Said that it was called true crime but we wanted it to be a social issue and explain a creature like whitey could only exist in a certain time and place and pecuer pucular to boston because the irish were in control of politics, Law Enforcement and business. The influence of the Italian Mafia the fbi could create a National Policy to go after the mafia and use whitey to say they were being used to help get the mafia. This is a story with great sweep. And there was a guy named John Mccormick who was the representative from boston. Dot. He did because if youre an fbi agent your prestige, status within the bureau is based on creating informants. And Whitey Bulger was seen as a very high level organizedcrime figure. There was an ulterior motive. He wanted to protect the Whitey Bulger family. He was very close. So a lot of and you know, i think you all probably know that Martin Scorsese did a film, the departed, which is the very, very loosely based on the whitey character. But the whole story is about sort of the, how this could only happen. You been covering organized crime. I know you have been working in providence providence. Not only was elected as a criminal, but then got reelected you are familiar with these kinds. Oh, my goodness. [laughter] i actually have covered organized crime going back to the mid80s. Well he has the distinction in boston, it was the First Time Ever that the fbi had taperecorded a mafia induction ceremony were mobsters from around new england gathered just outside boston and burned holy cards and purge their trigger figures and vowed to kill anybody for the family. The interesting thing is that, you know, they play those tapes in court, we get to hear them. But this was like one of the big, major coups of the fbi in boston. One of the agents to have some of the informants who told them where this ceremony would be was John Connally. So has the story unfolds we find out that, you know, he is using Whitey Bulger and his partners, and other gangsters from boston as informants against the mafia. So we get to see how these cases that made heroes of the fbi, you know, late 80s, early 90s have really decimated the mafia in new england. Comes full swing. Now their relationship with whitey has overshadowed all of those successes. So it has been an interesting turn of events. The thing about boston is the million know, the fbi had a National Policy for targeting the mafia. And it made sense, but in boston where, you know, whiteys gang was just as powerful if not more so it did not really make much sense to use the head of that gang to target the italians. Im now getting barfield cards of mafia bosses from prison saying what happened. In the process of reporting on and is covering the story there were many oh my goodness moments. Can you talk about that . In the records. Well, yeah. One of the fascinating things about whitey, hes not hes a fascinating character. He has a very rich history. Some of you may know him as one of the fbis ten most wanted. He was on the ten most wanted list right next to a lot and until he was captured in santa monica, california couple of years ago. And living just a couple of blocks from the beach. It was quite a life, living at this with body was charlie gas bill from new york. One of the things that was interesting is he was a bank robber. He committed a string of bank robberies. He was convicted in 1966 and sent off to federal prison. And because he was involved in some escape attempts he ended up and out contrast which was, you know, the maximumsecurity federal prison for the worst of the worst. And much to our delight as reporters anybody who has ever done time at alcatraz, their entire prison cell is open to the public to see. You can go read letters that he wrote to his brother when he was in prison camino, what his life was like. Its just amazing to get this done to him as the man. One of the things, we have known him in recent years as this vicious, scary criminal killer. To see these letters, if youre in federal prison at least at that time your lab director and people. And whitey had a pretty big family. Six of the people or immediate family members and the other for all priests. Who else would a killer right to but one of the fascinating things is that political connections, so while hes at alcatraz his brother billy is law school. We can see from the records that billy managed to have manage to become his brothers mentor in prison. Receive these letters. And he was very big in the Prison Reform and believed whitey when he said, oh, im so tired of being the black sheep of the family. Im going to get out and go straight. You know, and he actually meant for him. He also used his connections to have at this time mccormick who kevin reference became the speaker of the house, a u. S. House. And because of the boston connections the speaker of the house, whitey is and how to address in the family is worried about him. As far as you can get his in the middle of seven cisco bank. House speaker mccormack called the director of the bureau of prisons and said, can you go check on jimmy Whitey Bulger and see how hes doing . So the director of prezs five sentences gets on the ferry in does that to the present, jimmy, how are you being treated . So its very interesting. Part of what was fascinating about reading the book was the debunking of the myth of whitey. I lived in boston are a lot of this time. Whitey was a gentleman criminal who was always nice to women. So can you talk a bit about the joy that you got in debunking the myth . The one thing we tried to show is how that came to be so widespread, particularly in south boston. Really goes down to when he was a young criminal and the late 40s and early fifties he actually had a car in this neighborhood. He grew up in the house. He had a car because it was a criminal. What he would do is drive around when he wasnt with is Jayne Mansfield lookalikes girlfriend he would be going prowling around, not looking for criminal opportunities petallides. If he saw an old lady trudging down the street with a rush receive a pullover and is also bill convertible, jump out, open the door and say, come on, get into the car. And she happened to be the mother so i remember talking in the 80s. A distraught described how people they used a top College Still talking, set out on the stoops and the project during house Summer Nights and just talk. Though, Whitey Bulger. All the old ladys committees and nice and man. The zero stops and brings me of members restored. So whitey was very consciously cultivating this because you need to be a criminal you had to have your neighborhood not turn on you. You have to have them not cooperate with the cops. So it wasnt so much with criminals it was important to be feared. Would not criminals it was important to be liked. So when we saw he spent his entire criminal career cultivating this image of him as the good bad guy, the gangster with scruples. You know, gangsters with scruples dont marry murder young women and hidden them maria women and hide them in graves. Dea agents, Massachusetts State Police saying that he controls all the drugs. And his politician brother lyle was go along with, why always voted for live in south boston came up to me and hit me in the chest with the figure saying youre printing lies about my brother. You would never get involved in drugs. We all knew was not true, but there was also no conclusive evidence. So one of the most satisfying cases in his recent trial, his own lawyers got up there and admitted that he made millions and millions of dollars from the drug trade. You know, his lawyer went to Great Lengths to say that it was only cocaine and marijuana. He drew the line and heroin angel dust. What a guy. [laughter] you made a comment that this could only have happened in boston. In the Legal Profession there were people known as triple eagles who had gone to Boston College is seemed as though that was also part of the police system, the political system and also part of the reporting system. A story stifled with i think there was a lot of difference, incredible difference. I would compare it to the catholic church. Like a said, i was on the team has been some many months, more than a year working on it. I saw no difference between the fbi and the catholic hierarchy. What they were doing, they were protecting at all costs institutions. So they didnt care what happened individuals. So the bishops didnt care that children were being raped. They just move the pen gas to different places and let them do with all over again because there were so obsessed with keeping the institution of scandal. And the same thing with the fbi. The fbi did not care that innocent people were being murdered by whitey because they did not want the scandal to come out that they have protected whitey and enable them. I mean, its not that the fbi looked the other way. They actually lied to colleagues within the bureau. There were agents and Oklahoma City were trying to the nail whitey for murder of a legitimate businessman and the agency lie to their colleagues and get that guy back on the streets of a good murder people. So to me its about the abuse of power and the idea that institutional core option, its not the peculiar to the bureau, not peculiar to the archdiocese of boston where the archdiocese of newark. Its peculiar the power. Can you talk a little bit about the individuals impact it . Your book is one of the unique books that brings out the victims instead of emphasizing the gangster. I think the one thing that was very important to us was not to sensationalize the story. I mean, this story is so amazing so many twists and turns and lives impacted that it was important to us that people understood that this, you know, the family, this was their life. It was very tragic. Last summer her charging him with federal racketeering for killing 19 people in the 1970s and 80s. He was convicted. The jury found that he was guilty of a 11 of those murders. They could not Reach Agreement on one. The others they just dont the government failed to prove. We will was difficult for these families is for years there was a lot of year. Even people who respected had no way to go. What was happening was people would get to the fbi and whitey would find out about it. Some of the murders were instances where other people when an informed that knowing that he was the biggest and form of all would be killed. In many of these people, as kevin said, some of these victims were buried in secret graves. In the story really did not begin to fully unfold and tell he went on the run. In 1995 he was indicted in boston on racketeering charge. Just weeks before the indictment in fbi agent who was then retired want him to run. So he took off. While he was on the run basically what happened is, you know, his codefendants were arrested began filing motions in court to find them if there were informants involved. The fbi was forced to publicly make checks that it is true, he was an informant. Some of his friends just couldnt believe it. One of the things we found most amazing is for the mafia, they just couldnt believe that he would be an informant. They could not believe that the fbi would be in bed with such a vicious guy. The fbi actually used as a freelance hit man. He would do jobs. So they were many of his closest associates felt betrayed and there were also facing indictment. They cut deals. Theres been a lot of criticism of the deals that were cut, but it was the deals that were cut that allows all these people to give really. But it also is will lead investigators to the secret graves to be deserted digging a bodies of people who had vanished in the 70s and 80s. There were six victims recovered for the families who sat through this a week of it was so important to them to be able to look him in the eye and see in one trial. I have to tell you, after all these years of people being so terrified of him, i think there was a real i dont believe in the word closure. And dont think any victim ever as closure. I dont know why the media uses such a word, but the families felt empowered to finally see him as this old man sitting there and child and having his day in court, finally being brought to justice. I also think it was so amazing to see some of these victims families get on the witness stand and looking in the eye, people who would have been too afraid to do that. My favorite part of this call we document the book, he is an el not racist and misogynist and fought like hell to get the first judge removed from the case to be the next as the cannon was a black woman. [applause] so every day he had to look up at this camino, remarkably educated. Ted, very nice africanamerican judge. And shes a hell of judge pierre be the last words in this case were spoken by her. She let them, a remarkable talk well we had gone through a lot in boston, the marathon bombings, the wet socks winning. She said its been a traumatic year and to try and figure for our city. You, sir, do not represent our city. Some people of treachery u. S. This myth the boston. You do not represent the city sits in the courtroom to sing, you go girl. John connally emerges as interesting figure. I heard him interviewed. He was arguing that the deal that the fbi cut with Whitey Bulger was that they could commit any crime other than murder. Steve funny. So then, it was saying, no, i wasnt the deal was for. He is now serving jail time on a harsher jail sentence then given weeks to actually kill people. In the and John Connally caused people to die. He is now serving a 40 year prison term faugh says in miami the really is travesty. He has become a scapegoat for everything the fbi did wrong. There were other agents. If you read the book you will see that there was a time when whitey was an fbi informant, the two of them are sitting down to these cozy dinners with fbi agents, swapping Christmas Gifts they treated him like he was a partner, not a criminal. And so there were testimonies that other agents took bribes, got money. One agent who was a supervisor and, you know, we believe cost at least one or two murders, he had immunity from prosecution and never served a day. Theres something wrong when you see that age to get up on the stand with immunity. We think they were worse than the gangsters. And he was crying and sobbing about how sorry he is and he now works in a soup kitchen. Everybody feels better about that. The fbi and the Justice Department, this was always about minimizing the expense of corruption recognized. Right now the fbi and the Justice Department want people 50 years her not to say, oh, yeah, those are bad kids gobble only one agent to prison. One of the things we show in the book, one of the real heroes in this case he made this thing get public, he identified a dozen fbi agents and supervisors to be believed could be charged with crimes. But the fbi and Justice Department let the statute of limitations run. There is an agent called me and said i would be murdered if we reported that while he was an informant. Nothing ever happened to him. One of the most shocking things in the book and it doesnt take a lot around, Steve Fleming in one of his reports that we went over told the fbi, im sorry, told the state police and the Drug Enforcement administration that an fbi agent who got in trouble for stealing the handlers at the unabombers kamen up in montana, i think his excuse was there were out in the trash. Whenever at throwing and was a put them in the trash. Anyway, john newton Steve Fleming said gave him and Whitey Bolger 40 pounds of seed for explosive which then they shipped to the ira. Presumably the Irish Republican Army use this stuff on a tax on military and Police People throughout the united kingdom. And when he called john newton and said, john, heres we want your side of this, this is with the delegation is. I didnt do that. Thats not true. Is followed was, what did you tell your supervisors anybody else in the Justice Departments . Says. Letter i was told he lied. But those antlers on. You too are actually the first people i have ever heard accused Steve Fleming instead of steve the rifleman fleming. The talk a little bit of gusty the rifleman. Well, he actually heard that nickname because he was a paratrooper with the 187 theyre born in korea. Thats where he got the name. On the streets of boston people would say that name came from somewhere else because he was a known killer. One of the interesting things when you talk about something being close to home, my father was a paratrooper in the same combat unit and had served in korea and did not know steve when they were in service. My father years ago was raising money for the Korean War Memorial in washington and meet Steve Fleming and sell some, oh, we have this group that is together with their wives. Scottsdale ariz. One weekend. We travel with their wives. We all get together. Steve joined the group. And im writing about him. Hes a suspect in drug dealing. Meanwhile, hes going to read these airborne retreats on weekends around the country. Im like my dad, this guy is like really bad. I sure hope he doesnt know your daughter is. Kinda scary. So he eventually figured out who are wise and i was concerned that there were getting a little close. It was funny because my father knew who he was. I kind of had this inside information. I found out that on the 50th anniversary of the airborne there was this huge celebration in washington, the group from new england led the parade. The general westmoreland was there. Steve fleming showed up at this dinner with all these, you know, highranking officials in washington with his good buddy jamie bolger, whitey. There were actually there. They took photos with this medal of honor winner. He was in this white suit. When he went on the run the fbi, what a shock, did not have very many photos of him. So there were looking for photos to put out to people when he was wanted. One of the photos they track down was this photo from the airborne celebration. That was one of the pictures. The cut the medal of honor winner out. Im sure he was happy about that oh, my goodness. And then the ira gun running fiasco. Kevin, did you come across that . You did a lot of work on Northern Ireland in the peace corps. I mean, i knew i got a lot of stuff for people. It was interesting because we knew that that mission went to the ira. It was the biggest gun Running Mission of the United States during all charles. We knew that he was involved because the guy that really ranid was a confederate. He was a career criminal. He said he had not been for years. Stockholm syndrome. But when i was i mean after that one of the i was in 97i was over there living in ireland. Theres still a lot of trouble going on. I remember there was a guy killed. He was married to the niece of the political wing of the ira. I went to a place what was the gown fiasco . It would have been 84. And our going 13 years for. Yeah. Now hes on the run by this time. A friend of mine knew came up to me and said, will you talk to someone so. And as soon as he said it and knew who he was, the nickname of this guy, the ira commander in an area but had been the ira commander during the hunger strikes in 1981. The city wants to talk to you. Okay. Tens of thousands of people lined up. I go. I went and put my hand out. He said yakima that was in the paper. I said yes he is. In that was all you wanted to talk about. I always wondered. What he portrayed himself to be just sort to be put you cant be , its like being a little pregnant be can be a little and former. The ira would have put him in the chair. There would have gone information out of the mall where another. Ill stop that hes lucky he dodged that. When he took off a lot of people said it was in ireland. The fbi went to ireland many times to look for him. I knew that the last place you would go because he knew first of all he would have been found out. There would have been on him like that. If the ira ever found and he knew exactly what was going to happen to read a friend of mine who works, he actually on more the one occasion picked up fbi agents who were going over to supposedly look for him in ireland. One day he came to boston. I took him out. He said man said the fbi guys, really serious leads . Theyll voice of the clubs. Since. So he fail listening necessary. He also went into a business venture. I mean, part of the debunking of the Whitey Bulger myth that i think your book did successfully was show what a loser he was on some many different levels. Can you talk a little bit, and only is it one of the best words, but it was a legitimate business in boston. That was a sad case. Roger wheeler was president of telex, he was shot to Death Outside a country club in tulsa back in 1981. His murder was really orchestrated by beck Whitey Bulger gang as part of an attempt they apparently one of the former president of the company had been skimming money. The company had been sold, a legitimate businessman to my employer allow the people in the tulsa area, somebody was embezzling. They killed him as part of a plot to take over the company. To avoid indictment. And then there were subsequent murders to cover up the first murder. And so the fbi in tulsa, the tulsa police were aggressively trying to solve the murder. Theyre sending, you know, it all came out in court, sending most of the fbi in boston, a, we are hearing that family and the people believe this murder may have something to do with the winter hill gang back in boston. Who did day assigned to us are looking but John Connally, the fbi agent his 20s and let. They never disclosed to the tulsa police that he was an informant. So they did not share of their formation. Eventually there were a number of murders connected to this, one down in florida and two more in boston. They finally bring bolger and his sidekick Steve Fleming in to interview him at the fbi. They refused to be interviewed together. They refuse to do it in the fbi offices to be there were dictating terms. They come and and take the stand. And theyre very angry at the government. They can my you know, when its finally revealed they sued, filed a wrongful death suit against the government like many of these families did. So what the government did, if you want to sue the federal government in a wrongful death case, federal tort claim you have to file your claim within two years of being wrong to or within two years of when a reasonable person would have no matter case. What they did was the government argued the fbi was liable but he should announce an initiative filed center. And they one and a lot of these cases were dismissed. So is a lot of bitterness by the families that not only with the victims but then there were screwed by the governments. What is your favorite part of the Whitey Bulger story . The and. [laughter] there were a lot of people who thought there would never be caught and were afraid he would ride off into the sunset and that will be the end of it. To have him, was so important. And while he was on the run he did come to arizona and nevada to buy guns. He stockpiled 30 guns while he was one of the fbis ten most wanted to be when they arrested him and the use the identity a number of false ids. What he did at santa monica was look for homeless people, people that kind of looked like him and by their identities for the debate one and 200 for is id. The actor and his cost of. A couple months ago after the trial his lawyer was giving a speech to a bunch of Defense Attorneys in boston. At one point, kind of bizarre, the lawyer talked about how he fantasized about, you know, choking me until he is the light from my eyes. I wrote a column saying thats not particularly original. As my wife would say, if you want to strangle me get in line. Oh, my. [laughter] my favorite story was when Whitey Bulger won the massachusetts lottery. Here we have his brother as the president of the senate and then went on to be the head of the umass system. We have this criminal. It was insane. And there are some questions, when he was on the run. They seized what was left of his lottery winnings. You know, there were different versions of what really happened. It was actually, you know, the brother of one of his associates to have one. Then they claim that it was, oh, well, the deal was a few one u. S. Book the tickets so many ways. It really was legitimate and come to make it look like he had a legitimate and come. It was a way of laundering money the government did seize that when he fled. They also found 822,000 in cash stuffed in the wall of the santa monica apartment after he had been on the run for 60 years. And i found all these guns in the wall. But its amazing. He was such a master of manipulation. People said, if you wanted your like him you would like him. He would be charming and engaging. And he had so charmed his neighbors in santa monica as some of them continued to write to him even though they found all these guns in the wall the like, yeah, but you know he would never use them. They find it hard to believe. They say they guy we knew was charlie gas go. We dont know that Whitey Bulger guy. While we try to say is whitey is a man of contradictions. One of the most chilling contradictions about them, several murders and when she was charged with shooting somebody in the head and then going up and taking in at while his loessers bury those bodies in it and grace. And yet when we went to louisiana and found his family the had befriended by was on the run, they had to put a dog down. And whitey about the shooting it will be more humane, but when the guy went to shoot the dog when he turned away, he could not watch it. He began to weep. So he can we pau red dog and sleepover human being. Thats weird. So we have about 20 minutes left. If youve got questions theres a microphone or a year. This is being taped and broadcast on cspan. Make sure that you clearly enunciate your question. Yeah. I have a question. While you were doing all this investigative writing did you ever personally feel threatened . How did they try to stop you from disclosing all this . The only serious threat i got was from the fbi when they call me and said that if we wrote that he was an informant he would think nothing of calling me. I was living of my wife and south boston. So eventually we came to the conclusion that the fbi, there was a formal process that there would have to notify me or anybody who had been threatened a murderer like that and it did not do that. We came to the conclusion that this was really just an attempt to intimidate the globe to not publish. So just to be sure right before we publish that my wife and i moved from south boston. We moved nine stops down the transit. What from mikes out the to harvard square. And never find is in harvard square. [laughter] and we, you know, we look to live there for a couple of weeks a very good massachusetts state cop had a very good informant within the Whitey Bulger group on the fringes of it. He reported that whitey was not mad about the disclosure of him being an informant. Nobody would believe them. We found a report where he said that. Do we need to take you off the street . Nobody will believe it. This is the glow going after my brother. Well live there a couple more years. One of the most fascinating things, he refused to talk to us. We wrote to him a number of times. What he did write, friends of the chassis shared letters. We read these letters. It was amazing to see. He may have a lot of problems, but one of them is not selfesteem. The things he said, he told a press dont talk to chellean kevin. I was a trader. He went to turn the clock back and paid given a visit. When i read the letters, although my leave, but now im really happy. Why the think it took the fbi so long to start with the Advertising Program meant one of the things that we show in the book, for the first two years there were looking for in because they did not want to find an. It was not until the fbi created it was just the blakeman conflict of interest that when whitey took off the fbi has signed a search for him to the very organized crime squad that he had corrupted. So there were the last people to have a vested interest in finding. And one of the things we show in the book is that it was not until we had some Multiagency Task force and particularly when they brought the u. S. Marshals. That is what they did. They find bad guys. It was until that happens. It was interesting. At some point when they finally did ketchum it was an fbi agent who was not from boston. The deputy u. S. Marshal thats my view. Im a little more opinionated. By the time they did want to find them the chair had gone cold and he was living in a rentcontrolled apartment two blocks from the water in santa monica. One of the most interesting parts about the book to me was how exposed amount interconnected and degraded how theyre sort of. And i wondered how learning about that and studying at, how you would how that would affect the way you few contemporary things in america. Im a reporter and hes a columnist. This is a story about institutional corruption. All institutions are capable of corruption. The problem with the fbi is that nobody said rolls. I think the fbi was founded in the image of one of the most corrupt Public Officials in the history of this republic and thats j. Edgar hoover. So to this day the fbi insists on interviewing if they wanted to interview me is a okay, show but disappointed time. Want to bring a tape recorder. Its gonna be to agents, one asking questions and writing. Its your word against theirs. That to me is corrupt. The reality is everybody in washington is afraid of those guys, nothing ever changes. To this day i think the fbi needs a huge institutional anima , and theyre not going to get it because everybody in washington is very deferential to them. There were some heroes. There were in this whole saga. They really worked hard to find an. I do think that i dont want to leave it that we did not think there were people did too good work here. Yeah. My moms cousins worked for whitey. What surnamed . His name is david ryan. He held up an armored truck, and it got caught. Then he went into with this protection and tennessee. He was an informant. Was a . He was the informant. It tried to protect them by saying he got jammed out. We have to talk. I covered this case. The genealogist in the family i have a lot of material that i can send you. You know, i know hes gone. The question i had, one of the stories i heard the mile was wondered if this was an urban legend or the truth about how whitey and his men would attack the rose lawyers cool and there would be raped. It sounds kind of urban legend. If you read there is a book that was written that was largely exaggerated. That story, he was on the run. That really creepy thing with Jack Nicholson staring at the end, what he likes young girls he was a womanizer. Even though there were two primary women in his life, one that he was with for like 30 years it was a womanizer. We never found anything to support, you know, unless steps toward rape, and think he had 15 a 60 year olds. He was not a guy never guess that someone off the street. Was a guy who would buy the family with money. But a triple decker for the crows mother. How was he finally captured . It was a great story. It is something that talk about the trip being stranger than fiction 1974, though old miser commercial taken off, to get all of. She was one of the bonds in the commercial. She lived across the street and iceland, the people, saying california, for months at a time so she from of the time was live across the street from them in santa monica. It was a strike at that gown and captured. His girlfriend kathy who was living with them, loved animals. She would feed stray cats from the neighborhood. And she knows this and stop what a lovely woman and became friendly with them. But she did not much like whitey who was very opinionated and a little bit nasty sometimes. It would talk politics and he was opinionated about what he believed. So then made an impression. Shes sitting around in a house in reykjavik and sees the fbi launched a new campaign to find him. Very much or relatives. And so there were having trouble finding him. It really focused on her. It launched a campaign within the Public Service announcements have you seen these people . Iran in the daytime television. Cnn wrote and a segment on the new campaign. Sitting in reykjavik commissions on recognize them. Neighbors in santa monica. She called the fbi. They sent a couple of agents out who it to be the manager of the apartment who also lived in the apartment next to them and showed in the photo. He was like, oh, my god. Those are my neighbors. Are you sure . Yes. Will you go knock on the door and more and out . No. On not not gonna start. He later complained, cat can be captured. Make that up. It just goes on and on. One of the things that your book beautifully captures. We live in the the boston area for around 20 years. I was always interested in the fact that he was never tainted with anything that you ever heard or read about his brother. Added that happened . Much of the difference that was shown. In south boston almost every family would have what you call black sheep. When they have to remember, there was not much in the Public Domain about whitey. It was all whispers. I remember as a kid in my teens. In us was to talk about them. The other thing, i did more stuff after. We knew him as an enabling. He invested so much time and political influence and genuine love. He cared about his brother. It is the does. Got him out of prison early. Twenty years sentence for bank robbery began after nine. He really believed he was going to go straight. When what he didnt he was an ally of the nile. The other thing was to have to understand, and all those taught to 30 years is getting higher. A Transit Authority is called the envy al qaeda. Not for nothing. Mr. Bolgers Transit Authority. He get peoples jobs in that point to go down and say hes a scumbag. That is valid works. People dont do that. They dont point fingers. Your cousin is a bank robber. You know, his cousin might be a bank robber. You always say in those families, you know, everybody has one of two cousins a mile, my god, there he goes. As part of it. Where is he now . He still visits the well, when whitey was in jail he continued to visit. We think it was really that he did not want to deal with the media gauntlet. It was very highly publicized. His children, though. Is he still the head of the umass system . No. He was forced to resign that job but for mitt romney was a president ial candidate he was governor of massachusetts. He actually pressured billy to resign. It was after we had read the story. Whether he had any contact with them. Someone needs to me testimony that showed, yes, in fact, while he was president of the Massachusetts Senate there was a prearranged phone call worry called his brother saying what should i do. And billy said that he did not think it would be in his best interest to do so. That didnt go well. People felt that he had his allegiance to his brother. Some people would say, hey, thats his brother. It was his job to condemn them. I think people felt like he was questioned in front of a Congressional Committee in 2003 about this and what he knew and when he knew it. Billy was very articulate and bright came across as very evasive. A lot of pressure for him to resign his job. Okay. Are there more Whitey Bulger out there today . Has organized crime in this country change of the last five viejo is . Ill take the second part first. The mafia is a shell of what used to be. Basically all i have a sports booking, new yorks and extortion. In boston its almost pathetic and what they are. In the organized crime, i was said that we dont recognize. Different ethnic groups that dont have long histories in the country. Generally targeting their own people. The authorities dont have the Language Skills to get in there. Soda like the black and became the mafia, you could not infiltrate that in the teens and early 20s. Im sorry, the first part of that question. Are there more . We actually wrote. There was a guy who was a mafia guy. He was protected by the fbi. The way i know about the Massachusetts State Police to do some of the best work going after whitey, they were trying to target this guy, his name was mark rossetti. Before they launch the investigation and put the but the man they called on fbi supervisors and said, listen, where is the . Were going after rossetti and we believe user guide, year informant. No, no, hes not our guy. Okay. Just want to give you a heads up the first conversation when they turn on the phone is markers city talking to a his fbi handlers. Saying. I think the state police are coming after me. You have tell me. They finally do make the case of an. The law cannot. Hes doing 12 years for all sorts of crimes. So that fbi supervisor who had been given a heads up calls the state couple 19 says, that was a great patchy guys made. You want to rolling together to make row and, where to put him in prison. I try to use him as an informant. Just because you guys did. He says the state copses you do know hes killed six people. The fbi guess is, well, we know will be one. [laughter] so i dont think it can ever be on the scale and i dont want to just blame the fbi. They arent the only Law Enforcement agency. You have to do. But the problem is who supervises. After the Whitey Bulger thing cannot they said this will never happen again. There will always be an assistant u. S. Attorney check out these informants. Called the u. S. Attorney has said who was checking on markers that . We cant tell you. And congressman like steve lunch, Chuck Grassley for my look, theyve been trying to get answers. The fbi just wont tell them. They dont have to. We look toward the reading in next book on the next major criminal figure. Immediately following the authors of the autographing books of fabulous book. Available in assigning area. Last but not least if youre enjoying the festival please become a friend of the festival. Your taxdeductible donation allows us to offer flexible programming free of charge to the public and literacy programs in the community. You may learn more at the mall or on line and our website. Thank you very much. [applause] thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] and now from the 2014 tucson festival books a panel on politics. Something that is growing year after year. Thank you all for being here. My name is andre attorney, president s, formerly the chair of the democratic party. And we have a few democrats out there. [applause] did the we do well in this demographic. I would like to think this city of tucson which is the sponsor of this venue. Thank the companys who are sponsoring this session. We are going to go about an hour three fantastic guests, as you well know and spend a little bit of time within conversation in an open up all of you as well. I know you have already heard the announcement, but with respect to the audience and, of course to all of our friends around the country on cspan watching shivering in the cold summer and wishing there were here please ounces of funds. Let me introduce our three authors until you a little bit about their books. The end of this table, dan balz, author of collision 2012, obama verses romney in the future of elections in america. He is the chief correspondent of the washington post, has been covering president ial campaigns for a few years. He told me his First Convention that he covered was in 1968. So he is he has seen it all and is really not all that the dean of american political journalists but one of the most respected voices out there both in terms of this regular reporting as well as his deep analysis. Next to him, john nichols, one of the great voices in american politics, someone who then is to sort out their charging away at inequities and injustices in our country, author of how the money and media elections complex is destroying america. He will be talking a lot more about exactly what that all means. And next to me, john schwarz, Professor Emeritus at a school that some of you have heard of, university of arizona. It is good to have the hometown crowd on this side. Author of six books and one of our leading voices in rethinking permissivism for the 21st century. His most recent book is the common credo to american success. So please give a nice welcome. [applause] fuss to let me start with dan. Uni were here four years ago talking about your previous book , the 2008 campaign. That campaign was one with some really incredible personalities, barack obama, hillary clinton, john mccain, our home state senator, sarah palin. And it was one that think a lot of people came out from my standpoint inspired and excited about. My sense is that 2012, no matter what you thought of the outcome was a different kind of campaign, one that was in many ways a lot more dispiriting, lots of a lot emptier in terms of the content that 2008 had been on all sides. But you chose this subtitle, obama verses from the in the future of elections in america. Tell us and which way you believe that this campaign in 2012 really does point to the future of what american politics is all about . Thats a great question. It was an issue that i wrestled with. Hows that . Better . Sorry about that. What i was saying was it is a very good question. I wrestled with it was just in terms of putting together a subtitle for the book but as i was thinking about this whole project. I mean, youre right. The campaign was one that i think certainly at the time and even now people look back on as a special moment in american politics. History mk