Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20140627

Our International Partners and all of our partners, information sharing underpins almost everything that we do. Information sharing enables vast networks of partners within our department across the federal interagency within state, local, territorial, tribal, nongovernmental, the private sector to act on their own and in concert with each other and other partners to effectively address challenges. No organization be it federal cabinet department, local police department, nongovernmental organization, a publicsector entity can take on these challenges alone, and so we must work in concert with each other and the sharing of information underpins all of that. The last five and i think its a very good one and we highlight it and report on the review itself is that the aging nature of our infrastructure does cause concern i think nationally about its resilience. And it is why when the president issued the president ial post attracted 21, we evolved our approach, our National Approach that Critical Infrastructure protection, to think about Critical Infrastructure security and resilience. And not only resilience against human caused challenges, but recently and against the range of challenges. You mentioned earthquakes and other types of naturally occurring events, other types of vulnerabilities into thvulnerabe or abilities that come to try to think about how do we better design a security and resilience to our infrastructure as one of the key ways that we will achieve the type of Risk Management to achieve our Homeland Security goal. We will wrap up with the secretary cohn start over here. As you know during the cold war the public didnt have much role in the trends that you mentioned before the looming threat of the kind of technologies into the individual actors acting alone possibly sometime in the future deploying weapons of mass distraction. Have you looked at how to engage the public and what is the public role and it had to be international because its not enough so it goes back to the International Cooperation. Remember to get your nam give and affiliation. I am with the project. Over here. I teach at the catholic university. All of the presentations i didnt see any case about religion, and it certainly extremist fundamentalists will play a big role in this problem as it has developed. Does the department have a particular focus in this area both domestically and internationally . And one more right here. How has the nature changed this . And let me take those in order. Its interesting the statement that in the cold war the public didnt have much of a role in the turns. In a sense about the entire thoe Civil Defense mechanism in which the individuals were taught what to do and what to ask was both for a protective perspective but also to create something of a deterrent effect. And so there were efforts to engage the public in the Civil Defense efforts during the cold war. Today with the distributed nature of threats and challenges, the pervasiveness of Information Communications Technology Every person has a role about actions that can impact the resilience of the United States and so efforts like that if you see something Say Something campaign that originated in the Transit Administration that has been used by the department of homelandepartment ofhomeland seo a number of different partnerships with jurisdictions around the country are important ways that engage public on specific challenges. But the underlying point is the public must be engaged in all of these activities and one of the key ways that we do that is to share information to provide ways of acting and also to engage in activities like the review. One of the things we wanted to make sure that we did is not conducted a review in a vacuum for a small set of decisionmakers but rather, could we do a review of the strategic environment of the risk environment of challenges and strategies and then make that as public as we can, provided that information to people across the nation so that they can understand the challenges that we face, the opportunities that exist in the strategic environment into the way for individuals to be involved whether that is through organized volunteering, becoming a part of the civic organizations, nongovernmental organizations were in the actions we take each day in the structured process i guess we see something Say Something or just individually on their own and their communities. Theres a widthere is a widef motivations that motivate people to engage in violent acts. Obviously ideology is one of those and it is a focus not just for the department but for the u. S. Government as a whole. One of the things we do note in the review and it is an important finding into something that we want to help we want to learn from and help jurisdictions around the country learned from his there are certain aspects that depend on the ideology but in many ways the acts of Mass Violence present themselves in similar ways and challenges to the Emergency Response organizations and they present similar indicators and stressors so what can we learn from these events of Mass Violence and those motivated by particular ideologies and those that are not motivated by ideology that are motivated by other means or by nothing at all to look for common indicators, common intervention points in common ways we can prepare to most effectively respond. On the last question in terms of the cyber Threat Landscape and i wouldve brought him back to the site or Risk Landscape i think the changes have been dramatic since the last quarter well review into the are going to be traumatic between now and in the next quadrennial review. Going back to the pervasiveness of the Information Technology connecting people, the nature of that has changed remarkably over the last four years and the connection and the use of those technologies will drive the way we conduct our daily lives and we conduct business and we operate our infrastructure has created huge opportunities has led to increased threats and has led to increasing vulnerabilities see another on vulnerabilities that needs to be addressed into the nature of the population and infrastructure have increased consequences both direct consequences and the potential for the cascading consequences. As we continue to move to an tod industrial internet and to an area of things connected to things and machines connected to two machines doing work that will only increase. We continue to be a tough challenge and source of strategically significant risk going forward. I want to congratulate you on getting another quadrennial review out. I know the feeling. And i joked before and often when you finish one of the history reviews people say what are you going to work on now and i know very well all of the challenges that remain hea ahean the execution if it is a daunting challenge for the the department of Homeland Security so we appreciate your time. [applause] excuse the informality. Im going to introduce the Panel Moderator from my chair. We are very fortunate to have the former assistant secretary Paul Stockton who was also a Senior Adviser here at csis. Heres a moderate our panel, paul was the assistant secretary for Homeland Defense and American Security affairs and the department of defense. He also led in part plea in septembeto play inseptember 201y hagel to cochair the dvr to shooting. He began his career with senator Daniel Patrick moynihan which is one of my favorite facts about him into the policy accomplished in all of the government service, but also currently served as the imaging director of phone com llc. Please welcome paul. [applause] thank you for that generous introduction and for hosting this very important events. It is true that as assistant secretary of defense i had the privilege of bringing the dod capabilities to bear in support of the department of Homeland Security and many other occasions. We found sometimes the left hand didnt know what the right hand was doing. It reflected a broad lack of cohesion across every part of the federal government. Thats why the unity of effort and initiative is so vital and its historic, its transformational. Unity of effort is going to enable the department decisionmaking to be much more transparent and much more can he save cohesive on the budgeting and budget execution and the department of Homeland Security. As a vital enterprise and the quadrennial Homeland Security review is going to provide the analytic and strategic foundations thats going to help turn the vision of the unity of effort and initiative into reality. Although secretary john sends unity of effort and initiative is absolutely vital into just what the Department Needs at this moment is also is insufficient. Let me talk about the distinction between the committee of effort and what we really need in the department. If in the disaster response. Governors dont work for the president. How do you think asian together to end the state capabilities and federal capabilities and state guard forces under the command of governors under the command of the president. You do it through the unity of effort. Its what the department of Homeland Security needs today. When the cohesion is lacking and such opportunities for progress on now underway thanks to the leadership of secretary johnson. Ultimately, one person really is in charge of the department of Homeland Security. That is the secretary of the department. And i look forward to the day when the unity of effort has been successfully accomplished and when thanks to the q. H. S. R. Qhsr i look forward to the day and engaging all of you in helping to make this happen. Someday they will be the unity of command in the department of Homeland Security and the secretary of the department will exercise the kind of authority that routinely the secretary of defense an and the secretary of state and the heads of other federal departments routinely exercise. Now let me turn to the introduction of the panel. First, David Berteau its wonderful to see you again. David is a Senior Vice President and vvictor of the csis National Security program on industry and resources. He is also an adjunct professor at Georgetown University and lyndon b. Johnson school of Public Affairs and served in the department of defense under for secretaries. You would think that he would wise up at some point. Anyway, david, its an honor to sit on a panel together with you. Thank you, paul, for that very kind introduction. He gets to serve unde under a lw that secretaries and choose those that run over rapidly in the cycles if you will. I want to look at the three things in my comment this morning. One is how this qhsr is a step or whether it is a step in the right direction in strengthening the departments Risk Assessment and Planning Capabilities if you will in looking at the resources that are aligned with that. I want to compare a little bit to other quadrennia quadrennials because they seem to have a lot of them these days. Since its inception, the department has had challenges that included a lot of what i would refer to as boundary strugglestruggles into pieces ar issues, this is bureaucratic boundaries. Its useful to remember that between a fork in the third of the department of Homeland Security spending is not on Homeland Security that government functions that existed before dhs existed within those entities whe will e moved into the dhs so there is an automatic contingency on the boundary inside itself. In addition roughly a third, sometimes more than a third of the total u. S. Government spending is not on the department of Homeland Security. Theres other agencies across the federal government and finally of course as it has been mentioned both by the secretary large parts of Homeland Security dont belong to the federal government at all. That is the First Responder part of it if you will for getting the real First Responders are in the public who happened to be first on the scene. Each of those were on boundary issues if you will and its in the particular program or support for the resources or funding of the personnel in or out of the hs inside of where it fits. Its even the unity command in the department of Homeland Security is still going to leave you with a host of boundary condition issues for which you have to deal. And i think it has to fit inside of that. We look at the hhs spending and the spending grants i would refer you to report that we released a couple of weeks ago. Somewhere around 40 to 45 of all of the department of Homeland Security spending is on the contract grants of it penetrates into those conditions if you will. So i think this qhsr does a reasonably good job of thinking in spite of those contexts if you will. When the Administration Proposed creating the department of congress of course proposed at first but the administration had a better idea so they put their own proposals on the table and it was compared to the Defense Department, the largest reorganization since the creation of dod. It took 11 years between the National Security act of 1947 and the Defense Department evil thing into the structure that it basically has to date with the forces and military forces in training and equipping and providing the forces. In the Goldwater Nichols act of 1986 was passed and took root so its useful when you are reviewing to keep that kind of a timeframe in mind if you will in terms of assessments. Income pairing this one and the other went to other quadrennial review is coming into there have been five inside of the dod and six if you count the one that wasnt cold the qdr and others are picking up the idea that it is useful to do this. One of the tensions that in place is how much attention do you pay to the funding constraints. The Defense Department policy that the qdr was informed by the budgetary constraints but not constrained by the budgetary numbers and this becomes difficult. One of my favorite quote is a wall street analyst that said i cant read this report referring to the 2014 qhsr. It doesnt have any numbers in it. Im an english major, i used to reading things. If it doesnt connect to the budget, then you have to ask what is the impact if you will. But the important question is not whether the revie review ore report is constrained by the budget. But in fact what is the important the question is how do the budgets and programs and resources take the tradeoffs that are either explicit or implicit inside of the qhsr and reflect those in the budget. And for that i think that we would have to wait until the budget is submitted next february or march. Its whether by design or the result of inertia. They are assembling that the budget and some knittin submittt and the president will submit it. That i would point out by the way is the only one that the secretary johnson in his tenure as the secretary of Homeland Security assuming that it only goes to the end of this administration january 20 at 2,017th, it is the only budget that he will build and defend in the congress an and then actualy gets to execute. Its the only one. If hes there for the full two or three years of the term that is the only budget he will get to do and to end so the timing is perfect and the capability that they provide is a useful input to that so the value is how this will help to shape the tradeoffs in the range priorities in those budgets. And maybe potential even in the fy 15 appropriations in the house thats marked up there in the Homeland Security appropriations bill that senate is marking bears up as well and there will be an agreement that will have an appropriation if you will so it is possible that some of the priority tradeoffs implicit or explicit will be reflected in the 15 budget but the place where the department has to bring to bear is in the 16 budget. I would note that it is not enough guidance. You can read this and it doesnt tell you all you need to do to make those tradeoffs. There will be Additional Guidance required inside in order to reflect that in the budgets. I would also note that one of the things i look for in this and didnt find much of this its testing those priorities and the tradeoffs and all of the risks that were highlighted in the secretarys remarks against the real world through exercises and through what we call in the military wargames although they are not much more of a game. There wasnt much attention to that i would hope and assume that its going to be reflected in what the implementation sho shows. It shows what kind of testing they defy and that can be done appropriately and in a timely way to be reflected in the 2016 budget. The last thing is what surprised me the most about this. I have a disclosure here. I was a consultant and i worked on the study group in the Homeland Security planning and capabilities development. And that study group looked at how each part of the dhs did its own planning and how it used the result of the planning to translate into votes resources and the expenditure of the resource to develop capabilities. And we did a very nice report. I brought as a prop that sort of meets the requirements on both sides about 200 pages with input. I believe that the final 2010 qhsr itself has maybe one paragraph that took from this effort if you will. So, if you judge the effort to result to be discouraged in that part of the process that was still worthwhile because what it did probably for the first time as it got all of the different parts to talk to one another about how they do planning and how the term planning into capabilities if you will so i thought it was worthwhile even then but then i picked up the new when it was issued last week and what i saw is that this doesnt just sit idle for four years. Dhs was using the input from the qhsr in the Community Development and in the host of other areas and also. I frankly was first of all i tend to be a cynic when it comes to the government taking advantage of prior work. To see it done very well im not sure that ive seen that in many other quadrenniaanyother quadred many other departments. It is a step in the right direction. The real value will be tested by how it translates into budgets and plans and implementations, and i think the unity of effort approach offers some positive opportunity that we will never see the results in nine months on the fy 16 budget goes to the congress. Congress. I would also submit that the dhs being able to use the risk approach that it was outlined as a part of the defense of the budget should help a lot in terms of defending the budget vote on the hill, perhaps even more important of the office of management and budget and so i really i cant wait until the fy 16 budget comes out. I know all of you share that with me this morning. Thank you. Thanks david. Now the honor of introducing matt fleming a fellow at the Homeland Security study analysis institute, and let me say one of the nations leading scholars expert on Cyber Security. Its great to have you here on the panel. He worked on cyber issues in the United States department of defense and directed a number or cybersecurity programs in the past and as a is an adjunct pror at Georgetown University and has a perfect background. Please, take it away. That is extremely kind of you to say. Good morning. I would like to thank csis for the honor to be here today and say that it is a pleasure to see so many familiar faces on the panel and in the audience. Before i begin i should say that it might be easier today. Im here to talk about cyber, and so i should say that for those that dont follow cyber committees continue to be exciting times in the field of cyber. We have had some really interesting policy developments in the last year plus with the executive order 136. The policy directive 21 both of which are related to the Critical Infrastructure, cybersecurity weve seen the cybersecurity framework. Somehow these manchin or touch on cyber directly or indirectly. Certainly there have been many high profile events. Many of us may have been victims, perhaps targets. The targets breach. There seem to be breaches every day. It may mean something to some people that it is certainly seen as one of the most significant events in recent history. Snowden of course still hangs around the implications of Edward Snowden in his relief of information release of information. We live in a world in which the internet of things is here and certainly coming in which we will have sensors and jet engines they already talk to the front of the plane and the mothership and those on the ground is a little hot and maybe what that means is the rapid expansion of the attack surface. Then of course we have seen this indictment of the chinese pla operators and whether this goes anywhere. We will see that it is a very excited time in tiger and that is a good thing and a bad thing. So, i am here to talk a little bit about what i see as what does the qhsr say about cyber. Cyber. Where do i think we have seen the biggest changes since the last qhsr and i do have a couple of criticisms i may leave until the questions. I would like to start by saying i would like to congratulate what i think is a really thoughtful document. And its the kind of documents that at least i know i will be using and digesting and reading over the course of the next several years as i do my own research for the dhs and Homeland Security issues. Some of you may know christ from the Naval Institute and hes posted some comments on this version essentially saying throwing praise and i would like to align myself with his views. Allen put up the four main goals of this qhsr about things like strengthening the security resilience of Critical Infrastructure, securing the domain, advancing Law Enforcement and Incident Response and reporting capabilities and strengthening that ecosystem. None of this is necessarily new. These are issues the department has been working on for several years but it is a perhaps more detailed overview of what the department is doing. And so, you know, in the face just thinking about strengthening Critical Infrastructure we are talking about increasing information sharing and very popular phrase but an important idea in cyber. Increasing Situational Awareness and there are discussions that some of you may have seen about the weather map that the dhs talks about. We hear about the position of the sensual services we dont label something Critical Infrastructure because it makes us feel good. The important is that we have to need in our society for electricity and telecommunications and other things. And what we care about and the reason that we protect the Critical Infrastructure is so that we can continue these provisions of the season to services. So i think that it brings out this important insider of continuing the provincial services. And there is a discussion of interdependencies and cascading effects very important. We live in a world in which we have very obvious interdependencies but also quite as obvious interdependencies and so, much attention needs to be paid to understand these better in their cascading effects and this was also highlighted in the National Infrastructure plan so this is a positive. There are some discussions in securing were debating purchasing in the federal government. It seems like a good idea in the budgeting earlier you mentioned the budgeting. This would save some money. In the cyber tools if you follow cyber at all and the dhs, you will have heard things like einstein or phrases like continuous diagnostics and mitigation. These are important programs is not extremely important programs to the department of course they are called out in this qhsr. We see more in this about advancing th the lawenforcement Incident Response reporting capabilities, detouring into disrupting cyber crime, and then of course the idea of strengthening the cyber ecosystem. How the dhs could work to drive innovation and Cost Effective Solutions Throughout the ecosystem conducting research and development and transitioning the findings of the efforts into practice is quite important. I would say that in this version we see the articulation of the cyber mission. A lot of the stuff was in the last version but it seems to be less direct. I think that is a great thing. And then we see of course as alan mentioned the discussion of publicprivate partnerships very important with information sharing and other aspects of cyber. To draw out a little bit more the differences between this and the last i think is this greater emphasis on Critical Infrastructure, and perhaps it isnt surprising if in the policy environment on the of the executive orders and president ial directives that certainly i for one work in this field is a perhaps i would say this i applaud this focus on the Critical Infrastructure and the interdependencies and this idea of the cyber physical convergence. Physical harm can be caused of course. Cyber harm can be caused. Also important. Theres a greater discussion of the responsibilities particularly with the dhs and the department of defense. I even get to this emphasis on Law Enforcement. And i would think that i find as i read this that there is an articulation of the threat and vulnerability. In the interest of time i have a couple of criticisms that i will leave those to the questions. Thanks. Next, we have doctor marc frey with the csis Homeland Security Counterterrorism Program and a director in the office of steptoe and johnson. Previously doctor frey held positions at the dhs including the chief of staff for the office of policy development and most notably, the director of the piece of lever program to the visa waiver program. Thanks, paul. Its a pleasure to be here on this panel. I will note before i start ive may be the only person on the panel that is an alumnus from the dhs and not the dod. At some point you may find me rising in the honor of my organization as we go. I was also involved at least in a relatively small degree in the formation of the first qhsr. And so, im going to talk a little bit about that and a little bit about how this is different in the way that. My focus is going to be on the border flow issue. And in some ways that is the easy one and this is where i go back in the first process. Thats one of the areas perhaps in opposition to cyber into the counterterrorism where that doesnt have a lot of other players in the space that they have to find some of these battles with the three mentioned. Border security, managing the flow of people and goods. And it was a component before the dhs was established. And if so, a lot of the time that we spent in the first qhsr was fighting with some of the discussions with some of our interagency partners on the proper role and responsibility for things like hunter terrorism and in particular Cyber Security into some of those dates are ongoing. So the border is a little bit easier. Its also worth saying before getting into the document that is an area where they have had a tremendous amount of success. There is now a unified space at the border and there are now programs particularly in the trusted Traveler Programs that do what alan noted which is the risk segmentation and this shrinking of the haystack. To find one bad guy in the flow of millions upon millions of people were goods. So brisk evaluating based on the provision of that information, information sharing, International Cooperation and thats good in the trusted Traveler Programs like the relatedly cargo side, also all very much to the good. And so, operationally the dhs has had a lot of success in doing this work. Is it to transition to the current and whether it continues the success or builds upon the success, i think the good news is first about a lot of that role setting debate is largely over and they now have these five Core Missions to play, and in particular it has the role in the Border Security. But i also think that its become not so complicated, but one of the things that the qhsr doesnt touch on enough but needs to do more of in practice is this International Engagement that alan talked about. Its there and its providing some lip service actually how that happens and how they left rich the Large International footprint into some of its programs whether it is global injury membership to partner countries and establishing the preclearance facility in the countries, there hasnt been in my view as much rhyme or reason as to how things are established. For example the list of the global number countries i defy anyone to define the pattern as to why these countries were chosen and why its panama i can see that some of these other things dont make sense and why some countries are not included. So i think to the extent it could drive a more coherent and holistic look about how they are in the International Partnerships and that is one of my main criticisms about how the border section is addressed. I also want to followu follow e plaintiff david made him that the proof will be in the pudding. The documents had out a very interesting framework particularly with respect to the borders providing the different flows into these categories that the marketdriven and non marketdriven and will help drive responses. On the one end to prove will be and how they are made, and it doesnt surprise anyone if you look at the record of the previous qhsr, the budget decisions and spending decisions are not tracked very closely with the document. Now maybe we have learned from that and we will have a better success, but that is where this matters. If not it is just a document. Its a compelling document and well rooted for the government document that was in the process of god knows how many interagency processes and revisions and so it will always be useful but it will only be effective if it drives these budgetary decisions that david mentioned. It will also only be useful if it drives operational decisionmaking. And so to that point, i want to touch a little bit on a followon that i think was there when allen was concluding his presentation about the Campaign Plan for the southern borders of this is inactive followup memo following the unity of effort that has gotten quite a bit of attention during the talk in the various panels which i agree is a good start but needs more cohesion. But as a separate discussion but i think the key part of this memo on the dhs and her component plan for the southern border is that it explicitly ties this plan to the qhsr and the analytics and of the themes addressing and in fact it assigns alan as the assistant secretary for the border plan and how to set outcomes at a target for the border flows. Im sorry that allen left because i would ask and the review is supposed to be approved by june 30, so it would be great to know if that is taking place, but the broad point is we will not only see budget fairly but hopefully operationally if the way the qhsr starts talking about or is talking about thinking about these issues is put into practice by the very component of the agencies and i will make two quick points and turn it over to you to conclude. This goes back to the previous discussion on the border metrics into technology. I think the potential value of the framework established in the border is that its done right and can help provide us with the metrics that we need in the larger border. One of the things that is in the Community Forever is how do we measure the control in the border . What does the operational patrol mean, what is Border Security and that has implications both operationally and legislatively in the debate and all sorts of other reasons, so if you think about the way that they direct us to i think that can lead us to coming up with a better match wrecks with respect to the different border flows and that would be a very good thing for the dhs enterprise. And then the final comment i will make and maybe this will be something you can talk about in the discussion is obviously the qhsr is looking strategically if not down in the weeds on these issues, and its not easily applied to issues that pop up that you dont expect or that you havent prepared for. But i would be interested in asking allen as well how you would apply the principles, for example, to the current minor issue that we are experiencing on the southern border and how the way that the Analytical Framework would inform what is now a crisis on the border and how what policy operation decisions and budgetary decisions should be put forward to solve that and i would happily take questions. Thanks. Thank you mark. Now it is my pleasure to introduce aussie notes in the excellence of the csis program at Homeland Security. You are responsible for much of that. Congratulations. And ozzie is now with cross match technologies where youve accomplished so much in your career. Welcome. I appreciate it. Its good to be back. We have the bases loaded or nobody is on. I think that my colleagues have cleaned the base is already so i will try to keep this short and i appreciate the opportunity to be here. The document is a demonstration of the department and after ten years it is only remarkable. Its a pretty impressive document and when i sat down to read it i thought i would be overwhelmed that it was the opposite. However there is a lot to be done and often the documents or the target pane dot us for the media and the pundits talk about how fluffy they are and what they do not accomplish but they are coordinated in the effort and its the point for which all other actions can take place. Im here to talk about the counterterrorism section and i was thrilled to see counterterrorism has remained a cornerstone of Homeland Security. Very important with the killing of bin laden that there has been a desire by many to put this nuisance of terrorism behind us and press forward onto the larger issues of National Security. But terrorism unfortunately is here for us to stay. The u. S. Spends more on its military than the next 13 nations combined. Maintaining the conventional military force is no longer viable for the nations or entities that want power in this space. Its a great return on the investment and asymmetrically means that cyber and it means wmd which happened to be three of the Core Missions that we have identified. So put on top of that, theyve mandated cutting across 22 departments and agencies from the federal to state and local and having to protect an infrastructure they dont really own the and then do it under the auspices of the years of the departments and agencies that interact with the American Public more closely than any other department in the government. Its incredibly difficult. What has made this even more difficult in the realm of terrorism is that we have been a victim of our own success. The dismantling of the al qaeda core has pushed us back down where we want it. Bin ladin was able to bring those entities together into a formulated a strategy and now we have pushed it back down. It makes it much more difficult. Its like dropping and breaking glass on the floor. You can pick up the big pieces where the breaks are with the others that you may stand how do you track those an in its diffit until you step on them and that is what the dhs has in the counterterrorism perspective. The threat remains. We see this issue of the defenders inside the United States and the question was brought up earlier but motivates these individuals . It doesnt matter. It can be today, it can be an interpretation of religion and tomorrow it could be a Domestic Group or something else. We just dont know if you cannot single those out. You have to be able to protect and prepare how the threat of may unfold. Thats one of the things i think is good about the document is they talk about how terrorists are going to potentially attack the United States or threaten us and they talk about the issue of active shooters and the importance of the transportation sector. They also bring to the forefront the issue than improvised Nuclear Device. If we think 9 11 changed our view of the world you can only imagine what a Nuclear Device in washington, d. C. Or new york city with a change our view of the world so they have a difficult mission. I will talk a little bit about risk security. I think the riskbased security approach is a brilliant we have done it in our lives and the dhs actually is trying to codify and documents themselves and they are leading the u. S. Government in this field. We cannot protect all people from all things all the time. We have to figure out how to do that. We have implemented programs recently to get that done. One of the things we have to understand as the American People is that one riskbased security means we are going to assume risk. We arent going to get it all and we have to have priorities which means it is going to be in the budget cycle have and havenots. They will get the money into the lower ones arent. I was very happy to see the document take that on. One is a former pilot and i would like to list. Im going to just wrap up the things i liked about the qhsr and things i didnt like about it. I like the thoughtfulness and complexity of the document and the fact they took on the hard issues and they mentioned things like the fusion centers. They shied away from them. I like the fact that they try td to put some definition behind the taxonomy which has been intellectually lazy to have partnerships and we will have information sharing. Now they are starting to define the Partnership Means and when our both sides going to get out of that. I think it is forward thinking to talk about the black swans and they mentioned something they dont know. They mentioned they dont have it right and that this is only a snapshot in time. I love the document in the back that talks about the basic rules in response of these. I think that every enter daily to agency should put that on the table. And then last talks about actual consolidation in things like the fusion centers. They are saying we need to make internal changes. Things i didnt like about it but i think is too complex in many ways. They covered everything. It was thorough and there were still some lingering dhs language in there. On the counterterrorism perspective i do not like the term loan to offenders. They are terrorists. They are not defenders, those are people that dont pay their parking tickets. I dont answer the question about how and my panelists talked about that. That. The last big issue to be the department who want to be is congressional oversight. And they didnt mention that in the document. Thank you for the opportunity on the panel. Thank you. I promise it will end promptly at 11. All of you are busy and important people but that does leave us with some time for questions. I have one in my back pocket but im going to be for to all of you to start right up in front. I am a deputy secretary of Public Safety and Homeland Security for the commonwealth of virginia and i appreciate and perhaps exemplified the mentioning of the state and local governments as a part of the Homeland Security enterprise. Im interested in concrete examples perhaps or concrete suggestions for how we can strengthen the effort for those of us occupy in the middle and at the bottom depending on how ones perspective is calibrated. Who would like to answer that . Im going to turn to the mission which is towards the back of the qhsr that essentially takes commissions and breaks them down into the goals if you will this is the place i was particularly saying that we need Additional Guidance on how this is going to translate into the resource. Resource. I was focusing on the budget but i think the same thing is true. What i would do if i were you as i would look for the places where the goal of wines with virginia in your case where they need to have better federal interface and ability and effort or focus or resources into go from the bottom up inside that Mission Framework and thats how i would take this document and turn it into what you would do. I have criticisms of the document ima or may not get through. There is a discussion of relative responsibilities. But cyber as mark noted is a team sport. Sport. Less so than Border Security. And i think that that could have been pulled a little bit more to expand on. What is it that actually one state and local and private citizens to do i really would like to see mor more of that. Wells has a question . Introduce yourself pleased. Im currently working International Issues with the department of Homeland Security and worked in the pentagon for doctor stockton. I share the perspective of one of the panelists on the tremendous successes theyve had since their creation yet i think we all look knowledge that there is still significant challenges particularly in the unity of effort. As i was hearing in the commentary i just jotted down a few of the challenges ive noted being behind the scenes now everything from the logistical to the multiple different sites dispersed real estate across the area, personnel challenges we dont have a cadre of the professionals yet. We dont have the Goldwater Nichols that has encouraged the joint structures that theyve had the advantage of or the culture as well as capstone guidance that really direct the components in a way that the dhs hasnt bought into so that lead up to my question on the distinguished panel which is of those and perhaps others that you would note what do you see is the biggest challenge and were you in the department of Homeland Security right now what would be your focus for improving lex who would like to take that one on . [inaudible] i think it is easy to talk about the problems. I think it is worth david or paula said we do have to keep some perspectives particularly on the timeline. We are a little of her ten years into this reorganization. And in the beginning it was pretty fearful and it took folks several years to say im legacy customs and to say no, i am cbp and things like that. And even when those issues are solved and you have other then r interagency issues with what is the proper cyber role and others and in fact what is the proper role of the International Programs in the department of state so those things are all there as is the fact that you can go spend your entire day going from a meeting between the tsa and everywhere else. I think that the biggest problem we are facing is getting their particularly if yothereparticuln historical context. I think the problem is that there just has not yet been enough of the internal institution building. Things that the dhs and otr things that are successful are successful because the Senior Leadership including the secretary and the assistant secretary is focused on and if they are not focused on them they tend to just sort of happen or not happen and perhaps some of these more mature departments have been the Senior Leadership is asking for daily updates on this issue. We have time for one more question. Thank you again for your time. Im if the center for the study in congress. My name is somerfield. I have a question for you. You used the phrase we have sort of less specific interdependencies and i was wondering what you were thinking when you were saying that if you could go more into that when it comes to cyber. I might have said that we have obvious and nonobvious. So we know we have an apple convention that i need power. I know i need power but there may be others. They realize theres something going on in the background of the connection that i havent thought about or as we see the Services Roll out for example that ride the internet protocol and lots of services. You can have your home and your thermostat. Do we realize that in ways we perhaps havent thought about. So if we move to those that are sort of part of the internet of things are rethinking that somebodys glucose monitor or pacemaker might actually require not just a battery on its own but connectivity in certain ways and we need to think about those. And of course they are much more importanimportant and Critical Infrastructure. Than the Critical Infrastructure. I hope that helps. Thanks to the distinguished members of the panel and all of you. Your citizens into partners in for everything you are going to do to drive forward the resilience of the United States. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] this discussion is Available Online at cspan. Org and we have more coming up on the cspan network. Coming up in just under an hour remarks from president obama on the second of a trip in minnesota. The president will speak in minneapolis on the economy and the minimum wage that is scheduled for 11 50 on cspan. On cspan2 at noon a look at how the Health Care Law is impacting insurance rates and what to expect in 2015 hosted by the alliance for Health Reform at 12 00 here on cspan2. Also congressman john dingell the longestserving member of congress will speak about the institution and how its changed since he was first elected in 1955. Thats from the National Press club and again over on cspan at 1 p. M. Eastern. A Washington Journal Program spent the whole program talking about legalized marijuana. We posted a question this morning on facebook asking whether he would support legalized recreational marijuana. Feedback on facebook. Where people could not come into fort knox and say here is 100, i want to get the gold valley. That was as a consequence of big bad problems of american government, the government got in with its debt. It just didnt work out. There was a deficit, a trade deficit. Author and conservative member of British Parliament Kwasi Kwarteng talks about the history of money, its relationship to war another to impact worldwide free markets saturday night at 10 on after words, part of the tv this weekend on cspan2. This month honor on my book club were discussing amity shlaes the forgotten man. Start reading and join others to discuss the book in our chat room at booktv. Org. Booktv, television for serious readers. Next, some of Foreign Policy magazines top global thinkers of 2013 including a pakistani peace and women rights activists, an economics professor who helped debunk a leading economic report on austerity and a film maker. This is from the university of denver. Go. Well, welcome back. We are celebrating Foreign Policy magazines top 100 global thinkers in 2013, ma from the university of denver. The Korbel School of their national study. Ive to say that, just a couple of words about the university. Yesterday we celebrated our 150th anniversary, which is [applause] and i cannot think of a better way of starting out our next 150 years than this event. It is an array of folks discussing an array of topics that you will never, you just dont find people with these skills, these credentials on this knowledgebase, able to talk with People Like Us not all of us a special but let me turn to our speakers and i will reintroduce them. First, father ishmael come a feminist, excuse me, peace activist working for the entitlement of young women. She is the executive director of aware girls, pakistanbased ngo that she cofounded at the age of 15. Works to empower women through training and advocacy. The organizations many mentees include fellow global thinkers, a pakistani schoolgirl who became a global inspiration after surviving an assassination attack by the taliban. Then we have michael ash. Michael is a professor of economics and Public Policy at the university of massachusetts amherst. He is one of our coauthors of influential essay, thats high public debt consistently stifled economic growth. In this essay, he and his coauthors point out errors and economic studies, thereby undermining intellectual foundation for austerity programs that slashed budgets and social spending around the world. Last but certainly not least have steve, a filmmaker who used a technology to find out what they believe to be the lost city in honduras. The use of this new technology has transformed the field of archaeology and raised awareness of the importance of digitally preserving Cultural Heritage. The format for this will be that i will address some questions to each of our speakers and then leave about a half hour of time for our audience members to ask one question each, and they must be questions. So we will get started with it. First, you founded your organization aware girls when you were 15. I know what i was doing when i was 15 years old and if you think back what you were doing in the audience, it probably was not what you were doing. Can you give us some indication what led you to do this at this early age . What was the context of this extraordinary thing that you did . Well, i grew up in a culture where women were oppressed and the relationship between men and women were like master slave relationship to women were more like considered objects rather than human beings. Women and girls are taught to be the obedient wife and daughter, and they only talk to be in the home to start a family. And i also grew up in such a culture all around and expensing oppression, ma but i was born in a family and as having a father was a teacher and human rights activist. So when it was a child he used to bring us toward books which talk about equality. He brought newsletters from different human rights organizations. He brought different documents that showed how women, girls and boys are equal and they must be treated equal. He also actually moved because my father wanted all of our sisters to get education. There was no school for girls in our village. So i had the support of the father and civil society, and all these things help me speak up against the issue and establish aware girls at a very young age. When you did this at the beginning, were you speaking with other girls your age or where you immediately attracting with adult . When we started it in 2002, we were engaged in child rights movements and meeting different women, Inspiring Women leaders because of this and my father was an activist so he knew some inspiration from women. We met them as well. We were six, seven young girls, like all the age range was 14 to 16. So when we started there was like no women or adult leadership because some of the organizations that claimed to work for womens rights didnt know women representation at the decisionmaking level. Mostly women and girls [inaudible] but not at the decisionmaking. So we started by gathering ourselves and then we started work with the young girls. First we bunch of because all of a sudden the expense working in organization, working for womens rights. So we wanted to pare ourselves with other women working on womens rights. We worked with him for a few years and we start our own work and we started to work with young women in the communities. Your organization is expanding immediately from pakistan to afghanistan. These are different set of issues, different cultures, different challenges. What this is going to be like moving into can send . Like the situation in afghanistan has a very direct affect on institutions on the air where i live. I live very close to the border of afghanistan. So if there is an incident or any issue and that side of pakistan it has an effect on afghanistan. The both the cultures are same, both have [inaudible] and the tribal culture. So they share the same cultures, same values, same traditions. And the situation affects on each side. So if you want to have stability and peace and you want to bring change you have to give people are closer. Were working on giving young people conflict resolution and pakistan. Recently i spent one month and i sit and hope tell the same hotel [inaudible] i engaged with my 300 young people. I would like to share a story on our network in which i guy joined our group and it was for the first time for him to attend any such movement led by young women. It was like he saw for the first time in his life that women and girls can meet. He was so much inspired he went back to the committee and said you know, the people who are in the religious schools, they do not have any comment base anything because there arent not the religion but theyre not taught about science and math. So we initiated a girls resource center. In the first year he enrolled eight students. Use a computer, and in the second year he unrolled toward the end people in that resource center. So we are actually expanding this network to afghanistan and which afghanistan will be worked with more than 200 people and 50 of whom will the young women. We will be working with them on peace building, nonviolence and concept conflict resolution skills. These young people will identify of the people in the communities who are at risk of extremism, they will work with them and show them the alternative view and dissuade them from violence. Trying to resolve the conflict in the kennedy, so conflict resolution skills like mediation. We have already started and the program in this month in march. Are there where boys in this organization . Yet to actually the our circumstances around where we are eating boys at the Peace Program because we think its very important to be both agenda if want to have peace. Its important. In this program we have a gender balanced group and we have another in that we engage boys, young boys, and organize competition on the role of young boys. For the first time for the boys we have extracurricular activity, and for womens rights and was really changing the situation for them as well. Because they never knew [inaudible] some of them were like okay, as we now know that we ought the call come we will make sure we give the rights we are equal. Even after that one of the boy whose sister withdrew from School Actual by his parents, he then enrolled her in school. So we do have boys in our different programs. Programs. I understand that you have had some experience in monitoring elections in pakistan. Wichita a little bit about the . Yes. Actually, in may 20 133 elections in pakistan and it was for the first time in august and that one democratic garment was handed over to another democratic garment. It was in itself a huge victory. We built the capacity of more than 100 female monitors and observers, and we absorbed the only bemoan polling stations in the rural areas. And it was like they were huge crowds of women at all polling stations and they were there, instead of the commission, and instead of the mismanagement. They were there to bring an effort and sharing the democratic history of the country. But as 50 will turn out, turnout was very low, like in one of the districts among the 21 polling stations come the turnout was as low as 24 . Among the 20 polling stations it was as low as 20 . Even one of the polling stations was closed. Their words visual polling, zero votes from women, and he was shut down because of the elders from the community. And the Third District there were 25 polling stations and the voter turnout was as low as 8 . There was another polling station, a female polling station which was completed shutdown because of the aggressiveness of the community. Like they were not allowing the women to express themselves. But there was a Positive Side as well. Like many of the observers for the first time i observed all of the political polling process, need to be involved in counting and overprocessed. It was very powerful for them as well because they were there to contribute in that process. They were some observers who were not allowing them to go because there were many threats, and i remember when they were leaving in the morning, they were not sure whether they would be meeting each other on a. But they were very much determined. Its time to bring a change in pakistan and we have to put our goal. Its the time and will. It was a Positive Side as well and on the other side. Also there were a few problems, you know . Astonishing like [inaudible] they were certain challenges as well, like they were numerous challenges but still the women were there to bring to change. Wonder if youd be willing to talk a little bit about the advocacy for reproductive rights of women in pakistan . This is obviously a complicated issue spent yes, youre right. Is a very, very complicated issue. In pakistan girls who were under 18 years old, they should not have access to information on sexual and Reproductive Health and rights. And also the young women, especially the young women [inaudible] aids, teenage pregnancies, unwanted pregnancy and other childbirth complications. Thats why we thought its very important to work on this issue, like every year in pakistan 890,000 abortions occur. So we are working to respect. Hiv aids program with engaging young girls in school. Were building capacity, organizing them into groups and establishing a club in the schools there and then they train young girls, they get information through pure education, education, role playing, into the communities neighborhoods. And in the Abortion Program you have established a hotline. We are getting information about that and it can be used [inaudible] the girls can use it without doctors. We do this according to the guidelines. All this information has been given into all the local languages. We expanded this hotline to the lucas time balochistan. We also expanded this hardline, about safe medical abortions. Its not necessary for us or were not as you advocating for the legitimacy or against abortion, whether it should be given ar or not, but for us the most important thing is this saved the lives of the women who are dying unnecessarily each year because of these issues. You have recently done some research on the role of young women in emerging democracies. Could you share some of the issues that youre researching, maybe some conclusions you have arrived at . I conducted this research in washington, d. C. , with the support of National Endowment for democracy. And i think that engagement of young women and democracy and politics is very important because women constitute more than half of the publish of the world. If women are excluded in these processes, that is not, its not a true democracy. Its not a syndicated. Its important to engage women at the decisionmaking level and the Political Party and not just numbers of women in these parts but engage them in the decisionmaking level. Its at the invitation of women and politics has been very insignificant all around the world. Like to say now there are only 32 countries who have reached at least 30 or more representation of women in politics. That really needs to be changed. It really needs to be enhanced because when ever that our women in politics and democracy, then women think about certain issues like child care or about the other developmental issues. So women participation, ma i think its not a luxury but its a requirement and it has to be, like women have to bring a change and raise their voice and make their voices heard at the bigger level. Thank you, saba. Id like to turnout to steve elkins, at a completely different topic, which is arranging technology. Id like to come if you can summarize what is this first . How does this work . First of all, im not an engineer but i will do the best i can. We are not either. [laughter] basically its a machine that sends out millions of pulses of laser light per second to scan an area. You can scan this room. You can scan the ground. You can scan pashtun scan the cause, what have you a. It works much like raiders does. The beans go out, they reflect of everything and the comeback. With airborne which is what we use, and moving airplanes, each data point that we get back has an x, y and z corbett so we get three dimensions. The reason that happens is the plane is moving we also get signals from gps transceivers that we plan on the ground certain distances away from our target that allows the computer and the lidor machine to know exactly what position in space the lidor device, when the returns come back. Back. So they sing at these millions and millions of pulses of laser light every second you were flying over the joe, most of them get reflected back by the league and the tree canopy or whatever. And enough but, unfortunately, made it to the ground. They make it back to the plane. In our case were looking for archaeological ruins come interest in the returns that come back from the ground that give us some kind of imagery of what those Services Look like. It gives us an elevation model. So it shows is the ground smooth, bumps, so and so forth . When you see bumps that are in geometric shapes, certain layout patterns you can pretty much concluded this must be a village or a city or a pyramid or a glass or something else. So it is not Ground Penetrating . No, that is Radar Technology which works very well but the resolution of Radar Technology is much larger than that of lidor. You can detect really small objects. Weve tried radar and it didnt work so well. So you are looking for patterns of . We are looking for patterns. And then when we find the patterns come interest in actually with their Software Tool measure the height of the mountain, the length of the mound, with of the mound. And based on previous experience of archaeological sites the archaeologist can go yes, if it looks like this it probably is this. So moving from that method, that tool, how does this help us preserve Cultural Heritage that obviously this is your not just laying around doing this, looking for offsetting. How is this went up to our Gynecological Research is . Okay. And a couple of different ways. First, with the advent of airborne ride our. Com weekend skiing anywhere quickly. And presents it mightve taken decades for teams of archaeologists and the grad students to walk back and forth and back and forth in whatever trained in hoping youll stumble upon something. Now you can quickly fly the plane and in da a day or two ift wanted years worth of trekking over the train. So we are able to catalog these Cultural Heritage sites very quickly and discover new ones. But pretty send i think lost cities will be a dime a dozen. That are all over the place. Actually were finding areas where other people are doing it, areas where we thought there were no people actually are quite well populate an agent times, a new revelation. But as scientists have thought that but they had no proof. Secondarily, lidar doesnt always have to be used from an airplane. There are people that go around with little handheld lidar, i call them bobble heads. You can go walking israel, turn on the lidar in an intimate or to have a complete digital archive of everything in this room in three dimension, every person, every feature on the face, every architectural detail and you can then store that on a hard drive, or whatever medium you want. And it is therefore of the. You can recreate it. So how does this affect archaeology and Culture Heritage . Its a great way to preserve Cultural Heritage. Perfect detail very quickly. And your linkages to the archaeologist, you find the places where cities and it existed before. You then turn it over to the archaeologist the . What is the linkage between you as if america and the archaeologist . Well, the linkage is i cant, im not an archaeologist. No one will believe if i said those patterns are a city. They will say you are full of it. Why dont you go make a movie . We have have scientists on the team. Thats what happened. Before we started, in fact when i started the project at first we didnt have archaeologist. We didnt have the money. I did want to pay them unless for some patterns worth looking at. Once we got them then we hard the archaeologist to come in. Did we find something or not. Could you tell us about the lessons through not . A great lesson. As i said earlier during the lunch, in 1526 or thereabouts, cortez, the famous confused door was going all over mexico and Central America heard of these legends from the aztecs and the mines and other indigenous tribes at the time that there was a this fabled great city of gold, wealthy and fabulous that was out there in the hinterlands, the jungle of whats now called very, very rugged terrain and sued by most people are familiar with the jungles to be one of the toughest jungles in the world. So that started over the last several hundred years, a lot of people tried to prove or disprove this legend. Namely Treasure Hunters hoping they would find all the gold, including the country stores. And even academics timepiece to doors. Because of this this legend has become part of the cultural most hondurans grew up with some kind of legend about la ciudad blanca. They know somebody who knew somebody who took them there or they had some metaphysical experts out in the jungle or whatever. Everybody knows about it but its just like torch washington and the cherry tree, became a legend that nobody could prove or disprove the. The academics argue back and forth, yes exist, no, it doesnt exist. So part of what i want to do is prove one way or the other. Did it exist or did not . Walking to the jungle would not work. You can walk all your life and not see from here to the end of this auditorium could be a giant pyramid and you would never know because its all covered with dirt and trees. Its another hill i had to walk over. With lidar you can see a very quickly. So now were hoping to go the on the ground with a team of scientists who will find out exactly what culture these ruins the lucky because nobody really knows. I guess one sidebar to this, and try and organize the ground expedition it has now become much more than just my documentary, become kind of a political football of sorts but the government declared the area that we found these sites and as a Cultural Heritage preserve come at you need a special permit to go in there. And they also are joining a unesco by a reserve. Cities places are all protect on paper and theyre actually quite beautiful. Unfortunately, during the last couple of years weve been looking at satellite and aerial imagery and we see that the area, protected areas are shrinking to illegal logging, narcotrafficking, just clearing the land for cows, whatever. The problem being that the government of honduras may have good intentions, or some of the people they have good intentions but they dont have the money. They dont have the resources to protect it. So consequently from the publicity weve got them particularly from the Foreign Policy global thinker article, i went to washington in december. I was approached by the world bank. The world bank said, we think this is a worthwhile project. They are and a little bit of feed themselves with some of their investments in Central America, and they think they this could be something that could make amends. So we are hoping to exert, to get international, an international directive, get funding from the world bank and the this area on the world spotlight. Its a real jewel of the place. About reserve is wonderful. There is a lot of information to be gleaned from this. And hope is that eventually all this work, we can develop a Research Center deep in the jungle, and the only within will be by helicopter. Once you build a road, forget it. Youve lost all control. And control who goes and. Scientists from around the world be able to study the cultural patrimony and so on. Kind of like what people do in antarctica. Anand by doing this, this area would become protected because it will be people from all over the world coming there all the time. It would be very difficult for people to go in and start deforesting it without getting a lot of global attention. To you have another project . No. This is the . This is my swan song. Lets turn to michael ash. Weve had a bit of conversation about this article already. I think there are some of the things we would like to explore. Before we start with some of the broader questions, id like to ask about the usage which i found interesting. The word incorrect stylized fact, which tell me about that spirit thank you, gregg, for having us and for the question. A stylized fact is supposed to be kind of like he might have called a fear. Is supposed to be a fact that is true in a wide variety of pieces. So after reading the rinehart and robust peace, we were supposed to come away from that believing that high levels of public debt of the rapid collapse in economic growth. Yes, you can see this in the postwar advanced and a short economy. Yesyes, you can see this in developing economies after 1970 and yes, you can see it in the 200 year history of public debt and growth for what has become the advanced economies. So thats a stylized fact. And what incorrect means is its not correct. [laughter] what has been the fallout . Obviously its had an extraordinary impact. Could you lead us through some of the responses that youve gotten from all different sides . Actually i want to definitively not take credit for setting off a firestorm. I dont think that the reinhart and rogoff created austerity at a dont think that our peace we opened, you know, all of a sudden pointed out that there were problems. I think reinhart and rogoff had a ready audience for austerity but they were already clouds broiling commune, the government in great britain, the European Central bank and european commission, the House Republican caucus in the u. S. So i think there was a ready audience for austerity and that reinhart and rogoff provided some intellectual i will say foundation. I will say structure for. Similarly i think by the time 2013 rolled around, the failures of austerity were manifest. Children going to school hungry to give a breakdown of the social contract thats been in place for roughly 60 years happen at the point. People wanted to ask why did we get austerity and why has this gone so badly . I think there is again a ready audience for our paper. That said, i think our paper was very effective in we opening the debate. One could look more convincing than theres a cliff after at 90 public debt over gdp. If we walk over the cliff, help your country. When there is a cliff at all, as far as the eye can see. I think that opened up grounds to talk about whats really the relationship . Is public debt affecting growth or much more natural direction when you have a recession, tax collection false, public spending rises and, of course, you get a bit more debt. I think were able to have that conversation again and i hope that our paper contributes. One of the things that we as academics struggle with is being hurt. And i think economists like to say that you can do extraordinarily good work and sometimes its very difficult to translate that to Public Policy language, Public Policy debate to ordinary citizens. Not that you should speak for your discipline, but would there be some benefit in getting economists able to participate in some of these debates come not between the journal, but as public intellectuals . Well, let me say by way of abbreviation that reinhart and rogoff peace that one of the things ive a very powerful about is that it is very simple and straightforward method. Devices country into high debt years, loaded heres an ask out of the countrys growing those years. So to its credit it removed away from the very complicated mathematical formula should and just had a very straightforward argument which began as i said was incorrect i think. So i give it a lot of credit for having that kind of very up front way of discussing it. If i encourage anyone to look at ours, these are paper its that are full of pictures that thinker easy to interpret, tables that divide country into very natural ways to have a discussion. I dont know if many of you read paul krugman in the near times but i think economists have improved a lot in terms of reckoning their arguments to a listing public. A very robust debate in economics. Its probably relative from an academic perspective. Which is not to say youre not. But what we need to i think what we saw in our panel, the first group, we need access to good information. We need access to good analysis and citizens. And i think its incumbent upon all of us to try to translate when we do need to translate. I agree very strongly, and i have to say this has been im disappointed in my global students. Its been a disappointing six years for a dictator, when we go through and look at the forgotten lessons of the past century, its really quite remarkable, as basic lessons of keynesianism that deficit spending to reduce unemployment, that hard money, the insistence in every debt, that every debt, every private debt be paid and that inflation has to be checked at all times. These are really poisonous ideas that were learned very clearly during the Great Depression. And guided Economic Policy for the 30 or 40 years. And then they rapidly for forgotten so actually been very discouraging to see those forgotten lessons of the 20th century. Could you maybe broaden the conversation a little bit from austerity to economic inequality, which is gotten a lot of attention, certainly by pundits. And can you talk a little bit about that issue as an economist, its effect on political unrest, please . Yes. Thank you for asking. There has been i think almost all of you know that theres an enormous increase in inequality. I think very important since to repeat it was not always thought that we spent the better part of the middle 20th century with greatly reduced inequality, inequality blossomed rapidly after 1980 and there were policy reasons for that increase. University of california, berkeley economist and his french colleague have done a beautiful job of documenting the ushaped trajectory of inequality over the 20th century. The inequality dropped radically because of the new deal and the Labor Movement and similar movements in other developed countries. It stayed low and to about 1980 and then it started a very aggressive upward climb. I was irrelevant because i think it can relate. Things can be done about inequality. Inequality is not natural. The occupied moment i think was very effective at bringing the 1 and inequality to the forefront. Its important to understand the dimensions of in the baltic to the distance to the top, the amount of room at the top and amount of room near the top and the pathways from the bottom to the middle and go to things that are very valuable the policy. We saw decades of exactly the response as you would expect when you would invest in a widely shared infrastructure and human capital. We saw inequality drop rapidly. Those institutions went away and sure enough inequality has reared its ugly head. I dont think we need to see inequality as a permanent fixture on the landscape. I do think it will take a lot of organizing and a lot of policy to reverse the course. What are some of those policies . Thanks for asking. So let me begin with i think we need a prime mover. I think its very difficult to picture income inequality without reworking the editions of the capital and labor balance in this country. I dont know what the next set of institutions will look like. May be based on other movements that are yet to be envision. I think we working the basic balance is a core. Another policy at a broad level and i will go to narrow ones is the role of financing our economy. Finance he needs payment. So good first start simple would be to enforce doddfrank. Its a very good bill. Theres a good summary of it now after the music stopped. I recommend that book highly. But the era of finance and the era of finance, the mortgagebacked securities that got us into the absent fix in 2002008 or the increasing financialization of nonfinance corporation, a big juicy take things like tires and cars instead now make loans and shift assets very profitably. So i think gaming finance is a key ingredient to controlling inequality. More practical policies, i think we should look at an increased social wage that the United States has finally cracked open the universal Health Insurance. We are not quite there but they have made inroads. Quite clear our pensions need another look, and education, particularly Higher Education is going to need serious help over time. The minimum wage and wage subsidies like earned income tax credits play a role at bring up the very bottom of the dish a vision. But the core in the middle need some sort of we negotiation of how most people work for pay. He didnt say anything about taxation . Im certainly in favor of progressive taxation but i think that more effective we just a visual happen if institutions of labor market our redesign. People are being paid a fair wage right at the point of contact. You do good work you should expect to have a career in front of you that can support a household, to people, both working 50 hours a week. So again im not opposed to highly distinctive taxation. Dont get me wrong or right or left, but [laughter] but i dont think thats where the main engine comes from. We are at the university, michael, and you just said something about Higher Education, theres more than one way of tackling inequality. Can you expand on that although the . I come from a large public university, and there are some similarities and some differences. Ill speak from the university of massachusetts amherst, ill speak from the large public mindset. Theres been a very substantial reduction of the state subsidy for public Higher Education in this country over the last generation, and that shifted the burden largely on families who do this either through savings or through debt. And it makes taking the risk of going to college very unattractive, you know, first in Family College attendance but really frankly to perfectly middleclass people, the idea of emerging 20, 45,000 in debt is quite daunting. So i can picture i can picture free public Higher Education, for example, as one direction we might talk about. I wish we could picture that here at the university of denver more clearly. It is an extraordinarily difficult nut to crack. A lot of institutions private and public are going to need to cope with. I think its time for some questions, if we have some questions. We have three very, very good presentations. Would anyone like to start . This question is from michael. You mentioned the fundamental redistribution between how labor relates to the capital in this country as the fundamental way to change inequality. I agree that i dont see how that happens. So what are the steps whereby the power difference and capital can be shifted . Thank you, thats a great question. And its very hard to see. So on the eve of the Great Depression labor was i think 2 unionized in the United States. Akamai think during the biggest depression of century is not the best time to go after your boss for a raise. Call me crazy. Nonetheless, it was during that period and almost virtually overnight that labor went from 2 to about a quarter unionized. I dont know if traditional Labor Movement is going to be the engine but i do want to suggest that the shift can happen very quickly. I mean, we are seeing a lot of frustration with both the degree of inequality but also the degree of stagnation to let me offer a thought that there may be, and this might be too optimistic, that the capless may find themselves unable to live with the current configuration. So the current crisis, a good moment for settling scores, fixing all a bit of the pie this way, but over the long run there has to be some model of a growing, sustainable, a sustainably growing economy. So we may see forms of extreme edition that we dont expect from the cooperative movement, for example. Maybe reinvigoration of the puppets of the Labor Movement. Its very hard, you know, i never make predictions, especially about the future. Im thinking of yogi berra. I do think we are coming out of crisis of the engine. University of denver has a very nice slogan, which is, and its working for the public. And i think that the idea of a democratic or republican educational system has been attacked in a way i found shocking. I didnt even get the idea was happening until a couple to skin a talk to me about owing 100,000 for a masters degree, which in International Studies does not translate usually into something that is easily paid back. So i was wondering if theres a way, i mean, if you could comment on the issue of how to present this debt crisis in a way that it seems to me would be natural to talk about as a democratic crisis, that is, why does the banks should throw the money out of individuals and there should be some kind of public education, the higher levels. It seems to me to be a big problem. So i which is those that as a question. Ill just oppose that as a question. I think the question speaks for itself. Im a little bit at a loss to say it any more clearly than you have. We want an economy that needs human needs your so one way to set people free, to innovate and build new businesses, right beautiful books and poetry, to make sure theyve had an education that doesnt shackle them to very narrow set of available opportunities pics i think think about kind of the democratic citizen of the 21st century that there has to be somebody who is set loose from certainly worries about bill health ruining their life or student debt ruining their lives, or frankly retirement ruining their life. So i think we can do much better than we have. We have a wonderful innovative and rich society that i think can build support that will further humanize us. I dont know if that answers your question. Would you like to comment on education and institutions of education in pakistan and how they do or do not promote some of the things that michael was talking about . I think working for human rights in pakistan i did not strongly advocate for education and pakistan, and the reason is that as i assure you, the education system, it teaches about the tradition nonvalid. It teaches girls to be inside boxes. It teaches about [inaudible] with actual i worked with so many young people and the people who are illustrated are even more open to different ideas because they are not directed in a certain direction but theyre open to many new ideas big are open to learning but whenever the people, College Student or University Students have a closed mind, they have already grown up this mentality, this perception about society, that history difficult for us to unlearn all the things i learned all the other things that been taught for years and years. So i did educate for quality education, but not only for education that is already here. So are you suggesting that institutions of education are the issues . That once people start participating in those institutions, as currently structured . Exactly. I think the structures of institutions in pakistan need to be reformed. One of the things it is a lot of work needs to be done on changing the curriculum of institutes. I think its the responsibility of the Educational Institution to go through all the things which are not good, and i think teachers are also the product of bad [inaudible] it should be some Capacity Building programs for the teachers as well. But how they can teach better, how they can teach certain, actually values on i think institutions has to put a very, very Important Role in this. They do have to. Thank you very much for all the information and thinking youve shared with us. The friends i am with have certainly enjoyed. This is sort of the question for saba, and its going to seem like its an aggressive question but its not meant to be. Here, im involved in a group thats dedicated to electing women, and we have the idea that things will be better if more women are involved in running the country. But this may be a stylized incorrect stylized fact. Because i was thinking, saba, when you said that one of your goals, too, and you think that will lead to better conditions and i was thinking, is there any empirical evidence to support that . I was thinking about it. On the, about about in their county, about thatcher but i do know that we have any evidence that having women in positions of power has made things better and i would like to know if you have any empirical evidence coming out of pakistan that it might be helpful as it happens . Is not aggressive at all. Ill just commend to this question that when ever, you know, men are in the power and when they are at decisionmaking, nobody questioned them. Nobody asked what they did or what was a positive thing, what they did for betterment. But when it comes to women representation, whenever it comes to women at the decisionmaking levels, but ill discuss okay, what change will you bring. It might not necessarily commit might be a situation would be the same of any discussion of any new position but i think its also our expectation from women. Its a double burden on women that we expect and if these are i think these are certain restrictions that okay, if women are at decisionmaking level than they have to show. They have to show some progress otherwise a reminder you can see all of the program at cspan. Org. We will leave the last few minutes and take you live to a look at how the Health Care Laws impacting insurance rates in particular what to expect in 2015. This is a discussion hosted by the alliance for Health Reform. Live coverage on cspan2. Towards the ones that are still open. Good afternoon. Im at a howard with the lis Health Reform and i want to welcome you on behalf of senator bond, senator rockefeller, the board of directors to this program on Health Insurance rates including the Market Forces and the regulatory structures that affect them. Every few days it seems we read about insurance rates