Transcripts For CSPAN Planned 20240706

I have been in business for 37 years. I fix problems and solve issues every day for my client to get they do not have it in their head to reduce the costs. We are scheduled for one hour but we are going to leave time for q a. Turn off your cell phones or leave them on silent. This is being taped. If you want, and he views the interweb, please use the twitter acslaw and the official is tag is acs2023. If you want credit, submit two codes which i will provide during the program. One is at the beginning. It is birch. Somewhere in the middle, i will say the second cle code. You can enter them on the acs page. You can ask one of the volunteers here were email lc emails acslaw clemails acslaw. Org. I would like to introduce our wonderful panel and myself. My name is jennie bond. I use she her pronouns. I am at a global advocacy organization. I look in state and federal courts against abortion bands and restrictions. I have been everywhere including in mississippi in the dobbs versus jackson case. Many of the cases we will be talking about as well. To my left, and your rights, i have the distinct pleasure of instant introducing the panel experts. To my left is lisa tro torres montayo. She is aiming to transform policies surrounding abortion rights and reproductive justice. They learn how to create and sustain their families. She is a Sexual Health and family advocates who has changed her Education Career to look at Affordable Quality Health care in the u. S. And advancing sexual and reproductive autonomy. Further to my left is professor amaya mannion, faculty director and professor of the health and policy law at american university, Washington College of law. She has taught family law and contracts courses and rights in these areas prolifically. She is also a nationally recognized expert on reproduction rights and justice. Last but not least, planned parenthood carrie flaxman, a senior director at planned parenthood in the federation of america where she challenges restrictions on access to Reproductive Health care across the country, advises planned parenthood affiliates about legal issues raised and develops in raising Advocacy Strategies to develop access for health care. I am excited to have this conversation. It has been quite a year. You are around one month shy from the one Year Anniversary of the u. S. Supreme court dobbs versus Jackson Womens Health decision. That overturned roe v. Wade and planned parenthood be casey versus kc and held there was no constitutional right to abortion. The decision also overturned nearly 50 years of precedent and purported to leave the states with the authority to regulate Abortion Access. I remember being at acs last year. I was sitting in the audience, awaiting the decision, hearing from justice sotomayor. The decision actually came one week after the acs conference last year. I will just say, and i will ask each of my panelists to briefly describe where they were on that friday, june 24. That was a salient moment because most Supreme Court cases that are either controversial or have been decided, decisions are released on the last week. We were planning to be in the office all week that final week. I thought, which one will be last . Is dobbs going to be last or will it be the bruins case . Shockingly, every single day, we were looking at the computer. So many people were on every decision day that the pages kept freezing and freezing. That friday morning, i was convinced i have joked with my coworker. I said should be go in, are they going to surprise us . Then i see a release that said Justice Alito and that obviously, as we all know from the elite opinion, not much had changed in the original the leaked opinion, not much had changed from the original. It was a difficult day for everyone in this country. It was the first time the Supreme Court took away a fundamental right for americans. It was a difficult day from our for our Health Care Providers who were already tackling a difficult landscape, and a difficult day for all americans. I will pass it on to ask the panelists briefly where they were on that friday when they heard the u. S. Supreme court had overturned ruby lead. I feel almost like i watched the day out blocked the day out. I was in san diego and my organization was test running a fourday work week we now actually have. Friday for me was a weekend and i do something i dont usually do. I left my work computer at home. [laughter] when it came out, it was nerveracking for me and great that my boss was very understanding because the plan was to send out an evil an email from me. Everyone was helpful and patient with me to figure out how to review it from my phone or read it to me. I was in san diego, visiting my great aunt. I was with my mom. My mother began working in reproductive justice before we had the term coined. As a mexican immigrant in los angeles, she was working in reproductive rights in the 1970s. We were visiting my great aunt who was born in mexico in a country where there was not access to abortion. They are making a few small strides towards access while we are taking steps backwards. Not to say that access is different in those countries but a lot of this was on my mind. It was hard to be with my mother who had worked out with this. We actually did not even talk about it, we just went to the beach and relax. And i had to process this and face it the next monday afterwards. I was in d. C. And we had friends from the bay area visiting us. We piled into the minivan with four kids, a couple teenagers. We immediately went to the Supreme Court, parked the car and went to the protest. It was brilliant. It was literally within an hour after the decision release. It was so small and people were still showing up. But this gave me a bit of hope in an otherwise dark day that people were ready to resist. Like many of us, we have a similar role. I was sitting on my home computer refreshing and refreshing. We saw it was Justice Alito and knew what it was and went to work which was when plant parenthood was at planned parenthood. My colleagues were astonishing in terms of organizing recent months and to be in many instances had a pivot right away. As jenny said, we were ready but also expected it. It was a nonsurprisesurprise. I was amazed by the work everyone did in response. You mentioned the work. I will share since we have similar roles. Not only was it processing the decision that day but that night, i immediately went to file a case in louisiana to block the trigger ban. Trigger bans are special breeds of law that go into effect if and when the Supreme Court do something which was overturning the roe v. Wade. There were 13 states that had these. Organizations like carries aunt of mine and the aclu went into Immediate Response mode. It was difficult to process. I wanted to ask, carrie, can you dive into what you are perv patients and providers were going into and a leading approach within the Dobbs Decision and give an overview of what happened . What the general public did not realize was just how quickly the cards were going to fall after dobbs. Nothing needed to happen for many states to ban abortion. In addition to the trigger bans, some states still had their p reroe bans on the brooks. Some were enforceable right away. State agencies moved to lift some relatively quickly but in some instances, courts hopped in without waiting for someone to ask. That happened in one case. There was nothing needed which meant that folks who were trying to maintain access needed to file cases very quickly. We did not just let those bans take affect. Since dobbs, the folks litigating in the space, there has been state court bans in more than 20 states. Many of which were filed in the early weeks right after dobbs. Many of those cases remain active. There are a number of different claims to be and others have been making in those cases. Many of them are working to establish a state constitutional right to abortion under a number of state specific theories. Whether a right to privacy or another source of state specific rights. A number of states have their state constitution providing more protection than the federal constitution. In some cases, where it was clear that was not an option, we challenged the trigger itself. The trigger bans took effect upon either the Supreme Court taking effect sometime after. There was an opportunity for some to argue the triggers where they were reviling to do process some other way were vague or violated due process some other way. Other ways as a result of this litigation, i believe abortion bans are blocked by injunctions in seven states. In addition to that, michigans preroe v. Wade ban was blocked prior even to dobbs falling and then was later repealed in november. Many of those are not final rulings but they can change to it but to the student citizens of those states, it has meant a lot. But success cannot change that what happened with dobbs is devastating and it wears gets worse by the day. Ban abortionbans abortion ban s happened in 19 states. 15 of them are complete bans, largely in the south and west. Nebraska could be added to the list because as we speak, they are considering a ban. There was a huge blow to access earlier this week when the North Carolina legislature overturned governor coopers veto. North carolina had been a huge access date post dobbs. The new law when it takes effect will ban abortion at 12 weeks and further restrict access to care, in other ways, requiring two trips to get an abortion. Not only banning abortion but making it more difficult for patients traveling to access care. In terms, again as a set in the opening, it is obviously devastating for patients seeking this care. I think that the Provider Community in this country has really just been nothing short of the founding and resilient, as they always are, in working to provide care to as many patients as they can. It is really tough. I will just shared that these are facilities that have been around for decades that had been installed more in their communities. It is where people got abortion care. Their annual exams as Health Care Facilities where trans care was the only the only Health Care Facilities that provided trans care in that state. In louisiana, our clinic clients who have shuttered their doors were providing ob gyn training for three out of the four medical programs in that state. Now, you can imagine that there is no training for medical residents in ob gyn care which is a really frightening thing on top of the devastation of health care being shuttered in many places. I just wanted to shift over to talk about how disastrous this decision was or is for pregnant people and Health Care Providers. Professor manian, can you provide the Broader Health care landscape and what is happening with pregnant patients and Health Care Providers this past year . We know from Public Health research that being denied a wanted abortion threatens womens health. There is a study called the turn away study that found that women who are unable to access a wanted abortion experience longlasting health harms from being forced to carry the pregnancy to term. Two women in the study who were denied abortion care died following childbirth. That study was predobbs. What we know from the most recent data on the impact of abortion bans post dobbs is there has been a significant reduction in the number of abortions happening. More women and pregnant people are being denied a wanted abortion and suffering these health harms. Society of Family Planning, resource organization, conducted a study called the recount study. It said that in six months following the Dobbs Decision, 5000 400 fewer abortions happened each month in the u. S. That is a huge Public Health impact on people seeking abortion care and not able to access it. What we are also seeing post dobbs are Public Health harms that reach even more broadly. Abortion bans are obstructing access to health care for people not even actively seeking abortion care. This is happening in a wide range of areas. It happens when it comes to pregnancy related care like miscarriage management and beyond that with female patients who are not able to get to Birth Control medication because it could potentially harm a fetus. The most harrowing story in this regard has been for patients suffering pregnancy related complications who have not been able to get timely care due to state laws restricting access to abortion. Many of these laws have very narrow exceptions for health or the life of the pregnant person, but because the language in the loss is so vague, providers are afraid to were being told they cannot provide needed abortion care. There has been a handful of lawsuits filed seeking to alleviate some of these Public Health harms from abortion bans. In texas, five women filed a lawsuit under the texas state constitution, alleging they were not able to obtain care for eccentric complications due to the texas abortion plan abortion ban. One of the women described how her doctor would not provide substantive care for her miscarriage due to the texas abortion law until she became septic and was in the icu for days and lost one of her fallopian tubes. There are at least a hundred stories like this in the media which means there are thousands upon thousands of these happening on the ground, in Emergency Rooms, and in Emergency Rooms doctors offices around the country. For urgently needed abortion care, all abortion bans harms People Health but especially in cases of urgent care. The Biden Administration enacted new rules. What this guide did was assert that impolitic can preempt a state abortion ban to some narrow extent and hospital Emergency Departments are under federal law that are under federal law are required to provide abortion care under circumstances that fall within impolitic protections. But two Federal District courts, one in iowa and one in texas, issued conflicting decisions on whether this can prevent the abortion ban and these are under appeal. We have all these legal uncertainties around access to abortion care, even when the Patients Health is immediate and urgent. Because of this, use the ss did a study called the care post to roe v. Wade, asking providers to share their stories on how abortion restrictions are reshaping the delivery of health care to the care post row roe meant they found that in states with abortion bans, Health Care Providers have been unable to provide substantive care in a timely manner for a whole range of complications even in nonpregnancy related cases. One of these stories in the study, a position describes how an abortion was denied for a patient who had ruptured membranes at 16 weeks of pregnancy. The woman developed a severe infection, was in the icu, and the physician described how the anesthesiologist was crying on the phone because she knew if the patient had to be intubated, she would not survive. The care post roe study also found that Health Care Providers face the stress when they were unable to provide care and some considered moving to states where abortion was still legal. We have seen anecdotal and Research Evidence that abortion bans are causing denial of medical care where abortion is the standard of care for treating medical complications. Abortion bans are creating lifethreatening medical emergencies where there need not be any of people could provide standard of evidence based care. This is a Public Health crisis that will get worse because these bands are pacing doctors in ethical binds. We are stuck between a rock and hard place between their ethical duty between their patients and fear that they get in trouble for doing their job. The fear is that more providers will flee abortion restricted areas. Get this has already happened in idaho. Two maternity hospitals shut down two hospitals shut down their Maternity Ward and one factor was because of the political factor in idaho meeting they could not provide maternity care. Going forward, we are going to see more jurisdictions were people will not be able to access abortion care and will also be forced to give birth in unsafe conditions due to a shortage of ob gyns. As we know, the u. S. Has already been facing a Maternal Mortality crisis that is disproportionately faced by women and people of color. But we are seeing is a serious Public Health crisis that impacts not only the people seeking abortion care but any person capable of becoming pregnant. I will just share that as soon as dobbs was overturned, i had a conversation with my husband where we said if we were pregnant at the time, i would not be able to go to some states i litigate in. I would literally not be able to do my job because we cannot be sure i would be worked on. The Center Published a report in oklahoma with violent cases like the one you heard in texas. But in oklahoma, there was a woman who drove him to three different hospitals and was turned away while she was bleeding and told to wait in the parking lot of the last hospital to flee further before a doctor could be sure they would be able to work on her. That is the status of being pregnant in america in the year 2023. These horrible outcomes are awful but nothing new. Even before roe v. Wade was overturned, you heard that so much of Abortion Access depended on where means and where you lived. Specifically states around this country for years were passing passing bill after bill, getting more and worse and more extreme. Either attempting to ban abortion even when roe v. Wade stood or just piling on more restrictions. Melissa, can you tell us about the disproportionate impact this had on various communities before, now, and after dobbs . Thank you for that question. I think it is important. It is important for people on the panel to know that dobbs was one of the first times the Supreme Court revoked a right federally revoked a right. They revoked the right federally to abortion which created the groundwork to an abortion ban. But that is different than access. Many people were living in communities and states that were already in a post dobbs, roe v. Wade overturned world. Or they were in communities where a never was protective for them where roe was never protected for them. Already, it was impossible for some individuals in the country to access abortion. We know the groups of people who had been targeted with greater barriers and institutional hurdles that they had to go over it in order to access abortion were communities of color. People of color, immigrants, young people who rely on public insurance. The Hyde Amendment is included every year in the budget and carves out abortion as part of pregnancy related care. Anyone on Public Health insurance has to pay outofpocket for their abortion. That is a financial problem. You are likely living in states where they have to travel to other places and navigate so many different barriers in order to Access Health care and exercise their Reproductive Health decision. There are specific disparities that have been exaggerated exacerbates head. Dobbs has exacerbated those similarities. There has been an increase in Pregnancy Crisis Centers and an increase in state funding and federal funding for Pregnancy Crisis Centers. These are centers that are coercive and derail someones ability to make their decision about their Reproductive Health economy metonymy. We already heard in North Carolina, which i will talk about as well, where states added so many hurdles to get an abortion. And so many people have gone to hospitals where they think they will get care and are being lied to. They are often people of color. They are targeting black and brown communities. It is something important to around this is to make sure we are working to make sure communities have access to the resources they need to actually have health care, culturally Competent Health care, in their communities so they did not have to go to other communities to access care. You should all be ready to access pregnancy related care including abortion anywhere. Those are disparities which are really important. What i want to resources in our communities to help work towards overcoming those disparities. Last night, i was really inspired. I think we all found last nights dinner so inspiring. But one speaker was really moving among lawyers and that was representative justin who talked about proximity, proximity to different communities, and working together. If, when, and how, ever reproductive Lawyers Network believes really deeply that those who are most impacted should leave the work but we also recognize that lawyers have the skill set and power that can be leveraged to work with communities, in order to achieve those changes we are working toward. Two examples, briefly before i wrap up, is in ohio, we are working to connect them to a Ballot Initiative that is meant to change the constitution to protect the right to a spectrum of Reproductive Health care services, including contraceptive access, abortion, and infertility treatment. We are working with our lawyers to make sure they can volunteer and be a part of the Initiative Process of statebased action. But we are also connecting and making sure our lawyers across the country know about these efforts. I am glad you mentioned North Carolina because that is another state where we have seen really impactful stuff where it had been a state that had access around it for states that did not. South carolina is one of the few states that has a law criminalizing self managed abortion. So we were connecting on the ground organizations to law firms so they could navigate. They are at the forefront, serving people who are trying to get abortion. We are trying to make swear that those who are serving people seeking abortion no there are legal risks, know the liability, and are able to continue to do so without criminalization. It is important to acknowledge there are disparities and there were disparities before dobbs. There still are postdobbs. But if we work to build a network of lawyers who are connected on the ground, leading the advocacy on the ground, that is a key to achieving a future with reproductive justice. Since we are a roomful of lawyers, i will give the second code. The word is cherry if you are looking for a cle credit. We are also a roomful of progressive lawyers and law students and that means there are tough fights and you should not give up. None of us are packing our bags but we also have to deal with realities of where the cuts are and what the impacts of dobbs being for future jurisprudence. As you have heard, and we hammer it in, the Supreme Court for the first time took away a fundamental right from americans. It is said to purportedly return the abortion issue back to the states. It also passed away the substantive process of the 14th amendment. Planned parenthood versus casey was a case about how the u. S. Supreme Court Follows president. It gives an entire formula and is like a roadmap. Now that framework, theoretically, has been tinkered with and now we follow a different case called luxenberg and the dobbs framework. What does this mean for people who are litigating in this space . How can you rely on the Supreme Court or the courts interpretation of the constitution to support civil rights and liberty generally . What are the limits of court as the arbiter of such rights in the future . Carrie, do you want to start us off . I could probably talk about this for several hours as im sure many of you in the room can. But some quick observations. One is that despite the court announcing it was sending the issue back to the peoples representatives, claiming the constitution, particularly Justin Cavanaugh claimed it was neutral to abortion. We always do our opponents would never stop trying to overturn roe. If the case many of us have been following this year is the hippocratic medicine case which was filed in texas, not withstanding the fact that abortion is banned in texas. It was in amarillo, texas. The goal is to obtain a nationwide ban on a drug that is used in over half of the abortions in this country. It would impact not much in texas but would ban more than half of the abortions performed in the rest of the country. The goal, our opponents made very quickly, since the case was filed in november, is to ban abortion nationwide. The Supreme Court stepped in a few weeks ago and issued a stay while the case proceeds. But the arguments were held on wednesday in the fifth circuit on the appeal. Ants were rather astonishing in terms of and were rather astonishing in terms of the panel accepting the allegations of the plaintiffs in this case, even though they are not grounded in science. The science has been carefully considered by the fda in approving this medication over 20 years ago. It has been used on nearly 6 million patients. That is just one observation. Secondly, as jenny mentioned, the reliance on history and Justice Alito this is dobbs right here. A lot of this is affecting states when the 14th amendment was ratified. But the view is because abortion was not a right in 1860s the 1860s when the 14th amendment was ratified, it is not given protection by the constitution. He went on to say very clearly that abortion is different than other rights that the court has protected, including marriage and contraception. You said it is because abortion is different because of fetal life, but there is no limit in terms of the analysis that the court applied. And so, it is also clear the opponents of sexual Reproductive Health care are targeting other things, including contraception. Justice thomas dissent in particular says he does not buy that there is a substantive due process protection. Justice roberts concurred saying he could call out the majority for saying there is a limit to abortion but they are not being clear on declaring that in the jurisprudence. We have even seen this and the threat to the other rights play out. The District Court in amarillo had another case this year that was a challenge to title x, the nation of Family Planning program, which is longstanding protection that minors can get care without parental consent brought by Jonathan Mitchell of sb8 in texas. In this case, the justice actually says something along the lines of the right to contraception being at risk, citing Justice Thomas dissent. I will add that the dissenting opinion in dobbs used a metaphor about our privacy rights. And that our civil rights in general are like a jagged tower. Dobbs pulled out a core block and the whole tower is shaking. We need to Pay Attention to what other blocks will get pulled out. We have seen how the abortion block is shaking contraception, lgbtq writes, racial justice, and Voting Rights will go soon. These are all connected. I have been studying constitutional law for over 15 years and it changed a lot in this time. I and many of us were living under this shadow of the court where we saw the Supreme Court as the protector of our civil right, but if you look at the 200 year history of the Supreme Court, it has more often than not been regressive. This court we have now will not be a protector of our civil rights because it is dismantling everything we built for civil rights. We really need to see how all these issues are connected and to build coalition between reproductive rights and other related issues. While courts are very important and we need to think about how to reform the Supreme Court in the long run, we need to look at other avenues beyond the court in the shortterm and longterm to rebuild and protect our rights. Before we go to our last question for the panel and before we do q a, i want to add, if the courts analysis, no matter what the sentence set of Justice Alito not wanting to go after other cases, holds than it is a roadmap for every other 14th amendment in the due process case. If you look at the emerging history and tradition, putting aside the it is cherry picked, if you did not have rights in 1868, the majority of this u. S. Supreme court does not want you to have them. I want to ask are you a woman, a person of color, a man but you do not have property, that is how little we have come to 2023. Lets talk about Lessons Learned from this past year. Obviously strategies need to change for reproductive rights and the advancement of reproductive justice and the enhancement of protecting Reproductive Health. How can we be more responsive to the history and experiences of all communities . I actually just want to add to what professor manian said. This past year of organizing and mobilizing lawyers in this country in a postdobbs world has reinforced that the approach needs to be multipronged and coordinated. I just wanted to mention about coordinating among areas with intersectionality and coordinating with the reproductive rights and justice space. We need to up our coordination and communication among our strategies. I think if, when, how is he right example of having a multipronged is a great example of having a multipronged approach. There are many people in the country who care about reproductive rights and justice. Being step one is education. Learning more about the experiences of those who have had reproductive oppression targeted at them. And learning, coming with an open mind, recognizing something from a broader context is really important before running out there and spearheading forward. It is important to learn from those communities who have experienced reproductive oppression and why there is a reproductive justice movement. Specifically the term into outlook rooted in a group of black women in the 1990s. Really learning that history. We also have a Litigation Department and criminal defense team and policy team. We also have a health line were people who are getting abortions can get access to seeking abortions can gain access to information. We also have a Legal Defense fund so having the multipronged strategy and immediately being bent, and a longerterm movement and approach. I always try to shy away from the word fight but that is how it feels right now. The strategy that we are in this for several decades to come. It is not just the immediate above both that needs to happen at this time. I really want to remind that this is one year later. Folks who wanted to overturn the roe v. Wade worked on it for 50 years. Personally, i hope it will not take that long to it will be a long battle. It will not be people want a solution right away but it will be a multipronged approach, leveraging all the strength of our community. With that, i would like to turn to q a. I am instructed to tell you that there is a microphone. Please walk towards it if you have a question. You must use the microphone for recording quality because this is being videotaped. Please have your questions be short. If you would like to direct it to someone, go ahead and do so. Thank you for being here. My name is Alyssa Aubrey and i am at the university of houston in texas so i am very stressed all the time. I am also hesitant of my chapter at unh my acs chapter of u of h. If someone could explain about the hipaa privacy rule that has come out . I dont know a ton about it but if you have a sense of what this could mean Going Forward for identities and Business Partners having more control over the information turned over to authorities in situations legally . I can start and also connecting with other resources who know more about this and i do. Thank you for what you are doing and hanging in there in texas. There is a new proposed rule that defined Reproductive Health care probably broadly and would impose limits on the ability of providers to provide sensitive Reproductive Health care information upon request to law enforcement. There has been a very significant and Important Movement toward Electronic Health records and sharing that is generally important for health but obviously poses a lot of potential risks to patients, particularly navigating a post roe world. I think the changes that have come from being proposed are an excellent step. We are in a common period right now and i know that the organization is collecting comments. If you are interested in that, come forward and i can connect you with resources. This is not quite about hepa but i also wanted to mention the shield law that blue states about hipaa but i wanted to much of the shield law that blue states have been passing. I think we have 17 shield law states. They have ruled a provider can provide legal abortion care i need their state. Say they are in oregon and they can provide abortion care to a patient who has traveled from texas. There is some sort of texas action, the shield law would say that oregon will not give information or participate in the texas action. Normally, there would be intrastate collaboration but the shield law says we will not collaborate with abortion that asked not cooperate with abortion will not cooperate with abortion bands. In light of the fact that this is likely to be a decades long fight to regain rights that we thought were pretty well settled, and a law of what we are going to have to do is going to be outside the courtroom. In terms of nonlitigation advocacy, is there salience to the idea or salience in pointing out to people that have not been swayed one way or the other by the arguments presented at that a state or government with the authority to tell you you cannot have an abortion is also the state with the authority to tell you you must have an abortion . I am not sure that is a strategy or tactic we are necessarily taking on, but i would love to mention culture shifting. The importance of we are a roomful of lawyers and talk about rights and recognize this is not just rights the actuality and there are a lot of logistics. There are abortion funds out there that have practical support and are getting folks to other states. It is important for us to not just talk in legal terms the actual experiences and talking to everyone outside this room so we can ship the conversation. The multipronged approach is we feel devastated by this but that does not mean we should not continue moving forward around sexual education and shifting the network on sexuality, gender, and abortion. We will take the next question. My pronouns are they them. It is pretty clear that the Antiabortion Movement has taken a lot of pages out of the antitrans playbook. I was wondering what we should take from the Abortion Movement the proAbortion Movement . I can say one thing. When i was talking about culture shifting, abortion storytellers in sharing their story, i think there is a need i agree it is multipronged by i think storytelling and sharing and humanizing all our experiences is really important. I will pass along if you all have tactics policy wise or litigation wise. I think, given that there is not much hope in the courts in a lot of ways now, and may be a Lesson Learned from the abortion rights movement, not to criticize anybody. I used to be a litigator at the center for abortion rights but we were too where it had been. I think this is may be a Lesson Learned of what not to do. The culture shifting and the education and storytelling is really an important part. Great, thank you. Next question. High, i am alethea. I am a recent graduate from the university of North Carolina. Our initial protections have been tied to an executive order with our democrat governor. It seems likely that in the next election cycle, the executive office will change the state. What are the consequences we should prepare for as a major state provider for the south in terms of providers being at risk for extradition after we see a change in leadership . It is a front area. I do not have a crystal ball. If you have time, i would push and advocate for your wanton candidate to win. We can win on this issue as well. We are batting 1000 when it comes to abortion. We have the president saying the word now. [laughter] and other folks it so that is positive stuff. That said, this area of law will be incredibly fraught. That is what the Supreme Court said when it overturned roe. Whether or not the shield log remains, there will be challenges and unfortunately pregnant people prosecuted. There will be providers and Health Care Providers who will have their licenses restricted. This is unfortunately the reality of what will occur and there will be internal state fights. The only thing i know for sure is there will be a lots of uncertainty before any of this dust settles. I just would add for the Abortion Defense Network a plug for the Abortion Defense Network. It is a group that has come together post dobbs, coordinated mostly by the dashed project. It is available to answer questions like this and many others. Particularly from the Provider Community. I see one more person. Do not be shy. You probably have time for a few more questions. Hello, my name is mary. I am at the university of wisconsin at madison. I know you spoke about the beginning of pulling a block out of the jenga tower of substantive rights and due process. I was wondering if you could see this is a bit more of a question for litigators, but litigation using the Dobbs Decision in a different way like the other rights . I know you talked about district cases throughout the u. S. If this will go into other areas and inform your work at all . I have not seen briefing using dobbs. I have seen it mentioned for other purposes but not as the blueprint to chip away at stare decisis and start due process. The scary thing is both cases are in the pipeline. If the court were to decide to fixate on those cases, it could apply the dobbs analysis onto those cases. That is where i am lance. I dont know if i have seen particular briefing that we may use dobbs to get rid of kohberger felt or something obergefll pop p obergefell or something. I know we have a group of criminal Defense Attorneys working in health care cases that are chomping at the bit to do something. I am happy to represent anyone who ends up work up facing any criminal charges, whether a provider or individual. How would you suggest we get plugged in . I am sure there are already conversations about that and i wanted to make sure we can get connected people to make sure they know. Definitely come up and give us work hard afterwards. [laughter] carrie mentioned the Abortion Defense Network which you should plug into. For those of you across the country who are not in d. C. , we are always looking for a law firm to partner with especially for local purposes. We should definitely talk. Acs also has a criminal defense team and network where we provide training for criminal Defense Attorneys on these strategies. We only represent people speaking seeking abortions, so not providers, but we can definitely lick you in. This is a great example of how it takes a village. This is talking about our expertise in different roles. For you guys to go out there and rebel rows at your thanksgiving table, abortion is very popular. He said this before dobbs and now it has been proven. Talk to folks about this and try to frame in it in different ways. Whatever whatever imagery your uncle thinks about. But one in four people who have been pregnant have had an abortion. You can point to people and make an example. If i were to go somewhere where you got pregnant, you would not be able to go to certain states in the country. That is the reality. Talking to people is popular and something people should know about and care about because it affects everyone of all genders and is about about families. We all have different reproductive lives. We will take one final question. Hello, i am denny and i live in baltimore. Is there any appetite from any of your organizations to litigate abortion rights through provisions of the u. S. Constitution that are not prohibited by dobbs where are we giving up on the federal court for a time . I feel like reasonable minds might disagree here, but maybe not. [laughter] my opinion is that you cannot completely give secede ground. If there is a real value to building a district record that it is also careful. You have to take care because of what the federal court landscape looks like. In this particular court, we know who the justices are in the majority are willing to overturn rights. There are other constitutional elements even with the 14th amendment. Equal protection is one that has been talked about quite a bit and made a brief showing in the Dobbs Decision. I know from the panel this morning, abortion was discussed because it is everywhere. Of course, there are other Constitutional Rights that can make their way through. That said, i am someone who would not give up on the federal but the incredibly strategic about what cases to bring when and how. I would echo what jenny said. Obviously, hopefully this is not a 50 year project but the ark is going to be long. I think despite the subtle litigation earlier, i do not think litigation is certainly not off the table as part of the strategies to restore the right. I would add, given the strategic about going to the courts, there are other places. Academic scholarship is one of them. But, people are developing arguments that eventually make their way into the court. If you look at conservative legal arguments, the original meaning of dobbs came from Justice Scalias academic work. There are legal scholars developing First Amendment arguments in favor of abortion and other reproductive rights. Michelle goodwin is working on the 13th amendment argument, bringing intersectional perspectives on race and gender as a basis for reproductive rights. 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