Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On Firefight 20150829

Tonight as we welcomed the discussion for the book firefight. All cell phones, ipads or whatever that makes noise please silent or put on vibrate. There there books for sale at the register and buy them plentifully so we can continue to do for events like this one. There will be a short reading and a panelist discussion and then assigning to follow. Tonights event is being filled by cspan for book tv and we are honored to have them with us, please be aware that you may be a bill for this event. Well be passing a microphone around for the questionandanswer period. So if you have a question at the end please make sure that you have a microphone in your hand. Thanks for working with us on that. Our featured author is ginger adams otis, she has been writing about new york City Politics for more than a decade. She is a staff writer at the Ny Daily News and has written for the New York Post. Wnyc, the ap, bbc, National Public radio and the village voice. Her new book, firefight is a century long battle to integrate new yorks bravest is based on nearly ten years of reporting and interviews with firefighters. It traces the history of race in the new York Fire Department from the first black firefighter 1919. At the center of this book are stories of courage, about firefighters risking their lives in the line of duty but also risking their livelihood by battling and on justice system. She shares the stage this evening with these firefighters, all members of the Vulcan Society, an organization started in the 1940s to combat segregation and racism if the fdny. The members here are all currently active firefighters who appear in the book, our Paul Washington [applause]. , former president of the Vulcan Society and Michael Marshall [applause]. , a former Vulcan Society president and fdny diversity advocate. The discussion will will be moderated by tom robbins [applause]. He teaches at the graduate school of journalism, he is a former housing and a columnist and staff writer at the voice, the daily news and the observer, he has written many highly acclaimed stories on political corruption and urban issues. Otis will reap from the do book followed by discussion of the panelist and then will have a time for discussion. Please join me in welcoming these lovely people to the stage. [applause]. So good evening everyone thank you very much for coming. Thank you Greenlight Bookstore for huston us as well and for cspan for covering this. In case you dont know who is who, thats tom robbins, thats tom robbins, captain washington, and lieutenant Michael Marshall. Im going to do a quick reading for you tonight. I will pick up about partway through the book, the book actually segues through two ways of the vulcans history and the Fire Department sister as well. It leads in the story of the founder of the vulcan association, Wesley Williams who is one of the first firefighters in manhattan, third that we know if departmentwide in 1919 and how he found his way into the Fire Department. It segues between his story in the modernday vulcans and the civil rights lawsuit that they brought starting in 2005, which is when the department of justice got of all. We are picking up in a chapter that deals with the history of paul and michael. This is when they used to go out in the 90s and they would do recruitment in the streets of brooklyn, they would go out on the weekend, and they set up a table on the corner and if they saw a young looking black person, usually male although i think they included some women who look particularly fit, there go to them and try to get them to sign up and take a Fire Department test. Many times the applicants they were approaching were wondering what it was like in the firehouse. Because i like the benefits, is 50000 per year, sounds pretty good, pension sounds pretty good but what is going to happen to me when i get inside. So well start with the story of captain washington and what he would tell some of the guys who would ask him that question on the street corner. He would tell them stories about his days in engine seven. Theres one particular incident where he was getting hayes as all do, there is a guy and a group turned to a water hose on him and another fire fire, while their shooting hoops. In their downtime basically. Paul didnt really like that, he knew he was getting hayes but he thought one of the guys running the hose was a little too enthusiastic and spraying him down, so he decided to get revenge even though a pro b was really supposed to take what was distad not complain. So he waited a while and when the firefighter in question that he didnt like was at a table, reading a newspaper, he got a got a bucket of really cold water and snuck up behind him and he flipped the bucket over his head. The guy shouts and others come running and i think its hysterical, the guys really angry and he sits there and pretends hes not aggravated. Paul is pleased with himself as he thinks he has outsmarted his elders, so were picking up at that point. Its a story hes telling other people. So the young probably was pleased with his revenge. If he had been wiser in the way of the firehouse he would know that some form of retribution was coming. The senior firefighters couldnt live in upstart and turn the tables on one of their own no matter how funny the results. One night, not long after the bucket incident washington ran upstairs to the peaceful fire has to go to sleep around two am. The night out usually has late hours. As was firehouse practice he left the lights out as he entered the pitch black bunk room so as not to wake the rest of the crew. He lay on his bed and closed his eyes. Seconds later a strange clapping sensation went over space and chest and something was falling on him. He jumped up and ran to the bathroom stopping dead when he caught his reflection in the mirror. He was covered in3 sensation went over space and chest and something was falling on him. He jumped up and ran to the bathroom stopping dead when he caught his reflection in the mirror. He was covered in fluffy white dust. A powdery halo and trotted his head and shoulders, someone rigged a bag of flour over his bunk to spill on him when he laid down he relies. Enrt hied,e stormed to the next room where he knew the older firefighter, he dumped with water while he was sure he was behind. So washington kicked the mans bed to wake him up. You think you got some kind of problem with me the why dont you get up and well deal with it he shouted. Get up, ill kick your he said. He cursed and called him names with a man refused to move. The rest of house was silent as washington raged. He was so mad he went out to the kitchen its called a message on the blackboard, calling the firefighter to coward and a punk and challenging him to step forward. After leaving it where everyone would see it in the morning he returned to the bunk room and showered off. It was later he learned that the man had nothing to do with the prank. Everyone else in the firehouse had chortled under their blankets as washington, white flour spattered across all 3 hceeded hymns stomped to the place on a shouting tear. When his sense of humor recovered he laughed about it too. What he didnt say to the young kids he was recruited was sometimes the silly pranks they were playing on each other and particularly on probays could go too far and take on a more offensive edge. He didnt tell them that some th tuel houses would appoint a firehouse goat and life was hell for that person the goal is to make that person transy pr out s early as possible. He didnt say that sometimes those who would run into is a black family without a moments hesitation with later crack jokes about the inner city families they serve. While black firefighters if there is any around pretended not to hear. If washington had wanted to he couldve told his potentially reth tuits about a firehouse in not far from his regular space. He listened to the popular lieutenant in charge, man everyone liked and respected. He talked about the college stt hie started daughter and abt how she came home once about with a young black male. I got nothing about backs pcaupe but i certainly dont want my daughter to marry one at the litiatenant laughed. The table roared, 3 hcept for washington. We set without moving. His mind flashed to the hundreds of black People Living and working outside the firehouse stores. Nearly one dozen white firefighters were there eating with them and none of them heard anything wrong with the officer he just said. What specifically would you not like about your mirror marrying a black man . Is it that you had to sit down with inlaws who are black, except a, 3 hcept a black family into your family . What exactly is your problem . The room was silent for a second and then the man the rumor rubbed it as others jumped in to dey pnd the lieutenant. In 1992 washington was settled in crown heights. His cousin gary was ak assigned there. There were many more fires, adding to the excitement a connection shared by all the firefighters, there are four other blacks in the house too. There are note knockdown verbal fights that erupted in his pacifier houses, in part because theres more blacks present and because few of the firefighters there had an appetite for that type of discussion. Ouseyond their an officer who worked regionally with him, didnt tolerate that type of infighting. He stood 5foot 8 and he saw beyond the firehouse, it wasnt a characteristic he found among other white collects. The. The stocky upbeat lieutenant who always had a smile on his space and greeted everyone with respectable th titicism is never lost his tempes ab when he did the temper, washington never witnessed him 3 hploding but he heard tales from others. He didnt gloss over the challenges black firefighters chased and the unlikely pair, sometimes met up in the firehouse to chad in his office talking brinkley about racial relations in the city. The obstacle of blacks to get on the job, the many ways they could be isolated and alone even in the midst of a firehouse th tedit with collet hiues. There one or two firefighters that he genuinely liked an enof the ne to 34, two cracked s with her talk sports with, but he didnt open about race e yout anyone with boldlunl and theyre quite moments together they reach an affinity that created a bond that washinerton had and never expected with other white firefighters. When washington was detail per day with a nearby firehouse he got into a brutal fight with someone who is known as a troublemaker. Washington always found avoiding him was the easiest to deal with him. After two hours on the temper detail when theres a break washington went upstairs and stretched out on a bunk. He wasnt aware as how much time a past when the door flew open and the firefighter stood there screaming his name. Where have you beelew we are lond aing for you. Theres a phe call for you and were calling for you and your appear taken a nap the fire fired yelled. I ought to kick your. Washinerton leap from the, you think youre a bad man go ahead and do it. Thats all he got out before the bigger firefighter lunch for her. He wrapped his arms around his neck trying to choke him, washinerton twisted and flung te fire fired around and shoved backward on the bed. When he y pll washington pounced but evn sitting on his chest it took every ounce of strenerth he had to keep the bigger man penned. They grappled without saying a word as washington struglosed to hit him hard in the face. When the firefighter succeeded in shoving washington from his chest thor still wrestling. Everything happened in less than a minute and thor from the intensity of the fight. When the fire alarm went off sideyaling to run, they stood glaring, gulping for air. A few seconds later washington was on the back of his truck zooming a way to respond to a fire. The othes ab the other man was released from his shift and went home. By the time washington got back to his own firehouse, word had already arrived, gossip ran faster than most flames creating the often repeatedd anoe, telegraph, telephone, telephone, tele firefighter. Washinerton waved away the eagerly chatter and the guy wasnt worth the hassle. A fl w weeks later he learned the troublemaker had been removed, transferred, transferred out of there and should hby te fallen o the officers of his company but none of them bothered ahouse dihe tiplinary actioouses the transfer request i come from lieut. Goldie who quietly made hesone calls and put a word in a y pw years. He never brought up to washington it wasnt something i had to discuss. Od once during one of their wandering chats, bol firey and s well why summed up his reality of his life, paul these guys i never gonna lir thor black he said. Washington had left recognized his mothers attitwasne and and the truth of his words. Row 1995 boldly was promoted to captain and not long after dit hinosed with cap cancer. As washington learned during his visits it didnt diminish his spirits. During whether hospital toxic only surprise washington with a gift. Hering a have these goldie said. Stretching out his hands. The young firefighter sought to pieces of silver in his palm, he knew they had taken the litiatenants examined the ompomotion was eminent. The inheritance was no firefighter traditiolew one set of bars handed down to another as a special token. Washington was touched and prowasn that bol fy wanted to share with them. When he made lieut. When he made litiatenant goldies bars were the ones into his collar to signify his new length rank. In washingtons experied very pp pnsple like goldie and the but he had very few problems lond aing a black man in the ebe insane if you join the fire for you and read credit. You never hby te hard hby te too througguythis a loan he would tell the young recruits and it was very truns weasteor the hope that no other black firefighter would feel as isolated andrinulnerable in a firehouse as he did in his first days. [applaire. E]. So we hby te beend anoined by ra wilson who will join us in a minute, she is the current ompesident of therinulcan sociey and the first woman to hold that office. Which is a lovely thing and im sure she is busy working because firefighters work all the timns om pplaire. S an. I will turn it over to you tom. Ill stay here you can. Good evening. Its a really good night to have this discussion, any night would ouse a good night because this s something that just doesnt get talked about very much in new yont its a good timns but i didnt realize that when ginger asked me to do this that the day is metal day. Mee dal right so for years i covered city hall in City Politics and you see a lot of nomakense that goes on around town but one of the really wonderful thing that happemak every by tear, is is the first wednesday of june when they do it. Thor in front of city hall, flags, buntings, bagpipers, everyboked shows so in their dress unifor. The chiefs and their big white hats and gloves. All the flrily show up, its a marvelous, wonderful occasion. They gather together to honor all of the acts of true bravery by firefighters and Emergency Service responders. Thor i wasnt wasnt there this year but i looked at the pictures, it struck me ahis cin as i did the first time that this is sort of like the model of what a prowas civic e wcasion that city would have. Lets honor the people that would risk their lives to go into burning buildinou and try to help us. I looked at the pictures differently ousecaire. E i was thinking about this event and i thought about how even though it is a wonent. Ncul occasion, the th towd there doesnt look like most of new york still. It looks lir dont get me wrong but it doesnt get look like the new yont doesnt lond a lir of where were sitting in. Its a dify prent citunl so how did that happen . Its one of those enduring, mystery, puzzle as to how it could ouse that we could hby tes wonderful organization, your Fire Department yet we are so daong and a time when a time when everybody was so conscious of discrimination and the need for cr advancement. Yet to this day it still r. Taimak such a small fmber. So thats what well talk about, we will try to answer a fl w questions for the next fl w mi ftes. All asked them questions and it will open it up and you folto h can open up on your feelings about this book or this event, or, or questions for people who are appeathe c can i start with you, we we havent met. Im pleased to meet you would yoignjust set the stage for us s to where we had now. Your newly eleout ed presient. Nf therinulcan se wiety, congratulations on that. What are the numbers liking a we looking at in terms of proportion of africanamerican, white, of africanamericahave. Whiting a your . Currently africanamericans right now idash every other grououse that is of color is unr 1 . Women are. 5 . I know, wow. So thaoughs where were at right now we are still working, 75 years later to make a lot of these changes happeex the numbers are progressively moving up, hoping that we purse passed 6 , i think thaoughs the most we have had in the history of the dl. Arookent. Six or 7 . We are hoping to pass that. We are working diligently to change those numousers. Hol you you better firefighter since 1989, correct. Youve seen some changes over a perient. N of time since you hbye been there. Do you feel as a result, a lot of this book is about legal case that was filed by the Vulcan Society to try to address this ineq, gty. How how do you thi c its doing . I think because of the laws, gt thats when the ent. Pa. Thement had an opportunity to see the most minorities come out of the class. Most of the classes weve had have been record numbers in history. Our last class had about 53 ook ricanlrericans and thats e of the highest numbers weve ever had. We are mporing strides and our numbers are growing. Because of the lawfronit this is why ioughs been a possin thlityd as for women, the original amount of women that clre in was 41, we are at 46 now. Its very slow. Were still hoping to make great strient. S but because of the lae a, gt we have been able to t more numbers then, due to the hard work of these two gen l. Ten right here and the rest of the Vulcan Society that have been pa. Theicipating. Hol let me ant t another questn before you go. I heard you sad another event that you hby te de or recording of it, there a lot of misunderstanding about this test in tereel of whether people who have failed it in fact, the test is very competitive. You have to hby te how high of a fmber in order to pass . In order to be ill eligible question mark. Hol i thi c that is one of the biggest misconceptions, it even goes that way with some of the firefighters. Some of the firefighters from the test were upset with saying the test was lowering of standards and i passed the test but if you get a 97 or below you will not get hired. So if anybody got a 90 on a test before youre lir the fire dl. Arookent will not gt hired. So you cant you cant say someone fail the test ouseca upe thor they just failed to get hired, so when you have ook ricate,lrericans who may noe in the top, may be in the middle, they are not getting higher. Or mayouse lore on the borefom doesnt nestor limited failed the test. They may have gorefen an 88 which is passing o everpleody else, but to the Fire Department it, but to the fire ent. Pa. Thement it would not allow you to get hired. So those are some of the reasons we seq this broad i act of not ouseing ad le to reach that gro, because the way the test was struout ured it was not gr minorities a fair chance and just taking the test. Hol a lot of pee ple are lined p to tpore these tests, the number of test take them, theres thousands of pee ple every timns and theres a reason for that, captain washington washington right. These are goodmobs, these are solid stable jobs. You have a condensed work week so that allows you to purfrone other things in your off time but in addition to tha ta there somethinevenelse that is a trickledown effect that i think all of the families that are ouseen lir firefighters both in their family and community, thaoughs really i ortant as to why this is really meaningful to the africanamerican community. You yoigncame from a firefighting community, you stand this tell us about the importance of what it meamak to hby te firefightern the community and the family. First thing i would say is i have some of my kids here tent. , it is the type of job where if youre not flriliar with how goent. N themg is, a lot of tims you dont strive to do it. A lot of things pee ple thi css thor hurt or killed on this job. So that tends to mpore them on the shy away from it. Thats the advantage that black people in the city doned. Hby tns there so fl w black firefighter, as he said my father was a firefighter, my older brother kevin was a firefighter, size inspired by them. It made it clear to ming a me that this is something i could do. I have older cousins as well, thats a hch te advantage. For anpleent. Ny to claim that they e a Family Member on the job, thats a hch te aunityantage. Very fl w blaorts hby te that advantage and hundreds of thousands of white do hby te tht ado wntif so theres no question about that. What is it mean for the neighborhoent. N to hby te both r ankle, your dad, coming home off the truck and showing up in thr message does that send to the coporeunity question marwhen dva pee ple in the comest wanite very proud of black firefighters. Even when they see blaort firefighters in the firehouse, theyre just proud of it. The company i work ihave. We hba ent. Cent number of blacks in the company and what people on the street cs they really lir thor its important. Lieutenant marnouall, tha c yoignfor br youve been 33 years on the firefighter. Dva yes iot oe been lieut. For 1 ting williamsburg for ten years. Dva what maent. You become a firefighter . I went to call the city test. I was drickng drickng constredon wonti and i sta. Theed constredction when i was 18, back then there is no early retir. Ten ta you could retire till youme e 65. I did the math and came up with the 47 years of constredout ion wonti and itm upt was not up wh me. I knew civilservice, the only two things i knew about thismg was that there is twentyyear pension and you didnt get laid off. So i took it on that alone, i didnt believe the twentyyear pemakion thing but i knew it was jb securitjob i didnt have ks at the time, i didnt have a lot of bilso i so i was able to mpoe the change. I took a a drop in pay to come on here because i was mporing goent. N monor when i came on i realize we had so much time off that i call that my own boss that i went back to construction work. So i did comaktrumbtion work fr a week and i worked in the firehouse on nights and weekends and i was was able to sby te soe wnnejob i covered labor for years for the daily news and the vrickce, and a lot of the constredout io. They use the trade, fatherson local to describe some of the really wellpaying traent. I realized in reading gingers book that you could almost ab ly that phrase to the Fire Department. I think i produce a lieutenant that the fire dor yarookent doe. Changeordeery quickly, it has a hard time with change. Tellhems about that. Dva well itsm upt an organization that never wants to change, thor can change, and, and they have to be forced to change. This lawsuit was a great exa le of that. And the two years since we started hiring off of this new test, we pickedhemp aof the fos0 blonstg from us 20 years. So in a sho. The perient. N a sho. The period of time we almost doubled our numbers. So it can be done but themg is just so aecainst change. There is all the commissioners we had over that time, the mayors, nobody was willing to take the step that was necessary to change the written etrucm whh was the worst cul vit. All the other other cities across the United States had change or rewontied their etrucblo, even e ones who had consents they hire because of that but they aso io changed their etrucblo. They had new roles, they had different types of moderninec etrucblo whn the fire dor yarookentm upt kot sticking with the same exam over and over and when change. Dva i like to Say Something as well to follow up with mike. Its having a good enforcead le resient. Ncy theres several othr things. Mike and myself, and other lieutenants we knew about what the vglems were and we always brought these problems to the attention of the fire ent. Pa. Thement. There is never a problem with they didnt know what happened to be doning a want to do it and we could make them do it. So what we finally did was broch tht a leqfronit, brought Media Attention to it, and political arefention to it and thars. L there are better ways to bring blacks, womehave. And pee ple of color o the fire dor yarookent than what is now become. Its good the way this but becom3 l its good the way this but it could be a lot better. They never wanted to sit down and reason withhems, we had to force them to do it. Another thing, all of this clre from the f ilkan se wiety. Mike and i got a lot of credit but it truly was a grass roots effo. The from the bal kon se wiety. It was the Hispanic Society and the womens organm atiohave. Thy didned. Mricknhems in the leqfr, they didnt join us in the other actions were tporen. In fonstt n t jout they stoent. N as far am us as they could. They didnt want any part of the f iveryans, they wanted to be e in the firehouse they stayed a far away fromhems as they could. Noiettoday they are enjoying moe benefits, the hispanics are coming onto themg from a higher or centage the blaorts right now. Women are coming on at a much higher rate than they did in the past. They did absolutely nothing to brineventhis on. As often hd ovpemak, the trailblazer leads everyone. Let me ask you, you mention city hall, the mention city hall, the mayor, the commissions knew what they had to do. I read a couple of time in off ngers book that you met wih mayor bloomberg. Mayor bloomousergs age always wanted to brepor about the fact that he was a cut above because he was data drivehave. He p med attention to numbers and metrics, thats how he made up his mind about thinghave. Somehoietwhen you tcrod him that there is 50 of the city was black and hispanic yet there is a lunch mumbh lower numouser ine department, he didnt get those mikes when themudge was in brooklyn was ruling, he said this is the the what did you make of mayor bloombergs response to your effo. Thes to try to get him to come around on this. Part of it was in society and how mumbh we want to see this change. Also i dont think they wanted to listen to us. Thor and firefighters what they know about this, on the mayor, on the coporeissioner, i know how to fx this problem and im not going to listen to these firefighters. I thi c that was a big problwe. The way it worked out, we first brought in an eeoc that co laint was is stated she hated and then they said okay Fire Department, balkans, sit down to work this pall mall. The Fire Department refused to come to the table to talk about it. Then them uptice dor yarookent investigated the Fire Department for two years when they found the same thing. They s med the same thing to the Fire Department to sit down with the f iveryans of work this out. And thor thats how we ended up with the lae auit ouseca upe they ref upo listen to reason. He clearly entered unent. Restimated you. Yoigncan state that a numouser f times. I wonder as a reporter, do you feel that city hallhemnderstood there is a problem that needed to be fixed but was afraid to do it . R w they had tohemnderstand the problem. The numbers alone show yoignthere was a problwent. It wasnt only bloomouset o, its the mayors and people who ran before him. Thor problem was, it wasnt only as telling him that they were given an illegal etrucm. Other omeliticians had contacted and wrote letters, it wasnt justhems, as everybody. It was obvio up. And you looked at the list, new and they gge the etrucblo and blonstks were aediays in the mie and bottom of the lists, time after time. We ogsy sued for te last two lis but the list before that going all the way f iort to other leqfronits. We are coming on at one and 2 , it was ridiculous. It wasnt like they didnt know. We knongo we knew etrucout ly what the problems were, the largest part was the wrirefen etrucm, everybc havabs iing things as he went down the line. Thor thor knew it. But also just listening to ginger, one of the things shes tried to do as a reporter was to figure out from city hall, why. Like to this day she does oed. Even know why they decided to go forward, looking at the statistious. In the numousers, l dont know why. Think one of the reasons they may hge come close to an ed tthis. Anation was the gentlen from the chief that said he thinfirefig that bloomouset o me ouseen p uphing the fonstt Thate Department intentionally discrimi ranted aecainst. He was prof ibly so defined against having that label on him and his administration that was pa. The of the reason they fought back. To this day we really dont know whasn thor do, something they would lose. They gothemp there and explained hoietthe testing procedures wen, so they kept losing every time but thor really indig rannt about what we call be in the wrong and strong. R w when i went through the diolovery in the lawsuit, all the way through the documents in 1999 and therougulcamak could of wnunted challenges earlier. But there was a Fire Department official who wrote a mwent withs all there in black and white and says questions have been r mesed or diversity, the impact all the people on color with these test and hge we done anything to correct this test . They are writing to the agency that theym upt mentioned and thor so someone within the fire depa. Thement aout ually tried to s as ise a flag and s med we hae had complaints about this, their alleecations that this has an impaout and has atrubody looked into it . There is no answer, there is, theres nothing in the recoced, theres no response to that. Normally the cutoff rate for these testis 70, so atruthing above is passing even though youre not going to get hired if youre in the higfie90s. That year for reasons unclear, that passing rate was set at 84. 65 or something lquee that ad even then i got a memo and said you are going to be hurting minorities even more because they tend to be in the high 80s and high 80s and low use don. We recommend, aecain doned. Do that because its compounding the 0,h thor r w so lets talk for a few minutes before we open it up. Ut. Nger opened with this inthe captain washington as a young man sta. Theing out what he encountered. But some of the stuff in the book and the casterlhemse of the nwoced and other things around the station house, im curious from the tueee of you whais ds t like now the station house. I think people are a lot more careful now about what they say. Especially since they realize they could lose their jobs by throwing ethnic slurs aroun, thi there are a lot more craftier with their discretions. I thip the fire dor yaroot is a microcosm of america, its like society at large. Things are wnre subaroe today, ronstiss still there ismust more subtle than it has been in the past. R w i would hge to anky with that but the nword is still being used. In your and peothis. E look at yoaroewhen youhim no just like captain washinqueson s med, iis ds iis a very sssiarore so the last person that got called the nword, when a, therh thor close but no cigar id say. Part of what sets the ponste for all of these conditions, we started talking about what it means to be a firefige iner and the kinds of conditions it mpors it conducive. Have the numbers in the fire ho upes change that at all, made it more comfortable . That feeling thing thats really gon ran change thing, whn ther uphs a next blacks and wom, people of color in the fireho upre when you the fireho upre when you come into my firehouse, theres 13 ofhems on dutpeopl 1r four of them are blaort, tuey r four hispanic, you have a, you have a whole difponsrent arefite and atwnhe when theres just one moment person of color one woman is a lot hare the80 so iis ds whais ds gonna changes enough of us coming onto the sitb. R w theres byn some p uphbonss well, their stories in the New York Post f merly regularly in the last f. T months about plise who they say got him because of the lae auit. And and they shouldnt ouse on themh they say there is they say they have lowered the standard mouse, one women theyre going after over and over again. Theres another man that thearoe trying to r mese etrucmple that doesnt want to fight fires. Should i be concet bed as a citizen that theres plisthis. E going on the job thats not going to race into a fire to say me and my familyfeeuestion maod. I think that not everyone who is on the fire dor yarookent is 100 . Noboc is 100 . There are people that know their sitb andfortnow theirmh there are thatfortnow their job and theres some that dont reallyfortnow theirmh i thip the level of perforae and excellence is the majority of themh with everymh that dont really hone in on their crap. Theyre there, they havow what to d with and they ce to work. Just speaking about the poles, its a really wdlced to me ouseca upe one of the things wee having a problem within within the e thepa. Thement is leaonsng of inforatio, so you are hearing this stuff that is really precise about pe wholes numousers, the score, its a violating what is going on at their time in ts as ining. So the leafirefig they hge to e care of but if you read these articles youll sy that when thor standards its only with people of color and women. So you caned. Pick tell me that white people do not do things that are not always done correcaroasn so you hge tomin tge the persn as they, and i just consider, youfortnow a person of cs asor lowering of standards. They talk about johnson now, he is a 0,iori nu a priority higher, wht do we do to look at what were doing to get these priority hires on. They doned. Fortnow wht sit sson storty s. But did the post ever put in an article or sitcedan who got a metal today. He works in 105 number 219. He sged a child out of a but binealbuilding, he got a wre up in the new york times. He has byn recog, of drlponsrent ageties and tody he received a medal. He is someone who cie tueough the vulcan socty nu, we help train him and got him on the job. He e thefi, do io he wasritery diligent and precise about what he wanted and he went atheer it. Due to the fonstt that he traind hard he received a metal today. But does the post rige in about that . Theres a few priority hires who have done heroic acts but you wl never hear about that. So now that youll see that these people cant do io they have a lot morefortnowledge of e world and how it really works. They know the resomein wibilitts of hging amh going to print it, print it right. R w f mer enough. So w uphll open ithemp to fs aso want to ask questions. The mic will be passed aroun, ti rl you hge somd thing to say just raise your hands will pass to the mic. R w you should be a, thelain ten these events in these type of issue since he came on themh wefortnow youhim but you got this so far that you should be proud of what youve donre [a, thela upe]. I have a question for the author, im surprised you host o reost you s wlh rough lanpeoat . E in a firehouse ive never heard that. Got anger what got you interesd in the Fire Department and particularly this issue and what is your ned tt projeno fee w stn maod. Retiring. From writing but i dont have a firefighter pein wion so i wl wooding for a long time. I was assigned to cover the fire e thepa. Thement when i was woronsng for the chief leader, that was my first print job. Lidont i wanted to gd t on nee apaper notfortnowing that ws the way going of the dodo bird. I tho te in i would gd t a great ed wlation thdlr cover city hall really well. I did. One of the first press conferences i was told to going cover was the Vulcan Society. It was a fasci ranting story, ii was so n mive about the city and how it worked and Civil Service and to me is all bs as ndn. T. I tho tht it was all fascinating and covered it for about ten 3 thaar i r w we are glad you didnt put together the book. Thank you so m wlh for your se a meice, my gs as ndes wthera firefighter and that i want to thank you for that. I host afee w stion about the differences between what it was like before 9 11 and atheer. Dl did you fyl that some of his pushback and reporting was coming from a feeling that mayoe it was bringing down the reputation of fdny around the world, post 911 due to the isthe pes that hge byn gwhengn for many years . I think sometimes they abuse , thelh. For an exc upre when you look at the image of the fdny across the world its a ioritie that were saying theset thin3 au about the Fire Department and we are bringing the image and we are bringing the image down. Thatsm upt an e, get us to keep quiet. R w you lost somlisne inprobnouo was someone you helped recruit, tell us about him. R w the person i lost aprobug wz dontith, he was a great guy. He came to us for Training Classes and so on, hemwhene do hemwhd theritulcan s befiety and he wan the executive board. He was a great guy. His girlfriend was my wrl uphs best friend, i hook them up and so is very sost when he passed away. That was one of my biggest fears that somebody that i help gd t onto themringi would pass awaan it was him and a couple of other firefighters that died inprobug that i host a hand of gd t in on the so is very difficult. I want to piggyback on the , thel1 comment. I thiwl that during all this time and also with the depa. Thement of things gwheng on now, plisy toe hge a tene theno blame the victim and not blame the person who has done it in the first place. Plisple need to take a look at the fire depa. Thement, dont look at the pe whole who are harmed by it ad say oh its all your fault. Pe whole deserve. Pe whole deserve to hge ament u of life. All ices i just want to go to wood, go homrso hge aritonstate have a great quality of life. I dont to be harassed, i dont want to hge a hostile en w sronmeno just want to work and take care myself like evercitrdy egoinre but you cano that were victimized by the fire depa. Thement. You hge to look at the fire d saartment and what it is and see it for what it is. Then you willhemnderstand withot laming theritictim. My name is jose garcia, i i just recenaroy rd tired atheer 5 3 thaar i [applause]. I wanted to let people know just ed tonstaroy what the procet. W. We initially started to integrate the Fire Department in new york city, when we dll it was recfee itment. But back in 1999, the budget of the n. T york fire d saar of ths or spent 1 million on recruitment. So when they say they were 0, waninealwebudnow there is a dramatic change once the lawsuit was implemented. Thats when they s med ld ts s what we can do. We had two individuals that were trty d for seconde theaty mur and those two individuals were allowed to come on we always heard or in that respect when you argue with some of these and you talk or individuals were tried for seconddegree mure ther whether thor by the way they were found innocent in albany and ac one fondle bonstk then w uphllbudnot that case destroyed a lot of faith in themin ticio up sumteh we host tuey men in the room, o have been indicted, the governor decie thes to cone bono corfeen investigatioh this is what we were dealing with and came across. Webudnew there somd thig wrondont then you. Then you mentioned bloomberg, he went from 4 sllion is worth, and then when he lnott atheer 12 years he was worth 35 billion. So alsobudyp in mind that you htere therstand so read the boo. Once that red door closes, its a whole drlrosrent world. Thor once that red door closes, urine your ovid. Ancitrdy cominghemp to the fire e thepartment, you better learnw to box. To box. Recru thallbs sitse, society did stand with the es, uans and with them all the time. Hemnfortunately he was not president during the bulk of their lae ait,t. Vee thepment it,t ply, looking e question of 9 11 and before that and the difrosrent treatment of the firle post 911 there is a lot of emotion in the fire d saar of tt and there were someritery public cases of drinking on the job, some outbursts, that moste the papers becrecse theyre so big that they could be hidden. There were not ac claims of threats to prtmelic safd ty at t time. The problem with some of the y,inppng was so bost that the commissioner for the first time implemented a zerotolerance indlicy. Ousefore that if you host a drinking problem you handled it in house, your or brother wsr would c waner for yu and make sure you went to rehab, but there mpore sure you thiwl n trouble for that. After that, after so many problems they said forget it. If youre crecgho and you come forward and say you have a problem worse send you to rle on the taxpa a lotrsmringi. Rl you get caught doing drunk, or drugs on the job then youre goinealto gd t fired. So that decision was very unpopular. So there aso iays has byn a 0,ringilevedwith some fire figds of drinking on the job, its not somethinealnew. One of the first blat p fratale firefighter fighters was found drunk and he did get in trortmee and the recommendation was he lose his job, the Fire Department when fire him, they wss is bane thed him and find hm at the union stepped up to cover his fine. Nobody taldontd about threats to prtmelic sment. D ty t time. Theres a lot that goes on there that doesno htertil you force it out. Id follow up on that and on toms question about his n. T yoboders are we say. I run a writing program and i do give a writing test want to hire people, i learned of0 years ago not to rank people on the tests. That while writing spplls were im ind. Theano i host to mpore a cut off and then look at a lot of other factorcase and and thallbs where as fitineal0,ogs as t wh firefighters is not writing program so it sounds to me lquee a sister was created that filtered if you will, white people in. So there a lot of plisy toon tht you, who pronorbly maybe shouldnt be there. That be the case of my proats n rl i hlle from the to b of my list, lets lets put it that way. I wone ther if the citizen up d i fyl saved do you feel there are too many people, white peo ble who got in tueough a systrat who may be really shouldnt be there . Or do those plisy toon the t oay get into themringi stephemp to . Will to make a long story shoro etecially if you lemse n a own hersghen [apy toause]. But youre right, a lot of ways peo ble were brodendoo ofire ne indtism that existed, it did result in people coming onto the sitb that shouldve byn there. As i i s med in my family, there are seven of us who are on the sitb. Ersther are or were on themrin. Some some of us came in because your father when tfee man s medu gograa go tpore the teso moste made them take the test or maybe someone else host a problrat tht weme ie myle to str meghten outo to pretend that everything was norsed on merit, evee thepthings tomir, evercauhing was based on merit and it was there but now it is over with. Itsm upt amunde rigdoo now. I learn so so much about reading your book and there a rosw stories in their that amazd me in terms of the person who ran the pthere who s med in a e the indwstion for the lawlem t they encourage people who knew applicanen to step forwake t ad afy ibudnow him or her. Even if you got on to, got throh that written test, then you had to get through your background, your medical, all kinds of things. And if there was something in your background that whoever was in charge of personnel found suspicious, you might be referred for review by this personal review board. And what happened there was anybodys guess, because they didnt have any best practices, they didnt keep notes, they didnt keep memos. They didnt track who went before that board and what was the outcome. And what did come out through the lawsuit and the depositions was that it was very common and, in fact, encouraged for someone who knew a candidate whod been referred for review to come forward and say, listen, that guy is a buddy of my, you know, my chief and my house, and im going to take care of him. And the woman who testified said there was a lot of domestic violence. Ah, look, he was drunk on a saturday night, and he got into a bar fight over his woman, but you can let him on the job. So these things were happening. And when the lawsuit was progressing, actually the intentional discrimination, the second part of the lawsuit got to the courts on appeal, the citys lawyers said, criticized the vulcans lawyers arguments and said, look, they couldnt even make a good case on that, they could only find one case. And i went to the lawyers after the fact, and i said, hey, thats kind of a valid point. Where was all this proof . And you only had this one example. And he said because thats literally all i could find. And hed spent weeks combing through the records and digging and looking. And those were the only few little examples that were cited in the book where he could compare and contrast. So who knows what was really going on all that time. [inaudible] okay. Yes, sir. Good evening. I really enjoyed the excerpt that that ginger read, and one of the things that jumped out at me was the officer who said to awl that he said some of these guys or whatever, these guys are never going to like you because youre too proud of being black. And so that really jumped out at me. And, you know, when you think about the Fire Department, you hear about the Fire Department, you read about it, one of the things you always hear about is the brotherhood, you know . About how tight the guys are and how, you know, off duty the guys are hanging out, and, you know, they do all these things together. Theyll, you know, donate a lung for you or whatever. [laughter] and, you know, it kind of makes sense that if you are going into a very dangerous situation, that that could create a bond. So my question is, what would you, what could you say about the brotherhood, you know, despite you being a proud member of the Vulcan Society and someone who, you know, represents this lawsuit which is kind of hated on the job . Well, you know, in terms of brotherhood, i havent felt much brotherhood on this job. I mean, im just being honest. Within my company, my specific company, i do feel brotherhood with the guys in my company. But outside of that, ive never felt, ive never felt that i was part of some massive brotherhood. I just havent. Thats been my experience. And in terms of the lawsuit how people respond to the lawsuit, i dont its been overwhelmingly negative among white firefighters. Its rare that a white firefighter will Say Something to me thats supportive of the fight that weve waged. I mean, rare to almost being nonexistent. And i think this was done over the objections of not only the mayor, but the fire commissioners, the leaders of the Fire Department, union and the rank and file white firefighters. And was not done with their aid, this was done despite them. And im so glad this book has been written and especially as well as its written. Its so exciting and riveting. [applause] but this book can be used as almost a blueprint for black people across the country who are having similar type issues. Maybe theres a lack of teachers in toledo, ohio, or somewhere else in another city. And it can show what a grass roots effort can accomplish by using the levers of power that we have at hand. I cant imagine a better ending than that one. One more . Yeah, just one more. Thank you. Tori smith,16th 136th retired. Awl and mike have been at the spear of this flight for quite a bit of time, and things that need to be known is that this test was never validated that the city fought so hard to keep which excluded blacks and hispanics and women. And not only was it not validated, the amount of money that went out of this city to the suburbs, to Rockland County and Putnam County and here and there that this city desperately needed was unconscionable 6789 we cant go to Rockland County and become firefighters. We cant even go to long island and become a firefighter. So those types of things are the reasons why we felt as black people that our sons, our daughters need an opportunity to have jobs that we have to suffer through the stuff that goes on in the city. Our children should have an opportunity to benefit from the good paying jobs in this city. And thats why we fought this battle, and its not over, and its a shame that in this day and time that the powers that be feel its Still Necessary to stop manager that they know is something that they know is right. Thats the problem. [applause] can i just add manager to that . Something to that . I think, you know, going back to the 9 11 comment and making the Vulcan Society look vilified, i think the firefighters and the firehouses should be outraged that they came on with a test that wasnt validated. Like, you know, i dont understand why they met at the Vulcan Society. You came on the city did not do you justice by a test that you took, you took a test thats not validated. And most of the tests my test probably wasnt even validated. No, it wasnt. Yeah. So all of those tests, like the only tests that were validated was the one that came from the lawsuit. So we all came up. To me, and this is how i say it, and some of the firefighters get mad at me because theyve got so much time on, but technically the ones that came after the lawsuit are really technically really firefighters. [laughter] you know what im saying . Technically came on the right way with that test. We all, you know, came on it and got on, but they came on with the test that was validated, that went through the whole proper channels to say that, yes, youre fit to be a firefighter. Even though we are, weve done the job, and weve proven it, but thats just technically the truth. Yeah. One point, the vulcans dont make this point because, of course, their stated goal was they were advocating for black people to get these jobs, but the biggest benefactors of their work are going to be the white firefighters. Because they by far take the test in the biggest numbers. And when you look at the people who were the most disenfranchised, so to speak, from this test, it was white firefighters because they were coming out in very large groups, and a very small percentage of them were getting on through a test that had no meaning. Right. If you did a good job on that s. A. T. Test on saturday morning, you were a firefighter. And maybe the guys who spoke spanish and had a mom who was from jamaica and had great abilities that he could bring to this job, he got a 92. So no luck. I want to ask one question of the audience before i say good night. How many folks, just raise your hand, are either formerly or currently in the Fire Department, either you and your family and have been affected by what this Vulcan Society has done in terms of their efforts . A lot of tokes. All right. A lot of folks. I was going to ask about how