Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20150212

The cms initiative has contributed to an estimated 50,000 fewer patient deaths in hospitals and 1. 3 million hospital acquired conditions saving 12 billion over three years. Medical review strategies have resulted in over 5 billion of savings in just the last year. He are working to transform medicare into a highvalue paler with payment is based on quality and not just volume and we remain focused on preventing waste and abuse and fraud before it occurs. This is not just about cost the threatening than a Beneficiary Services and a host of other problems. Since 2011 we have been using the system to provide advanced analytics on all the feeforservice claims. The system also incorporates beneficiary complaints and works with numerous other inputs to generate and prioritize further reviews and investigations. Cms takes administrative action to stop problematic behaviors through the suspension of payments and medical review of claims and a removal from the program. As we recently reported to congress, the advanced analytic system has a dirty generated a five to one return on investment and another component is the the strength and provider and will thereby verifying the the legitimacy of new and existing medicare providers through a risk taste approach and we are screening those that pose the highest risk of the Program Using routine data checks of lifeinsurance criminal records scheduled and unscheduled site visits and fingerprinting. We have removed over 450 medicare it enrollments since 2010 and importantly denied thousands of enrollment applications, which means that these providers never gain the ability or lose the ability to in building Medicare Program. These examples have been positively acknowledged i do gao. And we are engaging with the private sector in new ways to better share information and transfer insights into action the Fraud Prevention partnership is made up of 38 private federal and state members and continues to gain membership and this has completed studies that have helped us to take substantive action and the president s fiscal year budget includes a proposal to allow both public and private partners to support this Irish Partnership by providing funds, see nss made important private sector tools in operation including prior authorization and the use of automated claims and this net hundreds of millions of dollars in savings every year. Finally we are focused on moving the Medicare Program away from feeforservice reimbursement and by paying the number and we are testing different payment models were provide all is are held accountable for the quality and cost of care and providers have a financial incentive to coordinate care for their patients. And we have sent explicit goals for this work and this includes payment models and tying 60 by the end of 20 and i ultimately care most about the health of patients, which i am reminded of daily and our Health Care System should offer in the highest quality and most appropriate care possible to ensure the wellbeing of individuals and population. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you member tickets Ranking Member cummings, i appreciate the opportunity to discuss the efforts to improve our position management this includes expanding the frontiers of knowledge and capabilities and opportunities in space in here on earth. By the very nation the nasa activities are high risk and at the same time we recognize a critical importance of managing the products as effective stewards of taxpayer dollars. And this means delivering them on cost and on schedule and identifying risks as we can implement appropriate corrective action. We have made significant improvements that are already yielding results particularly with our small and medium platforms. And we have seen a significant number of products and several projects have launched within their baseline including juno and the mars atmosphere and just two weeks ago the soil moisture active mission and this includes a development of significant number of new technologies. Which present greater technical risks, but even in next greatest observatory in space that was confirmed and has exceeded its original baseline has benefited from improved process. This has remained on track to meet the new cost we have established in accordance with the new policy three years ago. It has evolved over time as a probabilistic joint cost and is Level Analysis enables us to estimate the probability of completing a project within a certain lifecycle cost and schedule based upon individual products unique technical and programmatic characteristics and a benefit to this policy is what it brings to the analysis process and this includes the cost, schedule, and technical risk and the earned Value Management capabilities. The guidance provided to the nasa community through the recently released project management handbook as well as nasa routinely reviews the earned Value Management data with regular meetings at the center of the level as well as an ad hoc meeting as it arrives. We rely on the knowledge we gain to improve our management processes including we are on track to read meet the scheduled commitment. And we appreciate the open dialogue we have had is we have improved this capability. And im confident that we are on the right track to the Improvement Program management. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. We will continue and we thank you for your patience. The committee will come to order. I thank you all for your patience with both of us we obviously got delayed and i would actually like to start with the chairman of one of our subcommittees and subcommittees on government operations. The gentleman from north carolina, mr. Meadows for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman thank you for being incredibly flexible today and really i guess the underlying concern as we are celebrating and its not a very high benchmark really if you look at the components of that it is does making a real concerted effort and we look forward to all of you putting this together. Doctor, let me come to you and i will send you a text and i want to compliment you i sent you an email and i want to compliment you that on a weekend you responded via email, which was shockingly surprisingly and i just want to say thank you do you have the enrollment numbers that have been resting from cms and have they given us you . Thank you for the question, happy to be accepted. The answer is that i think we are still working on it that is an agency, that i dont have direct oversight. And that they are working on assembling those numbers. Especially for making sure of that. What youre saying is that you have not seen the numbers for the automatic reenrollment, you have never seen any totals . I have not. Its my understanding that we have those numbers and we have been trying this. I think its just confirming that the numbers are some we can stand behind, they are numbers we can release, i believe that the cms is in touch with the staff. We have been in touch they have not really been in touch from a followup. It is amazing to me that we can have the Response Time that we can did this with spanishspeaking operators and we know that down to the second and we need to get automatic remoment numbers from cms. When can we expect that . Let me go one further because i have limited time. Lets look at medicare going from 14,000 lines of code to 68,000 lines of code in terms of medicare reimbursement is that correct . Yes. We need to start going to other codes. And they will calmly at an improper payment of fraud. You know, obviously the importance, why would we go from 14000 codes to 60,000 codes and how could that make it more efficient. First let me say that the agency is adopting these codes and with the input, it was really the provider communities searching for this and the ability to really define exactly what they were seeing. Let me ask you i went through and i looked at your codes and we got codes and one in particular says if youre unexpectedly missing your big toe yet you should get a code. There are six different codes for swirls sofa by few if its the first time if it scratches you, do you not see that we have unbelievable lines of codes and this will not make it more efficient . There is one in here for spending too much time in a freezer its incredibly ridiculous of images tell you that the positions that i talked to and the hospitals i talk to are spending billions of dollars in compliance trying to figure out these codes and yet we are going to increase those by fourfold. Why would you do that . I believe there is a code for a different kind of tax and i dont imagine in my own practice using that one or one of the others. Is a mouse a rodent . I think it is. But i think we have a different code and what im saying is that if its so complicated, you make it so, kid that nobody can comply. The agency is a recipient as other agencies are. What about implementing the Program Integrity . And that includes at some point we are required to implement this and that is the codesigned itself is not something that cms is engaged in but designed to improve epidemiologic situations to make sure that it reflects what is going on in the real world and that providers have had it extensive input. I dont disagree with your point but i think that we are a recipient as other agencies that are implemented across the world my time is expired and i yield back. Thank you. We recognize the gentleman. Cms has undertaken a number of initiatives including improper payments in the Medicare Program including about how they work and how effective they are and what you see for the future. I would like to ask you about these today and this includes suppliers that have historically pose a higher risk of abuse this heightened screening process that are attempting this in the Medicare Program or revalidate this. Can you describe the different riskbased screening level designations and the various requirements that providers are subject to . Sure. Provider categories are subdivided among three risk categories and as we go up the chain of risk more screening strategies and approaches are implemented including whether they are newly enrolling or revalidate them. The highest number say they have automated background checks that will be performed for all providers to ensure adequate licensure and level criminal background or felony record that would keep it out of the program, but in addition to that, high risk providers face fingerprint background checks, a multitude of different screening approaches for the highest risk providers and that includes those that are attempting to reenroll after having a Program Integrity action taken against them in the past. The result of all of this work today we have revalidated over a million of the million and a half providers enrolled in medicare and the totality of all this work on newly enrolling and the validation is that we have removed the billing privileges of over 450,000 enrollments in medicare today. And so i can tell you that the new enrollment requirements are also allowing us more applications at the financer never actually make it into the program because they do not qualify. That is what i was about to ask you as opposed to chasing money you do some preventative things. Is that right . Yes, i think that a lot of it solidly lands in the preventative category because it really is designed to keep folks out of the program that dont belong. So if we can duck this visit and to terminate your nonoperational as a provider, you never make it into the program or if we check the licensure and determine that you are not appropriately licensed or you have a felony conviction would keep you out of the program, we deny the enrollment application. Asking about this Demonstration Program on power mobility devices, how does the agencys prior authorization demonstration of power mobility devices complement the Program Integrity assets. Thank you very question, one of the central challenges in the improper payment rate is that there is a disconnect between the medical record documentation that underlies a medical service or indicates what happened over the course of that medical interaction and the claim that comes in for that interaction and what it does is allows us to ensure that medical necessity requirements and documentation requirements are being met on the front end before the services are offered as a beneficiary. Generally the way that we approach this is to take a risk based approach and the demonstration was implemented around these mobility devices first and we have put out a proposed rule that would look to expand this and then there are others in the budget bill up to expand it to things like hyperbaric oxygen and scheduled ambulance transportation and that includes what the private sector uses everyday evaluating the service before its provided, determining that its okay and the beneficiary gets the service and the provider gets paid. The beneficiary, is it adversely affected . I think that that is an important aspect. Before the Service Provided the medical appropriateness and a medical necessity or there, it prevents it from being on the hook for a denied claim and the service was never provided. That way neither the provider is on the hook for services they provided but then im not getting paid for and the beneficiary is also not on polk of the provider will get paid for. Thank you sir. Thank you, gentlemen. We now recognize the gentleman from tennessee. Thank you mr. Chairman. Just today the hill newspaper said in an article before signing on increased spending to the highest level ever, congress should is upon this to identify and address wasteful spending and then major federal is the only narrative to submit love alone pass theirs. In another article said pentagon leaders have requested this the jet fighter that has proven to be a nasty drain on resources with no end in sight 7. 5 billion in fiscal year 2014 alone with massive cost overruns and an egregious failure. And over the years i have read so many articles about this and i sometimes wonder if there are any fiscal conservatives at the pentagon. But what do you say, how much you have an estimate as to how much we have spent on the f35 so far . And are you concerned about this that talks about wasteful spending by the pentagon . Thank you for your question, congressman. First, we are always concerned about this at the pentagon and we have a place to address spending in general. Including looking at the overhead functions and acquisition processes dont have the total number, but it has gone down below our estimate since it was rebaseline in 2010 is actually producing a pretty good airplane. And i think its stuck on old news. Do you have any rough estimate of how much we have spent so far . I met last week with hospitals in tennessee we are either going to have to close or go under or could probably be end up sold to some outofstate corporations because of the unfairness in the medicare rates and they said that the system, and they penalize these that have continually lowered beds. Have you looked into this . The difference between what hospitals are this in comparison to in these hospitals are being paid twice as much for mostly the same kind of works. What can you tell me about that. Is the cms looking into this are concerned about these discrepancies at all . I appreciate the question and we do have processes for hospitals to engage us in terms of wage discrepancies like this and i can tell you we have a very proactive approach to what we know exists and reevaluating those codes that it should really pay for valuable services that taxpayers expect that we all want the program to provide. So i think it is there is a process for doing that and we are happy to engage with hospitals and providers on these questions. Years ago a Hospital Administrator told me that he said if you dont have hospitals you dont get doctors and if you dont give doctors you dont give people. There are so many hospitals that are really struggling in the country because of these discrepancies between what they are getting in comparison to some of the wasteful inefficiency hospitals and that is something that we really need to take a look at because its very unfair and i could give you all kinds of statistics about that but i wont bother with today, but its getting to be a very serious problem in my opinion. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. The tone is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. When i sat down, this is my first year, when i sat down to do the geo report i got sidetracked and i want to talk about some other things because one of the things that i found that i think came out today that your agency is reporting that the tax refund fraud would be 21 billion from just a couple years ago and that number stunned me. And i think its more than we spent on the entire department of agriculture, the treasury the sec, the fda, and your irs with that money and still have a couple billion dollars left over, just out of curiosity we could buy 140. And this includes tax refund fraud and thats not all the fraud thats just a tax refund fraud and that is something i want to ask you about which includes her testimony last week for the senate which senator grassley asked her some questions about the impact in this claim that the earned income tax credit for up to three years and we remember this would senator grassley. I dont know if we established what that would cost. If you had a chance to figure out what the cost of the program would be. The 21 million came from, the gao testified that we stop lester about 16 billion with a refund and only 5 billion as our estimate and its still a big number and we are worried about but it isnt 21 or 31 million going out the door with regard to the question you asked this includes the earned income tax credit, you have to have a Social Security number and so we have about 700,000 out there by those who are paying taxes but then on eligible to apply because i dont have a Social Security number. And under the new program if you get a Social Security number and you were, you will be able to apply for the earned income tax credit. If youre working for this the maximum that you can get and spend the range of about five or 600. There was such lack of clarity in the interpretation of what they said. Is this earned income tax credit only going to be available for a to legal immigrants are filed previously were available to all of them to receive Social Security numbers under the new program . If you get Social Security numbers, you can then fire for this year if you are working and if you have earned income in the three years before that, he will have to file a return and demonstrate this with the same information that anyone else would you could get this automatically whether you are working or not. So ob of available to everyone even if they didnt file the previous threeyear. Yes that is my understanding. You have no idea how much that will cost . I dont know how many people will get them. At the white house not ask you . I havent talked to them about this at all. Does anyone at the white house ever consult with their office before the issue of the executive order and if we are aware of doing what the president did by legislation as he did by executive order that weve have to go and get an estimate of exactly what you and i are talking about here today. We did the same thing wed have to know the answer. Donna locke. By the same token we didnt ask you we could ask you about this increase in the example of fraud . We had no conversations with what we aware are aware of. I havent got to the white house about any of this. Thank you gentlemen. We now recognize the gentleman from ohio mr. Jordan. I thank you mr. Chairman. I wanted to talk about the conservative groups and frankly the pattern of delay that we have seen from this administration. Just yesterday in the hill feds wont release the irs targeting documents editor of the hill talking about this in the administration and its important to remember this as well. The day when lois lerner went here in dc again unprecedented right before the Inspector General released a report and talk about the targeting by the irs of conservative groups and a quote from this, remember, she talk to treasury and the white house about this from mr. Cusacks article yesterday and i quote at the informed the white house about the plan to disclose the targeting so that the white house wouldnt be surprised so before the Inspector General report comes out disclosing that and they already knew what was going on and of course we have lois lerner talking about this that cincinnati was a problem and the white house says it is a phony scandal, no corruption which brings me to the gentleman. The very 14th of last year we subpoenaed you for all of lois lerners emails and just a few weeks later in this Committee Room the chairman of the committee mr. Chaffetz, are you going to provide all of the emails and responses yes we will do that. I remember that conversation. You reminded me of a couple of times. Im going to keep doing it because the American People are frustrated about what the irs did to them regarding their First Amendment freespeech rights. June 13, you sent a letter to Senate Finance the thing that we lost lois lerners emails and destroyed the hard drive has been destroyed. I remember that. 10 days later he came back to the room and you asked the question to ask you specifically what date did you learn that you couldnt get all of the emails. I remember that conversation. Your response was i learned in april. So my question to you is today will you admit that you misled congress, and more importantly the American People just like we were doing, would you admit that you misled the congress and the American People enact. Absolutely not. You do not think so . Absolutely not. You told him that yes, we will be all the emails and a few days later you learned in april that that was you learn that you cannot and you wait two months to tell us and you dont think that that is misleading the American People . We waited for those times to find as many emails as we could. Of you said the chairman a letter saying that what you told him on march 28 the yes, we will give you all of the emails of lois lerner, saying that what i told you on march 26 is not true when max. I still tell you that we would give you all of the emails of lois lerner, as i told you before, we couldnt make them up, we didnt have them produce them, we gave you all of them that we had. Then you said that you lost them, you destroy them. Have you done anything to correct the record enact. Actually we didnt do that they were lost in that time in 2012 and when we testified in due, i testify that we waited the six weeks all we try to provide as much emails as we could. Put the next slide. Slide number four. And you said you can confirm that no backup tapes existence you confirmed that we couldnt get this all for emails and youve done nothing to correct the record when he told him that you were going to give all of them to us and he waited too long before you ever had told us that you lost it. We waited till he so we could provide all of the emails we find and 24,000 emails from the time of the hard drive crash and we said it had not existed because it had been rerecorded over. And at that time we gave you this. In the last 10 seconds, if i could. Have you withdrawn the letter . Understanding that now these emails are recoverable on this. Have you withdrawn the letter that you send to the Senate Finance were you confirmed that those tapes werent there . I bring this up because this committee have some experience and in 2011 the Justice Department after making inaccurate statements regarding fast and furious sent a letter to chairman darrell issa and said that facts came to light during the course of the investigation that indicate the letter february 4 the letter contains inaccuracies because of this the Department Withdraws this letter. So what i want to know is when are you going to be with the American People and withdraw these false and misleading statements and the ones that you sent to the Senate Finance. Are you going to withdraw that . We can have this for a long time and by the way we have spent six months and untold amounts of money trying to extract emails from those backup tapes. You said you can confirm that they dont exist . If you go through the records there are no reasons, theres no reason to with draw a letter. We now recognize the gentleman from michigan. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Monday and tuesday of this week i did one town hall in my district and another in my district. The issue that was brought up the same story that was bought in the Washington Post with how they hundred they had hundreds of the rehired, basically saying why can we not get away with the same things that recorded this. It indicated that between 2010 we hired 7000 employees and we had a great jobs program and we are always delighted, but the question comes from my people as to why 800 of those 7000 rehired iris employee is or rehired with prior substantial employment issues, it including the 11 individuals that had access to taxpayer information. And that discourages and frustrates my citizens. But these people, 11 of them engaged in unauthorized access to taxpayer information that is a crime as we understand it will rehire it. Why is that . The bulk of those employers are temporary or seasonal hired for 468 months per year. Followed as the eiji said, the rules and regulations which wouldve allowed those to be applied, we consolidated in 2012 in and all of those hiring issues into our personal purity and i have made sure that if you violated this section 1203, if you worked for the irs and violated this, you will not be rehired. According to kickback they said it still remains concerning because in 2012 and 2013 the irs hired individuals with higher significant irs substantial conduct performing issues and this was subsequent to that. In that report said that this is pursuant and we follow this to the opm rules and they said that we should make sure that before we hire someone we actually reviewed all of this and as i said we now do that and we took their recommendations and i have talked with our personal people sends his started raising this issue, which i think is an important issue in december to make sure that if you are violating the willful violation of taxes or access to taxpayer information you will not be hired. Let me proceed further and i hope that this is a general trend, the identified 141 individuals that had a prior tax issue. Five of them having been filed by the irs management with these taxes, how many of these employees are so working enact. A or seasonal employees and a lot of them dont come back the next year and i dont know how many of those that there were. We take the requirement of irs employees to be tax compliant very seriously and our compliance rate is over 99 . We hold people accountable even if they make modest mistakes we count that is not compliance and what we are concerned about it of five employees that you mentioned that have willfully that have violated the tax laws and those are subject to termination. Can you guess information of people that we are referring to. The 141 if youve had a minor mistake, those you would get cited for, but those are not the basis for termination. And i will find out the information and get back to you at. I appreciate that. What about those and not a tax issue but had substantial prior employment issues attendance issues, misrepresentation of what they were doing is they were on the job. As i said the consolidation we have a personal Security Department that reviews every offer before it is made to make sure we have gone over all of that some personal activities or you didnt show up for work for two days and others are you had a significant problem and we distinguish between those and the rules are very clear about that at just because you had a performance issue in your file doesnt mean that you can never work again for the irs but it depends upon the nature and duration and it is important for people. And it is important to make sure that we have the important people working for us and i take this and im a big support of them because they continue to review these issues and we take it seriously and we implement the recommendations and we are a personal Security Group that ensures before an offer goes out of view violated this, but there are other conduct issues not only are we going to follow this rule, but review those for appropriateness for work at the ira and its important that we do take it seriously, people should be tax compliant. I would like information on those are still employed to came under these 824. This covers a lot. The gentlemans time has expired, we now recognize mr. Palmer for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. We want to give the gentleman a break. That doesnt mean that it wont come back here. Nasa has done a good job making progress on getting off the highrisk list and theres still some issues from alabama in our state and there have been some issues with costs and management and technical issues, can you address that on some of your projects . Yes sir, the process that we go through when we review this on a routine basis we have some that have been really well, we have made progress on the eight out of the last nine, once we go through the confirmation that is when we make a commitment on the schedule. Obviously when we review those monthly, occasionally we have one that pops up and it gives us an issue. We have had two of those and we have these products that we have going, where we are bartko back in the baseline. So when we rebaseline there is a process is there another alternative that we can get this particular Mission Accomplished so that you can still stay within this . That is the process that we go through and each one of those has lessons, thats one of the things we have really been working on continuing to improve the process as we go forth with the rest of the projects. A prior time in my life i worked for a couple of Major Engineering Companies and one of the things that drives a client crazy, particularly the one changing the bill is change orders and we have some projects that i dont know if it has resulted as design changes or a poor design that runs substantial overruns on the change orders, can you address that . Yes, i think the one youre talking about is a ground system that we had and this is the first time that we have actually applied the same project management methodology that we have had in a ground system and one of the things that is an upgrade tour network, they have communicated with these on order and that system is basically becoming obsolete so we ran out and we tried we knew that we had this and we have the private techniques that we have been doing for spacecraft to a ground system and we have learned a few lessons in that process. So first of all, the first one is that we have to be very clear on our requirements much to what you are talking about and understand, making sure that we understand the contractor doing that, we have gone back and forth in terms of trying to define better with the expectations that we have and then managing that contractor in this particular case we have changed up his team and the team that we have in terms of power managing and since we have done that we have managed to stay from an earned value perspective would you say that this is the result of a design that is scheduled or dictated or is this something that we are entering in a new area and you are designing as you go . I think that this is a case where we underestimate the type of work that we need to do to deal with these issues that we have had to do in terms of the software system. I yield the balance of my time. We now recognize the gentleman from georgia. Thank you chairman. Thank you. Since you had a break, i thought that we should come back and ask you a couple of russians in my mind in particular. Based on previous testimony made it clear that the ability of the irs to make progress in the areas that have been outlined by the gao have been largely hindered due to reductions in funding. This is kind of a personal question to me due to my involvement with Nonprofit Organizations but the irs has spent millions of dollars to basically rewrite the governing rules for the 501c4, potentially moving tax exempt status, this is involved in political activities. And so my question is multiple. It is rather amazing personally that there would be an issue of trying to hinder speech of americans in my specific question really comes down to how much money, can you tell me how much money that the irs has an on writing and the attempts to rewrite that specific section of the ruling. I know that it was withdrawn and there is a way to write that. Im curious how much money is being spent. The only money being spent is does that have been working on the drafting of this and so its not a large amount that i could try to get an estimate on how many people work on it. To work on the first version was done before i got there but if you would like, we can try to figure out the rest of estimate and the only time spent was to say that a relatively small number was working on it. And i would note that the goal is not to hinder, as i said when i started all of this the goal is in fact, to try to make clear what the rules are in a way that is fair to everyone and all of the organizations and its clear and easy to administer. Right now the rule that has been there a long time is that you judge the determination whether youre a lift off with the 501c4 or whether you are performing under the statute by facts and circumstances. Anyone running an organization wanting this risk saying that someone could have a different view of facts and circumstances so we ought not to be hindering political speech or changing the way that people at, but what we ought to have is the ig in his recommendation said that the Treasury Department and the irs should clear up the standard is for what amount, how much and what the definition is for the little black event you can engage in. My sense is that its quite possible to have a rule that would be clearer and easier for people wanting them to understand and clear to everyone that would not be hindering political speech and its not my intention anyway and looking at that and my sense and concern is that the present system has over the last several years has turned out to be unworkable and i think it would be in everyones interest that could be clearer without hindering people and they would be able to run organizations that somebody is going to come in and secondguess them in the facts and circumstances that they are operating under. I agree that we need clarification and that, but strongly we need to urge a clear understanding of the freedoms of americans but just because someone is part of a Nonprofit Organization they have not waived their First Amendment rights and that is a tremendous threat that many are interfering with and that is a big concern. I agree with you, my sense is that they are fair and clear to everyone and it can create less of a constraint on the peoples right to free speech than the presence rules that are muddy and hard to interpret. One of the questions and i will yield my time again going back to the issue that the main problem has been lack of funding, the issues from them have, for some 25 years were close to it and it has been a long time that we have had issues and yet a few years ago in 2010 the irs had more funding than they have ever had. These problems and issues have not been addressed. We did have more money than we have by a longshot, long shot, as a result, some of that spending on Information Technology, the modernization problem for the irs is taken off the highrisk list after having been there for 14 years. So it has been true improvement in the i. T. Area that we could have significant progress. That is great for the i. T. Area and there are other areas that need to be addressed as well. Its time to get this going. Thank you, gentlemen. We now recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Sir, the year ago from now, we learn that the hard drive of lois lerner had crashed and there was an issue about getting her emails off of that of tapes i made you wrote a letter to the Senate Finance in june of 2014 saying that there were problems with her emails and that the backup tapes had been destroyed and then on june 20 as you testified at the irs went to Great Lengths and extraordinary efforts to recover the emails. So after the irs became aware that the hard drive had crashed, what specific step did the irs take to locate any backup port Disaster Recovery. The Disaster Recovery tapes are recorded over. So there is no technique or capacity in the ir as to actually retrieve emails off of those tapes. What we did do was go to everybody in the custodial list of about 80 different people that ms. Lois lerner would be communicating with. We already produced all of the emails that were relevant to the determination and that we were trying to respond and we looked at all of those and took every email that was to or from lois lerner, compare them. But that was from their hard drive . Just. With the states you had made a judgment that they simply were not going to be recoverable where you could have someone investigate whether you could have this or find some backup tape. The experts said there were no way that they were not recoverable and it has taken them six months, the last two or three months working around the clock and he still hasnt gotten them produced and we dont know how many there are, but we help them to find what these tapes were that have been recorded over, if they could find more emails, that would be terrific and i actually mean that seriously because it would lend this more than the 24,000 we already produced and what were the emails in the time frame. Why would they be able to find it if you guys can find a . You say you went through extraordinary lengths to. When we discovered this this spring and we reported it in june 6 weeks later, a couple weeks later they started the investigation and we had no more time and i will tell you today that if we started today and i dont know how much money they are spending, taking over six months to recover whatever they are going to recover. We dont have that capacity. To the irs ever collect this or send any backup tapes to anyone in your investigation the people was that ever any tape recovered were sent to allow by the irs . No. Who told you that the backup tapes would not yield any emails from the hard drive . I was told that by the Information Technology department. You know the basis for that statement . Did you inquire as to how they could be sure of that . What they describe is that they have these Disaster Recovery tapes, actual tapes then when you keep the six months, the six months is month is done, they simply reuse them angry record over them and then when you do this in the normal process, the data underneath is gone. In fact, i was told that we had no capacity in the weight you could actually recover those and they were not sure that there was any way that you could recover them. Have a communicated about recovering the emails from many of the hard drives . No, i have had no communication at all. Let me ask you this in the course of the irs response to this committees investigation, has the irs withholding information other than this . No, we have had some that we have asked the staff to review because there are matters that have nothing to do with the investigation, but we have exercised no privilege and we are trying to keep anything from you and we have continued to respond to the requests and provide any information that we could find. Even save your responses to this committee have been above and beyond what is required in a situation . We have an obligation to do our best to provide it, and we have done that and i dont think that is beyond. Extraordinary efforts are not above and beyond . They were when we discovered the crash and then it was when we thought that we needed to do whatever we could to fill in the gap and we did find 24,000 emails that we provided and that the ig might be able to find another nine or 10,000 lois lerner emails. But you made the effort you are not cavalier about this, you made the effort to find what the committee wanted. That is my testimony. Thank you, i yield that. I think thank the gentleman. I recognize the distinguished gentleman from south carolina. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The book of ecclesiastes there is a time and season for everything you convinced me he was here for the gao related testimony and i believe that we have agreed at some point that he is going to come back im wondering if the chairman could engage in a colloquy to make sure that my technology is cracked. The last time that he was in front of us, there was a robust discussion about the timeframe in which he was going to produce emails. And he had asked us to just those emails that we had asked for and we need those emails because the ones we do have from lois lerner contains such tools as this and celebrating democratic winds and forecasting doom and gloom saying that we needed a plan to overcome the citizens united. And if my chronology is a part of this telling us that he would prioritize those emails that they magically disappear and then the iris mr. Chairman, employed the herculean efforts to recover those emails they were not successful but then after the election, they did it here at some point. Now we are reading that 500 of those emails will not be made available due to the invocation of a privilege. Does the chairman know what the privileges and regarding to those documents of congress . I do not. You know if the president has had an opportunity to review those documents . That is a good question. Do you think that there is a chance that there is not a smidgen of corruption that exists in this investigation if they did have an opportunity to review what is in that . [inaudible] will you consider inviting the gentleman to update us on this chronology . Yes indeed. Okay commissioner im not going to question you today. Because i think that this was something else. But i hope at some point we can go back to where we left off which was that you could prioritize email production and i hope at some point we can evaluate the refusal to turn over certain documents and the invocation of privilege and i hasten to add is the chairman remembers the judiciary and oversight only for us to then learn that that privilege was invoked to protect an email that the attorney general said to his wife under what theory of executive privilege is that protected . I hope that i live long enough to see the production of those emails and certainly hope longer than seeing the commissioner comeback for. The gentleman yield. Can i just make one clarification. The department turned over all of these emails in the white house made a representation that they had no email, so in terms of that process in this Committee Notes that in fact there was no evidence of anyone outside of the irs, whether the white house or treasury at any impact who had influence as a said improper use of criteria for the determination process. So i dont know what the documents over there are. There has been a litigation around the Inspector General investigating communications and that is not a case between us and the irs is not a part of that. In part that is why i addressed the chairman and not you, but if you would like us to have this conversation do you understand what Congress Wants those emails can you understand why we might want access to solve the documents . I can understand it and my understanding is that the white house sometime ago said that there were no lois lerner emails and they gave you all of the lois lerner emails. I think that this is my appearance before the committee and i look forward to the seventh and we will talk about and be delighted to give you an update and i will be delighted if the Inspector General can ever complete his work and its now going after six months to reduce those emails because then we can learn what was in them and ive been totally supportive of the ig in my view is if there are emails that can be done and they apparently have public pressure i think that that will be a major step forward and i look forward to discussing that with you. I am out of time, but you can appreciate the skepticism because appears that if sometimes the strategy is to delay and weight until the public loses interest or until there is a new administration and i know that you can appreciate our desire to have those documents sooner rather than later. I can and i understand that. Think your. The gentlemans time has expired. I now recognize myself for five minutes. I would like to remind my colleagues why we are here. Five of you are very presentable and he put a happy face on this difficult situation. But heres the reality. Twentyfive years in a row these agencies have come before congress. Twentyfive years in a row. This is the allstar team of problems and that is the reality. You can try to put lipstick on this, but the reality is that it is ugly. To get on this list you have to be engaged in waste and fraud and abuse in excess of a billion dollars per year. To get off the lists, granted its not easy. Leadership commitment Agency Capacity an action plan you have to have a monetary and effort and show progress and that seems like a reasonable step of criteria that you can accomplish. Twentyfive years in a row he failed to meet the criteria on those five and consequently that is why we are highlighting this. I think you are wellintentioned and a talented individual but the massive bureaucracy within the organization that you represent yeartodate is failing to meet these modest schools. And that is what is so frustrating. Challenges are going to rise by 25 years in a row is just not good enough and i heard that we are making measurable progress, good news to report. But if you dont have good news to report, the bad news is that you are back again. We do not want to keep having these hearings but we want to show the progress and i appreciate the good men and women whose gone through the details of what has happened with in these departments and agencies. As a followup i dont expect you to do this off the top of your head that i have a concern, one of my concerns is who is held accountable. Like to actually is held accountable. One of our members asked a good question, has anyone ever been wired . Was anyone not meeting these goals . We have thousands of good quality people who work for the federal government. Working hard, trying to do their best, somehow its totally falling down and we are not achieving the goals. A quick tour criteria doesnt say you have to solve this but that you are on a trajectory to getting this solved. Part of the follow up that we would appreciate is who is held accountable. What happens if you dont meet the goals, some of these are astronomically large. We are talking hundreds of billions of dollars. If you want to wipe out the federal deficit, look at the uncollected taxes and the problems that we have in waste and fraud and abuse coming out the door in a digest. Thats more than wipes out all the deficit just those two things and its not very easily done, but the waste and fraud and abuse if you look at the people working hard paying taxes and doing everything that they can hundreds of billions of dollars going out erroneously and the waste and fraud and abuse they just throw up their hands. 2500 means something in their lives. And yet the numbers are so big. And i do not understand the five of them highlighted here why you cannot hit those five goals and according to the gao they have only met one of the five goals. This includes the dod program one of the five criteria and four of them partially. The department of energy, one partially met three not that at all. And so 25 years in a row i dont want to come back and have the same hearing. I want you all to solve it. The committee would like to know and hear from you and how are you going to do that. How are you going to do that . Difficult to answer but i am telling you that youre all giving a pretty picture that is not so pretty and we want to see what is the action plan to create an action plan. That is the hope and that is the goal and that is my concern. With that, i want to yield back my time. Are there any members that wish to ask a second round of questions . The gentleman from ohio. I appreciate this, we put up the two sides again. It was noted by and agreed by the chairman and i would like to have a full hearing yes, im happy to answer more questions. That is the way it works. The American People want to know why the Internal Revenue service violated the fundamental rights and we appreciate the willingness to answer the questions on behalf of the American People. I anticipate we will have another hearing and i have had five already. Happy to answer the question we still havent gotten the truth as evidenced by the headline yesterday and they cant even get the documents arab resting. Those are not documents arab resting from a. They derive from you or unlawful activities and the data heads the agency with its much power as you do to have that kind of thing frustrates not as members of the committee but all kinds of americans. Mr. Chairman, that is the problem. This is what you told me when i asked you when did you learn you cannot get all of the emails you learned in april. The new learned in april this is the letter you sent to Senate Finance telling them in june and you used the word confirmed, no backup tapes the backup tapes no longer exist. So i would like to know between april when he learned and when you told the congress and the American People what you did confirm that the tapes did not exist which we now know do exist. What did you do to confirm that this did not exist. I talked to the pp will the i. T. People that told me when they were acquired they were reused and destroy then we had no way to capacity to extract emails from them and its taken him six months and they still havent completed the process. Thats all you did . Yes. Thats right. Was it a long conversation . We have some questions about how this works. Word is based on one conversation that you had. Yes they told me that there was no way that those tapes could be found. That is all you did . Yes. An issue where false statements given by doug shulman, the unprecedented fashion that you release this ahead of the Inspector General report, the vardy tipped off the treasury and the white house about and all you do to confirm the loss most Important Documents from the most important person is ask a question of the i. T. People . Yes, we spent six months working at the hard drives for 82 people. And that was what we did. Was one conversation that you confirm that you lost valuable documents. Who is the one person that you asked the question to . Can you give us a name . That wouldve been Steve Manning who is the senior i. T. Guy and i asked him and then we decided what we could do and thats what we did do is look at all of the emails from 80 people im talking about being confirmed. With one conversation, one i. T. Guy that turned out not to be true, here is the big picture the chief counselor said you had problems with the emails and you learned in april and you didnt tell us until june. And the only thing you did to confirm his one question to your i. T. Guy. There was a lot of time to get 24,000 emails which was at that time we got the most we could do in the best we could do, we thought it was an extraordinary effort to get you the additional 24,000 emails which apparently dont have much interest. One conversation with an i. T. Guy and he writes of the u. S. Congress we have lost the emails of lois lerner and then if i could, sir, when did you learn that they had actually found these and could recover her emails . I havent learned yet that they could recover but that we help them find in the winter the system and our people help them find late july and early august they thought they had found the tapes. Literally a month after in july and early august, a month after you said confirm this backup tape exists within a month they got the tapes that you confirmed did not exist . That is exactly right. With billions of dollars . Were wasting a lot of time it is very frustrating. Is it that were too big to have accountability . We are too big to say we are too big to say we will do it this way in the effective in efficient manner . Of questions are tough. So i will turn the table. If you were us what would we have you to to get off the list . So we could hold to accountable. Thank you for your question. First of all, we have made progress. Then agios focusing on half a dozen projects where we have had repeated problems so there is no effort to claim success of that with that oversight of the gao the success we have had that will point out over the last three years were 7 lowbudget that the project comes in on budget. Those which are systemic better in the Large Capital which are among the most complex in the world. Were focusing on structural changes so with someone like me testifying is why we have tried to create the new project Risk Management because that is a dialogue and a challenge with the program so we can avoid future problems like this. But both of you talk about accountability that is a significant issue. When everybody is in charge of a project that is why the secretary has mandated that is the person that was accountable stick i figure for this issue and. I think what we would like to do is that you would respond within the 30 day period show less your game plan does anybody have an objection to that . Does anybody have an objection to that . With that 30 day time line did reason that you this week . You have been very patient but that is what we will do. We will send a bipartisan letter show with your game plan that we will go from here we appreciate your agencies. Hard work and patriotic people. We need to put a plan in place. So with that we will stand adjourned. Thank you. To speak out of order. The speaker pro tempore the gentleman is recognized. Mr. Gosar madam speaker we the arizona delegation rise today to honor the life of one of our own, one of our young, one of our very best. Kayla mueller of arizona was a young woman, full of youthful exuberance, optimism about peace and humanity and willing to put her life on the line to help others halfway around the wo madam speaker we rise today to honor the life of one of our own end very best. Kayla was a young woman full of youth and optimism about peace and humanity in a better life on the line to help others have put around the world. In the time she filled hope and followed dart darkness and she was a beautiful soul. All of our hearts are heavy with her passing the were unified with her courage and compassion. We must endeavor to remain brave and strong just as kay led did. No one should have to endure the pain and suffering of losing a child so earthy but now lets look back fondly on her life and the way that she spoke. If this is how you were revealed to me this is a level c you. I knowledge the gentlewoman from arizona. Were here to honor kayla and her courage and undying spirit and determination and to offer our hearts and prayers of comfort to her grieving family and friends. In arizona riyal neighbors and friends. She went chewed number Arizona University in flagstaff talking to friends and professors everyone talks about her dedication to serving others even if that was far away places that were dangerous she was driven by a compassion to help the suffering. We know her short life has proved that one dedicated souls can touch 1,000 others. Lets all keep her family in our prayers and her legacy in our hearts. I ask the house to join me in a moment of silence. Thank you. Host as we continue our discussion this morning, you just heard from representative Martha Mcsally from arizona. Another joining us, marcy kaptur , democrat of ohio. A member of the congressional ukrainian caucus. She is their founder and cochair. Good morning. As we continue our discussion this morning a representative from arizona also a joining us now known as a member of the Appropriations Committee but also from the professional ukrainian caucus. Good morning. You created in the papers with the headline story taking a look as request to beef up military. Why is that . First of all, it is a very difficult situation but ukraine is asking for defensive weapons to meet the onslaught of the russians with the stronghold. No question that rushes capabilities are much greater than ukraines. To leave them defenseless is not in the interest of ukraine either. So were walking a very narrow line to defend against the tanks that are coming and trying to defend. Host wide the escalation now . They havent been quiet. They have been creeping. Odd to the eastern territories working their way to the black sea. And europe because of their alliance with russia for energy has been very reluctant. You saw Angela Merkle from germany came to the United States this week but very transfixed and torn because of rushes ability to manipulate. Ukraine looks to the United States as an honest broker as a country that has supported nato right now it is not asking for that status. I think what went wrong was the free world could not find a landing pad for ukraine on the military side. With the aggregation of nations of poland as a stepping stone to europe into the security umbrella of europe. Remember russia was the native to the not the germany. So russia is not comfortable with europe entirely there. So we have to take this progressively but i do think that security umbrella is terribly dangerous. What is the white house reaction to arm the ukrainians . There listening but they are cautious obviously. Complicated by russia u. S. Interests of other parts of the world, i think president obama and Vice President of bided have not fully thought through the consequences and have been working very hard to work with the european allies. Accused her resources and the agricultural bounty it is extraordinary but it feels like 1789. Ive brought you a picture of the front page of rollcall last week to say a you Thomas Jefferson Edward George washington . I of patrick henry. They are just part of this tender stage. Host also religious leaders are asking for military assistance . Yes. Actually their leader made a trip to the United States a very brave man said are you supporting defense he said ive here for the reason that is an extraordinary statement from a christian leader. Understanding that his citizens are being killed by the russians with no ability to defend themselves. Host looking from the United States with the congressional you greedy and caucus cochair has cautioned about this for you can call and ask questions. It was a joint hearing with chancellor merkle so to talk about though weapons aspect but also the sanctions and we will get your reaction to this. What we have said is the International Community came together to ratchet up the cost for the violation of a sovereign terry sovereignty and russia has a significant cost for its actions of eastern ukraine. It has not yet dissuaded mr. Putin that he is wrong. But it has created a measurable negative impact on the russian economy. My hope is through the diplomatic efforts those costs have become high enough that mr. Putin preferred option is for resolution. Remember the cold war was that way to decades until the soviet union collapsed with the tugofwar for ukraine, i think because russias Nuclear Power she could overwhelm ukraine. We have to use means to get the results we want which is the independent sovereign ukraine that limits carnage. I think the president is off the right track with what we passed in the house in december this has additional sanctions we can place i do personally favor the United States to the european allies to buy a additional defensive equipment so she can defend herself because over 5,000 people they have lost all many as the United States lost over a decade their loss that it over a year. So it is significant and that shows how and defending you crave is and they will have to make that decision to defend themselves. Host bob from California Independent line. Caller good morning. How do we stomach them for the 19th time with mr. Putin . With the humiliation he has no intention. He has a high Approval Rating but he doesnt have the approval for any military action against you crave. I wonder if going hat in hand it is hard for his country as cspan has been kicked out all independent media has been kicked out with all other countries in europe it is harder to block information and a faction does break out it might be hard for them to block reports that somehow filtered through that makes the cost that may filter through that would really do did damage. First of all, i think that half the damage to you craig if you think of that period of the soviet union collapsed she collapse economically. Yes sanctions take time but over time there will have an enormous impact. We have to do whatever we can and diplomatically to provide you prayed with a greater ability to defend themselves and also recognize that one of the reasons europe has been very slow is because she is energy dependent on exports of natural gas of russia. And how important it is for us to position ourselves to places like europe with natural gas discoveries we can become Energy Independent ourselves but we have to reposition this economy not just a few days or months we have to be on target to do that and the importance to give that with the energy standpoint is a higher strategic priority we have. Host the democrats line from georgia. Caller the thing that i really want to know is how america have easy war comes out of cover about. That america is fighting in the war. We need to make it so allamerica fights you would see their racquets go for the hills. The wealthy people or the poor people. It is easy to say lets go fight the war. No one is talking about u. S. Troops. No one is saying that. But with your sentiment regarding syria or iraq but what surprised me was that not one person called did or one comment about the tribal conflict inside syria and iraq. But the horrendous murders and the acts that they are committing as isil that has been excluded from the government of by iraq there very unrepresented in there is said tribal underpinning that we should not get caught in the middle of it. And to understand what is going on in that part of the world. I do agree if were not careful you will fall into a situation that some of those sunii terrorist is that they view was to support the government of iraq that was leading to the shia faction. So we were viewed as not helping any more. We have to extract ourselves from that press of this and we have been caught in the middle of the struggle between the sunii and lycia and of the nature of the government itself. There isnt an open society and run the risk to be sucked into something that is so dangerous and people for them not to understand that but do what . Bomb a village to create more enemies . That is a strategic you there. Remember politics for the last century is focused on the oil in places like iraq or even now saudi arabia. So even here at home have to extract ourselves from situations that have been deleterious to the United States. Host and wouldnt providing arms to ukrainians would be aggressive towards russia . But because russia is a Nuclear Power i give the president some much credit and a secretary carry for the hours they have spent working with european allies to figure out from the diplomatic standpoint to give them credit. We have a government in place in the ukraine you can just see liberty advancing but we do have to take a vintage in the question is how. But for those diplomatic efforts we need to keep up the pace. Host democrats line at. Caller good morning. I guess my idea about the american troops being stationed in the parade i am not putting them there to fight but to cross is to attack the ukrainians that the american soldiers have that possibility. Not the their armed with Nuclear Weapons but to let the russians know theyve might injure american troops that is my idea. What about the u. S. Providing that . I think very clearly the United States has to work with the european allies and it has to be a european presence in my opinion. Ukraine remains in a nomans land. The president has asked for a secession that when you say that all of the awful memories of world war ii of the european presence inside of russia come to mind so it has to be done very progressively and it is in russias interest to have a stable russia and ukraine. As i said it has to reach northsouth west and east. She should have relations with russia but she is her own republic and her own nation. You can see how the people behave and the more open nature of ukraine. She has a right to be her own nation but to have a stable republic adjacent to russia is in russias interest. So what what you do with a sigh a source code of weapons . It has to be negotiated to make those decisions. I get emails please. Send us a kevlar vest or socks or brutes or guns that work or the ability to prevent tanks from coming into our villages. It isnt to ask for russian territory but so that they can communicate last year there is a severe loss of life you cannot leave people undefended like that. They have the ability to try to save their own life. What is happening is heroic. But they have right not to be so fearful as a takeoff of military 12 times their size. They deserved the right to to defend themselves. Host independent mind good morning. Caller one of the most honest people in washington and i agree with you that we should try to furnish them with the energy that they need. I would like to see the pipeline go through and the rest open up so theres all kinds of energy we could make them independent from russia. Id very want Energy Independence. But there seems to be roadblocks going up. And 30 percent of the land is in federal he owns . We could do it safely i am sure. Thank you for calling and. Of ohio has a big refinery region. I sound like a commercial but the peak of the marathon , the Natural Gas Pipelines coming through the region. We have massive discoveries along the parade makes it is the shortest distance to northern europe. With all the conversion stations being placed on the east coast theres its the shortest distance and they keep cascading the question is a just the east coast by a pipeline . Or do we use that system to get into the ports that really needed . I am more interested in the energy subcommittee. But the president as actually implemented executive action to produce more oil on federal lands than ever before. That is one of the reasons that you see this unusual aberration in the gas markets that prices are coming down because other countries outside our borders are pumping more because they see that we are bringing up capacity as well as canada to create a different scenario in this country and i cannot wait to get there faster. Host what about keystone . We have had several floats and i support keystone but to i still wanted to be made in the u. S. A. I want to make sure that the trust funds that are set up if there is a break that is paid for by the companys not by the taxpayers. But i am a supporter of keystone as well as north American Energy independence to be environmentally responsible. Host it is that from the jobs created . Obviously construction jobs there are thousands and thousands lot term it is not that many but it is the focus on Energy Independence for our country. The point of the middle east is dictatorships with the reputation among the people is because we have been aligned with dictators and repressive regimes. Host the Associated Press reports the president says that the Islamic State poses great threats. Do you agree . Conversely many represent great threats to us and other interest in the region. Were doing everything we can to trim their sails. With the most important actions we can take as a country in our own interests is to become Energy Independent as fast as we can and. Host to support against isis . It appears what is being drafted sounds very responsible but keep in mind if all you do is kill the city tribesmen surveyed tribesmen we are powering a rand. The president is under negotiations and it is in the roles interest but will that collapse if we take action on the military front . May be against the city tribes or the suze terrace they may be open to depreciations for what those regimes might do but i recognize the playing field. It is not that simple just to kill one set of terrorists but personally i think theyre over 20,000 coming in from around the world that we work with the sunii legitimate tribesmen where the caucuses were largely sidelined that is not their tribal land it is in americas interest to have a more balanced approach in that region and not the fault to the shia. Host republican line is. Caller kudos to Say Something about the Keystone Pipeline to stand up for independence that is the strong statement coming from a democrat. But do get away from isis isis, which he think is the of motivation of president obama considering all the human rights issues that are surrounding cuba . I think first of recognizing cuba still has a relationship with russia. Not a lot but i think president obama is a 21st century president and recognizes i believe that if all we did if that is all he did to reveal a different day in the caribbean port the ancestry and isolation is never good. Speaking just with economics . We want to sell Agricultural Products to cuba would do we want to have exchanges to trade the cleveland indians. Give me a chance to do that. But i want the families to be reunited i come from a family generations ago that we know what it is to be cut off from a family. I cannot tell you to hurt we feel over generations or the shattered lives. If we had a chance to do this peacefully them much to do it. It is an island and a small country. I have no cuban relatives but i just thought if we have the opportunity of lets do it. Good morning. I dont think the mayor putin is interested in the separatist. Looking at the geography of redound to caribbean crimea they have submarines theyre the only way they can get to their ships is through the mediterranean is to go through the straits where turkey is. I think he is more interested in the black sea to control their already give turkey their oil. If anything happens if turkey does not want to play with nato. Because all these events around the world right now with the rand and iraq and all these things i am just wondering if a couple good reporters could start digging into this. First of all, i am glad he is paying attention to your geography to the way that russia has placed its military assets. Even though the naval fleets that use the black sea as the route is not the navy that can compare to hours. But he put his finger on something very important that russia does not want to be blocked off from its ability to use the black sea. But with those negotiations going on with europe for turkey, i recognize russia as a significant military power in this world and if we had the possibility in our country to be located in san diego. I am not excusing what he has done. But i think that would hurt the reputation to recognize the military assets that russia has in the black sea region that few americans even recognize. Thank you. Host mike from florida and a goahead. Caller i keep hearing from congress that we have to cut spending but where does all this money come from to fight i says hal to go to the ukraine . Where is this money coming from . Every year there is of budget that passes we have been living within the budget that was allocated last year but over half of the Discretionary Spending we spend every year and with a two year period it was almost 2 trillion that his account for what we will spend on transportation this year and the key number is 1 is that as a percentage of gdp . But it does come from the American People with our domestic responsibilities after repass helped to create jobs to pass the infrastructure build on Foreign Policy we do have real interest globally with the most important being the expansion and United States is involved with our allies and europe certainly has been our most vigilant allies. We cannot turn our backs on them. And we have a presence there and we do have interest globally. It is a big country. We have responsibilities and the American People try to carry things forward and were trying to do a better job to manage. That is a sheriff the gdp. Chairman rogers has a ready said that the proposed tax increases will never be enacted so it is a shell game with the federal budget i would expect that to begin. [laughter]. He spending side. He chairs the Appropriations Committee. But we have to have the ways and Means Committee walking with us. That is the effort to are going to put for now, to put forward a responsible program that will keep the economy growing and pay the bills. Host up next, jean from wisconsin. Good morning. Caller good morning. Thank u so much for having this discussion. Nice to talk with you, nancy. Nancy, i have a long well not along, but here goes. During the clinton administration, ukraine was able to perfect way able to defend itself to perfectly able to defend itself. I believe there was a shield or dome created that ukraine would be completely protected. During the clinton administration, he had an agreement with