To have you today and particularly unfortunately given the tragic events in orlando at your book isis a history is particularly relevant today. We want to have a conversation in the context of what happens but also as your book very eloquently lays out the history of isis and thats what we want to try to understand because many people focus so much on the brutality but your book goes much further and much deeper than just talking about the violence. You talk about the ideology and you talk about the religious dimension which is so important for englishspeaking audiences to understand. Just as a starting point i wanted to just talk about the first chapter in the beginning and you mentioned many factors to the rise of isis and of course we both know as middle easterners there have been many radical groups that have evolved over the last 30 to 40 years and isis is just the most violent that has evolved. You mentioned some, the u. S. Invasion of iraq for sample and the arab states particularly after the arab uprising, the economic collapse of arab states and you also mentioned something that i think is very interesting , is how isis is able to provide services for sunni populations in the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood did in egypt so i was wondering just if we could tell them to the first chapters or you can explain to the audience how would you prioritize these factors . What would you say is the most compelling Factor Factor as opposed to other ones that i have just listed that you can sort of walk us through how you would rank these different conditions that led to the rise of isis . Guest thank you for hosting me. I am delighted. We know its drivers, we know the most important factors behind its spectacular surge. We know his worldview, its ideology. Its recruitment techniques and we also know i think its strengths and weaknesses. Isis is a different name, two sides of the same coin. Al qaeda and iraq was formed as a result of the u. S. Led invasion and occupation in iraq. If you asked of all the reasons you have mentioned what is the most significant in the rise of al qaeda in iraq i would say the u. S. Led invasion. Why . It destroyed state institutions, it it suspended the army and the security forces, it was seen by sunni arabs in iraq as a minority invasion and political escalation of the Muslim Community that dominant narrative in iraq. Iraq was on a silver platter to iran and the new ruling elite that they were brought by the american so all these factors contributed to, i mean the u. S. Invasion in iraq is really created it. If you asked me and i know you have a book coming out in basically opened the gates in terms of deepening the sectarian breath between sunni and shia. A man by the name of zach are a hoot came from afghanistan in 2003 windows u. S. In iraq almost before the u. S. Led invasion a train 2003 and 2006 when he was killed by the americans and zarqawi was able to establish sharia in arabic social bases for thousands of fighters because many sunni arabs in iraq welcomed zarqawi not because he believed in al qaeda ideology but they believed iraq was their ally in the fight against the americans in iran and the shia. So this is really the rise of al qaeda and the question becomes we know that al qaeda in iraq was defeated between 2006 and 2008 by sunni iraqis who turned against zarqawi in iraq because zarqawis strategy was to plunge iraq into allout war come as terry and violence between the sunni and the shia. Most of the attacks by zarqawi were met against American Forces , the coalitions were willing against the shiites so if al qaeda was defeated by the sons of iraq or the weakening between 2006 and 2008 what does it explain . The rise of isis. Here too, your important question we have to take other factors into the equation other variables and here comes the deepening sectarianism in iraq of 2010, the president almaliki as the Prime Minister the arab spring uprising and the derailment of the uprising the civil war in syria and basically iraq was able to basically blend itself with the religious sunni communities in iraq and in syria to have a security vacuum. You had sunni rebellions against the shiite dominated and alloway dominated areas so this spectacular surge of isis was a direct result of the creeping sectarianism comes the deepening sectarianism the civil war and alnusra the security vacuum that exists in other states and the perception that somehow the arab spring belief peaceful collective action could not change the existing one. The leader of isis basically motto is change would calm not through the electoral box but through the battle and this is the motto of isis as it has tried to hijack the agency. Host i want to delve into a lot of these issues in a moment but i want to sort of pushback on 11 of the explanations you gave because i think this is often a media sort of error or misleading part of the Media Coverage of isis and that is the economic dimension of this. I mean you do mention this but i think as we both know as we worked on political islamist movements for so long that the economic theory has been somewhat discredited or that mean i know we all know from the media that isis is paying their fighters and in the territories they control they are paying people in providing services but dont you think this is much less significance of a factor than the ones you mentioned and i want to go to the ones you mentioned. Guest i think we cannot understand the rise not only of isis all part of what we call the between salafism. Host before you go further can you define for the audience would have salafism mangia hodus him because that is how you explain ideology in your book which is very important for people to understand. We had salafist and then we had jihadists. Guest the narrative between salafism which is a radical element of wahhabism is really an ultraconservative ideology and this is really, it belongs to the days of the first Islamic State of prophet mohammad. Salafism, the marriage between salafism which is unaltered conservative utopian idea and jihadists and which is really a radical egyptian ideology and for your own viewers this particular modern ideology, the ideology goes back to the 1950s and 60s. Salafism in its current form was born in the values of afghanistan during the struggle, the u. S. Struggle against the soviet union in afghanistan. The marriage between Osama Bin Laden with the ultraconservative salafism and Ayman Zawahiri which was a radical radical radical egyptian jihadists amend this ideology basically the central in al qaeda and iraq and isis and other affiliates in yemen and other places are part of the salafis jihadists family and part of the family, the gene pool. To come back to the question, this is a very important question. Im not suggesting, i would not suggest that economic drivers are the most significant factors behind the rise of either outside the central or al qaeda in iraq or isis but what i would say is you cannot understand the spectacular surge of isis without understanding what i call the Massive Development of theory and the Massive Development of theory is in particular the airport old, its the failure of the state to provide, the failure of the state to provide hope for young people. Its a blockage in the system. Its abject poverty and on average we estimate there are 30 or 40 of the people in the arab world who live either in poverty or below the poverty line. Unemployment among youth is between 30 and 40 say you have political vulnerabilities and economic ulnar abilities. The arab spring was about the political vulnerabilities political tyranny and the lack of hope unemployment abject poverty. These factors | marble of a zen economic old abilities create an institutional vacuum, security vacuum, vacuum of ideas and now what we call nonstate actors hegemonic groups like al qaeda and isis who tried an alternative. What is the big idea that isis offers the Islamic State or the caliphate so economics on their own, economic theory does not explain why isis has surged but economic ulnar abilities are critical components to what we are seeing in the hegemon is movements in the region. Host want to touch on something you mentioned about the Younger Generation because of course a lot of isis recruits are from the Younger Generation and as we see from the tragedy in orlando even though the u. S. Intelligence has distanced a young man from isis he was certainly probably influenced by isis if not other radical radical groups and i want to quote what you wrote in the book which is a very prophetic and especially in light of todays events. You talked about the Younger Generations and you wrote in the first chapter of the movement propagandists and preachers proselytize them boast that the tide of history is shifted in their favor and i think this is a very important point. Whether it is on the cusp of victory the ideology is here to stay and to shine light on it make sense of the new right that daddy and his cohorts represent a new generation of salafist jihadist religious activist and on that point about religion as we talk about the ideology in the next few minutes i wanted to ask you because i think you raise a very good point later in the book when you say isis is trying to redefine how islamists practice and i think thats a very important point. Its not only isis but other islamic groups that have made the same claim after the arab uprising that its time to redefine islamism and so can you you guest the reason why i take isis very seriously, isis has a miniarmy between the reason i take isis very seriously is not because he uses savagery, beheadings and the salk aris savage practices. Isis present itself as an alternative. It presents itself as the Islamic State. Tries to construct kind of a utopia, and this is based on the idea of sunni identity and telling the muslims look the religious establishment has failed you and the expansion of the state system. Come and join the Islamic State. It struck an alternative than the alternative is based on this myth or utopia. In fact the reason i says represents the rest of the system is it challenges the nationstate. Thats why this is very important. Mosul is the second largest city captured by isis in june of 2014. It released a video in arabic call to abolish in borders in which isis in very direct language told sunni muslims to destroy the border basically set up at the colonial powers between 1916 and 1920s and establish a new order based on identity, sunni identity and thats why isis in the video which shows isis destroying the border between iraq and syria. Even many muslims who do not subscribe to the ideology of the salafi to hodus him take seriously the idea of the failed system, the institutional fragility, the economic collapse so in this particular sense isis has done as well as it has because really it connects on this particular intrinsic level, the level of the state billiar the religious establishment and what have you. Host i think your point about the failure of the statesponsored religion is very important because we have seen this with state sanctioned religious institutions, that the states dont control the religious message in a longer and although this has been an ongoing struggle egypt is a perfect example of this in the 1990s when former president mubarak tried to put what has happened as the message has slipped away from this date, other nonstate actors have come and to kidnap the message and i think that is a very important point. And i also wanted to ask you though, you know when baghdadi says he wants to redefine how islam is practiced, so in a very practical sense what does this look like in isis occupied territories in terms of the mundane daytoday existence . Guest first of all i want to come back to the question of the definition of what islam is. Isis is not not only gives the state system by their revolt against the islamists practice which is seen as an extension of the state itself. In fact and i make this point if i spend a lot of time many people dont realize that the brutality and the savagery and the cultural cleansing that isis practices in syria and iraq as part of this particular ideology. Isis is trying to distinguish itself from other salafis like al qaeda. Saying to the young jihadist, look we are the real authentic salafi jihadists group. We want to purify the land, we want to go back to seventh century, the ideal time to utopia of seventh century and to do what we have to cleanse the land of alien influences, upper states and what have you so the savagery, the ethnic cleansing are cleansing is part of this construction in what is called this identity the sunni identity that is really seventh century arabia. Many young jihadist and i call isis the youth movement, i mean think about it. At the height of its power on 9 11 2001 the al qaeda numbered more than 1500. Isis nonmembers between 30 and 40,000. It has built a state and you asked me about the institution, the base of isis. It controls between six and 8 Million People and what it has been trying to do is this to establish a new institution. Based on education and salafi jihadists him in terms of bread and butter, in terms of hospitals and of course now now its bleeding financially. Isis is not just trying to construct the islamic utopia but establish a rudimentary institution and basically get rid of the very institions that exist in the region and just to remind our audience, this is june, isis now has been with us for two years and the Islamic State is two years old. It has been trying to invest itself, and trots itself and create its own signature on the towns and cities in iraq and syria despite everything that they u. S. Coalitions have thrown that isis, continues to exist and is spreading beyond syria and iraq and to us gamman and syria. This is very important, what do you do with the idea, the idea of salafi jihadists him which is really expanding and spreading. Host on that point i want to read that quote that you cited in the book by baghdadi which is quite shocking and i think a lot of people arent aware of this, where you said islam was never bored religion of peace islam is the religion of war. Your profit dispatched with the sword. I think obviously every time an attack happens weathers in the west and i want to get to the whole notion of the far enemy versus the close enemy next at whenever theres an attack there is always a big problem for muslims everywhere because of course i assist doesnt speak for 1. 6 billion muslims but nevertheless as this quote indicates there are some, very small minority who believe that violence is justified but do you think that this is a recruiting point for people who join isis, that they actually believe that islam is violent or is this baghdadi propaganda . Guest if you have asked very critical, several questions at once about redefining what islam is amiss all about. They are trying to get rid of 14th century islamic occupation so people say is isis isis or not which is a silly question. Host thats a very controversial point. Guest the socalled Islamic State or daish uses verses and ideas barrel selective altar conservative. It tries to counsel history. To tell me of course what its trying to do is to hijack the agency of billions, probably 1. 3 billion muslims and say we are the only islam and come back to the question. I started the book by saying dismissing isis as savagery and killers but its a small tiny sunni constituency. We have to take this particular constituency very seriously. Let me go further and provoke our audience. At a big isis would have done as well as it has without having a social base of support sunnis who feeling great, sunnis to feel outraged by whats happening in iraq and syria sunnis are fed up with the hurdle tactics and the sectarian dealings in iraq and who feel that somehow isis is their protector. What does albaghdadi say . We are your protector. We are your defender, we are the vanguard of the Sunni Community so yes there is a small Critical Community constituency that subscribes to the idea that islam has come by the sword and will survive by the sword. Its an important Political Community that has allowed isis to do as well as it has in the past two years. Host and that brings us logically to the whole subject of arianism because of course part of this appeal and part of the isis agenda is to define who is muslim and who is not a muslim and as we know isis and other groups have for it have declared shia on muslims and i think obviously brought for all the reasons that you have pointed out earlier the reason this has such resonance in a country like iraq is because there was a sick. Government. There was the maliki government that you write very extensively and very eloquently in the book and in great detail of how the maliki government actually institutionalized sectarianism. I think also its important i think for people to understand that the reason this created such a shockwave in a country like iraq or in the region in general because its had a Ripple Effect in bahrain and lebanon and in many countries so what has happened in iraq in iraq that the reason they created such a shock wave is that it changed the whole balance of power in the middle east. The sunnis always rolled and suddenly as you mentioned earlier with the iraq invasion the shia led government came to power in part because of the United States and so i think it may made the sunnishia tension a threat for survival. Each side being an existential threat to their faith and wasnt just a matter of territory which you also write about. So take us through, how does isis instrumental lies its notions of the shia to try to gain the support, not about the brutality but how does that instrumental lies its notion that the sea are not real muslims . Guest as you said i. A great deal of space talking about maliki. It was really a major shift in basically the way that maliki ruled. He institutionalized and formalized and in 2010 it presents really a major watershed in the mutation of al qaeda in iraq and what had become isis. Al qaeda has always been against the United States and the close european allies where al qaeda and iraq and isis has prioritized the fight in the in fact, they have the genocide ideology to get rid of all those represent 10 percent of all muslims. In fact, they began in iraq this against the wishes to believe that theyre more dangerous than the americans to think they are infidels to basically allow the americans to cut man and that they are the weakest link of islam from 2003 through the present head and then to prioritize the fight to come back to the central question of identity the only way that isis has is that identity to mobilize the sunni to sit the shiites are trying to dominate and infiltrate and that the shiites are manipulating islam. So this you what helps to allow isis to construct only by focusing that could be constructed. In fact, it was the sunni against the world you between 2006 and 2008. Of all the sectarian strife against the shiites. That is why they believed al qaeda and iraq defeated al qaeda even though isis has a good support to see them as the end of the history that was the alternate so this is the unfolding struggle as it is trying to meld and explode in that final point it is a struggle in the middle east. Between the sunii dominated to then poured gasoline on the raging fire is that strategic struggle to be a fundamental part of this rebirth devices. Absolutely. And the point that you raised about the difference of the support they interviewed the sunni tribal leaders not only iraq but also richard it jordan we dont support that isis ideology we had to support isis because it was the absolute last support. That points to that sectarian institution. So it is very important in your book you distinguish between how there was a shift with the role against al qaeda in the sectarian policies ahead and that is very important the issue ryan crocker in your book in terms of the United States with their involvement we cannot go to this topic without talking about the United States. And it was clear the al maliki government was sectarian and driving a lot of violence isnt focused on u. S. Policy but can you explain to the viet to the audience with the government that existed so many years . And action tavis told the Ayatollah Khamenei who said this person is finished and that is deal anyway he was not allowed to continue as Prime Minister. Tell us briefly. Why didnt the United States do something . That sectarianism escalating . And that opened the gates of hell. Even if we take into account it was the u. S. Invasion and it was barack obama that that was the unintended consequences in the reality and heres the irony and he was okayed during the first term but al maliki literally had a monopoly on the use of power. And the americas to non it exercise power isnt influence. Of course, Barack Obamacare at sending joe biden and he was in charge but he did not care. He did not even listen. And also with that limited influence he wanted out. That was the reality with any type of basic legal immunity to say good luck. So the reality is there was no will or desire or investment by United States and that is how they could do what they did without the Supreme Leader of by rand but the man is done for good and then i really realized that even though i would not cease taking orders from the iranian leadership it was the Supreme Leader and then they decided he was gone for good. It took cams so long. With that strategic miscalculation that has been made so if we are talking about the United States the cowhide they were fighting that Islamic Republic is supposed to be revolutionary state fighting tooth and nail to preserve and also those terrible tactics and the sectarian militias. With enough blame to go around. That was the free fall back but surely isis that that was a strategic with the talk about saudi arabia with the al qaeda central which is the official arm of the al qaeda in and forms of resources the all the resources not just our mes did as the result but in the context of iran we should be sure to mention there is a shechem militia that is important that people that dont read that much about. And they called for the eve of the takeover of mosul. He called on the shia and all muslims to get that back to the official language so we can see what began as a called despite isis as it evolves with encouragement and funding into portia of violent militia and they can go back. Do with a Human Rights Organization this is the violations in the killing of the sectarian militia. We may end up with a scenario because of the expansion. Many have been given the choice in many have chosen with that with the iraqi and syria. And because of the civil wars. In the sectarian militias in those other places mistake cannot defend itself anymore. That very idea to have the use of force it is calling on the militias and that is the states failure not just isis 04 al qaeda but ethnic militia to rise up with the vacuum that exists in the region. That is an important point. I spent some time, sectarianism and there is deep frustration among the clerical establishment because exactly the reason you describe that the Iraqi Government is and functioning and this is under the notion they are complicated topics but they are very different from the persian shiah and they are arab that is their primary identity. And to be discouraged by the violence to practice the faith of the cleric and feel theres too much intervention that their own cannot do anything about it. In many more proud once to have that Independence Day to the arab states absolutely. And i am really confused i am understandably wants to maximize the what i dont understand is this counterproductive measure in to be in that person was born in that part of the world but in particular as that struggle unfolds and again you have written a book on this to talk about the majority of the sioux the countrys when the dust settles and that is why i am hoping with this kind of word will view to push that divide it is widening and deepening. Using bahrain as an example because as you mentioned the geopolitical struggle and the societal conflicts on the lower plane in the case of bahrain is started as the sunni end shia uprising but then because the minorities to depopulation got behind the uprising and there are some youth groups now that are probably taking funding directly from iran because there is no recourse there is no arab system or government so i ran is the easy recourse. And with that strategic struggle in the question is the strategic struggle is complicating the internal structure where is the European Community or the International Community . In terms of putting up the fire to find a solution to this civil war to begin that process of reconstruction and we know how difficult they are. What about the morning after . How do you give hope to those who have no future . And 40 who would like that today not tomorrow so this tells you about your getting crisis for the refugee crisis with the crisis in the region toward the International Community. In this very unfortunate with lebanon and then to carry the country. I n of pleasantly surprised. Given the dismal condition. With that Massive Developmental failure. Expecting hundreds of thousands since and unfortunately to of a civil war taken place in badges is extremism and because even the unemployed young men and women think that is the threat. So even though it is important to appeal to the millions the basically looking at a way out of the situation. If you have written many of your books and i want to ask you in the early isis declared it was the enemy at home and it was made very clear. And we have seen that is not the case. But now there is the isis influence. So as you mentioned as a mark the 100th anniversary and they want to get rid of the nation states. And it at home like this that extend . But the enemy but the strategic goal to establish the Islamic State and that is a major conceptual difference and isis has devoted more and more resources from the attacks in paris in belgium and california and orlando. The second command that he has called to attack westerners it in particular civilians and children with the ada to terrorize and theyre losing big time even though it is not the beginning of the and think about it they are powerful attacks. But in fact, they basically pledged allegiance to isis while he was doing the killing in orlando. But not directly to above the. Sova statistic goal is of the neighboring countries and those prioritized attacks in the force multiplies. And that appeals to the recruiters but to say we are not losing. And talking about belgium or france or california and the ideology. So think of his portfolio a diluted man and a troubled soul violent and racist is you know, phobic. So this kind of ideology isnt to enjoy the Islamic State. And for that attack give orlando to order them to carry out the attack. There are multiple groups and sadly and we should of had resilience. Much how they have attacks since syria the question isnt if isis tries to attack with that rsi capacity in orlando you have some troubled individuals. And then take action in to their audience. This is the son of radicalized group. Dont forget the fact of course, of how many fighters there are an isis and the attraction said that it has. And also the thing that is very confusing of the ford fighters in particular is theyre educated. These are not young people that our impoverished and sincerely that theyre very educated coming from middleclass families in this is the last issue we have time for but so to address two issues it isnt that in particular with that cult of personality so particularly in the west with the limited homegrown independence with the infrastructure of isis and if there are autonomous units in the west then how does this operate . What is the planned attack . So how are these attacks carried out . So there is now a single variable. Into exclave that phenomenon there are about 4,006,000 weapons the showgirls than young women if you ask me how do you summarize . That isis is offering young men and women worldwide. So if his succeed youll be part of the Islamic State and if you die is a myth of the utopia. With fascism and marxism in these movements the storage in search of the identity benghazi a purpose in life and giving them the best education. And to the middleclass. And disadvantaged area is is a complex phenomenon and that is the idea of the utopia. To belong to a movement that gives a purpose in life so that a foreign unit is responsible for the external operations in the but the attack on orlando is home grown radicalized in there is no single factor of this particular movement. Host congratulations on your book and i want to say this is the bluest blood dash best book ever written about isis so far because it goes far beyond the strategy, or the bullet terry strategy but talks about ideology in depth the Historical Context of the middle east that led to isis which is important. That talks about the u. S. Responsibility but there is a lot of material of conflicting stories congratulations. Guest thanks for having me. Government to reduce is already one cited i care about free speech and the First Amendment and i have no allegiance to one party or the other to have written lot about the abuse is on the left going in the refined a bunch of stuff on the right. Live with legal analysts to take your calls and email questions he will be discussing his latest book the wild sagas of the kidnapping of patty hearst also the author of the Obama White House and the supreme court. To close to call. A vast conspiracy. The run of his life and opening arguments join in the conversation with your phone calls