Coronavirus the postponement of the plan Olympic Games. Were bringing you a conversation about the 1936 olympics held in nazi berlin. There are so many compelling stories from this moment in history ranging from the personal experience of athletes to the german governments campaign to camouflage its discriminatory policies. Please join me in welcoming todays guests. First dr. Damien thomas, who is the sports curator at the National Museum of africanamerican history and culture. Hi, damian, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Im excited to participate in this conversation. Glad to have you on and maybe sometime well actually meet in person instead of just through a box on the screen. Our other guest is my former colleague dr. Daniel green. Danny is president of the Newberry Library in chicago, and he also served as curator of the holocaust museums Current Special exhibition americans and the holocaust danny also conducted research for an earlier exhibition about the 1936 olympics here at our museum in dc. And so were glad to bring him back to share some of that knowledge. Hi danny i had no. Thanks. How are things in chicago . Things are all right. As much as anywhere. We ask you our viewers to please post your questions for our experts in the Comment Section and well get to as many of them live in the course of the show as we are able. Also if you experience any technical glitches during the course of the show, dont worry about it. Dont stress it will be available to view on demand immediately after we conclude. So, how did germany come to host the olympics in 1936 it actually predates the nazi era in 1931. Germany was awarded the right to host the 1936 Olympic Games, which was a very powerful signal it signaled its returned to Good Standing in the International Community following the first world war. In 1933 nazi party leader. Adolf hitler was appointed chancellor and his government quickly transformed germanys fragile democracy into a dictatorship that persecuted and thousands of others based on a racist ideology in which socalled aryans were superior. Leaders and average people here in the United States were becoming increasingly alarmed at germanys turn toward a Violent Police state and this made them wary of competing in the berlin games. So against this backdrop, id like to start with you damien. Can you tell us a little bit about the debate over whether the United States should participate in the berlin games . I think youre absolutely right that this became a serious point of contention americans from the international. Excuse me, the American Olympic committee the amateur Athletic Union debated this and they debated it vigorously even taking trips to germany to to see things for themselves every brundage who was one of the leading figures in American Sports was a Little Cypress supporter of the ideas of american participation in a very close vote the american delegation decided to continue to support the olympics and and to participate and it wasnt just sports organizations who were weighing in this debate. I know jewish organizations the naacp then National Association for the advancement of colored people many people and many groups. Saw the symbolism there, right . Definitely i think i think there was it was widely debated and discussed and the naacp certainly had strong feelings about about this issue. As i understand it, they initially supported a boycott of participating but once it was decided that they would send a delegation they were supportive of the athletes. Is that right . Thats true. So danny, lets put a little more of a personal face on this because this isnt just about abstract boards or organizations making a stand but its about athletes Young Athletes many of whom have trained their entire lives for this this moment. Could you share a couple of these stories, please . Sure absolutely and you know many of them were in college at the time they were they were College Students and many College President s had actually come out and supported a boycott of the games as well in 1935 one athletes story who stands out as a hurdler at named milton green. He was a senior at harvard at the time here. You see milton Green Running the 110 meter high hurdles and he had times in the race that would have qualified him for the olympics and along with a harvard teammate another jewish athlete named Norman Connors green and cant hear you. See green and connors. They meet with greens family rabbi a man named harry levy. And at Temple Israel in boston and the rabbi talks to these two young men and says, you know, it would send a real strong message about fair play and about standing up to discrimination if you boycott the games and so milton green and Norman Connors do boycott the games. Theyre two of the only american athletes who decide that they that theyre gonna boycott the games at the time and its its thats a big ask of a Young College athlete whos been training for something for their whole lives right to say im going to sit this one out and you have to think about in 1936. What did americans know about what was going on in nazi germany green and connors certainly knew that there was persecution of and discrimination against , but of course they lived in a society in the United States with discrimination against , and of course discrimination against africanamerican as well in in jim crow america. So they they make the courageous decision to to stand up and boycott the games. And despite the intensity of that personal sacrifice and for sure the really wrenching disappointment. They must have felt they didnt they didnt talk publicly about this decision. Did they it was really just kind of a personal thing. Thats right. Thats right. I know they dont they dont speak out about the games once they decide not to not to participate. I want to wish a good morning or a good afternoon depending on where you are to visitors to sorry viewers who are watching i use museums speak all the time visitors someday. We will have visitors in our buildings again, but to viewers who are watching from around the world. Thank you for joining us from greensboro, north carolina. Good morning to you in new jersey in boynton beach, florida, harrisburg, pennsylvania, San Francisco and internationally. Were glad to have you with us watching from sao paulo brazil cairo egypt. Good morning to you in el salvador, peru and in stockholm in sweden. Again, ill ask you to please post your questions in the comments section. So that damian and danny can answer them. So damian dannys given us a sense of how it played out for a couple of College Students who could relate on a very personal level as. How did africanamerican athletes grapple with the question of whether to compete or boycott . Was a difficult question because for africanamericans the olympics and sports had been a primary vehicle through which africanamerican said sought to fight against Racial Discrimination by by embodying the ideas of the amateur athlete they saw themselves as challenging notions race and racial oppression. Some of the more also concerned about whether they would face discrimination in germany, and so they they had legitimate concerns and worries, but ultimately many of them saw this as an opportunity to compete at the highest levels of the sport and then to use their success as a way to speak to africanamericans ability because at the time in america, there was the notion that intellectual capacity and athletic ability when hand in hand and it was sort of epitomized in the phrase healthy mind healthy body and so africanamericans use sports to say look at what we can do when were giving a chance to compete on equal terms and so for africanamericans theyre sporting success had much wider meaning and because of the oppression that that they faced in the United States they saw this as their their me to go represent the best of america the best black america at the Olympic Games. And to recognize the experience of black americans was not the same as of other americans. I mean, im acutely aware waking up this morning seeing the news from kenosha. This is not a topic or a struggle that is entirely in the past and thinking about that these athletes in 1935 36 are experiencing pervasive and even legalized discrimination at home and yet theyre going to go and represent represent their country. I also wanted to ask you damien had africanamerican athletes represented the us at games in the past or was this something new . Africanamericans had been involved in the Olympic Games since the the beginning of the modern olympics the first africanamerican to win a medal was at the 1904 Olympic Games. And so there had been a long history of africanamericans being involved. But 1936 was was special because this was a year where we had a Critical Mass where there were 18 africanamerican who who competed in the game. So this was a a watershed moment in many ways. Right an extremely visible in a way that had not been before. And in fact in the end 49 nations the largest contingent ever sent teams to berlin, which the nazis were thrilled about it really legitimized their place not only in the eyes of the world but also for domestic consumption to their population at home to say look we are respected. We are included. So danny in that vein the germans knew that the world was watching. How did they prepare for the International Attention at the olympics would bring to their to their city into their nation . The germans had a chance to show off during the games in in 1936. Its also its a return for germany back into the community of nations after world war i as well, right, which is only, you know, not even 20 years in the rear view mirror in 1936 one of the things that germany does to prepare for the games as they hide overt science of discrimination. So there had been antijewish signs posted publicly persecution of publicly. All those signs are removed from berlin for two weeks in august in 1936. There are roma living in the in the streets in berlin who are rounded up by nazi germany and removed to a concentration camp outside of berlin, so that visitors dont see over sign signs of discrimination against aroma or others, and then theres just such a great deal of pageantry at the games. I think were gonna see some video of that now, you see nazi flags everywhere here hanging on the Brandenburg Gate nazi flags the the germans. In state the torch relay run that we know so well, so this torch relay run begins in athens and ends in berlin. So what are the germans communicating there that they are the literal inheritors of greek civilization right in germany is the new is the new grease the center of civilization here you see hitler walking into the stadium at the beginning of the games in august of 1936. So this the germans bring a lot of pomp and a lot of pageantry to the games and a lot of what they bring is still with us today when we when we watch the Olympic Games every every fourth year, but they communicate to the world that they are back in the community of nations that they are one of the most advanced nations and they cast doubt even some can journalists and other International Journalists who go over there report that they dont see signs of overt discrimination, even though we had been hearing about that for three years that the nazis had been in power already. So this sanitized version of nazi germany, it actually dupes a lot of people or at least its given a spotlight. I think we had one more image. I just want to mention and its something that ive studied and written about the torch, you know, its not just theatrical. It also adds a kind of false evidence to the idea that the aryan myth that they are some kind of ancient people rooted in an older culture. This is a way of amplifying that quite quite vividly and in person thats right and to see the nazi flags on that brandenburg gave photo the nazi flags the next to the olympic flags. Stand for fair play and internationalism, and of course, thats not at all what naziism stands for but theyre theyre able to to mesh those ideals in august or at least to to dupe visitors as weve said so damian the symbolism of these games and its particularly fraught was also quite quite strong and vivid for africanamerican. We havent editorial cartoon that id like us to take a look at and if you could please unpack it for our viewers who may not understand all the symbols in it. What are we looking at here . This was an editorial cartoon, which was featured in the pittsburgh courier, which was the leading africanamerican newspaper at the time an incredibly why circulation it was said that for every paper that they sold seven people ready and so they were able to to sort of share this message this idea of africanamericans the 18 africanamerican who participate in the games sort of representing america represent an american ideals and being champions not just american athletic us and success but also representing africanamericans as leading citizens in in the us certainly the embodiment of these amateur ideals of of gentlemanly and lady like ability. So these this group of 18 known as the black eagles and their names are listed here on these banners or placards that theyre holding to tell us a couple of stories of them. Who were they whered they come from . And how did they perform in berlin . Certainly the most famous of this group is is just the owens jesse owens who won four medals became one of the most recognizable and important africanamerican symbols of success and accomplishment this image that we see of jesse owens right now. Its really important because we have memorialized this moment in the National Museum and we have a statue of jesse owens that that is drawn from this particular image because it really does speak to to africanamericans athletic ability, but it also speaks to to the larger lessons that we learned through sports of of hard work discipline persevering through adversity. And so we wanted to make sure that we were honoring what physical accomplishment man in the africanamerican struggle for greater greater rights and freedoms. And certainly there is John Woodruff who is from the university of pittsburgh and a middle distance runner. Who essentially came out of nowhere to win to win gold in the 800 meter race, he would also go on to be a Tuskegee Airmen. Which means he was a Fighter Pilot for the us military doing world war ii and and thats really important because at the time being a Fighter Pilot was one of the most prestigious jobs that you could have and as africanamericans tried to tie their their war service to to the fight against racism in the United States people like John Woodruff who won the olympic field also was a symbol of black black american achievement also was a symbol doing the war giving his his ability to to occupy this very prestigious and and demanding job as a as a Tuskegee Airmen. And less people look back and think that they were just part of the general fight. I want to remind our viewers also that the United States military was still segregated at the time so part of why you have a unit in fact the reason that you have a unit like the Tuskegee Airmen is because africanamerican pilots were not allowed to integrate into other other units. So how did athletes attract runner like owens or a middle distance runner like woodruff . How do they perform once they reach the arena in berlin . They succeeded beyond beyond measure and were essential to the the success of the us team. Yeah, we see here. Jesse owens here. He actually won four gold medals became one of the most celebrated athletes at the olympics and here he is with the olympic laurel on his head in his team vest showing off his medals woodruff also took a gold medal in the 800meter race, and i just you know, i am really struck by the also the the climb and how unlikely and how many odds these Young Athletes and they were very young had to overcome owens was the youngest of 10 children of a sharecropper farmer in povertent farmer. John woodruff was the grandson of enslaved people and the first in his family to finish high school and really it was a college that brought them, you know to sports. Am i right damian . I think woodruff was only 21 right when he competed at the games. He was he was 21. It was a College College student just like jesse owens was also a College Student as a student at at ohio state and its also important to remember that that they were competing in the north which provided africanamericans with more opportunities to to compete at the highest levels of amateur sports. And so certainly these are our two men who came from Humble Beginnings to become important symbols of of america and in africanamerican ambition and success. And theyre mentioned. Go ahead danny. I mean their stars at their own schools, but they also they face segregation at those schools also, right . And so i mean these these young men and and women who compete also just reflect i think in powerful ways about what it meant to go over to germany wearing a uniform that said usa when they dont have anywhere near full equality in the usa at the time. They they were very aware of that contrast right in the theres a hope for promise of equality. But but the athletes were i think many of the athletes right damian really were aware of that of that contrast between the promise and the and the reality. Id like to ask people again to please post your questions. Were also going to be sharing some links if youd like to explore more about the state of the United States during this time and also about the olympics one question that comes up a lot damian and that id like you to address and kind of put it to rest. Is it true that hitlers snub jesse owens and refused to shake his hand. Is that a myth or is it real . Its yes and no it is certainly true that that hitler did not shake jesse owens hand what had happened was that . During the first day of competition hitler had had went down and greeted and shook the hands of of german athletes who won medals the international Olympic Committee went to him and said if youre gonna shake the hands of german athletes, we would like you to shake the hands of every athlete who wins a meadow and hitler decided that theyre moving forward. He wouldnt shake the hands of any of the athletes. And just the owens took advantage of this moment when he came back to the us. He didnt have a lot of opportunities to capitalize on his athletic success, but one this story began to circulate that hitler had snubbed just the owens and jesse owens used it for his his benefit and he began to give lectures and dinners and things like that and that was often one of the most the most requested stories about how he had been snubbed by jesse owens and so it just became part of the myth of his experience in germany. So it wasnt a personal repudiation. He just wasnt shaking anybodys hand after that. Lets hear actually directly in his own voice and words from John Woodruff as i mentioned earlier Gold Medalist in the 800 meter about what it meant to him to win in that particular Olympic Games. Well, it made me it made me feel good because what we did we destroyed his master race theory . Because you know he had that master race theory that you know, the superior race that only only the pure germans could do certain things in this world. That was what he was advocating. But we destroyed his theory. Whenever we start winning. Those gold medals whats your reaction of that damian . I i sympathize with mr. Which was sort of positioned, but i i think i would i would disagree with that. Because what happens after the 36 olympics we have to remember the germany won the most medals at the 19 and they used their success to to suggest that they were the superior superior race certainly if you you think about lenny reichmann stalls amazing documentary about the olympics is this celebration of german excellence and athletic prowess and tying them back to the ancient democracies and in in greece and so while in america, we often will sort of emphasize the success of jesse owens and other americans ask sort of sort of repudiating those ideas the german certainly didnt see it that way. And even more than that the german propaganda. Is is can very easily explain away why africanamerican athletes dominate at the games, which they do . I mean not the nazi racist propaganda starts to argue that africanamericans are faster or can jump higher because theyre more animalistic right . So it doesnt theyre victories. Unfortunately dont theyre certainly not they dont change any opinions in nazi, germany, and unfortunately, they dont change many opinions in the United States as well. I think i think thats an important point to remember as well. Is that what happens with owens success and the success of these athletes and africanamericans becoming more dominant in the sports world is the meaning of sports begins to change. As i mentioned earlier you had this idea of healthy mind healthy body the idea that athletic ability and intellectual capacity go hand in hand, and thats why sports are so intricately linked to our American Educational system. However, when africanamericans began to dominate and excel in sports the meaning of sports changes and rather than those two things supporting each other you began to see people argue that theyre actually inversely related. So one of the things that propels the success of africanamericans and sports is the idea that if you are athletic superior, athletically superior than you must be intellectually inferior, and so its still is is such as is is articulating such a way that africanamericans despite their success be just become described as as less than white americans and others so its a way that the stereotypes and the racism morph. I know theres a lot written about especially the black male body, but the idea that they cant possibly be this level of achievement. Its something almost about them, right . We do have a really interesting perspective here frank cohen whos a holocaust survivor who volunteers at our museum here in dc shared actually his personal recollection that when he was 11 years old. He was listening to the Olympic Games on the radio. Remember, its for tv and he wrote and i quote we cheered the black athletes. Particularly jesse owens since by then we were aligned with our parents in opposition of german nationalism, and were not sorry when the german athletes lost. So for 11 year old frank a jewish kid that summer on a farm. He felt glad he felt some of what John Woodruff was describing. Danny we have a question from a viewer named barrel asking did any jewish athletes compete in the berlin olympics . Jewish athletes did compete in the berlin olympics but in a small numbers one jewish athlete in the winter games, which are held in february in germany in 1936 and one jewish athlete in the in the summer games and its you know been speculated that the germans included one jewish athlete in on each team to be able to say look. Were not discriminated discriminating against jewish athletes the jewish athlete who competed in the summer games. Helena meyer is a fencer. She was a dominant fencer. She had already won a gold medal in the 1928 games had competed in los angeles in 1932 and then stayed in la rather than returning to germany in part. I think concern for her own safety once the nazis took power in in 1933. Helena has one jewish parent and she wins a silver medal at the 1936 games in fencing. Shes remembered. Most for her moment on the podium here. She is on the right of this photo helena meyer had features that the nazis would have described as quote aryan features a blondehaired woman and shes giving the nazi salute on the podium a jewish woman, which was expected of all german athletes and theres a lot of speculation about why helena meyer did this some people say that she did it to protect her family members who were still in germany. She was worried especially for her brothers who were still living in germany, so that thats possible others say that she did it to try to rehabilitate her own image in in germany. Well, well never know but its its a troubling moment to see helena meyer giving giving that nazi salute at that time. This is the last olympics that she competes in and she actually returns to the United States after the olympics. To california and doesnt go back to germany until the the early 1950s and dies as a relatively young woman in the early 1950s. Please do post your questions both for damien and for danny in the comments section danny. We do have a couple of questions that id like to combine. Person named susan is asking whether the College Students you mentioned earlier who boycotted participation did they participate for years later or have ever at all and actually i think we can combine them suzanne from pittsburgh and barry from new york have both asked about Marty Glickman and sam stoller two athletes. We havent yet mentioned, but we were planning to do their story. So lets do that now if we could sure to the first question, no one competes four years later. There are no Olympic Games during world war ii, so theres no olympics in 1940 and theres no olympics in 1944. We have a gap between 1936 and 1948. So, you know if youre a 2020 or 22 year old athlete in 1936 by 1948. Youre in your mid 30s, and youre out of your prime. So the the people who hoped. Oh, ill compete in four. Mirrors never had that opportunity Marty Glickman and sam stoller are two American Jewish athletes sprinters glickman here is on the left. Hes a freshman at Syracuse University in new york in 1936. And sam stoller is a runner at the university of michigan. They go over on the olympic team these two jewish athletes to participate in the four by 100 meter relay one of the last track and field events and just before the race happens. Theyre told by the the american coach Dean Cromwell that theyre going to be replaced on the relay team by jesse owens and and another africanamerican sprinter Ralph Metcalf to arguably the two fastest men on the team faster than glickman installer to be sure. Marty glickman i had the chance to to meet and talk with Marty Glickman a few times before he he passed away. He attributed this to antisemitism and to not wanting the American Olympic committee not wanting to show up hitler anymore than they already had by having jewish athletes win win medals at the games and with glickman installers times. They probably would have run one running with running with that team with with owens and metcalf. Its a dominant race and the americans when the gold medal we dont know we wont know for sure why glickman and and installer were replaced glickman was quite outspoken about it throughout much of his life. Sam stoller said very little about this after the games although the little bit that he did say about it. He didnt he wasnt sure that it was antisemitism among the American Olympic committee that that led to the to the removal or the replacement of these two runners at the at the last and it ultimately allows jesse owens to win his fourth gold medal at the game. He went over to run three races and ends up running for and or competing in four events, sorry and and winning four gold medals. Damien we have a not dissimilar story in the case of the the loan to africanamerican women athletes who are at berlin. Could you tell us about these two women, please . Sure tidy pick it and louise stokes were members of the the 1932 team and should have had an opportunity to compete in the los angeles, but they they didnt get a chance to compete despite excelling in their events. Im in 1936 those two women were were put on the olympic team again. Tidy pickett who who was a herdler was actually became the first africanamerican woman to compete in the Olympic Games when she competed in the the 80 meter hurdles. Unfortunately, she hit one of the herders and one of the earlier races broke her foot and wasnt able to to make it to the finals louis stokes was on the team but didnt get a chance to compete in her her running race. This was also important because they were in many ways caught up. And in both the racial dynamics, but also the gender dynam. Ics of the 1936 Olympic Games and so these two women became the first of many africanamerican women who would go on to dominate womens tracking track and field by the early 1950s. And so theyre sacrifices and dedication help pave the way for for a later generation. We have a couple of viewer questions for you. Damien viewer named darcy first while sending greetings from Chicago Place that all of us have connections to so thank you darcy. Darcys asking. Can you share some of the discrimination and challenges that americas black athletes faced after they returned home from berlin were they received as heroes . Sure, if you think about the story of jesse owens at the time the greatest track and field performance in history immediately after the games the American Olympic committee went on a tour of europe and they had the athletes competing after two or three days. So it was it was a grinding performance and and they were trying to raise money for to offset the expenses of the participating in the olympics. Just he hollins just the owens who was worn out who was tired. Um decided to go home and he was actually barred from from competing and in track and field thats sort of an amazing story to think about but he spent much of the 1940s, um performing and what you would call spectacles he he would would race horses as a to raise money he trave the Harlem Globetrotters and doing the halftime. Performance he would he would run over hurdles as a form of entertainment and he really struggled to find an economic wedding and to benefit from his athletic prowess in ways that a lot of his his other white white colleagues and didnt didnt struggle and so many of them came back to a segregated america and and had to to fight for for quality. And as i said before we certainly see that with the case with john which who all so joined the military which was which was quite common as well. Im reminded of a really disturbing episode that happened to John Woodruff after he returned, you know, he was a cult when he returned to college. He was actually prevented from competing at a track meet at the Naval Academy in annapolis because of racism and he reflected and i quote now here i am in olympic champion and they told the coach that i couldnt run i couldnt come so i had to stay home because of discrimination things hadnt changed. Im some athletes i have to just because of the chicago shout out. I we should say right we havent talked much about Ralph Metcalf who is a runner at marquette who wins multiple medals at the at the games and you know, he continues to persevere in the struggle against racism and becomes a congressman from chicago. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely a truly complex and fascinating figure and we can post some links about that in the comments. We have just a few minutes left. So i would like to ask one more question of each of you damian a viewer named mills is asking whether you see a connection between this post 1936 change in the meaning of sports that you described and the high representation of africanamericans in contemporary sports. What are your thoughts on that . I in some ways. Id like to challenge that i dont think africanamericans are highly represented in sports africanamericans are not the majority. Of athletes competing and professional sports in america. Certainly. They constitute a majority of those in football in basketball, but if we think about the Broad Spectrum of of the sports arena africanamerican steel represent a significant minority and i think a lot of it has to do not with with the idea that africanamerican americans are somehow genetically superior or better athletes. Its about opportunity many of the other sports have really high barriers to competition. Theyre quite expensive to play in and so what what we see is that africanamericans are concentrated in in the sports where theyre is low entry or in some way subsidize entry if you think about the way sports are sort of amateur sports are sort of organized. You dont really get recruited based on your your High School Teams performance, but its at the club level for example example amateur Athletic Union basketball is really important in teams travel all over the country, but the best teams are subsidized by Shoe Companies and things like that. However, we dont see that same system in baseball, which also is based on traveling teams and things like that and the the to entry the high cost. Often means that that you dont get a number of africanamericans involved. I think damien youve really just kind of hinted at what are very very complex threads woven together about social mobility and sport and the way that they function danny in closing our viewers have been debating in the comments section america and americans choices to participate in the 36 games one viewer named pam has said it was a bad choice that it helped make the cruel National Socialist regime look legitimate to the world, but another person michelle replied that she felt that africanamerican athletes and jewish athletes showed the illegitimacy of the nazi ideal and embarrass them as a historian. How do you reflect on the power of the 1936 olympics to shape the narrative of nazi, germany . Well, there are the 1936 olympics are a moment of great triumph for nazi germany a moment of International Triumph as weve said where they they convinced the world that they belong in the community of nations and more than that that theyre one of the most advanced of those nations. It is troubling. I i im sympathetic with the viewers comments. Its troubling. That there is not a more sustained international protest against nazi germany, and its of course tempting to wonder what would have happened if there were widespread boycotts by by many nations. Germany may have been deeply embarrassed by that, but i dont think as a historian its always hard to play with counterfactuals, but i dont think as a historian that that would have stopped hitlers ambitions and in fact right after the games we see germany start to continue to rearm in violation of the treaty that had ended world war i see them start to make plans to encroach on on territory and that will continue tragically with the the beginning of world war ii just three years after the olympics that leads to the holocaust and the death of millions of and millions of others throughout europe. On that somber note, i would like to thank you danny. Thank you damian very much for a really provocative conversation. Im glad you were here. The private world of the president ial retreat. Hello welcome to another episode of history live. Im doctor colleen im a Senior Vice President at the White House Historical association and the director of the david Science Center for white house history. The White House Historical association is a nonprofit, Nonpartisan Organization with a mission to educate americans about that rich and diverse history of the white house and the people who live and work there. Our guest this evening is michael he is a retired rear admiral from the navy
vimarsana.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.