Of the system cant sustain a shock and a trigger zone reaction. I would talk about black lives matter with all of the people walking through the streets and cities like baltimore saying we live in a country where almost every 28 hours an africanamerican man or woman is shot dead lethal force, usually unarmed, we have video of our Police Actually murdering unarmed civilians and yet despite the outcry it continues. And we have in the last month seen a space of shootings of police officers, one in new york, two in mississippi just the another day another one and i am hoping these are just incidental and you know but if that becomes a pattern, that is certainly would replicate the societies that are declining where people reach such a rage they lash out. The state has turned their back on people like you and me how affective are these rebellions . Black lives matter . Occupy wall street . Snowden . Well, they are affective in this sense. They expose the lie that the state uses or the myth the state uses to explain itself to the public. You know the idea we have a right to privacy and you know from the stone revelations we are the most photographed population in human history. I covered the collapse of the state. You cannot use the word liberty when you are watching 24 hours a day by the government. You never want to give that government that kind of power because when they acrude that coupled with militarized police coupled with a legal system that renders those of state target defenseless if they feel threaten they will use all of the tools at their deposable to protect themselves. So i say in the book, i begin the book by talking about past revolutions and revolutions coming in waves so you see what is happening in greece, what happens in spain affecting what happens in ireland and other parts, revolutions are nonviolent mostly. They say no revolution, and i think it is correct, is successful until significant segments of the internal Security Apparatus defect or are no longer willing to protect and discredit the power elite. Despite there was violence in the Russian Revolution but what broke the back of the regime was the red riots in 1917 and they sent it back to the bizarre enforces and refused to fire on the crowd and fraternized with the crowd and they have to rush from the front to the back. I watched the same thing in east germany and that was until our state the most sophisticated apparatus for surveyillance in the soviet union even. So the communist dictator is upset about the street demonstrations with 70,000 people are marching through the street protesting the communist regime and sends town para troopers to fire on the crowd and they get there and refuse to fire and the power is dropped in a week. The shaw flees the country and the the armed forces in 1979 are no longer to protect them and the clerics are able to take over. That is how revolutions work. And it goes back to a 1978 essay called the power of the powerless. I cover about the revolution in the theater every night. But it is that stating of the truth that becomes more and more obvious to the Wider Society. And obvious finally to those who are within the organs of power. They are no longer willing to proequity it the discredited elite and i have been involved with groups like occupy and been a pierce opponent of people who talk to police and do Property Damage because i believe the greatest strength is living in truth and stating the truth. Because once revolutions become violent, it empowers those woo have not only the capacity for violence or tension for violence but access to weapons and who prefer to speak in the language of violence and do that with each other and to opponents. And that is how lennon gets the soviets; through violence. And have been been a foreign correspondence in societies like the war in el salvadore i dont want us to go there. I believe a large enough segment of the population probably three to five percent, we find are willing to put their bodies in the street, we will affect hopefully nonviolent change because at this point i think it is fair to say we are not going to, at least in my analysis going to affect change through the traditional performance mechanisms because they have been aviserated by Corporate Power. I think this is over. How many years did you spend at the New York Times . 15. You have written about 12 books . Maybe 14. Wages of rebellion the moral imperative of revolt is the most recent. If you live in the east and central time zone there is the number there. Lets go to jim in ohio. Jim, you are on with author chris hedges. Caller the background noise there is tremendous. Hopefully you can hear me. Peter slen you are the best at what you do. Mr. Hedges i am a retired School Teacher and have two books on my kindle of yours now. You will be glad to hear i brought those. You put your finger on every black hole in the public structure. The only other personal i have seen like this is christopher hitchson who can talk on any subject is similar to this. I know it is terrific you know the topic so well. In your books, the world as it is, you make the following statement, which i believe you mentioned with peter, democracy will be replaced with a Robust National police state. And of course, you know this goes to a lot of the people watching but i want to put on a note of optimism. I think there is a tilt beginning to happen. There may be a reflection point and maybe the police and military are going to be more or less falling in line with the people as you stated in one of your talks when someone put the handcuffs on you they were saying keep it up. You want to speak to the fact maybe there is a Tipping Point in the election. Jim, thank you much for the nice words and for your call. That is why nonviolence is so important. We have to appeal for the content of those within the power structure. If we view the power structure as a kind of monolithic enemy as a force where people of good conscious dont reside we are finished. I was arrested in front of the whitehouse with the veterans for piece and when they cuffed us they have been in the National Guard and hated the war and as i was cuffed they said keep protesting the cars. The state recognizes that and one of the reason they passed the law to prohibit the military from being able to police the street is because they dont trust him. I want to go to the Tipping Point. In some ways rand paul could have written parts of your book. Is that a correct statement . Yeah i mean i am not a libertarian because i feel the only effective mechanisms we have for Corporate Power is government and by making government more anemic we make Corporate Power more global. Who is going to make sure that bp doesnt go back to the gulf is largely a dead zone but who is going to make sure these things dont happen . You need a mechanisms or a super structure so i disagree with them on that. On the issue of imperil war and surveillance the libertarian are good and recognize the danger of both. So we are in convergence. I know rand paul puts articles i write on his web site usually on these issues. I spent 20 years on the outer regions of empire and i understand the mechanisms of emp pire in a way that americans who have not been there dont. And the senate is in on sunday debating the surveillance and patriot act and usa freedom act as it is called. They will be coming in sunday afternoon. Larry from washington. Hi larry. Caller hi, it an honor to speak to mr. Hedges. Saw you have at the powell bookstore in Portland Oregon a while back. I am wondering several things. When marcos was thrown out the army turned on him, too. My question is do you think the iraq war was dick cheneys salvaging haliburtin who is new in dubai . The iraq war and i was a vocal opponent of the call to invade iraq. I was the bureau chief for the New York Times, i spent times years in the middle east, and i speak arabic and i would say the arabics within the intelligence committee, pentagon and state department would say the whole reasoning of invading iraq was based on a nonreality belief system. The idea we would be greeted as liberators and the oil reb new paid for the reconstruction and the plan of being imelemented in baghdad was a nonbelief. I think many of the people like cheney and others believed their own rhetoric. They have no experience in the middle east at all. And they are historically and linguistically ill literal. I think what is good for corporations is good for america they think. But i would say it is based on a frightening misunderstanding of the region and in particular of the country and what invading would do. They always would say who is worse than Saddam Hussein and isis and and we created isis in the way we did alqaeda. Revolutions when they begin are invisible at least the it Wider Society starting with the discrediting and dismantling of an old language used to interpret power. You write the Keystone Pipeline is part of the final phase of extreme exploitation. I think carl marxs analysts of the inner working of capitalism and where it is going is correct. And he argued unfettered or unregulated capitalism was a revolutionary force. There is no internal force of gathering profits and once the external elements are removed that is free to exploit everything. Human labor and the eco system until a collapse. And that is why the Environmental Crisis is a twin with the economic crisis. 40 percent of the ice is melted shell oil is up and they want to profit off the planet. The tar sands is a dirtier form of energy and there is no rational discourse about helping our children or exceeding generations. It is all about profiting in the most destructive way in the fastest way we can. It is probably very good it is very good for you know the bottom line, for large fossil fuel but bad for the human race. When Civil Society declined the common good is not part of the equation any more. When writing about the nature of unfettered capitalism, it is said when nothing has intrensic value you are in trouble. We need to step back from this mentality. The whole idea the marketplace governs every aspect of Human Behavior is insane. No other society has tried this. It is not working for us. Im 74 years old almost retired army psychiatrist, and i subscribe to a group called tavistock. My question, whats happened to the concept of government of, by and for the people . I firmly believe the entire group that constitutes our citizenry should feel responsible for the entire action of our group. And that would even apply good or bad. It could be world war ii, the extremes on either side are good examples. But what happens if you could get the lower 50 to stop feeling like victims and start feeling like contributors to what we have using, basically one of our pure or actually axiomatic statements . Thats whats on my mind. Guest well i mean the consent of the governed has kind of become a cruel joke. I think we see over and over and we spoke a little earlier in the program about all sorts of programs, including the bailouts. Constituent calls against the bailout were 100 to 1 and yet these banks were bailed out anyway because thats what the big ten citibank, wells Fargo Goldman sachs, wanted and got. And, yes the consent of the government government of, by and for the people means exactly that. A government is a superstructure that is designed to create a quality of life for its citizens. And i would argue in a democracy, watch out for the most vulnerable; children the elderly, the sick mentally ill who weve tossed out, surplus labor. As manufacturing has moved overseas, you go into poor communities of color and these people have no work no opportunity which is why, of course, we have the largest prison system in the industrialized world. 25 of the worlds prison population. Because black and brown bodies cant create money for corporations be theyre out on the if theyre out on the street and no jobs but they can generate 40 50,000 a year if theyre locked in a cage. Thats why theyre locked in cages. So i think on every single level the primacy of corporate profit and Corporate Power has trumped what is fundamental to our democracy, and we immediate to recover we need to recover our country. Host jennifers in new mexico and you are on with chris hedges on booktv, jennifer. Caller hi mr. Hedges, its grade to speak with you. Im a great fan. I have one question well, i have two, but ones really pressing in my mind. Im glad you mentioned ndaa, and i thank you for suing the president on behalf of the american people. We have operation jade helm upcoming in ten states to last two months. Its purported to be a military action, quote, training two months ongoing, and theyre using a lot of special forces. And i assume and its hard for me not to think that that will somehow fall under the provision of the ndaa. Are they coming to kill us . Are they coming to put us in prisons . And my next point would be, my next question to you is have you found, as i have found that based on as much surveillance that were subjected to in all ways of communications, its very difficult for us to organize and to guest right. Caller move forward as a movement of the people against these powers that be. Guest well, lets talk about the ndaa and a judge in the Southern District court of new york who imposed a temporary injunction declaring the law unconstitutional, my former employer, the New York Times, covered the trial and wrote a very good editorial supporting the judges decision, it is clear that they now have the power. And we went to the democratic leadership by the way, the lawyers and myself and said that we would be willing to drop the lawsuit if they would just write into the provision that this did not apply to u. S. Citizens which they would not do because, of course it does apply to u. S. Citizens. And in judge forests opinion she raises the internment of 110,000 japaneseamericans during world war ii and said that this provision permits the government to criminalize in her words an entire group of people. And hold them in essence, in internment camps or military facilities where they can sit without ever seeing a lawyer. So whats happening now were not in a state of crisis. I dont think the state needs to employ that kind of, those kind of draconian forms of control. But should the society disintegrate, should there be the kind of unrest that we see in some European Countries like grease for instance like greece, for instance they certainly will bring in the military if they feel they need the military in order to retain power, and they will use these legal mechanisms which they have created for themselves against us. Were not in a moment of crisis right now. Were in a moment of relative stability. So i think while, yes, you know, they put tanks on the streets of ferguson, missouri against unarmed protesters, why you see glimpses of the capacity of the military state i think wed have to be in a kind of freeforall for us to begin to see this employed on a large scale. Host wages of rebel i dont rebellion, is chris hedges newest book. Carl go ahead. Caller thank you for your insights. Dont know if youre surprised to be allied with rand paul as has been mentioned and even glenn beck in your stance on nonviolent protest. I was curious to know if your book has any insightings on things insights on things that people can do to be persuasive with the government in a nonviolent way. We seem to be in a trend thats violent right now. Are there steps we can take to be effective in protecting in a nonviolent way and not become criminalized as entire groups . Host thank you carl. Guest well, the problem is that even nonviolent protest brings with it the, you know, the use of a legal system that is criminalized [inaudible] for instance, youve seen large numbers of people who are very closely involved with the occupy movement charged with felonies. Theyre often allowed to plea out, but because theyre on poo base, they have probation, they have to be very careful about doing any kind of activism. We have seen the rise of omnipotent policing, most get stacked with plea charges, many of which they didnt commit, and then they bargain their way out so theres a legal system and a physical mechanism that is used to criminalize and will be used to criminalize even nonviolent dissent. And so for me i think it would be foolish to believe that if we were able to bring those numbers into the street, if we were able to carry out sustained acts of mass civil disobedience just because we were nonviolent we would free ourselves from the draconian forms of the state. In some ways, the state fears those mass movements far more than it does anarchic violence, because that kind of violence frightens the mainstream, and it gives the state a license to use violence in return. Host and lynn that is in river linda is in riverton new jersey. Linda, youre on booktv. Caller thank you. Hello, chris and thank you very much for all the work that you do. Im very thankful for the truth that you are able to get out there. I know recently you became an ordained minister. I saw the event online. And i was just wondering personally how you deal with the realization of all these things that are going on around us and just sort of getting up in the morning and spiritually how you can you speak to that on a personal and spiritual level . Host and i, i would theres a lot of spirituality in wages of rebellion as well. Guest yes, there is. I come out of a faith tradition. My father was a minister, i graduated from harvard divinity school, and i was ordained to, in essence continue prison ministry. Because i think finally it is an issue of faith, and i say this to, who have religious creeds or have no creeds, it is the belief that the good draws to it the good or at least the good insofar as we can determine it. And then we have to let it go. Faith is the belief that it goes somewhere the buddhists call karma, an act of faith, standing up in a sense that moral imperative over both which for me is an act of faith is finally not defined for what we can achieve empirically. Things may be worse by the end of our lives. But more importantly, for who it allows us to become as individuals. And i think that were never going to confront these terrifying forces that stand before us whether its the fossil fuel industry the security and surveillance state, unless we remain rooted in some kind of a spiritual tradition that sets us outside of ourselves, that is not tied to the emotional highs and lows that define american culture, that allow us to find validation in the act of resistance itself and not get too caught up in whether its effective or not. Of course, i hope we are effective but even if were not, i dont think that that should anyway diminish the importance of revolt. Ryan hold niebuhr called it sublime madness. And it is that capacity which you know, he relates to the quality of religious mystics which becomes necessary in moments of extremity, and i would agree. Baldwin, james baldwin, the great writer when he writes his essay on how artists and rebels share common characteristics said theyre not they dont so much strive towards a vision as much as they are possessed by it. And i think thats right. And i spend a lot of time in the book talking about those issues because i think i think theyre fundamental if were going to rise up and do what we have to do. Host and cindy in evansville, indiana, we have 30 seconds left. Caller hi chris. I just want to tell you that youre doing a very good job. I just appreciate it. My husbands bought all your books, so thank you. I appreciate it. Bye. Guest i would just close by saying, you know, i dont want fight fascists because im going to win. I fight fascists because theyre fascists. And that when we see what emanuel conte would call a radical evil forces that are wishing to distinguish the forces of life extinguish the forces of life, there is a moral imperative to rise up on our behalf. Host wages of rebellion is the book, chris hedges is the author. Thank you sir. Guest thank you. Host our live coverage from new york continues. All week weve been in new york city and interviewing different people. One of the people we talked to was adam bellow, he is son of saul bellow, the author but hes also an editor and publisher at harpercollins. He has an imprint called broadside. Heres a little bit of our conversation with adam bellow. Guest in this niche there was no presence of conservative books in mainstream publishing. There was only regnery, which is a venerable Publishing Company but really a sectarian outfit that is outside. And proudly so, outside, stands outside the mainstream. We at the free press, that is myself and irwin who is the publisher of free press and my mentor in the business, were engaged in an effort to break down barriers to conservative ideas and expressions. And it was an exciting and consequential thing to do. After some time, after ten years or so when we had enough success that the large Publishing Companies woke up and realized that there was, in fact, a mass market a sizable market for conservative books, then special entrants began to be imprints began to be created and there are now four dedicated conservative imprints at the mainstream houses. Host and that was adam bellow. We taped that interview this week in new york city, and youll be able to see that entire interview on saturday, june 6th, beginning at 7 30 p. M. Our live coverage from new york or our coverage from new york will be shown that evening. Well all week long, as ive said, weve been in new york city and Bookexpo America has been happening which is the publishers convention. Ask one of panels that we covered and one of the panels that we covered was about diversity in literature and diverse the city in the book world. Diversity in the book word. Heres the panel. [inaudible conversations] hello, everybody. How are you . [applause] a little louder please. [cheers and applause] thank you. Okay. First of all for those of you who dont know who we are, we are we need diverse books. Yes, do that again louder. [cheers and applause] and our mission is to address the lack of diverse, nonmajority narratives in childrens literature. And if you guys know a little bit about what happened we started because of here. Bea, bookcon, last year and now were back with three panels this time. Today saturday and sunday. And so weve kind of, i think done a pretty good job of making our presence felt and making people aware that this is an issue that needs to be addressed, and were not going way anytime soon. Away anytime soon, and weve got a lot of people supporting us. So first of all, thank you all for coming, and thank you for your support. [applause] so i have an amazing panel here. And what im going to do is let everybody introduce themselves a little bit and then im going to turn it directly into some pretty serious questions that i want to kind of talk about; the state of publishing and what were doing to change things around. So first im going to start with lamar giles who is not only a published author, but Vice President of communications for we need diverse books. Lamar, talk a little bit about yourself and then share what our next initiatives are for. Certainly, certainly. Im lamar, and ive been a part of this we need diverse books since the beginning thanks to ellen. And weve been working on a lot of new initiatives in order to keep pushing our mission forward. A couple things were working on our walter dean meyer award is going to be presented for the first time next year. And thats an award meant to recognize an outstanding, diverse author who writes an outstanding, diverse book. We decided to do that award partly to honor walter dean meyers who was one of the greatest young adult writes of writers of our generation. Several generations hes been doing it for many many decades but we also wanted to recognize books that might fall through the cracks otherwise. We all know that awards bring recognition and prestige to books and by recognizing diverse books that might fall through the cracks of other award selections we hope to raise the awareness of awesome books and make it more attractive for publishers to publish more of those books and follow in those footsteps. And were also doing some grants. Our walter dean meyers grants will be available for unpublished diverse authors because we all know that its difficult enough to break into this industry. But theres a writer out there who gets this grant and has a little bit of extra encouragement, they could be the next great writer that pushes the Movement Even further. And i can speak a little bit about grants just really quickly. Nine years ago i was a young writer who was very close to quitting. Wasnt having any sort of success. And the Virginia Commission of the arts gave me a grant at a very dark time in my life. And that money really helped my family and helped me keep pushing. And i wouldnt be here if not for that. So were hoping to be able to do Something Like that for writers going forward. [applause] thank you. Okay. So we have Linda Sue Park next to lamar giles, and i have to say im especially thrilled to introduce her because she is the honorary chair of the wndb Internship Program which im going to let her talk about, and we have exciting news about that. Yes, im Linda Sue Park, and im an author. Ive written several picture books and middle grade novels. I want to shout out to my publisher, Houghton Mifflin harcourt, and i do not have a week coming out a book coming out this year, but its just another significant way [applause] i am so excited about the Internship Program, i can hardly talk. Ive had this conversation mostly with Jackie Woodson who many of you know. Weve been around for a while, and we were we often have spoken about how tired we are because the needle felt like it was stuck. We need more diverse books, children deserve to see themselves in books, and when youve been in this long enough, you start to feel like, okay, look we mow what the problem we know what the problem is. We dont knead to talk about the need to talk about the problem anymore. We need answers or at least attempts at answers. And this is what i have felt for so long wasnt happening. And people were trying. Its not that people werent trying, but there was just a limit to the amount of effectiveness. So i was not in at the beginning of wndb. I was watching from the sidelines. I have to confess, ellen, first rolling my eyes and thinking, oh not another one, and is it going to peter out, are they going to do anything. And i saw a difference. I think it had to do with this whole grassroots thing. It was this mass, you know, rather than small pockets. And thats when i jumped in and got involved. So one thing that id actually talked to walter dean about was okay, theres the creator side. We need to support diverse can creators. But then what happens once they get to the halls of publishing right . And i have been privileged to work with so so many wonderful editors and people in publishing but theres no doubt that if you just walk around any new york Publishing House and many of the others you dont see the same kind of diversity in the cubicles that exist in the country. How could we help support that . How could we help change that . Well, many, many publishing professionals get their start as an intern. So if we could diversify the interns, hopefully some of them will stick around long enough to eventually be in positions of acquisition and sales and marketing and power. And that that would we all bring our own histories and experiences and backgrounds to whatever work we do. And i keep trying to think of different ways. Because you say diversity, and some peoples buttons get pushed, right . They dont want to know anymore. So for today i thought, you know im going to talk about choice and variety, you know . Whether youre a writer, a publisher a bookseller a librarian, you want choice and variety for the readers youre trying to reach. More choice more variety is better, all right . So its not that youre not all doing a wonderful job. But wouldnt you like to have a greater range of books for to give your readers a greater choice and variety . So today more me thats what diversity is about, a greater variety of books to reach a greater number of readers. Im talking about more sales, okay . [laughter] if you wont do it because its the right thing to do, do can it because its good business. [laughter] so that is what [applause] that is what and another thing that really excites me about the Internship Program is its a longterm thing. It is not just selling a book that happens to be hot because its diverse today. Were selling what we hope are 20 and 30year, a whole generation of seeds is what we hope the Internship Program will actually do. This year starting out small and manageable five internships. Grants of 2500 to diverse interns who have received an offer from a Publishing House. Many of you who are new yorkers know how difficult it is to live many new york city with a low paying job so we were hoping that people who might not be able to accept an internship job for financial reasons would now be able to at least pay a couple months rent you know if they look in red hook or somewhere [laughter] with this grant that will enable them to to take the job and, therefore, allow a more diverse population who might not have family assistance or whatever to help them accept that job. So we are coming down to the wire of picking our five interns and to our surprise and delight, we have wonderful candidates. Its going to be a really hard choice in the end which speaks very well for the future of our industry and for our publishing partners. We have how many . This year eight . Maybe ten . Maybe ten who have agreed, yes, we will participate in this program. And theyve brought about some wonderful applicants. Its been an amazing process to see. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. [applause] we have matt dela pena who is one of my theyre all my favorite authors, right . But his book just came out and i have to put a plug in, oh, yes, clap for it. Please. [applause] and also his amazing picture book last stop on market street, which is my nephews Favorite Book in the world. [applause] hes also our Advisory Board member, and hes out there. He is out there talking to kids all the time. He sees need. And i would love matt to talk more about that personal sure. Well first of all, i wanted to just mention Linda Sue Park, people like Linda Sue Park have been doing it long before we were even thinking we could be in publishing, write book, so i wanted to just give a hand to Linda Sue Park. [applause] part of what i think we need to do as authors is respect the people who have done a lot of the work before we even got to this. So i think thats important. And what was different about we need diverse books to me, i think was the organization. Like theres actual organization. Maybe its a function of twitter, but i felt like there was a cohesive movement that didnt feel so scattered, you know . First it was a hashtag which we dont know, what is that going to ultimately do . But it turned into something bigger. And all i know is i knew it was a big deal when i was in los angeles a couple months ago, and there was an actual, real film crew and they had me do the video and a little behindthescenes information about that video. It took me nine hours to do, like, two minutes of material because im so selfconscious on video. So they were so nice. But this amazing video came out you know, we had john greene in it a bunch of diverse authors. And i think its sticking because of the cohesiveness. And then what i wanted to just mention in terms of what i see in the field as im forchu anytime enough to do fortunate enough to do a ton of school visits. One of the things, at least from my point of view, im not saying these are the books that should be instead of whats popular its also. Right. And i think thats an important thing because i go to schools i go to some schools, its 100 diverse students. And they love to see themselves in books. But they also love to read a gayle forman book, you know . And i think thats important to remember, that theyre not just reading all of our books theyre reading all the great books that are out there. But the one thing to remember is sometimes they could never get to the gayle forman book if it wasnt for a book that felt like home first. And the one thing about reluctant readers that i saw firsthand for myself as a reader but also the kids i see at schools is that when you are a reluctant reader its kind of important to feel comfortable within the story on page 1. And what is it thats going to give you that feeling of comfort . Maybe its a setting thats familiar or maybe its a point of view character that feels authentically similar to you. So i think thats one of the things that im most focused on is just in the field with this kids on me trying to introduce them to books that will make them feel comfortable. [applause] and now i feel like i dont even need to introduce tim federle, but here is tim, who is amazing and i have to say ive heard people say they think your book really makes a difference. Like, it can change lives. And at these really important times in kids lives, they need that effect. Books save lives, guys. I mean, i think thats a reality. Books save lives. So how has the response been for you . Its been great. I feel very lucky to be on this panel with you guys so thank you for having me. When i wrote better nathan ever, in a way i didnt think i was writing a diverse book. I had come from a background of dancing on broadway, and i moved to new york city 15 years ago to sort of chase that dream. And i did that for about ten years. And when i set out to write nate, it was actually at the advice of my agent, brenda bowen who said write the book only you can write. And so at the time i was working on the show, billy elliot. And i was one of the coaches for the boys in the show. And i felt such a kinship with them. So when i wrote better nathan