Towards an at stake was the terms of doing business moving forward. They wanted the power to set prices and amazon recoiled to be deprived of the deep discounts. While the negotiations went on behind closed doors authors and readers saw the new darker side of the amazon them as they were listed as an available and then they knew delivery betake weeks. Rigo that recommendation people to suggest alternatives those have responded with condemnation to amazon as the bully. And then jeff jesus was liked vladimir putin. And they should reconsider their relationship with amazon and the digital marketplace. Even wall street wavered with longstanding support of the amazon stock as a Share Price Fell 20 of the 52 week high. Now just 10 days ago to set its own prices but that it encourages the publisher to deliver lower prices. Said both have declared victory and have gone home. Said publishers and authors and readers may not be prepared to let them go but the National Book awards last week chastised to put the profit before art even calling up against the prevailing order. And the profit motive was in conflict that we livein capitalism power seems inescapable with the divine right of kings. Ready to be resisted or change by a human beings and that often begins period often with the arch of words. The panel today will consider that challenged a check of the resistance of the digital marketplace it is the future lies in a Digital World then who gets to decide what the world looks like . Enjoyed before that discussion of the writer from publishers but weekly Publishers Weekly. And has covered the field since 1999. To his right is franklin who is editor of the new republic that is celebrating the centennial of 2014. And the republic gave voice to the progressive movement. As an International Best seller as globalization was translated into 27 languages as a writer and documentary filmmaker that was said to your time book review to raise. Broadcast on the Sundance Channel with the series of excursions and finally to the left, warren is from the Booksellers Association from 2009 founded in 1800 it is for the dependency on the books sources that over to five years it has worn many hats as executive director and chief operating officer and a 2013 he was named to the board as her cent of the year. So please give a warm welcome to the panel. I sketched very briefly the impasse that cave meet over the summer. Could you fill in the details . And what did it mean at that time . How did we get here . Train wreck ive assuming most of you have some idea of the amazon and its dispute. But i will ask the question first, over the course of this discussion how many view say they you cited sided with the other . Reps what about amazon . Many of you take one side or the other. [laughter] but it is interesting to be that there was more show of hands on the publishers side they an amazon. You are good to pick that up of some of the. As somebody to cover this for Publishers Weekly and the industry, was disappointed the way it unfolded because it was pitched as the battle as the future for the book but a reality was a negotiation between two parties. We do have that would and it would end with the deal and as public as the debate was it would be a private deal that was confidential. We dont know what is in that contract. But i believe we need to have a good conversation about future digital reading. Talk about Digital Rights management and data and libraries with the confidential public debate makes me think we are a long way from that conversation. So i was disappointed we did not have a broader conversation many had the chance but now they have ended their negotiation with the deal where do we go from here . For a number of years the Book Business has been selling books from amazon. So why did this come to impasse this year . It is about the ebook and refer to amazon as a retailer but in reality it is a platform they invest heavily in the Amazon Kindle and they create the market that we enjoy today. We have the commercial ebook market how we manage that is difficult and we are having a of a little rough start no question. But the real problem was a free talk about amazon in terms of monopoly and also about the cartel controlling 90 percent of the bestseller list one Company Controls 50 of the bestseller list so where would the commercial ebook book market me if left to those five publishers . Probably not where it is now. So were seeing the beginning stages of a longer battle of how people access digital books. But there was a negotiation between to private parties why should we care . And announce a deal 10 days ago both sides said deborah happy he also told the New York Times he was happy but if those two parties are happy why shouldnt people in in this room be happy as well . Stomach well talk about the price of books and authors are compensated is a big part of it. But it if you accept to the future of reading is digital. Id because the tyrol and four yearold act like they were bored with it and they love books but if we except the future is digital then well accept a world where platforms to have one certain device. Involve the issues are sorted out behind closed doors and the public does not have the seat on the table. Because there should be some transparency. So we be told them to a different standard if it is hashed out. But frankie went to see them held as a monopoly . That will take some work because of antitrust law. But you talk about the size of the dominance with a 67 of the ebook sales of that is very powerful. It is overwhelming. And reduce debt back decades when antitrust wasnt forced in this country those would spur the government to intervene and break up the company. Let me start you describe the republicans as being leftleaning and i say that because i believe in capitalism income from a position on the centerleft that does not favor a the government intervening with of very heavy footprint but on this issue i come down strongly on the side against amazon. Because when i looked at what literary culture means in the vibrancy and five years down the line that the book is under threat right now agree should down in its words to talk about there. Maybe the Book Business . Put the blockage is under threat. I point this out as well. When i sit down to write a book i need to have somebody sponsoring by a project i independently wealthy i want to take one or two or three years out of my life which is what is required to produce quality work of fiction or nonfiction some of us are superhuman. But i cannot do that unless somebody helps choose subsidize the effort i submit an idea to the publisher who likes the idea or doesnt and fortune of the right now there is at least five different corporations i can sell my work to. Three University Press is. Is somebody likes my idea of a king give me an advance on sales of the future and it is an incredible act of faith in my project. When the bacon gives you money to buy a new house. I enter the relationship that what happens now because of the amazon it is able to exert ever greater power over the publishers so amazon is under pressure from the stockholders for ever greater returns to them. So they say share us show was more revenue. So they cut the deals with the publishers then they are squeezed and they squeeze the author in makes a harder and harder for people to take the financial risk that is necessary to produce a types of books at a festival like this prevent somebody described the price cutting leica chef to be chicken it cuts away and cuts away and tell every piece is stripped off. That is the approach. Amazon is a fantastic company in so many ways it is a miracle to have any book delivered to your phone, a miracle they can get books to you in a day or two when you push a button. But that has created circumstances where it is impossible for anybody to compete and then to become the everything storer but it makes it impossible to compete so if it grows every year we have to except the fact that books will be dominated by one company and depreciate the dangers into our democracy we do something about it. Amazon is not here but they may say that the Book Business is broken and Book Publishers to use the phrase is a bunch of losers. Are they right . Today have a point that we are and a digital marketplace . There is a lot that i dont like about publishers federal like they are slow to adapt. And as corporations to have much more profit seeking but what i do like about the publishers is taken intellectual risk and very good taste to subsidize writers. And the more that we depend of one company the when you have one big company so i think when merges with random house now you have six publishers down at five and then to merge with perseus to become bigger. And as they become bigger and you were i have fewer places i can sell my project. Is up a miracle i can get one to buy my book prettify only sell to one or two then i am dependent on the lives of those publishers for accepting my ideas. And this goes to a the heart of the other argument that the sound very familiar. One of the plane said you made in the book that is critical to this discussion is that the culture is the stage so to see them in full view. So rather than giving us a level Playing Field so in favor of the nervous players my book is a brough look at the landscaped as a filmmaker and touring with an independent rock band with the mythology that the internet would be a leveller but might title is aspirational. Wouldnt it be great if we actually had a peoples platform . But is also slightly sarcastic. With the exception of acadia. Still looking at the old media landscape with the depended journalist to look at the consolidation that has carried over. So what was predicted to mediate the old guard in the competition flourishing but greasy with the digital giants like amazon Book Publishers are verging in then with a hardcover edition there were five big record label said down there are three and they control the overwhelming amount of music. So this consolidation is perpetuated that was not acknowledged with the transformation. You go into the irony that you see in 2014 so with the wonderful communal sound in the free market is like the oxymoron. Faking of amazon as a platform and with the candle platform you could just not take that ebook but in addition to the consolidation that we have entered the retrograde feature. Also though Web Hosting Company just like pinterest and netflix use that as well. And to be involved with content creation. And you will see this with netflix. But now they make original content so it is global and they promote their films and then just hope that personalization algorithms services because youll get that frontpage placement. So there is a paradox we feel we are in charge of dree our media destiny but yet far counterforces that have been not fully acknowledged so i wonder why all the options are not on the table. To see what the officials bases on the web might look like because theres too much emphasis as citizens. [applause] can you make the paint make the point that is not unnatural situation due to be that way. That is why picked those lines that the exchange because you need the change. And i want to ask how booksellers they have had a bone to pick with amazon for some time. Two title your session monsters living is apropos but to be the notion of the monsters of this laptop these are big Massive Companies referring to the concern those that dominate the business some had concerned about the recent consolidation with random house. But think about this. That combined global empire to 5 of the sales. If you take the big five publishers there barely in in double digits. This is a real example that size really matters. It is massive and influences everything about the Book Business so as he watched what happened this summer frankly it is something that jeff said it cannot find of quoting mr. Bezos that they started off selling books because you consumers buy a lot of other stuff. And what the Book Business has become is a loss leader to sell flat screen televisions and shoes and diapers and every other commodity. It is perfectly legal in there is nothing illegal about that understand the interest with consumers are interfered with because theyre using this as Collateral Damage to do something else. From the booksellers perspective what exactly is amazon doing that you would not . But the first things were doing it for is attempting to eliminate any other person in the middle of that transaction. It is indispensable in this process. They want to drive prices down there is a day consumer that i know but there is no example over time, that concentration of power leads to the benefit of consumers. Anything size is important if it is critical to create a diverse culture and is available to americans to around the world with a diverse Publishing Community to have all that power. Where you like to see the government looked into this . But with a pricefixing case there in the Publishing Business would they get deeper . I thought the department of justice case against publishers was the most onesided of the government looking at one half of the equation. A spent a lot of money investigating publishers. Those to have them take a look at their practices. And you would agree that this would be worthwhile exercise . This is the ball game and they are central to the production and ideas that is essential to an educated citizenry and robots robust democracy. So yazov. So quibbling of leftofcenter but regardless should be a political issue . It is. Knowing there is a Democratic Administration in power that has no interest to investigate amazon. What is the alternative . That readers start to care about what will happen into the future of the books that they read. Then the future of the industry is inevitable. As consumers it is not incumbent for them to make the choices that government should be making for them. That the most antiamazon people have used amazon. Is a good website and provides services so the problem is one. Is the political issue. Where should the leadership come from . But the leadership should come from where . It is that consumers responsibility every turn. And that politics ambrose and in washington in d. C. And all the other great bookstores because it is central to our sense of community. But readers should be asking questions of their politicians. And so to care about the consumers as citizens to try to enlist those politicians to take up the cause. It is not the esoteric argument but whether or not books continue to get published in the united states. And the fact is anybody who reads or likes to read has a stake as a reader you could be passive but i would suggest everyone of us that cares about the of literary culture cares about the culture has the state in the conversation. And you would say yes they are . Yes. There are reasons but labor is different with the antiin his term labor argument to be made with those in the warehouses there is an excellent article will leave the of the retirees are recruited by amazon to work a 11 an hour because they dont have other options. But then when publishers continue that behavior of consolidation and these are problems that was read about. And with the internet came along with the advertising it was more of what they were already doing. There is a way that the pressures so the response needs to be to support independent publishers doing a different type of business is your view to be composite when it comes to innovation they outsource that and left it to amazon. That is true. I think i just disagree of little bit and it is the government has a role but the questions our constitutional manner regulatory. That the antitrust processes the not the weapon of choice. We have a very bad case of stockholm syndrome. Because then you identify of what barnes noble was in coaching but the question that were really addressing is how do we guarantee a robust future . These are questions i would like to take the step in a broader government or even a cultural way that one should bring the lawyers in the rue the public conversation stops. We are having that conversation right now. Said to ask about the business and how it is different one thing is there is the perception with the independent bookstores are dying like the leaves of the trees but in fact there has been a resurgence recently. What about that good message with the marketplace . Extraordinarily good news we were actually doing well but there are a network literally of thousands of bookstores providing an extraordinarily disposable function in their communities everywhere across united states. The good news is theyre doing better today than they were a decade ago. Owning and operating a small independent Retail Business of any kind is the challenge. But what is clear there are millions of not tens of millions who value going to act with the people who operate that in the way to revolutionize our business i trust one week from yesterday it is Small Business saturday that American Express a few years ago there will up did you know last year across the network Something Like 5. 7 billion was spent with independent business is that day . Theyre reacting to the value why it is the one to support locally owned businesses. So we are hanging on. So to be smart entreprenuers to adapt including ways to take advantage of technology to sell a product of line through social media. We have to do those things. To have writers and artists to have a focus on the broader picture is the way you used the peasants kingdom which provide artists and musicians in the preDigital World has gone away that has contributed as a collective for the media environment. Is the way to change the nature of the web to improve that situation. I dont want to deny all of the amazing opportunities but the architecture of the internet the communication in channel is remarkable but we need to look ahead at the forces that are shaping it and start actively tried to protect the things about the communications platform. So with that Net Neutrality debate that is fundamental it is it being able to access the internet that is foundational. Instead of creating the opportunity but we have the fact with the increasing divide between regular people to communicate online and of blockbuster global phenomenon so in the Publishing Industry with a celebrity memoirs and so i would like to see ways to bolster that and with the independent bookstores to enable people to discover far range of titles that they would seem to have everything but actually brick and mortar have far more heterogeneous purchasing patterns for consumers to protect the institutions the amazon is very critical the fact that some books do not pay their own ways of the big books the profits for those paid for a bunch with those titles that dont make many. That is of good model it is not to be critical of but so those our publishing nonfiction or poetry that is a model they want to keep the not get rid of that everything pays its own way. And Investigative Journalism and cultural criticism always had a hard time to pay their own way. Stomach as they consider consumer of literary boundaries to look at what people were paid in 1934 the new yorker article that could calculate what 1,930 hour into present value but people were paid a lot more then a couple with that they tend to live in metropolitan areas. And then where realestate prices skyrocket and we have the double whammy the way the industry has changed. So as an editor i increasingly relied on nonprofits to subsidize writers to take trips to warm places just that type of a journalism but i am extremely concerned that writers are turning into service and that is what was called decent poverty. And to make the choice to write a book that was experimental you could still send your kids to decent Public Schools and it just isnt possible any more. And it has a lot to do it makes me sad. Is back to the fundamental point look at the New York Times bestseller list this morning there are two new books in we will wake up in five years and say what the hell just happened . That we consume a processed food for summiteers we thought it tasted pretty good and is convenient then we said we are fat and dying of Heart Disease it is happening right now with cultures. [applause] but then we chose to make choices regardless. But what i would suggest it is consumers made choices and we have transformed a the marketplace. That was the culture, i mean look there were also problems with that elite, lots of problems with that elite but there was still some responsibility that the people who ran publishing and ran journalism felt that i still think publishing has a sense of that responsibility. Publishing for all its problems publishes an extraordinary amount of literary fiction that may or may not provide massive Profit Margins. It still publishes an extraordinary amount of Investigative Journalism that may or may not produce Profit Margins so as astra says we will forgive them for publishing whatever kardashian book or directive they want to publish if it subsidizes the good stuff. Andrew albanese i wonder if you have any sense that they feel that same responsibility or have they turned to the profit motive the way that he was condemning them for . I think its true that publishers publish a lot of good in the model of using the kardashian books to fund is a model they need to defend and they need to defend in a better way i mean but at the same time and technology we are on the cusp of the golden age for independent literature. You can good it get a book to market more cheaply but we need to discuss Broader Solutions i think to how we fund artists, how we fund things that matter to us our institutions or bookstores or libraries. Its a Big Conversation made to be having. Right now being an author is a lot like the situation i think in the country right now. If you are the. 1 you are doing fine. Everyone else not so much and if you are in the middle you are screwed. I think we need to address how we prop up the middle here. And oren teicher how do we do that . Is a business practice or technology or both . Is important to point out that there are countries in the world that do figure out how to support cultural institutions. In a lot of western europe in fact government policy allows for a far more competitive cultural business and specifically in the Book Business. There are different kinds of agreements in other countries that absolutely stabilize the business and promote the culture so i agree andrew that it doesnt only have to be Public Policy but it forces antitrust laws. I think thats a piece of it because i dont think we could have blinders on as to pretend that doesnt exist but i think there are lots of other very positive things that the government can do to create a level Playing Field with regard to the way businesses operate. In our business we have been fighting for a decade the absurdity that amazon is being subsidized in many states across the country by not having to collect sales tax because they have cut some deal with some state legislature to say we will put your warehouse there but we dont have to collect sales tax. Well you level the Playing Field and if consumers are buying their product why couldnt my why should government be subsidizing one group of businesses over another . I think there are a lot of very constructive things that can be done shy of going to court and spending your life with a bunch of lawyers to help level the Playing Field with regard to the way the Book Business operates. Frank foer and then astra. Somebody who lives in the world of journalism i have watched how expectations theres a set of expectations we have as consumers about what we pay for what journalism which is expected to be free which is just impossible. You get what you pay for. When you dont pay anything for the journalism that you read you get gossip pandering to mass audiences and thats no good. So as consumers we have to fight our better selves. We have to fight or worse else on that one and try and pony up what is called pony up. And i think when you look at books thats what scares me that amazon where this is pushing. The possibility that we devalue books and the value books by the actual price that we put on them them, that the dust jacket. Thats a mere flexibilities guys we have as a society and i do think ultimately as consumers this is something we do have to fight that selfinterested impulse. Astra great place to land before we go to audience which is about values and i believe its your point that a real valid cultural democracy is not something that is a contest for eyeballs. Its something more important. I think that is how weird framing this digital landscape. Everyone could have a hat in the ring and make it succeed and cultural democracy is to support things we dont necessarily like that arent the click bait. On the consumer, the analogy of food thats something i go to at the end of my book and i think the power of the purse is real but i think its a social problem and we cant spend their way into a cultural utopia. On the food issue the real problem is the subsidies the agricultural business gets. That is what is shaping old system. The media landscape is similar. Internet Companies Get many subsidies from the tax issue you raised in the fact so much of the technology was financed by the state and the corporate sector reached their ward so we need to look at the subsidies go to the private sector and try to put some Public Interest conditions on them is not taking back some of the proceeds and investing them in ways that enhance our culture. I see we have aligned for questions so we are going to turn to our audience to continue the discussion. What we wanted to do so if you have a question for a particular member of the panel let us know who its for. My name is scale and i dont really have a question for any particular person. We have been talking a lot about amazon and im a very big supporter of the arts in the authors dancers and painters etc. But when our local bookstores are being taken away from us. I live down in that aventura area. Have to drive 45 minutes to an hour to go to a bookstore to even just browse to see what kind of the book i want. How can i go ahead and support the authors in a different publishers when i dont have that ability given to me . There is no place for me to go except for amazon. Penguin and some of the other publishers that you guys were talking about that are emerging together i would size under the assumption that i could get any book that i wanted from whatever publisher if i went to amazon since i didnt have a bookstore to be able to go to. So how can i continue to support the local without having to go to the giant . The question is there a workaround . Do you go to books. Com . Do you know that books books can sell you exactly the same books that amazon can . Our business isnt based on what we do on line been a stretch of imagination but the fact is there cant be a bookstore in every community in the country. They are more of us today than there were a decade ago but the fact is that yes there are communities that are underserved. We are trying to address that but you can shop on line at any bookstore and have access. Most everybody here in miami knows books books but lets face it if you are not in miami and you are in a smaller area in florida or you are in texas and some other place in the country that doesnt have a books books and they are out of borders and there are no more barnes and nobles around. There was was a kids book store that used to be an aperture that was within walking distance that i used to go to with my children. They are in college now. They havent been there in 15 years. If you dont know of a books books thats in your community that you are can go on line, if you dont know if publisher of a favorite author that you know that is being published by that publisher can you go to that publisher on line and buy a book from the publisher directly . Im ignorant in that regard, i will admit that. If you go to book web. Org to look for a local seller. I want to go the next person in line. You started up a panel talking about how it ebooks have changed the landscape and i definitely agree thats true. How do you answer the argument that amazon can actually be a wonderful thing for nail and smaller authors who can now selfpublish and get a much higher percentage of royalties than any of the publishers would ever give them . As to amazon comments taken up by a lot of independent publishers and authors. Andrew albanese i think you recognize the point that Andrew Amazonas lot done a lot of good for authors and publishers. I think thats absolutely true. That is the amazon argument. My problem with amazon as you can publish a book through amazon and use their selfpublishing platforms but if you are a library its difficult to buy those books. Once you buy them on kindle you cant easily transfer them anywhere else. But i would agree entirely and author has a book that wants to reach and not in skin do sort more easily than ever before in history and amazonas meant a part of that. Our next question please. Hi my name is shock. I want to reiterate a few comments in a question. I want to reiterate what the first commenter said were the question that she asked. Really to get to the point the hardest that rational Choice Theory doesnt really work. There was an analogy that was about food and when you look at poor black and latino communities we dont have access to food in certain places so thats another example for this rational theory doesnt work. You dont have a books books is easy to dismiss. To dismiss preachers go to books books. Com or just go here but the heart of that is that there are choices for people out there right now. The other thing is, the question is while there was some stuff thrown around about culture and also the word consumer was thrown out like 9 million times and for us to change these problems we have to change the culture. What is it going to take for us to change the culture of calling us consumers quicklook comes to my mind when you see the word consumer you are at the trough eating with dozens of onetwo and in what ways they are waste they are laying upon the land so we are citizens of this country. I would love for us to be able to look at us as that kind of individual. [applause] i think in your book you consider that there can be alternatives and isnt that movie in the direction you are speaking about. I felt like there was a lot of faith in the idea that the technology was going to make this transformation for us and to bring about a more participatory culture and stressed the technology, but it run its course and the things we dont like about the system are going to be broken up. I think what we are seeing is how much power the marketplace the context the economic context has over technology and how it evolves. I feel like thats the deeper level we need to be addressing. Its not surprising to me in a world of increasing sickening inequality that what we are seeing is the internet amplifying the advantage of preexisting winners and broadening the gulf to join the haves and the havenots on the level of money and attention. You know in my book i say we actually need to challenge the faith in technology is something that can transform our social world. We need to look at the way shaped like by these economic forces. That was my goal with the book. As far as the consumer thing yeah is very pervasive in our culture and one of the counter arguments to the book has been convenience. Amazon is convenient and conveniences of Consumer Value and i think we need to push back on that is something that underpins a lot of our choices and activities. And frank foer i will let you get the last word in on that. We have certain expectations about the stuff that we get into shape by the world we live in and its marketplace. We expect we should get everything as cheaply as possible and efficiently as possible and to some extent those are tenets of capitalism but they havent always been tenets of american political economy. Thereve been moments in our past and are not so distant past where we have said okay its not necessarily the most important thing to get things as cheaply as possible. Sometimes in order to create a truly healthy marketplace we are going to have to pay more as consumers and maybe it