Transcripts For CSPAN2 Amb. 20240705

Hello again folks. We are in the final two sessions of the day and have a great set of program to end the day. It starts with a live recording of one of the most popular podcasts and her guest today is someone known well to truman and many of you. U. S. Ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomasgreenfield. Please welcome them to the stage. Hello everyone, make some noise for yourselves are coming out here today. [applause] welcome to true con 2023 into our live recording. The dutch im jocelyn hell. Like a lot of you in the audience today im a policy nerd and i cannot lie, the part in high school is really excited now. Im thrilled to be joined by a woman who does not need an introduction but i will attempt to give one anyway. Before ambassador Linda Thomasgreenfield began serving to the United Nations, she had already retired from a neared four decade career. She served as the assistant secretary of state for African Affairs and had postings in several countries. This only touches on a few of her many credentials but for this conversation i want to do zoom in on the african continent and its role in geopolitics right now. Thank you so much for joining me. Amb. Thomasgreenfield thank you for inviting me. Jonquilyn before we jump in i want to address an elephant in the room. We are two black people talking about Foreign Policy. Sadly you dont see that all that often. How comfortable are you about diversity in the Foreign Service and what steps need to be taken . Amb. Thomasgreenfield that has been a real priority for me throughout my career. I served one of the one of the positions i served and was director of personnel, director general of the Foreign Service and state department. What we should do is what you did, its model u. N. , getting out to communities, talking to young people so that they know that this is a career option for them. I gave a speech at a high school for a graduation and i told them i never had a me, and speak to my High School Class so i didnt know diplomacy was an option. Now they have that knowledge as they go off to college. I think its reaching out to young people at a young age encouraging them. For those of us who have already reached positions like im in, to mentor those coming behind and i spent an inordinate amount of time venturing mentoring young people who are interested in Foreign Affairs careers. Jonquilyn i want to pivot to africa now. What is the big vision the Biden Administration had for the continent. What came out of the summit the president hosted and what comes next . Amb. Thomasgreenfield i spent most of my career in africa as you saw from my bio. Africa is the new frontier. It is the last frontier. It is the continent that has the only continent left that has all of the resources needed to make a difference in the future. They have a really strong youth population. The median age is just 19. That young population will be populating jobs around the world in the future. Africa has Natural Resources that have not been capped and those Natural Resources will be important as we look at whats needed in the future. Again we felt as we hosted the leader summit that we needed to reaffirm our commitment, our relationship, our partnership with the african continent and i think we accomplished that and continue to work on that. Jonquilyn i want to zero in on one of the stories prior to the current conflict it seems like that country was on tap to be a fullfledged democracy. Going against the trend we are seeing across the globe towards autocracy. What do you say to critics who point the finger at the u. S. . Particularly for working with the military . Amb. Thomasgreenfield these two generals are responsible for the situation. The civilians, Civil Society really stood up for democracy and we supported them. The United States backed their effort and we packed the transitional government. And then two military guys fighting for their own ambition have now taken this country 10 steps backwards. We need to get back to a situation where civilians are leading the process. There is a transition that had civilians in leadership roles and supporting this countrys move towards democracy. It is easy to blame the u. N. , to blame the United States, to blame the world, the blame is on us, on the shoulders of these two individuals who started this conflict and they can end it and they should. Jonquilyn what role do you see the u. S. Playing and ending that conflict . Amb. Thomasgreenfield absolutely. We are engaged in trying to find that solution bringing the two parties to the negotiating table. Pushing the efforts and supporting the efforts of the region to take leadership on the situation and were expected to play that role. It is something where those parties who are engaged want to have the u. S. Involved. Jonquilyn in what way do you see the u. S. Playing that role . What are the actions but we could or should be taking. Amb. Thomasgreenfield you may know just yesterday we announced sanctions on the two leaders. We have put some travel restrictions out, of these are restrictions on individuals who are involved in this violence. I think that is the First Step Towards accountability because people want accountability when you have a situation like what we see happening in sudan and they look to the u. S. To lead on the accountability front. Weve also worked hard to help to find a solution that will lead to a ceasefire so that humanitarian assistance can get in. Where the largest contributor to humanitarian programs in sudan but all over the world. This is something thats very much appreciated by the people of sudan but also others around the world in the issues. I want to get into another top story. Some nations are decided to remain neutral. African countries made up about half of the extensions during the u. N. Vote and leaders from six african nations are set to meet separately with president putin and zelenskyy. What do you see as these nations possible role in that conflict. Amb. Thomasgreenfield the six nations who have offered to be involved in trying to find a peaceful solution. This is something we support. All of us want peace but peace will start with russia. Russia started this unprovoked aggression with ukraine. Russian troops are inside of ukraine in this war will end tomorrow if russia pulls their troops out and stop the fighting. So for us, you cannot be neutral. When there is an attack on the very values that we all hold dear that are founded in the u. N. Charter that we all signed on to. Russia has broken all of those rules and until they stop this fighting and until they engage on finding a solution, we wont have one. Our position has been clear that there cannot be negotiations, there cannot be peace without ukraine. We cannot do this without ukraine. Ukraine has to be part of the discussion and we have encouraged all of these countries who have expressed an interest in finding a peaceful solution to also engage with ukraine. Jonquilyn i want to dig into south africa in particular. Putin was invited to the country and there are allegations. Did this, as a surprise to you. Amb. Thomasgreenfield we have a Strong Partnership with south africa. We worked over many years to reaffirm. We are also clear that in the support to russias unprovoked aggression against ukraine is unacceptable. Were not telling south africa with our poor and pop their Foreign Policy should be. So the decision is their decision. What putin is a war criminal. Putin has been convicted or being prosecuted by the itc. The accountability for him being the leader of what has been a consistent and high level human rights violation against the ukrainian people i think has to be taken into account by any country who makes the decision that will make the decision to engage with him. Jonquilyn why are we seeing these countries straddle the fence when it comes to ukraine and russia . As the west not given them a compelling argument . Whats going on . Amb. Thomasgreenfield i cant speak for these countries. As i said earlier what we can say if you believe in sovereignty, if you believe in the integrity of borders. If you believe in the u. N. Charter, then you cannot support russia. The decisions some have made. Its only been about six countries total that have voted with russia. 140 plus he voted against russia in the two resolutions. In some countries have made the decision have to explain that themselves. Jonquilyn south africa has been vocal about u. N. Security. Mainly adding permanent members from the continent. Im curious what you think of the possible additions and why we are seeing this shift now . Amb. Thomasgreenfield we made the shift. I gave a speech in september in San Francisco that outlined our vision for Un Security Council reform and how we will intend to move forward. President biden gave a very well watched speech during high level week later in september in which he announced that the u. S. Would support additional permanent and nonpermanent members of the social of the Security Council. And that the u. S. Would support additional permanent members from africa, latin america and the caribbean as well as other parts of the world. Thats actually ramped up the conversation on u. N. Reform. I have continued over the course of the past few months with what ive called a listening tour among the countries and regions in the u. N. To get their ideas of their solution, the recommendation and we will be looking at those over the course of the next month. To see what our next steps ought to be. But again, countries are watching the u. S. I think south africa is also watching what we are doing and what we are saying as we look at what they would like to see in terms of viewing. The u. S. And china shared an interest in africa. Its rich in resources. It has a large and young population and it has soft power as well. There are so many Music Artists and movies coming out of africa. They are everywhere. Meanwhile, china has made inroads on the continent in regards to infrastructure, china set up telecom infrastructure. They are Exchange Students for programs. There are exchange programs. Are you worried about chinas influence on the continent . Amb. Thomasgreenfield our africa policy is our africa policy. Its not about china. Its about our partnership with africa and our partnership is longterm. Weve been on this continent since the beginning and i always refer to the fact that we have a diaspora here in the United States. They dont have a diaspora living in china. Their people who are american citizens who have backgrounds and touch every single country on the continent of africa. Our relationship on that continent is strong. We are working to build that relationship and make it even stronger. And we think we are making progress. We are not telling african countries they shouldnt have a relationship with china. That they shouldnt trade with china. We trade with china. We want to ensure that the partnership that we build with the continent, that the people of africa is a long term partnership, longterm relationship that African People will benefit from. As a result of that relationship. How is the u. S. Navigating the overlapping interests when countries want to work with the u. S. And with china. Amb. Thomasgreenfield its fine. We are not telling african countries they shouldnt work with china. They should work with countries and they can choose to work with countries that meet their interests. And if they are able to work with china and meet the goals that they have. We are not telling them not to do that. Our policy is about what we do with africa. If you look at programs like the malaria initiative. Would we have done in the area of hiv and aids on the continent of africa. Those relationships are very strong and i think if you ask and ive seen some surveys that have been, if you ask africans what their preferences are. They will clearly state those preferences are to be aligned with the United States. A critique not just the u. S. But the west in general gets is that they dont really Pay Attention to africa until something happens. And its arguable that thats partially why china and to an extent russia have been able to form relationships the way they have. Im curious what are some ways the u. S. Has misstepped in the past and whats the plan for course correction and building a closer relationship . Amb. Thomasgreenfield i would turn that around. Again a relationship with the continent is longterm. I went to africa first in 1972. I spent my whole career in africa. It annoys me when i hear people say we ignore africa. I want to know what ive been doing for 40 years. And im not the only one. We Pay Attention to this continent. We engage with the continent, with the people of africa. It didnt just start when the chinese came on board. The chinese came late. They are new to this continent. We have been there since day one. We were the first country to recognize ghana in 1957 when they got their independence. If you look across the board we have been engaging in the continent. We are there when theres trouble. Because your friends need you even more when theres trouble. There is a famine butting in the horn of africa. Because of u. S. Funding we were able to avert that famine last year. We gave almost 2. 5 billion to the horn of africa to avert the famine. This is something that the chinese can. It soft power but it saves lives. Africa knows when they are in trouble we will be there. We are not fair weather friends. We are there in bad times and good times. Jonquilyn i want to look at another country as well. Here in the u. S. Its june 2, its pride month. We are going to see so many parades, so many celebrations. In uganda theres been news uganda has been in the news for its antilgbtq laws. What are your thoughts on the rising antigay sentiment on the continent. Amb. Thomasgreenfield it is worrisome, you saw the president s statement on uganda. What uganda has done criminalizing homosexuality, really going against all the rights of the Lgbt Community is unacceptable. Its happening all over the world. Its not just in africa. We have seen it in other places in the world as well. The u. S. Has made a strong stance against these laws against criminalizing lgbt, imposing death sentences on people because of who they love. Weve been clear across the board uganda is the latest but not the first. We have to continue to engage on this issue wherever we see it everywhere in the world. Jonquilyn i want to turn the proverbial microphone over to the audience now. We have some audience questions that we collected prior to this. Arthur asks should the United States be preparing for a multipolar world or securing our document position. Amb. Thomasgreenfield we are in a multipolar world and we have worked to ensure that we are continuing to take a leadership role in that world. This is something that the world asked for for the few years but we stepped away from multilateralism. When we stepped out of the human rights council, we were missed in the day we came back people applauded. They want u. S. Leadership. Our leadership is welcomed but we also want to work with other partners in a world that has changed. This is not the world of immediately after world war ii. This is not the world 70 years ago when the u. N. Was created. Its why we support the u. N. Reform and we think the u. N. And Security Council should be more representative. Jonquilyn i want to get a question from cory who asks with the rise of authoritarianism around the world threatening democracy how are you countering foreign propaganda and disinformation that oftentimes can change elections around the world and Impact National Security by creating false narratives around pandemic, human rights and fragile democratic institutions. Amb. Thomasgreenfield thats a question we should all ask ourselves. Because it is a problem we are seeing around the world. But we still see the fact in most places around the world people want democracy. They want governments to deliver and they see theres a strong democracy that it can deliver for the people. I do think we have to ramp up our own narratives. We have to ramp up would we are doing around the world so that people do not buy into the false narratives that are being perpetuated. Jonquilyn how is the u. N. Security council and broader u. N. System adapting and incorporating emerging Technology Like ai for instance to address issues of human rights, peace and security. One of the opportunities and risks of this for the uns work and its workforce. Amb. Thomasgreenfield we had a meeting, its an informal meeting of the Security Council and we talk about cybersecurity and how technology can be used for good and try to understand how this is being used for bad. This is something we are working on. The secretarygeneral has appointed a new cyber envoy and we are working closely with him as he tries to address these issues. We talk about womens peace and security and in the context of womens peace and security we have also looked at how technologies can be used for good and try to understand how its being used for bad as well. This is something that is definitely a high priority for us and we will continue to improve our abilities in this area. Jonquilyn with respect to the Sustainable Development goals summit this september, where does the u. S. Stand to rescue the sdg by 2030 and how has the administration worked with congress to make the u. S. A leader in fulfilling this commitment . Amb. Thomasgreenfield you mustve read some talking points i had recently where ramping up our efforts to support the implementation that includes working with congress to ensure that we have the support from congress to do the necessary work that we see and will need to be done over the next few months and years. I think the summit thats taking place in september will be a key watermark on where we are and what else we need to do to make sure we get there by 2030. How hopeful you about Getting Congress on board. We are in such a polarized time right now. Amb. Thomasgreenfield it is hard work but it was work that needs to be done. Members of congress have been very supportive of these efforts on both sides. But again it is something that we have continued to work on. Jonquilyn ambassador, thank you so much for joining. [applause] jonquilyn thank you for joining this live taping. You can find new episodes every wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. When jamie raskin announced his campaign it, he said it my ambition is not to be in the Political Center. It is to be in the moral center. Congressman raskin lead with his values, and the constitutional Literacy Rate project to fighting for Marriage Equality and advocating for Civil Liberties rated he safeguards our rights and stands up for marginalized communities. In the aftermath of the january 6 attack on our democracy, he investigated the national tragedy. For this, we honor congressman jamie raskin. [applause] please welcome back to the stage the president of the Truman Center. [applause] jonquilyn good afternoon. How are we doing it . Its not a conference without hundreds if not thousands of gallons of coffee. We supply it. It is your obligation to drink it. Thank you for sticking with us. What a day. [applause] i learned some things about geneva, wisconsin i never knew and maybe wish i didnt. A cautionary tale to be sure, and a good reminder that history is around us. Speaking of history, that was a fantastic conversation between the ambassador. Thank you again. [applause] the entire team for partnering with us, this is your queue. They have been tremendous. We are not done with the ambassador yet. Now, we get to what is one of the most special and cherished parts of our tradition. The presentation of our award for exceptional moral courage in Public Service. Every year, we give this award to recognize a Public Servant whose values have led them to do what is right, even when doing so might have been unpopular or posed personal risk. Weve been thrilled to present this award to alexander vindman, muriel bowser, to our very own United States ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomasgreenfield. Our tradition, which makes for challenging scheduling is for the previous recipient to present the award to the newest honoree. We are very glad to continue that tradition this year. Without further ado, let me welcome back again to the stage ambassador thomas greenfield. [applause] ambassador i cant see you with all this light. Let me thank her for that reintroduction. I was honored last year to receive this prestigious award. At the time, from mayor bowser. It really was a true honor. It is now my great honor to pass the baton of the truman award for exceptional moral courage to representative jamie raskin. Representative raskin has one of the most remarkable careers in Public Service in this countrys history. For more than 25 years, he served as a constitutional law professor at american university. He taught some of our brightest minds, the nittygritty details about the highest laws of our land. He cofounded the Marshall Brennan constitutional literacy project, which boasts 20 chapters around the country, working with High School Students to teach them about their constitutional rights. He served as state senator in maryland for a decade, where he took on statewide issues, from the Death Penalty to the fight to legalize samesex marriage. He was elected to congress in 2016. His rise afterwards was born not from ambition, but from a deep sense of service. This personal and political trauma collided. Jamie lost his remarkable 25yearold son to depression. The day after the burial, jamie was in the capital with one of his daughters and his soninlaw when the insurrectionists attacked. The title of his book on the subject sums it up in one word. Unthinkable. And yet, he was armed with tommys last words, look after each other. That is exactly what the congressman has done. He has been one of our most prominent and powerful defenders of democracy and all the good it does in the world. As the lead impeachment manager for the senate trial of president trump, he brought together a sober, compelling, dutiful case. He took the time to lay out the facts, not only to ensure the public knew exactly what happened, but gave us the gift of the truth so that we could process and heal. For his brave efforts to stand up for the constitution and everything we hold dear, the new yorker declared him person of the year. He has continued that work on the United States house select committee. It brings his deep expertise to bear on the role of far right extremists. As if this were not enough, last year, he was diagnosed with lymphoma. We would have understood if he had said enough was enough. He had served his country well and focus on healing. After the chemotherapy took his hair, he kept showing up, asking questions, holding investigations, writing legislation. He has one on it today. We were all relieved and grateful when he rang the bell and announced cancer was in remission. [applause] last year during my own acceptance speech for this award, i said the greatest challenges inspired the greatest courage. I can think of no one who is faced greater challenges or who has inspired greater courage then jamie raskin. I admire you so much. Your bravery is in human form. It is a privilege to present you with this award. [applause] rep. Raskin thank you for those lovely remarks. I want to thank the Truman Center for this honor. I am moved beyond measure and beyond justification to receive this award. I must confess i didnt know if the hecklers or the music would get me first. [laughter] rep. Raskin i am filled with some dissenting thoughts i would like to articulate. The first is an existential sense, i didnt experience having any choice in doing the things i did in the stories the ambassador told. I felt necessity and inevitability. The thought of courage did not come to mind. I suppose i walked around with the values i was raised with and educated on as we all do. My dad used to say when everything looks hopeless, you are the hope. What you described as courage might be better described as guilt or a certain kind of civic selfrespect. Or maybe even a certain kind of pride in our democracy and our constitution and a sense of a diggnation indignation that people would trample them. Fundamentally, i think moral courage and political life is better seen in collective terms. I do see extraordinary courage in the work of the january 6 committee and our amazing staff. In the 232 members of the house of representatives voted to impeach donald trump for inciting a violent insurrection one week after our chamber was stormed. The nine members of the Impeachment Team went over to the senate and worked through the night to deliver the evidence of that high crime and the 57 democratic and republican members of the senate who delivered the most sweeping i partisan vote in American History to convict a president for committing crimes against the republic. Above all, i see real moral and political courage in the movements of American History, in the millions of people who fought for all of the moral progress that is codified and built into the fabric of our constitution. If you read the constitution way i do, the majority of the amendments we have had since the original bill of rights were democratizing suffrage extending , civilizing amendments to the constitution. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. The 14th gave us to process. The 15th band race discrimination in voting. It shifted the mode of our election of senators from the legislatures to the people. The 19th doubled the franchise by giving women the right to vote. The 23rd amendment gave people in washington dc the right to participate in president ial elections. The 24th band poll taxes. The 26th lowered the voting age to 18. The overwhelming trajectory of our National Determination embodied in the preamble to form a more Perfect Union has been toward this magnificent progress, making us the greatest multicultural multiracial multiethnic multireligious constitutional democracy. You can read the record of it, the chronicle of it in the constitution itself. I would follow lincoln insane the nation began not really with the constitution, which was flawed in many way because of the compromises with slavery, but with the declaration minute of independence with lead with the democratic consent of the governed and the founding idea that all men are created equally. If we ask in what sense, we know some are born wealthy and some are born impoverished, some are born tall and short. With all of these different endowments, in what sense are we born equal . In terms of our moral past city. All of us can choose to do good or to do evil. All of us can choose to stand with the democrats of the world or with the autocrats. All of us can choose to act with solidarity and the comparison or with cruelty and indifference. All of us can choose whether to advance a public philosophy that says government must be an incident of the common good, or it should be an instrument for private self enrichment for the people who get into Public Office and for their families and friends. I know a story about jimmy hoffa, which my dad once told me. It crystallizes this point about the necessity of moral choice. He was subpoenaed to go before the Senate Subcommittee on racketeering and organized crime. It was Bobby Kennedy who was one of the councils on the committee who said to him something to the effect of as the president of the teamsters and the secretary general of the pension fund and all of these offices, a man of your great power is capable of doing both very great good and very great people. Hoffa said, i intend to live up to both of my responsibilities. It is up to us. Are we going to live up to our responsibility to do good and evil, or just good. This is what matters. This is why we are created equal. We get to choose. The talk of moral courage makes me a little uncomfortable. Everyone understands how the complexity in an unjust and violent world and the necessity of making shortterm compromises and the demands of moral engagement and social progress collide constantly, every day. None of us can get it right every time. It is often impossible to understand the moral consequences of our actions until after they have taken place, to act in politics is to take responsibility not only for advancing your ideals, but for trying to confront in different ways the injustice and cruelty that make up the fabric of our world. I am a member of congress who has been a champion of ukraine and their struggle to defend their National Sovereignty and their democracy against the lawless and bloody imperial aggression of Vladimir Putin. [applause] rep. Raskin i believe the democratic movements of the world have a deep interest in repelling and handing russias atrocity filled aggression against the ukrainian people. Ukraine must win. We are all invested in that. I have advocated and voted for every form of assistance to ukraine. Billions of dollars to fight a war against Vladimir Putins bloody attack. The fact that i am a passionate champion for president zelenskyy does not mean that i favor the unjust wars that we have fought and initiated, like the war in iraq, which was built on lies and caused hundreds of thousands of casualties, it cost the public more than 1 trillion. The fact that i favor military and strategic assistance ukraine against Vladimir Putin does not mean i support a blank check against what president eisenhower called the militaryindustrial complex. I have voted against military budgets filled with waste and fraud. In this sense, if you believe in just wars and defense as i do, you understand the dangers to liberty from militarism and imperial aggression. Intellectual honesty compels us that war is a dangerous threat to you mandy and war as i hope Vladimir Putin is coming to realize every day doesnt really work anymore as an instrument of social domination. The difficulty of acting effectively in a world beset by violence and militarism doesnt make our comparative and guideposts irrelevant in politics. It makes these principles central. When i got into politics in 2006, i was running for state senate. I went out on my front porch and subfreezing january weather, i laid out everything i wanted to do, abolish the Death Penalty and our state, past the popular vote law, decriminalize marijuana, a woman came up to me afterward and said i love your speech. Take out everything youve got in there about gay marriage. Its not going to happen. Even the gay candidates dont talk about it. It makes you sound really extreme. This was an early moment of truth for me. This woman had been standing for an hour in freezing weather. I didnt want to offend her. My three kids were there. I rumor my son looking at me to see how i would answer. I had an epiphany. I want to thank you for telling me that. It made me realize its not my ambition to be in the Political Center. Its my ambition to be in the moral center. Thats why i call myself a progressive. Our job is defined what to write the best we can and to bring the Political Center to us. That is my vision of what politics is. My favorite story is when i first announced, one of the local commentators from our local newspaper said his chances of victory are considered impossible. I was running against a 32 year incumbent. Nine months later, we got 67 of the vote. Another article in the Washington Post quoted upon it who said his victory was inevitable because the pundits are never wrong. I like to tell the young people in our Democracy Program that in politics, nothing is impossible, nothing is inevitable. I was delighted that when i went to the state senate and i spent a decade there, we were able to get done every single thing that i said i wanted to participate in and announcing my candidacy. I ran for congress and i was elected the same night donald trump was elected president. I came to congress and im very proud of the things our majority accomplished in the 117th congress. Reductions in the cost of prescription drugs and investment in Climate Action and all of that. For most of my time since i assumed federal office, ive been involved in the work of defending constitutional democracy, defending the rule of law, defending freedom. Sometimes you play offense, sometimes you play defense. The key is not to be shy about your convictions. I once had a very brief conversation with the manager of the hotel in rwanda, the subject of the movie hotel rwanda. He and his family were responsible for saving more than 1000 lives. I got the chance to ask him a question. What was the difference between you and the people who didnt act to shield people during the course of the genocide . He said the answer astonished me. Ive never been able to forget it. He said a lot of people walked around with guilt and shame about something theyve done their past. That makes them feel they cant do it think good in the present. I realized although i had done some things i wasnt proud of, i still had the power to act and help a lot of people. You dont have to be perfect in order to do good. What a powerful lesson that is. How many people feel disabled by virtue of something they have done in the past or something that is happened to them. You cant let that stand in the way of doing the things the world need you to do. I came across a passage that echoes this. Audacity and pride are on the side of the guilty. Shane and embarrassment are on the side of the innocent. Dont be ashamed or embarrassed. You are one of the good people. Something bad happened to you, we need you out there fighting hard. Ben franklin said if you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you. Fight hard for the achievements of civilization. Fight hard for the achievements of political democracy in america. It is not income and upon you to finish the work. Neither are you free to evade it. I will close with the words of two great americans. One is frederick douglas, born about one hour away from here on a slave plantation. He escaped slavery to become one of our great freedom fighters. He said if there is no struggle, there is no progress. The struggle may be moral or material, there must be struggle. Powerful can save nothing without a demand. I will leave it with the works of the great thomas payne. A globetrotting democratic patriot who had some some things in his background he was not proud of, but he went on to write the pamphlet that would take america by storm and kickoff the american revolution. He arrived in our country just two years before the revolution and fell in love with the promise of america. He said that america if it realized its destiny would become an asylum to humanity. Not an insane asylum, mind you. But a place of refuge for people fleeing from political, religious, and economic oppression from all over the world. But in 1776 when the revolution was happening and people were not sure whether you could really make democratic selfgovernment work, whether you could really found a nation based on the idea of the rights of the people instead of the divine right of kings, and so tom payne in this pamphlet wanted to write something that would give people heart, that would encourage them. So i will just update the language a little bit at the instruction of former Speaker Nancy Pelosi because she said tom payne was a feminist, and that he was, and he would mind. But he wrote these words. He said, these are the times that try men and womens souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot would shrink at this moment from the service of their cause for their country but everyone that stands with us now will win the love and favor and affection of every man and every woman for all time. T really like hell is not easily tyranny like hell is not easily conquered but more glorious in the end will be our victory. So lets make a victory hours. Thank you very much. [applause] [applause] congressman raskin, thank you. You have, as the saying goes, taken us to church and synagogue and maybe also to law school a little bit this afternoon with your remarks. Rep. Raskin they say you can take the law professor out of the classroom, but you know. And i got here without the lsat so thank you for that. And also, this is constituent services if i have ever seen it. As a Montgomery County resident also, thank you for being here. We get to have a conversation for a few minutes. We will invite all of you to join in. Youve got hopefully a really good question you have been thinking about today because we had an earlier panel on political polarization. We have members in the Treatment Community who themselves are fighting neonazis online and in person and bringing them to court. And there are a lot of nasty folks kicking around out there, it turns out. And extremism feels closer than it has for many of us in our lifetimes. Justin munger mckinley, we talked about all the swastikas that appear, constantly it seems. It feels like a part certainly of the day job of state to a local, and national electives. So you talked a little bit about some of the legacy of history. What do you say to people about where to start when it feels so big . Rep. Raskin so, thank you for the question. The first thing is that when i went to college, we were taught about american intellectualism. Having lived through january 6 and seen what the plans were for staging a political coup against the election, overturning the election, and having seen the violent insurrection and people chanting hang mike pence and where is nancy . And so forth, i came to believe what i learned about american exceptionalism was wrong. America is not exceptionalism because we are immune to fascism or racism. I think that was Rachel Maddows point. America is exceptional just because we have ideals that were articulated even in the breach in the beginning and have been articulated through successive social and political movements insisting that this is a country that belongs to everyone. That is what makes us so exceptional. You know, i have been thinking about courage ever since you guys, you know, sent me your letter. I was checking out john f. Kennedys profiles of courage. There is kind of a myth that runs through that book. And the myth is that people only show conviction or courage when they are going against the grain, the majority. So every case that he had of a senator or representative who was a paragon of courage with somebody who went against their party. I believe that can be one demonstration of courage, but i think we need to praise people who act with conviction in courage even when they go with the majority. The vast majority of the American People reject the insurrection and treason and violent coups against the government. We need people standing up for the majority against that to you any of the minority against the tyranny of the minority. [applause] that is something because there were lots of threats against different people, a lot of my colleagues, and that is not to take anything away from liz cheney or adam kinzinger, who showed extra conviction and extra courage in what they did. Everybody who stands up for democracy should be embraced for doing that. I think we have to use the word fascism because it is obviously a loose it is obviously loose all over the world today with all of its ideological, you know, viruses, racism and antisemitism and misogyny. And all of these things are out there. That gives us all the opportunity to go and fight for the things we believe in every single day. I tell the young people, they are growing up in a much tougher time than i grew up, much tougher. But they also have the opportunity to prove their love for the things they believe in. Jenna just recently, we started getting some convictions, sentencing. Big news surrounding the january 6 insurrection of course. Can you talk little bit about, especially in your role having served as impeachment manager, what these convictions mean for the conversation and where it goes from here and why they are so important . Rep. Raskin well, the convictions are remarkable. Hundreds and hundreds of convictions now. More than 1000 cases brought. They showed the american system of justice and the rule of law and presumption of innocence and proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt before a jury of your peers works. Our Justice System works in america. [applause] you know, there are people who would like to say, and you know who, it is all political, whether by judge or your judge, democrat george or republican judge. All of that stuff is out the window. The system is working, which is why people are the humanly denouncing them. That is one thing improves. The other thing i think it proves is the complete nonsense of claims being made about the Second Amendment. Why do i say that . Because pretty much every day that we have any discussion about gun violence or the most recent gun massacre or the Second Amendment, i have colleagues who get up and say the purpose of the Second Amendment is to allow the people of the United States to overthrow the government. Everybody knows that is the purpose of the Second Amendment even though the Second Amendment does not say anything about insurrection or rebellion or revolution. None of that stuff is in the Second Amendment. All it says is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people so their arms shall not be infringed. Oftentimes my colleagues will get up and say that raskin wants us to repeal the Second Amendment. No, i dont want them to repeal the Second Amendment. I want them to read the Second Amendment. [applause] but they will go on and take that as the whole meaning of our constitution. Well, i dont have time to get into all of it now but let me give you a few counterexamples that also support that we have hundreds of these convictions and not a single one thrown out on the grounds that they had a right to overthrow the government, that they had a Second Amendment right front insurrection. Congress has the power to call forth the militias from the states in order to repel invasions and suppress insurrections. That is right there in the constitution itself. The republican guarantee clause, the Congress Shall guarantee to the people of the state a republican form of government and assist the states suppressing Domestic Violence and repelling invasions. The treason clause, which says treason shall consist of levying war against the United States. Well, what is a violent insurrection when you come and attack our officers and put them in the hospital if not levying war against us . But they have some counterexamples to that and the only one i get from that is Patrick Henry said, give me liberty or give me death, which was a nice slogan by a virginian antifederalist who voted against the constitution but otherwise has nothing to do with constitutional interpretation. But if they got some argument, why is it that none of these people has had his or her indictment squashed or their conviction thrown out on the grounds they have a right to overthrow the government . They say, well, what about the declaration that says one in the course of human events if a government turns tyrannical you can overthrow them . Absolutely right. I completely agree with them on that. As a matter of natural law, we did not sign the magna carta to say we have the right to overthrow you. If you want to appeal to the decent opinions of mankind, as jefferson did, you want to pledge your fortune and your livelihood and your lives to other people in common cause and try to overthrow a tyrant, you can do it, but you do it on your own time and your own dime. If you attack our own constitution and our own government and attack our Police Officers and we catch you and you dont win, you are going to jail in the United States of america. [applause] jenna the lunch room must be a really interesting place at the office, no doubt. We have some questions from the audience. And we have some mic runners who are going to do their duty here. Good afternoon. Thank you so much for being here and for all you do. My cushion is as we head towards 2024 and the rhetoric is already going up and we could be heading towards a bright versus trump again, what gives you hope there is not going to be a january 6 again or that we dont have you know, i come from michigan, where we came close to not having ballots certified before getting to the capitol. So what gives you hope . There is a whole room of people here who want to protect democracy, so what can we do as we lead to 2024 to make sure we do not allow it to happen . Rep. Raskin thank you. What gives me hope is the people in this room. What gives me hope is everybody in America Fighting for democracy and a majority of the people absolutely favor democracy, which is why the people who want to overthrow elections have to use things like gerrymandering of our state and federal district, illegitimate rightwing judicial activism, voter suppression, manipulation of the antiquated Electoral College, which i do think is obsolete. By the way, defending democracy does not mean defending democracy just as it is. It means making sure democracy is moving forward. And is always an unfinished product. It is always a working a work in progress. How about in the 21st century, we elect a president the way we elect senators and governors and mayors and everyone else . Whoever gets the most votes wins. [applause] the Electoral College today is not just an undemocratic institution which has given popular vote losers in this century, it is dangerous. We saw that on january 6. What gives me hope we will not have it is our resolve and determination not to let it happen. We learned a lot of lessons about fortifying the capitol. We made some improvements in the electoral count. But remember, it will not repeat itself in exactly the same way that it happened last time. There will be other efforts to suppress the vote, to pull a fast one in the state legislatures, to flip a result from one candidate to another. We need to fortify american political democracy at every level, local, county, state, federal, all of it. The people who are fighting for that are what give me hope. I am convinced we are still in the thick of this struggle as you clearly imply. I would like to think it was over. We had 57 votes in the senate which sounds like a resounding majority, but beat the spread, short of the two thirds we needed, 67, so we are plunged back into it again. It is not a pretty sight. The more difficult the struggle, the more glorious will be our victory when we get there. Jenna i will turn to our mic runners here. Good afternoon. My name is sean cooper. I am over here waving my hand. You cast an amazing vision for what you see america bringing to the citizens in this country, but i also lived in alabama for four years and met many people there who do not see that and dont see the benefit coming to them. And those people probably are not going to listen to the things you have to say. But if they did for 10, 20 seconds, what would you tell them . Rep. Raskin im sorry, which people are you referring to . The ones who do not see the benefits of a Democratic Society use terms like swap and so on and so forth. Rep. Raskin well, what i liked about Rachel Maddows presentation was she was showing that we have made all of this extraordinary democratic progress in america even though there have been those at every point who have tried to stop us, who have tried to violate Civil Liberties and prevent these expansions of the franchise and political participation. So, you know, i would talk to them about our magnificent history. But if it does not work with them, i will not spend too much time on it. I will talk to their kids because i have a lot of faith in the young generation today, which is way beyond the racism and antisemitism and homophobia and immigrant bashing. They are also in the obit beyond grammar at this point. [laughter] different problem, you know . That is a small price to pay for their progress. There is huge relational change coming 2 america. And i feel now my kids are in their 20s. I turned 60. I know that as young at least in some parts of congress. [laughter] but, you know, i feel our job, and i speak for myself and my friends in our generation, our job is to defend what we got and get the democracy moving again in the right direction. Because while we are fighting over things we thought had been settled in the last century about fascism and authoritarianism and repression, the fact that the world should be unifying to deal with the nightmare of Climate Change, and the young people understand that. We have to save the democracy first so we can save the species and the climate in this century. And we dont have a lot of time so we have to act fast. We should not give up on anybody as you are suggesting. We should reach out to everybody, but if it is taking too much time, we have to talk to other people because we just need majorities everyplace, you know . I will tell you one funny story. I got a friend who i love who i was in congress with the first term in lamar smith from texas. He was chair of the committee on science and technology. I spotted him as a republican that i could be friends with because he was the chair of the committee on science. Not everybody believes in science where i work. One day we were sitting on the floor and we were in our committee. I said to him, lamar, we can disagree about taxes and stuff, but when we get down to become you guys have to get serious about Climate Change because the whole future of our civilization and our species we are talking about. He said, well, you got your scientists and we got our scientists. That is not how science works. It is not like rival party teams. We had a computer. I said lets go to the website of the great scientific installations. Marilyns beautiful and congressional district. We went to the fda website and nih website. All of the professional scientists agree Climate Change is real. Pointed at the neck of humanity. Let me tell you about professionals. Professionals built the titanic. Amateurs built no was arc noahs arc. Ok . Wait, does that mean you want amateurs flying you back to texas this weekend or performing heart surgery . Some of this at this point is just rooted in ideology. I think lamar has developed in his thinking about Climate Change a lot, which is really good. He sent me a Campaign Contribution when he Left Congress too. He knows where i am on climate. I do think that in the sweep of American History, everybody will come, most everybody. Not the proud boys and the people convicted of seditious conspiracy against the government. We will not convince them, but the majority of the people are coming along. That has to make us happy. That has to make you happy. It is just a race between the very clear will of the majority and some antiquated Political Institutions and practices. Jenna that is an excellent reminder and an inspiring note on which to close that there are people out there, a lot of them in this room, fighting for this work and that progress is our history and we have a lot of work to do. Thank you so much. Rep. Raskin rep. Raskin thank you. [applause] thank you. [applause] everybody, lets give another round of applause. [applause] truly a champion for truman values and a congressional mensch if there ever were one. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Folks, we have had a very full day here. I dont want to stand between you and freedom so i will be brief and really just say thank you for being here, for the good questions, for engaging, for introducing yourselves to each other, for connecting, and lets give it up for our tremendous day we have had today. [applause] i learned early in my career, always be nice to the guys on the mics. We have a great team here with our production team. Jasmine, who has been a total star working backstage. There are a lot of folks who you havent seen because everything has worked so smoothly, and we appreciate them. Our amazing staff, thank you. [applause] it is as good a time as any to remind you that doing this costs money. And we count on all of you and your friends to support us, so you can do that at trumancenter. Org. It is tax deductible. It makes everything here possible. We want to keep this continuing and growing and strong. We appreciate your support. If you are to me members who were on our panels today and introducing people and interviewing, thank you to all of our truman member participants today. And to all of our truman members here, dont have too much fun because we will see you bright and early tomorrow morning for the start of trucon member weekend. Thank you. [applause] [indiscernible chatter]