But im looking forward to doing a bit more research on it. Host kwasi kwarteng, thank you for this wonderful book and thank you very much for being on after words. Guest thank you. That was after words, booktvs Signature Program which offers a place nonfiction books are indeed my journals, public policymakers, legislators and other smart with their me too. After words airs every weekend on booktv at 10 p. M. On saturday, 12 and 9 p. M. On sunday, and 12 a. M. On monday. You can also watch after words online. Go to booktv. Org and click on after words in the booktv series and topics list on the upper right side of the page. Booktv sat down with former secretary of state Hillary Clinton in little rock to discuss her new book hard choices. Getting to the point where you can make peace is never easy because you dont make peace with your friends. You make it with people who are your adversaries, who have killed those you care about, your own people or those who you are trying to protect, and its a psychological drama. You have to get into the head of those on the other side. Because you have to change their calculation enough to get them to the table. I talk about what we did in iran. Rid of a lot of economic pressure to try to get into the table. And we will see what happens but that has to be the first step. And i write about what we did in afghanistan and pakistan, trying to get the taliban to the table for a comprehensive discussion. In iraq today, i think what we have to understand is that it is primarily a political problem that has to be addressed. The ascension of the sunni extremist, the so called isis group, is taking advantage of the breakdown in political dialogue and the total lack of trust between the maliki government, the sunni leaders maliki government. More with Hillary Clinton saturday at 7 p. M. Eastern and sunday morning at 9 15 a. M. On cspan2s booktv. Booktv sat down with Arthur John Johnson to discuss herex experiences as administrator ofr the General Servicesadmi administration in the aftermath of her leaving the obamanier admi administrationni in the wake of the gsas las vegas conferencevi schedule. This is about half an hour. Joining us now on booktv on cspan2 is martha johnson. Johnt are you done for a living . I have done a lot of different things. About twothirds of my great has been in the corporate world. Ive been in business large and small, automotive, architecture, consulting. And about a third of my great has been in the public sector, a Public Service side. I worked all the years for president clinton in that administration and ive a couple years serving president obama. So its been a little bit of everything and it has given me i think and real understanding of the large and small organizations and their cultures and their effectiveness and performance. What was your last job at the federal government . Was asked the ministry of the General Services administration, which is a massive Infrastructure Organization about 90 billion, and in scope and size, and we handled real estate, i. T. Travels, charge cards, supplies for the government across the whole government, executive, judiciary, legislative branches as well as date, local relief work, tribal. So it is the epicenter of a lot of government performances and was the besb in in a sense, sort of the back office of it is. We serve the government and our goal is to help government perform better. And we were enabling that in a number of different ways but innovation of products and services. When did you leave . I left two years ago when i resigned. I resigned in the face of the secretarygeneral report about a conference in las vegas, which is what everybody remembered. And it was a congress that has some various indiscretions and poorly executed contracts, excessive travel. And it became a flashpoint, and that the it was quite a political flashpoint. In the wake of the report i resigned spent it was an electionyear . It was very much the beginning of an election year. The storyline at the time was to be sure that the president clearly understood how to run the government and i was managing one of the largest organizations around government performance. When you say you reside, do you mean you resigned . I lost the support of the white house and i chose to resign. There was a number of meetings that i had at the white house by which theyre trying to understand what had happened, whawith the scale and scope of e ones. And as we continue to have those discussions, i got to the point where it was obvious that the white house had withdrawn its support. You know, you dont have to be a Rocket Scientist to know when your boss has moved his support. You pretty much figure it out. Your new book that we want to show on the air, on my watch leadership, innovation, and personal resilience, you kind of detail that last day in office at the gsa. What was that like . The last day was personally a very sad day. I was in mourning for most of the day i can show that because my resignation was very sudden in the afternoon. And i was concluding things and signing some letters and orders, but when i resigned from the senior staff, it came very suddenly. And i simply said to them that i had chosen to resign, and i sent a letter to the president and i left the room. I turned the meeting over and i left the room and went downstairs, got in my car and drove home. By the time i got from my email was about blowing up with all sorts of people extend themselves to me in just a wonderful way. It was a day of both loss and a sudden network of support. It was a story on wanted to tell about how, in the buzz saw of washington politics, there is a human story behind that. And its a terrific story, career stronger personal story of lessons learned. What would you have done differently with regard to the gsa Conference Quick first of all, did you know anything about it . It was planned for at least a year before i actually came in office. So that was one piece of it. We knew of it because my deputy had requested an investigation of the because she had heard a story, something something about the conference, we need to find out more. And that investigation went for 15 months. We were unaware of that because we had requested the investigation, and we were waiting for it to come out, forward so we can decide how to respond. And i think thats a little bit of the dilemma, the due process of an investigation. You need to wait so you dont act precipitously. So there were those kinds of due process in opposition so that finally when it came out, you know, i need pieces of it and you something about it before the formal report was delivered to me about a month before i resigned. Did you in that month do anything with that report . Oh, yes. We were running through, first our own review and Inspector General can come into a bunch of things and support for us to validate it, understand those things. So i had a war room set up and weve gone about instigating some discipline action around some of the people that by the can is about due process and things dont happen like that. Part of it think what happened was the storm of politics were insisting on more action and calling for a head to grow even as the process was unfolding. That was the political buzz saw once the media got hold of it. As the head of gsa, do you agree with the fact that you should have resigned . That is one of those questions that will haunt me forever. I did sit in front of the congress that i will mourn the rest of my life the loss of his job. It was a fabulous opportunity. We were doing wonderful things, and importantly, i do not resign because of all the innovative work we were doing. It was not because were taking risk trying new ways of helping the government perform better. It was another issue that brought this to the front. So importantly i want to say you should not succumb to risk, the risk of innovation is aborted and is not something leaders should be afraid of or worried about. They need to take doctor and risks and move. Were doing that and that is not what i resigned. I believe the white house in its various calculus, which i wasnt particularly privy to, felt, i mean who knows what all that was all about after all that, but they simply did not want to continue their support and that was something i heard loud and clear. How did you do that . I was in a meeting with jack lew, the chief of staff, and he basically was expressing the president s concerns. And there will concern is that the government is going to operating well, the people that set the rules need to set a flat standard. And it was inside that that i could hear what was being basically requested. Did you ever meet the president or hear from the president throughout this . No, i did not. It was largest handled by staff but it was all handled by staff. I deducted from the president. Do you think that is appropriate . I dont know whats appropriate. In many ways part of my story is that im not a political animal. Im an executive management person and i could take a hat off to the Obama Administration for inviting me to play a serious role in the performance and management of government, not policy, not programs, but in how it worked. And thats where my expertise is, and thats where perhaps, well, thats what i do, the policy, the campaigns and the grace issues around whos on first in washington. I was able to avoid a lot of that. I ran into a buzz saw. Do you think thats kind of a negative, not understanding optics necessary of politics because oh, i think that i very, very outputted staff it understood the optics. I think we were all taken for surprise. I dont know that this is one that could have been completely foreseen. Because relative to other scandals and the size of the workstation, this is something that the process should have taken care of. So thats part of it. I think was maybe a little overblown. I believe that had i stayed in office we couldve done some great things that wouldve been a huge benefit, and we lost that chance. Martha johnson, as youve been watching the Eric Shinseki of their play out, his resign now from his position, whats been your thoughts . Well, a couple of thoughts. The first is i think Eric Shinseki is one of the great Public Servants ive worked with him a little bit, observed him and he is a very delivered and quiet style. And he is to be respected. I mean, i hold him as one of those, one of the people i wanted to emulate. I will say that the management analysis, i think we have fallen in love with the measure so much so that we have forgotten that there are whole systems around those measures that need to come into play. And a one dimensional Management Team will measure you in a lagging indicator without sufficient resources, is not the type of incentive that works. And with the overwhelming pressure to create measures and numerous everything, i think we are signaling to the bureaucracy that thats the dimension we want and thats the dimension and its a gotcha dimension but i think theres a lot that serious management systemic structural changes that need to go on to balance out measures in the whole performance of government progress effort. So i really feel that thats the heart of what this is about, using measures in this manipulating, manipulating measures holding up one or two measures as somehow the be all and end all of whats going on. I think its regrettable and very unfortunate. Washington gotcha media feeding frenzy. Well, i felt it the most when i was in front of congress. I mean, i turned off the television. My son watched the john stewart stuff. I didnt follow any of that but i did feel it when i was in front of congress. The way i felt it in fact i had a friend, a media person advice before had my congressional hearings and the striking thing to me she said, when you are exchanging, you know, comments with the congressman, do not look that congressman in the eye. Do not. Look at the nameplate. You do not wanto eng t do not look that congressmen in the hide. Do not. Look at the nameplate. You do not want to engage them because this is not cursed well. This is about them talking to the cameras and they are doing something for different page and you are sitting there and it has to be orchestrated that you dont get caught in on this very hoopla about this. And there were cameras across the front click and every time i blinked. So i felt the intent of the other i appreciated his eyes that was remember, this is more about the system of government, not you personally. When you are in that credit situation, it is good to remember that. But at the same time, when you have someone on a dais pointing i. Q. In the painting about you, looking you in the eye . Well, ill tell you, one of the things that could take me to think about it and try to revolve you know, being any kind of setting like that is its own experience. Martha johnson from the something to talk about in on my watch, the first month after you left, what was it like . Well, it was full of surprises. That was one thing people should know when they crash into a wall is the other while it has a lot of surprises. You can capture a lot of positive energy. My surprises where i was sitting at at home, look at the dust on the furniture is not sure what my life is going to be like. But suddenly i got to have lunch with my house. I didnt have to get dressed in a suit everyday. I got to say to myself again, theres a whole life up there. What do i want to do . For me, part of what i stepped into with my Creative Work and i finished my novel. So the first month was sort of place had changed and i could then they know, want to create something and i have been working on a novel going back and forth to washington. I was able to finish that an unlisted. That is the kind of surprised they think you can introduce after a crisis like this, but you should take advantage of. Its also the balance in the energy in the opportunity ascent they knew. Was their depression . I dont know if there was depression as much as morning. Maybe that is depression. I dont wait to be clinical about it. But i still mourn the loss of that job. I always will. It was such an opportunity and i was raised at the generation that was to change the world and i had an opportunity to change government. We launched a number of things than of things and i felt as if i hadnt finished my work. That i will continue to mourn. Its a little bit of sadness, but not what dominates who i am. I have other ways i can contribute and i believe in work. I am finding other of to do. Were you concerned to knock Ottawa Senators circles in tennessee since he resigned . Well, my experience was that i have a rather Large Network i discovered and it broke into three categories. The first category is what i call the banana bread per day and they all showed up at the banana bread in the wine of flowers and invitations to dinner and so on and it is a huge support and it was big. The second was a group of people who are really angry for me. They were angry at the system. They were angry about what it happened than they had to call and tell me about that. But it allowed me to let go of my own maker in the u. K. Have for me. I gave me a little bit of space. The third day that i recognized was a small group of people who are washingtonians. They communicated to me by email and that get a grip. Thats washington. Everybody knows that this is about. You will be fine. I found that wasnt quite nothing i could totally understand at the moment. But i completely embrace back now. I am fine. I am fine if the systems will housework to do, but first and only i felt as if i had huge lesson in a lot of energy to keep on working. Martha john, did you have any flashbacks when Jill Abramson was fired quite you know, top female executives leaving. Was there any comparison . I assert my watch these high profiles tories. Its interesting to me that was such an amazingly that was a story that created a lot of buzz. Everybody wanted to explore that in the gender conversation about that has been significant about style, workstyle. I have found that those conversations are incredibly important and i do think theres a real issue about the standard that senior women are set to in terms of how they can share with the guys from all about. We are getting better, but we have a lot of conversation to have. I do say that it does open up a workplace in the New York Times and other media and assertive roughandtumble. They use the word rest. I am of the mind that a leader needs to be very careful about style. Man or woman is you are the one in power. If you are the one empowering use a particular style that is negative, it will roll down the organization and they will stuff it and you will never begin to get back to them. They might learn a and be capable, but the culture will be one defensive ascent to your and i am not a mind that a leader style is important to culture as anything. So i think about that with her story come should thank you story and others about what style and messages they send through the organization. Thats where i got without the culture or performance of an organization rather than the politics of it. What is your novel about . Event by novel, thank you for asking. Its not about murder in the potomac, nor is it about snakes in the jury. It is a story about a gay boy in Southern Indiana and his comingofage in his got a parallel story of the korean war coming other son of the same community who was also his doctor and was murdered in a hate crime. The onestory unlocks the other end is kept completely under wraps. Its a very special book and it really was able to go to a different place to finish writing that innocent lovers eat. Where did the concept come from . Became a group of that do this in the 90s who work there and about gay ordination in the present church and they just exposed me to a lot of writing on a lot of issues about this. I ran into a slightly similar story and said that the novel and i picked it up and ran with it. You are very active in the Presbyterian Church click iem, i am. My grandparents were all clergy, so that is a part of my story. I do think that there is something and leadership that is something about ministry. Its about taking care of an organization and ministering to its human needs as well as its performance needs. So i do blend of strength. Martha johnson, which had to give credit to the Washington Post to profile you in your book, on my watch leadership, innovation, personal resilience. We hear a booktv had heard about this before the Washington Post profile of you. What difference did that article made quite well, first of all, it was enormously gratifying for the Washington Post to call me up in me would you be interested in the subject of a feature quite as two years after all this had happened. For five months after the book had come out. I was touched. I was moved in is very interested in the fact they wanted to do it is a human story, not just a political or kiss and tell story. That was what particularly was gratifying about it. Since then, ive had people like cspan and the tv and call me about coming on the show in its game its given me a little more publicity. But interestingly im getting calls from people in government who are wanting to talk about the issues i was working on or what i went through and say could you perhaps come in and talk with me because i think where the middle of kind of a political firestorm and how do i think about this as a leader . That is incredibly gratifying. I also have gotten more connections with the universities and colleges do not assume rewarding because they miss my young staff. I want to not just talk to my cohort. Id like to be sure that some of the ideas in context i gain for the six your system and i can share with younger people as they shape their careers. Is this a Business Administration bo . It is a management book for large organizations. The first chapter is leading in the dark and that obtains whether in government director red cross or the other. Big organization, thats a generic issue. The Second Chapter is leading to scale as with larger global organizations. How do you do this . The third is the government is leading under oath. I have a lot of material in there about leadership generic to any organization. In your book, on my watch, you ask these questions. Could i have prevented it, las vegas, from happening . Could i have changed the outcome . There a couple of things about being a leader and one is unique to go back and assess the happen, understand what happened. But he have to be careful not to live in a word, codec, shed a environment and beat yourself up. I fully believe i was 120 of the job and working incredibly hard doing everything i could. So i am not in a position or i will anyway turn on start flagellating myself about it. Its important for leaders to assess, on her stand, sort them without and not take on any shape. That is not helpful. You know, i am not a bad person. Gsa is not a bad organization. There were mistakes and that needed to be fixed. I think there is a way in which leaders need to help organizations because they are human and you are leading people. They are not all going to be six sigma perfect. And how are you going to handle and extract lessons from mistakes that are made and not upon . And of course i didnt get to move on, but thats how i think about it now. What was your reaction . A lot of press reaction to the thought that those at the streeters involved in the conference was given a bonus and retain what you lost your job . Well, the due process of government is in a larger context to be respected. We should not have political browbeating of career civil servant. That is what the merit system is meant to protect in the way the due process shakes out his inane visual situation, there are ways in which it doesnt quite look totally right or alexa littles rui. Underneath it all, the attention they are was between the expectations of the mayor process to give people the time they needed to appeal, allow them to retire if they could. All the things on the table in the setting against the demands by the public rightfully for immediate measurement and respond and performance. Those two things are always in attention. I have to say i look at it in that way. Who is the only time i had that dilemma. How do you have a Big Organization like gsa to move faster when you have due process . We are a system of rules, a system of protection as well as performance. You can jam into each other at times. Its a great dilemma. Martha johnson, what is your next book click i would like to do another novel and am also working on a book of what its like organizations and leaders after trauma, after something happens to the organization and what they learned on the other side, how do you grow from the experience this . Hopefully well hear from the a lot. What is debian core press click debut core prices my wonderful publishers and the people who held my hand and walked me through a book, which i will note, is not too big headed sure. You can read it quickly and gain a lot of intent lessons, but it does not require 800 pages and 20 pounds any of these washington policy bookseller. Martha johnson, on my watch leadership, innovation, personal resilience. 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