Transcripts For CSPAN2 NASA 20240705

Publicprivate partnership. This is 90 minutes. The subcommittee on space and aeronautics will come to order. Without objection the chair is authorized to declare recess on at any time. Welcome to todays hearing entitled returning to the moon, keeping artemis on track. I would like to acknowledge i appreciate the witnesses being here today. Mother nature is proving to be somewhat challenging this week as you can see by the turnout of membership. This has been hearing thats been much anticipated by the members in a very enthusiastic way, but you have to physically get here, and that is a challenge and the subcommittee chairman is in the air somewhere between here and houston, so the moment he arrives we will have a proper chairman to preside over this process. With that, i want to recognize myself for an opening statement. Good morning and welcome everyone to the science committees first hearing of 2024. Its fitting we are kicking off of the hearing on artemis given its importance to the Space Program and u. S. Competitiveness. My top priority since becoming the chair of the committee has been to ensure the american competitiveness and leadership in the field of research and Technology Development. This includes u. S. Activities in space especially human exploration. The importance of u. S. Leadership in space is why some of our top legislative priorities this congress include a National Reauthorization bill which will consider this spring and the commercial space act. Its been almost seven years since the comprehensive nasa authorization bill was signed into law and that is too long for an agency of nassaus importance. Much has happened during that period and of the committee should provide direction to nasas activities especially for the areas of human exploration. How we address the exploration beyond low earth orbit is undoubtedly a topic we will address in the authorization bill. Artemis is a cornerstone of that effort. I am confident that i speak for everyone on this committee when i say we all support artemis. This committee has long directed to return humans to the moon and eventually mars. But the committees support means asking detailed questions from nasa and providing oversight of the agencys proposals. Congress must have proper insight in the agencys planning and execution of the mission to ensure its success. It also means listing inputs from external stakeholders and hearing differing viewpoints, which is why weve assembled a panel of witnesses with a variety of perspectives today. Last week nasa announced the delay of artemis two to september, 2025 and artemis three to september 2026. I look forward to hearing from nasa about the cause of these delays and potential impacts to future missions and about the steps it is taking to mitigate future risks. We have a responsibility to not only our constituents, but the International Community to see that artemis is executed in a timely and fiscally responsible manner without sacrificing safety. I remind my colleagues that we are not the only country interested in sending humans to the moon. A Chinese Communist partys actively solicited International Partners for a Lunar Mission, a Lunar Research station and stated its ambition to have astronauts on, human astronauts on the surface by 2030. The country that lands first will have the ability to set the precedent for weather future lunar activities are conducted with openness and transparency or in a more restricted manner. Im grateful to the panel for appearing before us today to share their experience and expertise and i look forward to a productive discussion on how we can ensure the success in the best way for the u. S. To be the world leader in human Space Exploration. I now recognize the Ranking Member for his opening statement. Good morning, thank you chairman lucas for holding todays hearing. Returning to the moon, keeping artemis on track. I want to welcome the distinguished witnesses. Thank you for your time and expertise and for being here today. I was not alive huddled around the tv for apollo 11, but my parents watched the landing. Im the son of an Aerospace Engineer and a meteorologist with a deep love of science. I know the profound impact it has had in the world when i look up in the night sky, i wonder whats up there. I want us to know whats up there. Today we are examining the Artemis Mission. The program separated into several stages. Its designed to bring humans stepbystep to the moon and beyond. Artemis will inspire the next generation, strengthen the Aerospace Engineer of International Partnerships and demonstrate capabilities needed to eventually send humans to mars. Last year i was proud to host nasa astronaut doctor rubin in my district in western illinois. Doctor rubin spoke about her excitement for the upcoming generation. She believes that, and i spoke with our witnesses earlier, that the first human that will set foot on mars may be in a first grade classroom today. What an exciting possibility for the next generation, for our children. The Artemis One Mission was an important first unproved test data set the overriding in the vehicle thousands of miles beyond the moon for its return to earth. Artemis to do well test additional systems as it brings humans around the moon, and artemis three wildland humans lk on the lunar s difficulty of ths cannot be underestimated. Last week we learned nasa delaying the artemis two and three mission lie about a year. I stand behind nasa in prioritizing safety and i look forward to gaining further insight in the delay and any related cost. Artemis requires a sustained national investment. In a 2021 report, the office of the Inspector General said, quote, nasa is projected to spend 93 billion on the effort for fiscal year 2012 to 2025. And thats even before we land our astronauts on the moon. As all the geysers with risers with oversightresponsibie needs to ensure that those investments are made wisely. This hearing provides a timely opportunity to get both an update on the progress and an understanding of the pressing issues of the Artemis Program, including does nasa and congress having an appropriate level of understanding of the cost of the artemis systems, individual missions and a sustained Lunar Exploration effort . What is the Critical Path for returning humans to the moon and what is the plan for addressing all of the challenges . How would fiscal 2024 budget and enacted 2023 levels were a cut below the 2023 levels affect this program . How what it nasa and its partners addressing risks and how would the risks be communicated to the American People . In closing, mr. Chairman, i wanted artemis to be safe and successful. Artemis and moon to mars are tremendous opportunities and of importance to the United States and the rest of the world. Americas International Leadership and engagement in the program and the accord will promote peaceful, safe and sustainable exploration of the moon and other celestial bodies. Thank you and i yield back the balance of my time. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the full committee for a statement. Thank you. Good morning and thank you mr. Chairman for holding todays hearing. I want to welcome the witnesses and thank you for being here to discuss the topic of returning to the moon, keeping artemis on track. The committee as the chairman has noted has long maintained its bipartisan support for artemis and the move to mars efforts and i dont see that changing in any way. I was thrilled with of the success of the artemis one test flight. My own state of california, the moon to Mars Campaign supports 11,600 jobs and creativity and Economic Impact of 2. 8 billion according to the 2021 Economic Impact report. So, let me be clear, i support artemis but i want it to be successful especially with china at our heels. We want toe helpful if youre hn the committee in and ensuring that it is strong and staying on track as we look to lead to the theworld handinhand with our partners in the human exploration of the moon and beyond. Sending people into space, let alone the moon isnt easy and nasa announced delays on the missions. I have confidence in the workforce and the decision to keep safety as a top priority. To that and i look forward to understanding the Details Behind the recent delays and what is involved in addressing those issues. At the artemis efforts continue, we as the committee must have our eyes wide open. It is a multidecade affect effort with several administrations full situation awareness and that is number one, we know how much of the key artemis system costs as well as the missions themselves, number two, a realistic understanding of how nasa is assessing the schedule and three, clarity on the topmost technical challenges and risks and how they are being addressed across nasa and the diverse set of partners in the acquisition mechanisms. Nasa has a lot on its plate. The future of low earth orbit and the International Space station operations in 2030, the need for critical and costly vehicles, the transition to the use of future commercial space stations and their readiness to come online. Key considerations on the sample return are on the horizon and thats what we learned last week from nasa and the annual assessment of the global temperature. We must continue the measurement, observations needed to understand and mitigate the impact of the climate crisis. In short, nasa is a multi agency and we cant lose sight of the benefits and challenges of the balance of the portfolio. But supporting balance will be made any easier by the dysfunctional appropriations process that i think threatens to undermine what we know is best for growing our economy in a sustainable way, investments in our entity and innovations. I am excited about the move to mars and i look forward to working with our chairman with the administration and stakeholders on building a smart, strong and sustainable path forward. And i think you mr. Chairman and yield back. The chair would note that when the subcommittee chair arrives mixed in for an opening statement. The response abilities include the development of the moon to mars infrastructure and Management Systems development and planning the deep Space Exploration approach. Previously as the deputy administrator for the director get into prior to that as the overriding program manager. The next witness, director of contracting and National Security acquisitions at the gao. He manages a portfolio that includes issues related to nasa and the Industrial Base and supply chain integrity among other topics. Mr. Russell joined in 2002 and previously served on gao Homeland Security justice. The third witness george scott acting Inspector General. He assumed the role in january of this year having previously served prior to joining. He served over three decades at a gao that included serving as the managing director of the Homeland Security justice team. The final witnesses doctor michael griffin, the copresident a scientific and technical consulting firm. Doctor griffin previously served as the 11th administrator leading the agency from 2005 to 2009. He is also served as the undersecretary of defense for research and engineering as well as the state department at the Johns Hopkins physics laboratory. Again, thank you all for being here today. And i now recognize you for five minutes to present the testimony. Chairman lucas, Ranking Member sorensen and distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify on the Artemis Campaign. Under the campaign the United States along with our International Commercial partners will return humans to the moon to explore and conduct Scientific Research and establish the capability for a long term cousins on and around the moon. Using what we learned we will take the next giant leap sending the first humans to mars. Nasa took the first major step in americas return to the moon with the Artemis One Mission. That launch in the Mission Tested the space launch system rocket, the spacecraft and exploration ground system in preparation for artemis to. Nasa astronauts victor glover, Christina Cook and Jeremy Hansen journey beyond for the furthest humans have gone into space and more than 50 years. Approximately one year after, the crew will land on the south pole and begin building out a robust longterm exploration program. With artemis four, astronauts will again visit to the surface and Start Assembly of the space station in orbit. Nasa has planned for successful sustainable return to the moon requires the development of several systems including the sls rocket, the exploration ground system, lunar landers, the gateway system and new lunar rovers. Last year pursuant to the authorization act in 2022, nasa established the Program Office that focuses on the development of these systems, Mission Integration and management across the portfolio. This new office also leads planning and analysis for the Technology Development to support humans to mars. And in the years since the successful flight test, nasa continued to refine the schedule of the followon mission. Based on data from artemis one and the readiness of the space system needed to transport the cruise from earth to the serviceand back, the artemis tod several new systems to support astronauts inside of orion. In addition we are continuing to study the heat shield to ensure the safety of the crew on the future missions. Based on these factors we are planning to launch in september of 2025. Artemis three will build on the progress and as a commercial lunar lander and advanced spacesuit from walking on the lunar surface. In 2026, artemis three will send humans back to the surface of the moon. While sending humans back to the moon will be a significant accomplishment, we do not intend to stop there. The longterm goal is to send humans to mars and the moon will help us get there. Mars is a rich destination for scientific discovery and a driver of technology that will enable humans to travel and explore far from earth. By using what we learned on and around the earth, nasa is working to understand and overcome the future challenges associated with the landing and living on mars. As they build the blueprint for the exploration throughout the solar system for the benefit of humanity, we conducted the architecture conduct reviews the culmination of the robust analysis process designed to align the exploration strategy and codify the supporting architecture. The annual review is a milestone that enables the strategy to evolve over time as we consider lessons from Previous Missions and provide opportunities to add new technologies as well as new industry and International Partners. Through the Artemis Campaign, they are partnering with of the most diverse and broad exploration coalitions in history including multiple internationally and commercial partners. Nasas Gateway Program is an International Collaboration with the Canadian Space agency, European Space agency, Japan Exploration Agency and now the United Arab Emirates space center. To establish the first space station around the moon. Similarly, additional International Partnerships from the lunar surface habitats, logistics and mobility capabilities that would enable a human presence and enhanced scientific return. Together we will continue to develop the technology and the systems needed to live and work on and around the moon in preparation for Human Missions to mars. Because of our labors astronaut corps, we will be able to fly the first woman, first person of color and First International astronauts to the moon. We will align with our International Partners towards the future of expanded Economic Opportunity and scientific discovery while investing in the next generation of stem leaders as we support the limitless possibility of Space Exploration. Nasa is grateful for the continued support of the Artemis Campaign and i appreciate the opportunity to update you on behalf of nasa and the Artemis Partners and we would be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you and i now recognize mr. Russell for five minutes to present his testimony. Ranking member lofgren, sorensen, members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss the efforts to return astronauts to the surface of the ultimately human exploration of mars to the missions. Nasas request at least 38 billion over the next five years to support this ambitious undertaking. The project supporting artemis is complex and specialized and often pushed the stateoftheart Space Technology. These projects include a human landing system to transport crew to the learning surface into space suits the operations. In addition, nasa plans rely on existing programs including the multipurpose crew vehicle into space launch system. Successfully executing the missions will require extensive coordination with a wide range of contractors to ensure systems operate together seamlessly and safely. Our work is highlighted in the progress towards flight test. Examples include the successful launch of artemis one in november of 2022 that demonstrates the initial capability of the space launch system as well as the exploration ground systems. Artemis two, the first flight with crew nasa is currently conducting integration testing of the capsule and launchpad. Launch pad. And for artemis thret mission the contractor has conducted to test flights. Also continues to make progress on the integration and Risk Management plans such as establishing mechanisms to identify and track the risks and establishment and implementation of the moon to mars Program Office. While they continue to develop the capabilities needed to support the efforts, the agency does face several challenges. These include the artemis schedule, lack of transparency and to the mission and program cost another Acquisition Management challenge. In terms of the schedule and the november 2023 report, we found there were in a variety of factors that made the previous 25 days unlikely. These included the ambitious schedule to the key events and the remaining technical work. Specifically we found that if the development took as many months to complete as an average nasa project, it was likely artemis three would be likely to occur in 2027. Just last week they adjusted the launch date to september 2026 to allow contractors more time to complete a significant nonremaining technical work. In terms of the mission costs in december 2019, we found nasa didnt plan to establish an official cost estimate for the mission. We made a recommendation and nasa concurred with it to establish one but its not yet done so. While requesting 6. 8 billion to support artemis three programs in the fiscal year 2024 budget request, decisionmakers have limited knowledge to the full scope of the Artemis Three Mission costs until an estimate is created. Last, in terms of Acquisition Management, nasa has been on the highrisk list for a number of years related to Acquisition Management and has made a lot of but maslows largest most complex projects including those that support the Artemis Missions continue to shape the agencys entire acquisition portfolio. When the project succeed at the cost or scheduled baselines it can have cascading effects on other projects and efforts. In the 23 assessment of the projects we found nasa anticipated the baselines for the Artemis Programs including hls and as the projects into the portfolio they will drive the agencys acquisition performance over the next several years for good or ill. In summary, nasa made important progress on the artemis efforts and the challenges ring. Nasa will need to manage multiple risks seamlessly and continue to find ways to elevate the risks across the programs and mitigate those. That includes increasing transparency on how much the future missions are likely to cost. Implementing the past recommendations will help nasa to improve these critical areas. Chairman lucas, this completes my prepared remarks and the full questions the subcommittee may have. I recognize mr. Scott for his testimony. Chairman lucas, Ranking Member lofgren, Ranking Member sorensen and members of the subcommittee, thank you for in me here today to discuss key challenges facing nasas Artemis Campaign. At the outset i would like to thank the subcommittee for your continued support of the oversight work. Also, i would like to thank paul martin the Inspector General for his Exceptional Leadership of the office over the past 14 years. It was a pleasure serving as the deputy for the last five and a half years. Historically, nasa struggled to establish credible costs and schedule estimates and artemis is no exception. After more than a decade of preparation and delays, nasa successfully completed the Artemis One Mission in december of 2022. Despite this achievement, nasa faces additional challenges to meeting its goals. Of utmost importance is resolving technical issues that could threaten astronaut to safety. The agency will need to do this while addressing longstanding concerns such asle costs, unreliable project schedules and the lack of transparency into funding needs. In terms of technical challenges, nasas most immediate issue is preparing for the mission. The first crew test flight of orion. For example, the artemis one of light rebuild unexpected erosion of protected material on over ryans heat shield. In addition, the agency identified other issues with orion that it needs to correct before the next launch. Recognizing the challenges that lie ahead, last week nasa announced delays to the missions. This will allow more time to address technical issues, identified during the First Mission as well as support, further development and testing of other systems including the human landing system and next nextgeneration spacesuits. The second challenges the campaigns enormous cost. Overall, we projected that the total costs would reach 93 billion between 2012 and 2025. We also estimate the production and operating costs will total at least 4. 2 billion per launch. This figure does not include 42 billion in formulation and Development Costs spent over the past dozen years. Given these costs, it is imperative that nasa identify and effectively implement costsaving measures. To its credit the Agency Recognizes the need to reduce cost and is attempting to do so. Our work however has found some key Cost Reduction efforts may fall short. This is due in part to not capturing certain costs when developing estimates or relying on unrealistic assumptions. Nasa also wants to make the moon to mars effort more sustainable by sharing costs with its International Partners however the agencies current plan does not include cost estimates for these partners beyond artemis for. Finally, the Artemis Campaign lacks cost and schedule transparency. Nasa hasnt developed a comprehensive assessment for the cost and unlike his other Major Projects and programs, nasa hasnt established lifecycle costs were made costs and schools rule commitments for some programs including artemis. Without the agency pulling accounting for and accurately reporting the overall cost of current and future missions, it will be difficult to make informed decisions about nasas longterm funding needs. Further, without credible, complete and transparent cost schedule estimates nasa will be hardpressed for meaningful cost savings and a key step to making artemis truly sustainable over time. We look forward to assisting in achieving its goals and will continue to provide independent objective and comprehensive oversight of this effort. Thank you. Thank you. I would now like to recognize doctor griffin for his testimony. Ranking member sorensen, members of the committee, thanks for the invitation to appear here today. I will try to use less than my five minutes and i will be direct. In my judgment, the Artemis Program is excessively complex, unrealistically priced the compromises crew safety, poses high mission risks of completion and is highly unlikely to be completed in a timely matter even if successful. This matters because the selfdeclared adversary, the Chinese Communist Party Together with their russian partner fully understand the role that being on the space frontier has in the world of global power politics. We seem no longer to understand that. For the United States and its partners not to be on the moon when others are on the moon, it is unacceptable. We need a program that is consistent with that theme. Artemis is not that program. We need to restart it, not to keep it on track with the subject of the hearing. The congress should provide direction to the executive branch to address this issue. Thank you. I would request my full written statement to be entered into the record, and i will stand down for your questions. Without objection, so ordered. I will turn to myself now for five minutes of questions. Nasa announced it is targeted for launch in september 20th, 2025. Could you share the scheduling margin built into the updated two and three launches . Thank you, chairman lucas. Appreciate the question today. Weve adjusted the schedule based on crew safety. As you recall from coming out of artemis one, we had a tremendously successful mission, and one of the follow on investigations from that mission is the performance of the heat shield. That has taken us some time to analyze the data of the heat shield from a thermal perspective but we saw some unusual characteristics and we want to fully understand that before we put them on artemis to so that has contributed to the delay. We have sufficient time to complete that with a ten month adjustment to the launch schedule. Also we have additional capabilities on the spacecraft, the life support systems have proven to be more difficult and challenging and during the testing of some of the systems we identified an issue with a Digital Motor controller that has impacted our ability to be able to continue as previously planned. The additional time that we have given ourselves into the adjusted schedule permits us the opportunity to address the challenges we have seen with of the Digital Motor controller. Ns and those are all encapsulated with the margin that we have on the schedule for the september 2025. There is margin built into the schedule for us to complete all of the necessary testing and to be able to address the regular processing with Lessons Learned that we had from the artemis launch. To the rest of the panel. Based on these margins you believe these schedule launches are realistic . Whoever cares first. I can jump in. I think artemis to provides more time to get through the issues and the heat shield light support challenges referenced. The one thing that jumps out with of the revised date is the span of time between artemis two and three is one year. So, if you consider the successful conclusion of artemis one in 2022, and now its going to be a few years to do essentially the same artemis test flight of the second time with of the crew, it is more complicated. So theres not a lot of time and as you saw, there are things that are going to happen that you need to learn, that you need to investigate. One year is not a lot of time to do that. Turn around and be ready for a september 2026 launch date. So that is the one scheduled pressure that we see with the date. Any observations you would care to add . I would say the Lunar Mission is very doable on the timescale. I dont think the landing is realistically scheduled. Thank you chairman lucas. Nasa will continue to be scheduled with the mission. Historically certain spaceflight missions in terms of going from contract to development have taken eight and a half years and trying to do it in a more condensed timeframe so based on Lessons Learned, the agency will be better positioned to come up with a realistic launch date for artemis three. You can use to share with of the committee what milestones are used to measure the contractor performance on the human landing system and the spacesuit contracts, and alone with that with the contractors consequences are if they dont meet the milestones by the assigned deadline . With regards to the contact, we have a number of milestones that are significant for the artemis three landing, ultimate crew landing. The first would be an un crew to demo that has to happen prior to the landing. We are keeping track for the human landing system and keeping track of their progress. If you recall they fit a number of test flights and they will conduct the next text flight test flight in the february timeframe. And if they have good schedules to support that launch. We are anticipating a number of launches in the calendar year 24 by hour Industry Partners to support the development of not only the human landing system capability, but also the cryogenic capability that is essential for us to be able to understand the process for refueling the system prior to when we send our cruise. So, we have various milestones throughout the contract that enable us to be able to measure their performance. We also have recently made contract modifications that allow us to incentivize them to meet the milestones on the schedule that we need in order to support the launch date of the crew in september of 2036. I will note we do parallel processing of a lot of our missions, so its not like we have just one year between two and three to get everything accomplished. Right now we are working on the hardware and in particular i will note things like the module shipping here in the spring to the Kennedy Space center for processing to complete assembly of the overriding spacecraft. Orion spacecraft. I expect before we ever launch the vehicle processing will be far enough along that we will be able to take advantage of the one year between the two missions to be able to fully be ready for the mission in september of 26. I would also note if you recall the press conference we did last week where we announced those launch dates we had the Industry Partners online and all of them signed up for the launch date that we are currently showing. Thank you. And before i yield to the Ranking Member i would note ive had several conversations and he is a great deal of confidence i want to pass that along. With that i will yield back with the Ranking Member for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. We have heard from the gao a the nasa ig about the importance of cost transparency. Artemis isnt just one system, one mission or one capability. It is a set of increasingly complex missions and activities. Nasa successfully completed artemis one. Can you explain how they documented the lessons we have learned in artemis one such that we are applying those lessons to artemis two and three . Certainly. We did and extensive Lessons Learned process that enabled us at every level within the organization and within the hardware production with the contractor level or nasa doing integration and analysis to be able to factor that into the learning as well as future missions. As i indicated previously, we are we have a lot of missions and developments simultaneously. What that does is enable us to learn a lesson and we can flow that into all of the developments we have currently ongoing. It also allows us if for example weve already built some equipment we already have at nearly the right level in its production to be able to make modifications and then bring it forward as an example. With the cadence we have established with our missions and Door Hardware has enabled us to incorporate all those Lessons Learned. I will also note to the comment about the cost and cost transparency one of the challenges that we face in answering is the contractors are set up if i buy a three of something i can get it less expensive. When we have established our contracts and purchase some of our equipment and they give us cost savings but what they do is lump the costs together by program and purchases. It doesnt allow us to get appropriations for Artemis Missions. I dont get the appropriation in the number two. I get one for space x, hls 40 ryan, the space launch system. Aggregating the costs where we make the bulk buys and purchases based on different contract mechanisms makes it very challenging for us to put together a permission cost but we are very transparent and the cost members that we have with the structures we have in place and the way we are appropriated. All of these missions build on each other. Humans landed on the surface in 1869. In 2024 we still use some of the same technology that was developed. Eventually going to mars would mean for the science and technology if you will permit me any analysis i was here by the way and watched apollo 11 astronauts walk on the moon. So i remember that and the inspiration that was those from my generation. The analogy that i will use, in a car from today into the early 1900 looked pretty similar in some regards. A steering wheel, wheels, they transport people, any number of people depending on the design but when you look inside the engine, very different. They are. Different machines. The technology that we are going to the moon with this time is very different. The technologies we are developing are in entire industries to support those technologies. Industries, craft trades, things of that nature of that economic engine of the United States as well as our partner in countries. I lived in east texas and i remember everything about that saturday morning when the Space Shuttle columbia disintegrated. I still feel it to this day. Next week we will recognize the day of remembrance to honor the heroes that made the ultimate sacrifice to advance the nations spaceflight and exploration progrs. Know my tim. How do we plan to communicate the upcoming risk as we continue to go further . Would anyone like to answer that . I would like to start out by doing that. Many of us lived through the tragedy of columbia, and many of us witnessed the challenger as well. Those of us who are still within the agency take those lessons very seriously and we make sure when we have a day of remembrance, we remember not only the tremendous line is that these people lived and the sacrifices they made, but we remember why we do what we do and why we are so focused on risk and safety which is the reason, for example, we did not hesitate to adjust the launch date when it became evident to the safety that was of utmost importance with the challenges we were facing. The gentle means time is expired into the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida for five minutes. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. The Chinese Communist party threatens almost every component in the lives of americans obviously. In your written testimony, you didnt mention china at all. Mr. Russell, you mentioned diversity but you didnt mention china. Your testimony does mention the adversary and i wonder if you would expound upon why you went through such detail. With the clarification of others. In my judgment, china, and i want to say the Chinese Communist party, fully understands and frequently says their goal is to be the worlds great power with regards to western democracies thats decadent and ineffective and inefficient. He has other titles, neighboring countries presumes to take control of international waterways. Supervisors, military establishment that has recently sunk other peoples ships fishing in their own waters. Everything about the behavior of the Chinese Communist party suggests that they are there adversary and they say so. To allow a situation to develop where the human frontier is populated by the adversary and we are not there should be unacceptable to this nation and asian partners. It should be unacceptable. We are not on a path to recognize that. The rest of the world looks and will always look to the nations that occupied the frontier and extend the frontier as leaders of the world. I believe that is a position the United States should occupy in preference to the adversaries. Thank you. Thank you. And you mentioned frontier. Added to that ultimately military high ground. Whoever controls space will control the destiny. As you know ive spent considerable time in the National Security side of the Space Programs as well and i really consider them to be one program. But i came here today to discuss civil space and we can discuss military space at another location. Hell should america make it our goal that it emerges first among equals when it comes to setting standards . We have had a couple hearings on that. The standards are set by the people that show up. They are not set by the people that watch what happens with others. So, by returning to the moon and the focused and expeditious manner which we are not today, we will inevitably be required to bring along communications and navigations and other infrastructure systems, which we expect others will use as well. By that mechanism we will have established the standards just as we did a starting at the end of world war ii for global air transport. But again, those are facts on the ground created by the people that are on the frontier first. They are not created by the people that follow. Thank you, doctor. What specific steps have been taken to address what some consider to be the outdated gas and propellant big plans into underground systems at Kennedy Space system to ensure that we have the capacity to support our moving commercialpa sector . So the infrastructure of the space center as well as all of our centers is very much aging, and we are aware of that within i will tell you from the artemis perspective we are investing heavily in the capabilities we need to support the Artemis Mission. Last year, we had over 70 launches from Florida Space coast. Its an exciting time for all of us in the space industry. Most of us were on the cape side what we had a number of them from our side of the Kennedy Space center. The most important way to support those, weve poured heavily into this but we recognize that theres still more that is needed there. Many of the launches from the area are commercial in nature and we have used agreements with our commercial and Industry Partners that allows them to be actually invested in the infrastructure as well. We know as an agency that our infrastructure is older than i am in some cases. And our leadership has established nasa 2040 which is an internal effort to look at all of the agencies infrastructure and Mission Support functions to be able to set us up properly for what the agencys mission is going to be in the timeframe. The chair now recognizes the raking member. Think it mr. Chairman. Now, if i understand that our effort to go to the moon is going to rely on at least five major multibilliondollar development programs. It would have to sync up perfectly. The orion crew vehicle the expiration ground system, the human landing spacesuits. That are going to be keep your cured under different acquisition mechanisms. I would like to know about the cryogenic food management and other new technologies. What happens if these five major programs do not sync up or one gets slowed down . How do we proceed . Could you address that . Certainly, thank you for the question. We establish the moon to mars office just lester pursuant to the nasa authorization act to do just what you are talking about to integrate all of those programs and to ensure we are properly level loading the risks between those programs they can all converge together for a mission. We know its going to be challenging and difficult especially to begin to later missions to align to the same timeframe. Continue to develop hardware for the subsequent mission so we can be ready to execute a mission as soon as all the elements are available. We also recognize there might be some development and Technology Challenges that come along the way. We have a very flexible and adaptable Mission Structure that allows us to make updates to our Mission Profile if we need to in the event one element in the Artemis Programs cadre does not make it in time for the original plan admission. Just following up if one is delayed what happens to the whole program . We would depending on how long the delay is the reason for the delay potentially execute a slightly modified version of that mission. I mentioned that only because we have set in place for our agency a process that allows us to keep our eye on the exploration objectives. We can modify the content to adjust and accomplish those objectives. Unlike verbs objectives will meet flute Space Shuttle missions each was independent with artemis we are building a capability not just a launch capability but in orbit capability on the surface of the moon over time. As any largescale Development Activity knows, when you do that you can make adjustments for when something is delivered late or something shows up differently you focus on another aspect or another objective youre trying to achieve. Me ask you this. The ig issued a report at october of last year about the supplychain monitoring. What has nasa done to adopt those recommendations relative to the artemis supply chain . We certainly do appreciate our governing organizations that provide us feedback and contribute to the benefit of the program. We have looked at our supply chain and supply Chain Management and look at how we can better manage that and i will speak again to what he mentioned previously, moon to mars Program Office was deliberately established so we can connect all of that were previously disparate programs and look across the board and address of the supply chain issues. I also up the landing on the moon it was a stunning thing. But at the time i thought how is this helping us here on earth . I listen closely to the assessment of the chinese i completely agree with him. I do think its important to outline for the American Public why it matters to them. I am wondering if you can outline efforts to explain why this matters to america. And i concur in the comment the administrator has huge confidence. If you could answer that. Thank you thats a little embarrassing i will admit. Also one of the efforts weve done within the last couple of years of focus on the why the why of exploration but we have identified three pillars that you associate with that. Science, National Posture and inspiration. Science its obvious its the while that generates economic benefit wherever it goes and in addition to inspiring the next generation of stem as well as teachers and those of us who look to the scientific discovery with wonder and decide thats want something i want to learn more about and pursue. Additionally National Posture weve spoken about that a little bit already with the testimony. I will state we believe the administrator spoke about it last week will be on the surface of the moon before china is. There are other Government Agencies that can provide a much more detailed briefing we can do in different environment that can give you more insight information about chinas progress and about our progress along those lines. I mentioned two of the three pillars the third one is inspiration. It is what inspired me too pursue a stem career inspired many people in my generation and develop the next generation we are starting to see it and we hope to that inspiration not just here in the United States but around the world too. I thank you very much. By the way before gilda back we had an astronaut come meet with students in hollister, california. Just a few days ago inspiring those young people is very important. I think you mr. Chairman and the and theyield backtracks a gentle deals back before he turned to my next colic for questions i would note since his true confession time yes i was nine years old that summer t. [laughter] but it might part of rural oklahoma we had one television station we only had a. M. Radio in this strange concept called party lines for a phone system for. I remember those big. You know exactly how manyrelt you said on the phone. That said i turned to the gentleman for five minutes. Think it mr. Chair. The Artemis Mission is all about returning humans to the moon but advancing Technology Fostering international corporations, stimulated the economy, unsecured ignites its position as leaders in Space Exploration. Similarly in the 1960s we were again faced with a space race only this site with the chinese not just the russians. The United States must be a leader of space to mislead by setting the standards we know will continue incredible innovation and advancement we have fostered here. A keen understanding is important implications of the program for economy, National Security, and advancement of technology but do think we need to evaluate the real challenges of nasa facing to achieve their goal in a timely and costeffective manner. Im going to take away from her typical question and give it to a little bit of medicine as a position. Recently the u. S. Department of Veterans Affairs Walter Reed Army institute of research have come together to look at a Promising Technology to address the dysfunction in the diseases weve seen in human beings but also an astronaut for some reason we do not even know aware of the work at the va this is a question i understand im talking outside the normal purview. Is nasa aware of this state addressing the dysfunction . Would they be willing to work towards advancing technology to help these astronauts protected protecttheir energy cells if yo . You may or may not know this about me but one of the interesting career paths, parts of my career path as i spent five years rent to Human Health Performance director of the Johnson Space center in houston, texas. As an engineer writing help the medical organization very fascinating and learned a lot of things about human physiology. And how very little we actually understand how the human system response in a microgravity environment and wheat today do not understand how the human system and a microgravity followed by partial gravity back to microgravity. The longest duration crewmember that we have recently returned last year end he only spent 371 days in space. But we go to mars will have to spend close to 1000 days in space i recognize the human as a system as some think we need to investigate and explore further. I also know we have done a number of studies in a number of investigations with the team we have the Johnson Space center on the exact problem you indicated. I am not in going to try to spell it or say it. I am not a physician. I will say we have made Great Strides in understanding that only what happens to the astronaut but what happens to the astronaut and how that can then apply to similar i will say subjects on the ground. The transferring of the technology and information is made Great Strides in the number of medical fields you can buy in equipment that we used for treating astronauts in an emergency room anywhere in the United States and around the world. We partner with them and with others. I would welcome further conversation on that and putting you in touch with some of the folks that do that work on a regular basis. In fact if you want to consider someone to a pilot and a physician and a congressman go to on those missions now. O keep that in mind thank you. Doctor goodman . It is no secret try to has a goal to surpassing assays by 2045. We cannot allow this to happen. The leading edge we have in Space Technology will protect the United States not just the economy but technology they can benefit humankind like we just discussed. As yes its works recruit additional International Partners how can we the government continue to promote diplomacy over chinas no limits question you see countries like india putting a vehicle in the dark side of the moon for about 75 million. Granted its not man it does cut corners it may beat on the same bureaucracy requirements back we partner with other countries to make this a more efficient process . There will be effectively partner with other countries is to establish we are going to do great things. And that there is room for everyone of like mind to join us we cannot partner with people with an empty bag. We have to be clearly seen to be doing things in an efficient expeditious focus determent way. When that happens partners will appear for. In a yield with the statement this investment is an investment in the future and has great economic and technological benefit to us as we continue. Thank you. Puts the gentleman yields back i recognize my colleague. Thank you chair lucas Ranking Member sorensen for holding this hearing. Thank each of the witnesses for joining us today. Theres one state perhaps unexpectedly this with the as the homes of colorado freight navigation tools to the orion capsule self color is advanced Aerospace Infrastructure has been pivotal in the development of these missions. Im also proud to say i represent many of the workers have made artemis possible and will continue my support for these mission. However i think we have heard a lot of concerns about the time timeline for the Artemis Mission. And some think we have been beating around the bush about his overall funding for nasa and why they had the money to carry these missions out. The associate administrator particulate will be here today about the pressures you have to cut cost to maintain crew safety to keep things on time but also when we have a congress that has been unable to pass overhe impls if nasa is appropriate with flat budgets not just 2024 foot potential the rest the decade question are. Artemis to come out of three, honors four, artemis five. Consistent to keep the cadence of those missions to what we can keep our team fresh and keep our team active and produce the hardware in a timely fashion. We have been challenged by congress to have an annual cadence of our mission. If we get stuck and a flatline flat lineor reduced budget kindf environment but that means is we will prioritize the nearterm mission. They will be prioritized those other missions and the interval will continue to push out to the right. It would be if i hope we would not be faced with that situation. But that is how i would envision that plank out. I would add resources more than just budget in my mind. Time is also a resource but also personnel is a resource. One of the benefits of flying these missions as we inspire the next generation of engineers, of technicians part of welders, these people can actually do the work. There is a tremendous shortage of Skilled Labor in some areas that as i am sure if you know some of the contractors in this home state will tell you it is sometimes challenging to find the right skill level for building and doing the things were trying she was artemis. Consistency and budget but the resources and inspiration we can inspire the next individual who come help us b to building. Think it is a very good to be willing to take these jobs. In that same vein and your experience what can be impacted flat budget in uncertainty for short hair and shut down threats which we have had many of. In its ability . Im sorry. In my experience in both dod and nasa multiple occasions over the years it is not so much a flat budget that is a problem. Most of the time i would welcome a flat budget if i knew was going to have it. It needs to be at an appropriate level to accomplish the task at hand. But flatness in itself is not an issue. The issue is mom we do not have an appropriation on time year after year the government does very little work itself it may plant and integrate but the work is done by american industry and in some cases our partner industry. When we stop and start that funding and skipping our appropriation cycles as we get did in 2008 that is a huge problem. Thank you very much i yield back the remainder of my time. The chair recognize the gentleman from california for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Over a decade ago almost two decades ago elon musk began telling us here on the capitol and around the country anywhere someone would listen is the United States was getting ripped off. That and fact it should not cost more and take longer to take the same basic rocket and drive the same number of pounds into space. Until he got through the almost infinite blockaded by the establish launch people, nothing happened. Today we are launching and in theory we are launching for a less. But my question is what ever happened to fixed firm . An affair . Whatever happened to that. Are there any reason these contracts particularly to go to the moon and circle it half a century afterward he did it. Nasa has been challenged for the incredible cost and scheduled estimates. They have not met that challenge is that more or less correct . And weight we would take most transparent that is corrected. While it certainly appropriate to have commercial partners involved in the launch activities, key challenge we continue to remind the agency important to hold them accountable for delivering the promised goods and services of the promised price. We previously reported at times even the contractors are behind schedule and over cost n genero. This is less about the who makes you hold them accountable for delivering at the price they promise. A followup to that. You are in the business of figuring out the why. Is it because the contractors are not living up to their original promise . Perhaps never intended to or as a portion of the blame Shifting Sands of nasa, starting a project endlessly changing it even when its to return to do what you did half a century ago . Their various factors contributing to these challenges want as workforce challenges you can set a work requirement you do not have the workforce to execute that is challenging. Workforce is a great question. He did the historic incumbents or a newer or the newer combination isnt that in the bid . Exercise optimism you get the workforce to complete the work. Some contractors are competing for the same workers and again whether its workforce issues changing requirements on nasas manassas park, although set into the cost on nasa experiences on some of his contracts. Its about accountability for holding the vendors that are the responsible for the promising. Im going to go back again. When you look at the current cost overrun and time delays and you pull your slide rule out and figure out why or do we have to rely on computers now that cost more and take longer . Sorry but i cannot resist the fact we truly did go to the moon with slide rules we now seem to take longer with more indecision on retracing the steps perhaps because were not measuring the slide rule . Our work previously talked about some of the challenges nasa face with magic part of it is so pure out over optimism. Sometimes a confidence in getting things done overrules what you know is going to take to get it done. Part of it is in cathy spoke to this earlier the unstable funding stream. Its hard to plan the long term if youre not sure about your term. Ng machine in the n and finally making sure you continue to grow the workforce within nasa and the industry to continue to support the work youre doing. There are a number of challenges. If we assume for a Moment Congress is not going to change. We assume for a moment the moon is not moving differently than it did half a century ago. What should we demand a nasa do in order to deliver the rest of artemis two and three on time and with no greater overruns that we have art experience . What would be the steps congress will be required to take . It my view is lock it down making out lifecycle cost and schedule quickly understand the world is complex and things will change but its incredibly important f an initial idea of what its going to cost to get it done. I thank you for the questions could go on again and again but i probably really would have to bring a slide rule opposed to correctly the overrun. So with that i yield back at mr. To be fast fastening to washington slide ruler. Of got a whole bunch of my collection for. Not a doubt it all in my mind for the chair now recognizes congresswoman lee for five minutes per. Thank you, mr. Chairman and Ranking Member. Serve it in this office for over a year now has been a unique experience learning more about scientific communities on the way be on personal recent and clement weather across the country is affected us all in one way or another. To the use of satellite is crucial for meteorologists like yourself mr. Sorensen to make more accurate and timely weather predictions are ultimately improving our responsibility of various weather events. Work of scientists here on earth and 1000 miles above that will help innovate our approach towards realizing things like cleaner air and water. Sustainable infrastructure more equitable transportation southwest pa and across the nation today we discussed the path forward and hopefully planning our first woman on the moon. In this arena the concept of failure is an essential step in the pathway to success. I am proud to represent in pittsburgh who for the last 16 years has worked tirelessly to make returning americans to the men service a reality at last weekor an unfortunate anomaly the unforgiving nature of the space environment it also further highlights that success the success we can achieve of innovation and boundaries the launch and reentry to earths atmosphere tomorrow cup vehicle flight provided irreplaceable knowledge, experience and insights into making artemis in the u. S. Return to the moon the same success on more flights propulsion control or thermal control systems have been tested and qualified critic new capability in the u. S. Industrial base that could be utilized for other missions and programs in the future. I say it now set the time to retreat upon the ability to adapt and respond to failures we must continue to support efforts the nation gets the benefit of hardearned Lessons Learned for that and others like it. What setbacks are often inevitable in science and Light Commercial space industry like us robotic scientists measurable value and critical to the Artemis Mission. Why is it critical for the nation to keep missions on those on Payload Services despite the challenges . Part of our charter is also to develop economic while that generates and stimulates activity in the space sector. And so what we have been doing with the commercial Services Contract clips lose the weight we refer to that. Is one of those opportunities to help spur on the development of space entrance or space industry in the big name set up and out there for years. They do contribute tremendously to the Artemis Program we want to make the entrance of bar lower so that we can more broadly generate Economic Activity across the board. Plus we find a lot more innovation and some of these commercial providers. It was disappointing and challenges last week we still get tremendous data. We will continue to get data as we launch those. Its really important for us to have precursor missions that gives us data that helps inform and enable and it makes our mission safer. But we discovered and they learned last week what we discovered over number of tragedies is Space Exploration is unforgiving. Its infinitely safer and recently talking to the first flight directors from that era he told me he did not realize until more recently how close they were to having a National Tragedy during a number of the apollo missions. They were young and did not understand what they did not know. We are a lot smarter now with the missions we have flown and every step we make with artemis makes it safer as we explore. Thank you. That is my time so i will yield back in now instead of launching into another question and i appreciate you all for coming today and for sharing your testimony. A gentle lady yields back i would note to the witnesses we are still 40 minutes away from noon. After consultation with the Ranking Member i believe we will do another round. Conscious of your time. Associate director, lets go back for a moment to the measure contractor performance discussion. You talk about the incentives contractors produce ahead of schedule, on time and i think its always very important lets discuss for a moment what are the consequences for contractors if they do not meet the milestones by the assigned deadline . Again depends on the type of contract that we have. We have performance awards associated with not meeting milestones for affirmed it depends of the contract as written. They have to perform and in some cases we have penalties they have to reimburse the u. S. Government for the cost and buy it reimburse its decrements the payment they would get in that milestone payments. They may not for example get a mild storm payment if they dont meet in a timely fashion. So again it depends on the mechanism what penalties we can put into place. While some ways to reflect the performance in a more broad scale to the rest of the community so it does affect the ultimate bottom line. Speaking of the milestones, have any of the milestones been divided up into interim milestones or had they been created to allow for earlier payments . I ask because the data it would be helpful in providing insights into the program process. Im not entirely sure i understand the question we do break certain milestones up and i can speak to the experience i had managing the commercial if we got to a milestone about the contractors did not do all of the things completely meet in a timely fashion we would withhold a certain amount of that word. So instead of getting accepted xmas a certain amount. We did that based on the value judgment for what the milestone was worth. We have the opportunity in some cases not all, it was money that came back to the program. But in some cases we would defer the payment until it accomplished it in a manner in which we needed. There are plenty of opportunities we got from them and inkind work, additional work and benefit to the u. S. Government that was performed as a result of them being late on some of the milestones for. I think sometimes we get questions from appropriators and other oversight entities that perhaps the milestones should be of course designed to accomplish the work in an efficient and effective fashion. But, the milestones not be designed just to help the contractor move along her. I would say it mutually. A lot of times when we award these the contractor proposed to the u. S. Government with they would like to see in the milestones as part of the negotiation before we were that contract we will adjust the milestones with the values and the timing of them also to make sure it meets the timeline that we need for whatever the contractor is providing. Speaking of the international element. Again to you associate director. The space center it would would providecrew and science a. How will nasa and uae share costs related to this partnership . Ask i would say we share costs. When we negotiate an International Partner to artemis or any activity there is a value we assess we, the u. S. Government assess on what they are contributing. And then inkind we return a bite to them. So for example that uae will be providing the airlock. We, nasa will be training a crew member give them an opportunity to hold on the gateway space station its more of a value to value as opposed to a cost. By the way is the uae an important concept . It actually is critical. It enables us to have access to internal as well as external access to scientific payloads we can put on the gateway and it enables us to do maintenance on the gateway. Having an airlock provides more flexibility for how we use the space station and the lunar orbit for future missions. Having different elements of the Artemis Program to have the flexibility. Ranking member, humor me for one more question. Uaes International Partnership they have resources which is critically important but i asked this question in the context of the technology. They also have a history of partnering with china and the lunar efforts. For instance the same entity has an agreement to include a rover on the Chinese Mission to the lunar south pole. I guess my question is how, we are part of the people partnering with others how do we ensure the technology shared to the partnership doesnt shall we say can inadvertently contribute to someone elses space capacity . Fairly rigorous export process that monitors and manages our interactions with International Partners at every level to ensure exactly what you just said does not happen. Ask my time has expired but i recognize a gentleman mr. Sorensen for five more minutes. In my Opening Statements i had mentioned how important it was to bring in a nasa astronaut to my district. He is with the backandforth with the one of the simple problem she discussed with me and with the students in my district as we were going to school was that spacesuits were designed for men. They were not designed for women. That was something she had to deal with in real time. And so that brings me too another line of questioning. With mr. Russell. Gao on Artemis Programs note challenges in developing and testing the exploration spacesuit. Can you discuss these challenges and what measures can nasa take to help address such challenges including issues we have with the supply chain . Certainly, thank you for the first challenge to note is originally nasa was to help address such challenges including issues we have with the supply chain . I think the first challenge to note is originally nasa was designed the spacesuits and house and then made the decision to contract that out. Which is happening now. We take a look at some the current challenges. With sufficient lifesupport. You have confidence the system can operate and sustain the astronaut life is they go to the mission. There are some technologies that need to be matured there. Some refinements to the requirements the contractors are working on. That some of the key things we reported two and a recent report. I would like to go a little bit more indepth on that. Could you talk about the significant work that is needed to matured technology for the exploration spacesuit lifesupport system mr. Russell was talking about. Are they on the Critical Path for artemis three . Does nasa have the roadmap for how spacesuit lifesupport systems will be matured and maintained . As it was noted, nasa designed the spacesuits made that design available to u. S. Industry to be able to produce. What if our spacesuit providers is using that design we have a long history of doing spacewalks and developing spacesuits. But also managing spacesuits and managing those systems. I stated very clearly a spacesuit is like a personal spacecraft its very complex. Its us different systems a space craft would have but a much smaller environment. Of various sizes and shapes. And so the design and development of the hardware for that were trying to foster that in our commercial Industry Partners. Where helping them. With the testing through the task agreements it really is a Partnership Activity even though it is a Service Contract they are doing the development of the exploration suit. Nasa signing sidebyside with them and enabling that to happen. Out to anyone who wants to answer are there other opportunities for Public Private partnership we have not done yet . For instance with spacesuits to open it up to companies to come up with the technology to learn. Are there other ways as we look forward to artemis to an artemis three that we can look forward to that . I will offer theres plenty of opportunity. Not just in space suits but every element we are adding with artemis. For exploration is an annual review. All of our centers get to weigh in on the path nasa is moving forward on. We show the output review. The International Partners with academia. To identify opportunities for partnerships but what were doing Exploration Alliance with the direction our stakeholders one is to go. Great so we are on the right path for artemis to . I believe we are. If i might add i would add that if the United States and its International Partners have a consistent program to return to the moon and stay that there are an enormous number of Infrastructure Development opportunities available in which commercial industry can invest because they know there will be a return. So i mentioned communication, navigation, command in data handling, data storage, the Cooks Program was brought up. There will be a need in supplying a human lunar base for all types of cargo ranging from small highvalue items to bulk cargo that industry could supply if they know theres going to be a consistent market for such. I think that is an important going back to the men were going back to the moon to stay. I would hope so. Although ive been trying for over 30 years to promote such an activity and have so far failed. I possibly should retired from the field for. No dont do that he yelled back a. Never speaking of never giving up i reckon is a gentleman from california for five minutes per. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Associate director, you talked about reducing mortality potential mortality. We have lost 15 astronauts over the years. I guess my question is what has space . Safer over time and if more redundancy. More capability in our system. As extremely unforgiving. We have more safeguards and safety in the system. Were looking at significant delays in doing something we did before. Nobody died going to the moon and back. As a matter of fact the program that killed most of our astronauts was the cost saving redundant use new and improved shuttle. I killed the majority of astronauts have died. The majority of astronauts we learned come but the bag of oxygen on the ground not be able to get off quickly. There have been lessons. Ive listened for quite a while to the spacesuits and what we are going to do. There were new to space i am sorry but we have had women in space for longer than some members of congress have lived now. I will ask again. Were looking at overruns and delays. Reporting to figure out there we had 2. 9 is not insignificant number. We suddenly go from nearly 700 flights and 19 dead to almost nobody of those flights. We are looking at the cost and delivery are we looking for new solutions to things which have already been solved . Our inverted writing instrument and the russians . And for those who have not seen it, exactly. We came up with a space of pin pin costmillions but they came a pencil and for redundancy they had a second one. And so again as we are looking at from fixed pricing predictability of time should we push nasa to accomplish the mission with the highest level of reuse of Technology Works for new technology which inherently brings in, at least in my examination it brings in Risk Assessment of new Technology One only needs to look at the boeing max and asked the question is there anything that knew about a 7 30 seven going 34000 feet . No. But somehow every change is a variable. If we are looking to deliver on time on budget are we doing all the right things or are we doing all of the things that have led us to this ivitable delay and cost overruns . Great question. As i see it nasa is at an Inflection Point right now. They are about to set the commitments for a number of these efforts. You referred to the Firm Fixed Price contract and things. Once you settle on a number that great you can hold them to that price, that deliverable but it is up to the government to have stable requirements. When you change the requirements that changes the deal that you have with the contractor that could cause additional funds. Right now what we expect to see for. The changes are all the world the prophetess is not right question. Just that equals dollars its a costplus contract, if there is a delay youre paying the contractors cost the fee goes along with that. I think as we look to the new efforts on how the technical and cost based art and the realism will be very important. We will see in the coming 12 to 18 months whether the projects can adhere to the baselines. To the challenges theres going to be at margin for cost and schedule reserves to deal with issues. But the fidelity and the realism will be extremely important for what are for new and novel technologies. A lot of these systems is not just a rocket has a payload thats never been done before there are a lot of firsts. The way the hls system will work with the sent with essentially a gas station in space that will fill up the lander and help accomplish the mission. All of those are new and novel things. So capturing the technical risk putting in a realistic baseline will be essential. Thank you, mr. Chairman i yield back for. I yield back for. A gentleman yields back. Seeing no additional questions i want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony we will have a more of these hearings and expect what the different attitude from mother nature, a really big crowd. The record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions are the members for this hearing is adjourned. [background noises] [inaudible conversations]