Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On EPAs Land Revitalization Program 20221114

States, tribes and, others to assess and clean up contaminated properties. Its an environment and Public Works Committee hearing is about two hours. [background noises] i call this hearing to order. Senator i call this hearing to order. Good morning, one and all. Senator capito, good to see you. Thank you for helping us pull this hearing together, this important hearing. Let me discuss the Environmental Protection agencys Brownfields Program as we begin to work on the programs of reauthorization. For nearly three decades now, brownfields has proven to be an important source of Helpful Community forced to contend with. The Program Provides federal assistance for communities to clean up contain him unaided we most recently reauthorized appropriations for this program with a strong bipartisan support about five years ago. I think it was 2018. Its time now to review the state of the Brownfields Program and to examine what works well, to identify potential ways to update the program so it can best meet the evolving challenges that communities face. I like to say that everything i do, i know i can do better. That includes our oversight of this program and the way this program operates throughout the country. Fortunately, we have four distinguished witnesses actually, three this morning. I think the fourth is remotely. We have three distinguished witnesses joining us in person. We have another remotely. They each possess decades of hands on experience working with state and local governments and private developers on brownfield sites across the country. Mr. Goldstein is joining us remotely. Mr. Carico is here and mr. Buschur, mr. Pouncey here as well. Thank you for joining us. If you wouldnt mind introducing this one fellow, carico, i fellow from West Virginia. That would be very. We already had a chance to show. We look forward to hearing from each of you. We want to delve into a little bit of the history of this important program. ,. ,. ,,,. ,. , the agency also reports that every dollar of the federal assistance leverage is over 20 of revitalization. This is contributing to the 180,000 jobs since 1995. Thats a lot of jobs for a big state or a little city. We have seen the positive impact of the program firsthand delaware since. The program began, the first aid has received shipbuilding site turned once a shipbuilding site turned a toxic sight this is a site right close to the train station. If you go back to world war ii, go back to about 160 or hundred seven years ago, 10,000 people worked along the Christina River close to the train station for about a mile either way. 10,000 people, mostly women, or building the ships which helped win the war in world war ii. When the war was over, we ended up with a toxic site. The question was what to do about it. What we thought about as we replaced it with the wilmington river find. Its a thriving place to live and work. We have a lot of people to think with respect to the Brownfields Program and this wonderful outcome. Its a place where the president elect proclaimed victory after the election two years ago. As we consider brownfields reauthorization, this committee should examine whether specific opportunities exist to further strengthen this program. I believe this reexamination should consider building upon programs existing and resources to help local authorities with areawide and Regional Planning brownfields remediation, increased support for planning, ensuring communities are better able to as our nation tonight is to grapple with the adverse impacts of Climate Change and extreme weather, reminder that today we are thinking of our neighbors and friends down in florida as they endure a terrible punishment from the hurricane working its way up the coast. The program should also encourage sustainable revitalization projects. By doing, so we can support to me the efforts to become more useful while reducing Greenhouse Gas emissions. In addition the, program should incorporate and principles and practices to ensure that the people and communities negatively affected by local land pollution can fully participate in the benefits of brownfield revitalization. Finally, as we consider ways to improve the Brownfields Program, we should ensure that the program not only assists communities with financial and tactical burdens of revitalizing contaminated lands, but also encourages stakeholders to fully engage with residents during the planning and execution of projects. Let me close by reiterating that it is now the right time to explore improvements to this vital program. Last year, we provided the epa with a three fold increase in funding for the Brownville Program under the bipartisan infrastructure law, which this committee knows we literally helped to write. We need to ensure that the program can use these Additional Resources to the greatest effect in assisting our cities and towns and our communities and our tribes. I look forward to our discussion today and the work that lies ahead of all of us. We welcome our witnesses in person and remotely let me. Turn to senator capito. Thank you, chairman carper. I want to thank you for holding the hearing to talk about the epas Brownfields Program. I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here. Its a rare occasion when the epa program enjoys strong bipartisan support along this committees dais, as we know. The Brownfields Program has become a resounding Success Story for our economy and the environment. Since we are on the east coast and have developed a lot earlier, we have a lot of older sites and both of our states. Brownfields are pieces of property or redevelopment where it is complicated by the presence of a large variety of contaminated properties are potential brownfield sites. Common examples are abandoned factories, landfills, and former gassed asians and dry cleaners. We had an issue with the dry cleaner in our state. These underdeveloped properties lining the streets which ones were bustling industrial and commercial and agricultural areas across our nation, discouraging investment and job creation, producing local tax revenues, and harming property values. Rather than viewing these properties as a stain on the community, the Brownfields Program recognizes the vast untapped economic potential is contaminated sites can have after they have been successfully remediated. E programs inception, 36 billion in brownfield grants have been allocated to local communities, getting about 192,000 jobs. Inundation, the program is one of the most effectively leveraged. It provides a return of more than 20 for every dollar contributed by the epa. Brownfields grass serve as a financing tool for local private investors by providing reliable funding and facilitating long term or use funding. They reduce Financial Risks and Shell Developers from potential liability under circa. All parties have invested interest in the long term restoration of a contaminated site. These help the local Community Enjoy the benefits of for decades to come. We recognize the successes of brownfields. We must acknowledge as the chairman did improvements are needed. This is particularly important if we are maximizing the return on the 1. 5 dollar investment the program received from the iija. For example, congress appropriately intended brownfield grants to be awarded on a competitive basis. However, rigorous and complex applications require a continued source of confusion within the program. Applicants typically have only 60 days to compete and submit announces another rounds of grand solicitations. The short timeframes and complicated requirements lead to situations where Rural Communities are unable to compete with their larger urban counterparts due to a lack of resources. Unlike larger cities and urban centers, local municipalities typically are operating in multiple fulltime grant rioters on the staff. This makes it an uphill battle for our world communities when they try to compete. As mr. Care across, you lose points quickly. There have been projects that have not made it. You can see how competitive it is. Discrepancies and Staff Resources impede Rural Communities from competing on a level Playing Field, ultimately leaving many promising Brownfield Development opportunities on realized in disadvantaged areas wishing the most. Until you can clean that and remediate it, you are not going to get any development around it. The epa deserves credit for recognizing that there is a problem. One way the agency has attempted to address the issue is to otherwise known as tab. There are six recipients of tab funding. I understand the Morgantown Office in West Virginia is a tab funded facility, refer to us to our providers. Each is assigned to a region in the country. Tab provider serve as an independent resource assisting applicants with expert Technical Assistance and guidance to help them navigate the brownfield application process. They serve as a role in facilitating more grant applications which lacked their own grant writing capacity. We or privilege to have with us today someone who has worked with the Tower Program and has worked in West Virginia which is george carico. He serves as the director of the regional Brownfield Assistance Center at martial university. He has devoted his entire career to the brownfield arena, helping to bring muchneeded funding to the state and the region. I want to recommend you for the high praise the West Virginia brownfield assistant centers often receives from the broader brownfield stakeholder communities. Thank you. Your forwardlooking and innovative approach to maximizing world participation should be a model for other rural areas in the country. I look forward to hearing about the work you have undertaken in rural areas to facilitate economically development and Community Vibrancy. We are also joined by the chairman of the Martin Law Firm with decades of experience in the acquisition and redevelopment of hundreds of Brownfield Properties. He will provide this committee with a much new perspective on the developer side. His past work was praised by the epa as a best practice in brownfield redevelopment. He continues to receive numerous accolades, having been honored as he is one of atlantas 500 most influential leaders. Thank you for coming today. I look forward to hearing about how the private sector participation in the Brownfield Program is so important to longterm success. I want to thank everyone for being here. Its an important hearing. I yield back to you. Thank you very much. I just want to add that a lot of people watch what goes on in washington think we never agreed on anything. You are welcome to a committee today were we actively work remarkably well. The bipartisan infrastructure bill was signed into law ten months ago. Its one of the most farreaching, transformative infrastructure legislation in history of the country. We rotated out the we reported the waste water stuff unanimously. We have reported out what became the foundation on which the more recently, we got word that a lot of Resource Development for the senate. We did similar things with recycling legislation this year. More often than not, we find work toward getting stuff done. Im a practical politician. We are both West Virginians and heart. We work with our team and we are delighted you are with us today. For a couple of our witnesses, i would add to that mr. Goldstein. Hes an environmental law attorney and a leader in brownsville development. Hes joining us from florida. Hes the founding chairman of the florida brownfield association. I know mr. Goldstein has i am glad that we are we understand is doing it from the hurricane. My parents lived the last 30 years of their lives in clearwater. Theyre under the gun there. We are thinking of them and the neighbors up and down the gulf coast. Mr. Brad buschur, thank you for joining us. The project director for the groundwork in lawrence, massachusetts. I used to a number of we had redevelopment within that particular area. I would add mr. Pouncey to the comments from senator capito. We are both chairman. You can never have too many of them. Along with mr. Goldsteins firm, he is a member of the National Brownfields coalition. I understand that you are the principal author of georges new brownfield legislation as well. Its a very interesting form. Finally, my friend from West Virginia, mr. Carico, the director of the Brownfield Assistance Center. [inaudible] my sister is a graduate of marshall and a bunch of my cousins as well. About every 10 to 20 years, they knock someone off college football. Ohio state, michigan, about 15 years ago, my notre dame my sister and my cousins are hard to live with when that happens. I will get through it and so will they. Our thanks to him for joining us. We are going to lead off with you. Thank you for connecting with us. Its very difficult and trying in florida. Please proceed. Thank you. Good morning, chairman carper, Ranking Member capito, and members of the committee. My name is michael goldstein. On the managing partner of goldstein law firm. And the past president of the florida brownface association and chairman of the National Brownfield coalition of Public Policy Redevelopment Center and regulatory partnerships committee. The coalition jointly managed by america and the center for Creative Land recycling as a non partisan alliance advocating for equitable remediation of brownfield nationwide. Its an honor to participate. Thank you for this opportunity. My remarks today are informed by three decades of experience assisting businesses, local events, and Community Stakeholders to develop and other witnesses will no doubt speak to the magnificent Brownfields Grant Program administered by the epa which is transform talent fine mentally challenging marginalized communities think about pollution, where they live, work, pray, and play. The epa Brownfields Program and the funding that congress has increasingly made available beginning in the mid 1990s has given the voiceless a voice in the powerless agency. This program is constantly evolving and innovating and reinventing. In terms of a regulatory strategy, it is as close to perfect as one could possibly want. Of course, the program is inundated by the people who surround it. I want to celebrate the epa staff and the Brownfields Program in the superfund redevelopment program. If there were harder working more professional environmental officials who will make a difference in their lives of the millions of officials every single day, i havent met them yet. Turning to our substantive recommendations, the coalition in clear just a committee to double down on the boldness of the federal Brownfields Program by adding to the resources which are currently available, not just enhancing those in the books. We need to add more tools to the toolbox by innovating legislatively with respect to Financial Resources and to providing additional mandates to certain federal agencies to increase the farrier power that we can tap into. On the financial side, we recommend three new discreet funding opportunities. First, as part of the reauthorization bill, we renew the federal brownfield Tax Deduction before expired into thousand 11. This incentive allow the party who clean up contaminated property to deduct cleanup costs when the year incurred. A report prepared by the coalition shows that section 198 of the tax reduce remediation costs by one third to one half. It was used more than 625 times and more than 40 states. Second, we strongly recommended the creation of a brownfields Loan Guarantee program. This program would combine the aspects of the deal Loan Guarantee program with a new Market Tax Credit Program to leverage many billions of private sector dollars for early stage bridge financing of redevelopment projects which are considered too risky for conventional lenders. And my professional experience, there are countless projects which fail on the concept stage because they are caught in an unwinnable position. They are not alone worthy until the risks are concerned, but the environmental risks cannot be cleared into loan funding is available. Third, brownfields reauthorization is inelegant and timely vehicle to combat the Affordable Housing crisis in this country. We are recommending a significant expansion of the language of Affordable Housing at the federal level. To that end, we would love to see an increase of 4 or 9 of low Income Housing tax credit under section 42 of the iris code to 6 and 12 for Affordable Housing built on brownfield sites, a stepped up basis under section 42 of the tax code of between 100 and 30 to 100 50 , and a huge gamechanger, i know one time the amount of 80 of the cost of Land Acquisition to develop Affordable Housing built on brownfields. On the agency resources, we believe there is a much more active role that are least three agencies can play in support of brownfields revitalization. The federal highway, the Economic Development and destruction, and the core of engineers. Each of these is experienced what has been functionally absent in the federal brownfield arena. First, through reauthorization and direct fha to provide technical and financial assistance, including Grant Funding for a brownfield redevelopment projects which are transit oriented and invest in Environmental Justice neighborhoods, which provide multiple transit options, and reduce the distance, the cost, and the impact on climate of connecting people from home to school or work at all points in between. Second, the army corps likely has the largest working storehouse of Environmental Data and information regarding Remediation Technologies in the country. Access to this information should be readily available to stakeholders everywhere. Relatedly, the court could and should publish guidance documents regarding lessons learned, involving cleanup of common contaminants, as well as emerging contaminants like pfas. The rich experience with coastal communities creates opportunities for disseminating Climate Change focused brownfield strategies. Also relatedly, we would like to see a Brownfields Grant Program administered through the core which emphasizes Climate Change, Sea Level Rise, Public Health risks, and Environmental Justice. Finally, mister chair, through reauthorization, congress could expand on edas mandate to promote sustainable job growth and the building of durable regional economies into ways. First, by directing the eda convened a National Public private summit on brownfield Economic Policy and priority, and second, by directing the collection of a standalone Brownfield Program which pulls from existing funding and repackages it to be in line for Public Health, job creation activities, with an emphasis on climate stewardship, energy security, and creating affordable and transit oriented housing. The National Brownfields Coalition Thanks to committee for its consideration of these remarks and i look forward to responding to any questions. Thank you so much for that thoughtful testimony, i always look for, as senator capito, where is the consensus among the witnesses . Mr. Goldstein has laid out quite a list there. Thank you, mr. Golding. We wish everyone down there in florida the very messed. We are here to help. I think our next step you are up. We are delighted that you are here in person. Please proceed. Chairman carper, Ranking Member capito, and members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today on the Environmental Protection agencys Brownfields Program. I represent groundwork lawrence where i am a project director responsible for leading the organizations environmental improvement programs. We are a Community Based organization working to create high Quality Built natural environments by branded gating stuart and lawrences three rivers. We contaminate to support healthy, active lifestyles. We are part of a network of independent locally based Groundwork Trusts in 25 cities. The Environmental Protection agency and local stakeholders established these. The trust to political hours of Community Wide people centered approach in the development of green spaces. I am speaking to you today on behalf of groundwork lawrence and the city of lawrence, massachusetts, located 30 miles north of boston. It is a planned Industrial City founded in the 1840s central to the citys rise. North and the construction of the great stone dam along the mary mcwhirter diverted water to the north and south canals to provide power to the mills along the bank. Lawrence quickly became known as the immigrant city. By 1910, 90 of the cities 80,000 residents who are either first or Second Generation americans. The city had become the largest manufacturer of worsthit wool and textiles in the world. By the end of world war ii, the was in full force as capital employment was moved out of lawrence to lower costs regions. The challenge associated with lawrences deindustrialization. It is significant. Abandoned mills are impacted by poly are a matter hydrocarbons, petroleum, chlorinated solvents, arsenic, led, pcb, and cadmium. A wave of arson and abandonment in the 80s left vacant house in laws potentially contaminated by lead and asbestos. Multiple trash incinerators formerly located in lawrence have all been shuttered, but they left behind soils contaminated with dioxins from burning plastics in medical waste. The citys densely populated neighborhoods frequently about industrial and commercial areas, exposing residents to contaminants by direct contact or inhalation of vaporous the of migration from soil and indoor air. Many of lawrences contaminated properties are small and interspersed throughout residential areas. Capers and potential risks to human health for the homes and businesses surrounding them. The Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection lists to order 32 identified sites with Environmental Constraints spread across florida six were miles. Today, the city is an economic and Cultural Center of the mare mac valley with over 80 of whom are latino. The city has benefited from hundreds of millions of dollars in private investment and redevelopment of its historic mills which now provide market rate and Affordable Homes for residents. Unlike many older urban areas, the city has a young and growing population fueled by the influx of caribbean immigrants who bring new energy, businesses, and dreams. In a city notorious for ethnic tensions, there is a growing momentum behind the broad based Community Revitalization efforts, a hardworking entrepreneurial community, and a high functioning Nonprofit Sector and renewed Community Vitality with the election of mayor bryan to pena who recently led a tour of the brownfield redevelopment targets. Since 1996, the city of lawrence has received 3. 65 million in epa Brownfields Program funding. The city has successfully utilized the grants to bring forth substantial economic benefits including leveraging 12 million state and federal funds to assess cleanup and redevelop complex Industrial Properties in the creation of more than 200 construction jobs as well as an additional 200 permanent jobs. This is related to the Union Crossing project. Lawrence currently has two active brownfield cleanup grounds to support redevelopment of the largest remaining undeveloped parcels in the city. The most challenging project is the tom borrells site, a 14 acre former facility abiding schools and Residential Properties with pcb contamination. The other product is the mare map paper site comprised of 27 interconnected dilapidated buildings encompassing over built in 1866, the site has become a perennial fire hazard, police in First Responders and health at risk. Both properties have benefited from steps taken by the Brownfields Program prior to the city taking ownership. The epas reason branch undertook significant remedial actions to address imminent Public Health risks created by private Property Owners. Groundwork lawrence has been fortunate to support the efforts of the city to wreak brownfield to provide residents with access to recreational opportunities where the neighborhoods where the poverty rate income levels and centers the population are drastically higher than the rest of the state. Central to this work is the creation of the green way. Over 12 years, groundwork in the city created six new riverfront parks and connected them with a 3. 5 mile long shared use path providing residents with close to Home Equality parks. The epa Brownfield Program funding supported remediation of four of the parks by providing 600,000 of the 10 million were required to construct these products. Additionally, the land and Water Conservation fund and Community Development programs are vital to supporting the creation of these spaces. As this committee undertakes reauthorization, groundwork lawrence recommends evaluating three areas of the program. The statutory limit placed on the epas cleanup grant is 500,000 per parcel. It is a significant amount of money, but offside disposal and transportation costs have increased dramatically over the last five years. Another item future regulation should address it is making building demolition and eligible cleanup expense, i control demolition of business is often the source of environmental contamination and soils which places the environment in the public at risk. Most importantly, future legislation should require Strong Community engagement to ensure all impact it residents have a strong voice in the redevelopment process of brownfields. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Mr. Buschur, thank you very much. Were going to turn to mr. Pouncey. Please proceed. Thank you. Welcome. Mister chairman, thank you for [inaudible] this is a very personal issue to me. I grew up in a textile mill village in central alabama. My family and i worked either in the mills or in the surrounding manufacturing facilities around the mills. Both of those males are now closed. They are abandoned. I am very sensitive, senator capito, to some of the issues you raised about how we redevelop in some of these rural or notsourban areas which suffer from the same concerns about brownfields that you suffer into the metropolitan areas that mr. Buschur mentioned. In discussing brownfields, its important to understand the consequences of the failure to clean up these sites. In large measure, these properties have either been, as is the case with the mills that i mentioned, completely abandoned or in some instances they have been severely underutilized, meaning they are operating on a scale little crew to avoid intentionally certain epa permitting requirements kicking in when they are close to. They have become significant safety hazards particularly to young children. There is a they represent a threat to the communities in that condition. They serve as a magnet for crime in many instances. They also constitute environmental risks to the surrounding communities simply because of deteriorating buildings very often containing a number of hazardous substances. Asbestos comes to mind immediately. The contamination exists in the soil and the water. What i dont think we have focused on, and im going to take a little bit of a departure from the first two witnesses comments, the challenges that we have to redevelop these sites. They require, the site, least brownfield sites, require a significant upfront investment in capital and cost. Very often, the testing that you do to determine if the site is valuable for redevelopment, that testing us 5 to 10 times if you are developing a greenfield. You are not necessarily going to realize the ultimate redevelopment. Very often, those test results might say that the redevelopment is not viable because of the level of impact existing at the site. We need to recognize that challenge for a private developer coming in and making this investment hes. Putting a significant amount of Us Working Capital at risk with no certainty, with real eyes to realize on the risk. I will come back then in a few minutes in terms of the Financial Centers we created. The second difficulty, and i say this for both as a leading a lot of brownfield redevelopment efforts across the country and also personally doing redevelopment in these areas as well is there is an inherent delay including these sites up before you start to redevelopment. There isnt any hair and additional cost which much occur after you purchased the property. Its not just the investment you make before you buy it. Its the investment you make after. The question becomes, how do we create the incentive which encourages the private sector either on its own or jointly with the Public Sector to redevelop the sites . I would argue that one of the most effective ways to do this is to move these sites to state Brownfield Programs which exist in all of your states. I will give you one example of the effectiveness of those state Brownfield Programs. You mentioned that i was the author of the george brownfield walk. We actually began implementing that in 2004. Since that was implemented in the state of georgia, over 1300 properties have gone into the Brownfield Program and over 700, almost 800 properties have achieved cleanup under that program. Thats a private Incentivized Program for cleanup. It has been reflected not just in the metropolitan areas, but in the rural areas of georgia. The reason it, like most programs, provides two things that are critical. It provides a financial incentive to conduct that cleanup. You are able to recover your cleanup costs back from your property taxes. If i spend 1 Million Dollars on cleanup, my property, because of the redevelopment, has increased in value. Im able to recover from the increase in value. I can recover my cleanup costs. We i will monetize that. If i sell the property later, my buyer who will also benefit from that offset in taxes, i can recover that some from a buyer. That is a major incentive, which quite frankly is underwritten in a lot of these deals which otherwise would not have occurred. A second reason to incentivize, which is common with a lot of state programs i have discussed, is a Liability Protection. You mentioned that earlier, senator capito. If im a buyer who had no responsibility for the contamination, i didnt even owned the property when the contamination occurred, i am agreeing to come in and conduct a state or federally approved cleanup. Ive toif i dont have a certain Liability Protections which attached to me and doing that, i have no incentive to come in and perform the cleanup. Most of the states have recognized that introduced these Liability Protection provisions, some broader than others, which give you protection and quite candidly and perhaps even more importantly give your lenders protection. Im able to get to financing this from those projects. That also is important when you are dealing with rural redevelopment or small Town Redevelopment as well as urban redevelopment. You have to be able to get the financing sources. The other item that i would note here, i will pause for a minute. Individuals with whom ideal on a weekly basis. What is the Biggest Issue for this thing in terms of their ability to even more successfully implement the Brownfield Programs . For them, honestly, it is funding for the Grant Programs. The states we talk about where we can invest the money in assessments and in cleanup and i will come back to the cleanup issue in a moment as well. Your time is expired. Im not going to cut you off, but just keep in mind we have other witnesses. Thank you mister chairman. I will tie this up very quickly. The predominant comment on all of these brandnew programs has been that we need to fund the programs and keep them active. The fees dont cover all the costs of the program. That is the predominant concern that i hear among those Brownfield Programs. Finally, i would note an item that my cowitness mentioned earlier. There has been a lot of money spent in these Grant Programs on assessment. The real price, the real cost is on the cleanup side. Raising the limit on the phones associated with cleanup is absolutely imperative in terms of allowing the progress to move forward. If theres one thing that i to point out, thats a great comment. Thats a burden where you get to the front door. Thank you very, very much for that testimony, all of it. Mr. Carico, you are on. Welcome. Thank, you senator carper and senator capito. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. I am george carico, director of the thumb West Virginia Brownfield Assistance Center at martial university. Im here to offer our experience. We are showing our support for continuing of the Brownfields Program at offer input on how this valuable program can be strengthened. Our Brownfield Center works in conjunction with the Brownfield Center at West Virginia university. These were established in 2005 by state legislation to assist communities and organizations across West Virginia in redeveloping Brownfield Properties for a new and productive use. We have seen firsthand the importance of epa brownfields funding, how the investments have resulted in strengthening of local and regional economies while adding new Community Vibrancy and resiliency to our cities and towns. It has been quite prosperous for several communities. Its our goal to see more successes, especially in our smaller and more Rural Communities. West virginia is like most states. We have thousands of Brownfield Properties found in all sizes and conditions. These properties can be quite challenging to redevelop, primarily due to the environmental hazards that they contain, or are perceived to contain. Properly assessing and, if needed, remediating environmental hazards is vital to transforming these properties into new productive use. This ensures the future safety of human health and the environment. And epa brownfields funding is providing this vital component. Since 2005, our senators have seen a wide variety of successful brownfield projects. Resulting in an estimated 1. 6 billion dollars in leveraged funds. This creates about 40 50 jobs in our state. I can provide dozens of examples. I will quickly focus on three different but equally important projects which illustrate this success. The first one is the Shepherds Town library. Sheppard sound is one of the oldest towns in West Virginia. They were in dire need of a new Library Building as the old building was way too small and they had inadequate parking. They had lots of issues there. The most suitable location that could provide enough space was identified at the edge of their town. Decades ago, that was the former town don. The site was fully assessed and corrective actions were conducted. In july this year, the town celebrated the opening of its new library. This site consisted of a former gas nation in a dry cleaning facility. Brownfield funds were utilized to address the hazardous contaminants and the sole and the site was entered into the westward involuntary remediation program. Just recently, a certificate of completion was a shoe. A new answer to magically located virus nation is under construction. Last example i will give you this the beach bottom industrial park. A steel mill operated here for decades along the ohio river. After closing and sitting vacant for many years, brownfield funding was used to associate and in august of this year it, was announced that an electric pontoon Boat Manufacturing Company will be the first ten and on the property, providing 100 new jobs and investing 5 million into the facility there. These are just a few examples of projects were epa brownfield investments have played a Critical Role in if the funding route available, most of the projects would not have happened. This project gets environmentally impacted properties ready for new use, clearing the way for other funding streams to be utilized which would result in successful projects. Well we have a lot of success stories, we have many, many more sites which still need attention, especially in our smaller communities and our rural areas. The number of Brownfield Properties might be less, but they are just as equally important to to limited capacity and resources, it is much more easy for the smaller communities to compete against the larger cities and urban areas. Successfully applied for brownfield Grant Funding and meeting all the requirements can be a daunting challenge for these communities. They are often at a disadvantage to successfully complete. In closing, i will say this. The epa has numerous programs which are of tremendous value and importance to the u. S. We like many others consider the Brownfields Program to be a crown jewel. Some changes to the process should be considered to make it easier for smaller communities to compete. The Brownfields Program is definitely a true champion. I think you and look forward to your questions. We have been looking forward to your testimony. Let me just say you have met and exceeded all of our hopes. I again want to commend our convincing you to come and join us. I already telegraphed my pitch and indicated the things im looking for. Finding consensus. We were pretty good at this committee and finding consensus on major issues. I mentioned some of those earlier. Im going to start off by asking you to briefly respond to this. We will start with mr. Buschur. Interestingly enough, two areas, two ideas where you think there is consensus among the four of you which is important that you think we should really pursue. All the things you have heard said listen to, where are a couple of really great areas that we can pursue . Theres a lot of consensus. Well, i spent a lot of my time building parks. There is never enough money to do everything that the community wants. As illustrated by my testimony, epa cleanup money is providing a very small sliver of the overall amount of funding provided to construct these spaces. Communities are obligated to maintain that engineers barrier to make sure the spaces safer residents. The statutory limit increases important. I would also go further to say that site that remain fallow but have received funding from the epa should also previously they should be eligible for additional cleanup funds. The statutory limit used to be 200,000. I think there is consensus on increasing the statutory limit. The second area where i think we didnt hear it from the individuals today but i know that listening sessions in region one are really highlighting that the need for building demolition to be eligible cleanup expenses its pretty wild that a Mill Building has to burn and the contaminants have to end up in the soils to be eligible for cleanup. Thank you. Quickly, two areas were you think we have to drill down on a consensus. The limit on the remediation Cost Component is a big issue for these grants. As i mentioned earlier, you could very often have these assessment money so you get to the front or but you cant walk in. You cant afford the cleanup. I would consider that to be a significant item along with including demolition costs. The second item with which i would agree and i think mr. Holden had mentioned it, with us reintroducing and inactive or extending the brownfield tax credit which allows you at the federal level to expense your cost in the year that they are encouraged from a remediation standpoint. Same question for mr. Carico. Any great ideas that you think there is a lot of great consensus around . I completely agree with the cleanup aspects. I will add, though, one good thing. This round of current funding which is coming up, there are actually three layers to the cleanup that is in process. There are three levels of funding. The Higher Ground numbers, the funding numbers are reduced numbers of grants. Theyre probably need to be more at the higher level. Its good to see thats advancing because its costing a lot more money to sites. I want to give a big amen to the demo site. Finding demolition money is always a very difficult one. The third one i would add is the complexity of the application process for smaller communities which are limited capacity its. Very daunting and challenging for them. Its hard for them to compete against your larger cities and urgent urban areas. Work and they compete on a more level Playing Field . That would be a great benefit for everyone i think. Are you still will, as mr. Bolton . Im following along very closely thank you very much. My first item or a c consensus starts with an observation at that is with respect to reforming the great administrative process. Its burdensome. If you could streamline that that would increase the competitive miss of not only world communities but Environmental Justice communities who are also resourced even though they are in urban areas. Thats a mentor the aim and that we just heard on including demolition costs in grant process. The second main area of consensus i see is with my brother joe. That is finding a way to have epa jurisdiction on sites with primary federal enforcement. We can get those sites into state Brownfield Programs where they can enjoy a statebased liability incentive, Liability Protection. And economic incentives. Including florida, the two are mutually exclusive. If a site is under federal law enforcement, it is ineligible to participate in the state Brownfield Program. I think there is a lot of bang for your buck and looking at exploring that and relinquishing the federal enforcement jurisdiction. Terrific. Thank you for that. Senator capito has offered to step aside and let you go ahead and ask a few questions. Thank you for being a faithful a tender of the hearings. Thank you. I appreciate that. I have a tough battle here with the chair. I won. Let the record show that she won. I won this one. I won this one. Thanks to all of our witnesses for being here today to appreciate the discussion. The city of des moines has recently gained ownership of what is known as the former die cosign, which has been on the epa National Party list since 1983. Tomorrow it has actually taken a number of steps forward in collaboration with the epa and the Iowa Department of Natural Resources and in the attempt to redevelop this property. The goal is to house a professional soccer stadium and bring economic Development Opportunities to the community. However, there is always a however. However, sights on the National Priority list are not eligible for brownfields funds. Mr. Pouncey in your experience, how many sites have you worked with which are no longer owned by that original i would offer it to the entire community. One of the reasons that we have met with the epa regarding is the effort to get these sites off the National Priority list so that they can be eligible for state programs which allow for the items which i mentioned earlier, which is tax relief, potentially, which is Liability Protection for the buyer which is coming into by that sight and redevelop the same. We have also introduced the concept of partial dilution, which means that even though all of the site might not be removed, at least the lion share of the site can be removed from the bnpl. That would be eligible for the state program. It can proceed in the same program. Thats wonderful. I think you just answer my second question. I was going to ask if you believed it would be appropriate for sites to have transferred that ownership to be eligible for those brownfields funds. I think we have work to do their. We are blocking a lot of really great Economic Development by not engaging with those properties. I really appreciate that. Mr. Kara, did i say that correctly . Given your experience, what steps do you think would be the most and packed full in streamlining both the brownsville grant applications and the implementation process . Streamlining the process, that would be a wonderful step in the right direction. Its extremely converse and to put the applications together. We work with communities as an example. We have been dealing webinars with communities this past summer, telling them about the grant process. We are helping them to understand that this is not an easy task that you are about to encounter. We are trying to keep them through what is required in each of these applications and the overall application process. By being able to streamline that a little bit, there is so much information that is required. It gets down into things like Health Statistics and cancer it along to these and all of these things. As the epa says, they want you to tell a good story with your application. You have to fit the contaminants that are in your community that you are looking to deal with against the health concerns. A lot of, times especially in our more Rural Communities, its hard to get that data which can be presented. We are already at a disadvantage and you lose points for that because you cant score well in a particular category. We should put you should keep more of the focus on assessing their property, figuring out what needs to be cleaned up, and then figuring out the strategy. We should apply the cleanup Grant Funding to go do just that. Its simplifying that a little bit which is going to help all of us down the road, especially with our Smaller Community yeah. Thats going to hear. Thank you so much. I do think thats important as well. Lets get on it. Thank you very much, Ranking Member capito and chairman carper. You bet. Thank you so much. Glad you conquered your chair that is very. Good. Senator joining us now from maryland. We have been joined by welcome. We you are recognized. First of all, let me thank the chairman Ranking Member for conducting this hearing. On the brownfields legislation has been critically important. I represent the state of maryland. Let me talk about trade point it landed. This is one of the largest brownfields sites in the country. It was a Sparrows Point steal yards from the 1800s to her 2012. At one time, it was the largest steel producing facility in the united states. When eight shuttered in 2012, there was close to 70 million of immediate work that had to be done to clean up the environment. Today, as a result of the brownfields legislation, this property has been reprogrammed. We now have amazon, home depot, under armor, bmw, volkswagen. We have the d. O. E. Offshore wind initiative. We have large real yards connecting to Class One Railroad cs acts. It is a hub for Economic Growth for the future transitioning from a steel yard Production Facility to its modern needs. Im a strong advocate for brownfields. Im a strong advocate for the legislation we were talking about today. I just would like to focus on one aspect of it as to how we could perhaps do even a stronger job. We know that most brownfields are located in challenging communities. These are older communities by definition. They had older types of facilities. How do we focus the legislation to be more effective in regards to Environmental Justice and helping the underserved communities . I welcome your thoughts as to how as we look at reauthorization how we would want to provide additional incentives so that we could reach those communities. Sometimes, these brownfield sites might be kind of small. Other times, they might be large. They might be located in Rural Communities. How do we deal with the unusual comment mistakingly swish dont have the same resources that other communities might have . Who is the first witness who is willing to help here . Go ahead. So ahead. Im happy to start. If they, are happy to try to answer that. Again, i am in West Virginia. We have a little different set up there. We actually have to brownfield assistant centers. Our state legislation put that into effect back in 2005. It is actually our job to go out and work with local communities, to help them understand the daunting challenge of going out to the grant funds. It is literally handholding 101. Stepbystep, getting them through understanding what the environmental contaminants are all about. How do you address them, all these different issues that are there. So, we are doing that in our state. We have had a lot of success with it. The tab providers are we helping you do that . Oh no, sir. How can the federal government help you do this . You have the tap providers. Technical assistant providers that the epa has throughout the country. I believe there are six of them if im not mistaken. My counterpart at the in West Virginia university is one of those tapped providers. They do the same thing, trying to interact there. The problem is theres a lot more work that needs to be done there if you are going to get out to those more rural, smaller communities. I have to tell you, it takes a whole lot of oneonone meetings in order to really get them on board. I agree with you. You are saying we could help the federal government in providing the resources for Technical Assistance. For communities to have challenges working through the application process for grandson eligibility. Can we make the grants a little bit simpler and more focus to make it easier for these communities . That would make us all happier, i can assure you. Again, for our smaller communities they are really kind of a step behind. It is very difficult to be able to pull all of the needed requirements into those applications. If you did not score well in just one little subsection of an application, you probably wont get funded, as was mentioned earlier. We have had projects that scored 92 points out of 100. In school that isnt a paper. These were not funded because it did not score high enough. I know my time is just about out. I was hoping mr. Goldstein might want to add something to this. He is helping i am out here. I am in the brownfields ether. I am listening carefully and eagerly. Senator, thank you for your question. I think there are two specific strategies that the federal government can employ to address your important concern. One is too overly induced the private sector. Here in the state of florida, the legislature has put its thumb on the scale for Affordable Housing on brownfield sites and for access to health care on brownfield sites. In my earlier testimony, i suggested ways in which the federal government could provide heightened subsidies to Affordable Housing developers through the low Income Housing tax program for developers that invest in communities that need critical Affordable Housing. I also provided testimony regarding a brownfield Loan Guarantee program which, in my experience, but likely build billions of dollars off the sidelines of private capital into rural and environmental communities provided that you incentivize those Loan Guarantees in that fashion that is on the one hand using a broader basket financial tool to overly induced the private sector, just make it a bad business decision to ignore Rural Communities and Environmental Justice communities the other leg of the approach the second lag would be to superempower those communities and Rural Communities by providing them direct unique access to other federal agencies with massive resources that currently arent in the federal brownfields arena like the army corps of engineers. Like the federal Highway Administration like Economic Development or other agencies that this committee does not have jurisdiction other like for example hug. Those are two very discrete and meaningful and material approaches that could help you execute on that important issue and concern that you have identified. How do we help those communities . The current marketplace has organically produced an incentive for private Sector Investment . Thank you very much, i appreciate it. Thank you. Chairman carper had to go to home land security meeting so he handed me the gavel, which i love. I will do my questioning. I will start with you mr. Carico. Thank you for coming from the beautiful state of West Virginia. I think we have pretty much made the case here by pretty much everybody that rural areas, maybe aging communities or maybe not characterize as such need more help, need more capacities, a new lens through which to look at them. I want to ask your new question. I understand you are allowed to have mr. To cost 5 . Is that correct . Its not an accurate figure . Should there be more, less . Does that reflect well on meeting the needs, administratively . First of all, some years ago not too many years ago, you could not have any administrative costs. Firstly, its great to see when epa out of that 5 of mr. Kospi. That was really good for everybody. From what i can tell, this is just my opinion on the matter, with the folks i work with, the larger cities and our larger urban areas i think the 5 fee is fairly sufficient for them. They have staff, they have other resources, that they can draw on. For our smaller communities where they dont have that many resources. They did not have the capacity et cetera possibly a little bump to that 5 allowance would definitely be of help to them. I would also add to this as a caution if i could. The vast majority of the funding should always focus on assessing those sites, figuring out what the contaminants are, all of those things that are needed, followed by the cleanup. The primary funding should always be focused on that. A secondary focus on site redevelopment in planning. 5 its great. Maybe bumping it up a little for our smaller communities. It would help them out a little bit more. Maybe not too much of an issue for some of our thank you. Mr. Pouncing, your testimony i think brings into focus the partnership aspect of this. You talked about the state of georgia. What you are doing there. You have all talked about states that are active here. And also the private Developers Aspect of this. So, as you are looking at that in terms of i know you have mentioned some tax issues that could be helpful, opening up to demolition. We need to do demolition, not just on brownfield sites but on urban areas rural areas that just have these dilapidated, on care for properties. They are havens for ill use. They are unsafe and unhealthy. If you are looking at how would you improve those . Strength in those partnerships . To make sure that we are maximizing all the benefits . Im curious to know, as well, because i did work on the opportunities own legislation with senator scott, are you all using that . Can you use that in this universe of brownfield redevelopment . Has that been useful . Senator i will address those. Excuse me, in reverse order. Yes, the opportunity zones play a huge role in our development activities. I think a number of the changes proposed are worthwhile changes. We have seen census tracts in areas that have grown out of poverty. They may no longer be appropriate as treatment for opportunity zones. Certainly they provide a real incentive for Patient Capital to come in and restore and help me develop some of these neighborhoods. On the Public Private partnership, and perhaps let me speak to the grant issue first, respectfully we have seen many instances in which the grants funded testing but that testing was really for no specific purpose toward cleanup. As a result, at the end of the day nor for redevelopment of the community or improvement of the community, at the end of the day it becomes a report that goes into someones desk. It just sits there. I would propose, and we have championed, in some instances, the local communities who are applying for receiving these grants partnering with the private sector, as well. There is a real opportunity so many times the cleanup that occurs as part of the redevelopment itself. After that if moved. The yellow line that is out there moving this turn is going to be there whether it is construction or whether it is clean up. Its just where the material is taken afterwards. I do think that there is real benefit in the local communities in applying for or receiving these grants, partnering with a private sector interested entities or developers that can come in and say to them, here is the testing that we need to come in and do this redevelopment. A very often includes a public and a private component to it. I think that i would suggest that that is one way to more effectively views, or ensure, the effective use of these funds. Having that Public Private partnership at the outset before the assessment begins. Thank you. Senator whitehouse . Thank you very much, chairman. Welcome to all the witnesses. I think we can probably all agree that Super Fund Sites, burning or flooding is a very bad outcome. Ive seen a lot of heads nodding. For that reason, wildfire and flood risk is important in dealing with the emerging site populations, if you will. Gao did a report entitled, epa should take additional actions to manage risk from Climate Change. Where gao found that the epa had omitted Climate Change from its agency strategy. Further, many super fun sites would be at increased risk of flooding and wildfires, obviously, if you have admitted that from here risk calculation you have kind of missed the pitch. My question to you, i guess i will start with our voice from the ether, if i may, mr. Goldstein, what did we lose in the denial years when epa would not count Climate Change into the super fund risk factor . Have we caught up for whatever went wrong in those years . How prepared are we now in terms of a proper, scientifically based, accurate assessment of which Super Fund Sites face new risks from flooding in from a fire. Mr. Goldstein . I think that the industry, and the agencies, both at the federal level and the state level, marquette trick up really quickly. There is and has been over the past, i would say, five or six years a very significant effort to understand the remedies that are appropriate to implement for contamination in the coastal zone areas. These are acutely subject to sea rise. Whether those remedies should continue to include encapsulating of waste onsite or source removal. This is an ongoing discussion that has technical implication, regulatory implication, legal implication, economic implication and equity implications. Not all cleanups are created equal. Not all cleanups arent financially sourced or valuable in the same way. This goes back to some of the testimony that we have heard in this hearing. Outcsome of the testimony that i provided regarding the ability of the federal government to achieve Better Outcomes and better results in the age of Climate Change by putting our thumb on the scale with respect to certain outcomes. Approaches to clean up where, here specifically, we could the legislature could, congress could, prioritize source removal in coastal communities. The removal of all impacted contaminated soil or sediments so that when waters rise from below, or fall from above, the caps that are in place which may no longer be an effective remedy are not an issue because the source of contamination has been removed. Thank you. I have a minute left. If i may let me ask the other witnesses to offer whatever thoughts they may have in response to those questions. Responses for the record, put them in writing. It wouldnt be right for a rhode island senator not to say a kind word about Rhode Islands role in establishing brownfields, led by a chairman once in the environmental Public Works Committee, john chafee. His picture is one in that room as one of the former chairman of this committee. Reauthorized by his son, lincoln chafee, years later when he assumed his father seat. We take a certain amount of pride in the Brownfield Program around rhode island. And has good rhode island fingerprints all over it. Another rhode island credential that relates to this is that rhode Island Coastal management resource along with island have worked to improve the mapping of flood risk. Because we discovered that the fema mapping was absolutely horrible, it was terrible if you follow the fema mapping it led to internal inconsistencies within its own program. It produced results for were storms that were lower than what was measured for actual less bad storms. How is it possible that you could come up with a flood risk map that shows for x level of storm it will be better than what we experience for a lesser level of storm. It doesnt make any sense. The sloppiness of the fema process. The inconsistencies within the fema process. The flinch that they had about looking at Sea Level Rise. Oh my god, you might have to touch on Climate Change. Oh my god we cant talk about that. This created a disaster. The state really stepped up. They have done first quality mapping. I encourage anyone who is in that predicament now to take a look at what rhode island did. The storm tools app, it is called resource is really pretty remarkable. Unfortunately, it tends to be coastal. Im sure in West Virginia some of those rain bursts storm floods have a similar outcome on folks. I just wanted to say those thankyous to rhode island. Much appreciated. I will think rhode island as well. I can continue to speak to the 2016 flood. The maps in raynell show that there would be no flooding. There was flooding, 68 feet in these houses. If you talk to people in the community they would say, oh sure. Sure they flooded. They get water in their yard every spring. They knew. The map showed, no. These folks hadnt bought any flood insurance. They did not have a very happy outcome for many of. Them here is a question i wanted to ask everybody. We talked about successful brownfields applications in project that you have worked on, have you ever had a project where you looked at it for a brownfield and you deemed it would be, not worth the effort or something that was premature. I dont know. Lets start with you mr. Carico. Yes maam, the short answer to that is yes. Many times we will interact with the community i can give you an example in the local community they had a little project, all they needed was all said and done 30,000 to do some asbestos abatement. The epa Brownfield Program was not the route to go to get that funding. Way too much effort for that one single project. We do often sit down especially, again, with our smaller more Rural Communities. After meeting with them going through all the details. We will tell them, you are not ready to try to get into this brownfields arena. We try to help them with one particular site. They have a little side inventory. The highest ranking site that they want to try to do something about. We will try to work with him on that one site. That gets their appetite wet and gets them to learn the process a little bit. That prepares them to where they can move forward into the brownfields arena. All of these other fellas [inaudible] two categories of sites that weve had to walk away from. One of our sites that are on the National Priority list it takes so long to get the sights off the list. That is the Super Fund Program . It is. It is. We had one where we spent close to 15 years to ultimately get off a National Priority list. We went through for series of purchasers. The lack of patients, they just couldnt wait that amount of time to get it off. That was one instance. It is why i think it is so important to get these funds off the superfund list. The second is, less subject to how you correct it but it is simply where we are approached by a developer for a particular type of use. It turns out that the site was just not appropriate for the type of use. You may be looking at a Single Family or multi Family Residential development and the cleanup is such that its really only going to support an industrial use or a warehouse, last mile use. Something like that. Thank you. Mr. Buschur . Yes, we have two types of sites in lawrence. We have scatter sites, smaller properties. Smaller Industrial Properties in residential areas. Then we have Large Properties with great proximity to transit, highways. Riverfront properties as well. The ones that are along the waterfront, close to transit, they are going to find a private partner to complete that redevelopment and to show the leverage that the epa Brownfield Program is so known for. When you get to the scatter sites in the residential areas, the smaller industrial sites. Less than an acre with triple decker or high density housing right adjacent to them, the and use is not very visible. The partners with the brownfields expertise required to reposition these and get them back on the tax rolls, they are not really out there. You are really relying, quite frequently, on someone like groundwork to come in and do a park. Or a Community Based organization for Redevelopment Corporation that is going to take down the side and hopefully create somehow thing. At the end of the day, it all requires a private partner who is willing to take on the risk associated with this redevelopment. If the market is moving fast, you are likely to have more traction. When the Real Estate Market is slow, things tend to slow down. Mr. Goldstein . So, on our and we, from time to time, experience many of the factors that the previous witnesses mentioned. Florida has been blessed with a very active economy. Some of that has not been a significant driver in terms of having to walk away from brownfield sites. Is whereon our and, what we fint as being too significantly hurdle to overcome is where the Public Health risk is acute. Where there has been actual injury to Public Health. Claims maybe asserted or maybe assertable in the future with respect to Public Health. One that could be absorbed by potential purchaser. That makes redevelopment very difficult. I think that mr. Pouncey address that in his Opening Statement on liability issues. If you have a site that you have decided has been decided, we are not gonna go forward on, is it remediated . Does it just sit there with contaminants . But might not be a good question but, i dont know. What happens to the sites . They sit there until someone comes along later . Until the leadership, the Political Leadership is there and they say i want my staff, limited staff time to go out and tackle the site. Within lawrence levy sites that are just, they are off the tax rolls. The city it could be a no gas patient or something . Yes. Or others yes, we have a dry cleaning site that is now a park. Former manufacturing facilities nestle between a river, a school, and residential areas. They just are not right for redevelopment. The city is trying to figure out what to do with them. As mr. Pouncey has noted, he really needed private partner to make this happen. You cant just make it parking. Thank you. Go ahead, please. Your question is a great one because that is when we originally came in week to the Brownfields Program in the first instance in the mid 1990s. There were dozens and dozens of obstacles to clean up and redevelopment that were too high to surmount. Steadily, over the decades, epa and state partners have been lowering those obstacles. There are not many that remain but those that remain can be significant. You have just address many of those. Other via return again to the suggestion i made a few times. Obstacles remain too significant for the marketplace to respond under existing conditions. The federal government should come in and change the conversation by super inducing the private sector to absorb the risk through the use of Loan Guarantees or expanded grants or expanded access to Liability Protection. Senator, if i may, i would like to comment on that. I think that is a number that is very reflective of this issue. We have had a Super Fund Program in georgia since 1992. Over the life of that program which now is 30 years weve had about 700 properties put in our states super fund list. Of those, i think now we are approaching 250 or so that have been cleaned up. 700 over a 30year period. Compare that to the Brownfield Program, which is a private incentivize program where we have had 1300 properties go into the program. Just a little over half the time 750 or so of the properties have got cleaned up. Compare that enforcement component versus the private incentive component and you see the dramatic effect on the opportunity to clean up. That is a good point. Mister chairman i will have to say goodbye. Youre gonna leave me alone with all these witnesses . Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for running the show. Senator sullivan was here but he had to leave. I dont know of any republican politics being able to join us this morning. We have been joined by senator padilla, he is recognized for any questions or comments. Thank you mister chair. I thank you for holding this hearing on the need to reauthorize the epas Brownfields Program. The brownsville program has a long history of supporting safe and responsible redevelopment. Sits in inception and have made nearly 10,000 properties ready for years. Many of which are in my home state of california. Many of which are in my hometown of los angeles. Many of which are, literally, in my backyard. In the neighborhood where i grew up. I have seen and worked on these issues as a state legislator putting state uses i am familiar with these efforts once upon a time as a City Council Member trying to navigate some of these cleanup efforts and the redevelopment often in underserved communities im preceded your written testimony on the challenges of de industrialization. The example i want to focus on today is not actually in my backyard but in the county of San Francisco. The shipping industry was the lifeblood of saint franciscos baby view neighborhood for decades. The confrontation of industrial sites has resulted in more than 150 brownfields in bayviews hunters point. Many are now further threatened by Sea Level Rise. I see a convergence of challenges here. The actual shipyard itself is now a federal superfund site, one of americas most polluted places. Just last week, San Francisco broke ground on a project that will connect disadvantaged communities in babe view the kind of representatives that other shoreline representatives instances go have long enjoyed. Working with the epa in a Diverse Group of community partners, San Francisco is redeveloping a 13 mile corridor of green space with trails, parks, along the waterfront. Redevelopment of the site would not have been possible without first cleaning up from contaminated soil, debris, and structures on the property. Efforts which were supported by epas Brownfields Program. In a few short years, thanks to this program, the Community Members at bayviews hunter point will be able to enjoy trails on what was lunch and i am blinded industrial site. This project was successful thanks to the engagement and support of various state and local entities, while the project received almost 350,000 from the epa brownsville program, the city also leverage separate epa funds as well as other sources of funding. Not every Environmental Justice community has the same access to Technical Assistance to be able to creep complete projects. There are surely other federal agencies that can and should be brought into the brownfield redevelopment project. My question is actually for mr. Goldstein. How should we think about a whole of government approach to funding brownfield means government projects and improving inter agency coordination. That is a great question, senator. Im glad that you asked. You are absolutely right. There are other agencies that should be part of this conversation. They should be providing resources. I have identified three that are under this committee thrift excision in my testimony earlier this morning. The federal Highway Administration, the army corps of engineers which has massive resources to bring to the table. They can absolutely partner and collaborate with Environmental Justice communities and an immediate and very material way. The Economic Development administration. The epa has put out a wonderful graphic document, they have been doing every so years. It is the federal Brownfield Program which identifies aspirational brownfield agendas for 24 different federal agencies and departments. If you look at what is actually happening in the brownfields universe, epas the only agency that has any meaningful involvement. I would suggest is a corollary to affirm the amendment to the testimony i gave earlier. Have epa convene a National Brownfield summit. Bring natural each of those 24 agencies and departments to the table. Allow private and Public Sector stakeholders Environmental Justice et cetera and collectively identify what Human Resources and Financial Resources each of these agencies that are already part of the federal brownfields constellation and bring to the table. It is specific to reauthorization again we reckon that new funding resource be allocated specifically to the core, specifically to epa. And two for these purposes lets put our sum on the scale to prioritize funding for Rural Communities. Thank you. I would like to ask one quick followup question from mr. Goldstein. One reason this project was so successful was because San Francisco accounted for a potential Climate Change and Sea Level Rise impacts by using epas brownfields cleanup alternatives checklist. For example, they chose soil excavation as a preferred cleanup method as opposed to remediation. And reduces the risk of remobilize in contaminants. Sea levels continue to rise. How can the epa ensure that Climate Change and potential Sea Level Rise are adequately considered during brownfield redevelopment efforts . Could i ask for a brief response . We will continue the conversation after the hearing. Absolutely. Im glad you asked that question. And give me an opportunity to follow my response to senator whitehouse. The epa is laser focused on Climate Change and brownfields. We have released several guidance documents that are encyclopedic in the way in which they approach this particular challenge, including focusing on source removal as a remedy. Why is that important . If you leave contaminated soil in place and it is subject to a flooding, the waters will soak through and contaminate the material. Like a sponge that may contain hot chocolate wiped up for kitchen counter, that material is going to leak out of the soil and further exacerbate contamination. Our regulatory levels should be focused on source remove all as the first component of a Climate Change strategy for brownfields. Thank you very much. Mister chair, i know my time is of. I will submit to questions for the record. The recommendations of codifying some of our Environmental Justice equity directives in the Brownfields Program. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for joining us and for your participation questions. I had a couple more questions i wanted to ask before we break for the day. Mr. I think you mentioned i had to go out of the room for a while. One of my committees, the Homeland Security committee, was marking a vote on legislation. They needed someone to give them a quorum. I was happy to do that. That was a little bit of what was going on. I told mr. Pouncey that you mentioned addressing the development liability as a way to better incentivize redevelopment. Yes. I think mr. Goldstein, i told my staff that you started attach ron on this and some approaches in this regard in your earlier comment. I am just asking each of you to just describe for us ways that this might be accomplished, that this might be accomplished while still Incentivizing Health protection. Again, mr. Pouncey, you mentioned addressing developer liabilities as a way to better incentivize redevelopment and the question would be to ask each of you to describe different ways this might be accomplished while still Incentivizing Health protection. Mr. Buschur, would you like to go first . Liability associated with ownership of brownfield site is a barrier for all actors, whether they are trying to create parks or trying to redevelop sites. Within lawrence, the state administers the Brownfield Program, except for contaminants covered by tsca. Confidence ive been used to the state ag office to absolve future owners of brownfields, particularly in certain park projects. Thats been a barrier for us to act on parts as well to take ownership when ownership of properties when they are presented to us and they fit within our long term vision for the city. Thank you. Mr. Pouncey, i think you may have raised this. Go ahead with any further comments you have. Please share them. Yes. I do think its part of the reauthorization that they may want to be some consideration to looking at a number of state that have enacted liability to protect and see if that can be applied to the federal site as well for those brownville wires. I would note that the requirement that you perform in the cleanup which is agreed upon. Thats the way to ensure the health and safety of those who might be impacted by liability relief. I would also remind us that we took a reliable approach and has done tremendous things for the country. It did impose the liability upon an owner of property. Whether they had owned it when it occurred or not. I do think that is a they have an opportunity to acquire this property versus the greenfield wish he wouldve asked the resources somewhere else which prevents that property from actually being cleaned up. I do think Liability Protection is a tool which should be considered as part of the reauthorization. Thank you. Could you describe for us why is that this might be accomplished while still Incentivizing Health protection . I want to completely agree with these gentlemen here. One thing in West Virginia i would add is that we have our state voluntary mediation program. That program does provide that Liability Protection. Thats oftentimes the only way that you can really get a sight to be cleaned up and ready to go and everyone on the private side agrees with you. They see it. They realize that all the effort has been made. That to me is one of the best routes to always try to keep in mind. I will agree with these gentlemen that the liability aspect of it, many many times, the side ends up just sitting there because of that big challenge there and trying to handle that. Its a big hurdle. Thats for sure. Thank you. Mr. Goldstein, what i was out of the room and continuing the hearing, you may have started to join incel approaches in this regard. Mr. Goldstein, if you have anything, jump in here and share with us what i may have missed, anything else you want to add on the front, go ahead. I will be very. We will have discussion further in the testimony about tension between the superfund farm at the federal level and many state Brownfield Programs across the country and that the Liability Protections are offered under both programs. They were mutually exclusive. It was impossible in many states to take advantage of either Liability Protection incentive if you were not in that same program. The specific incentive that i would offer that i think would be very meaningful would be a very discrete amendment to the superfund statue that provides that any party that enters into a state based brownfield volunteer in cleanup agreement automatically has contribution defense and other defenses against thirdparty claims under federal superfund law. That way, you get the best of both ordinance and you would not necessarily have to worry about epa relinquishing its enforcement discretion. That is a very, again, discreet and meaningful approach which could immediately be taken by congress to expand the scope of Liability Protection available to developers which might be able to address their state based legal exposure but not their federal legal exposure to third parties. This bothers two pieces of bread with one knife. You say it better to be the bread with one knife . Excuse me. Did you say butters two pieces of bread with one knife . I think that was one of the highlights of this hearing. This has been a great hearing but that is one of my favorite aspects. Go right ahead. I would also reinforce the point that mr. Pouncing made. That is to ensure continued protection of human health and keep developers on tasked with potential cleanup, this is a quid pro quo environment that we are operating. In all of the incentives, especially the Liability Protection incentive, remain vital insofar as developer complies with their cleanup and Public Health obligations. If they failed to do so, the incentives are lost including the Liability Protection, senator. Great, thank you. I have three or four other questions that i will ask you to respond to them very briefly, if you could. And we will call it a morning. The first one deals with local engagement. Brownfield cleanups, and we often involved federal and state and local government. The fed provides the cleanup seed money through State Government dictate the cleanup standards, for the most part. Local governments make land use decisions and have alternate control over what brownfield redevelopment is ultimately going to look like. This is critical because land has the potential to provide, as you know, huge benefits impact the communities. We have seen in my community is very close to where i live. Im sure you have seen in your own. The question for the panel, but especially for mr. Buschur and mr. Carico. If their colleagues would like to comment, you are welcome to do that, as well. We will start off with mr. Buschur and mr. Carico, why is looking vomit so important for brownfield redevelopment . How can we improve our outreach to local governments and individual communities impacted by brownfields redevelopment . Mr. Buschur . Residents just want to be heard. They want to know what is going on. They want to be kept in the loop. It is so important to keep them in the loop. I think we have all been to a Public Meeting that has kind of gotten off the rails when residents have not been properly communicated with. Just a quick plug to avenues for engagement. That is the Groundwork Trust network. We have reached over 6 Million People living in Environmental Justice communities across the country. Over 75 of whom are people of color. We support the citys efforts to prepare in draft the cleanup and the assessment proposals by providing the statistics that others have referenced so hard to access. Expansion of the network, which was created expansion of the groundwork network which was created with support from the National Park service and epa, as well as little stakeholders, would go a long way to achieving the engagement goals within urban areas, but i would also say, rural areas as well. It is not overlooked. The smaller and mid sized cities. We are in mobile, alabama. We are in atlanta. We arent epa. The network is strong. It can bring a lot of expertise to local decisionmakers. All right, thank you. Mr. Carico . Great comments there. The big thing we find on the local community with local engagement is they want to be told the real story. The rumor mill goes around and around it around. A lot of times they are misinformed by a particular property, but it can and cant be used for. And then what it is going on with a. Providing that local engagement piece, that gives them the opportunity where they can be heard. They can provide their input on what is going on on that property, how the future redevelopment of it is going to affect them. When you do run into issues at the local level, that platform can then be addressed. This Brownfield Program, the way it is set up with that local engagement and that Community Engagement piece, it provides that framework, if you would, where that could be conducted. It is a great way to get the story out get everybody involved and come together with some consensus on how everything is progressing forward. That would be my comment. Thank you mr. Carico. If mr. Pouncey, if you want to add to that. Feel free mr. Goldstein if you want to add to the comments, be free. You dont have to. The comments individuals on my right and left are spot on. The fundamental part in all of our redevelopments engagement with those local communities. It is a fundamental part of the zoning process. I do not see very Many Developers who are successful if they do not understand that. People do like to be asked. People do like to be asked. Mr. Goldstein, before i asked my other question, do you want to add anything on this front . No, sir. Okay. All right. Well, im down, 14 to go. Maybe not. All right, and we know this deals with brownfields mediation planning. This will be for the entire panel. We know that thoughtful planning is vitally implant part of land mediation and the program overtime has been reformed to include more support of the planning portion of brownfield redevelopment. For the hall of the panel, what can we do in congress to further strengthen federal support for ground field planning . In communities not only engaged in sidebyside planning, but can dedicate time and resources to develop regional areas live plants to land revitalization so that authorities can develop more comprehensive land use goals and planned for their communities . That is a pretty long question. I would be happy to repeat that if anybody wants me to. Mr. Buschur, would you like to take a shot at that . Sure. Ive been fortunate to participate in and epa area wind planning in the projects. I strongly about ten acres north and south of the citys Main Commercial orders. That set the stage for the city to create a new urban renewal plan. Hopefully, in 2023, we will begin construction on the rail trail which bisects the planning area. These phones were really vital to starting to have the conversation, not only with Property Owners about thinking about what they could do for the entire district with their individual small parcels, but also starting the underlined zoning and making sure that the right overlay is there, reflecting the communities interest and the overall goals of the city. Just Building Support for the conversion of the corridor to alternative transportation corridor. It was a really good project. Hopefully, the reauthorization will continue supporting it. Thank you. Again, just a brief comment, im looking for a short answer. Units are always careful to have epa get involved in land use planning. I think thats obviously much more effective at the local or regional level where they are on the ground. I think there are areas where grants can be incentivized in certain forms. Transit is a great example of that. There is an ability to incentivize grants receiving extra points or receiving some level of priority if they meet with those categories. I will add a quick comment to the. With the brownfield funding, you can use some of the funding for conducting planning activities. We have already had some things in place in some communities, but there was additional work done, we had a Market Analysis or circle analysis or whatever. It turned out that the initial plans were not really the best plans. Those things got changed a little bit. I see very positive results that have come from that. That has to be done at that local level. Having our brownfield funding to help with that it is a big key that is part of the whole cleanup plan. All right, thank you. About two more questions, if i could. It has been well documented that the lower income communities and racial minorities are disproportionately exposed to environmental harm. We are seeing that in my own state, not far from where my wife and i live. There are concerns that a brownfield of element can do unintended harm by displacing the people who live there. With a mediation, there can be an influx of zone in planning and privately funded new development. It can turn cause runs to rise above what Community Members can afford. Again, for the entire panel, how can we incentivize private entities which invest in Brownfield Development to ensure that remediation in communities where they are located and create sustainable, long term Infrastructure Improvements for Community Residents . If i could, im going to ask mr. Goldstein to lead on that one, please. I would be happy to, mister chairman. This is the unfortunate secret in our world of brownfield redevelopment, the unintended consequence of revitalization and gentrification. The opposite is how do we help communities which have long been in a neighborhood remain in that neighborhood . We do that by qualify and private sector incentives with responsibilities and obligations with a local residents and local organizations. We require them to take on local partners. We require them to provide mentoring for grams, job creation programs, job ration programs. We require them to take on micro lending programs to invest in Cultural Amenities and gathering places and the lake. All of these could be included and what might call generically the anti gentrification plan which could be a condition to the award of any fellow brownfield grant. Thank you. Same question. I dont have additional comments to make. Thank, you sir. It is an issue. We see it. Weve seen it dealt with at the local level. I can point to a number of developments that i have been involved in in charleston, South Carolina where there is been an enormous amount of public involvement and comment to ensure that in the local communities are not just informed but also involved and participating. I dont know the federal role in that where i have seen it most effectively considered has been at the local level. Okay. Good. Thank you. Mr. Buschur . Green gentrification is a concern for groundwork and the work we do within the city. Displacement is an issue with lawrence. There is a significant housing crisis. It is significant in affordability. I was intrigued by some of the concept of mr. Goldstein put forward earlier which called for enhanced low Income Housing tax credits associated with Brownfield Development actually make it more appealing to private Sector Development instead of coming in to do a 100 marker rate housing. That has other incentives which could be provided from the federal government to make sure that a certain share of those units created fall to those who are most unable to afford housing within that city. Thank you, sir. One last question this would also be a question for the entire panel. The question goes Something Like this. Before we discussed this earlier, the details of the policy issues, i wanted to ask you to share with us your experiences on what the Brownfield Community has meant with you. Can you give us some ideas from your experiences, some brief experiences or two that you have gone through and how the program has transformed not just land about the lives of People Living in affected communities . Can you share with us a memory or two . I could talk for quite awhile on that subject. I shared a couple of examples and my comment earlier. One that is very close to me is a little project in cerrillo, West Virginia. Tell people where that is. Its near the tip with kentucky and ohio. You can see both from there. There was a group called the Golden Girls Group home. Iron to live there someday in the distant, distant future. Dont tell my wife. Its a great name. It is a home that was built for its a place for them to get a second chance. They get safe housing and counseling. They get help with Educational Assistance and to find jobs. Its a wonderful program. They first approached me back some years ago about a particular piece of property. They said, we hope to build our facility here. I did some research on it. I am an environmental judge. I have a background in that. I did a look. There are some issues with it is projects. Do we have any other properties, . Yeah, it could even be the better location. They wanted to look into that. Its a vacant property that no one seems to know anything about. Lets find out for sure. We use the hannah brownfields grant. I was working with them and i said, lets do a phase one Environmental Assessment on the property just to see the history of the site and make sure there are no recognized environmental conditions. They did a phase one at that time. I suspected of the cost was no more than about 4,000. There were no recognized Environmental Issues on the property. That jumpstarted it and cleared the way for, i have no idea how many private investors who came in. The local businesses came in and said, we see you have done your homework and we want to be involved in this. The facility has been built. All these young ladies have a place to stay. Its a little stories like that who make your day, quite frankly. It got started because we did a little bit of background work just to make sure they were getting ready to get a pagan a poke. Getting ready to take on something that had environmental challenges that they would not be able to handle. Thats a great story. Ill stop there. Theres one particular project which comes to mind back in the 60s when the interstates were being built. What we call our downtown connector and atlanta was built, it split on the east side and the weston. Sounds familiar. All of the growth occurred in the east side. The only thing on the west side was a Little School called georgia tech. In an old hundred acre steel mill called the atlantic steel mill. It was operating on a skeletal crew, so it avoided some of the the late 90s, we put together a group which ultimately redeveloped that steel mill. The underutilized capacity for about 20 years. It sparked so many things on the west side of atlanta which now connects the east side in the west side up in that area. We call that 17th street. It created Grocery Stores and areas which had no Grocery Stores. It created affordable restaurants in areas where they have no place to eat. It resulted in Additional Schools being built. It resulted in significant infrastructure improvement. All of that was started, i see it planted of the Atlantic Station redevelopment. It did receive epas brownfield redevelopment of the year. Wonderful story. Thank you. Similar to the rest of the individuals up here, i have several stories. One that comes to mind is the manchester street park site, which is a former rail yard right on stevens pond in the arlington and mom of the district of lawrence. When we did the park, one of the city does the parked, all of the mills were quite dilapidated. There are now hundreds of units of housing around the pond and near the park. The real trial is going to be built. It had bots it. It connects at 30 miles of additional trails. Its at the beginning of the picket river green way. This serves as the hub for the hundreds of families that now call that middle section of home. Thank you. How about one more story from mr. Goldstein . Absolutely. There is a story which is being written right now, apartheid which is underway involving a 100yearold site, which is pretty old that older miami. Miami is not a much older from 100 years. [inaudible] slid into my i95. This particular site is bordered by booker t. Washington i school. It connects to the counties largest job engine. It has sat idle for over 30 years as a result of a pretty horrific spill of solvents from a chemical supply company. Using the federal Brownfields Program in the state Brownfields Program, one of our clients came in, declutter the site, cleaned it up, brought in the best in class Affordable Housing developer who was able to close because of the Affordable Housing incentives offered by the federal government. The fact that the site is in an opportunity zone, the fact that there are state brownfields Liability Protection, they are not going to invest 200 and 30 million in the sikh to build six entered and 12 units of Affordable Housing and put in a fresh food grocer in what is currently a food desert. You now have the connectivity between transit, schools, housing, and counties like as much [inaudible] this is more than environmental science. This is poetry. Thank you for that poetry. I want to ask a question. He came and spoke at our annual Democratic Senate retreat. We had it over the library of congress. He killed it. He was so good. He was delivering a stories that you told. I said to him, i was going to the challenger, mister president , we spoke many times. I never asked you why you were so effective as a speaker. He said, tom, what i do is i tend to tell stories. He said i tell estuaries of stories and can explain more complex concepts. People understand stories. You draw the men. They get it. He said, i like to use some self deprecating humor. When i do that, im usually fairly effective. I find it when i do those things, im very effective as well, i think the most effective part of a terrific hearing has been what you have close with. Those were wonderful stories. We can all look at our hands and our hearts around and we want to thank you for those. We want to thank you for being here with us and for mr. Goldstein. To your neighbors down there in florida, we are sending them some prayers for all of you, hoping that you come through this okay. We will be there will be a lot of interests and providing federal assistance from others around the country. They just want to do it because they want to be a good neighbor. Before we do a little bit of housekeeping, we have to let our senators and some of you who want to ask some more questions for the record, some who couldnt we want to ask questions for the record. We will ask our colleagues to submit written questions to the record through the business on wednesday, october 12th. We will compile those questions. We will send them out to each of you. We will ask you to reply by wednesday, october 26th of this year. I want to thank our staff on the majority and Minority Side for helping us put together a really good hearing. Its an important issue. Its been an important issue for a long time. About every member of this panel, democrat or public, and could tell us about each of stories which really would mirror what we had heard from in your clothes. I want to thank our staff for making it possible to have this great hearing and for those who were able to participate on our panel and our members of the committee. I think them for joining us, especially seen senator capito. Anything else . Anything else . All right. I would like to say going, going, gone. This hearing is adjourned. Thank you also much. God bless. Lessening the programs on cspan author cspan radio just got easier. Tell your smart speaker, play cspan radio. Listen to washington journal daily at 7 am eastern. Important congressional hearings and other Public Affairs events played throughout the day. We days at 5 pm and 9 pm eastern, catch washington today for a fast pace report of the stories of the day. Listen to cspan anytime. Tell your smart speaker, play cspan radio. Cspan powered by cable. 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