I believe that 15 years ago for maybe 20, gino on the death of another famous physicist, the greatest thing you could say about him is that you were so proud to be holding the same union card. [laughter] as someone who also held it and i also feel very lucky to have been asked to interview the two about this book. The physicists physicist may not be wellknown to the public that is in fact one of the greatest heroes of anybody whos done a comic physics. Its so amazing to have this fabulous and authoritative story of his life. We have a preview from the wall street journal that has just come out that says exactly that. So it is a fabulous book and i want to get started by asking for two of them to tell us what their motivation was for writing a book that isnt as wellknown as the einstein. M. I. Too loud . Maybe i will start out i was born in italy and came to the United States as a baby but then went back and he was a hero in italy and went on to become a physicist committee was a double hero. As larry said, hes the physicists physicist. I though thought ive written aw books but there is no book on him fermi, bettina has been my first read her and help her on my other books so i gave it to her and she saw i was in a little bit of distress and i thought that a certain point what am i going to do and i was losing sight as i was so stunned by the physics i was losing sight of this political and social times he lived in and all the adventures. Bettina said to me it might need a lot of restructuring and maybe we can go easy on the quantum mechanics. [laughter] so it became quite a different book and it became our book. Its been a wonderful experience and i think some compliments not only for what she did that she learned a lot of physics. It was about time. [laughter] her father was a physicist and he couldnt do it and i couldnt do it but the book did. [laughter] im going to take a risk and say there might have been a challenging coauthoring the book. No, not at all. [laughter] it was just a bed of roses. No, it was very challenging but in wonderful ways because it was a conversation that was on a level its not that we dont talk about intellectual things but it was a whole different level and it was good arguments between us, most of the time. [laughter] it was a time that was very tough for me to learn the physics. As he said my father tried to teach me physics. I though studied physics at the university of colorado with george, a famous physicist and he knew i was the daughter of a physicist and he asked me to come up and demonstrate answers on the board for everybody. But there was a tremendous give and take in the way that we thought about the book and conceptualize it and there were different times that his battalion personality would come out and my german one would come out. [laughter] but it was a very healthy interaction and exciting. Exciting. How did the title come about, the pope of physics seems like a strange way to describe someone. You have to remember this was rome and there was a little bit of a joke there because fermi was a physicist and people used to joke his answers were always right and he knew everything and of course the pope was regarded as being infallible so the people in rome got nicknames. A very young bunch of physicists in their 20s when they started out so one was the pope and another was the cardinal, anothecardinal,another was the r and so on but theres no question about who was the pope. Of course there was another post that is another matter. The group in general is a rather godless group and that is a certain amount of air reference to this. I a am amused if one looks at amazon. Com and books for a book you will see that the number one bestseller of catholic books. [laughter] some people might be surprised. [laughter] but anyway, they are buying the book. I might add at this time when he was nicknamed the pope after the italians had conquered rome and had taken away the temporal domain he retreated to the vatican so he didnt recognize there were no diplomatic relations between the Italian Republic and the vatican. So far he could be the only pope in italy. Set the stage for us a little bit. Hes this young man completely unknown and within a decade hes going to become an International Star of science that during the time when fascism is imploring. He was the leader. He joins the fascist party and that is because they appointed him to the Royal Academy which doubled the salary and he said doubling my salary is a good thing. I will pledge allegiance to mussolini. It doesnt bother me one way or another as long as i can do my experiments. I think that he was amazingly apolitical and this was a hard aspect for us to accept. Our parents respectably fled in the case of italy and fascism and in my case nazi germany and that somebody could be totally apolitical is sort of against my grain but that is what he was. He lived for physics. Physics was his religion getting back to the pope analogy i think it was his calling. He joined the fascist party and thought it was ridiculous when there was the fellow in the Royal Academy in italy you have to wear a uniform and a fancy hat. He wasnt into any circumstances at all and his mentor in italy was a physicist was a state senator. The mayor of rome at the time was a physicist so it wasnt like he didnt have any role models for the science and politics but he chose basically to keep his head low and he hoped he would go away. It would go away. He uses a wonderful term later on when things get more tense. He and a colleague talked about the term from huxley where there is a mythical drug you could take to reduce stress and not have to Pay Attention to things around you. What i was trying to get at was where i jumped ahead at one point that he will stay here. He tried to convince heisenberg to come from germany and state in the United States. And his quote you know you do it better than i. While this was in the summer of 1939. He had already immigrated to the United States and he said heisenberg, you in italy i was a big shot but here im just a physicist like all of the other guys around here. And it is so much better than being a big shot. Why dont you stay here . And heisenberg said basically, my country needs me. My country will need me in the future. I am a loyal german. And he said okay i am a physicist. And he, he was fairly, he did not dress fancy. He did not have a fancy aeven, this is a bit of a sin for an italian. Even added water to his wine when he drank as you know. [laughter] interesting. Lets talk a little bit about the science. Im going to ask both of you and sort of independently because we have . Budding scientist. Yes. What would you say was his greatest achievement in science . And you can have two different perspectives on that. Because aphysics for his impact for what he did for the war effort. Well, you know i started by saying i was in awe. He was the only physicist in the 20 century to ever achieve a very top profession as both a theorist and experimentalist. You know ahe was a last physicist to work in all fields of physics. I would say i can pick probably if i had to, three or four things in physics that i would say 1 to 25. The basis for all you know conductors and semi conductors and transistors the way we think about the metals. The introduction, there were two forces of nature. Gravity and electromagnetism. He introduced one third one in a series that most of us work on. Daily and, he was also the first man to use neutrons to bombard nuclei and that is the basis of Nuclear Physics and the basis of how a fusion and how the bomb was built. Also how reactors are built, nuclear medicine. So he did a lot. [laughter] i think my associate here will name three more now. [laughter] contributions and it is probably not the right word to use but i would say that enrico fermi has to be remembered for being the person, more than any Single Person who was responsible, how you feel about is another thing but who was responsible for the making of the atom bomb. It changed our world. To change the world rethink desolate we think about the world. It changed our in international relations, it opened up a whole new era and that has to be a standalone some kind of way i think. So as controversial as it is and maybe will get into that more with the questions, i would say that his research and his experiment 1st and the university of chicago, underneath the stadium where he has the First Successful experiment in Controlling Nuclear aa chain reaction. Which inevitably led to the making of the bomb. That has to go very high on my list. He was also a great teacher. I mean, depending on how you count the numbers. Six or eight or 10 of the students got nobel prizes. But the style was set both in italy and people from Northern Europe in the 30s who came to work with him and postwar america. When the people who trained the likes of the peons here on the stage were trained. So . A huge impact just in terms of the people and who they touched. Lets talk a little bit about the beginning of the atomic age in 1942. I think when you make the movie, that is going to be one of the most exciting scenes, putting the atomic together and i also have to say the most unbelievable part of this is that the university of chicago ever had a football team. [laughter] so . It was a defunct stadium. Wish you could put an atomic pile into. So play of the scene here. How does he put together aand is it unique that enrico fermi was able to do this all right. Well, the pile is, you coined that term pile. It is a bunch of bricks with lead and balls of uranium in there. With some control odds and when you can plot the control rods he said you will have a control reaction. Originally it was going to be built in the organ on forest but there into trouble with some of the construction workers. So fermi went to the head of the project and said no problem. There is a cart there, we will just come to me and the guys a we would just put all of the bricks in. You know. Is not a problem. It is 45,000 30 pound lead breaks. Will have two ships and we can do this in 15 days. And by the way he said, the project to arthur compton, you better not tell the president of the university that we are doing this. [laughter] can you imagine that happening today . [laughter] in all fairness ahe had approved the project rightly. Not the experiment. On campus. He did not know it might blow the campus up. [laughter] so how dangerous was this experiment equate at some really amazing point in the story, fermi says lets stop for lunch. They leave the atomic pile there. They go to lunch come back and it is right where it is supposed to be. I think they put a lock on the door. [laughter] but, one of the things we were talking about before lunch, and larry and i are both physicists and bettina said we will get there yet. But he seemed to have always this perfect confidence that they were going to work the way he built them. And he had this already as a kid. You know there was no, he had no teachers, his parents ahe said i know how to do things. I will make it work. And awas it dangerous . Probably not. Not with fermi there because everybody trusted, there is fermi. He has done the calculations. He told them you know, the day before, okay when you put these last bricks and, the 57th layer of bricks than it will go critical when you pull out the last of the control rods. And that is exactly the way it went. And must say that the story of how that happened underneath awas a remarkable story when we went to the archives at the university of chicago where we are both, bringing in boxes and is in a room that has glass on two sides and they make you wear gloves. None of that happened in italy when we went to the italian archives. No gloves, you can handle whatever you wanted. But . A little coffee while you are studying. [laughter] it at the university of chicago they are very careful about and understandably so. And reading this account of what happened there underneath field when Nuclear Fission was controlled and it was such a, i was totally thrown by this. Unexpectedly, emotional moment to read this because you know the world is going to change. And i start crying and i just start bursting into tears. And gino is sort of looking at me and then one of the archivist comes rushing in with a box of kleenex for me. And she said excuse me, could you just be careful not to drip on the . [laughter] but it is an amazing story and one of my favorite parts of the book. Because you have this room full of 50 people who basically have faith in fermi. Theyre saying we will be okay. They could have been blown to smithereens as could have the campus and the city. And they are there and there is evidently one woman who is the only woman in the room and she is the youngest person room i think she was 26 at that point. And she is doing the neutron count. It is her voice, is the female voice. I was that this make a great opera. I dont know if anyone abut anyway, the neutron count keeps on accelerating. You know as she starts out and 100,000 and i was always thinking will be a great aria enough 10, 20 aup to the high c which is that it has been critical. So it was quite a suspenseful time. But people had faith that fermi knew what he was doing. He was cool about it, he was totally, this is just another experiment. I think to add to that, that when you pull out the last control rod and the piles is critical, it generated only one half lot but it is increasing and it is increasing exponentially. So they are all waiting for fermi to give the order to put the ride back in. [laughter] and he kept wanting to check that the current really was exponential. So he took them slightly less than four minutes to give the order to put the rod and. And the people who were there, those four minutes athey kept saying, when is he going to give the order to put the rod back in . And they did not say anything because it was fermi. But if it had been anybody else it might have been them yelling put the rod back in so, fermi joins three labs all dedicated to the Manhattan Project. And this is all as you say, science for him. Then the bomb goes off in july. And you know it works. Now it is no longer science. You have to make a decision as to whether to drop this or not. How does fermi feel at this point . Is he still thinking of it as just science . For thousands of people are going to die because we have now made this thing and actually is going to work the way we plan for it to work . Well, can i start . Yes, please. It is difficult to know exactly how he felt. He felt in terms of science he felt that ignorance is the worst possible condition you can have and anything is you know, that knowledge is something inevitable and that if we do not reach that knowledge somebody else will. That the loss of nature will be revealed. We will uncover them and as a physicist, that he felt this was what his role was. This was what his calling was. So the bomb gets developed, it goes off successfully as larry just said. And then the decision has to be reached. What does one do with it . But actually, even before that bomb went off in july, and may there, people in washington who at that point had some foresight said we are going to have to decide what to do with this. Looks like we are actually going to make a bomb and were going have to decide what to do with it. So what did they do . They do what everyone does, you appoint a committee. And this is called the interim committee because it was just going to be about the bomb. And with that interim committee which was a distinguished committee of people, they had a Scientific Panel. There were four scientists that would decide the interim committee. And that was a sequence. On the interim committee was oppenheimer of course, and fermi was on it with two other nobel prize is assists. And they were asked to make a recommendation. And they met in los alamos on june 15 and 16th. And there was tremendous controversy about what should be done. Should there be a demonstration . It was a whole group of physicists who felt they should be a demonstration in some Remote Island some remote place. And that demonstration we could invite japan, maybe some other countries to that demonstration. They would see the power of this weapon and they would prevents further war. The other camp was, that is not going to work. The logistics are harming this for one thing. And we need to drop it to show the japanese in particular, the germans had already surrendered. The japanese that we have a weapon of mass destruction. That was the controversy in this committee, this panel the Scientific Panel of port scientists look at it and they made the recommendation that there was no viable alternative other than to drop the bomb on a major city, a Major Industrial center. Fermi was part of that. Fermi looked very much at the technical parts of it that was part of the decisionmaking. At the same time when they made that recommendation, they said that they had no end in athey had no special competence. To make the judgment, the political judgment to drop a bomb. They were very modest in that regard saying were not sure scientists are the best people to make these decisions. But that was a decision that was made. We looked very hard. There was no, nothing that we could find in our research that had any evidence that fermi was hesitant in making that decision. So, do not forget the scientists who were in los alamos had by and large sled fascism and were very patriotic about this country. It is obviously a very controversial decision. Many thought that this weapon was so horrible that it might bring an end to all wars. There was a view that a discussed with him in los alamos. And there are physicists who deferred, a group in chicago, a committee headed by a eminent physicist named frank that made a recommendation that it not be used as a war weapon. Obviously a very tricky one and clearly, the president of the United States, you have to remember this is a war and are you going to not use it because of the danger of bringing into the world such a weapon . Are you going to tell the parents of the men and women who are killed in the war that goes on that might have been stopped . Men. Pretty much men. That he did not use a weapon because of moral scruples . That is a decision . A very tough one. And do not forget that the United States had invested 2 billion at that point. And what are we going to show for it . A weapon that we are not going to use. That is a hard thing for politicians to justify. And people also concerned that if it wasnt used future scientific funding would be in jeopardy. But i think it was that the primary athat was secondary. Yes. It was an enormous project. There were 100,000 people employed at the height. And by the way, it was so secret that when fdr died and truman became president , the secretary of war, the very same day told him, president truman, there is something i want to tell you. [laughter] he did not know that the atom bomb had been developed. I am going to ask if the two of you want to read a passage . I thought you would never ask. I just happen to be ready. Yes, sure. Im going to read, and mentioned to you that a very exciting part of this book was, for me anyway, the whole scene. Beneath the football field. So this is a scene where the experiment is successful. And people were not sharing. The new the impact of this. People were very happy the experiment went well. That they did not all get blown up but, they understood also the implications of this. So they, it was in the evening by the time they left. One of the things that the head of the chicago experiment had to do was let the people in washington know how the experiment went. And that call was going to be put to james cronin who was president of harvard but also led the Major Committee in washington that was responsible for coming up with an answer about what to do with the bomb. So compton calls washington and as was indicated, this was a very secret effort. So they had to over the phone, disguised exhibit. So they talked a little bit in disguise here. So this is compton talking to conan here he says jim, youll be interested to know that the italian navigator, who could that be . I just landed in the new world. Conan, excited and responded with is that so . Where the natives friendly . I answered, everyone landed safe and happy. That is the end of that conversation. As darkness began to descend on chicago that december afternoon, those drifting slowly out, the first degree fermi at the pile in the morning was the last physicist to leave in the evening. When he finally filed out, one of the guards stationed outside asked him, what is going on dr. . Did something happen in there . Something had indeed happened. None of those in there that afternoon forgot being there when this pile went critical. It had only generated a maximum power of half of i want. Scarcely enough to light a flashlight battery. However, if that had been allowed to go unchecked it would have killed everyone and wrecked havoc in the city of chicago. So, i will read something from the, the very beginning of the book. It is in the prologue. When the bomb, they were not sure the plutonium bomb would work. So there was a test, a trinity. And there was a lot of discussion but they had a betting pool was going to work or not . And how big of a bomb it would be. So they were all lying in the desert there on july 16 in the new mexico desert. And they are looking at the distance at the site where the bomb is due to explode. And it finally went up. The famous, now mushroom cloud. And the reactions were varied. My uncle, i had an uncle who was a physicist, he was fermis First Student in rome in the old days. In the work a lot. And he was at los alamos at fermis side when the bomb went off. And he always tried to imitate fermi but couldnt quite get there. It wasnt quite as rational. And when he saw that he remembers thinking, oh my god we have set the world on fire. And then he said no, no, no that is impossible. But the reactions were, oppenheimer remembered athis is not from the book. Oppenheimer member the lines from the scriptures. I am becoming death, the destroyer of worlds. Bainbridge and other physicists express themselves in another language saying now we are all sons of ameanwhile i will go on more what was fermi doing . This is no reading from the book. As the blast went off, a few seconds after fermi stood up and began tearing a large piece of paper into small pieces. And then dropping from his upraised hand, 40 seconds later at the front of the shock waves hit, the mid air pieces were blown a short distance away. Pacing the distance to where they landed some feet away he consulted a little chart he had prepared before hand. Shortly after fermi told those around him he estimated the blast force roughly equivalent to 10 tons of tnt. He was right by the way. Not exactly but he treated it as another experiment. He did, amazing. All right we are going to draw this part to a close soon enough you asked some questions. Please join me in thanking gino segre and bettina hoerlin. [applause] so we have two people here with microphones and i remind you this is being recorded for cspan. If you like to raise your hand you can wait until the microphone reaches you. The gentleman in red. What happened to the pile at the university of chicago after the experiment . They took it apart and they rebuilt it where they originally wanted to have it at the Oregon Forest. So the pile was known as cp 1one. An cpt was increased in the Oregon Forest site. We just got an email from in front of us at the university of chicago says he thinks he may have discovered one of the original bricks. And these are big graphite bricks. So they are not insignificant in size. And when the Construction Company basically came out in the physicist started to build it there were some very strong kids in chicago that were from the neighborhood. These are basically immigrant kids will help them all these bricks and this was a high thing. This was 25 feet high and it was big. And it was unheated and december in chicago. Any questions . [inaudible] can you stand up please . Stand up . Yes. So gino, you have written three books before this and this was the first time that the two of you collaborated. How did you deal with who was going to write what . I got to write the sexy parts. No . [laughter] i think what you are asking gino, then i will give you my perspective. The drafts went back and forth sometimes if it was primarily physics i would probably write the first draft. If it was primarily politics, the tina would probably write the first draft. But they all went back and forth. That is the way it was and at least that is the way i remember it. That is accurate. Yes . How did the United States choose an Italian Fascist to head of this project . Im sorry did not quite get that, how did i what . How did the United States choose an Italian Fascist to head up their Manhattan Project . Well, there are a couple of ways to answer that. The fbi investigated him and said, he is a fascist do not trust him. He should not be cleared for government work. A professor at chicago was on the project. He told the head of the project compton said if you want to talk to somebody about how to do this, the man to talk to is fermi. And ahe was cleared. I think it might be a little unfair to characterize him as an Italian Fascist. He belonged to the fascist party so yes, technically. He escaped italy and he is actually via stockholm. It was a classy escape. He picked up his nobel prize on the way to the United States. [laughter] had carefully strategized that. That it would be how they would get out of italy. When he got the nobel prize, he did not get the fascist salute. Nor did he dress in the uniform of the academy of the Royal Academy. He was identifying as a fascist. And the newspapers in italy were all over him that the story there was nothing he won a nobel. It had been that he was disrespectful to italy. They did not regard him as a fascist when he came to this country, he was not regarded as a fascist. He was regarded as an eminent physicist who could get things done. And who had been introduced to the United States he landed with his family in new york on january 2, 1939. He turned to them beaming and said, we have just established the American Branch of the family. So i think he did not identify that way. He was not identified that way even though the army at one point thought him a risk. Here he was with the most secret project, he had a bodyguard, he had a name athis is when he was at los alamos. He traveled by another name. But he was considered a loyal american. Let me just add a footnote to that. The Italian University system is a state system. So the university essentially all of them are state universities. In 1931, all professors were asked to spare their loyalty to mussolini and basically to join the fascist party. Of the 1200 professors at the time only 12 refused and those were, all 12 were either emigrating then or reaching retirement. So, and they felt hey, if we dont do this then we will be replaced by people who are really fascists. So we should, this is something we should do. So you know fascism in italy was a terrible thing. But it is not quite the same i think as not aas nazi germany. Well maybe lets not talk about bad and terrible. [laughter] in green. Please stand up so the camera can see you. I think it is odd that we are talking about fascism and 2016. I cant imagine why. [laughter] i do wonder at sort of a love of physics and that yielding of passivity about the world. Both in terms of his joining the party but more in terms of him wielding a machine that you cant possibly use and then saying lets use it against an enemy whose air force we had already destroyed. And to bomb at will conventionally, because he never thought about what it meant to have an atomic weapon. Or if he did, it was not as much fun as the experiment. I am wondering about that, that passivity, sort of in a gingrich way. [laughter] well passivity lets also, you answer this. [laughter] but i will say that this is the recommendation made by the Scientific Panel of the interim committee which was a had other than fermi, had the three most distinguished physicists that were involved on the Manhattan Project. Namely compton, lawrence and oppenheimer. So abettina, take it away. [laughter] i think related to the fact that this is something that bothered us throughout the book. In terms of just our own stance and i think part of the challenge for this book in terms of me, was trying to look at this person for who he was and not through my lens always. And its very tempting for all of us to look at the world through our own lens. Which means that of course you have to speak out. Of course and, it doesnt apply at all to today but of course, you have to speak out. And here was somebody who was just in a priesthood kind of. A priesthood of physics. He did not feel that way. But i think it is hard to make a judgment about this in terms of what if this had been arrived at by another country with awould they have used it . Would london have been a victim of the atomic bomb . If germany had gotten there first . So, there are those questions. It is a complicated answer. I do not have an answer actually it is complicated. But it is one that takes us today in terms of the threats of nuclear war and how do we handle that . The people in that era had almost two months to discuss this. From what i can understand anyway, if there is an atomic bomb headed our way through a missile or something, we have about ai thought it was 10 minutes but the other day i think it was said by elizabeth warren, four minutes to make a decision. These decisions are not easy. We do not have a mechanism in place to make them today. And i would add to that, and at the time, use of the air force, the Japanese Air Force was destroyed but it was believed that they would have to be a land invasion in japan and that there would be losses. Large losses involved in that because there was a group of the Japanese Armed forces that would fight to the very end. So that was also in that mix of the decision. Thats really it. Given the secrecy and the number of people who worked on this and the number of Government People who had to know something. What do you know about how the discussion went . Did any of those thousand people say no or leave . Okay, well ai think there are kind of two questions there in terms of how it was a very secret project and how did they keep that so secret. And it is amazing to think about. Because it was academia, government, industry. They were all in secret about this 100,000 people. 100,000 people working on it and yet it was a secret project. So, what were their discussions . Yes, there were discussions. There were discussions at los alamos. Again, prior to even the test at trinity being successful. There was a scientist at los alamos, Robert Wilson who insisted to fermi that, im sorry to oppenheimer, that there be lab i discussions about this. So that people could air their opinions. The decisionmaking as such were those for scientists. And they knew about the discussions. They knew about the controversy and they made their judgment for better or for worse, they made their judgment. But it was widely discussed with in the labs. If that makes sense. Externally, people did not know about it. And we have not even mentioned mrs. Fermi. She was probably an amazing woman. She did not know what had happened when fermi came back from the test. The trinity test. She knew that he had not driven home that night. And whether that was he was exhausted or he was emotionally spent, we dont know. But it was rare for him not to be at the drivers wheel and she, but she had no idea what had happened. And mainly wives at los alamos had no idea either. And after i think there was initially great jubilation that the war was won. Then the horrors of it sank in and there were moral questions. And they formed a group. And these were people that were saying that we have to figure out what to do about these bombs in the future. And fermi did not join the group. I would ask, i would add to that, you did i believe also asked if anybody left the project. As far as we know, it was only one person who left. A man named, a polish physicist who had emigrated to england and came over as part of the english mission. A man named joseph rothblot. He left when it became clear that the germans did not have the capacity to build the weapon. He was a distinguished physicists but not one of the major figures of los alamos. He later became a peace activist. Maybe one more question. Had his wife not been jewish, had fermis wife not been jewish, and you think theres a possibility it would have come to the United States . No. [laughter] i think he would have come. This is where the science was happening among other things. That the leading scientists from germany who were jewish had come here. The scientists from italy had come here. People were coming here and this was where it was happening and exciting. He really liked the country. So i dont see that he would have stayed in italy. I think that as much as we have emphasized that he was a political, i think that there would have even been a limit for fermi. As you know perhaps from going to south philadelphia, italians have strong families. [laughter] i think if laura had not been so attached to her family, fermi would have come earlier. His parents had died in the 20s. Physics was, as bettina said, his priesthood. And i think he would have come earlier if she had not been jewish, would he have left italy . Now there is the question. His good friend aand coworker did not leave italy for much the same reason. As much as he wanted to come to the United States, if she had not been jewish there is a chance that he would not have come to the United States. The atom bomb would not have been developed in world war ii. In time for the end of the war. This is a story full of what ifs. You know, if fermi had discovered ain 1935 which was a clear possibility, then perhaps the germans would have taken a Crash Program to develop a bomb. Which the other countries would not have done. And the world would have been different that way. But as we know, life is full of what ifs in this case. The what ifs were big stakes. I think the answer, obviously gino and i disagree on is a bit but i do think the answer is that he was an extraordinarily complicated man in his simplicity and some way. And that was a hard thing for us to grasp. It was a hard thing to convey in the book. But i hope that we did it in a way that you can make your own judgments about it. [applause]