Mary was always at home. Married was helping her mother. And then when mary got married, elizabeth was not, well, for a while when the parents were all right, elizabeth left and live with john and abigail, but when the parents got sick which was quite sync up and then she had to be home taking care of them. And the grandmother was gone by then. [inaudible] going to believe this but best time to start to set a new example for the youth to follow speak with all, what time in life . Yes. Thats interesting. You mean what time in childhood . I would say childhood. I think all the different stages matter. I mean, with my knowledge of children, and you make one impact before they are six or 10 or whatever, and then when theyre in adolescents they think we have forgotten everything and later on you were surprised that they seem to remember some. I think they did the best that they could as parents. I think they were strong parents, and some of them turned out well and some of them didnt. And so much had to do with a lot and with the era with luck. [applause] thank you. Thank you so much for coming. That was diane jacobs on booktv. For more information visit the authors website, dianejacobsauthor. Com. Spend next on tv, Pulitzer Prizewinning historian David Brion Davis completes his three volume history of slavery in the west. In the final volume published 30 years after the second installment, the author focuses on emancipation from the importance of the haitian revolution, to the American Civil War and its aftermath. This is about one hour. Welcome. Im mark weitzman, and im half of the center, and new york office of like to welcome you all here for i think what is a moment is in many ways landmark event for us, and evening honoring the launch of a very good new book. A couple of dollars was an brief introduction and then we will start the program can turn the program over to the speakers were up there. Like to begin by giving my thanks to my colleague and friend who was the person who arranged for this event that brought dr. Davis and the such together. We all herald a great deal. I want to thank michelle summers from the publishers, as well as leslie from the Gilder Lehrman institute for their help and cooperation and arranging this evening. I also would like to very much welcome and recognize members of the board of trustees who have taken the time to cover this evening as well. Thank you for that. A few brief words of introduction from my part. One of the reasons that i was so glad id jump at this opportunity was because the work of professor davis been such a great deal to us. Personally my own work has drawn upon and benefit from some of professor davis writings, years ago when i was researching and comparing antisemitism and anticatholicism online. To get a sense of the breadth of professor davis work, that didnt even for slavery which is what we here to talk about tonight, and yet was landmark in its own right on those areas as well. And we are greatly indebted to professor davidson scourge in confronting antisemitism, particularly again a few decades ago when it was a ton of great controversy and great tension, yet he stood up and very forthright to condemn what need to be condemned and did it in a scholarly and dispassionate manner that left a great impression. In many ways it is a natural fit for a suitable to host this event. The center is named after survivor of the holocaust, a person who after liberation devoted his life to both bringing justice to the victims of the holocaust and becoming a human rights champion and a broad sense trying to ensure that the lessons of that big would never be forgotten and that no group, jews or others, whatever suffer such a fate again. And in a sense theres a great affinity between that and between the trouble is the work of professor davis. For example, it doesnt take more than a cursory glance at our own world to the short of the idea we have fallen despite the defeat of the not see genocide and despite common sense of the depression and the genocides are content to present underworld even today. Professor david minds as an epilogue of his book that in slavery still exists and underserved conditions might even be restored on a larger scale in certain areas in todays world. So the affinity runs deeper. Than once work was shaped by defensive were too. As he himself has written and stated that quote living in the shadows of the holocaust amid the rubble and ruins of the worlds greatest war with weights tied to embark his group and as historic as a gold of unearthing the truth long break the need for superficial types of propaganda, the presentation a perspective of an overall comprehensive view of what people did and thought and why they did it. And, finally, to make people stop and think before blindly following some bigoted group to make the world safer. This was written in 1936 and clothing i guess has changed is that the list of those who endanger democracy has probably grown longer and wider. As i read the book i was drawn to reconsidering the relationships both google news and differences between the holocaust and the system of slavery that professor davis explored. Some recent examples that came to mind was the role of the victim often ignored in the first wave of studies, in do with the holocaust. Landmark study, the destruction of european jews, based only with the nazi perception of documentation, the witnesses from the nazi side and fully ignored the role and impact on the victims of the holocaust itself, which leads to consideration of a perspective included need and cost of collaboration which is also clinton five by the that professor davis twice brings a new book about quote selfpreservation at minimal cost of degradation and loss of selfrespect. That in turn is a question which raised in a literature of the holocaust and how to survive . Which the impact of survivor . What is the cost of survivor . The new film the last of the unjust. These issues are of course based upon the application of terms of dehumanization and again and mobilization which professor davis uses very much in his exploration and their intro session of the impact that they have on the community which go a long way to shaping the discourse of pressure but even the role of states, geography which is reflected in current literature in the holocaust as in timothy such important book loveland or the recent words of locating and marking chilling sights of Eastern Europe and the baltic whether nazis slaughtered more victims than a murdered in all death camps. That are of course differences as well. One such distinction is that once labeled ultimate and economic adventure had Great Success in the holocaust and Economic Needs were to the pursuit of genocide, rendering any accommodation by the jewish population, but fundamentally it comes down to the idea that there are evils in the past that we must learn from in order for us to have a practice future. Or ask i will conclude, history matters. And i would add it also helps as a Master Teacher and alumina, educate and inspire us to grow for our own wrote for our own answers as a professor davis has done for so many years. So tonight were to disobey the launch of the third and final volume of the trilogy of slavery, the problem of slavery in the age of emancipation. With two distinguished speakers who will join professor davis and conversation about the book and anything else they want to talk about. Following that your all invited downstairs or a light reception and book signing, and you can wanwanted to our individual and interaction museum which a 10 studio albeit in a much different manner with some of the same issues that professor davis has worked upon. Before introduced the speakers i would just ask anyone to silence their cell phone or whatever electronic type you are holding on. To remind you can we are being filmed by cspan. There will be time for questions afterwards, and now i would like to introduce our speakers. Im going to introduce two former students of professor davis who are now master scholars and researchers in their own right, they in turn will introduce their teacher as they go along with event. So sitting closest to me is William Casey king to earn his ph. D from Yale University and was honored to be named a former bond trader who has comee back to the candidates by by daytoday for the post a prizewinning the problem of slavery in the age of emancipation. His work includes the pbs document the life and work of the africanamerican, coproduced the film, an award once childrens book, a play he wrote, and a book on the history of ambition published last year by Joe University press. He has written for the washing post and wall street journal and new york times. Kind of film at harvard and director executive. He serves as executive director of analytical science at yale schooschool of medicine publicsl help it is named recipient as part of the White House Big Data Research and Development Institute and combat terrorism by monolog the department of treasury. John stauffer is professor of english american studies and africanamerican studies at harvard university. He writes on athletic, protest moves and photography. Is often an edit of 11 books, 60 articles. His most recent book is the battle of the republic. His essays have appeared in times, while sure to come new times, Washington Post and often does, and numerous scholarly journals books. He has been a consultant to hollywood films, the janco. He appeared in a documentary and was advisor for the film. With that background, those background, i think we are all looking for two and clothing exciting discussion and the floor is yours. [applause] so our goal is that the conversation with david and your all part of the conversation. But before we launched into this formal discussion, we often have dinner together, please wont you we will meet at a cafe in new haven. John bolton down and we were sure a couple dozen oysters and have a conversation about everything and anything. We thought on the occasion of the completion of the trilogy it would be a nice sort of spirit to attempt. May be so oysters might help and a bottle of wine but im going to turn the floor over to John Stauffer who is my friend and mentor. We will hopefully allow david to get a summer not only of the problem us the problem of slavery in the age of emancipation and others trilogy briefly and his public life. Ill start with a very brief summary. As most of you know, david is a sterling Professor Emeritus at Yale University. He has won virtually every award that a historian can win, including the Pulitzer Prize for National Book award and the present american association. I could go on and on but i wanted, we wanted to start by having david elucidate a bit about his background that led to this trilogy. And introductory remarks, one of things that was highlighted was that he became interested in slavery in the shadow of the holocaust as a world war ii, or postworld war ii soldier. Im wondering if would be willing to elaborate on the background that led you to become interested in slavery and abolition at a time in which the subject was, in large part, unexplored, unwritten. There were a few books but you go to a large degree, helped to create the feel of slavery and abolition. As you note in the preface of the problem of slavery in the age of emancipation, kind of stamp was an important influence but in terms of abolition studies, it was what a departure from your first book which was the study of homicide in american literature. He publishes this book, he was careful to remind me that he did his dissertation in three and half years. I think thats mind on and on. And all of a sudden he turns to slavery and antislavery at a time when the nation is being torn apart by racial strife and tension. Im just asking by how somebody would make this kind of paradigm shift, or shifts in interest in activity . Let me start by simply saying my interest in homicide did extend over into slavery in the sense that i wasnt much interested in the history of ideas and what was called intellectual history. I was hired at cornell in 1955 to teach english, and history which was already beginning, speaking as an only this, brand of study. We had this vast flood of social history from bottom up taking over the whole field of history. And i was interested in finding concrete subjects, but homicides or universal subjects like, side or slavery as the most extreme form of domination. At the rate of looking at changes. And moral perception. Of these forms of behavior. So there was that connection, but as i mentioned briefly in the introduction, in the 1930s and early 40s my family traveled all over the country. We live coasttocoast, and i went to many different schools, five high schools in four years but i never was in a classroom with africanamericans. In other words, even though i was in the north, it was a segregated society. But that all ended when i was drafted into the army in 1945, and was trained for the invasion of japan. And i was down in georgia for the first time in the south where i saw jim crow america at its worst. And when i was on, suddenly the war with japan ended i was on a troop ship bound for germany, and was ordered to go down into the hold of the ship to keep the giga boost, they said, from family. I had no idea there were any blacks o on the ship but its le a slave ship down below, and this went on until i became Security Policeman in germany. And was called out where there were bloody shootout conflict between white and black american soldiers. Part because there were many german girls who love to date black soldiers, and there were many white soldiers who were outraged by this. So my experience in germany where i spent a year in 4546 was an experience that for the first time introduced me to, there are racial issues of the country in a very dramatic way. And there also was the holocaust of course. I was in the shadow of that and some many survivors, we protect them going through the streets, were called out to protect truckload after truckload of survivors. So i was opened up to a lot of different new things as a very young soldier. And as i then went on with a g. I. Bill to go to college, i was very much interested in the racial issue, even though i failed to take part of the actual civil rights movement. I read a good many works on race, and when i was in graduate school at harvard, kenneth m. Stancu is a very distinguished historian from berkeley came for a semester to teach at harvard. And he lived near my apartment and we became good friends. He was about to publish the first truly great book on slavery in the American South that was not based on the assumption that whites were it was a very serious book, and suddenly talking with stamp made me realize in my classes at harvard and dartmouth as an undergraduate that didnt harbor anything but slavery alone abolitionism. This opened up the whole new prospect while i was working on homicide. It opened up the prospect of slavery and antislavery infields i would move on to a bit later. So when i fortunately in 1955 got an assistant professorship at cornell, to teach american history, i began bringing material on slavery into that. And when i was super lucky to get a fellowship in 58 and went off to britain, because the head of the Guggenheim Group thought i should really go abroad given my interests. I immersed myself in london and, well, what became the problem of slavery in western culture. Was going to be just a background chapter on the back of slavery became a whole book. And so i was launched that way on the first of three volumes spent did you imagine youd one day write a trilogy . I did. When you finish and you thought, im just going, the first chapter, was supposed in the first chapter, going to make this book and write to others . I anticipated i would be writing memorial spent did you imagine three books of . Im not sure exactly but i think is probably three but im not positive. In the wake of the narrative, david spiritual writers. His mom and dad. His father wrote peoples first film after the war speak was yes, clark gable. Was there a time when you thought id really like to be a writer as well of . All, i very much was interested in writing, yes. Though i actually, when i was an undergraduate i took some summer classes at Columbia University in french language and writing fiction, and it was a fairly well known woman teacher of fiction but she did much like my efforts that summer. So i never went on beyond trying to write more fiction after that. I was also struck, i remember we had a discussion whether there was a necessity to drop the atomic bomb on japan but i remember you telling me that they told you while theyre getting it to go to before the invasion of japan that you fully believe you going to go and i when they informed you at that moment. Well, i dont know about absolutely dying but we knew that when we get those beaches of japan it would be, it would make nobody look like nothing. They emphasize that in our training where we were having to use all kinds of weapons. In georgia, they had fake japanese villages we recaptured, and so on. I actually having had physics in high school, when the atomic bombs were dropped, i understood what the ee in e mc2 meant. I thought we might not ever have any more but it seemed without those bombs we still would have been hitting the beaches of japan spent the other thing i want to circle back to, you said you talked at cornell intellectual and cultural history which became the basis for the courses we both took at yale which was those studying slavery and antislavery. Did you feel it necessary to sort of because youre doing something new and made something that worked against american origins, is that why you couched it . Was that a necessary no. I was thinking, what would be on slavery and antislavery. I mean, i was interested in a broad survey of American Intellectual culture history. I was teaching a large lecture classes as well as seminars, but it was only a small part. Was a teaching slaver antislavery or people, and become especially come to your mac, and john is a lot of work on attitudes towards antislavery in the academy. John, maybe you before i ask the question, im just curious if you could just summarize some of the challenges that you faced when youre writing the problem of slavery in western culture and the problem of or in the problem of slavery in the age of revolution which was great different periods when bugs in 19 sixes six and the second published in 1975. And the challenges you faced as she tackled the problem of slavery in one beginning point of importance, i had not, ma there were other works at the time related to the problem of slavery in western culture. That, originally an introductory chapter of the book where i need to give some background on saving western culture. And as i worked in britain, thanks to the guggenheim fellowship, it grew and grew and grew. I go back to antiquity and look at western culture in general and slavery in western culture. And its somewhat more intellectual history, but certainly theres not much a social history in it. But when i moved on through the department of slavery in the age of revolution and im dealing with Industrial Revolution as well as with the american and french american revolutions and so political revolutions and so on. So im beginning in that second one to do a good bit with what i say with the abolitionists were up against. The first abolitionist. The first big question was why, and to give a moment in history, a fairly small group of men and women had come to see slavery, and absolutely terrible evil when it had been accepted pretty much for millennia, going back to plato and aristotle are cities and so on. But the age of revolution im dealing with, already had a transformation of moral perception so that quite a few people who feel that slavery is terrible and weve got to do something about it, then what is the relationship with that you need, for example, to a legitimate free factory labor. So i get into all kinds of things of that sort. And then going on to the haitian revolution. And devote part of your chapter to the socalled communization movement. The broad consensus in the arrest in the north as well as south. There was no flood of real unless you somehow to ported or moved the freed slaves outside. So i devoted a great amount of space to the movement which i felt had been very closely misunderstood. And a have a great deal of their crucial role of free blacks in the north. Combating the Colonization Movement and launching an immediate Abolition Movement in the 1830s committed to what they call the immediate emancipation is right. Still a stress again and again the rules of blacks themselves whether and 80 as rebels fighting the french and spanish and english or free blacks in the north. But i am selecting things here not trying to repeat what i have heard before. Some of the really unique things about this book for me is the way that he he is in his night ticket. There are so many immigrants that come out. It turns to this book, last of his trilogy and manages to do something original. How does one do that in about a year and a half, by the way . We would have lunch and he would complain about how slow the work was going to lead the end up at fault, broke a hip and a link. Yearandahalf it took. I dont know whats wrong. Its just not he would argue, quite a few body parts sphere. Touching of the theme which runs through the trilogy was wondering if you could really look to turn to the haitian revolution chapter, maybe read a bit from your book. Dehumanization and atomize edition of the faith and for enslaved humans is really something the you get that quite eloquent. And this is in the chapter, the first emancipate years, freedom and dishonor. You want me to read there . On january 2nd 1893 Frederick Douglas rose to flintridge speech dedicating the haitian pavilion at the chicago worlds fair. Daedalus was intimately involved in planning the pavilion. He took the opportunity of the speech to negate the common stereotype that haitians were lazy barbarians who devoted their leisure time to voodoo and child sacrifice. Much more significant is to add this used the speech to reflect back on the past century of emancipation. Douglas, after all, was born a slave and had Won International team through his writing in the oratory and the service of black emancipation. As the most prominent blacks books but its been of the new world douglas had no difficulty in identifying one of the central events in the history of emancipation. The reds, we should not forget that the freedom you and i enjoy today, free of the 800,000, people enjoy in the british west indies, the freedom that is come of the colored race the world over is largely due to the brave stance taken by the black slums of 89 years ago when they struck for freedom they struck for the freedom of every black man in the world. He made sure to know that blacks and owed much to the american and british abolitionists including anti slavery societies in countries around the world. Blacks, he noted such a low incomparably more to haiti. It was a historic first for emancipation. It was the original plan. He had instructed the world and the demonstrated that the laden powers in capabilities of the black race and only to be awakened. Once awakened of former slaves to the Western District in defeating 50,000 of napoleons veteran troops. Not only that, but these insurgents turned to establish an independent nation of the room making. The wide world could and would never be the same until haiti spoke no christian nation had abolished the gross slavery. Until she spoke the slave trade was sanctioned by all the christian nations of the world. Our land of liberty and life. Until haitis boat the church was silent and the pulpit. Of course the history, he knew the though whites, hell of horrors, the very name pronounced with a shudder in the beginning of his speech. Indeed the revolution and inevitably encountered. As an abolitionist raked in 411865 douglas have avoided mention of the haitian revolution in his public speeches, debates, and interviews. The abolitionist douglas knew the perceptions all too well. For some the revolution have been an object lesson in the inevitable social and economic ruin that would attend in the form of emancipation. For others it was a veritable word massacre, racial liner made real. Yet this did not change daedaluses condition that the haitian revolution was a watershed event. Beautiful. Thank you for reading that. I want to ask a question about colonization. You devote four chapters in this book. Could you summarized why colonization is so attractive to so many different kinds of people . Well, and the beginning going way back to 18thcentury colonization always on the minds of people in terms of something, slaves to have been born and brought, returning them back to their continent. Foreign example, samuel hopkins, a descendant, a protege of Jonathan Edwards who was motivated by disinterested benevolence. When he moved in 1770 to newport, rhode island and was very anti slavery, he tried to make it possible for the black slaves who were free to return to africa. They wanted to go and he assumes many would want to go. But as you move on into the 19th century of course more and more slaves were born in america. The slave trade had been cut off osuna is a great danger of being read enslaved few return to africa. There still are well, as more and more isolated from freed in the north the beginning in 17 a. D. , pennsylvania and so one. More and more slaves were freed in the north, you have a tremendous increase in antiblack racism. The lax where tonight virtually all regular rights and privileges to it there was a broadening consensus among whites that the only way you would ever get published opinion behind abolition would be free movies free slaves back to africa or possibly in the 18 twenties. Many returned from 80. In light of the central america. Various important black leaders went along with this. So have black and half in the, and ardent collector who was very wealthy. He was hoping to set of colony there the what kind of model showing of free blacks could achieve their various things. He actually was in touch with british abolitionists. He even interviewed president James Madison one was in a bachmann engineering madison. He would not president knows. Because he was quickly called and james. He died and four shortly in 1817. His own influence with them and someone beneficial. And it. In internal was for colonization in the beginning. So was Bishop Richard allen who was the major religious leader in philadelphia. But in 18 in january 1817 after the founding of the American Colonization Society they enemy of 3,000 african free africanamerican. 3,000. But it put it to a vote. None of them wanted to have anything to do with colonization. So over allen had to shift. It took them a little while to change her mind. They overwhelmingly decided to oppose the composition. So it got set up beginning in 1817, black opposition to a Colonization Society which had been lost. I forgot to say that jefferson will president jefferson was very much for colonization. So was president lincoln. Even after the emancipation proclamation for some time the still would cling a little bit to some kind of colonization. So so i think we have to look much more carefully. Thats why i did though various chapters to the subject. Many to look quite carefully at the socalled decision concept which was wish to promote as the blacks realized, promoted purchase. But i devote a lot of space to that in the book. You also devote an extraordinary amount of space to the crucial role of free blacks in emancipation. In fact you have a chapter titled for me when i read it in a manuscript form and again in published form among the title itself i found revolutionary. Free blacks is the key to an exhibition. As a revolutionary because free blacks never constituted more than 13 of the black population roughly one person of the american population. Given that small number comparatively why where did the key . A bubble and resisting the hopes of the American Colonization Society that it would be to return voluntarily go after liberia. The in the 18 twenties and began publishing their own newspaper. Freedoms journal published by several cornish and john. John and goons, converts to the colonization and goes off. And i stress that especially by the 1850s a very large number except for douglas have been produced one form or another of colonization. And this comes on down to the 1920s with marcus party who has the first mass black movement. It while today he is scorned, but Martin Luther king went to lay a wreath on his grief. It because of his having the first mass black movement. So even as late as the 1920s we have carryovers where kirby actually places the ses, the American Colonization Society. And a point dont the americans discount and then becomes an indy but becomes a very successful doctor in new york city and is very, very important black figure before the civil war. But we have various kinds of by the late 1850s, enormous free black achievements in this effort to uplift the free black population. This is obscured by the dread scott decision. Of course the most famous, it to 48 and then in 1941 was invited innards to give a speech to nantucket where all of the Massachusetts Society was meeting with keresan wendell phillips, samuel the kamal these people were spellbound by douglas speech. He was very much incorporated into the anti slavery movement. But with regard to fugitives there is a key bit of misunderstanding. I go along with the assertion of many historians that the number of fugitives was never large enough to endanger the institution in any way and the south, even though in the south itself huge numbers of slaves are running away. In fact in the 1850s well over 50,000 ran away from their own if but did not go far. In a free north by 1860 there was about 45 fugitives living in the north. It was not a real threat to the system. Ideologically it was enormous since the u. S. Constitution, of course, had tried to avoid using the word slave. They tried to prevent Northern State that were already beginning to show that they would serve freeing slaves to prevent them from giving shelter and refuge to us live from the south. There was the 1793 in the terrible it to 50 fugitives when wall. And only about 298 slayings were returned to slavery by the end of 1860. It was something that was read directly. So it had a big impact on the coming of the civil war and the way. Back to the issue of free blacks and the fact it you are really high letting this in the book and also getting a range of three black experience. Did you guys a depiction of the north, someone in an ideal community. And john pointed out its actually a process, fairly accurate portrayal of this one community, but for the majority of three blacks in america and at that time, as you point out what it chapters of the challenges were far more significant. Freedom from slavery did not mean freedom for racial oppression. And you did this wonderful moment in davids book and its really unusual for a historian, especially a professor of history. All this suddenly erin third person. David demands that you take it tremendous amount of imagination and imagine what it is a free black sunland a first person in have the space of a free black in america at that time. To we have time . Such a great moment. Dont you guys want to your . Its come later than i realize. We will take questions in the second. This is just to the many you can give an abbreviated mall but. I think this gets back to the fact that this book is really a fine history but fine writing in the such a pleasure to read. He takes risks that most people are afraid to take this historians and writers. Okay. Ill skip over. Of just a passing its worth underscoring the obvious but often neglected point that for the general public, especially in america the key issue raised by abolitionism was the statist and condition of free slaves. Well many free blacks over came from the barriers to great achievements and so on that they were still up against the use of their incapacity and loss of selfrespect and soul. The demand at that keeping the president in place since a one. The complexities of this struggle especially involving such issues as black gratitude and reaction to white paternalism, special effects, and efforts on the part of both author and reader. We must try her at the start to imagine what it would have been like to have been a free black abolitionist in antebellum north so i and then switch on. And now have a different kind. As freed negro is in the mid 1840s for we abolitionists and most of the blacks are always conscious that most of barbara and of slaves in the south. And we can easily be kidnapped or officially arrested and sold in the south suddenly deprived of our family members and i very names which, of course, happens. But in some ways free blacks have better off in the deep south. Freed blacks are. New laws he plus from hindering are sadly in states north of the river. In many towns in the north have passed ordinances requiring us to register or even post bond for good behavior. Most states to deny as the right to vote, sit on juries, or even testify against whites in court. Most free blacks are illiterate and even our children have a little chance of attending a great school. Perhaps most important we are surrounded by White Supremacy and are constantly viewed as inferior people in our daily interactions with whites is sometimes verbally cars or ridicule us or even spit up bonus industry. And his ego will be bell and step off the wall to let them pass. No matter how close we might become too low white friend we cannot accompany him or her to most restaurants, hotels, stores, libraries, lectures, concerts, and Public Places except for a very few radical communities. I remember when you were contemplating his departure and said you worry that my editor may not me bristle that i am switching. Ive got one word for you. Enough said. Do not allow them to change. So we will open up for questions it just want to end by saying that this trilogy began 40 years ago. The problem was slavery in western cultures published in 1966 to one the Pulitzer Prize in 1967. The pill is a prize winner for history in 1966 was perry millers posthumous book, the life of the mind in america from the revolution to the civil war and you knew from harvard, you and respect. To give you a sense of the significance went back to perry millers life in the mind of america from the revolution to the civil war. There is not a single mention of slavery or abolition in that entire book. In history. Right. Up against in cold blood. In proms of slavery in the age of revolution, among both of them and the others, the problem of slavery in the age of emancipation, i will bet money it will win many very prestigious awards. Throughout this entire time you have also directed over 60 fifty. Fifty dissertations including mine in caseys in many of you in this room. Your graduate students, a former graduate students are represented in every Major Research institution in the United States and many abroad. Not just the fields of history, but fields as diverse as english , law, public health. It is truly extraordinary. And the conclusion of this trilogy 40 years later is an extraordinary inspiration not just to historians but to every writer, to everyone who writes. And so i want to thank you for that inspiration. I cant thank you enough for the reviews you wrote in the wall street journal. [laughter] when they asked me and i confess, i know david was my student. A senate would love to do it, but i have to disclose my relationships. They let me write it. I acknowledge my relationship by saying that he directed my dissertation. So it was a real honor for me to be able it was an honor for me to have you do it. Why dont we open it up for questions and comments and criticisms. Thank you so very much. In your book, the problem was slavery was of course a prominent book. In those days there were not many books like that. What has always bothered me is the use of the bible both in defending slavery and fighting for emancipation. Of course is abhorrent to me that the bible was to defend slavery. On the other hand, theres no question that those who fought for emancipation did use the bible. You mentioned a few individual spirit of quite sure they also did that. I was wondering i have read your books, but in your judgment what is the weight of the bible in that particular balance of the struggle to defend slavery or to fight against it . What is the role of the bible . Thats a very, very important and extremely complicated question. The bible, of course has all kinds of conflicting messages. In fact in the bible study groups we have been reading parts call for and justify genocide. The great narrative is extremely important in the sense that the children, the people, the jews are freed from slavery in egypt. Brings them 40 years out of egypt, and this exodus paradigm becomes extremely important for large numbers of africanamericans, slaves, who learned the bible, read from the bible. So i think that depends on where you look and whats going to be most important. But i think the exit is narrative is extremely importa important. In the introduction there was a comparison implicitly made between the economic logic of slavery called successful versus the idea that the logic of genocide undermines economic selfinterest. Do you see that as part of the Antislavery Movement and abolition was connected, that slavery was not compatible with the new industrial free market economy and the new ideology of free labor . And does slavery and same with genocide raise the question of the problem of evil and excessive aggression in society . One final question is, how do you explain the fact that lets say the equivalent of zionism within africanamerican social movements didnt reach the same success that they did with him, lets, Jewish Society after the holocaust . Now, there were i guess three questions there. The one that, im a little confused, but it well, my problem of slavery in the age of revolution i examine in quite some detail the issue of free labor ideology. And i think that theres no question that the need in britain especially high noon the Industrial Revolution, the need to justify the kind of Industrial Labor in the late 18th century was really taking hold. Contributed to the Antislavery Movement and, indeed, there was a post slavery writer in britain who claimed that, in fact, the whole Abolition Movement that was rising in the late 18th century was an attempt to divert attention from the terrible exploitation of workers in britain. It was much worse, he went on and on about how much worse the labor was of Industrial Workers in britain than of slaves. Slaves were, in franklins you, very well taken care of and were happy. They were very happy in the british west indies. And he even said, a famous prize in Cambridge University for an essay on antislavery, one of the launching points of the Antislavery Movement in britain when he won this prize. And he said why doesnt cambridge have prizes for essays on the industrial working and that children and women in the minds and so on. So you begin to have an argument of this directive in that way. And i think it would be a mistake to think that abolitionists were consciously trying to, you know, justify bad things in england. But theres a very complex relationship there between the two. Was that part of your question . [inaudible] actually one of the things we probably wont have time much to talk about 12 years of slaves, the movie and the book which ive just reread the book, having seen the film quite a long time ago, but one of the things that troubles me a bit about 12 years of slaves and even in the book is that thats all on the north of, as you know, the queen from newark state who is kidnapped and taken to the south for 12 years, that he argues that the cruelty is mainly the fault of the system, that its not, you are bound to have people who will export slaves terribly if you have a system like this. Buddies arguing the system is very uneconomical, and if you take solomon northups views on free labor versus slave labor, he would not be able to explain why slavery in the south was so immensely productive and profitable, even though they were using the last so much to try the slaves on and on and on. And that raises an interesting question. Spinks of the other part of your question was about zionism, comparison of blacks and jews. Theres an article [inaudible] well, theres a new article in the israeli magazine which draws a distinct parallel between the treatment of palestinians today and come by the israelis and slavery in the new world. But the author backed away again and again from trying to draw a complete parallel, and amidst that there are very few reasons, you know, between the treatment of palestinians in the treatment of black slaves. And so it doesnt stand out as much, all that convincing. It seems to me, but then we have all kinds of efforts to compare Human Trafficking of various sorts and other kinds of oppression today with racial slavery and the past. This gets very controversial. Professor davis can about six or seven years ago in london you were the keynote speaker at a conference of historians sponsored by the Templeton Foundation on the subject, is there meaning in history . Spink is there what . Meaning in history. It was somewhat controversial subject most of the professionals with their who ducked the question. And there were noted historians from pan, from oxford, from cambridge and harvard and elsewhere, and you were the keynote speaker. You deferred answering the question until the final lecture of your presentation, and you said well, i dont know that i can answer that question. Its not my day job, or something to that effect. But i have a hard time explaining how within a short period of 60, 70, 80, 90 years the world turned on its head and its attitude towards slavery. I cant explain it. Or something to that effect. In light of, you are not written the last of your trilogy at that point but in light of your most recent work, would you care to a man or extend your remarks speaks im afraid i dont remember, remember this at all, or whatever it was i said there. I think my trilogy attempts to explain as well as i can how there was this revolution in what i call moral position. So that from the 1780s when you begin, well, 1777 vermont adopts a constitution outlawing slavery and then pennsylvania passes a law for the emancipation of slaves in pennsylvania. And a few years later in paris, they are in correspondence with london and so on and so forth. By the 1780s youve got antislavery organizations beginning to rise up. And the 1888, even though in 1776 slavery was legal and thriving from canada to argentina and chile, in 1888 when brazil finally outlawed slavery in the space of 100 years, we outlawed slavery throughout the entire hemisphere. And i think this is a very, very remarkable event, which i really concluded the book by saying we need not come we should not forget that there been such moral progress as possible. In fact both in his book and in human bondage you highlight the importance of the moral, the wheel of moral achievement thats extremely important in history. Do you mind reading the very last paragraph of your book . Because i think its really rich and profound. Well, im talking first as i approach the end of the book, im talking here about Human Trafficking and about 40 we fortuity and this century that we ought to end the slave and, outlawing slavery in the new world, that the century depended on all kinds of fortuitous events along the way. But i said then if my friends and i were suddenly stripped of our two century convincing and plummeted back to mississippi in 1860 we would doubtless take advantage of our rule over slaves. That human nature im saying in effect does not change. So an astonishing historical achievement like the center i just mentioned really matters an astonishing struggle that really mattered the outlawing of slavery in the new world and then globally represents a crucial landmark of moral progress that we should never forget. Thats the way i and the book. [applause] booktv is on facebook. Like us to interact with