china alone or with other countries is able to combine their currency with a viable cbdc therell be a financial problem beyond your ability to regulate. If that day comes, and it could be southeastern than most think, the wests ability to dominate the worlds soft power will lessen. Our ability to live in a rulesbased Financial System will fade with it. Thank you. Mr. Himes thank you. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman, chairman waters, Ranking Member barr. My report is authorized by the Atlantic Council center. Alternative Payment Systems pose National Security risks because they could undercut the dominant throafl dollar and the International Currency system. It is the only currency thats truly global. Theres no immediate or even medium term threat to the dollars dominance. Even over the longterm its likely to stay dominant in absolute terms. Other Payment Systems could, however, threaten the dollars relative dominance. And we are already seeing a relative decline in the dollars status. For at least two decades, the International Currency system has been strictly union polar but after strictly unipolar, but after 2017 it became less unipolar and became close to becoming a bipolar or multipolar system. If other currencies even as the other currencies exist, the dollars end is nowhere in sight but it could continue to be less dominant. Countries are avoiding use of dollars if they can be seized. Countries supporting sanction objectives, short of imposing sanctions themselves, continue to have geopolitical incentives to diversify into the currencies by the sanctioning coalition, including dollars. Diversify case out of western currency is following the attack on russia shows a modest diversify case. Diversify case into yen, rnb, and euros. If alternative Payment Systems expand to involve many countries and private users and cover a wide array of commercial and financial transactions, the dollar will inevitably play a less prominent role than it has in the past and this is a scenario worth considering. With the decline in the dollars importance in the international economy, the economic and geopolitical benefits the United States enjoys as a result of issuing the dominant currency will also decline. An acute weakening of the dollars global role will jeopardize the United States ability to influence, stabilize and enforce international order. The National Security ramifications could be quite significant. Whenever possible, the United States should therefore work with allies to gain support for major sanction initiatives as in the case of the recent sanctions against russia. To mitigate the growth in alternative payments the United States should avoid sanctions considered to be unfair or overly harsh. The United States should exhaust softer diplomatic influence attempts before reaching for sanctions even when maximum campaigns such as blocking a Central Banks reserves, is not being considered. By signaling a commitment to dialogue and cooperative sloughs in the overall use of sanctions, undecided nations are more likely to remain within the familiar liquid dollar system than to sign up to uncertain, less liquid alternative Payment Systems. Lastly the United States cannot afford to simultaneously adopt a hard line toward foes and allies. The sharpest decline in the poe lairty of the International Currency system coincides with an uptick in sangs at a time when President Trump adopted a tough stance against allies making them insecure about u. S. Security commitments. Thank you very much. Mr. Himes thank you, dr. Norrlon. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you for inviting me to speak on this i am humbled by the crucial rule this committee plays in democracy. I am head of the blockchain intelligence company. What is blockchain intelligence . We analyze data from 125 blockchains and combine that publicly available data with advanced analytics and proprietary Threat Intelligence to provide unique insights on fraud, financeable crimes and National Security risks to crypto currency businesses, Financial Institutions, Law Enforcement and regulatory agencies worldwide. I hope that through my written and oral testimony today the subcommittee can benefit from some of those unique insights. I have spent my career working to protect the Financial System from illicit actor, first as a federal prosecutor at the u. S. Attorneys office for the district of columbia and then at the Treasury Department as Senior Adviser to the undersecretary for terrorism and Financial Intelligence. During my time at treasury, every morning i walked path the secretarys office where there was a painting of alexander hamilton. That painting reminded me of what we were there to protect. A complex Financial System filled with challenges and opportunities. Today our Financial System faces new and emerging challenges but also is filled with opportunity. Today we consider measures that will affect the u. S. Dollar and the ability to prosecute crimes. As nondemocratic regimes attempt to create new Payment Systems, theres an alternative. We can enable the free market to innovate faster on solutions that support democratic principles. One places this happening today is Blockchain Technology. We are already seeing Blockchain Technology lead to more competitive markets, grow the economy and advance National Security. Financial Services Enable consumers to seamlessly send money between Companies Across the globe. This could spur financial inclusion, lead to more competitive markets and give consumers lower prices and greater choice. And according to t. R. M. s analysis, 99 of fiatbacked stable coin value is tied to the u. S. Dollar. Supporting the growth of dollarbacked coins operated by regulated u. S. Entities that have security and interoperability can ensure the efficacy of sanctions and spread democratic principles across the world. The native properties of public block chain, data that is transparent, traceable, public, permanent, private and programmable enable Law Enforcement and regulators to more readily identify risks and more effectively and efficiently detect and investigate financial crimes. The nature of public blockchains facilitates the implementation of effective banking. After the march 2022 hack of the bridge where hackers stole over 100 million in cryptocurrency, they used blockchain information to find the money and found where they had laundered cryptocurrencies. These rapid investigations were possible only because of the transparent nature of blockchains. Total monthly deposits into one of those dropped 20 in the month after it was sanctioned. The sus home to people who are transacting in a global economy. The key to effective u. S. Sanctions is to ensure that businesses that are leading in the new Digital Economy remain in the u. S. And serve u. S. Customers. Just as the most significant dmeefns internet age were born in the United States, the u. S. Can be home to leaders of this new economy. As the white house wrote in the framework for Digital Assets public last week, u. S. Companies lead the world in innovation. Digital asset firms are no exception. This should be a clarion call to a race to create and serve businesses in this new economy. Every morning when i walk by that painting of alexander hamilton, i reflected on a quote from the musical, what is a legacy . It is building seeds in a garden you never get to see. This is our legacy. The opportunity to plant the seed to ensure democratic principles thrive in a growing Financial System. Thank you and i look forward to answering your questions today. Thank you, mr. Redbord. Mr. Levin, youre recognized. Mr. Levin thank you. Distinguished members of the committee, thank you for inviting me here today to testify in front of you. My name is Jonathan Levin, im one of the cofounders of changealysis. Were the worlds leader in cryptocurrency investigative and compliance solutions. Were our company, i spent a sumner shanghai. And at that time the chinese financial Payment System was broken. I couldnt withdraw cash at the same bank when i went on a trip to beijing. In the past 15 years, however, china has made enormous progress when it comes to financial innovation and mobile payments. They are now looking to export their domestic systems internationally through the Domestic Companies and through their Foreign Investments in other Financial Technology firms. And further innovation with the cbdc as previously mentioned on this witness testimony. We must we must have a response. I have spent the last decade building chainalysis to improve our domestic Payment System. All this has been targeted at our domestic Payment System and not at international competition. Cryptocurrencys actually mark the first innovation that is consistent with u. S. Values and posing a real competitive threat to chinas financial Innovation Strategy and their bid to own the financial rails of the 21st century. China cannot have a financial Payment System that prioritizes strong guarantees over Property Rights and financial privacy. We must therefore mitigate the National Security risks that arise from cryptocurrencies to unlock their strategic potential. Chain it is alysiss tools are used around the world to investigate cryptocurrency. I want to highlight that the transparency of cryptocurrencies enhances the government ability to detect, and ultimately disrupt, the illicit use of cryptocurrencies. In many instances its easier to investigate cases involving the illicit use of cryptocurrencies than other, traditional means of payment or some of the alternative Payment Systems were talking about. Furthermore, the percentage of Illicit Activity is well below the 3 to 5 estimate globally of Money Laundering in our Financial System. That being said, because of the transparent nature of cryptocurrencies, there are many stories about Illicit Activity. And funds being identified and being recovered. Recently, we were proud to in the bridge hack that was just mentioned, we were proud to assist d. O. J. In recovering 30 million worth of cryptocurrencies stolen by north koreanlinked hackers which i know is something of great importance and meaning for this committee. There are many more Success Stories of how the government has been able to leverage this technology to disrupt Illicit Activity, starting back at cases that i testified in front of this committee about a few years ago in. In my written testimony i discuss Global Trends in cryptocurrency, provide background on my company and how blockchain analysis can be used in investigation. We also delve into the National Security threats that are key to this committee and understanding the risks posed by the systems, including its abuse by actors in iran, north korea, russia and china, and we provide recommendations for improving our response to this threat. In the 20th century the United States builds the most mature Financial System in the world. The guardrails were establish to foster innovation where individuals and neighs have clear knowledge of Property Rights, risks and the cost of transacting. Commerce on the internet gave rise to the largest corporations in the world. Cryptocurrencys and stable coins are providing these services to consumers wemple showed the global index that showed ukraine and vietnam are among the highest adopting countries in the world. We can ensure that we build this by the u. S. Mr. Himes ill start by recognizing myself for questions. Theres an understandable instinct here to really go hard after the chinese for their behavior in hong kong and fie wan and theyre stealing of our intellectual property, all the long bill of indictment. Its an understandable instinct but it concerns me because unlike the situation with russia, where we do negligible trade and have negligible economic tie, the situation with china could not be more different. They hole 1 trillion of u. S. Sovereign debt. They do 2. 5 trillion of global trade annually, 600 billion or so of that with the United States. If we took the approach with china we do with russia, the results would be remarkable. My philosophical question is how should we think about strategically, how should we think about countering china in a way that doesnt bring economic apocalypse to us and the global . And then my much more specific policy question is, if the whatever your answer might be, what specific things should we be doing with respect to platforms like alicepay and others, should it be shut it down . Should it be demand accountability . Ill let whoever wants to take the jump ball but help me with that strategic and those specific questions. Im happy to take the jump ball, though the analogy is a bit lost on me, i think i get it. I think its a great question. Let me answer the first part first. When it comes to global competition theres a big difference between russia and china. We need to think a lot about what i all asymmetric defense. The symmetric defense we have against russia is the exclusion of them from the Financial System. When it comes to china we have to play a more longterm game. What i mean is we have a Technology Race on things like chips, a. I. , etc. Where we need to build things that are the most advanced in the world. But that can be easily coopted and by the regime in china. What i think is when it comes to payments, values on Financial Systems are completely different than what exists in china. Therefore if we can foster a place where there are strong Property Rights, where peoples financial privacy is actually guaranteed, you know, with regulation and oversight, we can have a Financial System for the world that mirrors American Values rather than the chinese. And so i think that as one of these domains where we can try and foster a world of, you know, financial innovation which goes diametrically opposed to the value the Chinese Party has. Mr. Himes so the strategic answer is build a better mousetrap, dont worry about shutting down their product but build a better product. I totally agree with everything mr. Levin just said. In addition, emphasizing that the technology, the capabilities, to build out on, especially Blockchain Based solutions. The system is not truly the type of blockchain system we think of because the chinese dont want the auditbility, the transparency. The ability to provide things like Property Rights that are not challengeable. What the chinese want is the ability to collect information on people and to consolidate that information for their own purposes. So by basically unchaining the ability of our industry to go ahead and compete, along with much better cyber security, so that were not giving up these secrets that were working on, thats very important. Secondly, from the the other alternative Payment Systems, you know, we just need to make sure that the chinese arent able to expand into areas where they can benefit from having geolocation baked into their systems for all the users. Certainly thats something weve tried to do in europe. Weve kept them out of the u. S. Where there are problems with Money Laundering, threat finance, etc. , respond to them and to those systems specifically the way mr. Himes so ive got two witnesses saying, build out a system thats consistent with our values but is better. Does anyoneties agree . Theres work to be done on the pressure side as well the committee on investigations has some great, particularly in intellectual property theft space that. Said really the key to winning here is certainly what were hearing from mr. Levin, mr. Dueweke, and that is building a better mouse trap. Were seeing that in blockchain, were trying to build Blockchain Infrastructure that doesnt have Democratic Values baked in, thats intended for surveillance and espionage. Mr. Himes im sorry, i need to be a little disciplined on time. Thats it for me. I recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes of questions. Mr. Barr thank you for convening such an interesting and timely hearing. Let me start with a, kind of a threshold question. There are twonary tiffs about the advent of Digital Assets and cryptocurrencies in Law Enforcement and sanctions. One is the pseudonimity of these allow criminal activetivety and Money Laundering. It helps ransomware. Its assisting sanctions evasion and Cyber Attacks and the like. Theres another narrative that, mr. Redbord and mr. Levin, that your firms are able to use blockchains to crack down on these . Which narrative is right . Is there a combination . Speak to that for us. Thank you for the question. I think you nailed it. The same qualities that make blockchain such a force for good, decentralized, permissionless, crossborder transfer, make it attractive to illicit actors who want to move funds quickly crossborder. But the reality is weve never had more visibility on financial flows than we have. We assist Law Enforcement in investigating fraud and financial crimes. They can trace the flow of funds in ways you never could with cash smuggling and networks of shell companies. I think the reality is were seeing that play out. There was a recent arrest in a case involving a 2016 hack of the cryptocurrency exchange. That was a 2016 hack. Because of the nature of blockchain, this immutable public ledger that is forever, Law Enforcement was able to go back and use tools to trace and track the flow of tundz youd never be able to in the traditional financeable system. There are certainly ways to move funds in crypto. But theres also more visibility on the financial flows than ever before. Mr. Levin one thing id say to make the second narrative work is we have to change our mindset. We have never had a Financial System that is as open as cryptocurrency. And presents the types of opportunities to monitor for Illicit Activity. It has to start with the change in mindset from our executive branch of how they can proactively go after the types of threats that exist. What we have demonstrated over the last eight years is that it is definitely possible with this technology to go off the go after criminals and find them and take sanctions actions and seizures and really hold people to account. But actually, you know, as the system proliferates, we need to get proactive with our monitoring of the types of threats that exist. We need to charge our executive branch with, how do you do that proactively in an age where this information is out there online and how do you take a technologyfirst approach to dealing with these problems in a way that modernizes the type of approach to Financial Intelligence that weve seen in the past. Let me shift gears to Central Bank Digital currency for a minute. What is the better approach to preserving and protecting and maintaining the dollars dominance . Is it a fed Digital Currency, fedissued Digital Currency, a Central Bank Digital currency in the United States to compete with the digital r. N. B. , or sit a Regulatory Framework for fiatbacked stable coins . To preserve the utilization of the dollar as the worlds currencier harnessing private Sector Innovation to advance a u. S. Centric version of frictionless, crossborder, secure use of Digital Currency backed by the dollar. Which is the better approach and why . Ill take a quick crack at it. Whats interesting about the question is what we hear from the executive branch is theres continued work in the cdbd state. As late as last week we heard from the white house in a detailed, technological discussion, that theyre still working on a cbdc. The your is out on whether thatll happen at all. But the reality is that stable coins are proliferating today globally. 99 of those are, that ared back by fiat currencies are backed by the u. S. Dollar, which gives us an Incredible Opportunity to export our values and principles abroad through technologies of that kind. This is an extraordinary moment when we see that level of commerce happening in u. S. Dollars in the digital space. This is really, its a moment to really provide legislative, legal clarity in that space, today, as we still work on figuring out whether or not a cbdc makes sense. My time has expired but i think it speaks to competing with china not by being more like china but by doing it the american way. Mr. Himes the gentlemans time has expired. Ms. Waters, the chairman of the full committee, is recognized. Ms. Waters thank you so much. Im pleased for this hearing and the witnesses we have here testifying today because we have gained so much already and the questions being raised by members here will help us in so many ways as we move forward. As you know we are focused on cyber coins right new and we are developing legislation because of, you know, the volatility, because of the fact that we discovered that the representation for assets that were being held by some of these countries was really not real. It was less than, a lot less, than what they said. So i really want to know, for mr. Redbord, with what mr. Dueweke has said, has described, can you address the need for the u. S. To develop a legal and Regulatory Framework to deal with the stable coin, the market for which is already over 152 billion. Can we afford to do nothing or delay further federal action, especially on ensuring that asset Money Laundering and sanctions protections are included in this alternative payment med . Thank you for the question. On one hand its critical to ensure that development in this is done right. On the other hand the time is now. In the wake of the algo rhythmic coin, weve seen regulators move to provide frameworks for stable coin. Weve seen safety nets through regulation. And its really a moment to assert u. S. Leadership by establishing rules that ensure the stability, security and interoperability of regulated stable coins. In any discussion its critical to point out that tara was different than what were talking about today, the u. S. Backed stable coins that will allow us to work globally. As we continue to study the cbdc, the time is now to act to provide clear regulatory guidance, clear legislative guidance, to stable coin issuers particularly in the u. S. Backed space to give us the opportunity to lead here so the time is really now in this space. Ms. Waters thank you very much. Since you talked about blockchain quite a bit in responding i think to one of our members, what role what significant role can blockchain play in the identify case of alternative Payment Systems that may not be in the best interests of the u. S. Or internationally . Absolutely. Look, i think, as we discussed earlier, blockchains allow for unprecedented visible on financial flows. It allows us to iden fi not just illicit finance and bad actors but also instances that affect market integrity. It is what blockchain has allowed is the permanent, immutable public ledger which allows us to track trends in ways we never could before. Even in preparing for this hearing, we have a Blockchain Intelligence Team at t. R. M. And they continuously provided updates to me on key insights on data. And this is this would be impossible without the extraordinary power of open blockchain. We have more insight on financial flows, motte just financial crime, than we ever had before. And we just need to ensure as were building blockchain frameworks, just like theyre building blockchain frameworks in china, that were making u. S. Principles and democratic principles into that process. Ms. Waters i want to thank you all for your testimony today. This is so important not only as, i have described, our first major legislation in dealing with stable coins and we know a lot about what has happened with stable coins up to this point. But were moving as you know to consider where were going to stand with cdbc and so everything that we can understand and learn about how to deal with alternative payments, i think, is going to be very important and while i share our subcommittee chairs concerns about china, you must know that many of us are looking very closely at china for everything and trying to make sure that their cooperation with russia, north korea, is not such that theyre gaining ground on us in any aspect of our economy and our democracy. So thank you so very much for being here today. Mr. Himes the gentleladys time has expired. The gentleman from texas, mr. Sessions, is recognized for five minutes. Mr. Sessions thank you very much. Thank you to you and chairman waters for holding what is an insight. And timely opportunity to hear from our witnesses. And let me congratulate each of you. I think youve given us not only good insight, but fair warning of what lies ahead. I want to go back because i think my thinking is a lot like our Ranking Member, the gentleman from kentucky, mr. Barr. And ive changed four or five times in my thinking since then as each of you have spoken. Only have a few minutes but let me say this. Ive got a question and that question revolves around if the United States as we migrate to stable coin and we finish the legislation that the gentlewoman has and we move forward, two questionings. Number one, can we see, other than knowing what china is after, that they are after more data information, of person people which here in the United States we dont want to do that, personal information and data that can be used to control anybody. And secondly, about the excessive amount of money stolen by gangs as we provided our covid relief and other things that goes into the billions of dollars. How stable and secure are these processes and do you have any feedback on that . I guess i would ask mr. Levin, if you have an idea, mr. Redbord, or mr. Im going to say it wrong, duweke. In particular i think i focused on specific areas youve addressed. If youd take the remaining three mines and 10 seconds, perhaps a minute each, and provide me some context. Its a great question. It gets to, especially on the covid relief, it gets to the porous nature of a lot of these processes where you dont have control. The Underlying Technology of cryptocurrency including bitcoin is of course the blockchain. People often conflate blockchain with strictly financial applications but in fact ive done a lot of work with the Health Care Industry where the blockchain was being used, at least in some form to share identity. And to avoid the leaking of personally identifiable information. It would lend itself well to a process like a process where youre traying to get money out there but you need to understand who its going to. Now its not something youll be able to set up immediately in a crisis but if you had such a system prepared, certainly blockchain would help do that. Secondly as far as stable coins in general, the i think what people are sometimes missing when they focus on it, i agree that its a way to focus innovation, focus the american way to building new systems like that, but dont forget its parking lot of an ecosystem. Its part of an ecosystem. It is funsable. Without having controls on that from stem to stern, youre going to lose control quite often. Even with the stable coins out there today oftentimes youll see it be converted out of that stable coin and into something else, might be a privacy coin, might be a centralized Virtual Currency based in russia, then come back in. You wont be able to track that. So petr know your customer requirements, i think, are part of this too. We do this first layer pretty well for who will be part of your customer. Who theyre dealing with does not go as well. In fact there are persontoperson exchanges even in the United States where there are publicly posted requests to buy or sell cryptocurrency and they say they dont need to have identity of that person. Even meeting the requirements of the current regulations, its still it can facilitate that semianonymous transfers at a premium. Its like having your 21yearold kid next door stand outside of a kwike mart being able to buy it legally and a line of kids buying it from him. Weve got to do better. Thank you. Id like to bring down my information to you and have you engage me. I know weve run out of time. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Most interesting. Well worth my time. The gentlewoman from california, thank you very much. I yield back my time. Mr. Himes thank you. The gentleman from guam, mr. San nicolas, who is coming to us remotely is recognized for five minutes. Mr. San nicolas i think this is the second subcommittee hearing were having that has a lot of bipartisan interest. Madam chairwoman, thank you for your leadership on helping us come together on key issues affecting the globe. I wanted to first make sure we have it clear on the record, just a quick yes or no across the board from witnesses, but what im hearing is that every Single Person on the panel agrees that the United States needs to in some form or another, whether its a cbdc or stable coin, we need some form of Digital Currency, is that a yes across the board . I think hes asking for a yes or no, start with ms. Jin and move to the right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mr. San niclas thank you. Dr. Norrlof, i would like to posit my next question to you. We have the Federal Reserve and theyre responsible for monetary supply and a host of other responsibilities in the Financial System. We also have u. S. Treasury and one of their primary responsibilities is the production of coin and currency. As we navigate going forward, what we see is a unanimous need for us to adopt some form of Digital Currency, where should the leadership come from . Should it come from the Federal Reserve . Or come from u. S. Treasury that has the responsibility to produce coin and currency . I think the leadership should come from the Federal Reserve. I also want to say that with the cbdc, i think that progress in this area is especially important because that is really where china can make a difference to undercut the dominance of the dollar. If the chinese cbdc goes forward, well see a very trng push toward a convertible reform n. B. Which will make the chinese currency more attractive for investors. I would also like to highlight that with the cbdc, its not just a china issue, its a general issue. According to the Atlantic Councils we searched, there are about 104 countries that are currently exploring cbdcs. I think the real opportunities for the Federal Reserve to assume leadership in this critical area. Mr. San nicolas im still trying to come to grips with the idea that, what has historically been a treasury responsibility on the production of coin and currency will potentially become also a Federal Reserve power if they are authorized to do so with Digital Currencies. I would also like to posit to the remaining panelists, is there a consensus, a belief that the Federal Reserve should be the one taking the lead on the digitization of u. S. Currency . Or should it be the treasury . I guess we can go from right to left. Mr. Levin, that would be you. Thank you, sir. I think that the question of oversight here is about primarily technology and i would say, one clarification i would like to put forward is that actually we already have a lot of digital dollars in existence. In fact, a lot of our Payment System is digital. Were not sort of sitting here with dollar bills. So that system is primarily, you know, the Federal Reserve is primarily responsible for the technology that supports how we clear and settle those dollars. So it does make sense that, you know, as a Pure Technology play, we think about what the future of that technology looks like and that would come under the Federal Reserve. There are some significant works in making sure that all the institutions that are actually conducting dollars and have access to that system, that they actually can, you know, have buyin and weigh in on the security concerns. I agree with mr. Levin, it depends on the technology itself. Ifover were talking cbdc, a centralbankissued there are, thats a position the fall reserve has always taken when it comes to turncism but when were talking about u. S. Backed stable coin globally for payments that could well be something thats regulated or the oversight comes from the Treasury Department. Just like other technology. Whether talking about securities or commodities could be handled by regulators. I think today it depends on the technology. But to the first question, the u. S. , the u. S. Doubling down on the need for a digital i asset that holds our values and exports those values, whether its a stable coin or cbdc, i think is important. The gentlemans time has expired. The gentleman from texas is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Being from texas, when i hear about Payment Systems funding illegal activities my mind, you know where it goes. It goes to the southern border this year alone we have seen the numbers, expecting to see over two Million People illegally come into this country. Pretty unbelievable. This massive influx of people has created a booming industry for drug cartels and Human Trafficking organizations. Its amazing how much the criminal enterprise have grown in the last few years. In 2018 there was 500 million in illicit revenues along the border. This year thats grown to 13 billion. Ive been to the border. Been going to the border many, many years. Witnessed firsthand how chaotic the situation is for the brave men and women on the Border Patrol and pray for them every single day. The Biden Administration needs to stop turning a blind yay to the disaster. The president hand been down there, needs to get serious about ending this National Problem weve got. When i talk to the Border Patrol agency they say traditionally cash is king for the organizations but with the advebt of cryptocurrencies, theres concern that ease of crossborder payments would cause a rise. Can you describe the scale that cash is used for illegal activities compared to cryptocurrencies an additionally can you give us a recommendation on how to better track technology to better track money flows. The question is a very important issue. The feature of cryptocurrencies is it does work seamlessly across borders anywhere in the world, instantaneously, the same as the internet. People think that that represents real problems when it comes to the issues that youre talking about. However, i would say that, you know, in networks, in my experience where it comes down to Drug Trafficking, Human Trafficking, and criminal activities, there are very established means of moving money and those networks tend to rely heavily on existing Financial Networks of Money Laundering which are very cashdependent still today. When it comes to sort of being able to track this proactively, it is actually possible to look at, you know, the flows of funds that go between borders when it comes to cryptocurrency cryptocurrencies. Thats what my company does, provides that type of intelligence to the agencies that are responsible for tracking down the illicit use of cryptocurrencies, from Drug Trafficking and Human Trafficking, it can be tied become to specific instances. Indeed, ive been sort of, you know, familiar with several investigations where cryptocurrencies have led to the discovery of these types of networks and the rest of the people perpetrating these crimes. Thank you for that. So weve seen a news report for several months that the Biden Administration is trying to revive some form of the iran nuclear deal. Unfortunately, the president has been keeping congress in the dark about how these negotiations are progressing which is extremely bothering to me and a lot of others, considering this country is still a state sponsor of terrorism. So just this week, the ample c. Took action against 10 iranian individuals for their role in various ways we were attacked. Can you describe the method iran is using to commit cyber crimes . Thank you, sir. Thats an important and timely issue. According to opec, the irgc affiliated group is perpetrating cyber crime attacks using known vulnerabilities and gaining unauthorized computer access to devices to extort victims in order to unlock those computers. Whats then possible is due to the transparent nature of cryptoturncies is that opec can, with their partners in other Law Enforcement agency, can actually track and trace those funds and manage to actually lift some of the addresses that were being used to extort their victims, which definitely puts a dent in the financial motivation if there were some to perpetrate those attacks. And so, you know, what ive seen historically is this. We are actually able to track down some of the networks that enabled the ransomware and cyber crime actors within iran that are causing disruption to our health care system, our education system, and targeting u. S. Businesses and with the right tools those agencies can go after them and prevent them from financially benefiting. The gentleman yields. The gentleman from massachusetts, mr. Auchincloss, the vice chair of the full committee is recognized. Mr. Awe kin close mr. Auchincloss you published research titled chinas Digital Currency, the article says, the Chinese Government hopes to leverage Digital Currency with the Chinese Communist partys domestic political agenda. This furthers the belief that the c. C. P. s Digital Currency will have to be taken up at the expense of privacy and individual freedoms. I want to add my voice to what weve heard if the republican side of the aisle that to contest chinas upday care of cbdc, we dont need to rewith our own cbdc but with a regulated mark police of stable coins to let american competition surface the best. I welcome your input on that, how the yates might create the ecosystem and how it might help us compete with chinas digital yuan. Thank you for the question. To answer i might offer a heuristic that i cruise when i think about the chinese system and the american system which is the concept of legibility. Thats an old Political Science term that talks about using simplistic metrics to understand the citizenry youre serving, coming from the perspective othey have state. We can see in the weichih in a warns its dcep, it has many names, that the idea is to have an enhanced state run digital legibility. The idea is to collect as much data as it can on its citizenry. The data over time may have predictive property as well depending on the advanced nature of the data analytic skillset. But this has proven ton a proven to be a useful way for me to think about how the United States and chinas systems are different. On the other side of digital legibility is the respect for Digital Financial privacy which is how i would say the crux of how the u. S. Innovation system works. How the u. S. Financial technology and economic actors work together. I personally envision, just according to my research, the United States innovation system will be a lot more productive if the regulations, first of all are clear. Second, the government is now cracking down or limiting certain innovative actors in potentially doing their jobs or conducting their businesses. And were making progress on Bipartisan Legislation which is encouraging. Do you think its necessary to just to really throw down to this point, for there to be a u. S. Cbdc for us to outcompete what the Chinese Communist party is trying to to by creating an alternative Payment System and dijal currency. I dont think its a necessary condition but theres a lot of people in many different branches of the u. S. Government considering this. Disblit could help us set the table but not actually the production of. Not actually the production. Does anyone on the panel want to disagree with that . I think that a lot of the focus here is on Digital Currencies and i think it is important but i also think that the United States today is not really competing with china. I mean, china is trying to catch up. And they are use various methods in order to catch up. So the United States does not have to have a Central Bank Digital currency at this point. It could become more interesting at a future point in time. For the chinese, however, it is crucial to have a Central Bank Digital currency in order to get where, anywhere close to where the United States is today. Youve written about this i know in the Washington Post about dollar dominance and the chinese trying to catch up. Youre saying now that we dont need a cbdc to persist dollar dominance . If were looking at the role of the dollar in the international system, china is nowhere near the United States. China is trying to find inroads and various avenues in order to compete with the United States. But its coming from a very, very low floor. And could a wellregulated stable coin marketplace in the United States help us box cpp out from trying to contest us . I dont think its necessary, i think it would be more productive to think about alternative Payment Systems more broadly. Like what are other countries doing in order to bypass the dollar . Are they trying to use other currencies, notably the chinese currency, thats also, like, the indian one. I need to intersect. I am out of time. The gentleman from arkansas, mr. Hill is now recognized for five minutes. Mr. Hill thank you, chairman, thank you to the panel for sharing your views with the committee today. Thank you, chair waters, for convening this hearing. And you know, let me say that first chairman himes and i have a bill, the 21st century dollar act which asks the treasury to do the study thatout lines exactly this debate which is what are the conditions present that we have to do in this country to make sure the dollar remains the reserve currency of the world and is an effective medium of exchange across the world . And thats importantand thats e its a major advantage to have things denominated in dollars and we want to maintain that. Part of that would be looking at what role tokennization of the dollar might play and but, professor norrlof, is the chinese r. M. B. Freely exchangeable . It isnt unless we do something that diminishes the power of the United States to have that valuable dollar. And i would say run a huge budget deficit and racking up debt and spending money like drunken sailors puts the dollar far more at risk than this debate about Digital Currency. But i urge our bill to be marked up and passed into law so that we can have a definitive all of government review of how we maintain a 21st century competitive u. S. Dollar. Let me turn to the actual subject of the hearing, if i could, and talk about sanctions related issues and alternative Payment Systems and, again, i commend you for the hearing, to the majority. Since 2014 russias attempted to divert the away from the dollar. They bought the euro and yen and the r. N. B. In their central bank. They have fewer dollars, when we cut them off in 2014, they decided they struck their own domestic credit card company, be less dependent on visa, mastercard. How has visa and mastercards suspension of services in russia affected domestic issuance and acceptance of their card . Who wants to answer that . Yes, sir. I dont have the exact number but its still a shadow of what visa and mastercard had in the country. Whats interesting is the way theyve diversified. In 2014, i was at the hague talking on this topic actually and the f. S. B. Was there. They still had two parts, antichild sex rings, etc. , they were still working with us on that. And antitkrubg. Mr. Dueweke and they talked about how at that time that the russian wet money system, which is now in over 0 chris, was the 80 countries, was the quoteunquote primary money mechanism for russian organized crime. Within a year it was their papal. Now we have various paypal. Now we have various others that are found around the world. These alternative Payment Systems have also then become banks. Like kiwi bank. Mr. Hill let me interrupt you there. Have the secondary sanctions, has china complied with the sanctions in your view to prevent union pay from being a global interchange for those mir cards . So to replace the interchange that they were getting internationally from visa, mastercard and American Express . Mr. Dueweke judging by the russians that are going into finland to use their Union Pay Cards at a. T. M. s, it doesnt necessarily appear so. Mr. Hill thats an area we should talk to treasury about, visavis sanctions and from a compliance point of view . Mr. Dueweke correct. I still think it speaks to what the last two speakers have described which is the cbdc, china, russia, the bread countries need that, one of them, to have a big system much more than we need to have a cbdc. They need a way to do trade amongst themselves. They have these messaging systems that they can use. The big alternative Payment Systems. Ali pay and wepay are just huge. Much bigger than [indiscernible] those systems exist in secure messaging so. Using all of those, if you combined a cbdc with the mobile Payment Systems and all the platforms on phones that people have, youd have a very robust system mr. Hill thank you. I think this speaks to why secondary sanctions and the use of fincen is important, because it lynx all this together in enforcing our sanctions. I yield back. Mr. Hines the gentlemans time has expired. The gentleman from ohio is recognized. Davids. Mr. Davidson thank you the future of money is perhaps the most important policy debate going on in western civilization. You know, professor norrlof, as you highlight, there are over 100 countries around the world studying Central Bank Digital currencies. My concern is that of the countries studying it, im not aware of a single country thats studying a true distributed leger system that facilitates permission peer to peer transactions. It seems like everyones tripping over themselves to find a way to develop a tool thats the same creepy surveillance state system that chinas developing. Centrally managed, centrally controlled, Central Bank Digital currency. That creates a monopoly on monday. Essentially to turn it into a tool for closure and control more than what money is supposed to be. Which is a store of value and an efficient means of exchange. So this is a corruption of the whole concept of money. And thats why i think that the future of money is so important to western civilization. If we see money turned into this, the principles and values that have built western civilization are truly threatened. It might not be this government, but some government will eventually use that power the wrong way. And for people that doubt, that just imagine whoever your political rival is having control of the system of money. Ive been a little concerned as i watched the debate as to the role for treasury versus the Federal Reserve, as a good question by mr. San nicolas. I just point out that looking at our money, the secretary of the treasurys signature is on it. Not the chairman of the Federal Reserve. Looking at our money, it says this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private, and cash is actually the only current truly permissionless peer to peer transaction system. There are a lot of Digital Systems that are working to rival that. I just ask quickly so we can continue the conversation, maybe starting from right to left, do permissionless peer to peer transactions pose a threat to the Financial System . Thank you for the important question. I think the permissionless peer to peer transfer is, you know, part of the way that the economy works. And we have to find ways where our Payment System actually reflects the type of innovation that we have. Mr. Davidson is it a fact . Mr. Redbord so sorry. I think that it is a major part of the Financial System moving forward. Permissionless peer to peer transactions. And can he cannot enable that with technology. I think at the end of the day, the choice of what the reserve currency is not going to be government, its going to be entrepreneurs and people who are transacting in that world and theyre always going choose the freedom to transaction transact without surveillance and potentials i pee tphapblg. I think ultimate espionage. I think ultimately entrepreneur will make the choice and technology will allow for that. Mr. Davidson thank you for recognizing that. I think its an important observation. I think governments are trying to cling to the power fundamentally which decreases trust. I think mr. Hill highlighted why no ones going to adopt, outside of china, people arent going rush to adopt a chinese because its the creepiest surveillance tool developed. They want to link it to a social Credit System and frankly there are western governments that are tripping over themselves to find ways to do the same thing. I think people should be alarmed that the bank of international settlement, the central banker to the Central Banks, is trying to develop protocols that are this creepy surveillance state version. What we should be studying and we cant get the language adopted yet, would be if we are going to study this with Central Banks, it would be how do you do a true distributed leger if you are going to digitize money for your own currency . Right now the dollar is the dominant currency and likely will be for the foreseeable future. But the nature of that, how thats moved, people care about what does it translate to in dollars . Even the most ubiquitous forms of Digital Currency. I say just one last observation on your comments. One is, if you kill the use cases for permissionless peer to peer transactions because of your desire to corrupt money and turn it into a tool for control, you kill the use cases for all kinds of things that arent meant to be Payment Systems. And so i think its an important thing that we protect that permissionless peer to peer transaction system in all the ways that we talk about how to address our Payment Systems and the economy. I wish we had longer thanks for having the hearing and your expertise. I would love to continue the dialogue with each one of you. Mr. Hines mr. Gonzalez is now recognized for five minutes. Mr. Gonzalez thank you, chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. Important hearing. Thank you to our witnesses for your insights. Mr. Redbord, im going to start with you. There are some who believe that absent a u. S. Cbdc we wont be able to implement sanctions or administer effective Foreign Policy. My contention is private stable coins provide those [indiscernible] in u. S. Dollars. Allow for sanctions to continue. Where do you land on this specific question around the ability to conduct sanctions at Foreign Policy in a world of dollarbacked stable points versus cbdc . Mr. Redbord thank you so much for the question. I think there are two parts to this. I think, first, you have punitive sanctions measures. Weve seen those taken in the sort of in the block chainbased, private block cheney based world. Weve seen block chainbased world. Weve seen it shut down their ability to move funds. Ransomware payments, sanctions evasion. Weve seen them go after laz ruz group, north koreas cybercriminals, through the use of sanctions. I think weve seen effective sanctions taken already. I think the second piece of that is to really ensure that were harnessing the power of sort of the entrepreneurial spirit in the United States to build a better mousetrap and thats really where the sort of importance of this committee and this Institution Come in. To really ensure that were fostering innovation, that were encouraging people to build and as i mentioned in the opening statement, were seeing 99 of stable coins or stable funds that are fiatbacked are tied to the u. S. Dollar. And that means already today that were ensuring that people who transact globally in this new digital system are transacting u. S. Dollars which really maintains the efficacy of u. S. Sanctions even in this new Digital World where we keep hearing about the ability to move outside of the u. S. Financial system. Mr. Gonzalez thank you. I could not agree more with that sentiment. I want to shift now towards tornado cash which admittedly im still trying to wrap my head around fully. They were recently sanked by the Biden Administration on the logic that tornado cash is primarily a tool used by money launderers. I think the implication is twofold. One, that the technology, sort of the administration, the technology is inherently evil and used for evil purposes. Thats sort of one contention. And the second is that once funds enter tornado cash, Law Enforcement becomes impossible or highly unlikely. I want to take a second part first. Is it possible to still conduct Law Enforcement oversight sanctions once funds enter Something Like tornado cash . Len i can take this, leadership i can take this, congress mr. Levin i can take this, congressman. It is possible to follow funds through mixing services. I know it sounds counterintuitive. But in the case of the bridge hack, we have just demonstrated that it is actually possible to seize funds on the other side of a mixing service. So it is actually, you know, its not always possible, its not always impossible but it is actually technology that is developed in order to help Law Enforcement conduct those investigations. Mr. Gonzalez on the first point, real quickly, on the first question, what legitimate uses might one have for using a mixing service . Im thinking specifically about Something Like getting cryptocurrencies to ukraine. But i dont want to preload that. Mr. Redbord thats a great example. In a world in which transactions are happening more and more open block chains, people want a level of privacy. We see that peoples cryptocurrency addresses have been made public on social media and other places. Theyre going to want to be able to transact with some level of privacy in those transactions. We see employers who may start paying in cryptocurrency who know the various wallets theyre sending funds into. Theres some people who want some level of privacy. You my want privacy from potential state surveillance. But the reality is i think the key to sort of the question around tornado cash is, a, jonathan said it well in terms of the new capabilities of tools to trace through mixers. But also, its also so important to ensure that regular users are not affected by these sanctions. So on the one hand i think regulators are focused on going after illicit actors who are using these types of services where on the other hand, ensure that regular users are not being affected. And i think that the key to that is having great data to really understand sort of what quality youre transacting with. Mr. Gonzalez thank you. Privacy a core american value. Lets not make it de facto illegal. With that, i yield back. Mr. Hines the gentlemans time has expired. It would appear that we have exhausted the members questions. So id like to thank our witnesses for their testimony today. This was a terrific conversation as evidenced by the fact that every Single Member went over their time. I think there remains a great deal of interest in following up on a lot of this and we will certainly do that. Including on some topics that obviously the chairwoman released some legislation that will be fodder for a lot of consideration and thought. Mr. Himes there was also a desire to look deeper into what if any cbdc would make sense and whats the path if there is one. So id like it thank all of our witnesses for their testimony. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days within to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. I ask our witnesses to please respond as promptly as you are able. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion in the record and i remind members that materials for the record should be submitted to the email address provided to your office. With that, i thank our witnesses one more time and this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2022]