Transcripts For CSPAN2 Ronnie Greene On Shots On The Bridge 20150920

He kept scouring the bridge from one end to the other and then began walking down a grassy area under the danziger bridge. Nothing. It passed by another officer. Good thing or not looking for a lawyer, the cop told her to go back into the bus and drove away from the bridge trying to put the puzzle out of his mind. It wasnt his investigation. It was natural to question issues. He returned to other duties. I didnt ask anybody anything. I didnt want to do. Ask me questions and i will tell you know lies. But to some other witnesses started to come to the scene. One of them was he happened to be the morning taking pictures of the hotel for insurance purposes. Is troubleshoot had two cameras. One in his hands and one in his pocket. When he turned out with a camera in his hands a Police Officer russia, took the camera and stomped it on the ground. Three hours later, after the gunfire had quelled, the troubleshooter walked back outside. Ronald madisons body remained on the pavement. No officers were around. The lifeless figure left unguarded. He began taking pictures. He snapped photos of the 40 yearold line before him into showcases around the body. The photographs and all the other evidence was important because the police that morning instantly launch launched into a cover. Before all the victims were reeled to the emergency room. The police on the bridge talked about planting a gun. In the next coming days, weeks and months, the police created a fiction. They charged madison with attempted murder so we tried to shoot the officers first they planted a gun that one of the sergeants retrieved from his garage. They called it a handy sandwich. They just truly created a fiction out of whole cloth. One day one of the supervisors when he was writing the report justified the shooting said give me in a. So litigious death was listed as a witness who swore that the medicine brothers were armed, who swore that the of the families were armed. It was a fiction. The police went to Great Lengths to keep this picture in place. The police store the beginning of march in black and what was more like an airbrusheairbrushe d hollywood screenplay been an official recounting of the devastating morning. Filled with jolts of creativity, invented witness and evidence, phony names and fabricated facts. Like a screenplay, the Police Reports would up the light of supervisors who send back comments, wrote through passages. At times like the director and stars hovering over the film directors final cut, the whole nopd Christopher Guith over a computer criminal looking to strike just the right key. The police were unquestioned heroes standing tall. The department had no hunger for an independent review. What it wanted more than anything was to keep the massacre out of the public view and to cast the authors of the bridge as Public Servants doing their job after katrina. Took a fair amount of sweat and some bickering to strike the right tone. Let me get off for just one second, side do. One the things in researching the mullets on the bridge, the residents and the officers come in researching the history of civil rights cases in new orleans, past, present and future, i felt i could never stop learning. So much to learn about this department, so much to absorb about katrina. Their work so many horrors you couldnt keep track. As i mentioned, the eight family members on the bridge that morning. One group of six and one group of two. In my mind i had a good sense of where the seventh of what happened to seven of the victims. Ronald was killed. His brother was arrested and then the other families, susan had her arms shot off. Her daughter lay atop her to protect her and had bullets shoot into her and had to get lifesaving surgery. Their nephew was left for dead. Of paramedics until work on them. Jose whispered dont give up on me. They saved his life. Susans husband had been shot in the head. Been there was the eighth person on the bridge. In researching this he had met a bystander that they look after. I lost track of them. One thing i will add about leonard is he was not hit that day. Leonard when the police stormed out of the budget truck and start shooting he ran down the embankment of the small bridge. And officer linda the truck and fired two shots at his back and his. And missed. For nearly two weeks susan had no idea what her son little bit was and she woke up jolted by were. After johnson look out for the boy that sunday morning, little leonard met a woman who was driving people out of new orleans and buses. The woman heard a story and took him to her home in baton rouge for a week and a fiction the boyfriend cared for him and put a notice on the internet about a missing child. In texas is awful saw the notice and came to get him. Jerome drove leonard directly to the hospital. His mom was in a wheelchair, her right arm chopped off. This is was a hospital bed unable to walk. Surrounded by loss, the teenager was suddenly engulfed by guilt. Why wasnt he shot . Looking towards his cousin who started trying. Im sorry, i shouldve been shot. It is right i got off whatever else has to go through all this pain and is walking around, im fine. I dont have to worry about injuries. It just isnt right. Jose looked at his cousin and gave him a thumbs up. None of us deserved this. For me, i really focus on that moment very late in my research but it showed me there were so many horrors in so much trouble that it was almost hard to keep track. That moment that stays with me because a 14 yearold boys sing i shouldve been shot, too. Such a profound moment. None of us deserved this is what jose was telling me. Whats interesting about this case is despite the horse i described it took these residents, these families having to push for justice. It was a year after the shooting the families filed a lawsuit that led to a different narrative. Initially sometime after that the local da fired filed charges against some of the Police Officers. The officers were paraded as he rose. The case had been twisted so much so that the medicine, in particular led by the brother who is a dentist didnt trust the local da to right the wrong. While there was a case pending, the das case was pending in the madison family and others pressed for the federal department of justice to coming. They didnt trust the local agency to do the right. They were right. A couple years after the case, charges were filed a judge dismissed the charges. Then the department of justice came in led by the Civil Rights Division here in washington, a very aggressive federal prosecutor worked with a rookie fbi agent who started his great as a mechanical engineer, decided to go into the fbi. They teamed up with agents and prosecutors down in new orleans and they took a much deeper review of the events on the bridge. They knocked on doors that mary bonauto before. All the witnesses that may have seen something a morning were never questioned by the nopd. They were now question. The doj shut down the danziger bridge four years after these shootings who search for evidence. It sent a message that theyre looking. They started knocking on doors on the officers and confronting supervisors with evidence that you guys were crafting a fiction. After many years a couple of supervisors played led to guilty. They crossed the line. I want to read a short passage. Remember when the bus, when the budget us was racing to the bridge a guy who was driving, with his own personal ak47 went out the window and fired warning shots. He scattered the families. His name is michael hunter. Hundred have been wrestling with demons from the morning of september 2005. After officers were first charged in state court he was assigned desk duty doing paperwork while the criminal case course through the court system. Another officer worked alongside him. Each officer would come by the office shaking hands and dripping into the da for prosecuting police were doing their job. One day hunter had enough. His fellow officers celebrated the Police Actions that were come unto rose from his desk and stormed to the bathroom. Whats wrong . Standing inside the mens room, hunter turned to the officer is nothing cool about being indicted. We are not heroes. Michael hunter never wanted to climb the Police Letter to stardom. He wanted to be a cop, nothing more. He said his four children out of town. His rating was probably ruined by salt water. A cell phone stuck in his pocket as he patrolled the streets was ruined. Each day he headed up for duty heavily armed. When the ones who a call came hes the one who raised to the drivers seat. He was not an opportunist got boring ass kicker said his lawyer. Now he face those wrenching choice of his life. From the started, along with the cover. He looked himself in the mirror and admitted he did not have the courage to tell the truth. With fbi agents knocking on his door and word spreading supervisors had become cooperative, everything changed. It was just a matter of time. In some ways a huge asterisk, was just matter of time. Ultimately, the doj case led to a successful prosecution led to the very story i first read in august of 2011. In that in some ways this is the only moment where the victim families had some sense of release ashman relief. As the families come, they were greetegreeted by supporters cany throngs of them in tears flow down from j. J. Mom. Plans who testified read a note from a fedex piece of paper. Talked about the horrors he had went through in the relief he finally felt. It really was a relief. It was a temporary relief because a couple years later the judge overseeing the case vacated the jury verdict in directed a neutral on issues that have nothing to do with events of september 4, 2005, nothing to do with the. He we are 10 years later, its been 10 years, and for the victims, the family so lost a son and brother, who lost an arm, who suffered life to seeking injuries and were completely innocent, completely unharmed, the justice remains unresolved for the. As i was looking into the book in 2011 so me cases of note start develop across the country over 2014 and 2015. I ache and stopped in my tracks also the pictures of walter scott tumbling to the ground in north charleston, south carolina. The freddie gray case in baltimore. Eric garner case in staten island. All those cases were profound pd tragedies. Silly of us to with most innocuous moment. Someone being pulled over for not having attacks in the car and ultimate someone dies. Those are painful cases but in thinking about the danziger case i cant think of another case that was as severe a case of a civil rights abuse when you look about the trauma in the budget a top that small bridge and then you look at the extent of the coverup that was put in place. Its a significant case study and i think it has some lessons about them quite a talk by turning to in the. Im going to read this one last short passage and the than happo take any questions you guys ha have. Him as those events but if you think about it too, sounded on the danziger bridge on september 4, 25 following a police distress call that nothing to do with these eight residents. Each of them black and unharmed. 10 years later justice for these families remained an open question. Sobering and telling. I cant retrieve my mind to it inside marc morial the former new orleans mayor and current President National urban league shared as in to begin in the summer 2014. In order to depict a Police Officer detected divert the Police Officer did not to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt he said. Got to convict him beyond all doubt. I also recall the words of edwin sure to the lord for the bartholomew family. How much justice to expect when you been shot at by a Police Officer . In the lead in the families of the victims continue to pray. Sharon johnson wakes up each morning to home without her son, the 17th of killed. Its never going to go away she told me recently. I love him to death. About griffey walked on. I wonder what he would be. I wonder what is. My whole life is spent wondering. Think you. [applause] if you have a question and make your way to the mic dont be shy. Good evening. Thank you for your presentation i had occasion to confront a Police Officer when i was a cab driver, and i called him a break in i was asked to pick somebody up and they said wait for the police to arrive. Caps are kind easy to see. They are yellow and black lights all over them. I was he showed up, emulate jumped out with a shotgun and leveled it at me. And i just looked at him like he was crazy and he finally agreed with me i guess, and he put it down. But theres some mentality there that im very concerned about and it seems to keep popping up in a what if you into that at all . One thing i want to make clear about this is what the officers did on the bridge that was completely wrong in every possible way. They shot first, in asking questions. At the end of the coverup, Good Chemistry i tried to put the shooting in context of what theyre going to come with the department was going through. They are fellow officer had been shot in the head. There was a complete leadership vacuum. I talked with former officer went back to search for bodies 10 days afterwards and he said 10 days and no one was in charge. The fact of the officers could go round, kerry their own ak47 to patrol the streets speaks to the greatest of the times. I tried to understand the. I think theres no doubt it was real palpable fear. The officers thought they were going into really a chaotic terrible situation but they work. These are good families and again ultimately they shot first, did ask questions and they covered a. I thought it was important to put in context of the times. Times. Im curious about why the Police Arrived guns blazing at this situation. Who called them . What that person or persons think was happening . Why did the police get this situation so wrong and react in such a totally unnecessarily violently . Thats a good question. This morning, and theres so many threats of this stupidity by books to be honest with you. This morning of the officers were on the itunes which was paralleled to the danziger bridge, they were telling dutchman towing boat en route to risking people get as they come down theres a man dressed in a shares Office Outfit who says theyre shooting at me, they are shooting at me. And when the lead officer was in this car him her name is jennifer, she heard a digital a couple of guys with guns divide so she called in. The situation was so chaotic. She called them once a rate which means officer under distress. She never said an officer down, officer shot. But at the banquet hall where the officers were state for command post they all assumed that the they all assumed i think is an officer down. Just a couple days earlier when her brother was shot in the head. They raced out to the bridge. The irony in this come to work there was some people in the area earlier that they with the guns but the guy who fly dont officer, he wasnt an officer at all. He was a convic convicted healts dressed like a sheriffs deputy. Thank you very much. Youre welcome. In listening to the story i think about the coverup that took place, and that the story that they weaved to cover up, what they had done was based on the idea that they were shot at first, that they were under attack with something of that nature. And i think in considering the people, its almost cliche, Police Officers have a dangerous job. Everybody except of that is true, but it seems to me that the police dont accept it as true. Because if you know what youre doing a dangerous job, you accept the danger in doing it. If youre a bike messenger java dangerous job, weaving through traffic but you cant pull out a gun as if someone creates out into the intersection and you feel like you are threatened and thereby did you. You either have to get it or get out of the way to you except the dangerous part of your job. In this instance, instances such as these, Police Officers are able to get away with these murders because they feel threatened. They were anxious. Thethey were nervous. They thought someone had a gun. They thought it looked like a gun so they can just shoot first and ask questions later. And even in this instance. If someone did have a gun on the bridge, if there was something going on, it wouldv would haven justified for them to going to maniacal shooting, shooting out of the car or whatever, shooting peoples arms off, shooting people in the back even when theyre scattering you just continue to shoot, shoot, shoot, and then reload and shoot some more. Thats my issue is likely to kind of response to this idea of giving them a pass just because there is danger or there might be danger. I dont think anyone should give the officers a pass on what happened that morning. When offices were biding their coverup, creating a fiction come even have any sense at all anyone was on their shoulders, that the mayor, the bosses would make sure that everything right. They were operating in many ways with impunity. What that should the importance at a local level that the mayor, the police chief played. When marc morial was mayor he had appointed an outsider from washington to lead the department it wasnt friends with officer, respected him but he was a disciplinarian and the fbi was embedded in the office. During katrina the mayor had never held office before and there was no sense from the officers at all that the police chief would tell them what youre doing was wrong. Gotcha debate the significance of the importance and significance of having strong leadership that tells these authors that you cant get away with writing the sanctions when they were human beings at the other end of this. I think this is a very important issue, and remains extremely important. Before i came to the United States from the caribbean. I stated in the netherlands, you know, and i was confronted with this when i was a student usc for some of the became known that i was a lawyer, studied law and people would bring me from lots, stuff like that to talk about police violence. Honestly, i mean, im not [inaudible] the stories i heard were fabric testing what i would like to maybe do a bit more here is to place the whole story in a larger context. Beginning in 2005, this outcome from what we have here [inaudible] if these policemen had problems but you have a way of policing in the south, and ive been to new orleans, based on a long, long history and also basically what happened in new orleans was a failed state, right . New orleans became a failed state, a failed locality. So we have all of this complexity of a history of basically extreme racist policing going back to slavery and going back to setting up the Police Department and the role the Police Department have to put a large extent, right . Protect majority to minority people. Menu fundamental create a very, very volatile situation that any type of uncertainty and especially [inaudible] as those made want to talk about a lopid and all the several levels. When i say i stopped learning, theres so much to learn about this comp westward looking into the new Orleans Police federal been troubling cases going back decades. Officers filing civil rights abrasive to what was striking for me was even after the events on the bridge and after katrina the Department Justice Civil Rights Division data report a look at incidents after this and it was a striking disparity in the treatment of minority residents in new orleans by the Police Department, such a profound issue that is still being addressed and dealt with today. I tried to put that in larger context in the book. I was wondering, he made reference to recent events in the last year or so, but i havent seen this event of the danziger bridge referenced at all in these reports. Have we already forgotten . Has any but the victims families remember this speak with thats a really good question. As others to point out, in my best guess is, for one, there werent so many horrors after katrina and a lot for proven to be untrue, there were falsehoods about the depth of wha 07 in te superdome but theres so we stories out of between and so true misery, i used to live in south florida can lead to hurricanes but never through katrina, it was profound, that this case initially was one of so many horrors. The other thing is the truth about this case rolled out very slowly. It took a year before the families filed a lawsuit but said theres a different story but the question, who is time to truth . The next case rolled out over two years and then two years later until the doj prodigies. Because it was piecemeal, im not justifying the i think this is one of the more significant cases of civil rights abuse in our lifetimes to be honest with you. But it didnt play out because of those factors. Other questions . Thanks so much for your reading and to bring this issue to our attention once again. I have a very simple question. Im interested in the number of officers you are able to interview and also how you gained their trust on such a difficult issue. That was one of the challenging things in this case can take a after the judge overturned the verdict and take it at the drop of i put in a request for all the officers through their lawyers and their families, they would not talk about this case because the case may come back. I talk to other offices, a former officer, who spent 17 years on the force and who is now a lawyer for the police, to get a sense of the time of katrina also went to the sentencing of these officers were multitudes of Police Officers often spoke but none of them excused the deaths on the bridge but some of the officers said at this crazy chaotic time that could have been me. That was a theme that whatever else read the transcript of the trial, told tons of records on all the officers and others cases. I tried really hard to get at their perspective through that and talk to them was at length as well. I still dont have a hard time understanding the timeline, katrina hits, and then sometime later the shots on the bridge. Could you just explain when does this occur relative to the . Sure. Six days later, the first sunday after katrina. Five or six days later after landfall in new orleans, the first sunday, a beautiful morning and then everyone went out. And then the chronology, every our 10 years later come if you want to spent if katrina what are building still been flooded or choose a people company, wasnt the decision to go, no go a week or your the families had stayed in new orleans, yes, and theyre just trying to survive. Some of them couldnt get back to their homes. Thank you. I think the u. S. Attorney jim legends, was about seem to be a good guy from everything ive read and know about it but could you talk a bit about vacating the verdict came wasnt his his office of . What happened, just to get a real quick overview is that it had been a couple of prosecutors can one who was not involved in this case, stories about police wrongdoing, and couple posters weigh in with anonymous comments. A lawyer in a related case that one of them was a prosecutor in the u. S. Attorneys office. Office. He was winking also make aces and he was ripping the police left and right. The defense for the officers argued, their main argument was they felt that these Anonymous Online comments were part of a Larger Department of justice conspiracy to essentially ended the officers before they went to trial. They thought it prejudiced their clients but it seemed like a real long shot. None of those comments come in fact no jerk ever saw the others nose and it had anything to do with the justice but the judge in this case vacated the ruling arch because of these anonymous comments. At the rescheduled the trial speak with no. That is still being played out. Im wondering if you make any efforts to put katrina in context with the sort of long history of flooding in new orleans and efforts by white authorities to use sort of these dates of emergency in order to perpetuate extralegal violence against blacks, you know, going back to the huge flood is in the early 20th century and i can send as well. Theres been some excellent reporting on that. I look in the flooding to the extent it played out in that time and impact it had on the psyche of it going, residents and officers. But beyond that it wasnt something i look out on those issues sort of front and center. Is there any evidence got anything being done to improve the new orleans Police Department as a result of this . The doj department of justice came out with a really detailed report that look of Police Practices and particle in new orleans and they found systematic breakdowns, and they found that parts of police fire and hundreds of police physical altercations were disproportionate black residents. That led to disintegrate between department of justice and is difficult for all sorts of new protocols and all sorts of new training that was supposed to right the ship. But after the city sunday, the city tried to back out of it for other reasons. A judge confirmed the Consent Decree but it is a work in progress. After the police chief was in for katrina he resigned shortly after the. They went through several police chief the there was a reform line of superintendents who were in charge of about this is because when i was researching the book, on his website to document these cases are a black eye for the department. We have a 65point plan to improve. I tried hard to get him to talk about these things, and coincidentally as i was going to one of my trips to a new orleans, he resigned. Unrelated to inquiry. He resigned and theres a new chief coming in so who knows . I know that theres never really been a steady the ship when issued in new orleans Police Department. Thats funny, she took twothirds of my question, but it points to a larger question that this is certainly not the first Consent Decree that the Justice Department has pursued against numerous departments. You can look at seattle. They are investigating ferguson. Is there a larger story or failing as a result of how many Police Departments are under review for Consent Decrees as a result of this kind of activity speak with that doesnt seem to be a trend. I think cleveland may be going to one as well. That gets back to my point. Earlier i think the importance of the local leadership setting the right tone, nothing to Police Officers we dont like you, respecting Police Officer. The job is demanding. Leadinletting the officers knowu get off course you pay the price. I dont think it was the case during katrina at all with tragic consequences. Strong leadership to make a huge difference so you wouldnt need Consent Decrees. Getting back to the point about the police not being held accountable and operating with impunity. Can you envision a situation in which come it seems to me a really welltrained police force that didnt have a history of systemic injustice towards a huge part of the local population should have been able to respond even to the chaotic circumstances without the kind of behavior that was exhibited in this incident. Thats on the points marc morial said to me. He said with a department, not every officer is corrupt but with a departments corrupt practices, that instinct kicks in to this coverup kicked him. They would talk about planting a gun before the bodies were taken away to the hospital. If you have a department we know it will not be accepted maybe it wont kick in so quickly spent even the act of violence. It was chaotic. As i mentioned the driver of the car leaned out the window and fired warning shots. There were nine offices in baku could see behind but not in front of them so they are hearing these gunshots and it just went crazy from there with real consequences for the residents. Any more questions . Did you go back up to the mic . To follow up on that come in your research be defined in this sort of systemic, the system of corruption did you find other cases you thought might have been covered up . There were other cases including one really striking case right about this time involving a man named henry glover who was shot in the back and then burned, set afire aftr katrina. So there were so many cases to keep track of the. Spent my question is similar to that. I know that there were, the bridges were blocked until after the storm was over the residents who are trying to leave the city couldnt leave the city because there were police and militia guard on other bridges as well get out was wondering if there were any other shootings, or maybe not to that extreme but anything like that. There clearly were other shooting from one involved a Police Officer as a victim and that really intensified the bond between officers, doctor Police Officer a couple weeks ago who said a normal time, please offices and they quickly turned into an us versus them because their job to make training or challenge the giddy with difficult situations all the time. If you put the context of katrina in fact, its quantified many, many times be on the. It was to let us versus them, particularly after on one of thr fellow officers had been shot. That was a culture that can lead to these types of abuses. Shouldnt [inaudible] policies and the mindset of the police where they should be, you would become more, just like when you see people get shot down and then communities might start to bubble up and get people come out and say no, you have to calm down, this is a time for peace. You dont see that come in this instance nobody was coming up and say all right, tensions are high, whenever officers got shot, we dont need you all going all crazy because youre afraid. You got to calm down, remember your training and sticky which are supposed to be on track to calm the situation down. Instead of going out there and making it worse, shooting peoples arms off. Thats exactly what they need to get an into good enough after katrina, no question. Theres no reason for this officers to fire a single shot at these two families. They were unarmed, just trying to survive. That speaks to the culture that goes back decades and also the time. While several officers, five, crossed the blue line and agree to cooperate, they didnt do that voluntarily. Thats one of the things the family said at this incident is just one of the office on the bridge of one of the supervisor then those early days stood up and said this was a shooting gone horribly wrong, we thought these were the people were going after but they were. Lance madison would not have spent 25 days behind bars stay with his back to the wall upgrade some would try to kill the if just one officer had stood up and said the truth that wouldve made a profound difference. I have a question, which is the series that deals with police in these cases the impact this case and, in fact, i think the henry glover case. Does it seem to you to ring true way to describe it . Yeah, i me, im a fan of davids work. He focuses really have on the glover case the he alluded to the danziger case several times but he does a thorough job of capturing the culture of new orleans, the great city that it is, and decorations that also occurs in that city. I think we have sadly come to the end of a w