Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence And Image 20151003

Susan swain president harry truman liked to refer to his wife, bess as the boss. Family was her number one priority. She had little to say to the media and she spent a good time of her white house years home in missouri. She served as first lady on her own terms. Good evening and welcome. Tonight, the story of the life of the 33rd president of the bess truman. , we are happy to welcome back our guest and his latest book is called the imperial season. Nicole is a history professor and the author of the biography of harry truman. Thank you for being here. Nice to meet you. Where we left off last week was the death of franklin roosevelt. April 12, 1945 the call comes , into harry truman that he is needed. Nicole he is having a drink with his cronies. A lot of politics were accomplished by relaxing and having a more cordial atmosphere. He received a phone call and he said he just knew. The story goes that he ran to get to his car and the white house. He was sworn in two hours later. They went and got her and did not tell her anything. Steve early told her when she got to the white house, the press secretary. It was not a surprise to anyone at the white house at all. They knew roosevelt was going. Susan no one expected it so quickly. 82 days. I think it was an issue of went because you look horrible in the last campaign and he had spoken to the Congress Sitting down and he was ashen and his inaugural address for the first term have to be given to the white house. He was stood up on the north porch. South portico, what am i saying . And the audience was out front. I mean, it was not really a surprise to anyone. I dont know why it was a surprise to president truman. Swain well, two hours later, as we said, in the cabinet room at the white house, harry truman, joined by his family, took the oath of office delivered by chief Justice Harlan stone. How surprised was the nation . Did they knew who harry truman was . Anslover no. I mean, they knew he was the Vice President , they knew his name. He had gotten some acclaim for his truman committee. He was a very admired senator within washington. The general public, whos harry truman . Even his own mother was nervous for him. Swain and what about bess truman . Where was she and how did she get to the white house so quickly and what do we know of her reaction . Seale shes with him there, i guess, in the apartment. I dont know. But, you know, roosevelt it wasnt he didnt admire truman. He approved him for Vice President and thought it was a good idea. So as, you know, nicole says, it was in washington. He was wellknown, but he wasnt a household word, and roosevelt had been in for 13 years, you know . He was just a fixture, like a king or something, and the very idea of his declining, you know, most people didnt really understand that he couldnt walk. Anslover right, he had kept that very well hidden. Swain so the trumans are now the first couple. As you said, the roosevelts had been in the white house for 13 years. Thats the longest stretch any president s ever been in the white house. How did the transition happen there . Seale fourteen vanloads of furniture were taken out of roosevelts things. Because of his condition and also mrs. Roosevelts nature, as you saw in the last show, they liked to have everything around them all the time. They were table people. And they had tables in front of things, and all his things were in easy reach, so there were just thousands of things, pictures, all sorts of things. And imagine what the trumans faced when they went in there with these squares on the wall where pictures had been and the carpets taken up and the floors that jiggled like that. The transition was they only they had a little apartment in town and they took the piano from it. Thats all they moved. Swain did they go immediately to the white house or did they spend some time at blair house . Seale no, no. Anslover no. Well, the trumans thought they could stay in their apartment until they moved into the white house. They offered mrs. Roosevelt as much time as she needed. She took about two weeks, i think. But by then, the trumans realized that securitywise they could not stay in their apartment, so they were living in blair house. And i love the story that, as Eleanor Roosevelt watched them pack up the last of her belongings, she went across the street to blair house to say goodbye to the trumans and she warned bess, watch out for the rats, because she and one of her female friends had seen a rat run across the terrace recently. Seale of course, the white house was full of rats, and now she was at the u. S. Roosevelt. Anslover right, so that was the trumans introduction to their new home. Bess and margaret went over to take a tour, and they were appalled. Swain so she was thrust into the job. Whatever Harry Trumans aspirations may or may not be, she was thrust into the job of did she have any guidance from first lady. The outgoing first lady . Anslover well, her first problem was that Eleanor Roosevelt had probably meaning well set up a press conference for bess, because eleanor had established the tradition, as you talked about last week, about press conferences. And bess truman went to the secretary of labor, frances perkins, and said, do i have to do that . Is it okay to set my own tone . And she was assured that she could do what she wanted. She put a lot of thought into it. And at the last minute, she decided that that was not something she was going to do and she never did hold a press conference. Seale and she sent edith helm. Anslover yes. Seale edith helm was the oldtime white house social secretary, went there with mrs. Woodrow wilson the second. It was the second, right . Anslover correct. Seale with mrs. Woodrow wilson and stayed through all through the roosevelts, all through everything. She was admiral helms wife and lived commuted a limousine from leesburg everyday and she knew everything to do. She knew where the bodies were buried. She knew everything, and she handled the press conference. Swain so the other thing we should establish early on is that the trumans got their support from one another. Anslover they were a partnership 100 . Swain bess, harry, and daughter, margaret. Anslover yes. Swain and, in fact, ushers who worked in the white house described them as the closestknit family that they had seen over the years. Seale yes. Swain now, can you talk a little bit about what you know about how they interrelated with one another and how they supported one another . Seale well, they remind me a a lot of the carters. They were together a lot and they liked to listen to music and they liked to read things, discuss things, and just enjoyed being together. And they were margaret and the president were musical. And so they liked to listen to records and stuff like that, the same with the carters did. And it was very much the same thing, i think. Its just intimate, personal upstairs, how they lived. Swain well, were going to, as we do in this program, then go back in time and tell you a bit of the biography of this woman who came to serve as first lady. Before we do that, let me tell you how you can be involved in the program. If youve been watching our series, you know one of the things that makes us special and interesting are your comments. And theres three ways you can do that. One is by phone. Well put the phone numbers on the screen and you can dial in throughout the program with your question or comment. You can also tweet us, firstladies is our twitter handle. And we have a conversation already underway at the cspan facebook page, and youll see a photograph of the trumans, and you could post a question there, and well try to work in as many of those as we can. So thanks for your participation, and ask us some good questions today, because there are two good guests at the table. Well, one thing you should know is that their house, which is in anslover independence. Swain independence, missouri, how far is that away from a major city . Anslover ten miles from kansas city. Seale kansas city. Swain and it is a national site, and its run by the National Park service. It has been closed to cameras for more than 30 years as a policy. Youre looking at pictures of it on the screen. But the park service was willing to open it up to cspan for this series, also with the encouragement of the trumans grandson, Clifton Truman daniel. And throughout this program, you will see inside some tours given by mr. Daniel that helps us understand the people that his grandparents were. Lets begin with a tour of the home in independence. begin video clip Clifton Truman daniel, grandchild we are on the back porch of my grandparents home in independence, missouri. This is the way we came in. This is the way family came into the house, through the kitchen door. Came into the kitchen, and the first place i always headed was back into the pantry. And i dont see the tin, but there was always a tin in here on one of the shelves of a nice round tin filled with brownies. And i always made sure that that tin was in here before i went anywhere else in the house. So once id made sure that the brownies were in the tin, the next stop had to be my grandfathers study, because whenever you came into the house he didnt meet us at the airport as he got older, but once you came into the house, you had to stop here and say hi to grandpa. And this is where you found him most of the time, as he was getting older and i was getting older. If i wanted to talk to grandpa, thats where i looked, because he was always reading. And my grandmother and my mother sat in those chairs and often read in there with them. And apparently my grandmother and my mother always used to start fights, and my grandfather would read down to the end of the page, mark his place with his finger, and look up and try to decide whether or not the fight was escalating to the point that he needed to get out of the room and if he decided , that everything was okay, he would go to the next page and read down and then check again. Sometimes he left sometimes he , stayed. [laughter] and this is the formal dining room. This is where we ate the evening meal every day. We had breakfast in the kitchen, a sandwich or something for lunch, but this is where we ate all formal dinner meals, was in this dining room. And my grandmother sat at that end of the table was where she sat, closest to the kitchen, i think. So if we go through here, were in the center of the house in foyer. And youll notice that the biggest portrait in the house is that of my late mother, Margaret Truman daniel. She was their only child and only conceived after my grandmother suffered two miscarriages. My grandmother was 39 when she was born. So she was very precious to my grandparents. And they were very close Little Family unit. My grandfather kind of spoiled her. My grandmother was more the disciplinarian, but the three of them were very, very tight as a family, because she was their only child. And if we go through this way, we are in the living room. And this chair was where my grandmother later in her life, this is where she did her reading. After my grandfather passed away, this is often where my grandmother sat, and she read murder mysteries. She loved murder mysteries. And she had stacks of them on either side of her chair. She would have an in stack over here, books that she hadnt read yet, and an out stack over here. And she would just read and put them down, and they would be donated or put on the shelf. But this is where she spent a lot of her time. She gave a lot of those cast off murder mysteries to my mother, who did the same thing, read with stacks on either side of her chair, and mom, of course, eventually became a mystery writer. end video clip swain so you see the house in independence, missouri, that was the house that the trumans lived in throughout their married life, but lets go back even farther. How did they meet . Anslover they met when they were about 5 years old in sunday school. And im not sure whether bess distinctly remembers it, but harry always spoke of the girl with the beautiful blue eyes and the long golden curls, and he claims that he fell in love with her that day. And as far as he know, he never did look at another woman. Swain so it was a lifelong love affair for the trumans. And they had a very different lifestyle, very different kind of backgrounds. Can you tell us a bit about the Wallace Family that Elizabeth Wallace came from, bess wallace came from, and what Harry Trumans early years were like . Seale well, her family owned a store in town and manufactured a flower of queen of the harvest or queen of the harvest. Anslover queen of the pantry. Seale queen of the pantry flower, and they were considered a little more upscale than the trumans, who farmed other peoples land. There was a truman farm, but, in fact, the land some of the land they farmed was mrs. Wallace is, besss mother. And so she there was that difference, and that difference surfaced all during their lives and always did. Swain in what way . Seale well, let me read you this letter here, written while he was president , and june the 29th, 1949, theyre living in the playhouse. And hes writing to vest. To bess. Thirty years i hoped to make you a happy wife and a happy mother. Did i . I dont know. All i can say is ive tried. There is no one in the world anyway who could look down on you or your daughter. There is no one in the world who could look down on you or your daughter. Th. At means much to me, but ive that means much to me. But ivenever cared for social position or rank for myself, except to see that these dear to me those dear to me were not made to suffer for my shortcomings. This is the president of the United States still feeling that way, and it comes, wouldnt you say, nicole, it comes through his letters to her, almost an apology . Swain never felt good enough, in other words . Anslover well, and i think part of that keep in mind, even when he writes this letter, her mother is still living with them. Thats her mothers house that they move into. They never have their own marital home, and then her mother lives in blair house or the white house with them a lot of the time. And so its thought that that was part of bess wallaces hesitation for accepting harry truman, because her mother didnt approve. Swain and never really thought well of her soninlaw . Anslover not really. Swain even when he became president of the United States . Seale no, apparently not. Apparently she never anslover but he never said a negative word. Upon her death, he wrote a lovely piece in his memoirs about, i dont understand motherinlaw jokes, because ive had such a great one. So it wasnt acceptable. Seale she died in the white house. Anslover she did die in the white house. Seale because he sent a note to the chief usher, and he said, mother wallace has died. Make arrangements for us to return to independence. Swain well, were going to return to independence and learn a little bit more through their eyes of the story of how harry and bess met. begin video clip Clifton Truman daniel when my grandfather visited independence, which is 26 miles from where he lived at the time in grandview this is in 1910 he often stayed across the street at the noland house, which is where his aunt and his two cousins lived. And one afternoon, he was over there with his cousins, with the family, and his aunt brought in a cake plate that my greatgrandmother, madge wallace, madge gates wallace, had hed given her a cake, and mrs. Noland had cleaned the cake plate and was asking if anybody would take it back over. And my grandfather moved with what my mother once described as something approaching the speed of light and grabbed the cake plate and ran over here and rang the bell on the front door in the hope, of course, that my grandmother would answer the door, and she did. And she invited him in. And thats the beginning of their formal courtship in 1910. They first met in sunday school when my grandmother was 5 and my grandfather was six. They were baptists. My grandfathers family were baptists, but the presbyterian church, First Presbyterian church down the street here, had a very good sunday school, and thats what my grandmother my greatgrandmother truman was most interested in, was a good sunday school. So she took grandpa over there one day to talk to the reverend. And as she was talking, sunday school was in session, and as my greatgrandmother was talking to the reverend, my grandfather noticed this little girl sitting in sunday school class with what he described as beautiful blue eyes and long golden curls. And he sort of fell in love with her right then and there and, as far as i know, as far as anybody knows, never looked at another woman. end video clip swain and theres the story of the courtship through the grandson that is the progeny of it. Seale isnt that midwestern architecture great . Swain the other thing thats interesting is that their courtship lasted many years. Seale yeah. Swain he had businesses. He went off to war. So how long did it take before they got married . Anslover well, he first kind of unofficially proposed in about 1913, after their courtship starts in 1910, and she didnt write him a letter back, but you can tell from his second letter to her, after he says, if i bought a ring, would you wear it on your lefthand . No answer, but she agrees to still be friends with him. They keep courting, and then they get close to a formal engagement, and then world war i intervenes. So thats why its delayed even farther. Swain what was Harry Trumans role in world war i . How much danger was he in . Anslover great danger. He was in combat at the front, leading his men. Swain and writing to bess all the time. Anslover and writing to bess and carrying her picture with him every day. Seale it meant everything to him, his military service, and i think one has to realize that to see how he ran the presidency. He was a nononsense organized men. Less but was not. But he was. Things ran this way. He got things in shape, and he stayed in the reserves. And he enjoyed the company of men. It wasnt that he sought out the company of women, but he got you know, he was in the masons. He was a mason. He was a while he was president , went to masonic events. He then retained this interest in the military and military people. It had a profound effect on his life. Swain well, its time to begin bringing in our callers. Were going to start with gary whos in independence, missouri. So you grew up or youre living in the trumans home town. How has that informed your opinion of them . Very highly of truman. In fact, i live just a couple doors down from him, so everywhere we look, we see truman. And, you know, the more and more the years go by, i think just as much as the American Public would like to see somebody truman back in the white house. They really we really appreciate him, as well, here. Swain and do you have a question for our guests . Gary i do. I know bess had a very low profile or wanted a low profile being first lady, but i was wondering how the press responded to her, especially on the heels of eleanor being very visible and open in her Communication Style . And did harry have any concerns or desires for her to be out in the public more . Anslover well, first of all, ill take the first part of your question, if thats okay, about how the press responded . At first, they were sort of clamoring to get more information and they were very aggressive and calling her secretaries and asking where she was going to go and what she was going to wear, and then its not that bess wouldnt speak to people she would invite the , newspaper women, because in those days, largely women journalists cover the first ladies. She would invite them over for things like teas or she would go to their luncheons, but she would insist on it all being off the record. So they did get to know bess truman a little bit, and they understood that she wasnt trying to do this out of spite. She was just a private person and wished for a private family life. Swain im going to wait for the other question until we get just a little farther into the story, because weve just gotten them married. So how were their early years . When he came back from military service, did he go into the private sector or immediately into public life . Anslover he runs a store in kansas city for a while, a Mens Clothing store with his good friend, eddie jacobson. Swain and then forever was referred to as the haberdasher . Anslover correct. Seale forever. Anslover and thats where he gets into some debt, which he did insist on paying off, and he eventually does pay it off. Hes still involved in the family farm. Hes trying to do all of these things to make himself more and , he does become interested in public life at that time. Swain and they were living as a couple in the house we just saw with mrs. Wallace . Anslover well, not just mrs. Wallace, but her brothers and their wives, as well. Swain we missed a very important part of the story. What happened to mr. Wallace . Anslover oh, mr. Wallace committed suicide when bess was and in those days, huge scandal. 18. A great stigma on the family. Shattered her mother and this , really explains why bess wants to keep her family life private. She saw how this shattered her mother. She wants to shield her mother, she wants to shield her brothers from having the press dig through her Family History and bring that up again. Seale well, it was a terrible thing for everyone. Nobody ever understood why he did it. She left right after the funeral with the children for colorado and lived there for a year and then came back and moved into the house with her mother, with the children. Swain steven is up next in louisville. Hi, steven. Stephen how are you doing this evening . Swain good, thank you. Stephen well, actually, i had a i was thinking of a few comments, but i know one of which i know you were talking about the suicide of besss father in 1903, and it made me think of the reason why her partnership with harry truman, like the gentleman was talking about before, it seemed like they had more of an equal partnership, which is surely unusual in that day and time. And i think the reason why was because she had realized that her parents marriage, there was something lacking in that. I think i had kind of recalled that she sort of Margaret Truman was saying that she sort of went back and forth with that, bess did over the years, and that thats sort of the reason they had such a close partnership. But i know something else. I dont know if you all discuss this or not i know the , trumans were the first to ever host the first integrated inauguration in inaugural ball in 1949. And i was just curious about and when we were talking about womens rights, for instance if bess what she thought about feminism because i know , that in the early 80s, katie lockham heim, or Something Like that, sent her an article on the feminist movement, and whether she would have been for the era, but also besss opinions about civil rights for black people. Swain ok. Stephen i know her husband had often used derogatory terms, but he also was the one who really set the course for the modern civil rights movement, with in 1948. Swain ok, thank you. Giving us lots to work with there. How about her views of feminism . Anslover bess certainly would not have called herself a feminist, but she did believe that her marriage was a partnership. But she did once famously say that a politicians his wifes job was to sit there, be quiet, and make sure her hat was on straight. But she would give him, as they would have called it, the dickens if he didnt consult her on any major decision, including the marshall plan, nato, any of those things. Swain well, heres a question from holly han, who asks, why ss the boss . Ll be it seems to me he did what he wanted. Bess didnt want him to be roosevelts running mate, she writes, and really didnt like being the first lady. Anslover i wouldnt say that harry did what he wanted. Seale just an affection. Anslover it was a partnership. Seale kind of a joke, dont you think . Anslover right. Seale but i wouldnt dont think we ought to think of partnerships in marriage as anything new in that time. That goes back forever and ever and ever, so, i mean swain as weve learned throughout this series. well, we had. I mean, this is part of what marriage is all about. And ms. Truman grew up, well, 1903, her father died. She was 18, as nicole said. And she was in a period of very strong feminism. The Suffragette Movement started she obviously was in there, and then she obviously was in there, and there are different layers, the feminism. Anslover absolutely. One of besss best friends was a wellknown female journalist who went on all sorts of adventures, and bess cheered her on every step of the way. And she was very supportive of margaret having a career. Seale very, yeah. Anslover so its just different from other peoples notions of feminism. Swain do you know how she got the nickname, the boss . Anslover well, harry started calling her that in the mid1930s, we think, because she was very organized with his Senate Office. And she didnt mind the nickname until he introduced her during the 1948 campaign he introduced her as the boss and boss,et as the boss and the reason that irritated bess so much, she thought people were going to think margaret was spoiled. Swain now, there was a controversy when she worked in his Senate Office, because he paid her salary. How did they handle that . Anslover the same way they did, straightforward. They said, other people did it, bess did the work, this is just people trying to start problems. And they knew that people would try to start problems. Seale yeah. Anslover but it was an okay thing to do. Swain so their first time in the white house, bess said to the media, you dont really need to know who i am. Im not the president , decides not to have the press conferences. We have one of the very few pieces of film available of bess truman as first lady, and this is a pretty famous one were going to show right now. One of her first press events was the christening of airplanes, both an army and a navy airplane, at national airport, which is also interesting to see. We all fly there today, and you can see how really open it was at the time. This event didnt exactly go as planned, and you will see why. Were going to watch next. begin video clip bess truman it gives me great pleasure to christen these two hospital airplanes, whose purchase has been made possible by war bonds subscribed and sold by the ladies of Congressional Club. In setting forth these planes on their errands of mercy, we send with them our love and a sincere desire that the comfort and solace derived from them by our fighting men will let them know that we stand firmly behind them wherever they are. Tv announcer at the national airport, ambulances with wings, one each for navy and army, ready to be christened by mrs. Harry s truman, who with her daughter margaret will do the honors in her first public appearance. But mrs. Truman is in for a surprise. By an oversight, the champagne bottle, unlike this one, hasnt been properly prepared, etched to break the glass on impact, and glass cutting is behind successful christenings like these. Now mrs. Truman, unaware that her bottle is not prepared sounds of bottle hitting plane, laughter refusing to be rattled, the new first lady joins in the crowds laughter. Lets see how her military aide meets the crisis. [laughter] but to the navy, forewarned is forearmed. Here, armed means a hammer. Watch it just under the airplanes nose. And even the hammer misses on the first try. Alls well that ends well. Despite the stubborn bottle, mrs. Truman sends off the hospital planes with her blessing. end video clip swain was not happy with that. Her little speech was charming. She does not want people to laugh at her. Seale she had been a senators wife, acting in the Congressional Club and acted with things in town and she knew exactly what to do when she got to the white house. That bears discussion, too. They were among the most formal entertainers the white house had ever had. Swain next is a call from susan in berwick, pennsylvania. Susan, youre on the air. Susan hello, i just want to swain yes, were listening susan. Susan ok, i just wanted to mention that i enjoy the series greatly. Its the best thing thats on television. Seale well, thanks so much. Susan another thing, i was a few years ago, i read a book by Margaret Truman about bess. And i was wondering, in the book, it had a lot of the letters and so forth. I was wondering if those are still you know, put together, compiled in a book, or anything like that, or what other information that we could read about bess and harry truman, as well as margaret . Seale was the book called dear bess . Susan oh, i believe i dont know. It was seale theyre letters from the president to ms. Truman. Susan no, no, it wasnt. This was written by margaret herself. Anslover by margaret, where she uses those letters. Susan it was like a diary. anslover yes. It was almost like a diary. But it was very informative, because before that, before i read that, i did not ever see anything in a library or anything about bess truman. Go ahead, dear. Anslover theres not a lot of scholarly work certainly on bess truman. A lot of what we have are the work by margaret and then her grandson, who we saw in the video, compiled some letters. But we use those letters theyre in the Truman Library in independence, and theyre available for people to use to do research. And any book that you read on harry truman is going to talk about those letters and use them as a reference but, bill, do you , want to say why we dont have the letters from bess . Seale well, she burned them. Anslover she threw them in the fire. Seale truman came upon here when she was doing this, and he said, but dont do that. Think of history. She said, i am. She mrs. Washington, mrs. Harding, and mrs. Truman are the three first ladies who burned their letters, and what a loss it is. Anslover were fortunate that she didnt burn the letters from harry, at least. She left us those but she did , not want her words recorded. She was it was a partnership, but she was a silent partner. Swain well, on that note, mike brennan asks you on it says, a question for dr. Anslover. I am enjoying your book. How did the bessharry dynamic inform his presidency . Anslover greatly, because he asked her before he did pretty much anything theres a little bit of controversy over whether he consulted her about dropping the atomic bomb, and the story has it from some sources that he didnt consult bess about that, but be sure that he consulted her about everything else. So their dynamic was very important, and you can see his spirits got lower when she was home in missouri. And he just didnt function with quite as much vigor when bess wasnt near. So thanks for the question, mike. Seale well, he was away at potsdam when it was dropped, and she was in independence. And i dont know. It was such a scary thing. I mean, even roosevelt, you know, trembled at the thought. Swain she spent quite a bit of time in independence. Seale an awful lot. She was gone a lot of the time. Swain can you think of any other first ladies that spent so much time away from the white house . Seale no, i really cant. Anslover no. Seale but washington had the season, you know . She was always there for the december to spring or lent season in washington, where you had five or four official white house dinners, and she presided over those with great panache, all good reviews. Swain we had a question earlier about how harry truman might have felt about his wifes aversion to being in the public. And i found one source on that, and it is carl anthonys book on first ladies. And i wanted to read a little bit to you and to the audience about this and the reaction. He writes, harry was becoming frustrated with besss refusal to play a public role. He was perhaps the first president to take an active interest in the first ladyships history, stating that Abigail Adams would have made a better president than her husband and that mary lincoln was unjustly criticized. He later wrote, i hope someday someone will take time to evaluate the true role of the wife of the president and to assess the many burdens she has to bear and the contributions she makes. attempting to coax bess into an active role, he wrote her several months before fdr died. Quote, the president told me that mrs. R was a very timid woman who wouldnt go to political meetings or make any speeches when he first ran for governor of new york. Then he said, now she talks all the time. It didnt work. Bess knew her first lady history, too. Im not the one elected, she snapped. I have nothing to say to the public. Asked which predecessor she most identified with, bess chose the obscure and extremely private elizabeth monroe, who, of course, followed the legendary dolley madison. Do you have anything to add to that . Disagree with anything he said . Anslover no, i dont disagree with that at all. I was looking at that letter myself the other day because harry was strongly hinting that he would like bess to be a little bit more involved, and she put her foot down. And it wasnt that she didnt want to be involved in his life or his decisions, she just didnt need to do so publicly. Seale or the extra, she did what she had to do. She had the parties, the receptions for the military. She did those kind of things. But the extras, mrs. Roosevelt, you know, had a column and this one had that she didnt she just wasnt going to do that. That was her life. Anslover right. Seale and it maybe she was more of a feminist than any of them. [laughter] anslover perhaps. She wasnt going to do what she was told. Seale yeah. Swain well, heres a different take. And this is from Margaret Truman. And she wrote, more and more, she began to feel that the presidency had virtually dissolved the Political Partnership that had been at the heart of her relationship with her husband for so many years. Anslover i like the way that Margaret Truman explains it, because she explains it, when harry was in the senate, he had time to come home in the evening and talk things out with bess, and they could discuss it over their oldfashioneds, which they liked to have in the evening. But when he became president , your decisions multiply rapidly, and its not that he didnt want to consult her, he did not have time to consult her on every little thing. And she grew frustrated at first, but seale she missed it. Anslover she came around. Swain well, harry truman had a lot of momentous things to discuss and decisions to make. We have just a few of the highlights of his first term in the white house, including, of course, ve day, victory in europe day, the end of world war ii in europe, and the potsdam conference. Seale atomic bomb. Swain the dropping of the atomic bomb, and subsequently the end of world war ii with japan. The cia established, israel officially recognized, as you, bill seale, mentioned earlier, the integration of the military, and the marshall plan, some of the Big Decisions he had before him. You referenced earlier that he did not share the atomic bomb decision. Anslover theres a little bit of dispute about that. I dont think he probably had time to. Bess, we think, knew about the creation of the atomic bomb, but whether he had time to get in touch with her before giving the order, probably not. Like bill said, he is not home. Hes over meeting with stalin across the world. Swain just another example of some of those letters that harry wrote to bess, you talked about how lonely he was at the potsdam conference in berlin in 1945. Heres some of what he wrote to her one time. Dear bess, it made me terribly homesick when i talked with you yesterday morning. Stalin and molotov are coming to seem me at 11 00 this morning. I like stolen. Stalin. Hes straightforward, knows what he wants, and will compromise where he cant get it. If i come out of this one whole, there will be nothing to worry over until the end of the jap war. Kiss margie. Lots of love to you. What do we learn about truman from that . Seale a little bit of naivete at the beginning, yes. He had been taken into nothing by roosevelt. And youre talking about august, the potsdam conference, and he was in in, what, in april . Anslover he is in april. Potsdam in and he drops the bomb july. In august. Seale uhhuh, august, so he. Anslover it was a few months. Seale yeah, but hes still you know, he says to her later than this that hes trying to get the departments in order to give them weeding out the people he doesnt want, bringing in new ones, and then he will sit down and he will tell them exactly what he wants done. And that is how he handled it. Anslover it is, i think that letter, thats one other thing that tells us. He makes a straightforward assessment of stalin. I like it. He doesnt spend two pages going on and on about politics. But it also shows us that even though this is one of his shorter letters, hes taking time to tell bess what hes discovered. Hes filling her in on these important events and he misses , her. Swain i want to answer one question from twitter. Denny asks, why does the park service not open the truman house to the public . They do open the truman house. You can go visit it. It hasnt been open to Television Cameras for preservation purposes for that amount of time. So you can go if you want. I could go as a private citizen and visit it, but we had permission to bring cameras in for the first time in a long time, and we appreciate their help with that. Early on in her term and let me preface this. Ive got two different folks on facebook who are asking about the trumans and their attitude toward Race Relations. Curt herner writes, one of my favorite harry and bess stories oh, no, thats the wrong one. Thats about burning letters. Asking about whether or not he integrated the military. And then later on, a viewer writes, suggesting that the in several books about the trumans, ive read that mrs. Truman and her mother, mrs. Wallace, were very prejudiced against africanamericans and jews. She had an issue really early on in a dar invitation that involved africanamerican congressman Adam Clayton Powell. So with that as our launching pad for the subject of the trumans and race, tell us what your scholarship has led you to believe. Anslover well, congressman powell was upset because the daughters of the American Revolution had invited bess to a tea and he was offended because they would not let africanamerican musicians perform in Constitution Hall. And he thought that bess truman should refuse to attend a tea by an organization who had that policy. And bess truman wrote a public letter saying, i certainly dont approve of this sort of racial prejudice, i dont believe that should be in the arts at all, but we cannot stop a private organization from making their own policies. And she said, ive already accepted the invitation, so im not going to back out now. And so she went. And Adam Clayton Powell responded by calling her the last lady of the land, which did not go over well with the president. Seale but the whole thing must have infuriated the president , because marian anderson, the coloratura singer, the same thing had happened with Constitution Hall wouldnt take her. Of course, now theyd taken james brown and anyway, they wouldnt. And so it was performed at the lincoln memorial. They knew that. The trumans near that. Adam Clayton Powell knew that. Anslover the issue should have been settled. Seale i think the issue was to get in the newspapers mainly against the trumans and im sure , the president had some private words on that one. Anslover well, he never allowed powell in the white house again. Swain so that was one incident. But what about their larger record on Race Relations and how history should see that . Anslover first of all, you have to put the trumans in context of their times. Seale absolutely. Anslover and where they grew up and understand that many people will talk about how truman used derogatory terms in his letters, and thats absolutely true, and that is certainly not ok but , thats how people spoke at the time. Seale thats how they talk. Anslover and harry truman did a remarkable job at separating his public and private sphere, because even though, you know, he also famously said that he didnt want margaret to marry an africanamerican, but at the same time, he desegregates the military, even though its politically unpopular. He does a lot for antilynching. He helps to establish israel. So hes a man who, you know, doesnt let his personal opinions affect his policy. Seale he makes a pretty poor showing as a racist in his actions. [laughter] anslover thats a good way to put it. Seale but i think youve got to for that era, youve got to separate it. On your last show with ms. Roosevelt, when she referred to japanese as japs, my japanese friends dont like that term, but she did during the war and no one thought a thing of it at the time. I guess the emperor did, if he heard it, but they its the way people talked. Anslover right. Swain well, on this note, Archie Jackson asks us on facebook, did bess have anything to do with truman integrating the military . We often talk about the power of roosevelts wife, but never about trumans wife. Do we know if she had any influence on that decision . Anslover oh, i dont think that she was probably pushing him to do it, but she certainly wouldnt have objected to it in any way that i can see. She would have probably thought it was the right thing to do. She had a great sympathy for servicemen. She was lonely when harry was over in world war i. She thought all servicemen should be treated equally. Swain marty is watching us in columbus, ohio, and is on next. Hi, marty. Marty hi i have a question. , actually, i went to visit the museum in independence, missouri, but i wondered, after mr. Truman died, did bess live there by herself . Or did margaret end up moving in with her . And the other thing is, i also worked for paul tibbets for a while, who was involved with the enola gay and dropped the bomb on hiroshima. And, you know, he never really wanted to talk about that too much and he never really liked what he had to do. He did it because he had to do it. Did truman kind of have the same feeling . Seale well, all i can say to that is, who wouldnt . You know, the thought of killing hundreds of thousands of people, i dont think theres anything written about it. He had to stop the war. I mean, it was a religious. Anslover it was a military decision. Seale yeah. Anslover and in my opinion, any president would have done the same thing, because no president can defend losing more american lives. Seale no, and it was not going to stop. I mean, it was just not going to stop, the japanese part of it. Anslover right. Seale and thats how we would answer to that, i guess, to the caller. Anslover theres a great clip. Harry truman spent a lot of time in his library after he moved out of the white house, and he would speak to group of schoolchildren, and that was often one of the questions he was asked. Kids wanted to know and truman would very forcefully defend his decision to drop the atomic bomb and explain it to elementary schoolchildren. Seale no one really blamed him for that as a personal thing. Anslover apparently not at the time, no. Swain regina crumkey on twitter asks, with bess in missouri, did she hold social functions and galas . You mentioned early on that they opened the of 1946 social season in washington. This was significant, because it had been ended during the war. Seale yes, there had been no formal entertaining at the white house during the war. Swain now, this doesnt seem like it would be in the truman personal style to like all of this falderal. Seale president truman and one of the most interesting things about him to me is he identified the president , like his private life, is Something Different from him and something bigger than him that he was representing. And he nobody had better insult the office in his president. So when the social season was revived after all these years, they were sticklers for having it exactly as it had been just i mean, black tie, black tie, evening clothes, and all that. And these dinners, the chief usher, mr. West, in his memoir says the white house had never been so formal and so devoted to diplomatic precedent as it was under the trumans. Everything was done exactly as they it had been really before the roosevelts. Swain but ironically, they only got one social season because seale yeah, they only got one, because they had to move to the they did entertain at the mayflower from time to time. But they had to move out, you know. Swain and well tell the story of their major renovation. Almost every president weve talked about and first lady has done some renovation. Nothing like the trumans, and well tell that story a little bit later. But one thing that they did do to the white house, i believe, in the first term was the addition of the balcony. Seale yes. Swain and that its today always referred to as the truman balcony. Tell us about the concept of it and how hard it was for that to get through here. Seale it was done basically for spite. He had had a west wing prepared that help the big staff. Roosevelts staff was just stuffed in there, even though roosevelt had doubled the west wing. So truman wanted to build down 17th street a long addition to a large auditorium for press press press conferences. Well, it passed through congress, and then the congress rescinded it, and he was as mad as he could be. And the Reason Congress did, they said he was defacing the white house. Well, so he got in his head to build a porch on the south side of the white house where there was no upstairs access to a porch of anything. And he did it on his own, and he took it out of the household budget. He didnt ask congress or anyone. He did get an important architect he respected, Williams Adams delano, who was around the white house a lot, and they built the balcony and it is the , truman balcony, because thats what he did. Swain and once finished, how did they use it . Seale oh, they used it all the time like a patio. And practically every president after that wrote him a letter saying the one thing im glad you did to this house is add the truman balcony, because it was so great. They liked to sit on it. Swain access it off of their private space . Seale off of the oval room, they now call the yellow oval room upstairs, kind of a parlor thing. Swain and whats the view from there . Seale oh, its stunning, absolutely magnificent, with the you know, the Jefferson Memorial ahead that roosevelt built and then the washington monument, which should be where the Jefferson Memorial is, over here. And washington is just at your feet with its height limitations, you know, and its just the carpet. Its a beautiful, beautiful view. The film footage of when you do the fords, of the fords during the centennial, shows the showing the view from that is just beautiful, with Queen Elizabeth there and everything. Swain what can you tell the audience about the trumans private life in the white house, especially during their first term, especially with all these momentous things going on . Anslover well, they certainly didnt get much time to relax. It is very busy and as weve , talked about, bess does spend a lot of time traveling back and forth to independence. Now, thats not just her being spiteful. She still feels that she has to be the caretaker for her mother, who suffers seale two mothers. Anslover two mothers. Trumans mother is still alive during his early years of the white house. They have Family Business to take care of. When they are in the white house together, they would do the same things that they did at home. They read they enjoy an evening , cocktail they liked to listen , to music and they chat with , margaret. Youre talking about the truman balcony and how they used it, they used it the same way they used their porch in independence, as a time to spend time together. Swain now, one of the things we often talk about is this first lady on their image and how they might have influenced, and were seeing this more and more as the years progress, american style and culture. Was bess truman known for that . Anslover well, she certainly didnt dress poorly or unfashionably. I dont think she was mocked for her fashion sense. Today, i mean, Jackie Kennedy really sets the tone, and so when we look at the first ladies that come before her, we dont think about them having this wonderful fashion sense. But bess was a stylish lady. And her High School Friends always spoke about how she knew the latest fashions, and she took pride in her appearance, and she liked to go shopping, just like many women. Seale remember what truman said about her . She looks just like a woman her age ought to look. Anslover yes, he thought she was appropriate and sensible, and margaret thought so, too. Swain we are going to visit the truman president ial library in independence, missouri, and learn more about bess trumans style. begin video clip tammy williams, archivist, truman president ial museum and library in were at the harry s Truman Library in independence, missouri. And were going into one of our collection storage spaces, where we have artifacts and hats and clothes, jewelry related to mrs. Trumans time in the white house. Bess always had an excellent sense of style even when she was , a young woman, one of her friends noted that she always wore more stylish clothes or wore clothes more stylishly than many of her friends did. This is a hat that was made by one of bess trumans favorite designers in washington, d. C. Her name was madam agasta. Its got brown egret feather on it. Its made of brown wool felt. She wore this hat when princess elizabeth and her husband, prince phillip, came to the United States in october of 1951. And thats one of the nice things about working here in the library, is that we have a lot of artifacts and photos and documents, and you can put the whole thing together and tell all of the story all together, which goes along with one of the hats that we have over here. This is a hat that we didnt originally know very much about. We had no idea what event she might have worn it at, and its quite a hat. In the process of going through mrs. Trumans papers, we located a letter that she had written. This is a handwritten draft of a letter that she would have given to her secretary to type. She says, i am simply delighted with my hat i love that part. She says, its the most attractive one i have seen all spring, and i am happy it is mine. She says, i wore it at one of the most important occasions, when Queen Juliana was here, the day she presented the carillon to the nation and had many pleasant things said about it. And so when we read that letter, we realized we have photos of that event so we can look back at that event and know what hat she wore. And we looked through the photos and found one, a good one of her where you can see what shes wearing, and then we took the photo down and compared it to some of the hats in our collection and, lo and behold, realized we had this hat. So, once again, its nice to connect the document to the photo to the artifact and be able to tell that whole story all together. Another interesting part of bess is that she was a very private person. And this is a dress that kind of demonstrates that back. This is a dress that she wore in 1952 to the jeffersonjackson day dinner. That was the dinner where president truman officially announced to the people that he was not going to run for president in 1952. He had the opportunity to do that, but he chose not to. And so it was an important event for bess. It signaled she wasnt going to be living in washington, d. C. , after 1953. She was going to get to come home to independence. And we have a number of photos of her wearing this dress. We didnt originally have this dress. Bess donated this dress to her church bazaar, and someone at the bazaar bought it, realized what it was, and then turned around and donated it to the library. But that kind of signals to people how bess felt about her time in the white house, not that she didnt necessarily like it, but it wasnt something that defined her, something that was really important to her, and she could just give things away. end video clip seale two days that dinner was two days after they moved back into the white house. And speaking of clothing, the president was a natty, natty sort of Adolphe Menjou dresser. I mean, he was pure palm beach. [laughter] swain well, that was the haberdasher, right . Seale yes. Anslover oh, yes. Seale he had gorgeous taste in clothes, modern, very modern and kind of young. Swain and was a trim man, wore them well. Seale he was a trim man. He was in shape, and he, you know, walk like a madman. I mean, the his whole military, whatever they call it, and he wore doublecolored shoes and really goodlooking everything, pressed and just fine. He was very aware of clothes himself. Anslover i think natty is an excellent word to describe it. Swain on twitter, t4vista asked, did the first lady have many women friends . Anslover absolutely, one of besss probably highlights of her early days in the white house, she invited in 1946 her entire bridge club from independence to come out and spend a long weekend. And this is the type of thing bess was doing it for herself and for her friends to have a good time, but it was the sort of thing that played very well in the press, too, because her women friends were so excited to be there, and she showed them the town. She took them out to lunches and to musicals and shopping, and they so enjoyed the white house. Besss women friends were very, very dear to her, and she kept many of her friendships throughout her entire life. Swain heres pat in fenton, mississippi. Youre on the air. Pat fenton, michigan. swain ah, hi, fenton, michigan. Sorry. Part of the seale they didnt sound very mississippi. Swain yeah, doesnt sound mississippi. Pat we had the pleasure of going to independence and touring the house, and they had you go in through the backdoor, just like the family, and seeing the president ial library, which we really enjoyed. But my question is about the trumans financial circumstances. When you mentioned that bess worked in his Senate Office and it was quite controversial that she was paid, perhaps they needed the money, and certainly the president was the reason that congress has established a pension for retiring president s. And i wonder if their financial circumstances might have led them not to do as much entertaining and so forth as previous president s who had their own budgets. Anslover absolutely, financial reasons were why he does put bess on the payroll. Margaret truman always described her mother as a pennypincher, but margaret also admitted it was a good thing she did. The finances were often very tight. And it was somewhat ironic for trumans second term, no one had expected the democrats to win and that pesky congress had approved a bill that would double the president s salary, so imagine their dismay when that swain to what . Anslover from 50,000 i think to 100,000, which is a huge leap. And so imagine their dismay when harry truman received that money, instead. But as the caller also mentioned, president s did not have pensions before truman. They were just kind of put out. They didnt really even have security. Swain well take another call. This is from jose in philadelphia. Hi, jose. Jose yes, good evening. My question is about the attempt the assassination attempt on president truman. How did that affect trumans family . And what was his political opinion on the puerto rican question . Swain ok, thanks so much. Seale well do you want to do it, nicole . Anslover go ahead. Seale he had definitely favored independence for puerto rico. Thats what was so strange. He had made two important speeches, one to congress and one there, favoring the independence of puerto rico, and this was just, i guess, two killers who came along on november the 1st, 1950, assaulted attempted to run into the blair house and got tangled up in a screen door. And the shooting started. And, of course, a very wonderful Young Secret Service man was killed. And the trumans were both there. They were on their way to arlington cemetery. They were getting dressed to go to a dedication of general, i guess, dills, the english general who died it was in the war and attache in usa and requested to be buried in arlington. They were going to his dedication, and mrs. Truman said, according to Margaret Truman, mrs. Truman said, harry, theyre shooting at our policemen. And so the policemen yelled, get down, get down he stuck his head out the window. It was a pretty messy thing. And the well, the one the assassin who survived was sent to prison, and president carter released him from prison after, what, 40 years or Something Like that . Swain so this was during the second term. Seale and he expressed no regret. Swain and when they were living in the blair house, an explanation we have not yet gotten to, why they spent so much time there. The 1940 election, did bess truman want harry to run for reelection . Anslover she didnt try to stop him. You know, in her heart of hearts, does she want to keep being first lady . No, but, again, this is a partnership. She might have been able to persuade him not to run, but she knew that in his heart of hearts, thats what he believed was best for the country. And so she supported him. Swain so many people would remember the famous Dewey Defeats Truman headline. Seale new york times. Swain you said earlier that everyone was expecting anslover everyone. Swain dewey to win. Ms. Swain why not . Ms. Anslover the economy wasnt reconverting as fast as it could have. Hes liberal. Tired, but not liberal enough for many people. Harry truman could do very little right in 1948, and his own party didnt really support him. It wasnt 100 percent certain he was even going to get the nomination. So what are the issues . He campaigns on a Recalcitrant Congress who wont work with him and wont let him get anything done. And he campaigns on foreign policy. Look what ive done with the marshall plan, look what ive done with the truman doctrine. And this is where one of everyones favorite truman stories comes out. His Vice President ial nominee, alben barkley, tells him on a train to go out there and give em hell, harry. And one of the reporters hears that, and as these things happen, from then on, thats what people yelled at him everywhere. Give em hell, harry. Mr. Seale because he made a crosscountry and, you know, he had done that before, once when the prendergast machine had gotten him elected in missouri, and they fell apart, and he ran again on his own. He did, 1940. And he went out and spoke to people and got in front of courthouses and everything and won it on his own personality. So he must have had enormous personality as a stumper, as they say, on stump speeches. Absolutely. Ms. Anslover he was not a great orator. We dont look at trumans speeches the same way we look at lincolns speeches. But they say that in a small group and small crowds, he could win anyone over, and he did. Ms. Swain how important was the whistlestop tour of the campaign . Ms. Anslover hugely. Mr. Seale it got him elected, brought him to the people. Absolutely. Ms. Swain and what was Media Coverage like at that time . Mr. Seale well, it was radio and print, you know . And movietones, as we saw. Ms. Anslover and they stopped polling. Dewey was so far ahead that they stopped polling a couple weeks before the election actually took place. And thats why their numbers were so off. Ms. Swain and did bess and did margaret campaign with him . Ms. Anslover uhhuh, yep. They spent a lot of time on the train. They were all exhausted and ready to head down to key west after that. Ms. Swain well, we didnt talk about key west. Adrian myers wilbur asks on facebook, i remember visiting key west, florida, and seeing the little white house where the trumans would visit in the winter. I wonder what bess thought of visiting key west. How did they use key west . Mr. Seale well, he used it a lot to go fishing and swimming. And one of the secret servicemen who used to go with him, rex scouten, said he had a little trick he liked to do. He liked to hold you under the water until you were almost dead and then let you get up. But it was mostly men and men things. He liked as i said earlier the company of men, poker and all that stuff. Mrs. Truman didnt go many times. Ms. Anslover no. Mr. Seale but she did go. And, you know, margaret had a public persona. She was kind of easy with the press and things like that. People liked her. Ms. Swain were watching some whats called broll, some footage without sound of the trumans in key west. And it looks like he could relax there. Ms. Anslover he absolutely did. And it also reminded me his fashion sense was always remarked upon when he went down to key west with. Mr. Seale hawaiian shirts. Ms. Anslover flashy shirts. Mr. Seale they also they cut up a lot. They did. I mean, they took movies of him partying around, jumping up and down and carrying on. He just let it go when he was with the masons or with the he went over to alexandria to the big Masonic Building over there, and they introduced him, and he interrupted and said, here, im harry. Ms. Swain and can you imagine a president being this casual today . Mr. Seale he was, but he was in mr. Seale control. Ms. Swain casually in control. Ms. Anslover yes, he was. So harry truman was elected, surprising the press, at least, and the political establishment to his second term, and a busy second term it was. Heres just a list of some of the highlights of the second Truman Administration the establishment of nato; the korean war; that assassination attempt we talked about; and the 22nd amendment to the constitution, following roosevelt, which created president ial term limits. How challenging a time was the second term . The first year was said to be their happiest in the white house. Ms. Anslover they thought here was the chance well, they harry thought here was the chance to be president in his own right. This is when the fair deal starts really kicking off. But then things go horribly wrong, largely because of korea. That shatters the economy. It shatters the peoples faith in him and their willingness to understand. And then he fires macarthur. Mr. Seale yeah, and macarthur made the biggest show out of it on earth. He went and addressed the congress and said, old soldiers never die. They just fade away, and it became a popular song. And it was they through a lot of mud. It was very undignified, really, to tell you the truth, but. Ms. Swain did bess change her approach to first ladyship in the second term . Did she spend more time in the white house, more time in missouri . Ms. Anslover shes still going back and forth a lot. But, again, thats largely because of family issues. They reestablish their partnership. They kind of get over the personal tensions that they had during those early days where shes feeling a little bit left out. They find their rhythm again. And they their union is happier and steadier the second term. Lets take a call from louis ms. Swain lets take a call from louis watching us in los angeles. Hi, louis. ph yes, thank you. What was mrs. Trumans opinion about her Husbands Association about with Tom Prendergast . I know mr. Seale mentioned Tom Prendergast, but what was her thinking and her opinion about Tom Prendergast and associating with president truman . Thank you. Mr. Seale thank you. Its a good question. Ms. Swain who he was, first of all. Mr. Seale he was a political boss in missouri. And he was a kingmaker and his son. Mrs. Trumans family knew him. I mean, he was a prominent person. And i doubt that she thought much of it. I mean, she thought he was probably just fine. Truman says in his letters you see that hes going that way with prendergast, doing what prendergast wants, because thats how he got in office, but he quickly began to splinter off from that. But to answer your question, i dont imagine mrs. Truman thought much of it, because she knew them. Ms. Anslover it was simply the way politics was done in kansas city at that time. Mr. Seale and they were a prominent family, and she the prendergasts were and she knew them. Thank you. Ms. Swain robert is in branson west, missouri. Hi, robert, youre on the air. Robert hello. I was wondering if bess truman ever attended former or future first ladies funerals. Thank you. Mr. Seale gosh, i dont know. Ms. Anslover i know three first ladies attended her funeral, but its a very good question. Ms. Swain certainly some died, because she lived such a long mr. Seale actually, ms. Theodore roosevelt died during his presidency. Ms. Anslover she certainly probably went to mrs. Roosevelts funeral. Mr. Seale i would think so. Ms. Anslover and when did Mamie Eisenhower . Mr. Seale oh, no, late, much later, as did mrs. Franklin roosevelt, but ms. Theodore roosevelt. Ms. Anslover so there really wouldnt have been a huge opportunity. Mr. Seale thats a really interesting question. Ms. Swain jack cutton wants to know, what was bess trumans pet issue . Ms. Anslover dont believe they had any pets. Ms. Swain no, no, pet issue. Mr. Seale i dont think she had one. Ms. Swain favorite issue . So she had no causes . Ms. Anslover no, i dont think so. Well, actually, i take that back. She was interested in health care. She believed she urged harry to increase funding to, i think, the National Institute for health, some sort of research foundation, and you can look at the numbers in his second term. That budget does go up. Mr. Seale well, he proposed universal health care. Ms. Anslover he did. And one of the reasons he was so unpopular. Yeah, a liberal program. I want to tell you about a book, and its my leadin to the question about the best truman portrait, but this book has been published by our partners in this series, the White House Historical association, and it is a collection of biographies of the first ladies of the United States, has all of their official portraits, biographies, of each of them. And as a keepsake for those of you whove been watching the series, you see that little yellow bubble at the bottom. Its listed as a special edition for first ladies influence and image, the cspan original series, so if youre interested in this, it is available on our website at cspan. Org firstladies. And in it, you will find, among all the others, bess trumans official portrait. Her white house portrait was done, and we have a video that explains some of the background about bess trumans official portrait. [video clip] this painting was originally painted as my grandmothers official white house portrait. In the 1960s, Lady Bird Johnson went looking for portraits of first ladies to hang, to rehang in the white house. She thought that was important. And she looked high and low and she could not find my grandmothers official portrait, so she called my grandmother, and she said, mrs. Truman, do you know where that painting is . We cant find it. And my grandmother said, yeah, its on my wall. And mrs. Johnson said, you really shouldnt have that. It belongs in the white house. And my grandmother said, no, thats my painting, its on my wall, and thats where its going to stay. And i think mrs. Johnson tried a couple of more times, so that eventually she gave up and had a copy painted. There are actually two copies made by the artist, greta kempton. And one of them hangs in the Truman Library just down the road and the other is in the white house, but those are the two copies. This is the original portrait. Ms. Swain i dont know who did the portrait. I can look it up for you, but back to the table here, bill. Mr. Seale ok. Ms. Swain we have to tell the story about the renovations of the white house. Mr. Seale ok. Ms. Swain because the trumans, in their almost eight years in the white house, spent less time in that building than any other president. Mr. Seale there you go. You want to do it . Ms. Anslover absolutely. It was falling down. The leg of margarets piano fell through the floor, and the engineers were concerned that the whole thing was going to collapse onto the trumans, essentially. Ms. Swain so what did they do . Mr. Seale well, the trouble started right after pearl harbor, when the corps of army engineers, the old enemies of the white house, came in and did an engineering survey. I talked to some members of the crew, long gone now, but the ceiling in the east room had dropped 40 inches. The rooms so long, 85 feet, you cant tell. He said he walked in there under the plaster, it was but it was considered a fire trap, and they recommended that roosevelt move out. Of course, he wouldnt do it, and he then they said they wanted to paint it camouflage during the war. He wouldnt do that. Well, after the war, when truman was there, the house was kind of empty in the upstairs and the floors jiggled and all that. Roosevelt loved houses that did that. But the plaster would begin to trickle down from the light fixtures. Yeah, and the light fixtures and would and so they decided that they had to get out. So they moved across the street, and great plans were done for redoing the white house. Now, i bet you he consulted with this with mrs. Truman. They wanted to tear it down. That was the easiest thing to do. But George Washington built those walls and truman wouldnt hear of it. He had the house gutted, but the stone walls on the outside never were touched. In fact, they wanted to take a bulldozer in through one of the doors, and they were about to open it up with pickaxes, and he saw them, and he said, stop and they took the bulldozer down and a dump truck down and reassembled them in the cellars of the house to dig the lower cellars. And the house was rebuilt in steel and concrete. Here are your old walls with the brick taken they had a brick backing of three feet. And then is this doing and, anyway, thats a steel frame on the inside, and its eight inches from the original stone walls, and each room is a cage. And when it was finished, it was believed to be bombproof. Well, of course, thats the joke now. And they moved over to blair house, where they lived most of the time. And they loved it. They thought it was beautiful and it still had all the blair things and it had never been decorated or anything like that. Ms. Swain and smaller and more approachable, more. Ms. Anslover absolutely, more intimate. More approachable, more a home. He did definitely consult with bess. She wanted the original structure to remain. But he also consulted with her, because why wasnt this done in their first term . It was falling down then. And bess and harry are both convinced that somehow the press would blame the trumans for bringing down the white house. And so they waited until he was reelected to tackle this project. Ms. Swain did living in the blair house have any positive or negative influence on his presidency . Ms. Anslover it might have allowed him to relax a little bit more. Mr. Seale but he lived with the formality of a president. He ate every meal even by himself with finger bowls and all the silver and all the stuff like that, because he did a few funny descriptions of it. Ms. Anslover one of my favorite truman stories, he often wrote bess letters when she was home in independence and he was in the white house. And he was just convinced he could hear the ghosts of his predecessors wandering the halls. And i think he really enjoyed imagining they were there to keep him company. Bess thought it was silly, until one night, she and margaret heard a crash, and then they thought for just a minute that maybe there were ghosts there, ms. Swain well, if you took the insides out, maybe the ghosts went with them. They might have. How much of the original white house was preserved in this process, mantles . Mr. Seale mantelpieces were preserved. Some doors. Not much of it was to be preserved, because it was cheaper to put crestwood in and stuff, but lorenzo winslow, the architect, really was the hero, as far as the original things. He saved what he could. And during the clinton administration, when the blue room was being redone, and the paint was taken off, there was all that old original pine, those enormous boards, the most gorgeous thing in the world that winslow had insisted that they be put back in the house while he was there to do it and didnt have to listen to anyone else. So i dont know what percentage. You know, of course, next year is the 200th anniversary of its burning. And about 30 percent of it was torn down after that fire. But, you know, the walls are 100 percent. And what percentage is that of the house . I dont know. Everything else was and then the subbasements were dug. And one secret one was dug, and truman ordered the park service to surrender 750,000 of its budget to do the subbasement, the one in 9 11, that the Vice President was in, and its. Ms. Swain the secure space. Mr. Seale it was done secretly and not secure anymore, but the that became secretly out of the park service budget, and those bulldozers went down and dug it, but no one knew it. Ms. Swain we have some film, video of when the president reintroduced the white house to the nation afterwards. What was the public reaction when it was reopened again . Mr. Seale oh, i think people thought it was beautiful. National geographic did a beautiful issue on it after truman moved out of office. Ms. Swain and heres a tour that i think nbc gave. Mr. Seale people thought it was beautiful. It was all done by a Department Store in new york, the decorating, b. Altman. And chuck haight made the decisions. Mrs. Truman and the president refused to make decisions on wallpaper and things like that, because they said it was not their house. It was for the future. And so mr. Haight and the staff made most of those decisions. And it was done cheaply. I mean, theyve beat everybody down. Scalamandre, Franco Scalamandre gave fabrics for 3. 50 a yard, which, you know, are hundreds of dollars a yard. Ms. Swain so Sheldon Cooper asks on twitter, how much influence did bess have in the rebuilding of the white house . The answer is, as much as she wanted, which. Mr. Seale as much as she wanted, but they both felt that they werent going to live there long and that it was something more important. Ms. Swain neesin is in visalia, california. Whats your question for us . Neesin visalia, but i have two questions. One, since the world series is on, was she a sports fan, like, did she root for the cardinals . Ms. Anslover Kansas City Royals all the way. Ms. Swain they were big sportspeople. Ms. Anslover bess was. Not harry. Neesin and then the second question was, you mentioned that harry overcame his prejudices, but i heard the story through merle miller who wrote the plainspeaking, that one time when they came to the house, he said he couldnt let them in because he was jewish and the family was kind of antisemitic. Ms. Anslover one of harrys best friends, one of his army buddies, was eddie jacobson, who was jewish, and he was actually the one that he ran the Mens Clothing store in kansas city with. So the trumans certainly did associate with jewish people. Mr. Seale wasnt he his best man . Ms. Anslover i think besss brother served as best man. Mr. Seale well, a tailor was in the wedding who did a suit for him, but charged him for it. Ms. Anslover i dont think that was a jacobson. But he was a dear friend to harry truman. Ms. Swain a twitter viewer, 379life, wanted to know, after watching that, where did they raise the money to fix the white house . Mr. Seale congress. Ms. Swain all of it . Mr. Seale no public appropriations . Would you no, would you believe it cost about 5. 5 million . Think of what it would be today. Ms. Swain peter is in boston. Hi, peter. Peter i just wondered, was bess truman friends with any other first ladies . Ms. Anslover she admired Eleanor Roosevelt. They were friendly, not dear friends. Mamie eisenhower, before she was the first lady, when bess was the first lady, they took a spanish class together in the white house. A group of washington ladies decided to learn spanish. And bess grew very fond of her then, and there was later a rift between the trumans but and the eisenhowers, but bess was fond of mamie. Others . Mr. Seale i cant think of any others. Ms. Anslover i cant think of any others. I think she liked Lady Bird Johnson. Oh, they did very much enjoy the company of both of the kennedys. They went and stayed at the white house after jack and jackie were in the white house. Mr. Seale they certainly did. They went for the inauguration, didnt they . Didnt like joe kennedy, but they liked the son. Ms. Swain i mentioned earlier our website, which has all the video of all of the first ladies programs weve done so far and also lots of other videos you havent seen here. You can find it at cspan. Org firstladies. Each week, we put one special thing about the first lady that were featuring that we havent used during the program. If you go there now, youll find Clifton Truman daniel sharing another story about his grandmother from the home in independence, so something just for you online. 1952 election, why did the trumans decide could they have run again if they wanted ms. Anslover yes. The constitutional amendment not only did not apply to the incumbent, but it would have only been his second time being elected. But bess said to him that she could not take another four years as first lady, and. Ms. Swain how old were they then . Ms. Anslover in their 60s at least. Mr. Seale oh, yeah. He was 61 when we went to the white house, so he. Ms. Swain 69, he would have been. Mr. Seale yeah. Ms. Anslover and she didnt think he could take it, either. They were in good health for their age, but the korea and mccarthyism was starting to spread, and they were getting worn down. Mr. Seale and once eisenhower turned republican, it was pretty clear he was going to win. I mean, he was a hero. Ms. Swain what was the trumaneisenhower relationship, since he had been president at the end of the war . Well, part of thever trouble was that eisenhower turned out to be a republican, where truman had hinted that he might support eisenhower if he wanted to run as a democrat in 1948 and truman wouldnt run. Truman really admired eisenhower for a long time. And eisenhower was somewhat aloof to him from all of the letters and memos that we see. And then truman was highly offended during the transition period, when eisenhower did not appear to want to take his advice, and then a big social snub occurred on inauguration day. Its customary for the incoming president to stop by the white house, have tea, pick up the outgoing president , and ride together. First, eisenhower, it said, wanted to be picked up at his hotel. The trumans said no. So he and mamie arrived at the white house, but they would not come inside and greet the trumans. They sat in the car. And the president of the United States had to walk out to him. So you can feel the tension, if you look at the pictures of that inauguration. Mr. Seale and after the inauguration, truman was almost forgotten. I mean, he was almost thrown out. Had no guards. Guards were taken away and everything. Of course, he had no pension or anything coming to him. And one of the secret Service Detail took annual leave to accompany them back on the train to independence. And no one told them goodbye, until they got to the train station. There were about, what, 100 people cheering them . Ms. Anslover no, i think there were more. It was another time that no one had turned out. I think when they left, there were more. And then when they returned home, there were thousands in independence. Mr. Seale right, in independence. And so they were gratified, but, yeah, somewhat offended. He had trouble with the thousands. You know, theres that story about him getting out of his car and going to the front door. And his glasses were gone, and the crowd pushed in on him. His glasses were gone and his handkerchief was gone. And they built an iron fence thats there now. Thats after the presidency. Ms. Anslover they did not expect the crowds, and people just kept walking by and wanting to see them. Theres a story about margaret one day coming out onto the porch and yelling at someone to go away, and they later found out he was an escaped mental patient or Something Like that who had a gun. It was a very different time. Very different time. Mr. Seale but the city of independence put up a retired officer but a policeman offduty , on the back porch, and thats the only guard they had. Ms. Anslover but bess would not allow them in the house still. Ms. Swain in fact, during the white house years, when she would go back to home in independence, she would not allow secret service protection. Ms. Anslover no, she wanted to go shopping. She wanted to do her Christmas Shopping and live as normally as possible. Mr. Seale but did they go anyway with her . Ms. Anslover not that im aware of. Ms. Swain don in chester, pennsylvania . Your question, please . Don yes, i had the good privilege of corresponding with mrs. Truman twice after her husbands death. Id sent her a copy of a tribute that i had written for our school paper, and she very graciously responded with a nice letter, and then i sent her birthday greetings. And she made a personal letter. She had terrible arthritis, and she just made the effort to be down home. The interesting thing was that, in margarets book about her mother, she comments that president truman was very protective of mrs. Truman concerning her fathers death. And a cousin very meanly told margaret about the circumstances of her grandfathers death, and, of course, president truman had a fit about that and really ripped into the woman, and that was very unusual, because he was a very courtly gentleman as a rule. So that was a very interesting footnote to the trumans Family History. And she was at mrs. Roosevelts funeral with her husband and the johnsons and the kennedys, and there are pictures to that effect in the roosevelt library. Ms. Swain don, before you go, how did you get so interested in the trumans . Don well, since interestingly enough, just hours before Robert Kennedy was killed, i picked up a book on president kennedy, and that got me interested in politics in general. And since that, 45 years ago, i really have become a particular aficionado of the president s, but just of politics in general, especially american politics, from 1932 to the present. Ms. Swain thanks for your call tonight. So in their years after the white house, one of the things they did was an interview for National Television in 1955. Now, talk about easy interviews. Who were they interviewed by . Ms. Anslover their daughter, margaret. Ms. Swain their daughter, margaret, asked her parents the questions. We have it was a program on cbs called person to person, which was really a big hit program at the time. And it was the only Television Interview that bess truman ever did. How about that . In her whole public career. And youre going to see a little bit of that next. [video clip] but, mother. Mrs. Truman yes . Please tell everyone why you went back to missouri instead of staying in washington. Mrs. Truman well, there was never any question of staying in washington. There was never any question about coming home. Is that reasonable enough . Thats all right, yes, ill buy that. Mother . Yes . Are we still getting a lot of sightseers and visitors . Mrs. Truman oh, loads of them, yes. All the time, every day. We had a funny experience the other night. Dad and i went over to see your cousins across the street, and there were so many of them out here in front of the house, we couldnt come home. We had to spend most of the evening on the front porch over there all by ourselves, because the cousins were not at home. Is that ridiculous . Yes. Yeah, what about the time someone picked your tulips . Remember . Mrs. Truman oh well, yes, some woman came into the backyard and started picking all my beautiful white tulips. A lot of the men on the place went down to ask her just what she thought she was doing, and she said, oh, she didnt think mrs. Truman would care if she took some of her tulips. Well, she helped herself. She took all she wanted. Thats a fine thing, after all the work you did on them. Yes, isnt it . Mother . For years, we had secret servicemen around us, at least dad and i did. Mrs. Truman do you miss washington . Oh, yes, i miss washington. I miss washington a lot. I loved it there. But im completely happy at home. Of course, the secret servicemen didnt bother me as much as they did you and dad. Well, if i remember, you lost them. Yes, i did. Early in the game. Ed murrow wanted me to ask you just how much influence and help was mother when you were in the white house . She was a wonderful influence and a wonderful help. A president is in a bad way if he doesnt have a first lady that knows her job and is a full support to him. Shes the greatest helper a president can have, and mine was. Good. Mother, let me switch from washington to kansas city. Hey, hows your Baseball Team doing . Mrs. Truman well, were doing pretty well. Were going to have a great team, though, before the seasons gone. That sounds like a good youre the sports fan in the family. Have you seen anything good on tv lately . Mrs. Truman well, a few good things, yes, but i havent been able to find that wrestling matches. No good wrestling matches, huh . No, not at all. Mommy, you want to say a few words about politics specifically or in general . No, not in either category, thank you. That is just a glimpse of a much longer isnt that fun . A much longer person to person interview by Margaret Truman of her parents in 1955 after they left the white house. They do come across as just plain folks. Ms. Anslover they really were, and they valued that. They valued loyalty and hard work and honesty. And they liked a good laugh, but they were normal people. Ms. Swain but he was not popular when he left the white house. It took many years for his reputation to be reestablished. Why were so many people going to see them in missouri . Well, part of it he wasnt necessarily unpopular at home. Hes still the hometown hero. Independence, missouri, has not had any other president s. And they probably thought they could just walk right up and say hello to the trumans as they had in the past. How did they spend their postwhite house years . Ms. Anslover they were long ones. They were long ones. He wrote his memoirs, first of all, because he had to make money. He wasnt getting a pension. And several lucrative offers came his way, but he like bill was saying, he never believed anyone should trade on the presidency. So he wrote his memoirs and bess edited every single word. And that was their first project. And the establishment of the Truman Library. Mr. Seale he was intimate to that, intimate to that, and believed very much that it was a matter of history, of interpreting history. And he did the original design himself for the exhibit. Ms. Swain and kept an office there. And if you visit visit there today, you can see the office, and one of the striking things is his office looked right out on his future grave site. Well, the great story with that, he said, i can just see bess, youre going to lay there next to me, and i can say one day i can see myself saying, oh, i feel like going into the office. Ms. Swain yeah, and were seeing pictures of the truman family grave sites right now. They have Margaret Truman, by the way, had four sons, and as you saw, Clifton Truman is very involved in the legacy of his grandparents. One of the four sons passed away, and im not sure about how the other two or whether theyre really involved in the library and the preservation of the history. Theres one story and were running out of time, but this is such a great story. And someone asked, what id like to know more about is the trip she took with the president by car after leaving the white house. Did they really just do it, the two of them . It was the convertible trip across the country. Mr. Seale its a charming book about it. I cant remember the authors ms. Anslover i cant remember the authors name, im sorry to say. But you can find it on the web about the trumans trip, the automobile trip. Ms. Swain well, one of the stories ill tell you that i remember is of people passing them on the road and nearly having accidents, because he was in a convertible and all of a sudden they recognized they had just passed the president of the United States and the first lady. Well, as we wrap up here, we have about two minutes left. Someone keeps asking wants to know, what on twitter, so we should ask it what would bess truman say is her greatest contribution to the role of first lady . Her greatest contribution to the role of first lady . Ms. Anslover demonstrating that you can be a strong influential partner and you dont have to be on the front page or on the tv every day. Your influence can be strong without it being public. Mr. Seale exactly, and that she supported her husband and the president when he became the president. She supported him. They were very aware of that president and individual, you know . Ms. Swain harry died in 1972. Bess died in 1982, 10 years later. Ten years. How did she spend those 10 years after he passed . She up in years. She died at age 97. Ms. Anslover right, she was at home. She tried to keep up her correspondence. The rheumatoid arthritis. Mr. Seale she had a caregiver finally, and then several of them at the end, but she died at home. Ms. Anslover she died in her home, and i imagine thats the way she would have wanted it. Ms. Swain and how should we remember . Ms. Anslover i think we should remember her the way she wanted to be remembered, that you can be a wonderful influential first lady, even if people dont know it at that time. Ms. Swain and did have then any influence on the role of first lady . Mr. Seale or was she really truly her own person in that job . I would say she was her own person. I think absolutely. Because its not really possible 202 7488000 anymore. Mrs. Reagan said, well, she was going to play cards with her friends, which is something bess truman would have done. Oh, my goodness, youd think shed committed treason, and so she got causes going. But mrs. Truman would have responded to that saying its my life and im not elected. Right. But not possible today. Ms. Swain so she was an independentminded person. Mr. Seale it depends on the woman. At a time when that was allowed. Ms. Swain she was her own person. Well, thanks to both of you for telling us the story of. Thank you, susan. Thank you. Thing to the White House Historical association our , partners in this series, and to the folks at the Truman Library and the truman house in independence for their help with the video tonight. To mamie, with music. With her experience merits of lady,tar general, first maybe eisenhower, new how to manage a large staff, and expected nothing less than excellence in the white house. She was voted one of the nations best dressed. Mamie eisenhower, the sunday night on cspans original series, first ladies influence and image. From Martha Washington to michelle obama. Sunday at 8 00 eastern on American History tv on cspan 3. They were wives, and mothers. Some had children and grandchildren who became president and politicians. They dealt with joys and trials of motherhood, the pleasure, and sometimes chaos, of raising small children. And, the tragedy of loss. First ladies looks at the personal lives ofve