Transcripts For CSPAN3 1981 Assassination Attempt On President Reagan 20170513

President this night event 90 minute event held at the same hilton hotel in washington, d. C. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. My name is craig. And the president and ceo of the National Law Enforcement officers Memorial Fund. Tonight, on behalf of the board of directors, we are pleased to present our 16 witness to history program. This is a series of programs we do where we invite the actual participants of historical Law Enforcement events to tell us their stories. It has been fascinating. Every event we have done, we film them and they will be a permanent part of the Museum Archives, and we couldnt be prouder of the content we had assembled and compiled so far. Tonights event will explore the assassination attempt on president Ronald Reagan 26 years ago. 26 years ago on march 30, one week or so ago. Before we begin, i want to acknowledge and thank our partner and very proud sponsor of our witness to history series. They have been a longtime partner of the Memorial Fund and supported us in so many ways. That is target. There distinguished representatives are here tonight. George richards and mahogany eller. Where are they . Thank you both. [applause] craig i also want to thank our friends here at the washington hilton hotel. This is a very special place, obviously, as a relates to tonights event. Truly a unique opportunity to talk about a historic moment at the place that the assassination attempt actually occurred. Of course, i want to thank all of our guests who have turned out here tonight. This is one of our largest audiences we have had for these witness to history events. I want to point out tonights event is being streamed live on facebook. As we have done the last couple of events. It is being filmed by the Memorial Fund and our National Law Enforcement museum so it can be a permanent part of our Museum Archives for the benefit of future generations. Tonight, we are pleased to have back with us, they have filmed many of these events of the past, that is the American History television, cspan3. You can find it on your television. It airs on weekends. You can check their website, the cspan website, for specific dates and times. It also airs on the internet. You can find a couple of different ways. It should be airing very soon. We will also have this event on our Memorial Fund website in the future. You go to lawenforcementmuseum. Org and see the entire presentation from beginning to end. For those of you who may not be familiar with the Memorial Fund or National Law Enforcement museum, i want to offer a brief introduction into who we are and what we do. Founded in 1984, we build and now operate the National Law Enforcement officers memorial. That is located in Judiciary Square in the 400 block of east street northwest washington. E street northwest washington. This National Monument was dedicated in 1991 and honors the Extraordinary Service and sacrifice of americas policing professionals. It bears the names of nearly 21,000 officers who have made the ultimate sacrifice dating back to the first death in 1791. The memorial now includes the names of 29 members of the United States secret service, dating back to the first death in 1902. That was u. S. Secret Service Operative william crank, struck and killed by a trolley car while protecting president Theodore Roosevelt in massachusetts. Sadly, new names are added each year in our candlelight vigil on may 13. All of you are invited to attend this years event, at 8 p. M. On the national mall, saturday, may 13. This year, we will be dedicating 394 new names to the memorial , including 143 Law Enforcement Fallen Heroes from 2016, among the Law Enforcement heroes from the past is names will be added, including secret Service Assistant special agent in charge james collins, who suffered a heart attack while on duty in 1992. We are also a leader in promoting officer safety and wellness. As our chairman, former u. S. Attorney general John Ashcroft likes to say there is no better way to honor the fallen them to stop the falling. Despite our successes, much work is needed in this area. Last year, 65 officers were shot to death. 21 of them in ambush style attacks. For the last two decades, we have been working on a determined effort to build the first ever congressionally authorized museum to tell the story of american Law Enforcement. Construction on the museum commenced a year ago and is scheduled to open in the fall of 2018. It is located in the 400 block of e street northwest across the street from the national memorial. This largely Experiential Museum will allow visitors to walk in the shoes of the Law Enforcement officer through hightech interactive exhibitions, our missions is to tell the story of american Law Enforcement, to strengthen the bond between the officers and the public that they serve and protect. For more information about the National Law Enforcement museum and to follow its progress toward opening, go to our website located at lawenforcementmuseuem. Org. You can sign up or the monthly newsletter, we call it the insider. For tonights program, we go back to march 30, 1981. President Ronald Reagan was newly inaugurated and speaking at a meeting of the aflcio at the washington hilton. It was a routine day for the President Secret Service special agents, the president ial protective division, who had been at the hilton many times before. On that day, John Hinckley junior attempted to assassinate the president in an effort to draw the attention of actress jodie foster. Due to quick and effective actions of many Law Enforcement professionals, including our three panelists, the president was rushed to George Washington University Hospital where the doctors were able to save his life and John Hinckley junior was captured and arrested. Tonight, we will get to hear from two former secret Service Agents who were there, one we took a bullet for president reagan, and one former fbi agent who led the subsequent investigation. And now the story of the assassination attempt on president Ronald Reagan, shooting that shocked our nation, an investigation and aftermath that followed, and the changes that occurred in president ial production as a protection as a result of this historic event. At this time, i would like to turn the program over to the moderator, tom sherwood. For those of us from the area, we know tom is a veteran journalist and longtime picture at nbc 4 television, specializing in politics and government. Hes a resident guest analyst every friday on wamus politics our, and is the coauthor of dream city race, power, and the decline of washington dc. Please join me in welcoming tom. He will introduce us to our panelists. It is all yours. [applause] tom the new title of the second edition is race, power, and the revival of washington dc. [laughter] it came out 20 years later and took that long. Thank you. I want to thank all the organizers. And i want to thank the audience for being here. It is important we learn from history, whether we agree on it or not. I never ask to turn off cell phones, but if your phone rings, you have to stand up, put it on speaker, and then answer it. [laughter] tonight, we are going to talk for a while about the events of march 1, 1981. I heard yours ringing. That is before i set the rule. I going to guide the questions to get the discussion going. You can see personal reactions. We all know the outlines from history. We will take questions. We are not expecting the monologues for either the people asking the questions or from the panelists. Lets set the stage for march, 1981. On march 6, 1981, Walter Cronkite left for the cbs news and then dan rather took over. In march of 1981 the price of a firstclass stamp went up from . 15 to . 18. On march 9, 1981, the First Successful heartlung transplant occurred at stanford university. And on march 7, 1981 in denver, colorado, worried parents confronted their son, and on the advice of a psychiatrist, gave their son a couple hundred dollars, and said, you are on your own. That young man was John Hinckley. Lets welcome the panelists. Former secret Service Agent tim mccarthy to my immediate right. [applause] former secret Service Agent danny spragues. [applause] former fbi agent tom baker. [applause] there will be no jurisdiction or disputes tonight. [laughter] as you heard, on march 30, president reagan came to the washington hilton to address a trades convention luncheon. He was in the big ballroom down from here. The last words of his speech, as he was leaving, he asked union guys to work with him so that he could make America Great again. [laughter] a lot of people dont know that. They do now. When the president was speaking we will move this back so people will not have to watch the podium. Can it be moved . Im going to sit, but then these people cant see because of this. We will take one moment and i will ask the question again because i forgot it. [applause] tom when the president was giving the speech, where were you . I think i was stage left. During the speech. We were briefed at the white house of the positions and formations, motorcade routes, primary, secondary, hospital routes, primary and secondary, safe rooms, things of that nature. The itinerary is always done over before leaving the white house. We know our assignments before we went through the event , arriving down the elevator, because the ballrooms are on the lower level. After that, we referred to as a grip and grin when the president would shake hands with the vips from the trade unions. The speech ended and when we came back, some of us came up the stairs, and we exited the hilton hotel. Tom did you listen to the speech . No . I know the agents dont really. [laughter] mr. Baker . Where were you . Actually, on that day, i was not assigned to the protective division, i was assigned to the Washington Field office. The Washington Field Office Supplies all the manpower and resources whenever the president or Vice President has a visit within the city, as well as heads of state. My assignment from the Washington Field office i would was assigned as the with the intelligence team. My duty actually was too ahead of time notified when we are notified of the visit, use Due Diligence to identify individuals or groups, or anything that might pose a threat to the president. During the time of the speech, i was in the ballroom, but i was more conscious of where the people were posted to see if there were any problems. Tom and mr. Baker, you were assigned to the Washington Field office for the fbi. What were you initially doing that morning before the luncheon . Dont forget our guest over there. We want to make eye contact with them. When the collection plate goes around. In answer to your question, i can note one thing. It was somewhat unique at that moment, it had an impact throughout the day, the director of the fbi was out of town. He was in williamsburg, virginia for the first of what would become annual meetings with special agents in charge. The special agent in charge of the Washington Field was also with the director out of town. In those days, there were two assistant agents in charge. I was actually in my car just leaving a meeting at fbi headquarters, entering onto the street when the commercial radio , wmal, broadcasted that the president had just been shot in front of the hilton. That was almost exactly at 2 30. Tom we heard a lot about the moment the president walked onto t street. To the side of the hotel. Mr. Sprigs and mr. Mccarthy, six shots rang out. Mr. Mccarthy, you were wounded. What were your immediate reactions . Somebody said something about how you immediately took a pose to protect the president. Tell us the initial seconds. What were you doing and thinking . Im going to take one second before we get there to recognize our boss, who passed away recently. [applause] tom he wrote a good book. He wrote a good book. God bless him. I forget the question. [laughter] tom we will remember that. The immediate reaction. You have training. You are trained to do things without thinking. But you also think about whats going on. Tell us the heart pounding moment, what was it like . I did not think. It was a reaction to training. We trained very intensely at the secret service and president ial protective division. The only thing you can do is reaction based upon training. Much like the military going up the hill, or Police Officers going down a dark alley, it is based upon training. I cant say that i could think about it because it happened quickly. It was over in 1. 4 seconds, six shots. It was a reaction based on training. I would like to say i thought about it, but i really didnt. I reacted the way we were trained to react. I am very happy i was able to do it. Based upon my training. I do not know if i could do it again and do not want to find out. Tom we saw during the president ial campaign when President Trump was speaking, someone broke through the, area and suddenly there were four or five agents around him in a heartbeat. Cover and evacuate. There are several techniques in the secret service they are pounded into you in training and several exercises to cover and evacuate the president. In many cases if the threat is in arm reach, you go for the threat. If it is not, and you want a diversion, you can divert an agent out the hallway. There are two things you train for. It is called aop, attack on a principle or protecting. That is to cover and evacuate a president , or in arms reach, reach for the attacker. If the weapon is that close. Tom no time to think. Mr. Sprigs, the moment you heard shots, where were you . Were you walking out . I had just proceeded to detail the agent assigned to the president on to t street. Tim is absolutely right. There is no way an individual starts thinking in 1. 4 seconds. Muscle memory comes into play. But i will note that even though you cant think in that amount of time and everything is instinctive, you are anticipating what if . Now that we are out on a public venue, what if something did happen . The response you saw from tim, jerry, and the other agents, was basically the idea that what if something happens, what am i going to do . That was my reaction. When i heard the shots, i went to my weapon. I recognized shots had gone off. I only had seconds to determine where the shots were coming from. By that time, we saw the smoke from the weapon, we saw individuals moving for the potential assailant. So, even though you dont have time to think, you are anticipating what if, and are you going to be able to respond based on training . Tom and mr. Mccarthy, you were shot in the side. Shot in the chest. Tom the media never gets it right. Walter cronkite had it wrong. I can tell you about that later. Tom you were wounded. Had you been wounded before in the line of duty . I had cuts and bruises, but never anything like that. My father was a chicago policeman, so its not like i didnt know this was a fulltime contact sport. Tom when did you realize you were shot . About the time i hit the ground. [laughter] i forgot why i was there. I saw little blood on my shirt. I heard the gunshots and then it didnt take much to put two and two together. Tom someone told me there was concern you were going to be will run over by the president ial limousine. The number one thing is to get the president out, and you were on the ground. Was that a media misrepresentation . I hope so. [laughter] tom you went to the hospital, also. Yes. Jim brady and the president and i went to George Washington hospital. Other officers went to washington metro. That is the protocol, washington, d. C. Officers went there. We were there any different emergency rooms. Tom and you went and an ambulance came to get you . Yes. In the secret service, the training we go through you are assigned to protect the president. The agents on the detail go with the president. They dont stay around to help the wounded as worthy of cause that is, to be a humanitarian. It is to be with the president. One doesnt know if this is a diversion, and there could be an attack in another spot. They left but other agents came and took my radio and weapon and waited until an ambulance arrived to take me to the hospital. Tom mr. Baker, you turned and went to the hotel, driving the speed limit [laughter] you get there, and one of the things so unique about this, is that the public and the media were way too close to where the president was, and mr. Kessler writes in his book, he says the secret Service Wanted people back, and the white house wanted more of a friendly atmosphere for the president to walk out. When you got there, what did you see . On that particular controversy, i cant comment, because i dont know anything about it. To step back into another controversy, you alluded to jurisdictional things, answering i am certain the secret Service Agents, when they went to training, they were told about the assassination of president kennedy. In the fbi, we heard a lot about that as well. As we know, everybody in this room, to this day, there are all kinds of conspiracy theories and criticisms of the way things were done when president kennedy was shot. It was sort of drilled into us that we dont want this to happen again. I am sure it was something that was really drilled into the secret service. The minute i heard it, and i had about a four minute ride, because i was already headed that direction, on the radio they said the hilton. I call on our radio, which hilton . My station didnt know which hilton, because it literally had just happened. The media was with the president when it happened. Eventually, i heard it, and both of the hotels were uptown from where i was. I continued to go up. As im driving, im thinking, and im sure the secret Service People thought the same thing, im thinking back to the kennedy thing. We cant get in a fight. We have to work this out. We have to do it right. Since that time, i have talked to everybody involved in this case. Everybody has the same feeling. We have to do this right. I was formulating thoughts in my head as i went up there, and also on the bureau radio back to our base, they were in touch with headquarters. They were going to send a truck from the lab. I was doing this as i went until i got here. Tom mr. Spriggs, John Hinckley fired off six shots in one and a half seconds. You went towards him . Correct. Tom why wasnt he shot . I think i was the only agent that had a shot at him. As i pulled my revolver to shoot him, i saw an agent coming into my line of fire. Sergeant. P being a they identified him later in the fbi tapes. That shot was only there for a millisecond. Tom but you moved towards him. I did not shoot, obviously. I moved towards him my job as the intelligent agent was to preserve the scene, take the assailant into custody. Tom how was he apprehended and moved out . Who did what to get hinkley under control, and i presume into a car, and out . I actually think it was a citizen who had observed him remove his weapon and was the first person that got their hands on hinkley and moved his shoulders down. For all purposes, all Law Enforcement that was there and the agents that were there, my partner, actually dove into the crowd to make sure there wasnt going to be any additional firing. The other agents converged as well as myself. When we got there, there was a little confusion. We knew we had the person that fired the shot. There was the issue of being able to constrain him, making sure we can see his hands, and handcuff him. There was a little confusion. Im on one end, there was a sergeant pulling on the other end, and thats it about a half a second. Once we got him, i had one hand on him. The nearest agent that i could see you probably saw the photographs he branded the uzi submachine gun. I asked him for a car. By that time the president had departed the scene. We were looking to get him out of the area. I knew i had the right person. We wanted to get him out of the area. We didnt know if there were secondary people involved. There was no need for us to stay there. Tom where was he taken . Central cellblock. Metropolitan Police Department central cellblock. Tom going back to the press, and the public too close to the president , that would not ever happen now. I would like to clarify. Tom excuse me, i have to say, ron kesslers book, the first family detail. He writes about this. Im glad tim is going to address this. I didnt read his book, i read excerpts of it, it really wasnt a controversy. It was a different time then. It was the staffs that dictated and still dictate what the secret service do. Tom staff at the white house. Yes. Secret service lobbied the white house to use metal detectors. There was Old Technology by that time. I was told by some of our bosses that they had asked, and had been turned down. The staff didnt want to seem like there was a besieged atmosphere around the president , despite intelligence knowing how many threats come in. That was not a secret service decision. We would have the president would have been transported in a bulletproof bubble if it was our choice. Keeping people like eight or 10 feet behind a rope line was acceptable in that day. Not by us. I was a staff decision at that time. To this day thats what a staff decision at that time. To this day, the staff still dictates to a certain extent the perimeter around the president. Tom the agent would have to agents say that theyre worried about this, or intervene . Even now you can have disagreements. Sure you can. I want to add to the issue about the crowd being too close. He is spot on in the says that was an acceptable distance. The secret service, based on the advance work, we knew where the vulnerabilities were. We posted officers and agents to address that and mitigate that. The idea that the crowd was too close, we know that was the main entrance to the hotel. There was a distance by which we could operate and post the necessary mitigations to make for anything that may happen. They really overplay the idea that the crowd was too close, or they were not far away enough. I think thats one of the things that im glad we can kind of clarify. Tom any fbi view on this . Thats their job, protection. We get involved after it happened. That was the first time that happened. Back in dallas, the law was not clear. You have the sheriffs office, the Police Department, the fbi, and secret service all looking at the situation and trying to investigate this thing. I think all the history books say it was badly mishandled. , theity for the prisoner assassin, was badly mishandled then. We are trying to do things correctly in the present day and it was very clear, from not only the statute, but from protocol signed off by everybody. There was not an attack on the president , the fbi responsibility. Storiesemembered these about disagreements bad stories about disagreements and across my mind, as i was driving that, icticut avenue, will get in some argument or disagreement with somebody, that was on my mind. I got out. It was also on my mind that i had certain assignments, i wanted to get to the other agents. The problem was, i was the first fbi agent to arrive. Nobody for me to give assignments to. [laughter] this is a big point i want to make. The corporation and the coordination between all of the agencies involved, that is principally the secret service, the washington metropolitan police, and the fbi, did turned out to be outstanding. As i got out of the car, it was a chaotic scene, i found out later, i got there within five minutes of the shooting, and alleges were still arriving and they kept arriving ambulances were still arriving and they kept arriving. The marines had sent two helicopters to the scene to evacuate. They stayed above the street for about five or six minutes, making a horrendous noise. I walked into this chaotic scene , thinking i would have an argument with somebody, which never happened. Because wehappened, had worked and drilled together in the past, and the management of these three agencies, only 60 days before, had worked together on the inauguration, we had exchanged personnel and each others command posts, we knew each other and a lot of these people knew my face. I was at all these meetings and these command posts. I walked out there, the first person that comes up to me is a lieutenant from the washington monster ball at an Police Department, Wilson Washington municipal Police Department, wilson, he has an envelope already and said to me, i have begun. The gun. I said hold on to that, we want to shorten the chain of evidence. The second person that came up powers, was the assistant director . Was he the assistant director . The special agent in george in charge of the office and washington, d. C. I had met him before. The first word out of his mouth is you are fbi, you are in charge. [laughter] there is no argument. I just have nobody to give assignments to. [laughter] the whole day was like that. Tom when we talk about shots fired, six and 1. 5 seconds, it feels a lot longer. Absolutely. That manyhat he fired rounds in 1. 4 seconds, is mindboggling when you think about 1. 4 seconds. Aboutms you hear people talking about it in movies, it makes things move in slow motion, that is how it was for me. I could clearly see that people were down, i saw tim was down and others. I did not know the president was shot. I am barking out commands to get me a car and lets get moving. It seemed like slowmotion. Tom i thought i heard a cell phone. It was not mine. The fbi will investigate. [laughter] tom did hinckley have a mood . Him, youthe mood of knew it right then or learn it later as he was taken into custody . When we got him into the car, that was the issue, get a feel for what he was about. An officer was driving. I was in the back. He was a metropolitan Police Department officer. Tom a great under cover effort with the fbi. Excuse me for interrupting. There is still a little confusion. In our records, he was one of the he is the uniformed officer at the time, one of the guys who got the gun off of hinckley and gave it to lieutenant wilson. Deceasedight, he is but later rose up in the Police Department and became the taxicab commissioner. Tom did a great job. The demeanor of John Hinckley, i am amazed he was not shot. He is in the car and you are taking him to the cellblock. What do you hear back . He is very stoic and not saying anything. Dennis, starts advising him of his rights. Notll dennis that we are advising him of his rights because we will not ask him anything. It will not a conversation. The observation asking where to go and i say central cellblock. The officer is asking where to go and i say central blue but. That was the time of march madness the basketball tournament, he asked if we knew the scores of the basketball games. We looked at him, i think there were a couple of expletives dennis said to him. We were not going to say anything. He was very stoic and did not say a word. Our main concern was getting him to a safe area. I reverted back to my training and the knowledge of the previous assassination attempts to the kennedy assassination, i wanted to get him to a safe place. I asked to make sure officers were there in the garage where we were going to be feared i started thinking about that, i am only five years on the job. I remember my training and previous assassination attempts. Here, theyagents in plan for a situation like that, take an assailant to the Washington Field office. I felt tom i Buzzard Point at that time . On l street at that time. It was a commercial district and there were lots of people and a lot of activity. I was reverting back to the kennedy assassination. I knew i had a secure area at central cellblock. Did notery stoic and say anything, he asked about the scores of the ncaa games. My thing was to get him in there and identify him. Tom ager mccarthy, you rangoned, when the shots out, you do not know if it is one person or a diversionary tactic. You do not know what is happening but you respond. This is the classic case of what you call a lone wolf. Someone who comes up and not part of a group. Not part of a massive organization. Isnt that still the most difficult problem today, the lone wolf who is acting in his own world, that something may happen . Yes, the historic assassin has been the single lung gunmen come even with lee harvey ahs walled to lee harvey oswald. There are conspiracy terrorists. Lincoln, and forward, roosevelt, when he was shot, and others, it was the low gunmen who got close to the president. After march of 1981, because of the secret service, metal detectors were introduced the next day and no coincidence that there has not been another attack on the president by a lone gunman, over 36, 37 years. Metal the sectors are not full proof metal detectors are not told proof but the secret andice are very effective the has shown over 37 years, that the lung gunmen was a historic assassin, has been, to a certain aesthetic, the lone gunmen, was historic assassin, has been that,annot add much to other than to say, the secret Service Always reviews assassination attempts or unusual incidences concerning his portuguese. There were project these. Protectees. Then there was more emphasis on covered arrivals. Subsequent to that, you saw president s not being exposed as much. Using loading dock areas and tents to cover the arrivals and departures. These are things that grew out of that. Not to say that should have been done before. You have to adjust and adapt to an environment. The basic fundamental skills, or training tactics, cover and evacuate. And you grow from there. You adjust to the environment and the situation. And in the event. Some events you may have 20 people and some you may have 20,000, but the basic rule is the same relative to a limiting the exposure eliminating the exposure. Tom president reagan was a friendly guy. Mr. Baker, if you isolate the president and he or she would live in a bubble, do they lose some contact with the very people they lead . Analysiscret Service Looking back on the lone gunmen, from the fbi point of view, that day, we did not initially see it that way. The reality was that, that particular month, 60 days into the reagan administration, the country was in a high state of tension. Solidarity in poland, the russians were threatening. Russiansy before, the moved in their ballistic fleet within a line to our coast, they had never been so close before. We did not know that at the time but we knew there was this tension. Hours, werst several do not know what we had. Pleaded not know if somebody else would be attacked, we handled it as a crisis and that there could be other attacks. Later in the day, as information became available and the investigation started to unwind, we realized we had this mentally deranged young man. For the first couple of hours, it was tense. That is how it was. Tom nothing has matched its sense, not even 9 11, you were not personally involved, do you remember where you were on 9 11 . Illinois,f police in i was going to the dentist when i heard about it. I turned around and came home because, you did not know if ,his was isolated, not isolated but if your community could be next. I took precautions. I was assistant director for the office of protective operations. , i gote event took place my stuff together to make sure we could identify for all of our protectees. Then it was an immediate move to the directors crisis center. For command or decisionmaking. Tom where were you . A little bit of a diversion. Ask themb used to leftfield questions and i am trying to channel brian lamb. [applause] [laughter] i had just retired and i was at home that morning. I lived in virginia. Road, allacked onto a morning long, we heard firetrucks coming from jurisdictions further to the west come all going towards the pentagon. Came withurs they alarms running. Retired. Are all thank you for your service. This may be the shortest part of the panel, do you think the department of Homeland Security is a good idea . [applause] there are two sides to that coin, maybe they have extra resources come in a large agency and do not get the attention they once did in the Treasury Department when they were not below and agency. Not the loan agency. I have heard both sides. Ifr from retired and active agent that, there may be some positives, there have been negatives. I do not know what the truth is. Tom that would be a very good answer to run for office. [applause] perfectly sliced right down the middle. To lead the director the transition from treasury to department of Homeland Security. Wish we wouldve stayed in the department of treasury. That is what my thought is. Tom mr. Baker i have an opinion. Tom the fbi is looking for a headquarters, a controversy about where it will go. What do you think about Homeland Security . In public affairs, i know there are several people who are students of history come in history, whenever a crisis happens, people are leaders, they have to they feel they have to do something, after 9 11, they did this one thing, created the department of Homeland Security and shove the secret service and other agencies under this umbrella. They also created the office of National Intelligence. You have the cia and fbi, and other agencies with intelligence responsibilities and created this other office. The director of National Intelligence over the director of central intelligence. , thereas i am concerned are several congressmen and senators of both parties who feel this way in trying to change a back, it created another level of bureaucracy and another level through which information rises. I think it was a mistake but an understandable mistake. As how public officials, they feel they have to do something. They created another big level. Tom an important conversation to have. Rising out of the reagan assassination attempt, 9 11, lets go back to John Hinckley. In a few moments, we will take questions. There are microphones on either side. If you have a question, remember, no monologues. A new York Magazine this month had an interesting article about John Hinckley, efforts to be released. Moving down to williamsburg. He has to check in with the secret service. He has a brother and sister, i think they still live on the west coast and his mother is 90 or something. Not quite sure what will happen to join me going when his mother dies. John hinckley when his mother dies. Do you know how closely secret service keeps an eye on them and do you have personal thoughts or feelings about john pinkley John Hinckley . I do not have a lot of good christian thoughts about him. , for years,however the u. S. Attorneys office would call me when they started releasing him, they would track me down and we would play phone tag going back and forth. They would tell me i could not tell anyone we have told you he is out and moving around. I finally asked them after two years of this telephone tag, why do you keep calling me . If you think im worried he is out, he should be more worried i know he is out. [applause] i said give me a call if he comes to chicago but he is never stop in chicago. Y better be sure about others have been released. Nothing has happened. Anyoneg anyone, injuring is a terrible act. Shooting the president of the United States is a different thing. The only way the president should be removed from office is at the ballot box or impeached. It is the will of the people he or she gets four years or eight years and that is what the secret service is all about, to ensure the will of the people is executed. I am skeptical about releasing someone who has committed an act like that, that goes for Sara Jane Moore as well as john dingell he John Hinckley. His he actually was not convicted in a sense, he was confined because he was judged to be insane. One of the aftermaths of this case was the federal insanity defense was changed. In most states, they made , so the insanity defense is not used as much anymore. Very honest,o be can i point out one thing . That evening, late, about midnight after we were picking up the pieces in the Washington Field office, after we did a search of his room, we had to make two decisions, one of them was to choose a case agent. By that time, the agent in charge had come back, and we sat down and we gave a thought to who would be the case agent for this case. We chose a man who is here tonight, frank, he became the case agent. [laughter] [applause] court. The case through tom what did he say . I said he did a great job. In the course of that, i kept my mouth shut. I said, this kid hinkley is crazy. And yet, the u. S. Attorneys office and everybody else thought there was an avenue to convict him of this and the trial went on for months. Handled by an outstanding u. S. Attorney handled by an h things through. Frank and the team did a great job. In my heart of hearts, i said this guy is crazy. They were saying that we can get a conviction. You know heat is crazy now but i am a layman when i say crazy, i am not a doctor. When you saw what we found in his room that night, this guy something todoing win the heart of a beautiful hollywood actress. To me, that is crazy. Tom agent mccarthy, you are modest when i asked about being shot and almost being run over. You went to the hospital. Did you talk to the president about that . Yes. Tom tell us about that. Lighter than we just had to discuss. If you have questions, please come up to the microphone. The last day i was in the hospital, i was there 10 days, i did not have a meeting with the president. He was injured more seriously and there longer. On the last day i was in the hospital, my wife and two of my children, jeff and jeannie, came to get me, my daughter brought her nursing kit to make sure everything was in order at four years old. My son was acting like a doctor. They came to get me. I had a message before i leave to come down to see the president. It sounded like in order to me. [laughter] down, my wifent and two of our children. Tom you werent wearing a hospital gown . [laughter] i was not but he was. Mrs. Reagan was there and we had a nice conversation, we had four inches of armored glass on his window, the old cap old type that would distort your vision. He was still hooked up to machines. Tubes that when the two different places that flash red and green and make noises that attract children. It was attracting my two children and my wife was more nervous than i was, worried that my children may finish the job that john dingell he John Hinckley jr started. The president of the United States did not know tim mccarthy from anyone. You work three shifts and rotate but we had a wonderful conversation. We had a meal later on. It was time to go later and we were about out the door, ready to head for home, which i was anxious to get to, he stops and said wait a minute, 10 tim,t was mccarthy, reagan, brady what the hell did this guy have against the irish . [laughter] ananyone who goes through incident in life, does not have to be this, a car crash, you have to recover physically and mentally. The president was a great example for me up lets get back on the horse. He injected a lot of humor from the beginning when he was shot. My family has been in Law Enforcement for years, friends, fromy, sure colleagues chicago, we all knew there was dangerous and he was a great example for me. In Critical Incident recovery, he did it for me that day. Tom did you get to keep your badge . Yes. They took everything from the day i was shot but returned at all. I have the retired badge. Tom we will not see that on ebay . Maybe one day. Tom im sure we have questions you do not have to get up, we will take the microphone to you. About i make a comment the president interview. Another decision we had to make any Washington Field office, it was crucial, who would interview the president , because he was a victim and was potentially a witness. We came up with two agents, john, a supervisor of whitecollar crimes. A to montgomery to have a public corruption squad. They both had suffered gunshot wounds. One in vietnam and marines who was shot several times, john was in the army and shot. Wouldught that these guys be the best people to interview the president , they could empathize with him. We wanted to get his story down correctly. They did that. They did a very good job. When they came back to the field office and we were waiting for them to come back, when they came back to the field office and told us about it, they were like you and so many other people i know that new or met president reagan, they were in awe. He was the victim and a witness, and they were, what a nice guy hey said they went in there, was in bed, it was three days later before they talk to him, mrs. Reagan met them outside. They would let them go in alone, that was the agreement. They wanted to be letter perfect. That is a reason we did not do it ourselves, we did not think the big bosses should do the interview, we wanted real agents to do this. They came back and said, they stand there and they start to interview him, he seemed initially not at ease, he said, i have nothing to offer you, all i have is a pitcher of water, here come he reached over to try and pour them two glasses of water. They immediately jumped and said , mr. President , we will get the water. That is how he was. He told them, similar to what you said, he did not remember anything. He said, i do not did not see anything. Said, do you like my jokes . [laughter] i like to keep the spirit of the people up. Thank you for your service. Forgive my ignorance but, how clear was it that shots were fired . I would and i mean, i would think, knowing that was happening and how generally in your job, how well can you know i shot is being fired and it is not some other source, if you could make adjustment . Think you always do. A reporter gave me a picture of myself on air force one. This happens from time to time. You can probably remember things like this. I recognized what it was. You dont know exactly what it is. The impression that it could be gunshots. Training . What type of weapon was it . It was a. 22 i have a little experience. In the washington, field office, part of the training was the newly formed Counter Assault team. Part of that training, basically, is to be able to identify rounds that are fired,. 223 rounds or different types of rounds. I had training that i was taking part in in the Washington Field office. Most of the folks who have been through the training can recognize different types of caliber weapons that are being fired. Some just have the ability to do that. Is that an fbi training matter . [indiscernible] open do you own a weapon . Is then lam, that question. I own a number of weapons. I have a brandnew shotgun. I am going to shoot some birds with it. Can only fire a single shot though. I would ask i once asked police chief cathy lanier here, i announced, have you ever fired your weapon in the line of duty . She said, yes, why . She had to shoot a dog that had a disease. She felt terrible. You have to carry guns. You can make a mistake and be in front of congress. Or you will have the media like me asking questions why did he do x instead of y . We wereecret service eluding to this the secret service does not have a special use of force policy. You can only fire your weapon when someones life is in danger. Can does not mean that you fire into a crowd. Fire . Ar field of yes. But there is no special dispensation for the use of force. It is the restraint that should be commended. Thank you very much. In 1981, did secret Service Offer or issue ballistic vests . Had. Wish they obviously with your injury we had very good vests that were form fitted. They are different from what my officers aware today. Now they can be wrapped up in a ball. They are that light. Back then, they were quite a bit heavier and we were only required to wear them if specific intelligence indicated in new minutes that, generally overseas and places over there. My wife insisted that i wore it after that. But back in the day, that was 37 iars ago, 36 years ago would have walked away from that. There are a few other folks. Itried to eventually think they started to get to a policy of making this mandatory. At a hotel where we have security, it would be mandatory. There was a question over here . Hi. I would like to jump back to hinckley for a minute, if you dont mind. Can you talk about his background, if he had any marksmanship training . And what it was like to go to his house and talk to his family to hisark family . [indiscernible] what i was told right away hinckley was taken to central lockup, and later he was moved to the Homicide Office there. Make thenot distinction that the secret service had made that they were not going to attempt an interview. Hinckley was sitting there. Agents who, byo reputation we considered very good interviewers. They went to the office, and when they walked in there, and hinckley was sitting in a chair, one hand handcuffed to the chair, just waiting for it. They were talking in the fbi for a Washington Field office. During the course of this process, he had to stay at a hotel that no longer exists. Then another agent was given the assignment. He was a very young agent at the time. A week or two earlier, we had a we were meeting these young people. We would meet and greet them. Young. Ery a graduate ofwas notre dame. Tom bush wasnt. This was very important. How about tom bush . They gave him the job. We got the searching out the search warrant from the u. S. Attorneys office. We got it from the judge. T was about 9 00 at night we had the Forward Command post. And participated, observed the surge, and the search was done i dont think there was any chief of service, but the mpd was there and that is when we started to really get an inkling to answer your question. We had a little desk, and on the desk, he had laid out very neatly an article from that that shownewspaper the president s route through the day this was changed that was published every day in washington, where the president would be each hour through the day. Had it circled right there on the desk and next to that, he had a statement in the form of a , telling the advocates her he was doing this world historical event to win her to the actress, telling her he was doing this world historical event to win her love and affection. It was all there. And they even process to be room for fingerprints. Youlater, they said why are processing the fingerprints . Thesed, just in case conspiracy theories come up, we want to see who else is in the room. We want to. Everyi and cross ev ery t. Question, it your was very apparent that hinckley was a disturbing a disturbed individual. Were there any other fingerprints . Oh, yeah. All kinds of people. Thank you for your service to the country. I have a question with regards to the president ial limousine bunker here at the hilton. Two questions. Do you know how long after the assassination attempt it was before that was added . And in terms of hotels here in the district, is the hilton unique in terms of having one of those limousine bunkers . Year. Hink it was about a we continue to come here. To cut down the line of sight. It was a year, year and a half by the time he completed construction of the bunker. Was somewhat controversial, too. You get into the bunker and you could be locked in, you well. Too. U could be locked in, there were different bunkers as you refer to it, underground pose significant threats, too, especially in this day and age. The theory of protection changes. I was assigned to the president ial Protection Division on a couple of different occasions. I have never seen a hotel that has constructed you called it a bunker but i have never seen that as another hotel. Exactly. All of the hotels i have been in, they have not been constructed like that. This hotel has always in the back. There is a huge ballroom in behind were the speakers are. There is this long hallway that is not known by many people. But that is where you got to the center of the ballroom, which was pretty safe. Do we have a question over here . Armor there was the Nuclear Football was laying on the ground after the incident. Is that true . Just a rumor . I think it was jose it was not laying on the ground. He kept it. He jumped in a cab . He did the right thing. He got down low, he held onto it the entire time. The motorcade took off and he ended up jumping in the cab and going to the white house. Wow. I have a couple complaints with the fbi. [laughter] that is why we are not sitting next to each other. That is why he is in the middle. What a suit, shirts, shoes. And of course shoes, tie, suit, shirt, shoes. And of course, the government reimburse you. I believe the weapon is out in a library in simi valley. I think some of these artifacts are going to get to the museum. Would you like your bullet to be in the museum . I dont care where it goes. [laughter] shows what it might be to stories and conflated and what this gentleman mentioned is what it might be two stories and conflated. What this gentleman mentioned, there is the socalled football and he departed the scene, but what we learned later the like ancation, which is card, that credit football cannot be activated until the president puts the authentication card into the device. And reagan have the authentication card. Have the authentication card. It was the only thing he had in his pocket. President and tim were taken to the emergency room cute hospital professionals off all their clothes and it fell to the floor. The fbi came and went to the hospital. It was led by dan sullivan. Dan sullivan and his team went there. Hat became the crime scene there was the crime scene at the hotel. The crime scene in the limousine. The crime scene at the hospital. Thethey recovered president s clothing and there was all the blood on it and all of the other debris that fell , and ind this card was atr the next day, it least a day later, sitting in the office, pacing back and forth. Horrible, but he said, blankthese blankity people from the white house. I dont know if it was the secret service. There were some of these political people. Said, they are all exercised. And i said, what . Card thathis is the would have been the Nuclear Football. I thought, we should get extra commendation that our agents found it. But instead, they wanted that card back. Said, what, do they want to start a nuclear war . We did give the card back. About anythingd that could be evidence, holding onto it, so we did hold on to the president s clothing and things like that. We have time for one more question. I think what happened on this particular day flagged amazing actions, but it also did flagged that security with the white house. I would be curious what you think now when you see Television Shots of the president , the soaring pictures, the agent said a pretty far distance, the line of sight potentially pretty open. What you think now is going on in terms of securing and making sure there is not a repeat of what happened with you all this day . Theres always going to be a tension between security and staff. I dont want you to think because there is there might be an expensive view of the president view of the that there are not ways to address that. Just because there is an expansive feel, that is not a security issue. These Security Director knows the tension even better than i do. That has always taken place. Wants to press the flesh. They want to meet the public. There will always be that tension between security and staff. We should not isolate the president too much, as much as the president would like to. He is still elected by the people. But i think there is a balancing act. Didwe needed to do what we with metal detectors, as danny said. Others, as you can mention i wasent reagan said, was president carter and president bush, too. But that is always want to be there. Was the assistant director in saw oftentimes it may be a higher level than i did. It always exists. Its never going to change. I am with the associated press. I always get these questions. They say,yperson, boy, i cannot believe the president is that exposed. I am confident, when i see that, it tells me that that inner perimeter has expanded, that expanded soter has there are the resources and the assets that tim alluded to. If there was a need for those agents to be shoulder to shoulder, that would tell me they have a huge concern about the perimeter security, ok . The fact that they are able to loosen up a little bit, keep a little bit more line of sight tells me they have enhanced those measures. So, i feel confident that has taken place. There is more than one perimeter. Let me assure you. The president ial protection perimeter is the last line of defense between the Security Threat and the president , but there are other rings, other perimeters, and protection is a team sport. The secret service cannot do it alone. We do it with local police, other federal agencies, civilian agencies. The uniform division of the secret service is such a big part of protection. It is a team sport. Without them working together, it does not work. It is 18 sport. Is a team sport. So, security will continue to evolve, just as technology evolves, just as the press evolves. I think thats a good summary statement. Would you like a summary statement you want us to leave the room with . For sure. I think the events of march 30, 1981, basically its going to be part of the emblem of the secret service. But i can sell each and every that the secret service and uniformed agents come together to do the best job they can do. I trust my son to that outfit. Not only do they have the tools to do their job, but to keep him safe. They have had some hiccups hookups hiccups along the line. [laughter] of you have read. Helpe all know, the hired leave the ranch. They stray a little bit. But i will tell you right now, i have faith in the total dedication of the minimum women ability this incredible to ensure the integrity of the system in this country. Day think the lesson of the and theeration importance of knowing your. Artners in the Washington Police and secret service were known to me and i was known to them. To have senior face beforehand. That was the case here. When i see your counterparts the generaland manager of this hotel was a man named bill smith. Werector of security saw the photographs of the present coming out. A directed security for number of years. When that happened in that crowd, in those first five minutes, the secret service and the police, he came over to me you did right. He gave me two suites of rooms for a Forward Command post. He knew what we needed. I directed people in there. Most things were hardwired then. Everything we needed. And we had a full command post up and operating within 15 minutes right here and we ran the investigation out of the Forward Command post here. The tenant wilson, everybody else like that, we all knew each other. Even today, with all of the technology that Law Enforcement has, the oldfashioned thing of knowing your counterpart is the lesson of the day, the most important thing. Thank you very much, gentlemen. I think we are going to wrap it up a few minutes early. Maybe a chance to have some oneonone come from conversation. We skimmed the surface of an amazing moment in American History, but our democracy depends on how well we balance lawenforcement in a free society. Inall know those who serve Law Enforcement who tried to protect us so we can enjoy the unique freedom that this country has in no other country has. I want to thank the panel for coming. I want to thank the audience for coming. Will you please if them around of applause . [applause] i took down a few remarks. We will focus on the bad things. Thank you all. Thank you. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] this weekend on American History tv on cspan3, today at 6 p. M. Eastern, author and historian cr gibbs on the black women who worked as soldiers and spies during the civil war. She was the wife of edward bannister, one of the leading africanamerican artists and she became involved in the underground railroad. She was a proud and consistent supporter of the u. S. Colored troops. University of washington professor Margaret Omara on the 1968 president ial election. Hero after hero was slain. John f. Kennedy, Martin Luther king, now robert f kennedy. Kennedys assassination precipitates the broader itional mourning, and now throws the democratic nomination into even more turmoil. Lynne cheney discusses president madisons personality, political problems, and career. Madison was lucky enough to encounter doctors are told him to exercise. What a modern thing to think. It is often recommended today for people who suffer from epilepsy. Sunday, reflecting on the life and career of the 35th president. He was a directed combat veteran. He did believe in a strong military. But he had a much broader conception about what american identity really was. He reached across the aisle. He wants the peace corps in 1961. Fortarted with the alliance progress. He engaged in the space. For a complete schedule, go to cspan. Org. Q a, comparisons between donald trump and andrew jackson. I dont think he represents the positive values that jackson represented. He certainly represent some of the negative values that jackson represented. But i think i would tell President Trump that if he wants to be like andrew jackson, he have to put nation in front of his own personhood, has to put nation in front of his own family, has to put nation in front of his own interests, because that is what jackson did for most of his presidency. Sunday night on cspans q a at 8 00 eastern. Sunday on afterwords, Elizabeth Rosenthal examines howlth care in her book health care became big business and how you can take it back. She is interviewed by dave blumenthal, president of the commonwealth fund. I do wonder if you have thoughts about whether health care is a free market, whether we can solve problems with freeMarket Forces . I think what we have seen as the answer is probably not. In the beginning of the book, i have a somewhat tongueincheek list of the economic rules of the dysfunctional health care market, where if you think of , the market will solve you get too crazy know, aike you lifetime of treatment is preferable to a cure. Im not saying for a second anyone really thinks that. But that is where Market Forces put you right now. Words sundayr night at 9 p. M. Each week, American American takes you to places. Was the home of thomas peter and his wife Martha Parke Custis peter, granddaughter of martha washington. Six generations of the peter family lived in the house until 1984. We take a tour with the curator, who shows us a letter from George Washington, a bomb shelter, and a signed photo of woodrow wilson