When i first heard about the book when we think of shaming we think about all of these i dont want to say evil distasteful things that you think about the Scarlet Letter and feathering and you think about religious people who are using the model that is pre democratic. Consumers rather than activists and this guilt that is eclipsing what i would see as an older and more effective tool in part because shame can scale to institutional levels. And exams to have an example i gave in the book, says shabbos would not have been satisfied if the solution to that problem was industry saying, lord we are going to certify part of the immigrant migrant fair wages and allow consumers to purchase them, and they have a label this as picked by farmworkers of her in a minimum wage and allow the rest to continue buying the same old thing. He was not would not have been, i dont think, satisfied with Something Like that because his concern was to change the entire industry, not a small portion of it. This is the way that we have come to engage with so many other problems. And so i think that this focus has inherently shifted the burden to the demand side of the equation rather than the supply side and shame is one of those tools that focuses on supply. Let me open that up a little bit. You go to a progressive supermarket and think you are doing the right thing. You know we know a little bit bit more about how that organic label goods taken or used targets in some cases, but. It still seems that although i am doing this thing and it command it is a step in the right direction, a 1st step that is certainly better than buying maybe the dirtiest to produce but you actually flip that around and say that it is really not a great 1st step. I do not i do not argue that it is not better. There is no doubt that it is better than the other thing, but if thing but if you view it as your primary way of engaging with the issue that winds up being detrimental. There are all these issues with that kind of behavior. You do something bad in another domain which has been demonstrated as a psychological phenomenon across the board. Also, what had happened historically was that this concerned minority make trouble and raise the ire of certain people. The majority was to vote the way. What happened is now it concerns minorities. Now just goes to whole foods. That was not sufficient for changing the entire market. Organic food cart people think it is pretty highly visible. Only accounts for 4 percent of the us food market. It is not leading to a significant decrease in pesticide usage. If that is our end goal because of everyone elses eating nonorganic food then i think we have to consider engaging a higher level. I want to come back to that. You are involved in looking into fisheries. These plants. Yes. The household consumer. I got interested in these tools like wallet cards and eco labels for seafood. This led me i pulled on the thread and the whole scene unraveled for it was not just fisheries. You know the works. And they all have similar properties. And that there was a tendency to lower the standards of what things actually meant because that meant more things to be certified because there was more demand than supply could meet. In the case of fisheries the idea of what is sustainable that bar has just lowered and lowered and lowered. Also, i dont see any of these products representing more than 10 percent of the entire marketplace. So in terms of what kind of big pollution they offer, it is really the jury is still very far from an. You studied economics, you said, for six years. As an undergrad and master student and then i decided to come to my senses and did my phd is a biologist. Am amazed is to speak english so well. But but this all really started when you were a girl you saw video. The canada labeling. I saw photograph. I opened the book with the case of me feeling the most my 1st experience was the guilt that was not just about something i had done that effective those around me but actually affecting something had never met before which is the wild dolphin. I had a photograph of the mail. I had i had written to this group called the Earth Island Institute when i i was nine years old and opened up the return letter. It was all about how to the fishing was killing dolphins and there was this very very, i would say now storing image of it often being hoisted and killed. And that was my 1st very profound love feeling of guilt for something that i have done that had affected something i cared about and had never meant. And i was not alone in that at all. There were so many millions of schoolchildren. And that led to the logo which was one of those i was suggesting one of these red flags about how we engage the issue. The logo was reintroduced we began buying to dragon. I i thought the trouble was over. And that so i realize now the fallacy in thinking that way. I was nine. Fair enough. Some of this he came came to unpack a little bit more later. This was maybe to see those planted. What you end up describing early in the book is how that shift happens and puts the onus on consumers rather than on corporations. The 1st eco label of its type. It had been the organic food label. That signal something about the product itself. This said its the same, but it was caught differently. I earmarked this is a big moment. And i think it does for me really characterize from distracting us from focusing on supply to change into focusing on demand. You give other examples one that stuck out was the israeli day care center. A famous example. Can you unpack that for us. A pretty famous study of daycares in israel or parents were coming to often the daycare said, you know what, were tired of the parents coming so late. We will introduce a fine. And they do that the number of late pickups actually increased significantly because parents thought, zero what a relief tomorrow i have to do is pay a fine. When they had had this guilt or even shame prior the replaced it with a marketbased punishment. In the daycare realizes pretty quickly and tried to change the policy back and never could get the number of late pickups is logan. They actually they actually and there has been more research subsequently showing how markets and the willingness to exchange behavior for money can erode the standard. Some of this has to do with just to dive in on this guilt versus shame me describe it as an individual feeling that is tethered to maybe a subjective bar that we all have insiders. I think that is where shame becomes preferable. Its not as individualistic. I described guilt as a tool there is the emotion and the tool. Is the tool to the threat of social exposure for exposure to public programs. Examples think we talked about guilt in these cases are putting it to the consumer pointing to their guilt and keeping the onus on the collective personal. Very scholarly in parts, but just a very fast read. There are so many examples. What are some of your favorites of this tool of shame. Guilt is a great regulator, and we should all hope the society could be dealt with so well because it is the cheapest form. If it if it does not work and you are left wondering why end of the government is failing you in certain ways enforcing rules or failing to pass legislation then you might turn to harsher forms of punishment. A few examples i like other reinforced action of the sierra club with the mountaintop removal in appellation appalachia trying to work with local government to get it stopped , failing that. Instead and they were not able to go after the Coal Companies so that chased the financing. Services now obviously stuffing mountaintop removal entirely, but it is. In 2,009 they launched the campaign. They took out a fullpage ad demonstrations the changes start sewing and sustainable seafood. The trader joe campaign was obvious as a result of Something Like 19 from the list to 4th most. Did that solve the problem of selling and sustainable seafood . No. How we eventually going to be serious legislation in place . Yes. But it can stopgap in a way that i dont see any evidence of guilt working at that scale. I i want to come back to that because it seems like where we have gone will you started with the consumer looking at labels to suppliers. Eventually we need probably to get to government and cant but i want to throw back something that you said guilt is the cheapest form of this. What does that mean in economic lingo . Punishment from an evolutionary perspective. Sometimes they line up. Punishment is costly. Very interesting. This is in technical punishment and reward are different in the sense that reward is me transferring something great a prize to you. Punishment is like me taking a hit of some form some small cost or you can imagine if it was a physical confrontation, potentially a large cost to than deprive you of something. So we both so we both wind up paying a cost. And we can see this. Punishment and society at the individual and government level are all costly. Prison is a costly system. Economic resources, whatever. Imagine the best form of punishment is where you place yourself. Selfregulating. And that is why there is debate on whether or not guilt is even a universal emotion and tool. A lot of eastern cultures dont have a word a word for it. Shakespeare used the word 33 times, they were shame 344 times. Very likely that it is a much more recent western individualistic concept that shame. We are potentially in subjective territory where i could drink when my guilt and go and hide and it might not lead to better behavior from sco a politician. And the same is true of shame. If any of these things were perfectly would not have harsher forms of punishment. That is always fun. Shaming, as i said before something that something that i have negative connotation toward. There are plenty of examples in the book the potentials for use of shame and new media. At its worst, it, too can too, can lead may be to things are going well the behavior of the norm people hiding from shame appearing your book. Talk about the different kind of results. And is not just of the individual level. Corporations and government all display the similar variation the various ways you can escape shaming. The different responses to shame i open i open up that chapter with the case very charming. The owner of the titanic who happens to be on board denied that the titanic went down. And unlike the captain he did manage to escape and survive. He felt a tremendous amount well, whether or not he felt that we cant say because i dont know what you look like and did not measure his hormones. But he exhibited a lot of fines of having been to have a lot of signs of having been changed because one of the 1st things he did is inverted his name. Rather than finding is may you find his name yams he. And Joseph Conrad you attended some of the hearings about the titanic referred to him. And changing your name command he was in hiding hiding, he would not come out and face anyone. These are two signs that the shaming is really powerful and you may or not may or may not be getting the ideal outcome. And literary terms the intense shame that we are talking about is equated with your social persona dying. It is intense. He was removing himself from the things that he loved. He said that he was not going out in public. Changing his identity. You also see Philip Morris preferring to be told all three or bp considering changing his name after the deepwater horizon blackwater you can see the similar tendencies among groups. Government them as much harder to change. It still does happen. Change parties. Or change the name of a technique like, you know, torture becomes enhanced interrogation technique. Right. So online examples appear. I appear. I dont know if you read the knew jon ronson book with the example of jesting but there are a lot of examples of shaming going awry with the media. Maybe it is not always pleasant command you draw the line between the kind of shaming that change is bad behavior without burning life on the other hand which seems to be have is that part of what you describe . Yes. Yes. Very much like antibiotics depending upon the dose and the time command you can overdo it and under do it one of the issues with the internet generally and again this comes back to individuals and individual behavior, but it is right now what we see as disproportionate punishment. Punishment. Individuals saying something glib are being punished in a much harsher much more longlasting form that people commit actual physical crime. And this is a strange moment that i dont think will last much longer. Part of the disproportionate aspect is because there is so much anonymity online and because it has so far been a sort of wild west and were seeing all of that range at the moment. I would be remiss if i did not proudly mention your example of rosa parks. Well, just a great line in the book which i included about how the purpose of the monterey bus boycott was to shame and open up the feeling of shame and the oppressors. I think this is more interesting is a a form of shame. Attacking in individual relentlessly. John stewart and colbert there are hugely popular. I think he has said the idea that stewart was listed as the most popular news anchor. Most trusted. Most trusted. Of course. Oreilly is the most popular. Say what you think. Apologies. Is not as confrontational because of the laughter, is that the idea . It is definitely not as confrontational. You you see this as the 1st form of punishment in hunter gatherer societies, ridicule, just because that is just the lowest cheapest, sort of least harsh form of punishment that there is. And yet in some ways i think he is just so clever. Again not just for the ridicule but for pivoting our attention and refocusing it on bigger systems issues taking the Brian Williams case and pivoting it more about weapons of mass distraction in iraq and the veracity of that argument. Drifting it getting it back up to the government. The government or two if the media is so interested in the truth where were they then . You also talk about gossip and how another cheap form. Another cheap forum, yes. This is related to john stewart and Stephen Colbert air because a lot of gossip is a more primitive way of badmouthing people which is our punishing them for things that we dont like about them which is sort of a roundabout way of showing them. You can have a cynical view of humanity was you look at some of the data and say, well, two thirds of what we do when we talk is gossip about other people. About 90 percent of that is negative at least in certain studies. Studies. I mean, commit would be interesting to look at subcultures. But when you think deeply about that, that, i think that it makes sense in the sense that think about your relationship or think about, you often dont talk about the really great things. You talk talk about the bad things in hopes of improving the and also if you think about society at large people that are doing a good job well we should certainly upon them and not the things that concern us most. Fundamental aspect. Delinquent taxpayers, the 20 states that shame going on taxpayers online. Why do we have to expose the people that dont do it . Should we expose the people that pay their taxes . You know, this is an absurd idea. 90 percent of people do pay taxes. Positive reinforcement. As a parent maybe positive reinforcement is buzz best to be preferable to negative punishment, but in Group Situations it is not fair out in the studies are looking at. It is absolutely true that positive reinforcement is a better tool and certainly for parenting we need a certain amount of people to cooperate not to say who are the people that matter to us most, but the interested people are running for everyone else. Most of us would try to write a a book about shame and look at it through literature and through maybe some books on economics and things. One of the interesting things a lot of experiments on punishment in the lab are used monetary funds of punishment. Lets have it be reputational. Play these games, cooperative games and that students can earn real money we will tell them the two least cooperative out of the six. It creates capitalism, money can order and trade just about reputation committed into something that is fundamentally human. And increasing cooperation. Do you do this at nyu . I was at ubc. You have students. They come to the lab and have the choice to give in to not give over the course of ten rounds. We get 10 at the start of the game. They can give 1 out of each round. And whatever is given to the public it is doubled and redistributed evenly among all players. There is an incentive to a Group Project at school. You need some people doing some work. Some people do give, some people dont. Low levels of cooperation. And this is what we saw. The threat of exposing at the end of the game the two least of the two most did increase. That was the main one. What other types of, if they could know the identity of certain players, who they want to know. Overwhelmingly overwhelmingly people want to know the least cooperative player. Something that i talk about in the book really fascinating in terms of animals that have highly social lives wind up showing a lot of the same behaviors and manipulation. The one that comes to mind of the sparrows. Yes sparrows are you an example. The power of deception but what is interesting i could explain the experiment in full of what it really got at is even sparrows little birds use ostracism. Individuals that they felt were trying to deceive the fly. I do know Something Like that. There was one of the chapters in the book. Its a highly effective shaming. It can be used for anything. This is the whole power that we were talking about but it really could. In other words, shame itself has a Bad Reputation which can be a neutral tool for good or ill. The importance of the habits. The importance of the habits. The audience is so much a part of the tool. Our attention is finite. We are being asked to be a part of the audience for some sort of technique. Where should you focus your shaming or attention on somebody else doing the shaming the 1st is that the audience should be fundamentally concerned with the transgression. Aside nap that is very popular you can expose places for doing the wrong thing. The restaurant is of course. They do respond to these sites. The misuse of the audiences attention for things like this. It only affected this one person. Exactly. Between them in the thai company. We all get Better Service in this regard. We wind up losing the power of shame for another activity that did affect all of us. I get example of attribute one is an app that tells all of your friends. I i just dont, im not convinced thats very effective. Here at the victims of the transgression. Exactly. Somebody who would be. Somebody went straight to your boss. This would be a better tool. But i think that gets exactly to my. Whatever is asking to be a part of the audience they should in some ways be a victim or fundamentally concerned about transgression. That is my you have the most important and social command shaming is an important tool. The more i i get that fundamental question the more effective it will be. I was thinking about how you said the body or person being shamed us to as to care about the audience that is participating in the shaming. I thought of something that somebody once said to me about the us sanctions against burma that it works better. That regime considers itself more part of the European American community. It was slowly worked its way toward possibly working, but some of the reason it didnt is that hardliners did not care. It gets back to my trader joes example. Other retailers alone on that list. They have a hard time. As consumers and managers are less aligned with the greenpeace agenda. It had that mismatch but in the people trying to do the shaming and the people who were asked to be a part of the audience. I feel like you are an expert on that the moment that we could benefit from commencing click a lot of those right us right now even how afraid we should be of terrorism with which affects relatively few people. The big impetus between this book is Climate Change which could conceivably escalate and do so very rapidly into affecting and even killing a lot more people than terrorism has. The agenda behind this book another negative word, the impetus, the heart of this work is Climate Change. Is that true . It is one of many. Climate change and overfishing are my two big research agendas. I would also say Something Like welfare and labor rights and those are all part and parcel. You want this to be out there for potential fellow activists . I i could have written the exact same boat control on gun sales. I chose examples that fit my agenda. If your constituency on one children, certainly abortion is your key issue. This is one of the subtle messages. Terrorism versus Climate Change issue. Who do we consider part of the group when we say social it disproportionally affects were countries, poor people generally can also certain animals brain calcify organisms. This is a a group that i would consider myself closely aligned with. You mentioned earlier a passing a passing example of how the american system of slavery showed how the laws often need to do a lot of work to catch up with morality always you call the norms. It seems to me like one of the big emotional impetus behind this book is that there is not a lot of accountability whether it is the environment, we did not sign the kyoto protocol. A lot of terrible things happening by omission. Maybe the impetus behind this book is you are dealing with corruption by omission and you need to change the norms and get the last to how. Seems like that when it comes to shame you are put off by the word. When you get to the end you are like, we really need this. You think about the democratic Justice System which i happen to be a big fan of. Due process is something that i think we are all thankful for. If you think about the deprivation, this evolutionary perspective wife only in the hands of the state, only the state can deprive someone of life, a lot of states cant even do that. Liberty, that is a new thing. Prison actually prison actually is relatively knew on the whole scene of punishment compared to the others. Physical safety so that we can break someones are. Again, not available for you and me. Two thirds of americans reported that they have experienced the silent treatment at sometime in the some time in the last year by you are denying someone language. And then reputation. What is interesting to me is only resources and. And and those two things are also only available to us at the International Level because there is no democratic Justice System. System. There is no binding treaty yet internationally for climate. And so what we have what do we really have so that we can deny people or institutions are governments of the dont behave how we decide and want them to. In a way such shaming is •ellipsis is a fairly is. Sparing to keep it a powerful tool. You can lose. Lose. They can be like a little. So you have to has to match. And just an example of a 2,004 there was a decision, Amnesty International and several other human Rights Groups would go after the Concerted Campaign being one of seven countries in the world so executing juvenile offenders since 1990. Yemen nigeria iran, iraq. The use the map of the world to demonstrate this. There were other things as well that decision in 2,005 and the question was what other tool could have been used . Again, there is no prison. We could not but america in jail, kill america. Maybe this would happen on a longer time scale. The reputation as one of the things that we can use against an entire country and an entire system. Any questions . We have someone going to the microphone now. You can turn it down a little little. To make the social changes and in particular he has reputation and how people take it personally and how they address their behavior to match the reputation thats really remarkable but i was thinking like havent we been exposed to exactly these kind of tools for the opposite because it is very powerful shaming and in particular it is very clear of what is the brand that you should buy and they use that social pressure if it has an oldfashioned last season whatever then you take it wherever the reputation would be exposed. So we use it for the companies and the tools and how do you bring it to the causes that interest you so how would you do it talking about the organizations that have nonprofit how could one do with more individually. Its to hopefully have a wave. A. Is it possible to you as an individual i know that wasnt the whole question but that was compelling. The point of the book is you need an audience. A. I have seen a lot of individual uses of shame in my day but i and it works, sure it can work and it has all but those characteristics. The way that i would say advertising is different is that i define it as behavior that is not uniform to shame people for i dont know Something Like a good example where that behavior is uninteresting in a way. I will think of a good example but shame is the way that i defined as exposing a minority exiting the worst behavior. What jamie is doing is competing for our attention so that is my definition so that is different than a bird very added. Hes much further down the road in the social system that is great class a store consumerbased. I thought how it goes into other motions when you get into the examples. We have some potentially choice to have compassion. But the shame in the shaming the book is against many other emotions. They make you feel sort of less about your self. They are tapping into these things so i wouldnt define it specifically as shaming and i see your point. We are at a crossroads for creating some really big new imported standards of behavior and i dont think we are going to get there without Something Like shaming involved. A. I see we have another question. The comment i have is in freakonomics they talk about moral so in the social realm they choose to suggest that its more effective versus creating financial incentives like the day care center. The question as regards to the shame is whos qualified either as an individual entity to bring about the shaming of the other party and who is authorized or qualified. We heard a little bit about it as long as we are all participants but you can quickly get the easiest way is to say you are not part of the society. The example would be the recent things you hear about akers going after customer privacy of the whole irony is both the consumer becoming aware of something about themselves and government institutions losing a reputation and then feeling fuzzy about this notion and what they can do to infiltrate but have to expose to show the shame and take one problem to a second problem so if you can comment about the regimes end is that the right example of shame . It is interesting and anonymous being the most visible groups. I went to a great talk about them. It can be a strong against the weak and when we tend to be sympathetic as when its is when its the weak against the strong. We are less cool with the government ban on anonymous for some reason i was at the major breach of security that makes us all uncomfortable. So that is already an interesting dynamic at the end which makes it more acceptable rather than effective. In terms of the structure more generally i think it worries us for the same reason and shaming worries us because it is the lack of due process in the system that we have all sorts gotten used to it make sense feel like we are back in the wild west days experiencing some vigilantism and your neighbors could come into your house and enforce their own rules and a lot of us are hesitant to return to a system like that. On the other hand there is the counter argument that the other side has gotten too strong so there are reasons to expose them for that. I just will say that i am a fan of the democratic Justice System and its one of those things that doesnt seem to matter as much until it happens to you and then you are left wondering. So in other words they share those two properties very much and make us all a little nervous. I think there is another question. Thank you for the interesting talk that youve been getting. My interest in the subject is a particular one which the people who support the palestinians are using shaming effectively or as effectively as they could against the israelis. Rather than going to the subject that is fraught with controversy, i think of south africa and whether shame was used effectively in south africa and whether you suggested nobody is shameless but i wonder if for example putin could be shamed into changing his behavior in ukraine. So generally how it permeated, but how is it used again to the governments but you dont agree with . Those are Big Questions for someone more qualified on the political spectrum than i am. The only thing i will say is that most of the time if you have somebody with power, there is an audience they care about somewhere so there is an example in the book about russian ceos and how they dont respond to negative press in russian newspapers but they do respond to negative press in the wall street journal and how did have been noted to resign in the face of scrutiny which is interesting that the audience that matters to them is not the end group per se. So there are these strange anomalies and i think what you worry about for me at least at the global scale are the countries that appear to not want to be part of the group at all. And that just makes us all feel a little bit on edge like what can we do to bring these countries and should they get powerful weapons were terrorists or whatever, and north korea i also mentioned this in the book because they tend to be one of those countries and then they joined the world cup in 2012 because the greed to be part of the group for that they wound up getting all of this scrutiny and backlash during the world cup but apparently they decided not to be part of the world cup again. So this is the question. How do we balance and to me they are such fascinating questions because its not about individuals ecology, its about the scaled features scale of features and to do we treat north korea unlikely word be ostracized kid on the playground during its not clear to me these are the perfect metaphors. So i think it will be interesting challenge but one thing is for certain that we are moving towards a globalized structure in which we all are interconnected and a few as a tighter global group and this is inevitably going to mean some standards butting up against one another to figure out who wins and how. You responded to that question by pointing out people with a political background and economic background, but you have some examples like kenneth ross from the human rights watch. Doesnt it say that he admits that one of his greatest tools is shaming these regimes that fail on human rights records . But he did have better luck with the United States and yemen. So they have to feel like they are Perfect Community that is shaming them. There is a legal scholar that says the ultra rich and poor are against shaming again talking about individuals because one has the power of wealth and the other has nothing to lose. And so this is also true even at the global scale you have to have something to lose for it to matter. Did you want to shout your question from your seat backs okay i will repeat it. Did everyone hear that . Hispanic they are exposing the transgression especially with some of the techniques like video. And what i am saying immediately goes to the animal works because ofof overthecounter legislation that has been proposed recently. But maybe you have other cases in mind. I kind of define it as anyone exposing a transgression to the public disapproval and anyone in a position in the whistleblowing one of them ways to make it more public list to present a whole bunch of irrefutable evidence, and that makes the information hard. Because one of the accounting strategies is to say this the source of the shaming has no credibility, but if the facts are so prevailing in the face of that attack it may not matter that the reputation has been destroyed, and that has happened over and over again on the scene. You mentioned snowden once in the book and you mentioned wikileaks and counter strategies. The counter strategy that he focused on is the striking. One is fighting and the other is destroying the reputation of the messenger and that was the case with snowden and julian assange. Its the result of earlier generations realizing the trial and error that we sometimes have a situation where the powerful cant be confronted with their own transgressions of the project the whistleblowers and it becomes very pretentious to unravel khan and you get into that in the buck. I see one now that you dont have to get that everyone is going to shout out to their question. Lets look at the time to make sure we have time for the signing. Lets do can we do three questions . Maybe if we do them all. I saw that and the first in the back. [inaudible] unless you wanted to hear all of the questions at once we saw another handover here. I was just wondering how if i were in this position was what i have done. So im curious by shamans of guilt. I think i saw that hand [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] is there someone [inaudible] [laughter] i will start with the last one first. I will start with that one then. Weve written about this and others. It can be assuaged by decisions to buy certain things over others. That is the point in my main argument and there are others including the norm about the individuals in the group and being much more individualistic than shame and that fits in nicely in the freedom to choose and it is just a perfect storm. When you tend to look at the supply and demand and the last environmental legislation being in the 70s, it feels like i was born in 1980 and i consider that to be the moment but there are other scholars that would argue that it was happening sooner. As for the kind of work that i do i do theoretical work on shaming and so its not its just the premise is just cooperation and it has to do with money. The decisions are about the behavioral economics and how to make decisions in the lab. I tend to like groups that must embed with corporations because i tend to see them more on behalf of civil societies. I end up doing this research is interesting thatwasinteresting that the names that kept popping up. They are not beholden to bp who might be on the board of directors for the thing. So that tended to be the kind of group that i was looking up to. People would have a different answer to that question, so thats my own. As for how the u. S. Democracy is failing whether or not to shame can serve us when the corporations have so much interest when you look in terms of Climate Change with the work showing this isnt being represented and the decisions are not democratic decisions and the minority is making the decision against the democratic will. But i still see reputation as being one of the most important tools in that battle. I dont see how to get around it. What else we plan to attack and just this week they sent this whole email about how you could tweet or send an email to the number i think there were 15 in congress and they were using that social pressure, so i still see it as being fundamentally even to the democratic process even though it does lack some of those issues like due process. This is the speed of memory round. V. Titanic owner i should be clear [inaudible] but i can say and this is what im interested in experimentally as do people change their behavior in the face of public exposure or the threat of public exposure, and what it seems is that his behavior fundamentally changed after the titanic went down. Not only in those few days but for life in general he went out and stayed alone in ireland and so i say that he was shamed in how he reconciled to that in his own mind we will never know because he didnt write about it. I think its a really again, whether or not you want to call that guilt or shame in turn only, i am not sure that it matters especially because things like survivor guilt in general sometimes manifest in the same exact ways that we say shamed us. And finally, i am not very familiar with the cases you mentioned so im sure you have more towouldhave more to say than i would. I have an alert and i try to read them every day that there is more than you could ever consume. That last part was very fun to watch rolling those questions back. We are going to end it there and have a signing and i want to thank you for coming to the Public Library lets unit for our guest. Aalso. Thanks for your attention. I would suggest going up that way to make getting in line and then coming back down to get it signed. Thanks again. [inaudible conversations] the big idea of barack obama was going to get rid of the polarization and change the politics sort of take us out of this red and blue we are as red and blue as we have ever been before. It didnt he wasnt able to do that. There is an argument to say circumstances didnt allow it. This is in the presidency he thought he was going to have read september 15 20 of 8 qaeda presidency he thought he was going to do and what he became at least in the First Six Months and as rahm emanuel will argue saying this was thrust upon him, this was no time to change washington we have had to save the American Economy that is all well and good to great promise was that, so that is some people say i harp on it too much but that to me is the hope and change. That was the turn the page that was the whole idea so in that score i think that hes failed. As a commanderinchief and somebody that implemented the economic recovery which i think over time is going to look better and better from him come healthcare is a total does it ever get fully implemented . That is still an open question. Ultimately it will be judged on healthhealthcare more than anything else because it consumed the presidency. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. And even from the museum of finance on the origin of the boardgame monopoly. The author of the monopolist refutes the commonly held history promoted by the manufacturer Parker Brothers that an unemployed salesman sold the idea to the company in 1935. So the plan is i will talk about the history of the game and then open up to questions and answers that way i am not just yammering and you can get information on things you will find useful so this is the cover of the book. So, as we know today most people are familiar with the hotels, mr. Monopoly to again it is n