Abraham lincoln, is bracketed by arguably the least successful american president s. This Holiday Weekend on cspan. Next, interior secretary ryan zinke discusses the rules of war in the modern world at an event that compared how the war was for portrayed in shakespeares work and how its executed today. Hosted by the Shakespeare Theater Company here in washington, this is 90 minutes. Good evening. My name is karen spence, director of the Shakespeare Theater Company. Thank you for joining us. [applause] thank you so much for joining us for tonights Bard Association shakespeare discussion. Tonights discussion is shakespeare and the rules of war, from athens to aleppo. I want to remind everyone to silence all your Electronic Devices and to let you know that video and photography of this discussion is prohibited but at this point it is an honor to introduce tonights moderator, stephen m ryan. He is a member of our board of trustees as well as the association and has chaired our annual fundraiser for many years. He is the head of Government Strategy practice groups at mcdermott will and emery and previously served as the general counsel to the Us Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs alongside the honorable john glenn. In his position he has served as Deputy Council of the president s mission on organized crime directing investigations against lycos on the truck and other criminals during the reagan administration. As part of his pro bono work he has represented operation hope, a Financial Literacy group for the past decade so it is my honor to welcome stephen ryan. [applause] thank you very much. Its really a pleasure and an honor tonight to bring this group of speakers to you. And youre going to have a great evening tonight and its part of our classical theater that we tried to unite Current Events like thinking about the rules of war with the ideas that shakespeare expressed in this play so thank you again for everybody for being part of our group. Tonight, the first panelist id like to introduce is my favorite author, bernard cornwall. [applause] what you say about the guy whos written 60 books, has sold 30 billion copies and is your favorite author . You tell people that if you havent read about richard start and the napoleonic wars, and you havent seen his play by sean being you havent done a year yet. Bernard began in the tv business. At the bbc. And is his book then turned into some of the most notable productions. He was denied a green card and grant 30 to the United States. But since then he has spent a good deal of time with us and one of the most successful and loved authors. The stories are really primarily about english history and his current series, the last king was just a delight and in our family we fight over the book and who gets to read it first. And you will hopefully have seen that on the bbc television. The importantly, to our work here at the theater, Mister Cornwall is continuing to write and is currently writing a book about the first production of shakespeares midsummer nights dream and im sure we will work that in tonight notwithstanding that is not about war. So all right, thank you for being here. [applause] our next guest is doctor Dale Meyerrose who we should call general meyerrose because he was a general for decades the before he became theatrical. [applause] so general meyerrose, he was the president s first Senate Confirmed associate director of national intelligence. The intelligence communitys chief Information Officer and information sharing executive for the director of national intelligence. Thats actually what his title is. And hes the sports group, he has a leaders uniform to become part of the white house staff. Hes also internationally respected as an expert on leadership, strategy, cyber security, paul madisons intelligence and military mallards. While on active duty and 9 11. General meyerrose was under the command of the airspace over north america. So hes the first of two actual warriors who are going to put on here in a minute. He also served as chief Information Officer of three Major Us Air Force commands and three unified us military commands. At one point he controlled all the satellites in orbit area. Some of which we cant talk about. He became the first chief of Information Officer, to sort of get the pattern of this. In desert storm, in the other wars of the United States is thought hes had Actual Experience with the decisions about who to target, what the package looks like, how to justify it and how to think about it and so were really uniquely pleased to have general Dale Meyerrose with us tonight. [applause] you mentioned he has a phd . So now, on the artistic side of this group, we have the real pleasure to introduce to you one of the hottest young directors, liesel tommy. [applause] one of the great things about this theater for michael con is because michael con, we gave him the gig of running a classical play in new york at a young age. He does the same thing picking out the hottest young directors and bringing them in to work on classical plays so liesel is going to be directing macbeth which opens here on may 1. I asked her for permission to knock off the scottish play and all that. She said no, you can go down to the theater. Liesel was born and raised in south africa during the apartheid era. And i think that experience obviously is something shes going to reflect on today. Her family moved to massachusetts when she was 15. She received her mfa from an unknown college around the university and the trinity repertory company. This tommy has directed theater all over the United States and shes, not just for classic plays but for bringing out the personal experience of people to life. She believes theater should be meaningful and dont we all. And be able to change an audience and so one of her latest productions, eclipse is written by dan idea, i may not have said it right, tells the story of the five liberian women who tried to bond toward the end of the second liberian war. This production actually became the first ever allfemale cast a play written and directed by a female to premiere on broadway so im going to pause for applause on that. [applause] last summer, miss tommy made history as the first woman of color to add a tony award nomination for best director for her nomination of eclipse. Shes now in reversal for a play and her conception of shakespeares macbeth, were going to talk a little bit about it tonight. You have got to come see it. Anyway, thank you very much for taking up some overtime. [applause] you know, this was the far side of town but here comes the big stuff. Ive had the honorable ryan zinke, secretary of the interior. [applause] so heres Teddy Roosevelts successor as the owner of the public branch. This man controls 1 5 of the landmass of the United States and he has a property that he controls around 10 or 12 times. Usually serves as a member of the house of representatives and indeed will on the hill which is our production of members of congress back on stage. We have the pictures of that. He comes from a very famous Literary School but is in underwater demolitions and became a seal. There are many books coming out of that war and he has a terrific book that im going to recommend in a moment. He was a navy seal for over 20 years. X he deployed andcarried out the missions. [applause] of our country and he directed the training of the seals and he trained the man who killed osama bin laden. Carried out all of the things that were necessary to protect the folks, ryan zinke not only is a warrior but trained the warriors who still protect us today. And at football, thank you. [applause] at football, he was the center for the oregon ducks, and we were that close. And i have to say some of you were totally improper. Many would advance but he had the best of the package. It was that close. So with that, you have warrior who is now in a cabin for the United States, hes taken the time to be with us and talk about this and i want to say that i want all of you but my all, all 60 of our books, every single one. And i want you, i also want you to buy the sixth book called commander serving a country worth fighting for and training the british soldiers who lead the way and its a terrific book. And in it, before he knew he was going to be secretary of theinterior, he talked about his philosophy of public lands so let me ask you to give areally warm welcome to the secretary that he and the rest of the panel. [applause] because renard is my favorite author, he is my favorite author, we are going to ask him to lead off this discussion about shakespeare and the rules of war at this time and how it relates to ours. I know its going to be entertaining and youre going to love it. Thank you stephen. I have a great deal to say about the rules of war. [laughter] but in one place he does actually mention the rules of war, he called the law of art. And whether the welshman, he said tell me about his attempts onthe battlefield. Its the lord of arms. What ever they bought was the law of arms. He said from this, all the happened is they just killed all their prisoners. An incredibly brutal passage but what has happened was francis gone into the weight. Both, many prisoners had been taken. They were behind the english lines. And suddenly a third line and what henry says is that it was a privilege, not really like that but he would join the battle again and he ordered them killed. And there wasnt anything for llewellyn to complain about. So whatever hes complaining about, he goes right round of the flanks of the english and the invasion of the english camp, they steal all the crown jewels. But all that hes complaining about is that they killed the boy. That is the law of art. And i think that its something thats going to keep coming up. Because how do you indicate those laws, its the nation in lawlessness. We educate our children and then we train them to be killers. This isnt even the half of the civilization, im sure others do. Theres a clear vote way back in the 12th century, they tried to explore what he called malice and homicide. Homicide is not equal to murder. Man aside is killing somebody who is evil. Somebody was evil and somebody who wasnt a christian but thats gone all the way through the laws of war, who was killed and who can they not kill. What shakespeare is saying is you cant kill somebody and not having come come back. This panelist only has one lawyer and hes in washington. I brought reinforcements. What is remarkable the flaw in this. You have more to please anywhere ever met, i bought one with a lot of debris. [laughter] but i had the various first attempt to notify the law and if im wrong, its called the league approach and its drawn up in the United States 1863 and sometimes call the lengthy approach. He immigrated to america and to columbia, caroline and gambia and when he thought of war, he was a 21yearold boy. And the Sergeant Major was a woman. And she had three decorations of bravery, everybody said there terrific. She fought all the way for through the duluth. Even dropped the code of war, which very much is in today, it says you mustnt kill people who are not, you mustnt poison. You mustnt kill the women. And my last connection, i promise i will shut up and im not condoning this in the story. But it is relevant to shakespeare. The british were honoring sergeants. That was guilty of murder, stop with that privilege. And thats the conviction of murder was reached to malaughter, i think its being chaired. Im not condoning what demanded, i dont know the details of it. And im also proud to tell you that his last words were a mate, its time you shuffled off this mortal coil. [laughter] well. [laughter] its true. I told you it would be entertaining. Missed tommy. Hello. So for all kinds of reasons. This is probably my seventh production. Of thats dealt with war. And possibly because i came from an activist bent, through the struggle. Its something that i feel a lot of time in my childhood thinking about and i directed a play called ruins which is the inner combo and what happened during the mac away was in government. The military and two different kinds of soldiers, civilians and minors all in one space and then click the wounded, was a unified women but through it was written, really got the sense of a larger civil war all around you. Ive also done a play in europe which is about talking about war. And the experiences that they had and it just seems to me something that i keep coming back to so when they asked me to direct macbeth, my job as an artist and as a director is to serve analysis, get into the mind of the writer and try to understand how he or she is trying to talk about. And then, think about who my other is and think about two processes, how can i get this story into their lives. So theyre not watching it historically as an experience, but there watching it. It has to be a point, i dont see any purpose in going to sit and watching it feel dated or safe. So after i completed macbeth, i thought i was finishing washington. And i thought that what macbeth was about that i had seen is actually about grief. And grieving for ones country. And that is certainly something i can relate to. There are books written about the country called cry beloved country and the grief is about the same feel about what happened to their country, having a dictator, a tyrant in power and the question of what has to happen to leaders, to citizens to make them take up arms in their own country and fight a civil war. That is the center of this play. And every scene that sort of, every scene of violence is about a father losing a son. Or a mother losing a daughter or a child. And that seems to me from shakespeare is that hes trying to show a personal cost of war. Now, we come from a country that loves to glamorize war. But i took that challenge and i took it very personally. So there are strands in macbeth that are really about what it feels like inside the civil war and what the personal cost of war is and what brief for your country is. Thats it. [applause] in washington by the way you are not allowed to have a member of the cabinet not legal office but ryan zinke is quite a humble man and said he would go third tonight though mister secretary. Its true. My background is as a commander. I thought i was never the best jumper guy but i always was. And i was also commander of special forces in iraq. So my experience is a little different. I dont think we glamorize war, at least not those who fought it. We make a decision to go to war and to solve one. I like many of you are bothered and i dont want my kids ever to go to war unless they can win. And the rules of engagement are first. But i think we elect to our kids as we extend in the age of our country, what is it, we make a decision in war, we go to war to win but in the direct frame, the rules of engagement, i would say you would add one more and this breach of conflict, weve been in battle longer than a period in our nations history by almost 12, but the rules of engagement today are much different. Seals look at brett, noncorrect. The right is where, we engage it. But was a threat is asymmetrical warfare is the first person with a gun. The person with a cell. The person that flying in a mission, the difficult process to sort out. People walk in to their location when its a group of people. Is how do you sort and select. How do you say in this room if you have 29 combatants, and that combatant is hard or not, how you do it . Ultimately, that task comes to country. Thats why we rely on macbeth. It is a judgment call. Because if our rules of engagement wont allow us to strike in basque as, theres been plenty of locations wherethere are individuals who go out. They are engaged in combat. Theres an hd 130 overhead which is a gun in placement. They asked for direct support and that they are engaged in combat and they dont get support. The reason is because someones making a judgment call on whether engaging that a 130 will bleed over into civilian casualties. If the enemy is firing from the building within the building. Are they in fact enemy combatants . But if you werent there and you are being fired upon, and your teammates are getting hit, to not have the equipment available, i can tell you that feels rough. They cant depend on going after them. And all these operations are wellplanned. And the prf which is a Quick Reaction force would go out, they get in trouble, the cavalry will get there or what they have, they have artillery. Whether they go out and get engaged in theenemy, they cannot get a. They are smart, they wont go out. They will turtle up. Or they do go out, they will go out heavy and they cant rely on any other force to render aid. So i will go back to the mac most important part is you got to trust your people. And thats where training comes in. Nobody that i know once wore. Is it because weve been engaged in combat for the longest period in American History and one or two things, dont join the navy. By default. Hes a navy guy, she married a navy seal. Hes a fine young man, hes an ea. He has gone to war at least 12 times. Total. Normal to him is not. Normal him is over there. He has spent more time over there then he has here. How does that affect him . You should try going to the Grocery Store with him. His head will swivel but when these troops are coming back and they were fighting so much for so long, they forget normalcy in society. They become hardened. Their judgment in the place is threat, nonthreat. Thats why we fight over there as it comes to hear. Im glad to be with you and i can tell you that in my experience, it never, ever engage in warfare unless you get the truth of it. Your sons and daughters deserve it. Fortunately, we face the enemy that is determined. That place by no rules we imagine, they burn pilots in a cage alive. This is what we face. So with that, i will sit. Thank you. [applause] you really wanted to see whatit looks like from outer space, asked dale. And could you reflect as an air commander, you are ryans counterpart and someone who shakespeare couldnt have contemplated talk to us about air commander and the decision of a professional soldier like you has better different than things. Just think of me as you say the least for last. And im going to pause before we have a q a. It is, im deeply pleased to be here. What the secretary talked about had a lot to do with seeing eye to eye. But the rules of law, the rules of engagement. Extend to everybody who is in support of a rebel or everybody who is detached and ill give you my concluding remarks, ill give you a real instance about how the rules of engagement can change how we fight and change how we fight even today. 21 years ago. The element of the rules of engagement are not that old. In fact, there are an outgrowth of the korean war. Because the joint chiefs of staff 10 years out said weve got a new framework for trying to connect to combat operations. And the idea of war, world war ii and previous administrations on the idea of limited war, the idea of all kinds of other things in the shadow of the cold war. And so i think its important to realize the basis of the rules of engagement. It got a political, military purpose and they got illegal purpose. They also had to extend all the way to the people i represent down to services to the people that the secretary represents, folks on the ground. And so the rules of engagementare calcified , you may or may not find that hard to believe but a large part of my class time, a lot of them are related to tactics. As in what weapons you can use, what target weapons can beassociated with. To include what we can define as states. Because remember, the purpose of rules of engagement, the political purpose, theres a military purpose and a legal purpose. And every rule of engagement has to extend to those. Another thing thats a little bit different is the sense of 1986 which is that there are standing rules of engagement that exist at all times and apply to all military people whether there engaged in combat or not. You know, often times we think the rules of engagement for people in theater, in southwest asia, involved in this operation or that operation but every military person in service as a set of peacetime standing rules of engagement which i think you might find interesting. They are you can protect, you can use deadly force to protect yourself, your unit and your friendly. You can use deadlyforce to protect enemy. You can use deadly force to protect civilians, noncombatants. As a designated property such as red cross, churches, hospitals. And such. And those permeate all the rules of engagement. That United States military practices. The thing to remember is its not all countries go by the same rules of engagement, not all countries necessarily see the International Rules of law. Most of those rules of law come from the creation of the United Nations in the 1949. And then you hear phrases like love of armed combat. That refers to the United Nations, United Nations. During the q a, i had somebody without looking like your guru and tell me when the last time the United States declared war. But so the elements of rules of engagement are very important. And they end up becoming a bible that every military person has in combat. Ill run through it quickly. One of my early times and early engagements, you will see how complicated it can get and again, thank political, military and leaders. And so this has to do with the balkans. Late 1996. And we are looking to introduce for the first time in large scale combat operations, the nickname of the girl at the time was the predator in the United States air force, about to retire last predator a month or so. To be replaced with a new drone. In the air force, you dont want to call it a drone, its a remotely piloted vehicle. And so we were deployed under a court for the nato flag. And so we are introducing a different weapons platform. It wasnt going to carry a bomb or a bullet, it was going to carry a camera. But we first had to go through the elements of making sure that the rules of engagement could be adjusted under nato rules to allow for a platform that had never been deployed. So again, think of those three elements of political, military. So after we go through that, we still cant get it deployed because we are looking at basement added and weve exceeded the number of troops the treaty says we can have stationed in italy at any one time. So we got the task of figuring out how to deploy drones in combat without having people either operating or looking at the intelligence or potentially even today pull the trigger. Not stationed in court. So think of the treaty implications that we had to do to catch satellite back air force base, deal air force base is in central california. So one of the first times, we are actually executing combat operations from california, over the baltics. But that still didnt trigger all the rules of engagement. Because then, theres the elements of what are we allowed to share of a platform and what troops can support and cant be us only, does it have to be usled, and so the business about legality and that. And again, remember nato doesnt necessarily have the parameters of rules of engagement, the United States does. At the time, they had 16 individual countries. So the rules of engagement said in deference is become the bible of conduct of combat operations. And i look forward to your questions. What did you all read today . Lets talk about richard start and the characters that youve created. And their sense of the rules of war. Would those people recognize ryan zinke . Your characters have to show yourself through the pavement. Ive been director to be on the winning side. The event in the United States news attacking the world war, they tried to walk them. Thats what he said, i dont think he wrote it. When it comes to shop, there were rules of engagement. In the sense that obviously you obviously wouldnt shoot at the french. Thats not shooting when they are prisoners. Hes an incredibly clever man, what is the last thing you want when you are about to invade . The french peasantry rise up against him and the way the spanish and portuguese conducted during the war, what the french had done is the french accused the countryside of sparing their lives, they killed animals, they treated the population incredibly badly. They turned them into enemies. But this was not happening in trouble, one thing you had to do was you had to rise and visit what you got from the village. The french peasants didnt trust english money or any other money. The only thing they trusted was french money. And the duke was a clever man. Hed been to northern in the army and he said i want every convicted forger in the racks to report next week. All these men turned up. And he gave them a whole lot of english and spanish money and said turn it into french money. And the french did not date against this and he did not suffer during the war and hes rich. But this is very simple compared to the problems of youth. Which is far more complicated. Let me talk about the problem of civilian life. In the qatar rebellion going back to Medieval Times it was acrusade. It was led by simon thomas forward and it went through the Cardinal Elway and he said that every qatar be killed, men, women, children. It was brutal and horrible. They all had to examine the. Needs but finally he turned to them and said were just slaughtering the whole towns, whole villages and they had some christians along with some heretics and we cant sort them out in the cardinal said no, kill them all, god wont know the difference. Thats actually very good theology. You have a christian, you know why you should play them. But we know its wrong. Its horrible. It is 16th century, the english went through france and french wouldnt come out onthe side. But he went up and have to destroy all the victories so they pulled down the tom and destroyed the vineyards. Anything, there was so much economic damage, poisoning the wellthat would bring an army out. So that the distinction i made earlier with shakespeare. That if you forget the law , that you kill those brought back but not to reach around them. And the certain thing in law, there was a terrible court in the second rule of law, we have areas of children coming from. I think its splendid that you have rules of engagement. After all, what do we fight for . We dont fight for our country, we are fighting for a civilization. Fighting for a way of life. Were fighting for the rule of law. And if we dont fight for the rule of law, we are barbarians. We when you see what i can do. , for a wind catcher. That is why were fighting. Were fighting against not just, not fighting against religion, not fighting against the country, were fighting for civilization and the rule of law so we have to be more civilized in the way we fight. Its a terrible burden but its true, we actually fight with rules and with our lives out of boredom and then we add lawyers. Okay bernard, thank you. Liesel, how do you as a director bring the arts to address the death and the loss that you talk about in your conception of macbeth which i thought was very important and i had heard you say that. I thought it was quite interesting. What role can the arts play in an era of this kind of complexity where you have someone killing civilians with serum gas, where you have people who cant be trusted with Nuclear Weapons obtaining them. How does the arts fit into this. What do you say to the world that is gone crazy. Its a question because its a time like this that arts always ask themselves why am i an artist . In a society in crisis, at this kind of time. But audiences continue to talk about these needs, to look at stories about their lives and about our society and i think when people cant make sense of whats happening in our world, it becomes essential. And, you have to for me, its really about looking at the Big Questions of the moment like shakespeare did and trying to tease out the things that will help people in this moment make sense of their lives and make sense of the chaos again. You know, when i was putting together the ideas or macbeth, one of the things i had to do as a director is personalized. So one of the Big Questions of the show was what do we do in contemporary, i wasnt ready to appear, sorry. Theres no note. You know, what are the issues today . Someone who was referring here as a general about our saying, and he suggested they should be kings. The power of suggestion, that ambitious, and rightly weak leader, who had come back so i kept coming back to the question of magic and that power of suggestion and changing the course of the country future. Coming out of the civil war and macbeth and finding peace and then starting another civil war. Up our work. But what i all ways do is apprise my own person who is from continental africa. And in my experience, usually theres a western counterpart that wants us to stop. Our diamond, our coal pen, our oil. And that will help them get that stuff. But its real. Ive traveled all over the continent of africa for work and for other reasons. And this is a thing that never stops, corporations needing access to resources. Access of the citizens of that proof. So as i reached the production of macbeth together, i placed it in north africa. With libya became a central focus for us. And the women became representations of foreign oil. Because that is the crux for influencing military leaders, that was the human ambition. And as we put the book together, we hired a consultant from the violence and war so something really interesting came out and we built production around that. But what was also part of this is because war is, you have a soldier, highly trained soldiers. Theres so many Different Levels of discipline and brutality going on in our present life. And i was interested in finding ways to talk about all the elements of that and macbeth created an opportunity for that. Imnot , even though that description sounds force, im interested in complicity and im interested in showing, because there are no good sides and there are no bad sides. Theres only the motive area crushing every actor on my stage, we have to talk about their character so that they can connect and show you all the aspects of them. We have to reach every Single Person with compassion. Because thats how we get to complexity. So you know, this question is we live in a world full of chaos and for the couple hours you come to the theater or watch a film or read a book, you can potentially track a person or a few people through the beginning, middle and end of that story and feel maybe a little bitof order. The life were living in right now, just some kind of perspective and perhaps help you cope again. Ryan zinke, you trained the man who killed osama bin laden, and many of the other seals around that team. Would you talk about how the laws of war impacted that mission and what your thoughts are on that . A lot of it has changed. Is it the individual on the ground or the helicopter or the commander or all the way back . Your perspective from a person who has been there, when you are on the ground taking fire its a little different than when youre in the white house in the situation room. Then you get the call and you have a vehicle coming at a high rate of speed. Are you going to engage or not. Whos making the call. When do you engage . In the case of some recent activity was we know theyre bad, how bad are they. When are you going to issue . Is that when our kids are out there, when they should it up and we can shoot at them . From the ground perspective, thats too late. The other thing is, whats changed is electronic eavesdropping. They been doing it a lot. The ability to eavesdrop and on who and who makes the call . Is it englishspeaking . For a while, we only looked at foreign websites an in Foreign Languages because if you are englishspeaking it could be an american. 90 of the world speaks on platforms that are english based. Most people have a cell phone in here. Most people have a smart phone. You might be amazed at how those could be related. Youre taking a picture, how do you know the picture gets captured in your camera. How do you know the picture, when youre looking at it doesnt have the ability to be transmitted in the airways so people can look at not only you but we are taking a picture of. The ability in the control of it is what has changed. Those are societal questions that we have to ask. At what point are we going to mitigate risks. At what point is it going to prevail. Who will make the call . What checks and balances are there . Rob oneil was watching. It was carefully orchestrated. The commander, it was nearly flawlessly executed but they had trained over and over and over again and they sent the nations best, if not one of our nations best forces. That had not only strategic implications but it also had National Implications not only for us getting them but also a signal that we are willing to take risks. The target is important. Again, i think the point of this session is our ability to watch things is not free and it has consequences. In my opinion, the checks and balances are important. One branch, one unit should control the power or should have the power without a second look because it can go awful deep, far beyond war in everyday life where we have to be very careful about it. Im about to ask the last question and then it will be time for your questions. If you would take out the cards you have and write down your questions, we will screen your questions. In about ten minutes our staff will walk down and take those from you. If you could write any questions that you have. We will ask some really good questions that you ask. Dale, curtis lemay blew the city apart with conventional weapons to the point where, in the book at the end of the war he said there were human remains blown 5000 feet in the air. That was the war the last time somebody flew airplanes into things that belong to us and then we had 911. Now we have this error of the ability of everyone in the world to actually watch whats going on and what happened from Satellite Photos and the next day of an event. What is your reflection as a Commanding Officer about airpower in this new era . The only words is the great military strategists show, i know nothing. [laughter] the thing that desert storm got people to believe or think is that you can watch every single expenditure of emission. That was largely done because of the cameras that were in the front of the weapons that actually directed the mission to a particular spot. The United States military can engage any target from many number of miles up in space to several miles under the ocean. All it needs is a grid coordinate. Once United States military is given that coordinate, it will blow up. Thats a tremendous responsibility, and technology is what allows us to do that. So its very incumbent that when you train people in a system like that that they are not checklists followers. That they are rational human beings with ethics and morals and they are continually monitored for their ability to exercise balanced judgment. I have firsthand experience in this after 911. Ive often hypothesized. By the way did he say ten minutes . No, no, two minutes. [laughter] on the tenth of september 2001 if i told you the United States military was planning on shooting down civilian airliners over the United States we wouldve had Court Marshals put in jail. On the 12th of september 2001, you would be perfectly willing to let us do that. So the folks that deal with air force is you go to work and you deal with life and death matters and decisions and you walk out the door and you go to your kids soccer game. We experience that for the first time in the balkans when we had people stationed in italy, they would fly over the balkans, come back and go to their kids soccer game. The mental gymnastics and what you have to think about to train your people to understand how to compartmentalize and use the right moral judgment is absolutely crucial. Its just as crucial for the person sitting back looking at targets somewhere else in the world as it is for the people on the ground. Like the secretary said, the perspective is different. Im to come back and look at the audiences questions. What would shakespeare think about a panel like this. Would you just say i tried to make some money. [inaudible] he did know what he was talking about. [inaudible] so you are writing a book about shakespeare and about that play and you are getting inside the head of shakespeare to bring him to us. Thats really an possible thing to do. Im getting inside the head of his brother. He had three brothers actually think my fans are going to hate this book because nobody dies and there are ferries. [laughter] and theres no battle. Im waiting for your questions but standup greg. Greg is a strategist, and tomorrow in your email, those of you who bought a ticket from us are going to receive a paper we commissioned. This production, we have a famous global strategist whos written a paper for you on shakespeares time but i think will the experience you had tonight. Im waiting for those questions anytime. Are you impressed or inspired by a particular shakespeare pl play, and would you bring the president to our theater. I can tell you the president is a good boss. He doesnt micromanage. He gives me a call once a week which is what i need. Hes a good bass. , Teddy Roosevelt, i like you and love our country. This piece of history we are going through, we better figure it out as a country. We are all better in the same vote and we can debate about which direction we are going to go but we need to be in the same vote. Im a Teddy Roosevelt guy and we are all americas first before we are anything else, we are american. I want to celebrate tonight the chief judge who is here with her clerks. I cant see you, where are you . [applause] the judge brought her clerks here so they are only working at half day today. She said she is a huge fan of your books. Im going to hand this to you. Would you read the question and then comment on it. [inaudible] there is a feeling of middle people times. I use this in the novel. Objection is everything. This carries on through shakespeare where you have the wheel of fortune and people did believe. [inaudible] there is a sense of that. I think we can control our faith much better today and what people worry about, why a disease that you have no control we have more control nowadays. Its probably for the same reason we control prayer. The same reason that you console a woman and knock on wood because youre trying to control things. [inaudible] so here is a good one, youve all written very good questions, but this one in particular. In shakespeare, bad things happen to good soldiers. This seems to apply a sense of balance to justice and the rules of war and engagement and in some way take their personal responsibility out. How about we hear from a military leader about that. Its an interesting but i would counter that again most of the rules of engagement are not necessarily prescriptive. Their guidance. Yes there are things in there you cannot engage this target, you can engage this target but there also judgment and when you take judgment completely away from a soldier then your entire structure becomes, depending on your ability to preplan and pretell everything that could possibly happen. Again, the first rule of combat is stay away from stupid. We are not perfect and being able to see what all will happen in combat. We are not able to perfectly judge all what our people will face. If we were, then i might subscribe to your idea that the rules of engagement remove us from that decision but thats not how theyre constructed. For instance, the element of selfdefense extends to other people than just your person. What judgment or factors do you use in determining whether the use of selfdefense. I dont see that the rules of engagement, and i have written many, ive lived by many and ive read a lot of rules of engagement and theyre not so prescriptive in every detail that the responsibility is ever taken away or the accountability is ever taken away from the individual who is at the point of execution. So in times of war, shakespeares plays and speeches have been repeatedly sent to sailors and quoted by our president. Could you stand one more time hearing think christians they speech which is the refuge at our most Wonderful National cemetery. What is shakespeares most powerful play and speech in this area . What do you think about the particular canon of that. Is it henry and richards play . Whered you get your inspiration from with regard to this topic and shakespeare . Something that im finding really inspiring is how vulnerable he makes his soldiers when they talk about their country and their love for their country. Over and over again, you have the almost lament of o scotland, poor country, my poor country, weep for our country. For many different sayings, generals and i was profoundly moved when i started to see a pattern over and over again. For me that was what guided me through that fray. That the strongest characters were the most emotionally available when it came to expressing their love of country. There were two chronicles and they both recalled what henry the fifth said. He said lets go fellas. [applause] mr. Secretary. Well, its quite hard to go after him, isnt it i would say this. Fighting as many wars as the country has been lately, wars havent really changed. They have become very personal. We talked about the remoteness and the technology and all of those things but the decision to kill or not to kill is strange. Human nature is strange. A deep question, do you have the right, do not have the right. Those questions have yet to be answered but i think what has changed is terrorism and what we face today was very different from when i grew up. That war is still unsettled. A lot of our veterans show up and they rub it against the names, its a very Emotional Experience and its unsettling. Why is it unsettled . The nation was different. The rules of engagement were uncertain. Then you look at todays war. Rules of engagement still are not defined as you would think, a lot of kids come back and they have to ask the question why. Iraq, what did we gain. A lot of pain. A lot of pain and afghanistan. What are they fighting, the more you fight the grade of those questions are. Thats the same question. So as bright as we think we are, as americans are humans, i think it goes back to our experience. I think we can learn but we should ask the question. This is a great panel because it asks some hard questions looking at very well educated thoughtful audience addressing some very difficult questions. Lets talk about leadership and war as one last area and id like to go through the whole panel, but bernard, i would like you to start because you mentioned, it was in your biographical statement some of your early book jackets, your love for that genre of writing which i have to say, i believe very much in hornblower as a leader, as a model for leadership, but you have created new ones in your writing. Would you reflect on either fictional or real leaders and we will go right on the panel on that leadership quality and perhaps you could talk about hornblower or richard sharp. [inaudible] they once had the great sen sins not making the wrong decision, its making no decision. I remember being at a News Conference and if youre thinking we should be there for that, nothing ever got done. This is my miserable contribution. I yield the floor. Its interesting, this question of leadership. Again, i grew up in an optimist world where the question of leadership was constantly part of my childhood. For every gathering. [inaudible] so this is a never ending exoneration and i grew up with people telling me that his leadership and that is not leadership. It served me very well because they say just make a decision. Dont leave people floundering. In terms of macbeth, you have a leader thats painted as a model leader whos passionate, the language is incredibly firm, decisive and loving toward her things. Then you have her contract who is a paranoid they talk about how the soldiers fight for him for compensation, not loyalty. And they talk about the english king and the king is made to seemed like mother teresa. Shakespeare unpacks all of the different kinds of leaders and how soldiers follow and what makes them boil and what makes the leader clearly defined in the play is fascinating. One of my heroes is a hero to many people. I took my first oath of office on the fifth of july 1971. You can do the math. Im an old guy. The thing ive learned since then is not only is leadership important for you to do but can you teach others the elements of leadership as well. If its not teachable its not sustainable. Ive come to the conclusion leadership has two things into things only. Exercising judgment and being accountable for exercising judgment. With regard to leadership exercising judgment and being accountable for exercising judgment. Mr. Secretary. You have to trust decisiveness you need the judgment to know if youve made the wrong decision, to be able to listen and change based on new evidence, compelling evidence. Just because at the beginning of the battle you go through your planning team, youd be surprised at the first moments of a battle, most of your planning is agreed worthless. You have to look at judgment. That is an intangible act. Theres something about really talented leaders that you just want to follow. Trust is part of it. Thats a special part that makes the difference between a major and a kernel and a general. There is something special. We have some great leaders in this country. Ive seen other nations military leaders. We have phenomenal leaders in our military that rise far above most other countries. Let me tell you, we are planning another program like this. We are going to think about what prisoners lives were like in shakespeares time and now. We will touch on it and i hope you will come back for it. I hope you will all buy tickets to tommys play. [applause] you could become subscribers to the theater. It is wonderful to have this