Twitter, netflix. Pretty much all the major apz or websites you are visiting are our members. Host do they have shared concerns in washington . Guest absolutely. The internet economy is incredibly important and that is what ties our members together. Everything from Net Neutrality which we will talk about to trade policy to soy many other issues. There is very much alignment and that is what we work on. Host how did you get active in this area . Guest worked on the hill for 12 years and i was fortunate in 2012 when the companies came together and wanted to start this association there a lot of tech associations and tech is hard including hardware, software and other technologies. We are just Internet Companies so we started the association with 1014 members and represent 40 companies today. Host and you used to work for energy and commerce chairman ed upton. Does he agree with you and the Internet Association on Net Neutrality . Guest i dont work for the chairman anymore so i cannot speak for him. I do think there is bipartisan agreement from republicans on energy and commerce and Senate Commerce on both sides of the aisle. They agree i think on the end result but there is disagreement on how you get there. I am happy that everybody agrees there should be a flee and open internet and we can debate the pathway. There is bipartisan agreement on the end result, i believe. Host how would fcc chairman ajit pais proposal to change the Net Neutrality principles or rules affect facebook, dropbox, and amazon . Guest we will have to see what he does. We are strong supporters of the existing rules on the book and think they are working for consumers which is the most important thing. The reason the rules are there is for consumers, we support the existing rules, we are concerned if they change them, it will weaken those protections and allow the Service Providers to be gatekeepers and that is really what the problem would be. Host title two is the path that you support . Guest so title ii is just the jurisdiction. Our support is based on the rules that fall under title ii and the end result that creates. Host joining our conversation this week is Margaret Harding mcgill of politico. Thank you for having me. I want to pick up on conversations of Net Neutrality. What do you think the appetite is like among your members for another Net Neutrality fight . Guest when you say a while, it really has been a while since 2005, really. You think in terms of, i think actual years that is a long time. In washington years that is a long time but in the internet years it is an eternity. You think about how much the internet changed over the last three to four years which has been a lot. You think your members are prepared to step up and say these are the rules we want and are in to keep them . We are in it to win it. We are a Consensus Base organization and members drive the agenda and this is a really high priority for us and we are putting a lot of time into this because it matters to our members and customers. You had a meeting with chairman pai about this topic before he unveiled his proposal. Was he receptive to your concerns . Do you think you made progress in that meeting . Guest i hope we made progress. We will have to see how it turns out based on the conversation and thinks he said in public he agrees there should be protections and we should have open internet but we disagree on how you get there. Host mr. Beckerman, were there problems to the wheeler, fcc putting title ii into this equation . When you look back at the history, we started out in 2005 with principles that were not enforceable. In 2007, and lets remember where the internet was, facebook in infancy. No uber or area 51 airbnb. The iphone was just coming out. 2007, there is a complaint against comcast from the fcc that went to court. The Court Reversed it, struck it down, because they said the fcc rules were principles and not enforceable which led us to 2010 which was the first real Net Neutrality rules. Those were under title i. They didnt include mobile. Those rules were good at the time, i think. Verizon contested it in court and verizon was successful in court. Those rules were struck down not because the fcc shouldnt be able to do that they just said they did it in the wrong way. That led to the 2015 rules under title ii that included the internet. 2015, they did want to include mobile in the rules. Title ii piece is a jurisdiction used on the court but the kinds of rules under that is what we are fighting for and need to make sure are maintained. Host does this put the the onius on congress . Guest that is a jurisdiction that Congress Gave to the fcc. Ultimately congress can write the laws or do a number of things that would be sustainable. Our thought is the fcc got it right. Nothing is a guarantee in congress. It is a very long process going through two chambers and the rules are fine. Not broke. Dont try to fix it. And we will try to maintain those rules of the fcc. One of the things that you focused on in your meeting with the chairman on Net Neutrality was interconnection. This concern about it being used as a choke point to slow traffic. If i understand correctly, looks like the fcc is proposing to remove the agencys authority over internet traffic exchange. Can you explain why that might be a problem for your members . Guest at the end of the day it is about the consumer. You are looking to access the internet and pay your provider and you want access to the entire internet. If a site is blocked or slowed down as a consumer you dont know where that is happening in the process. The point of interconnection to you as you are accessing your internet and you dont know. All of that should be included to protect the consumer and their ability to access the entire internet. One of the other kind of getting into the weeds on the policy a bit is there is a discussion on the paid priortization. I think the proposal asks if we allow this could internet Service Providers use that extra money to offer cheaper broadbrand to end users. Why might you disagree with that . If you are allowing for the fast lanes it means by default you have slow lanes. The internet has worked so well because there is a pure competition where entry for a website or app is low. You hear facebook being started into dorm room or amazon being started in a garage and that is still happening and that is because the barrier energy is low, you are not able to pick winners and losers and the Consumer Picks best and not the companies that can pay for fast lanes thore isp deciding what is fast and slow deciding that. Some of the companies you mentioned are well established. Netflix was like the poster child for Net Neutrality but i believe they have said if they weaken the rules we think we will be okay because we are so poplar. Who among the Tech Companies might be the next affected . I think that is the wrong way to look at it. I give Companies Credit for car carrying about this issue because it is about what makes the internet ecosystem great. Your Companies Care more about the customers and users than any other industry and that is because competition is a click away. Love the shows on netflix but if i want to watch terrific programming on Amazon Prime Video you can do that. There is nothing stopping you from switching back show to show. If the three of us want to start our own video programming online tomorrow we can do that. I think that is what it is really about and having the Customer Experience be great online is why your Companies Care about it and why we are fighting. Host it is a Protection System when you put things under title ii . Guest i think it is more about what the rules are. You mention paid private and chairman pai could keep it under title ii but keep it pr privatization. In our view it is not true Net Neutrality protections people want and we would not support that even though they would say we have title ii. Host do you think at t should be allowed to not charge its customers data caps or give a discount on direct tv . On the data tap question deis very complicated in a sense we dont think it should be set artificially low or set in a way that is trying to create a price that is not accurate in the market or create artificial scarcity which is sometimes happening. As it relates to prioritizing content that is a problem and something we are concerned about where you are giving priority to their content over others in some of programs because they are creating scarcity in the amount of data consumers have. I think it runs into a problem when people say i am getting free data. It seems like it is difficult to say guest you are paying for it. Nothing is free. There needs to be transparency on what that is and this conversation comes around when you look at the zero rating program. Zero rating is not bad. Whatever is best for the consumer is great. It is not necessarily free you are paying for at t and your isp connection. It is like free but no, you are paying for it. There is good versions and bad versions of that. A good version might be something that tmobile has done where all of the same class of content doesnt count against the cap. Music, for example. Meaning if you are spotify, pandora, amazon music or any Music Service you can automatically be in that program. Or again if the three of us decided to create a Music Streaming Service the next day we could be on there. No bare to entry, everybody is free to access in an equal way. A bad way would be a paid privatization where they give one price to the direct tv contingency content and another price to the spotify. The way you view the rules is creating a level Playing Field for everyone and changes in 2008 some companies were favored over others. Chairman pai talked about if you change the jurisdiction and go back to title i then the federal trade commission would have authority over broadband providers and that could be good for policing privacy practices. What do you think about the ftc becoming the Net Neutrality enforcer . Guest the ftc is a Great Organization i have respect for but they are not the subject matter in this. The ftc has zero engineers working there. You wouldnt move drug approval from the fda to the ftc why . Because the scientists and doctors are at the fda and same thing here. The experts are at the fcc and we think it should stay there. Host mr. Beckerman, we talked about how the world changed in the last 1520 years because of the internet. Is is it time for a co comprehensive telecom bill . Guest perhaps. I think the challenge is those things take a long time to do and you want to futureproof it and not pick winners and losers but this is an issue always getting in the way. Hopefully we can settle this and have rules that are sustainable and get it out of politics and then we can look at the rewrite of the telecommunication act. Host what other issues do you focus on besides Net Neutrality . Guest anything that impacts the internet economy. One of the great things about our companies is this is a great export. It has been a priority for the administration creating jobs and our company as an industry is one where 80 of the value and jobs created in the United States but 80 of the users are around the world. This is something we are exploiting. We care about trade and when you look at the trade deals like nafta and previous deals the internet was a part of that. Digital commerce wasnt part of the conversation in the 90s and those could be updated. We care about access to market issues, uber, lyft and airbnb and home away members. We make sure they are able to compete and get into markets across the country. Host all of these companies you named have washington offices. Guest not all. We have 40 companies and some have washington offices and some dont. Host what is the relationship between washington and silicone valley . Do they understand each other . Guest we are getting there. It has changed a lot even in the five years we have been around as an organization. There is a recognition of Internet Companies in silicone valley to stay live and the decisions made in the capital, washington d. C. , and state capitals even matter to our companies and their ability to grow and provide Great Services and create jobs and grow our economy. We run into, in some cases, laws that have been on the books since the 1970s or 1980s that didnt anticipate the companies and internets. Certainly in the last few years there has been a recognition it is important to make sure artistry is understood and we have a voice in washington around the country. Given the change in administration, how would you say your Member Companies changed engagement in washington with trump in the white house . Guest it is interesting to look at. One, i view our issues as bipartisan. We go back and forth on that and there is something for republicans and democrats all to love based on what companies are doing. The difference is a lot of members and you think about how qui quickly the industry has grown and have been around during the previous president. President obama, most of the countries only new president obama. We have a new president and we will work with the Trump Administration in the same way we did with the Obama Administration and we will have another administration after that and after that. And you know, our companies can work with everybody. Issues on immigration where Tech Companies came up strongly against the administrations policies. How does that kind of effect building relationships and finding Common Ground . Guest and we should just like in the Obama Administration when there were issues we disagreed with them on our companies were vocal in disagreements to make sure they were heard and when there are issues you agree on you work together. Same is true of the Trump Administration. Early on that executive order you are talking about our companies are vocal in their opposition which is great and they should be. That is what your democracy is all about. And areas of Common Ground on trade and other shou issues we will be at the table working with them. What are other areas you think you can find Common Ground . Maybe tax reform . Guest tax reform is an important one. Trade, i wouldnt minimize the importance of that. It is key issue. Our Companies Work best in a light touch Regulatory Environment which this administration supports and i think they are open to that. Any issue with an easing on mergers . We try to stay out of of those merger issues. You have to look at each one individually. It is very different when you look at industries that are consolidaco consolida consolida consolidated. All our Companies Compete with each other incredibly every single day which is great and as a result i think the experience for all of us is better because everybody wants to have the best possible product and you can click and click back and forth and the Companies Know that and it is different when you look at the edge side versus industry. Is this an us versus them issue for you guys . Guest i dont think of it like that. The thing is that investment from isp has gone up over the last few years even since the title twowheeler Net Neutrality rules. Increases in investments. And the reason that is happening is our companies are innovating content. On the other side the reason you have hd video and great things online is because the isp is investing and building up the networks. The better their services are and the better they are building up networks and people are getting online faster that is great for us and the better our companies are able to innovate, compete and come out with new websites and apps the more people want to sign up for highspeed internet. You would never have the plan on the phone you have without website access. They go back and forth and i dont see us verse them. The investment issue has come up and chairman pai says he thinks the rules depressed investment. Sounds hilike you disagree with that. Are you doing your own economic studies . I think chairman pai is terrific and i like him but he happens to be wrong in this case. They looked at marginal increase compared to completely unrelated industries. They looked at the classic industry and were comparing that as a marginal increase compared to telecom. Like that is, in our opinion, and our econo were saying that is wrong. The percentage has gone up. Even if you look at, so if you want to do the apples to apples comparison, you say have these rules we have had stifled innovation in the United States and investment and you would compare to oecd countries who have not had this in the same industry. We looked at that and our industries under the rules increased investment compared to countries without the rules who have not. We are putting out numbers and i think the fcc got the numbers wrong. You have your own economist and see this as being a key part of the fight going forward. It is important. Our companies are new to ingen e engaging in trade associations in washington compared to isps who have been around for decades. We have our own chief econo mist and will make the facts. Phl should facebook and others be treated the same when the comes to privacy issues . Privacy is different. After the cra that passed the house the isps are a little bit in a vacuum where the ftc is in washington for privacy and our companies are covered under the ftc and we think the ftc does a good job but there are differences in the isp which are, you know, the tubes, lets say. That is the seven lane highways versus companies where you log on to the sites and have visibility. We think the ftc is a great way for the way privacy should be modeled. Should the isps be covered in the same way . We think so. They are not covered at all which is a problem. A lot of people have been upset. We tried to get involved in that cra debate. We have not trying to have a different level of regulation for another industry but the ftc model works well. What is going on on the state level . Since the cra vote the numbers have picked up but over 15 states are looking at new privacy rules which again could be problematic for a lot of companies to have a pathwork of regulations in multiply states and the federal regulations obviously and our companies, the ftc has done a great job and our countries care so much about privacy because everything is about the user. If you are not happy with the way an internet site is handling privacy you can and stop using it right away. Our Companies Pay a lot of attention to this important issue. In the privacy fight, there was discussion saying isp are subject to stricter rules saying web browsing history is determined as sensitive. Instead of lowering the standards why dont we raise the ftc standards regardless of what is in the mist history. You dont support that . No, leave them the way they are. The issues we have is the isp is not being covered. We think the ftc model is great and working well and that is what it should be. Host michael beckerman, a National Commission was proposed to protect the internet and say it as a national interest. What do you think of this proposal . Guest i havent read the proposal. I would want to read through more. But did he make suggestions on who is on it . Host nonpartisan. Guest again, i would want to look at the proposal. The internet is a national treasure. It is an international treasure. When you look at the industry that has been built in the United States and the companies that are u. S. Based companies they are reaching global audiences. There are more Internet Users than outside the United States than inside the United States which an opportunity for the economy and jobs in the United States but also the rules and regulations we have had here is a reason why all these companies have come up in the United States and not in other places around the world. That is something we need take a hard look at to make sure we maintain the Current Companies that we have growing and the next generation of companies and innovators coming about are here. It sounds like there is some positions that are yet to be filled in the office of science and technology policy. How do you think that affects the administrations relationship with tech . Guest i can tell you i know a number of people there currently and they are excellent and understand our industry as many came from the industry and thoughtful and we will work closely with them. As they higher up that is great and i think we have a Good Relationship with the folks and it is an important office. You think they will hire up . Yeah, we are only what . 10 102103 days. There are lots of positions within the government that has to be filled. That office is one of them and i know they are looking for good people and encouraging people to actually, i know it is hard but we leave the grade jobs you have at Internet Companies to go and serve in government is really important and we are encouraging people to do that. The white house announced something called the American Technology council this week and it is focused on modernizing government technology. What opportunities to do you see for Tech Companies . That is another Great Initiative the white house is doing that we will participate in. If the government isnt operated like a tech company, it is slower and areas that need to be updated for example procurement issues on cloud. The government should be updated