Forget that the next peaceful nonviolent revolution has failed and we were impressed by what was happening in afghanistan and women were in the parliament and it was a mediocre democracy and that is how democracies begin. I made the case in this book that the arab spring was influenced by two precedents. One was lebanon, 1. 5, 1. 8 Million People of growth against the syrian occupation. But it was not entirely successful because some of the weapons remain that also was part of this as well. So the arab spring had its own experiment and to answer your question that jihad is to have been removed have recreated this all over the region. And they are back into the sunni triangle and they are in yemen and in somalia and so statistically speaking we have to say at one point yes, we may have taken us out but this is the generation and we are talking about the thirdgeneration here is well. Apart from al qaeda is it your opinion that they are in the region even after what we have seen . And certainly they were for a time. And so what is the pushback in egypt or tunisia . And what is your sense of this now . Slice of islamist antijiha ants that would grow and on the other side of liberals that would struggle and then any regime. It wasnt moving in europe or latin america. The silent majority that millions of people who watch tv. But egypt has done significantly in the second revolution is the silent majority move that shows the liberal camp over the islamists but that doesnt have the full success of democracy because democracy needs a revolt against a dictatorship and mostly the radical islamists. But now the challenge in egypt is in terms of the revolution into the case and tunisia to get new Political Parties because only the new Political Parties can organize the democracies and allow them to function. Lets stick with egypt because of the few thing a few u said about egypt one of those is you Say Something to the affect that it is on track in egypt and that finally egypt is on the path to democracy. A lot of other people including the egyptians look at whats going on and say whats happening is the military is back in power. There is no democracy put on the black burner or in the closet or Something Like that. Your take seems to be something very different. When we were leaving facebook including those in 2011 the same sad mubarak we need to collaborate and mediate both and we told them know there is a forthcoming. What we need to do is read what they do and other minorities. If the American Perspective of the minority which is not true egypt now has discovered that it has a majority that doesnt want the regime so while the military are in power are you contending and it would be verified in the next month despite what the military would try to do maybe the general will be elected as president but not with a uniform and this is a major change. There is a constant majority now that would go back. Its another attempt by the authoritarians for example many of the critics in washington are saying they are arresting members not just of the Muslim Brotherhood of liberal groups. So we would criticize them for that. But the critics are talking about this to go back to the Muslim Brotherhood did find an overwhelming majority of egyptians that will tell you we dont want mubarek or morsi. Anyone would have to follow the trend and now we are in a transitional democracy. The choice of egyptians had last june was either the islamization as they call it or the state gets the would criticize such individuals. So it would be to separate the process and put pressure on the government to stop these arrests but you cannot stop it and go back to the regime or the Muslim Brotherhood. I certainly share your sense of the alarm that egypt was on and of the grip on egypt but nothing good would happen. And it wouldnt be democratic but right now i guess im a little less optimistic than where egypt is going. What makes you im not convinced that you can create a democracy on the basis that the mass of people would go to the square every time theres a deviation from the democratic court. That will either itself and in exhaustion, people wont keep doing it, or else at some point you just have chaos if it is ruled from the square. So, what decides the ever present threat if the new regime becomes the people that go back to the square do you see any forces that is going to push this in a democratic direction . That is the question of the day because that is another book. The book is saying as we were just argued getting rid of what the brotherhood is trying to establish is the biggest victory because had they been able to do that it would have been dangerous. There would have been no regime were no other support of regime following the moderates will this is how i see it from the liberal democratic perspective from sweden and from the west when we look at egypt its behind. Egypt today would be comparable to the latin american struggling democracies on the path to move forward but away from the military regime and hopefully now away from what is happening in the readjustment. Is it even if you have several things have changed how the mass participation that we think sometimes it is for one day or two days. It is a silence of power and anybody that wants to assert that the unstoppable power and the judges have demonstrated across europe and they have asserted that the role that they want to keep things under the law and they are struggling. You have t the labor union for e first time as some determination to maintain also this. When men are more assertive so what is happening now under which the new Political Forces are moving forward. It is not a egypt is not even greasy of southern italy or spain among which are struggling with in the west but its moving forward so from the western perspective, we cannot judge from the perspective if it is moving i think there will be a crisis and they do not agree on the future but between how much they are going to keep this one or not in the constitution there will still be a lot of debate. I am as a historian trying to stay egypt went through a difficult time all and now it stands without end of th and thf the democracy cant regulate. I want to stay with egypt for a few more minutes. You say in the book you make a recommendation for the policy towards egypt now which is in keeping with what you said that ibutit is very much in the oddsh what is our policy right now and that the prevailing wisdom is among most of the people that go on the u. S. Policy towards egypt. You said that we ought to step up the aid and embrace the egypt more than in the past. Im afraid that if we dont, then egypt is going to go into populism and have more influence over the military and they are going to talk to other leadership in the world by the military delegation or the government to russia. So if we dont come now in the form of the new partnership then it shouldnt be with the government and the regime. We had it with mubarak at the other people were not happy and he was using our partnership to create an islamist space center we need to do it from people to people. Its hard to divert this to egypt and we may not have to do it from the u. S. Government about for the egyptian people there are multiple ways to do that and congress should do a lot of calibrating the way that is going to egypt. Egyptians should also do a lot and my advice is that it was addressed mostly to the american leaders. They need to send many english speakers. The committees should be here. The office should be here. Our hollywood doesnt know what their hollywood is in terms of the Public Policy and what they want. Its been 12 of their population so i am for a strong engagement to regain the countries that want to be stable and move forward and lets not forget one thing that egypt seems to be emerging as a leader for a lot of countries in jordan also going and pushing back. So if we want to have a smarter policy within the polit with ths problems existed today in a way to absorb that would be enough to push back but now is the time to bring them in. When you talk about the Civil Society, one of the difficulties have spent the Egyptian Government for many years under mubarek, and i dont know that it has changed has been extremely difficult to deal with on this particular point. Its the most repressive dictatorships. Its the middle of the pack dictatorship but on the point of allowing the foreign aid to the Civil Society they were one of the most recalcitrant and have demonstrated through. Right now there are american ngos whose staff including Freedom House and the National Democratic institute. Its simply for channeling the funds to the civil societies. Do you see a way of coping with that . On the one hand we should be very firm and asking the authorities now and the next parliament to be elected and to start our ngos. Why were they angry with these ngos . One of the answers is because the people they claimed were Muslim Brotherhood in the sense that you see now the Muslim Brotherhood is coming to washington is to be shuffled and why liberal or other organizations come to washington and are ignored by these. Fortunately we thought that by doing this this was the opposition and the academic mistake made in washington before they reform their own ideology. But let me say from people to people there is a window now to do each because egypt is fighting a huge grapple against the radical networks. Also the urban uprising a long the valley of the nile said out of the cities into the perspective of hoping the Civil Society i dont think the next vermin to be elected if we do with the right way would object to that and we can rectify and those should be back to egypt if we should negotiate the safe work in egypt. Host they say the people at the u. S. Ngos are partnering in egypt. When they say it, they are lying. It isnt true. And i truth in advertising i am a member of the board of one of these organizations so i am pretty well acquainted with its work and i do know that the egyptian Staff Members of the Freedom House who are arrested and tried and convicted and none of them are islamists. And i think the proof is the indictments of these ngos came still under the regime but they were not dropped by the regime. The prosecution continues. If the reason for the prosecution was that the ngos are working with the islamist, then somehow the administration would have allowed i agree with you that the intention and the leadership was not on the Muslim Brotherhood to staff on the ground may have known that is not what i intended to say. The groups that we trained paws as ngos that were formed by the brotherhood so the time to me it is fine. The government is very smart and they are already pushing against them. We should intervene for that but they should be modern in the way of engaging those forces on the ground. As you know in many of the meetings with european ngos and american ngos and invited experts and invited people to engage many of whom. My criticism as they were not it open for the other side i didnt we see people come and they were telling us they havent been invited so now the point is not knowing the entire fact that we need to have a review of everything done in the past and reengage. When i read your account of egypt in terms of your strong fear and dislike of the brotherhood and the disbelief of those that say that they are just moderates, they are somehow the equivalent of the christian democrats of europe i was played by some democrats i dont belief and i follow you that they are democrats of any kind and they have a completely different agenda. Im on the same plan that i was surprised at how far you go in making the accusation that the u. S. Policy was pro brotherhood were pro islamist. It seemed to accommodate to some extent, but i didnt think that the islamists didnt appear to me that they were the ones that the u. S. Was favoring. But you argue repeatedly in the book that we were favoring the islamists. On the same very strong. I had had a bout of evidence ad statements by people who tried to knock on the door of the state department and of our other agencies and to partner. My argument was the non Islamist Forces and ngos have traveled hard to partner with or engage in the u. S. Government only to find that the ngos and n the government and institutions including in the opposition some democrats and others it is a bureaucrat of both sides have been advised by the expertise that this is the viable force that we need to do business with and that the brotherhood eventually come t, the good intn in washington is that thinking the brotherhood will reform. We go back to argument number one. We dont want to establish the states that we were led to believe by academia and expertise that they will reform. It led us to believe that we can partner with them at the exclusion of the other side so my point is not that we knew what they were doing and we helped them. We didnt know how far. That would be my argument. Because you said the thing that struck me most in the book is way out there when you said the Obama Administration and braced the demonstrations against mubarek to the extent i think we are on break. I see that we are going to take a quick break and then i will pick up the question when we get back. I was challenging you on your claims about how the degree to which the Obama Administration actually favored were supported the brotherhood. Let me read one sentence here which i thought was strong, stronger than i would have said or believed to be Obama Administration dealt with the events in the square. It increased pressure only in proportion to the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood participati participation. This is a strong point that ive made because i was focusing our after hours. These are political times and indeed i am not charging the entire administration because when you use that term it means that everybody from the dod to the white house understood that. I am making the statemen makingt those that gave the actual advice went to ask him to go down and actually favored the idea that the brotherhood would be leading the revolt and i made that case. So when you have the demonstration that began as a result by the call, 85,000 came to the face but that is the beginning of the revolution. Now the facebook was liberal. 30 or 40,000 members came down so the original square was used. Everybody knows the brotherhood including we stayed behind. We didnt want to go in. They were afraid of the regime. They didnt know how it was going to end up. They didnt know if the Obama Administration was going to allow them to or not. Only in this umbrella provided to the demonstrators when the Egyptian Military was broadly by washington. This was the beginning of the collapse of the mubarak regime. Then as it was quoted into the brotherhood started to go inside of the square coordinated themselves or others with more visible in washington and a renter all media and it was when the brotherhood went and the statement changed. For the first time because the brotherhood was still out. When the brotherhood was in and the speeches began to become actual then they should resign. Host i will give you a different implication, tell me if im wrong, but i think what you said is because the brotherhood joined and the u. S. Administration had a favorable attitude, then our administration decided to go further and saying you must go in supporting. And so it sounds as if our favorable attitude toward the brotherhood is what allows us to go further. And an alternative explanation of the sequence i dont disagree with your description of the sequence, but another way to look at it is through the secular people, liberal minded and there have been many previous demonstrations as you know so well that a small group would come out and suddenly here were tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands made a tremendous change, Something Different was going on. And then a few days later hundreds of thousands. They were very cautious, and at first they didnt stick their neck out, but when they saw that there were hundreds of thousands of grassroots egyptians then they put out the word to move in. But i would say another way of looking at the sequence that you described is the same observation that moved the brotherhood to move in and what really moved the Obama Administration. So it wasnt that the brotherhood that moved in that changed their line that the explosive growth of the protest affected on the one hand the brotherhood and on the other hand of the u. S. Administration. They were both drawn. We have a different perspective but if we are talking about the game changer, the tens of thousands that to the square in the 50 to 60, 70, maybe 100,000, it was the narrative of the administration that is between our ally. If they wanted to have these people when theyve asked mubarak to go down. So i would ask why would you not a demonstration became the demonstration because the didnt really change the nature of the demonstration. If the brotherhood came in. The administration was badly advised in the sense that only when the brotherhood would go in you would let go of mubarak because i it may have been a god intention there is always this concern because there is no trust in the Civil Society so there could be many interpretations. I want to raise another point about the u. S. Political dynamics. Its another point where i found the book to be stronger than i would make. And then i would read the u. S. Behind it to go back to the region to touch on some of the countries. In the politics where i found your assertions very strong is the characterization of the influence of what you called the islamist lobby which is a very fair term and i scratched my head a little and said i wonder if it is as bad as that. We have had maybe not a rash of books but a series of books that claim the policy is dominated by the jewish lobby, the zionist lobby, and i found them all while the unconvincing seems to be the polar opposite that there is an islamist lobby into the Israel Jewish lobby is very massaged story for somebody to raise the question of the islamist lobby. But is it a dominant force in the decisionmaking . Guest we dont even call them lobbies and thats what they do. That is what every Pressure Group does. You talk about those that have been criticized in the lobby. They have a specific interest so there isnt the notion that it always has to be negative. I remember from my days in the 90s they wanted us to get out. But there is a difference between the conspiracies of the lobbies in control of the government and the lobby or the Pressure Group that focuses on their own deaf meaning of the country or in this case the islamist lobby and im glad we are doing this interview today as opposed to two weeks ago because thats not me thats saudi arabia and the uae and bahrain wednesday criticized the one major that they had against witches and the connection in the Muslim Brotherhood. Of the Muslim Brotherhood. They had funded for years one of the largest lobbies to influence the government. Nobody in the region would accuse others of having that lobby. Now because of what is happening in egypt and in saudi arabia it is coming from the inside. The funds have been invested to maintain influence. I dont think that this is outside of the american a patient. My point was our National Security foreignpolicy establishment should have listened to many views of the academia on the groups that have been funded in the area of the middle eastern studies. When it comes from the middle east to be invested here if they go to medical studie the medicae a korean studies thats fine but when they talk in the middle east of the studies and then force one of you, we havent seen a lot of research in american academia about southern sudan. We havent had a Significant Research on the occupation of lebanon before the assassinati assassination. We had a lot of stuff on the palestinian and israeli issue, so also that indicates that it d be a better route better balance and i do claim that there is a significant Pressure Group that focuses on one of you. Now in the conflict Everybody Knows thats what they do and the organizations thats what they do. In these groups thats what they do. But its not that these groups exist its that our Foreign Policy should listen to more than one. The worldview hasnt been shaped also by the representatives of the minorities, by the representatives of the secular opposite. We havent heard a lot about them because that level would block them from actually getting their opinion. I want to get back to that region but the point that you made that i found one of the interesting points in the book that isnt about america in the region but kind of a global point is you tackle the subject of islamic phobia, and i spend a little time following the un and that is an arena in which the islamic phobia has been raised in the various resolutions that many decried the islamist phobia and you seem to debunk. Guest i d guest i do recognize that islamic phobia exists. It explains the rational fear of islam and therefore, the negative attitude towards the community. Im absolutely against it. If it is a part of the xenophobia, islamic phobia is nothing within the xenophobia versus one group or any other. Its part of it. But what happened is the islamist lobby had hijacked that notion and made it into a weapon. Anybody criticizing the issue that has nothing to do with religion. I think this is very close to what the National Socialists in germany would have accused anybody that is criticizing their policy against the german race and even at the International Level it becomes very dangerous. For example, i decide what islamic phobia is dealing with. Number one if it is against antiislamic people. Now i make a distinction if people are on the grounds and im not one of them that is a theological debate. If people dday at each others religion im very liberal on this one. They dont have an impact on the National Security meaning you are debating these ideas and i cannot stop them as a government i cannot say how to do the theological debate. Second, if people are talking about the history of the region, this is where it becomes serious and people representing the minorities in the region are saying welcome our history was one of depression. You accuse them of being xenophobic and the jews and even the shia who are not th sunnis e have to regulate the notion. And the worst case that has been affecting us if you are trying to help the u. S. Government in determining what is the ideology for example, if yo you are are dismissed for being an islamist of. So it went too far. That should go back where it belongs. Only if there is a call for violence only if there is a called but few are taking away the rights of the community because you dont like the theology or the venue then yes this is a legitimate xenophobia that the other sectors this is legitimate in my view. Let me go back to the middle east. The other leading countries where there has been some reversal of the momentum is tunisia which was the starting point for the arab spring that had an election where the islamist one doppler apathy and they were able to form a government, but they were thwarted in pushing through the constitution they wanted and now theres been a kind of compromise consensus constitution what you think the state of play is at this point. Guest i will expand this. They learned from what happened in egypt. That is the bottom line that is happening in the debate and defend the secular analysis its not understood they cannot suppress those demonstrations as was the case with mr. Morsi. Host neither being the islamist Political Party. Guest the party that took over in tunisia and it is more moderate than the Muslim Brotherhood. One level of moderation. But tunisias social constitution as you know is different from egypt in the sense that the islamists are smarter politically into the secular is our stronger. There is a greater role for the women. And also in tunisia the fact that the government wasnt able to stop one of the associates that isnt with them but somewhat linked to them, the jihadis into some of whom have been accused of assassinating secular leaders and that is what had the situation in egypt and tunisia. The Secular Movement which is mostly working labor and women and youth intent on bringing down the Rebellion Movement in egypt was performing. They got advice i think from the International Community including from the french and us not forget half of morsi to have a negotiation to accept the new election so now the withdraw there was a new cabinet as a ceasefire that both sides intended to go back to the government. That is going to oblige them not to reform it eventually and to compel the opposition for some sort of islamists clash, maybe democrat, i dont know because that experiment has not existed yet. I have not seen if you are islamist and reform and become a democrat we will talk about the party as a different. So i think thats tunisia did better than the model in egypt. Host and where do you think its going now . Guest the reality is both are going to try to come back into power. I think that there is a determination by the secular because they say they have suffered and they know where one another is going. So they knew that my conclusion is that if they sit down and reform on the inside and create a new Islamic Party is may be accepted but if not they are just doing this as a tactical move and if they have the same results in the future. The last polls are going to be elections in 2014. Those have shown that the main Secular Party is pretty substantially ahead of. Do you think that thats going to stand upright through guest it reflects what happened over the past few months you get what happened in egypt gets so much energy. They stop short of doing a street revolt and that was good. That energy is going to come through. They most likely are going to form the next government, but this is only the beginning. When they form the next government they have to help everybody else to make a distinction. The jihad is the violent al qaeda out command the allies should reform. So come if the slogan is hoping the islamists to Reform Committee may end up. But if they are going to perform like the Muslim Brotherhood with some sort of finance that in tunisia will not be lucky. Host you still think that there is a danger distinguished from that of that already exists and that have engaged in the violence consistently since 2011 but that its been nonviolent and its been functioning as the Political Party. Do you see a danger that they could result to violence . Guest im observing is not that they would move 1 inch towards reforming itself better than they would survive and become the conservative party of turkey. But there are slices. Therethere is always the concen about those that are in between and they could join. Im not saying that they are going to move in that direction. They will joined. Host we mentioned it before but in your book you are on egypt and even have a kind of inspiring sentence but egypt could become the model democracy for the region and certainly egypt has always been the case after so if egypt makes a transition to democracy, i think that no one would disagree that that would have tremendous ramifications around the region and influence on most or all of the other countries. But tunisia is closer you would agree to getting to the point that we would judge it to be really democratic and now they have a compromised constitution thats been written which is a democratic constitution and if the elections go and they form the next government and as youve suggested if they adapt to the role of being the parliamentary opposition rather than something else, some kind of comes purgatorial movement, then tunisia would really be up there as the first legitimate democracy. Guest tunisia would be more advanced. As a nation and its Political Institutions of french model, look at the women in politics. The way that they act in the labor union it would be more advanced, but its only when egypt will move the big brotherhood. When egypt would move one or 2 inches it would impact the entire view. Host user that anticipated my question which was the other side. So they are further advanced but we havent had a democracy until they began to move and which is sort of 1975 a long time ago and eventually drove you out. But for all these years we havent had a single democracy in the arab world. Tunisia would be number one at least in the post 9 11 era, but tunisia is a smaller country that is closer to the west is geographically and culturally. Still my question is if tunisia is there as a model democracy would that have an influence on others . Guest absolutely because we now live in an open global world. What happened in the debate and on facebook for example by looking at them speaking we have many discussing with them in egypt but it does and tunisia you are doing that, the world has changed from the time of the 60s when we had the newspapers and they wouldnt debate of the popular debate. It is a synergy between both. Are they going to go fast in the realm of ideas that could go slower but its coming into the direction that would be the Muslim Brotherhood. I have good news though that is the also copy each other it will not reform and move in a good direction this would influence maybe not the entire Muslim Brotherhood but something along the Muslim Brotherhood in egypt, not the entire organization bent on harboring what they are doing right now. This may influence. We need to see one model in the world where the muslim conservatives would have a Political Party and not connected to jihad best accepting the rule of others and being reasonable and accepting im not even calling them the muslim conservatives. Host in this image that you have given us of the reformed political movements that can play the role of the legitimate Political Party within the democracy and share in sustaining that democracy you said it needs to not be jihad best but it needs to also add some level and grace Democratic Values and ways of doing things and not to be conspiratorial and embrace democracies as a way as the society should function including the full rights. You would agree. Guest you have worked on this as well. And this is something not in our hands. This is a generational issue. If the judge cannot govern different paths i am encouraged by other sides that would help the future islamists through reform and they have taken a path i have not seen over the past decade when it comes for the moderation in the brotherhood even the saudis there are movements to push back against radicalism. If there are political who would connect in the advancement then in the future with the help they have a role in helping we could see the movement. Host some viewers may not recognize the movement. Guest it is a religious university of egypt which is recognized as the leading sunni religious university based in cairo. Its virtually for the catholi catholics. Host this image that you presented is one that are you discouraged about the prospect for this kind of democratic islam in urging that we have seen happened in turkey cracks i am discouraged by the fact that the party to be very clear about it which was supposed to be where none other should be going into the other islamists should be going. Which of course is the most advanced. It was a homer for many around the world be the model for the islamists. Now the party came to power and changed and affected the Foreign Policy not in the direction that we would hope that would be closer to iran and the sudan that isnt what many had hoped. And then only when the Party Started to put pressure on the secular demonstrations why am i hopeful because now the younger generations in turkey have understood the path should be to accept muslim democrats to refuse any time there is an attempt to take away some of their freedoms. So turkey is also moving forward towards more resistance by the secularist for the pluralism and democracy. Host we are down to the last few seconds. You are closing on a hopeful note about the region. Last thing, do you also feel hopeful about the u. S. Policy that has disappointed you to this minute . Guest this is an issue on the philosophy and academics. My call to Congress First is to be more engaging and the Foreign Policy. But i still have two listen to othetwoother advisors. Listen to an alternative view because we have been warning about many things that have happened in the past so i would strongly advise the Obama Administration and the mandate to widen the scope of whom they are listening to. Host its nice talking to you and i hope that many people will read your book. Guest thank you for discussing the issue. That was afte after words inh authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, Public Policy makers, legislators and others familiar with their material. After words airs every weekend on booktv at 10 p. M. On saturday, 12 and 9 p. M. On sunday and 12 a. M. On monday. You can also watch online. Go to booktv. Org and click on after words in the book tv series and topics list on the upper right side of the page. We have to remember two things i think. First, we are there because we are attacked and new york city thats why we went to afghanistan if president obama said there is a limit to this within two years we are not giving it any more. So, i agree with you at some point you have to let them do it. But in our first goal if we get away from the afghans etc. And look at what the first goal was if i had told you or any of the listeners in 2001 that we wouldnt be attacked again in the United States of america for the next decade, none of us would have belief that. Because at that point al qaeda had more of the advantage. Now we really have all qaeda and other terrorists definitely on the defensive. And so, we can at this point get out is that the forces from afghanistan. So, i agree with you. But we have been successful in what we really want to do as a country that is to protect ourselves. Vietnam veteran, assistant defense secretary during the reagan administration, analyst and author will take your questions. In depth for three hours starting at noon eastern next sunday on cspan2 book tv. James is next on booktv. He argues that if americans want to know what the country will be like as liberals have their way on taxation they need to look no further than california where citizens are taxed more heavily than anywhere else in the country. This is about one hour. [applause] i want to thank you very much for that introduction. And i think it is actually is just an outstanding example of the Young Americas Foundation and the high quality people that work with the Young Americas Foundation. I appreciate your intelligence and i also appreciate that you are dressed as if you were at the ranch with your cowboy shoes and im reminded of the fact that very near where i live is the swallows day where they have a lot of books that you can be arrested for without cowboy boots. So, i wear them once a year. [laughter] i understand that theres some students here. Now you know i graduated from there and as a matter of fact i was a border there and because you dont have the boarding school anymore, i had a habit of talking after curfew. They would tell us you cant talk after 9 45 or 10 00 and i kept getting in trouble so for those of you that havent attended an institution or dont go there, there is a concept of punishment that we have called job and that is referred to as a justice under god. And i was one of the most heavily jugged students. But talking helped lead to something because i got to express myself well in this book. As a part of the book is the defined education that i got. Well, you know theres a couple things i want to really go on and on with you about the tax and about californias problems anof californias problems andas relate to places out of the state. Can i see a show of hands of those that are outside of california . Okay. So this is going to be a little bit california centric and you are in california and about the municipal problems and the bankruptcies relate across the board not only just to california but the thing is that they are just leading the nation. Now many of you have heard of that terrible nearness avoid bankruptcy in detroit that is the largest bankruptcy that has occurred in the nation