Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Fraud Against Seniors 20151024

The clerk will read a communication to the senate. The clerk washington d. C, nod conversation will now come to order and the chair recognizes himself for five minutes for the purpose of an Opening Statement. This morning, first let me welcome our witnesses. This morning we will receive an update on the Consumer Protection efforts in place to address the fraud risk for americas seniors. As of july 2013, there are over 44 million americans who are older than 65. That almost 14 of the population. The population, 65 and holder in the United States, projects to outnumber people younger than 18 for the first time in 2033. A mere 18 years from now. The Median Income of these households is over 35,000 per year, and 71 report having a computer in their home. The median networth of seniors 65 and over is 25 times that of people under 35 years of age. The expanding population of Older Americans and their relative wealth compared to other age groups increases the risk that someone will want to target them as scams. New technologies are everywhere. Each week a new smartphone or tablet is announced. New apps and new capabilities keep cropping up, kealing up with new technology can be a challenge, particularly for seniors that are less familiar with technology, or are retired and are not exposed to new technology at the workplace. The risk of fraud cannot be underestimated. In the november issue of consumer reports, eight brave seniors came forward to tell their stories about being defrauded. In some cases out of thousands of dollars, sometimes just in a matter of hours. This is all before family or Law Enforcement could be notified or intervene. While fraud perpetrated by strangers against the elderly is not the only type of abuse against the elderly, it does represent 50 of the reported cases. That is why the hearing today is so important. Even where there is no silver bullet, it is critically important for the subcommittee to understand what Government Agencies, what the media, what universities and what private groups are doing to empower seniors to protect themselves from fraud, and to help them recuperate losses if they are targeted. And we need to figure out how our enforcement agencies can devote more resources to the problem. There are few more important issues when it comes to fraud and Consumer Protection. The chair now recognizes subcommittee rank member for five minutes for an Opening Statement, please. Thank you, mr. Chairman. For holding this hearing on preventing fraud against seniors. I really appreciate the focus on this topic. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. I want to particularly thank a fellow chicagoan, Robert Harris, for being here. Mr. Harris is the cook county Public Guardian and is leading the fight to protect the elderly against fraud and deception in my home town. As a longtime consumer advocate and now the cochair of the Congressional Task force on seniors for the democratic caucus, im committed to ensuring that seniors benefit from strong Consumer Protections. More now than ever this subcommittee ought to be helping and we are beginning that process today to ensure that elderly americans are protected against fraudsters. Seniors represent the Fastest Growing segment of our population since 2000. The number of seniors has grown 30 . While the population overall just increased 10 . More than one in four seniors who lives alone has difficulty with activities of daily living or some Cognitive Impairment. According to the fbi, serbs seniors generally have a higher net worth, tendencies to be trusting and less likely to report fraud. All of this makes the elderly prime targets. We have seen an uptick in the number of products and Services Targeted toward the elderly, including antiaging products, health, related products, Prize Promotions and reverse mortgages. Im incredibly concerned about the risks posed by those products and services. Not necessarily that all of them are fraudulent, but that we need to be careful. I want to know what trends or witnesses are seeing, hear their policy and Public Engagement prescriptions for combating fraud, and learn how we can help you in protecting the elderly. Id also like to say that if this congress is truly committed to rooting out senior fraud, we should start by providing Adequate Funding to the cfpb. [inaudible] the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the federal trade commission, and other agencies responsible for protecting seniors. Stopping fraud should not come at the cost of adequately overseeing Financial Services, industries, appropriately monitoring corporate data security, and privacy policies. Yet, unfortunately, the republican budget would eliminate mandatory funding for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and cut funding for the ftc more than three percent from the previous year. With those entities responsible for protecting more seniors from more threats each year, its hard to see how those proposals are anything but antisenior. I hope this hearing is the beginning of a collaborative process that will yield real benefits to Senior Citizens. Our senior population and their families deserve no less. Again, i thank the witnesses for appearing today. I thank the chairman for this hearing, and i look forward to gaining from your insights. Would the gentle lady yield back . I yield bang. The chair thanks the gentle lady. Chair asks if there are 0 other members on the republican side seeking time for an Opening Statement . We will temporarily conclude with member statements. Other member made yet arrive at the committee and wed like to give them time because we know there is another subcommittee hearing going on this morning and people are toggling in between. For the members who are hair, chair remean member that pursuant to Committee Rules all members Opening Statements are made part of the report to be respective of everyones time. [inaudible conversations] the chair is pleased to recognize the Ranking Member for the full committee for the p. Es of Opening Statement. You shouldnt wait for me, mr. Chairman. So noted. It will never happen again. Seriously. I want too thank you and the Ranking Member for holding todays hearing on ways to protect our seniors from fraud. As we have seen fraud too often each year it fakes consumers of all ages and at the perpetrators remain adept at avoiding the consequences their criminal acts. Seniors are a fast growing segment of our population and their threats to their Financial Security can mean bills of dollars in stolen assets. Todays seniors are living longer, and possess greater wealth than previous Generation Office sender. Obviously encouraging trends but also represent opportunities for abuse to occur seniors are incut bet width ann aging products, computer repair, and many others. Theyre also targeted disproportionately for certain scams like those involving prize mow motions, Health Related products and services and reverse mortgages in addition active lives means active on the speaker net where a significant number of scams originate. Certain types of harassment some as being constantly bombard with telemarketing scams and stop answering the phone can lead to feelings of isolation. And we have seen a rise of abuse committed by those close to seniors, including Family Members, caregivers or other trusted adviser. Seniorers are less his tenant to report crimes either out of embarrassment or fear of retribution. Other is may be unaware of a crime committed against them. A number of federal agencies stand ready to assist state and local services in combating fraud against seniors. The ftc and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau play a keel key role in take actions against the perpetrators and as up a is the case, much of the daytoday fighting against fraud is occurring at the state and local levels. I look forward to hearing from the Witnesses Today what is working and where we can improve our response to fraud against seniors. Our seniors in the savings they have worked so hard to build over the course of their lives are at stake and some seniors have seen the nest eggs wiped away and never to return. We need to make sure the seniors have the tools to prevent these devastating scenarios if just want to say, when i graduated from law school, for a couple of years, i was actually i worked for an agency called protective services for the elderly, when if was in the state legislature, we actually put together a bill that govern cane, who is a republican, signed, that basically set up a program protecting the elderly from fraud and abuse. So im particularly i havent really been involved directly since then. Its a long time ago. But always something i worry a great deal about and i was actually involved with this on a daytoday basis. So, thank you, mr. Chairman. Gentleman yields back and the chair thanks the gentlemen now we will turn to our witnesses. We do want to thank them for being here with us this morning and taking time to testify before this subcommittee. Todays hearing will consist of two panels, im e each panel will have an opportunity to give an Opening Statement followed by a round of questions from members. Once we conclude with questions of the first panel, well take a brief recess to set up for the second panel. Our first Witness Panel for todays hearing includes mr. Daniel kaufman, Deputy Director of the bureau of Consumer Protection at federal trade commission. Mrs. Stacy cannon, Deputy Director of the office of financial protection for Older Americans at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. And mr. Robert f. Harris, Public Guardian of cook county, illinois. We appreciate all of you being here today and well begin the panel with you, mr. Kaufman. Youre recognized for five minutes for an Opening Statement. Thank you. Good morning. I am daniel kaufman, Deputy Director of the bureau of Consumer Protection at the federal trade commission and delighted to appear before you to provide an overview of the fraud throat Older Americans. Come batting fraud is a critical component of the ftcs Consumer Protection mission and certainly every Law Enforcement case that we bring affects Older Americans. We have adopted a multifalls set approach in our battle against fraud targets older consumers or injuries them more than others and clues aggressive Law Enforcement policy initiatives and Consumer Education and outreach. To address such fraud effectively, the ft cmonner toes fraud trend by gathering data gather from Consumer Complaints and surveys and corroborating with Law Enforcement, academia and legal services. Through our expensive Law Enforcement experience and efforts to track fraud trends we have identified practices affecting seniors in several dissecrete areas and our Consumer Complaint data shows for 2015, Older Americans complained primarily about government and business imposter scams, telemarketing, and sweepstakes and lottery scams. While our Consumer Survey hoes that Older Americans north necessarily more likely to be defrauded then younger consumers the ftc has never spoke cussed on scams involving seniors inch recent year we have concentrated our late. Effort on Technical Support and healthcare related scams. Fraudsters frequently claim affiliation with wellknown businesses or Government Agencies to build trust with consumers. And often use robocalls and spoof caller i. D. Es to reach as many people as possible. In the last year, the ftc has file three cases against defendants engaged in Technical Support scams where con artists trick consumers into purchasing Technical Support services and products purportedly to fix problems on their computers. In fact the computer problems are nonexistent the defendants have caused millions of dollars in injury to older consumers. The ftcs actions crucial in halting these practices. Similarly, the ftc had filed multibell cases against fraudsters that used practices to sell healthcare related products and services to Older Americans such as medical alert systems, pharmaceutical benefits, and fake information regarding medicare benefits. In all of thieves cases, the fraudsters pretend an affiliation with a consumers friend or Family Member or a wellknown bank or Government Agency in order to gain consumers trust. Law enforcement efforts have banned defendants from telemarketing, making row ocalls, debiting Bank Accounts and we have recovered money for consumers. We have also sued Money Transfer Services Commonly used in scams that target Older Americans and our coordination with state, federal, and International Partners is a strong as ever. Indeed some of the individuals suedes by the ftc for defrauding elderly consumers have been prosecuted criminally. Finally, Consumer Education and outreach are indispensablible. In 2014 we launched an innovative and successful education effort called, pass it on, aimed at older active consumers. Passion it pass it on arms seniors with information such as imposter and Health Care Scams and Identity Theft they can pass on to family and friends. The ftc has an ongoing and sustain commitment to protecting Older Americans by pursuing robust Law Enforcement, important policy work, and innovative Consumer Education and outreach. I look forward to any questions you may have. Chair the thanks. Ms. Cannon youre recognized for five minutes for an Opening Statement, please. Would you please check to see if your microphone is on. Thank you. Can you hear me now . Great. Thank you. Thank you, chairman burgess, Ranking Member and distinguished members of the subcommittee for this opportunity to speak with you today about the devastating problem of elder financial exploitation. My name is stacy can no the Deputy Assistant directyear in the office nor Older Americans at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Our office is dedicated to providing older consumers with the tools they need to protect themselves from Financial Abuse and to make sound financial decisions. The evidence is clear, Older Americans have assets that make them attractive targets of fraudsters. In 2011, the cumulative net worth of consumers age 56 and old ever was approximately 17. 2 trillion decision. Older dowels are victimized by scam artist us, Family Members, caregivers, financial advisers, home repair contractors and even courtappointed guardians. A National Study found that an estimated 5. 2 of americans 60 and older are exploited by a Family Member. Other studies show that most incidents of Financial Abuse go unreported and under the radar. Once the fraud occurs, of course, Older Americans have. Time and few resources to recoup lost savings. To address these serious challenges we recognize that collaboration is critical. Among other things the bureau participates along with 11 other federal agencies the elder justice coordinating council. The council fosterses coordination of federal agencies. For example many of our initiatives support Council Recommends and this year the cfpb and the ftc jointly issued a consumer advisory on plan egg for diminished capacity and illness. Also works on education initiatives with Nonprofit Community organizations and industry groups, such as the Financial Services roundtable and meals on wheels america. Id like to tell youve about a few of our initiatives to combat elder financial exploitation. One is the money smart for Older Adults Program which we developed jointly with the fdic. Money smart is a curriculum that teaches consumers and their caregivers about different types of fraud, scams, exploitation, and provides warning signs and tips. Its used bay broad range ofber speed e. R. A. , including state and local governments, nonprofits, financial institutes. In october 2013 we released managing someone else riz money guide. For people who are managing the finances for a Family Member or friend who is unable to pay bills or make financial decisions. Many Older Americans experience declining capacity to handle finances, which make them very vulnerable to fraudsters. 22 of americans over age 70 have mild Cognitive Impairment. Even mild Cognitive Impairment, reduce an Older Persons ability to detect fraud or scam, there are necessitating the need for a surrogate to handle their money. The guides mentioned are user friendly, how 0to guides that explain thedy fiduciarys responsibilities and how to spot scams and exploitation. In 2013, the cfp and seven other federal agencies released intereight guidance to provide Financial Institutions with certainties about the legality of reporting suspected financial exploitation. The guidance encourages timely reporting to Law Enforcement, adult protective services, and other federal and state and local agencies. The bureau also has Additional Resources that help protect Older Americans against fraud. Ask cfpb is an interactive, online tool that helps consumers fine clear, unbuy assed answers to their financial questions. It has served more than eight million visitors since march 2012. We also accept Consumer Complaints by phone, mail, fax, and through our web site. As of september 30, 2015, the bureau handled over 726,000 complaints of which approximately 63,000 were submitted by or on behalf of a consumer 62 years and older. Congressional leadership and support is critical to implementing a multifacetted collusion to the serious problem of elder financial exploitation. We therefore commend this subcommittee for holding this hearing and look forward to continued information sharing with interested parties and stakeholders. Thank you very much. Chair thanks the gentle lady. Mr. Harris, five minutes for an Opening Statement, please. Good morning, temperature burgess, chairman of this committee, Ranking Member, and members of the commerce, manufacturing and trade subcommittee. My name is Robert Harris and im a lawyer, and i am the cook county Public Guardian in chicago. I was appointed in 2004 by the chief judge of the Circuit Court of cook county to act as the guardian for people with alzheimers and dementia. Im here today to discuss the issue confronting hundreds of my people measure any under my guardianship who have severe forms of dementia and alzheimers and have been financially exploited. My office serves approximately 600 people right now as the guardian of last resort for people without family or others to care for them. The average age is 72. The oeldest is 103, and around 70 of them are over 90 years old. Our goal is to maintain them in their own homes or in a community setting, and for approximately a third of those people, we are able to do so with their own assets. At this point, most of them have bought homes, saved money for their golden years. Unfortunately, there are people who view them as potential victims, and the problem is so widespread that at least a third of our intake cases have some sort of financial exploitation. It doesnt matter if they have large estates worth over a Million Dollars or if they Simple Police have a house worth 25,000. Another up fortunate fact is the exploiters can be anyone. Family members, agents acting under their power of attorney, bank tellers, attorneys, clergy, caregivers, longtime friends, cases involving Police Officers and strength jerries jerries an strangers and others who have or paying position of trust. To 0 recover assets phonestrom tome people we do several things. We work with Law Enforcement, adult protect testify service agencies, and Fraud Protection departments Financial Institution us. We work with the media to shed light on the problem within the public and we speak at various Community Organizations to educate their constituents about the problem. One of hour strongest and chief tools we use is development of a Financial Recovery unit that we call through. We have three fulltime attorneys who file citation actions pursuant to the illinois probate act and other causes of action to recover stolen, converted, embezzled or concealed assets. Over the past ten years, that we have worked on this particular issue, the unit has recovered almost 50 million in money, houses, and other properties for the people under my guardianship. To be able to use for their care to maintain them in the community. The types of scams we see include executing fraudulent deeds, unduly influencing the elderly individual to sign over their property, or using a power of attorney to empty their bank account. The almost 50 million that we have recovered for people under my guardianship is just the tip of the iceberg, and im sure that it is only a tiny fraction of the money that individuals have been exploited of in and around chicago. Some of hour suggested solutions are to help local governments establish offices such as mine, or legal clinics to establish practices that help people who have been exploited, whether they come into the court system or whether they simply need help, and arent involved in the Probate Court case. Educate seniors in the public regarding the dangers of financial exploited addition through Community Organizations, and places of worship, and community centers, and resources that might be available to them to utilize organizations like the national guardianship association, to play an Important Role by promoting standards of best practices for guardians and Probate Courts by providing education and training provide advocacy on the issue and the impact of seniors, including elder abuse and financial exploitation. Develop Court Systems and processes that dont work against seniors and consider the urgency of the timing. Abuse many exploiters simply try to wait out the life span of those of the elderly victims you. Have the written tells i have submitted that are premise net large part on article that my deputy Public Guardian, called goldberg wrote and id be happy to share our experiences with individual cases. Gentleman yields back. The chair thanks the jaye and all of our witness ford your testimony. Well move into our question portion of the hearing. Ill recognize myself for five minutes. Mr. Harris, just have to ask you, learned so much in this subcommittee. Fraudulent deed . What happeneds with that . Someone comes door to door . No, actually what they do sometimes is they do quitclaim deeds from the person, the elderly person. They forge those deeds write their own anymores in or deed it to a third party and then they record it against the property. And sometimes those elderly people never know about the crime. And then one day someone shows up and they no longer own the home. Someone purchased the home sometimes they actually they have not purchased the home, just developed a deed, and recorded against their property. And youre able to intervene on behalf of that person you, yes. What happens is the cases are referred to our office and the person qualifies, first of all, have to have a Cognitive Impairment that is severe enough to qualify for our services elm we would file Something Like a citation action to recover their property that has been wrongfully taken fromhill them. There are other people within your county who would if someone wasnt suffering from a Cognitive Impairment, where that key be remedied. Yes, theres a Legal Assistance foundation we have in chicago that also has a Fraud Department and there are a couple of attorneys that work on cases for people who dont have guardians. Sometimes theyre referred to us if theres a need for a guardian, but often they just have people that walk in. This is a the office is very small, and one of the biggest issues i think we are confronted with, not just on the deed, the fraudulent deed cases, but some of our the people we work with make the worst witnesses because of their cognitively impairment, whether its severe or not. So we need they need more help. Its sometimes very intensive, document intensive financial intensive cases that require a lot of work and detail. Thank you. Mr. Kaufman, thank you for being here this morning and certainly want to thank the ftc for always being willing to come and talk to our subcommittee and having us over to your offices earlier in the year, and having me to your regional offices in dallas, and that was all very helpful, and ive learn about a number of resources that are available. Let me just ask you a question about your involvement when you have a Foreign Agency involved. Something called the japan jamaican lottery clerk im not sure i understand. What enforcement tools do you have to be able to put a stop to these practices and what have you learn about multijurisdictional enforcement. Multithank you for at the question. Multijust digsality enforcement is challenging, when fraud is emanating from over seas to the identity. The tools the committee has given us have proceeded asince stand but also worked closely and built stronger Real Relationships with Law Enforcement authorities in other countries, in canada and united kingdom. We we tack at jamaica we have seen a lot of prize and lottery scams from jamaica and we have a specific group were involved in called jolt, which is number of Law Enforcement agencies in the United States and jamaican authorities to help assist the jamaicans in prosecuting these cases there as well as prosecuting caseness the United States but there are challenges with these issues. Let me ask both you and miss cannon, what do you have another your disposal for spotting trends so you might anticipate if something is happening in one location that it might metastasize or migrate to another location . There are tools that you have where you can keep track of things popping up on the radar screen . Absolutely are. Our primary tool is our consumer database addiction. We get complains from many consumers and also get complaints from men Law Enforcement agencies and entities such as the bert Business Bureau and we routinely track, analyze and look for trends and look for increasing spikes in order to find targets to pursue. Miss cannon . I mentioned in my testimony that we have a Consumer Response Department where we accept complaints from consumers and our office, the office called the americans we look at the complaints that are submitted by and behalf older consumers routinely and look for trends and spikes as well. Some of the information that we cull from the complaints, if appropriate, we send to our enforcement division. We also will develop education materials depending on what we find. The part of the purpose of having this hearing is the expository nature of the services you all have. I will tell you as a regular guy, when i was caring for my parents i had no idea about the types of services that were available no would i have been completely cognizant of the risks out there. I want to ask mr. Harris the question. You said you represent your guardian for 600 people. How did those people get to you . We often have referrals from judges and will come into a Housing Court and will be called by a judge. Weve had the referrals from Banking Institutions as well, neighbors, all sorts of people. So would you estimate their are a lot of people out there who do not have the benefit of your guardianship . Yes i do. A lot of people who are fearful, there are a lot of people who are fearful to call our office because they believe the government stepping in is going to be a bad thing for them. I think if there is an appropriate person out there, friend, Family Member that can help them, that them, that is always the preferable way to go. I think we offer some services that are specifically to help people that is unlike any other organization in our city and state. You have said one third of the people, about 200 of those, are victims of some form of exploitation. Financial exploitation. Did you say by family . By Family Members, often it is a lot of other people. Strangers do it. A lot of people that whole great position people that hold great position and trust that end up doing it, fortunately it can be a Family Member. I am wondering if you could describe some of the types of financial exploitation that seniors under your care have experienced question work. Sure. I remember a young lady, a young lady to me, she was older but she is still young in spirit, who is exploded by a woman who styled herself as a personal banker. She would go to the same bank, large Banking Institution for years. She worked for a company that produce books and other things in the city, she and her husband had amassed a small amount of money, about 300,000. This person befriended her, would sit down with her every time she came into the bank. She started to reline her to write checks for the bills. She bills. She ended up taking about 300,000 from her. We ultimately were able to recover the money from her. We have also had people who were exploited and gone to the hospital. A gentleman 90 years old went to the hospital, met a cna at the hospital, volunteered to be his caregiver and installed about 500,000 from him. Those are just some of the cases that are see. Some of these are so personal. I dont know if all of you but i think some of you said a lot of people dont report it. I would think when families are involved that it becomes even more difficult. How can we encourage people to protect themselves to actually report when family or a trusted friend has clearly exploited them . How do we break through that . I think a few things. Obviously the Community Members its very important to get our word out. For us, our Campaign Pass it on is premised on the notion that Senior Citizens helping other Senior Citizens in spreading the word. Not being ashamed to talk about broad set of happened and to protect each other. That has been the focus so far. Consumer education has been breaking that barrier to get Senior Citizens to talk about and break the barrier. Y was just going to say that similar to the ftc, we are out and about and encouraging reporting of abuse. It is something that almost needs a mass Media Attention. We have the money for train the Trainer Program and we are out and about. We are training people constantly about how to spot and intervene when fraud is active. To partner with Senior Citizen organizations like aarp . We are very slow office with 57 million constituents. The only way we can effectively do our job is if we connect with a service provider, state, local government entities, other federal partners. With organizations that are on the ground providing services to seniors. Many of them have and will engage in the smart training for their clienteles. Mr. Chairman class class one short question addition . I wondered, does the state attorney general have any role in helping your office with financial exploitation . Yes. In terms of some of the bigger cases of people who do systemic exploitive things, they do get involved, file life suits as does the u. S. Attorneys off office as well. I have to say, for me one of the biggest tools we can use is to get to the Smaller Community groups, to go to churches, synagogues, other places. We work with a small agency on the west side of chicago called south austin coalition. They know the people, they bring folks like myself at least two people from organizations to, talk to smaller groups. I have generated certain cases where we have been able to help people from those groups. Im not sure how much some of the folks on the south side, website, or north side of chicago are looking at bigger Media Attention or reading some of the brochures that are really geared towards helping the seniors. As simple as you can get it and as grassroots as you can get it, i think that is the most effective tool that ive seen help. Let me just say i would really like to meet further with all of you and talk about ways we can partner on this. I look forward to the Committee Following up on this. Thank you. The lady yields back. Thank you mr. Chairman my thanks to the distinguished panel for being here. I hear from constituents all the time about being bombarded with robo cars from scammers who have spoofed their phone numbers to look like a local call. Like a state or federal agency. And they will do that to scan them out a personal and financial information. Indeed my wife has received such a call in new jersey. Someone claiming that we were in the rears with the internal rubber new service. She chose quite appropriately not to return the telephone call. She telephoned me in our office looked into the telephone number and it was someone who is skimming constituents i would imagine across the country. I have introduced a bill with grace mang of new york city. From the democrat and chairman america is the barton of this committee called the antispoofing act of 2015. I would encourage colleagues to add them in that bill. It would target caller id spoofing, expand protection of the Communications Act of 1934 to include spoofed tax messages and voice over ip calls. Mr. Kaufman, the ftc runs a do not call list, would you please explain in detail what my constituents and others who are on the list should do if they believe they are being called by scammers or organize in violation of ftc protection. Thank you for the question. Robo calls are huge challenge. The first word of advice it is if you receive one, hang up. I hope those were viewing this hearing will take that to heart. Do do not respond to such a call. The Technology Issues are challenging. It is called become inexpensive to blast millions of phone calls. We are bringing in lawenforcement actions but the caller ids are spoofed and it makes finding perpetrators challenging. One thing we have done at the ftc that is innovated is done some public initiatives to get people interested in robo calls and how to block calls. We have had four separate events that have been successful and we are continuing to pursue. We also try to get them on the do not call list. And one of the counties in new jersey that i represent one of the residents was being telephoned by those who claim to be from the county sheriffs office. It was clearly inaccurate, fraudulent, the sheriff of that county of Somerset County new jersey has taken appropriate action but it happens quite frequently. How did that at tc and fcc coordinate to combat the scans . We corneille quite well with them we have calls, we are careful that we are not overlapping in terms of lawenforcement actions. We try to harmonize our mutation as well as we can. I do not know much about your office, i understand you are appointed by the chief judge of the Circuit Court of cook county, is that accurate . Is that true of all of the counties in illinois or just cook county with several million people. It is only in cook county that there is a Public Guardian like myself. The other are appointed by the governor in various. By various counties. By various counties. What has become a problem some of the counties are so small. Then do you report to the Circuit Court of kurt cook county. Yes i am an appointed person on each of my cases. We have to report to the court on an annual basis. We file inventory. We also file a yearly accounting and goingson of the ward. And what we have done with the wards. We also file a yearly annual report with the cook county commissioners. Thank. Thank you, good luck with your continued work, it is certainly a matter of strong public policy. As well as the other members of the panel. Ill back my time. The gentleman yields back. We recognize another gentleman from new jersey. You have five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. I want to ask mr. Kaufman, a variety of consumers dance emerged during tax filing season. One of which is a form call from the person who falsely claims to represent the irs. I think that is what my. Will the Ranking Member yield. And happen to my wife personally yesterday. I thought he was saying that when i walked in but i wasnt sure. Thanks. So is this the scammers are very aggressive, they use use personal information about the victim that seem legitimate. It definitely has affected many constituents in my district. Im not making this