Transcripts For CSPAN Q A 20130311

To virginia and some scrufffi looking individual shoved a pamphlet at me, kind of like you had no choice but to take it and you and i are old enough to remember mimeograph, the ink came off on my hands and i was getting annoyed but i looked at it, and it said, el salvador, another vietnam. My first protest was against vietnam, and so when i saw el salvador compared to vietnam, i was interested. I ended up going to a meeting, and i volunteered, shoving those same mimeograph sk ed pamphlets into peoples hands trying to elingt people. Who handed out those pamphlets . The committee for solidarity with the people of el salvador, i worked with them for a few months, but then i thought since the Reagan Administration was taking a regional approach to south america, i thought their approach should be regional and they disagreed. Where did the money come from . I wasnt paid. But for the organization . I think it was all donations. But im not sure, i was just a volunteer. Who cared about el salvador back then . Reagan, if you remember, was drawing the line against communism anywhere he could and in his view, nicaragua was a communist state, cuba is a neverending thorn in the side of american politics and salvador, the revolutionary movement had a rhythm after several elections in a row were overthrown and on the reagan side they wanted to draw the line against communism and it was in Central America. I was a hippie out of the 1960s and 1970s, as i said, my first protest was vietnam. When i learned again that the u. S. Was intervening in the internal politics of countries that should not matter to the United States in those terms, it brought up my frustrations about the vietnam war and the civil rights movement, the reemergence of the Womens Movement and made me realize that i really believed i had to to something to try to shift u. S. Policy. I want to ask you a question that youve never been asked before. Sure. What impact did the Nobel Peace Prize have on you . It was certainly a fabulous tool for my work. You havent been asked that before, have you . Never. Never. I received it individually but also the International Campaign to ban land mines which i was founding coordinator of also received it. I believe the work of that campaign as the engine, the push to push government to do what they should have done anyway, ban land mines, deserves recognition. What year . It was in 1997. Go back to 1997. Sure. When was the first time after you received this award that you said, oh, my goodness. This matters to people. The noble prize the nobel rise . Yeah. And how did you see it . You know, i hadnt ever really thought about it much except a woman i knew from Central America had received it in the early 1990s, a mayan indian who had been involved in the struggle, many of her Family Members were killed. And the person responsible for a all of that is now standing trial for crimes against humanity, which is amazing. But i didnt think about it much. I think the intervention of internet and all of that has made an understanding of the peace prize more accessible than it was. I never really thought about it. Then all of a sudden, this thing happens, all of a sud, people who would talk to anyone in the campaign before only wanted to talk to me. I found it intrusive. I found it very disturbing. I thought it was demeaning to my colleagues in the campaign. We were all working together and why i was all of a sudden was my voice the only one they wanted to hear . So i had a very hard time, actually, adjusting to the prize. It took me five or six years. What did you do to adjust . I spent quite a few years very confused, to be quite honest, when i would go home after speaking, sometimes i would just cry in frustration and confusion. I knew about land mines, i knew about building a campaign, i knew about building a Global Coalition to bring about change. But that doesnt mean that suddenly youre mother theresa, that youre saintly, that, you know, you can answer anything in the world by virtue of this wisdom that falls upon you with the peace price, thats absurd. Who picks it . Its a committee of five in norway. I think their term in office or whatever is about five years and they can serve on the committee two terms in a row. Those phi people plus the secretary of the Nobel Committee there. There are nominations made every year, at the beginning of the year, they have to be in by february 1. Then the committee meets, i think five times in the year rm i learned these things after i met the committee, of course. And i liked the ones that, you know, i met. Then they meet about five times a year. And the first meeting is to just discard all the ridiculous nominations. Some truly are absurd. Then they start to narrow it down to nominations that they think have some merit and they hand them out to researchers. Who nominated you . Lots of people. We found out after the fact, one person i do know who nominated me and the campaign was congressman jim mcgovern of massachusetts. He and jill smoke lee joe smoke lee, the late joe mokley, had been strong supporters of our work in el salvador. I knew him personally as a congressperson and whenever we were having trouble, they were always there. You know. I have a great affection for him. Back in 1997 when the announcement came out, were you anticipating it . We knew we were front runners. How did you know . We knew beed been nominated. Mcgovern wasnt the only one, there was a woman from sweden who i think at the time was the head of their Foreign Relations committee, she had nominated us. Then i heard later that others had as well. And when we were in norway negotiating the treaty, which was in september of 1997 was the last phase of the negotiation of the mine ban treaty, journalists started coming up to us and saying how do you feel abouting if being a frontrunner and our response was, were not here to discuss the peace prize. Weve got a picture well put on the screen, where is that picture . You can see it back there. Thats my house in vermont. Thats the morning that we received the call. And about 4 00 in the morning. My now husband and i were in bed, we had just celebrated the night before, my 47th birthday with my family. And all of a sudden the phone rings and the guy says, in a nor bee january accent that he was from Norwegian Television and he wanted to know where id be in 40 minutes. And i wanted to swear at him actually, what the hell . And i said, im in bed, ill be here. He called back and then he said, ive been authorized to tell you that Jody Williams and the International Campaign to ban land mines is receiving the Nobel Peace Prize for 1997. It was stunning. I jumped up and pulled on the same clothes that we had on the day id had on the day before. I had this hideous vision of some photo journalist out in a tree in my yard with a telephoto lens, you know, i wanted clothes on. And i didnt want photos that people would be screaming but put your clothes on. So just pulled on what i had by the bed and went downstairs and there were already five journalists sitting on the stoop and it was 5 00 a. M. I invited them in, gave them coffee, we started talking and they were the last ones i let in the house that day. I want to show some video of you from a documentary, you and me, you were interviewed by horowitz. This shows a different side of Jody Williams. Sure. The report cannot be considered comprehensive, objective, authentic, and accurate and suffers from the lack of credibility. My last point is on credibility, its not about ours, its ability yours. The world hung its head in shame and said never again, too many of us have lost hope that never again seems to have no applicability whatsoever in darfur. When will the world hang its head in shame again and our job is to attempt to try to alleviate the suffering of the people of darfur who are being raped, pillaged, and burned while political wrangling goes on here in the hallowed halls of the United Nations. Thank you. There are 20 or 30 recommendations and one was implemented. Not a great batting average. Correct. The reason they send one is not because they particularly care about the report or tar fur they did it because they have to show the council does something or it wont continue to exist. Horowitzs take wasnt very popular. Thats the first time ive seen that tape. I dont generally watch myself. Its too easy to secondguess what you might have said, could have said, should have said. I have great dismay about the Human Rights Commission which is what i was reporting on darfur. There are other parts of the u. N. I have problems with. But there are some wonderful human beings in the United Nations that are trying really hard to make a difference. You know, the body didnt exist, some body should exist like it. I think it is in desperate need of reform. I think that the Security Council as it stands now is a ridiculous throwback to the cold war. I dont think it reflects, you know, the power and the powerful emerging economies and militaries if you will in todays world. Particularly the Human Rights Commission. I have no respect whatsoever. Put this in context from your perspective. Recently when the state of the Union Message was delivered by the president of the United States and the answer on the other side or another point of view was given, they ended, at some point in the speech they said, the United States is the greatest country in the history of the world. Some people believe that. What about you . I believe the United States has many fantastic qualities. I do believe that maybe many people have the possibility of pulling themselves up by the boot straps, i think every year that is less and less and les probable. But the United States especially in foreign policy, which is what ive worked on for years and year, is not a great nation. Its an interventionist state, its extremely afwressive militarily. We mess with other peoples politics in ways that i cant imagine americans tolerating. Imagine if some country invaded us to bring their system of government the way we did in iraq, for example. Can you imagine americans sitting there and thinking thats ok . And yet somehow we still in this country have a myth that people are thrilled when we invade them. Thats insane. I believe 99 of the time, we create new enemies and i think especially now with the drone warfare going on under mr. Obama, which is much worse than under bush, which i never expected, i think were creating new enemies for the future. What did you think of president obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize . Well, i said this before in public so i dont have a problem saying it again. I dont think it was his problem so to speak, i think the committee made a gross error of judgment. He has not done anything to deserve it at that point in time and the terms of nobels will are quite clear that it should go to a person who in any given year has done, you know, has given Great Service to disengage armies or held a global peace conference to bring about change. Mr. Obama at that time had done nothing of that sort. In fact, he was engaged in two wars which i thought no matter what he had done if youre a sitting head of state engaged in war how can you get the Nobel Peace Prize. When he came out of the white house and said he didnt think he deserved it, i was ready to clap. I thought that was outstanding. I would have clapped if he had then said therefore i cannot accept it at this time. I think thats what he should have done. What do you think of al gore getting the Nobel Peace Prize . You know, i think that the environment is a critical part of security and peace. I think people understand it that way better than they used to, you know, what the elements of sustainable peace are, not just the absence of armed conflict. Its many, many different el 789s. I think we definitely are seeing Global Warming and Climate Change and its displacing populations, causing new myfwrations and now conflicts. So i think its a worthy recognition. There there are many who are agitated that the committee keeps sort of expanding the vision of what peace is. There are some who are very adamant that it should be strictly limited to those who really deal with armies and war, not, you know, peace more broadly defined. Im somewhere in the middle. I have a book on my lap, your picture son the cover, a title of it is my name is Jody Williams a vermont girls winding path to the Nobel Peace Prize. Why did you want us to know all of this about your personal life . I have a problem with the idealizing of human beings. The glorification, deify case in some defy case in some deification in some ways. We use the example of Martin Luther king, because we know him here in the United States but he was a human being like any other human being. He had his strengths, his weaknesses, his flaws. Martin luther king was certainly an amazing leader but he there were thousands and millions of people also in that struggle. This is this kind of goes back to what i was saying in the beginning of our discussion that in the land mine campaign we were thousands of millions and if everybody saw us as the same, suddenly i get the peace prize and they only want to talk to me. When Martin Luther king became Martin Luther king and is now a monument on the mall, which i think he deserves, thats not the issue, but suddenly that individual or mandela or the dalai lama who is in a category of his own since he is sort of god, what normal human being, what ordinary person can ever believe that they could accomplish leadership like that . And i think that does a huge disservice to both the possibility of change and to ordinary people recognizing that we each have power and we can with all our flaw well, can contribute to change. Im flawed. Early in the book, you tell us about brother steve. Where is steve today . My brother has always lived with my parents, except for two times he was institutionalized, one i write about in the book because he was so violent we were concerned he would kill a Family Member or himself. But hes still living with my mom in environment. Still. Did you ask him before you wrote this about him . No. Why not . I didnt ask anybodys permission. This is my perception of my life. I didnt ask my mom, she was very nervous and i promised her i wouldnt say anything that would, you know, make her friends make fun of her or whatever. New york i didnt ask permission. Not of Bobby Mueller who hired me to do the land mine campaign, nobody from el salvador, i didnt ask permission. Its my view of the things in my life that affected me that made me very, very human but also made me determined to try to help everybody in the world, including myself. Im not a saint. What did you tell us in the book about your brother steve . He was born deaf in 1947, a time when the philosophy of teaching the deaf was to force them into the hearing world. Which meant that we were not taught sign. Which meant that at the dinner table, for example, pretty much all we could say to him was pass the salt, you know things you could point at. It meant that he was really not involved in daily conversations because we had very rudimentary, homemade it also meant that as he became more and more ill with what we finally understood to be schizophrenia, there was no real way to talk to him about what he was feeling. So he would just get brutally angry. If i think about it too much, and i think i write that in the book, i have a really hard time. You have a hard time just thinking about my brothers life. Its sort of a life not lived. Hes extremely smart, as mr. Schizophrenics are. But his life was so truncated at first by the lack of communication, then schizophrenia, i just, you know but you paint a picture of him with a knife in his hand. Did you ever think he was actually going to kill somebody . I was scared as hell when my mom and i ran out of the house. I dont know. You know. It was worse later, actually. The part that i didnt write about because by then i was in Central America and land mines, my parents tried at one point to get him in the in assisted living and it was at the insistence of my sisters, my other brother, myself, you know, when you die, if he isnt capable of managing life, what are we going to do . They tried it with a they tried, it was a total fiasco. He started threatening neighbors, you know. So that did not work. He had to be institutionalized again, i think, for another year. Then he came back home to mom and dad, finally, after that, he was correctly diagnosed and got medication. So you know, hes a pair noid schizophrenic. You group up grew up where . I was born in the big metropolis of poltney, vermont, midway up the state near new york. Then we moved to brattle bro, vermont to brattleboro, vermont, we went there so my brother could go to the school for the deaf. And mom and dad did what . My mom, well was a mother of, at that point, right after we moved, five children my father did a variety of jobs. He had owned his own Grocery Store in poltney that he had to sell to move. And he ended up getting a job as a traveling salesman with general electric. So he would go out for the whole week and my mom would be left home, at that point with, tissue at that point, we were four, four kids. And she had no break, no car, she had a nervous breakdown and my dad had to quit traveling. He worked for a vending company, ultimately he bought that and mom came back from laying in bed for a year essentially. What politics did they follow . Democrat. My father was extremely antirepublican. Viewing it as the party of the rich. The party that didnt care about the needs of how i describe my family is living on the rough edges of the middle class. Very rough edges. And my father was treated like dirt by people in the depression who were handing out the government money. I dont know, i cant remember what it was called then, to support people who had no work and they happened to be republicans and my father despised republicans. At least the party. He wasnt irrational totally but he despised the party and had no room for anyone who didnt understand that there was structural, you know, inequality and structural reasons for poverty so he was pretty outspoken about that. I think i got a lot of my dad. You say you walked awhat fre away from the catholic church. What year . I was 17 years old. Why . I, you know, i have a hard time with being told that i have to accept something on faith even though my reason doesnt just cant go there. For example, i had to take catechism, like many catholics who didnt go to catholic school. When i got into my teens i started asking the priest about intention. You know, you have to intend to sin in order to sin. In theory. Soy so i said to him, why is Birth Control a mortal sin, which means if you die you go to hell, and the rhythm method ok . When in both instances you were intending to avoid pregnancy. To me thats totally logical. Why is the pill bad, other ways ok . And he the answer was typical of the church that you, you know, you have to accept what god gives you. My thought was if god wants to give you a baby, a little pill isnt going to get in his way. So we fought about that a lot, a lot, a lot. And my other one was the infallibility of the pope. I thought it was patently absurd. How could the pope be infallible when some had had babies. When up until i think like the 12th or 13th century, im not quite sure of the date, priests could marry. And then all of a sudden they had to be celibate, they couldnt marry, it had nothing to do with suddenly the pope hearing from god they couldnt marry, it had to do with property. Where are you in your religious life today . That makes me laugh. Archbishop tutu and i have had some discourse on that. He kind of wants to convert me in a way. Hes very sweet, i love him. On the other hand, his holiness the dalai lama and i were at an event together in hiroshima and he is very amusing. Helenes over to me and he says, jody, scientists believe that buddhism is really atheism. So i said, oh, my god, i must be a buddhist. And he said the reason is because buddhists dont believe in god. They believe that, you know, every human being has the possibility of, you know, being great. Being energy. All the good things that christians or muslims or hindus are supposed to be. Because of their religion. 1998, here you are with the dalai lama. Yeah. One of my closest friends had an extremely unpleasant encounter with two men who i wish i could call gentlemen who left her beaten and naked in the street. For many years i had the greatest hope that i would run into them sometime and do the same to them or worse. Then i got involved in trying to stop the violence in Central America and watched whats happened to people over time who only sought violent revenge against people who have done things to them or people they love. You become them. Where are you there . I think it was university of virginia. I think there were 11 of us peace laureates invited to a conference at the university of virginia. That was my First Encounter with the dalai lama. How do the peace laureates talk to one another that might be different than the ordinary person . When im i dont know. I know how i talk to them. But i mean you get an entree to people you wouldnt otherwise. Oh, sure. Well thats one reason why in 2006, six women, nobel peace laureates came together and created the nobel womens initiative. Didnt you lead that . I have played a large role in fund raising for it. Why do you want to separate men from women . Its not separating. The problem in todays world, as we are all too aware, is that women are still unequal. I would even argue were not equal in the United States in many ways. If you look at the number of women in the senate, in the house, or on corporate boards. But globally, women are less than unequal. And we believe that by coming together as women and using the Peace Process to, you know, highlight the work of women around the world working for sustainable peace with justice and equality, we could, you know, maybe lift lift up is terrible. We could help women everywhere make change which is good for us all. It isnt that we want to be men or think men are awful. There are awful women, there are awful men. But it is irrefutable that women suffer more in this world. Violence against women is a global pandemic. Which is one of the reasons why we spearheaded an International Campaign to stop race and gender violence and conflict. Just like in the land mine campaign, bringing organizations together because together we have a better chance at changing the world. And it wasnt to exclude men. But i point this out all the time. In the history at the time,s we in the history since we established the nobel peace initiative, there have been 12 women. Something like 90 men. Theres never been a nobels nobel mens initiative. They have never come together. I think its indicative of how women tend, not always, but how we tend to think about how we together, you know, can make a difference. And i have to be, you know, totally honest, after the nobel womens initiative, i really, really became happy that i had the peace prize. I feel now not only is it a tool for my work but im sharing it with women all over the world. It makes sense to me now. You have lived for, you know, more than a couple of days, in what places . In other words you lived in environment for how many years . 25. I didnt leave until i was 25 years old. I thought i would never leave vermont. Went to the university of vermont . Yes. Studied what . Psychology after switching my major five times because immaterialed to be everything and nothing. How many times have you been married . Bruce is my second husband. I was married for a minute to my high school sweetheart, we shouldnt have married. I didnt love him by the time we married. Didnt realize i could jest get an apartment and get a job. I was afraid, i got married. Thraud . Claude . Yes. What does he think about it now that hes mentioned here . He is ok with it. Hes not a bad guy, we were wrong. He is married, im trying to think, the last i knew, i was trying to figure out how old his son is, i think 25. Exactly how long were you married . Three years. Ok, lets go back to the first question, vermont for 25 years and then where else have you lived . I lived in mexico for two, then i came to washington, d. C. Because i wanted to do International Work and washington was international. I did not have an idea of what it meant to do International Work. I lived, you know, i refused to move to nicaragua when i was working on nicaraguan hunger. I refused to move to salvador but i spent months in each country over a period of years so i felt like i knew them quite well. Where else . Anywhere else . Thats it. You live now where . In fredericksburg, virginia, and westminster, vest vermont. You talked about coming to washington, what were going to show next is a piece of washington and it will give you an opportunity to discuss something that is near and dear to your heart. S the state department spokesman. This administration took a policy review and we decided that our land mine policy remains in effect. Why . Why . I think were one of only two nations, somalia is about to sign it, right . So were going to be the only nation in the whole world who doesnt believe in banning land mines. Why is that . Im not sure about that. We had a policy review and we determined that we would not be able to meet our National Defense needs nor our security commitments to our friends and allies if we signed the convention. Ian kelly in 2009. What was he saying there and how did that impact you . I wished i could say i was shocked, shocked, shocked. Im not. This is the obama administration. I know. I know. Whats he saying . Hes saying theyre not going to sign the mine ban treaty that u. S. National security depends on the antipersonnel land mines. The hypocrisy of that is outstanding to me because the United States has not exported antipersonnel land mines since 1992. We havent used them the first gulf war, 1991. We havent produced them since the mid 1990s. Weve destroyed millions of our stockpile. In other words, we are obeying the mine ban treaty. Why the hell do they continue to refuse to join the treaty . Let me ill get back to that but we didnt sign the kyoto treaty. We dont like the fact that theres an International Court of law, all of that. What is it about this country that when these kind of things come up, they say no . I think were the only no, were not the only. But george w. Bush unsigned a treaty, one of the nuclear treaties. The United States believes its exceptional, meaning everybody except us. Meaning that if other nations can be bound by treaties, thats great. You know, it restricts what they can do. But since the United States considers itself to be the guarantor of freedom and, you know, freedom, security, etc. , they want to believe that they need to be able to do anything they want in order to, you know, keep us all safe. What are the numbers now about land mines and since youve been involved in it, how many have gone away, how much money is spent, who is selling them around the world . Goodness. I should have looked that up. I havent worked on the campaign on a daily basis since early 2000s, but i can tell you that there are now 161 nations that are part of the treaty. All of the western hemmings fear, except the United States and cuba, all of nato, except the United States, which is totally mindboggling, especially when the u. S. Says it needs land mines to protect its allies. There have been no recorded sales of land mines since the treaty. Even cupries like china and russia, which have not signed, have stopped producing land mines for export. Recognizing the humanitarian concern. How many are still out there . Nobody knows. In the early days, the u. N. Kind of pulled a figure out of the air and said there were 100 million in the ground. Nobody knows how many there really were. No one is quite sure how many there at there are at this point. However, stockpiles have been destroyed, that will never be in the ground. I think were up to like 60 million land mines have been destoyed from stockpiles that will never be in the ground. 20 countries have now declared themselves mine free, meaning their national demeaning programs have gotten all the mines they could find. That doesnt mean there wont randomly be a mine thats inevitable. As i said theres been no major exporting of mines. I think my husband, who is the chair of the land mine Campaign Said that only about a dozen countries retain the right to produce mines but Something Like flee like three might be producing. How many people die a day . There used to be 20,000 people affected every year, were now down to 4,000. Thats still too many. And where are they dying of land mines . Afghanistan, cambodia, angola, croatia. Colombia. The farc lays mines. The farc is where . The revolutionary forces in columbia colombia that have been battling the government for 50 years. In the beginning when you got involved in this with paid the bills . I was asked to create the campaign by the Vietnam Veterans of America Association under Bobby Mueller, their president. They paid my salary. I helped raise money for my salary. Who funded them . The u. S. Government funded some of their work in cambodia. Foundations, individual donors like most nongovernmental organizations. Toughest part of your effort to ban land mines . I always say that it was so easy compared to stram america that i cant find difficult but thats too glossy a picture, i guess. I think when the c. C. W. , convention on conventional weapons, which came about after the vietnam war and tied to control things like napalm, land mines, but did not ban them, so we used that treaty as a tool in the first couple of years of the land mine campaign, an organizing tool. Getting nongovernmental organizations in Different Countries involved, pressing their government to amend that treaty to ban land mines and they wouldnt. So for two and a half years we were there pushing and screaming and shoing at all the meetings they had and they did not change that treaty. And if the canadian government had not come out of that experience dedicated to the belief that within one year we could negotiate a mine ban treaty, which they challenged the world to do in ottawa in ock of 1996, we in october of 1996, we wouldnt have a treaty. That was one of those moments that, if they hadnt, im not sure what would have happened. At the same time we didnt know they were going to do it until they did it, the day they did it. So i dont know. If somebody wanted to get an example of a genuine, cardcarrying liberal, are you it . I think im to the left of liberal. And what can you give us some markers there, what makes somebody a liberal . We had this debate on this network. Im not sure i can say what makes a liberal. I san say what motivates me. Fine. I am burning with righteous indignation at injustice. I was at a womans peace conference in santa fe years ago, i tend to get highly impassioned when i speak and during the question and answer period a woman in the back, you know, raised her hand and said, Jody Williams, how can you be working for peace when youre so angry . You know, can you be an angry person and really be working for peace . My response was, you know, im not angry. Angry is like if somebody bugs me and i scream at them or i stub my toe because im the clumsiest human on the planet and get mad at the table. I am full of righteous indignation. Im angry at injustice. Let me interrupt just a second. Whats the difference between your righteous indignation and George Herbert walker bush and george w. Bush both involved in the iraqi situation, werent they righteously indignant about the injustice of Saddam Hussein going to kuwait . That might be a justifiable intervention. Mr. Bush the seconds intervention, i believe along with many other people in the world, that that was an inlegal an illegal invasion. We disrupted the lives of how many people . How many did we kill there . Both on purpose and Collateral Damage . And look at the state of that country now. But wouldnt you violate the law if you were righteously indignant about what this country was doing . I havent. Wouldnt you lay down in the middle of the street to stop traffic . I would be involved in nonviolent protests, yes. My first arrest actually was outside the south African Embassy in the apartheid period when the organizations were coordinating mass arrests on a daily basis, you know. I got arrested then. My sister, nobel peace laureate Laurie Mcguire of ireland was arrested and myself and everies were arrested in Lafayette Park when mr. Bush decided to invade iraq. I believe in nonviolent protests. I believe that is my right under the constitution. I did not pick up a gun and use that to indicate my righteous indignation at inswrussties. Anybody in your family own guns . My brother has been a hunter since he was 12. Steve or he other one . Good god, no. No. My schizophrenic brothers guns were locked away so he couldnt get to them. Do you talk to your brother about the guns . Sure. Whappings between the two of you . Whats his politics . In the early days i went rabid about it. When i was younger i was very oh, i was a little more lacking in sympathy. For lack of a better way of putting it. We used to fight about it. But he has helped me understand that for hunters like himself, he hunts whenever he can, but he cleans his own animals, he eats all the meat he hunts. Hes not a how does he call them. Hes not a trophy hunter, hes not a dirty hunter, is what he calls them, the ones that go out in the night and shine lights in the eyes of an animal so they can stun it and kill it. I think hes mellowed, you know. I dont have a problem necessarily with guns, but i have a problem with unregulated yution of you know, the ability of anyone and their brother to acquire as many guns as they want. Certainly my brother would never hunt an animal with a semiautomatic weapon that would blast its to blast it to pieces. So i think we have more sane conversations these days. In your boobling, you tell us the exact moment when you i dont know, how to put this. But when you decided you were attracted physically to your now husband. Goose. His name is steve goose. And heast called goose throughout your book. We met banning land mines. He was married at the time. Three children. So this is one of the things that i talked about not being a saint. Im a normal human being. We were friends and colleagues and we fell in love. And it was very painful. The separation from his family was very painful. With the kids it was very painful. He tried to go home several times and every time i said go, go. Tell us about the moment, the exact moment. The moment was when i was mentioning the convention on conventional weapons that treaty we were unsuccessful in getting amended to ban land mines. Two and a half years the campaign had been there, pushing, as i said, yelling, screaming, doing antics, building fake land mine fields for the diplomats to walk across and they would step on a sensor and it would blow up, trying to bring the mines to them. We didnt succeed. And in fact, the treaty was made weaker, so were done. Two and a half years in geneva. In and out all the time. But were packing up the office and all the campaigners are going down to this pub, pickwick pub in geneva, they went all the time, i didnt go, i didnt like the smoke and the people that much. Not the people themselves but im a loner so i tend to go to my room and lay down and read that night i decided to go. And we were at the pub and i usually sneak out because i hate goodbye so i was sneaking out to go to the hotel, i had a very early plane the next day back to vermont and all of a sudden steve fwoose was beside me and we were walking back to the hotel, campaigners tended to stay in the same hotel. We get to the frovent door and we hear a voice above us and its our friend susan, who had been working on the campaign for years with handicap international out of france. She is holding a bottle of wine. You know, being ridiculous, we went upstairs and had more wine. Susan, sorry, susan, susan fell over on the bed laid down gently on the bed and the next thing we knew she was snoring. All of a sudden, goose and i kissed. It wasnt premeditated, but we kissed. It was like, oh my god. Oh, my god. It was too late. I rushed to get on my airplane and it was one of these things where you think, you know, wed had too much to drink, it was a stupid thing, lets forget about that. Two days later, he called me, on a sunday, from his house. And we never talked outside of work time. And it was the most awkward conversation, i can be the cant even remember what was said. It lasted about 45 seconds. But that was when i knew that something that something was happening, that i wasnt sure what to do with. How did his wife find out . He told her. What was her reaction . You can imagine. Fury. She locked him out of the house. But he went back. He tried. Many times. I moved back to vermont. Did you two have an agreement that you wouldnt talk . Who . You and goose. Several time he is tried to go home while we were living together. We talked about it. It was very upsetting for all of us. Then it got really to be too much. Two years later, 1999. And he and i and i said go. Go back home. I will move we were renting a house in alexandria at that point. Here in virginia. Yes. I said ill go back to vermont. So i packed up my uhaul, rented one, packed it up, left the house intact for him. I thought hes in bad shape. Im not going to denude the house and leave him sleeping on a mattress on the floor. And my dog and i and my sister drove to vermont. I spent i think the first 10 days on the floor weeping in my pajamas. Im being me lo dramatic but it was melodramatic but it was pretty sad. I we were not communicating. I said you cant really be trying with your wife if were communicating. That, you know, obviously doesnt work. And i decide a couple of weeks later to go out to california to see friends. And i got an email. And i was angry. You know, why are you emailing me . What are you trying to do . Make sure im in pain . Yeah, im in pain. Then he called me. And i told him i was thinking about moving out to l. A. I was going to stay with my friend. She had lost her husband to lung cancer and she was a mess, i was a mess, we figured wed be great roommates. That kind of freaked goose out. We worked it out and i came back and mar rismed we got married. How is it working out . Hes awesome. Hes societyly awesome. We moved, you hes totally awesome. Even with the difficulty, we moved to fredericksburg on february 1, 2001. We still live there. Five minutes from his kids so he could be with his kids and they could be with him. Because it wasnt about the kids. It was, you know, it sounds dumb but people grow apart in relationships and if they dont really work at them all of a sudden you wake up and how kid you get here . Let me go back to a question i asked you earlier. Why do you think anybody wants you to know this about a Nobel Peace Prize winner. Know which . That or everything i put in the book . Everything you put in the book. And theres a lot of personal stuff. Sure. I mean i could have written some glossy ridiculousness, pretended i was close to perfect who wanned you to to perfect. Who wanted you to write this book . I wanted to. I wanted to. I want people to understand theres nothing magic about making the world a better place. Get up off your butt and participate. Did goose read this before you of course. Before i even wrote the painful part about our relationship, we talked about it. Was he concerned about the kids reading this . Well, yeah. Theyre now in their mid 20s, you know. What do they think of you . They hated my guts, of course. Still . No. No. When they started coming around the house, i said i never wanted kids. First of all. I knew at 13 i did not want children. So i ended up with a guy who, by the way, is hard of hearing, and had three kids. And so when they first came to the house, you know, i said to them, you dont have to like me, i do not have to like you. However, we will be polite to each other in this house. And when youre obnoxious and i cant take it anymore, i will leave you with your dad and go off to my bedroom and shut the door and read which id probably rather be doing anyway. I didnt do it for shock value, i really meant it. When they drove me nuts, id go up to my room and shut the door and read. I didnt do it to confuse them, i didnt want to be near them. Over time they couldnt believe i didnt want to somehow pretend i was their mother. Im not their mother. Were very close. Heres some video. Last voork only 30 seconds. Thats fine. Something you said in 2007. So you end the soviet union, end the threat of communism, how are you going to justify the military expenditure of the United States of america unless you have a global entity of similar scope . You have to have Something Big enough, scary enough, evil enough to justify continuing the game. Im sorry, but part of it is a game. Part of it is real. Im no utopian. Just because you win the Nobel Peace Prize doesnt mean you become mother theresa and you dont believe that sometimes the use of force is necessary. When is the use of force necessary . For selfdefense only. And i do not buy the argument that extra judicial execution by drones which under International Law is murder is selfdefense. The liberals in this country went, they get very angry with george w. Bush about the whole war. Why are they not angry with barack obama. Many of us are. But not have more. But not very many. I think theres not much coverage of it. In the same way there was against mr. Bush. Why is that . Liberal media. Im joking. I dont know. If i knew, you know, maybe i could change the world more quickly. I dont know. But i dont think the coverage is there. I think for many people because obama was so different from bush in many ways, theres a lack of desire to analyze and critique his policies the same way one would mr. Bush. I, on the other hand, believe that i dont care who the president is, i dont care what his party is, i care what his policies are. And if they are worse than those of mr. Bush, they are certainly worthy of criticism. Now obama, i think it was within the first two months in office in his first term used drones more than bush had in the eight years of his administration. And nobody said a word. We, you know, we have created a borderless battlefield. We are killing people in countries with which we are not at war. How can we justify this. I was with an International Lawyer in geneva recently and he said, sometime, somebody is going to kill a u. S. Soldier in nevada, one of the soldiers who goes in every day and you know, does the drone strike, and he said, i am going to have to call that an act of war. Legal under the laws of war. Hes attacking military target. I am not advocate ka i am not advocating, im just saying how can we kill people wherever we want and believe that its not going to come back it scares me that we are so complacent. That we are not willing to ask those questions. And it scares me that some people in this country sexually think we have the right to murder. The name of the book is my name is Jody Williams a vermont girls winding path to the Nobel Peace Prize, won it in 1997. We thank you. Thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2013] for a copy of this program call 187766 7726. For free transcripts or to give us comments about this program, visit us at qanda. Org. Q abd a programs are also available as cspan podcasts. Tonight on cspan, british Prime Minister david cameron, followed by the state funeral of venezuelan president hugo chavez, and later the International Women of courage awards