Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On Supplemental Security Income Program 20240708

For seniors and people who are disabled or blind. Benefit levels were last updated in the 1980s. I call this meeting to order. Senator young, thank you, Ranking Member of the subcommittee, for working with us to schedule this hearing. I appreciate the professionalism and confidence of your staff and my Office Working with all of you is really helpful. Thank you to chairman whiting for being part of this, the efforts to protect and strengthen this critical part of our Social Security system. Todays hearing on supplemental security income, ssi, is long overdue. This is the first hearing in the finance committee since 1998, before i was in the senate, for sure. That would be almost a quarter of a century. Theres not been a hearing in congress specifically about increasing benefits and eligibility since the reagan administration. In fact, that 1987, the last year or so of the reagan administration, in 1987, ways and means hearing called ssi, quote, the forgotten safety net. It was a fitting title then and it would be an even more fitting title now, given the decades of neglect that has hurt millions of americans. Nearly 8 Million People with disabilities and seniors rely on ssi to meet their basic needs, 8 Million People in our great country. The rules are needlessly complex, leaving seniors and other americans facing a maze of complicated and sometimes extraordinary rules at difficult times in their lives, and making it challenging for the Social Security administration to administer. Well hear more about that from our witnesses today. Even worse, ssis eligibility rules are even more outdated and illogical than they already were in 1987, when the program was created by congress 50 years ago, 1972, its purpose was clear to ensure the nations aged, blind, and disabled people would no longer have to subsist on below Poverty Levels. Now the people who would have longer have to subsist on programs, now the opposite is true, the eligibility rules literally havent been updated and punish them for any of their own efforts to build financial security. We want people to do a little better. Under this they lose money. Theyre punished if they try to save for an emergency, theyre punished if they try to find a parttime job, theyre punished if they accept food and shelter from generous family and community members, and theyre even punished if theyre married. It makes no sense, particularly these americans are treated to constant lectures about the value of work and selfsufficiency. Were told over and over by politicians that personal responsibility is a Central American value, yet if someone relies on ssi, someone who is relying on it saves even 1 more than the 2,000 threshold, they lose their benefits. It sends a pretty absurd message. Ssis outdated rules make it impossible for beneficiaries to live with dignity. Last year i talked with someone in northern ohio. Her sons benefits took a hit when an insurance policy she had in his name grew in value. She said it never should have happened. I felt it was unjust. Make no mistake, poverty in america is a policy choice, a policy by us. Its up to this committee, this congress, to finally make a different choice. Theres millions of seniors and people with disabilities living in poverty right now not because of their own choices, because of ours. Its why earlier this year i introduced the ssi restoration act with 20 cosponsors, including six senators from this committee. That bill would finally increase ssi benefit levels to the frad Poverty Level and it would simplify and update the eligibility rules so these americans are no longer punished for trying to build a better life for themselves. Recent analysis from the urban institute tells us the reforms would lift 3. 3 Million People out of poverty, cut poverty among ssi beneficiaries in half. The bill is supported by more than 100 national organizations, including aarp, the aflcio and even jpmorgan chase, who i know well from chairing the Senate Banking housing committee, supports increasing ssis asset limits. When you get the aflcio and jpmorgan on the same page, we may be on to something. We created this half a century ago as a key part of our system, one of the bedrooks of our society. People know if they or a loved one needs it, it will be there just like the promise of Social Security. For 30 years weve been breaking that promise. Now is the time for congress to do right by the 8 million americans relying on ssi who have been forgotten for far too long. Now is the time to finally restore this critical part of our Social Security system back to its real intent. Ive been working with senator schumer to ensure that at least long overdue updates to ssi are included in the infrastructure package and before i turn it over, i want to thank the hundreds of ssi beneficiaries that are following this hearing. Youve shared your stories on twitter with the demolished disabled policy hashtag. Youve written to the subcommittee about what improving ssi would mean to you and your families. Thank you for sharing those stories. I want you to know im listening, the subcommittee is listening, senator young is listening. Im sorry its taking this long for hearing to hear your voices. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing for leadership and members of your staff working with mine to get everything ready for today. I appreciate this opportunity to discuss and review the Supplemental Security Income Program or ssi. Now, more than ever, how every taxpayer dollar is spent really matters. Programs that dont achieve results have to be fixed. The ssi Program Needs examination to ensure its achieving its intended goals in a fiscally responsible manner. Is the program functioning as congress and taxpayers expect . We cant continue to just spend more and hope it helps. We need to review the programs effectiveness so we can ensure taxpayer resources are properly targeted. The goal of the ssi program is to provide assistance to elderly and disabled individuals who have limited financial resources. It is intended as the Social Security administration identifies as a program of last resort and beneficiaries who dont rely solely on ssi benefits to live. Although ssi was created with the elderly and low income in mind, today it primarily benefits non elderly disabled adults and children. The total number of beneficiaries has grown from 4. 8 million in 1990 to 6. 6 million in 2000, to 7. 8 million today. In turn, ssi spending has risen from 33 billion in 2000 to an estimated 61 billion in 2021. Ssi and Social Security Disability Insurance have been on the general accountability offices high risk list since 2003. Gao states that, quote, management attention and efforts are needed across the government to ensure that disability programs provide benefits in a timely manner and reflect current ideas about disability and achieve positive employment outcomes, unquote. The Social Security administration struggles to ensure current recipients remain qualified for these programs. Ssi continues to have a higher overpayment rate than other programs, and that is an unfair burden to taxpayers, as well as ssi recipients who incorrectly receive funds they may have to repay. While ssi faces challenges in administration, Labor Force Participation remains a pressing policy challenge. Our economy is feeling the impact acutely as we emerge from the covid19 pandemic. Health related issues have been top contributors to declines in Labor Participation in people in their prime working years, causing a perpetuation of poor health for many americans. This is why we need to focus on creating more Job Opportunities for working age americans with disabilities. However, the current patchwork of safety net programs for low income americans facing disabilities or Health Issues is flawed. Many of these people are productive individuals with the potential to make valuable contributions to their communities through work, and many wish to pursue benefits from the dignity of work, to the extent that they are able to do so. Without work, however, many will fall into poverty and may never again see the social and economic benefits associated with employment. In having this discussion today, congress and this subcommittee, they would be remiss not to acknowledge that some of our nations most important federal programs, including programs administered by ssa, are financed through dedicated Revenue Sources and managed through trust funds. Several of the largest trust funds are headed toward insolvency, worsened by the pandemic. According to the most recent Social Security trustees record, the Disability Trust funds will be exhausted in 2034, a year earlier than was projected last year. This spring i joined senator romney and a group of colleagues in reintroducing a time to rescue United States trust act or the trust act. Bipartisan legislation which would create a process to rescue the endangered federal trust funds and rein in the National Debt and how congress to put the programs on a stronger financial footing. If we dont act now, the trust funds in these programs will be exhausted, leading to significant benefit cuts under current law. And americas safety net will be significantly weakened. We believe in people and we believe most people dont want to be trapped. Ssi should be available for those in need with a goal of preparing as many individuals as possible for a life of dignity in the workforce. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on these topics and examining this program in greater detail today. Lastly, i would like to make note of the complete lack of process for the reconciliation bill being drafted by senate and house democrats. My republican colleagues on this committee have called for hearings in a markup of any reconciliation provisions in this committees jurisdiction. Americans deserve an open and transparent process. With that, i thank the witnesses for being here today and i look forward to hearing their testimony. Senator young, thank you. Weve been joined and we have four witnesses. I want to introduce, weve been joined by the distinguished chair of this committee, ron widen, the senior senator from oregon who has led the process and has been helpful encouraging this subcommittee hearing and helpful in how we move forward legislatively. Mr. Chairman, love to hear your remarks. Well, senator brown, big thanks to you for all of your leadership work in this area, and not just through this congress, but congress after congress after congress, people are walking an economic tightrope, balancing their food bill against their fuel bill, fuel bill against the rent bill. Senator brown has been there to say the federal government has got to have a sturdy safety net. So i appreciate his leadership and i also see on the screen senator young. I look forward to working on this issue as we have tried on so many in a bipartisan way. Mr. Chairman, you indicated it has been a long time since this committee or any committee has taken a close look at this absolutely crucial safety net program. Almost 8 million americans rely on supplemental security income, including 88,000 in my own home state. 10,000 of them are under the age of 18. So it is time for a crucial update for a program that is so important to so many who are so vulnerable. Now, ill wrap up with just a couple of quick additional thoughts. First, im very pleased to be a cosponsor of senator browns bill, update ssi, and i agree that the build back better plan now under consideration is a very opportune moment to make these necessary and essential improvements. I also want to thank chairman brown and others on the finance committee for cosponsoring a bill that ive been very involved in, the work without worry act. If it passes, that bill will provide needed peace of mind to a lot of individuals with disabilities who today face a disincentive to work and be in a position to live up to their full potential. Today the law says that some young people who received ssi could have their benefits cut if they decide to try work and make an income. In those cases were talking about modest benefits for people with disabilities, which is, i think, its clear and i see our friend, senator hasson here, who has done so much important work for vulnerable people. I think she would be the first to agree this is hardly an ex travagance. I hope well be able to update ssi in reconciliation and im also looking for opportunities to get work without worry across the finish line. I also want to emphasize, in addition to noting senator hassons terrific work in this area, senator cassidy is also a cosponsor of work without worry, so in the best tradition in the Senate Finance committee, chairman brown and senator young are bringing senators together, and on the issue of ssi, its not a close call. Its time to update the program and better meet the needs of those who find it so crucial. Thank you, chairman brown. Thank you, chairman, for your commence. I want to introduce the four witnesses. The introductions will be brief. The four witnesses, the director from the Government Accountability office, overseas federal disability programs. Welcome. We have the acting Deputy Commissioner for retirement policy and Social Security administration, responsible for overseeing ssi and ssa. Thank you for joining us. We have director of the Disability Justice initiative at the center for american progress, a former ssi beneficiary herself. Nice to see you. And senior policy analyst at the center of budget and policy priorities, the lead expert on Social Security and ssi at the center. So we will begin, and you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you for joining us. Im pleased to be here today to discuss our work on the ssi program. Ssa has faced longstanding challenges in administering ssi. Gao has issued a number of reports with recommendations for how ssa might address these challenges. While ssa has taken action on many of our recommendations, others remain unimplemented. My testimony today describes ssas challenges with, one, incentivizing employment for ssi recipients who wish to work and are able, and, two, preventing improper payments to ssi recipients, including overpayments. My testimony is based primarily on reports and results from the review of our ticket to work program to be issued later this fall. I will discuss work incentives for two ssi populations, transition ages who are 14 to 17 years old and working age adults. For transition age youth on ssi, ssa administers work incentives and other employment supports for youths moving into adulthood. But our work has found that few benefit from these incentives. These supports encourage work by allowing transitionage youth to keep at least some of their benefits even if they have earnings. However, gao analysis of data from 20122015 showed that less than 1. 5 benefitted from these incentives. This may be because ssi youth and their families are unaware of or do not understand the incentives or feel that work will negatively affect their benefits. Ssa has agreed with and implemented some of the recommendations we have made pertaining to work incentives for transitionage youth. Our recommendations would explore options to further connect youth to Employment Services have not been fully implemented. For working age adults on ssi who are able and wish to work, there is the ticket to work program, a voluntary program for disability beneficiaries that helps them obtain employment, increase earnings, and reduce depend aens on benefits. We conducted analysis where we used statistical techniques to match participants and nonparticipants and compare outcomes. Our preliminary analysis found that ssi participants had on average an increase in earnings of about 1,600 per year compared to similar nonparticipants. Further, we found that from 2002 through 2015, five years after participating in the ticket. About 4 of ssi participants will left the disability roles due to earnings from their work compared to 2 of similar nonparticipants. Nonetheless, we also found that 51 did not report any earnings at all. They face a number of dis incentives, such as loss of cash and medical benefits, two, complexity of rules, and, three, fear of overpayments. Overpayments can occur when beneficiaries who work do not timely report earnings to ssa or ssa delays in adjusting their benefit amounts. Overpayments are more common for ssi recipients, and especially those who are working. Ssa estimated that in fiscal year 2019, it made approximately 4. 6 billion in ssi overpayments. We estimate that from 2002 through 2015 ticket participants were twice as likely to receive overpayments as similar non participants and that includes both ssi and di participants. Overpayments may be especially burdensome to ssi recipients because they may not be aware they were overpaid and may have spent the money. Sss Inspector General have made recommendations, but challenges remain. In april of 2020 we recommended that ssa develop a process in measure the effectiveness of its corrective actions for improper payments. Ssa agreed this priority recommendation remeans unimplemented. Sss oig has reported they have not resolved lags in reported earnings, despite making some progress over the years. Ssa is taking steps to address overpayments. For fiscal year 2021, they named improving Program Integrity as a focus area. For example, ssa has online tools that allow individuals to make wage reports making it easier for recipients to comply with requirements. As Congress Considers reforms to ssi, opportunities exist to encourage work for those who are able and want to and reduce the burden of overpayments. This completes my prepared statement. I look forward to your questions. And i apologize, i introduced you incorrectly. Sorry about that. You are recognized for five minutes. Chairman brown, Ranking Member young and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to discuss supplemental Income Program or ssi. I am the acting Deputy Commissioner for policy and research at the Social Security administration. The ssi program is a vital safety net for people who have limited income and resources and are elderly and disabled. We have administered ssi since the early 1970s when congress created a program to replace several state running maintenance programs. We currently pay about 8 Million People federal benefits every month. In the calendar year 2021, the maximum benefit for a Single Person with no income is 794 per month, or about 75 of the federal poverty line for a oneperson household. In addition, ssa eligibility provides automatic eligibility for medical assistance and is a gateway to other state and federal programs such as food assistance. To be eligible for ssi, a person must have have accountable resources, eligible resources must have 3,000 or less. Resources or assets, a person can use to support themselves such ago bank accounts. Some resources are excluded. The law requires us to determine a persons eligibility and benefit amount for every month using information we verify with independent and collateral sources. The more accountable income a person has, the less their monthly benefits will be. We must also consider the income and resources of spouses and parents who live with the beneficiary. The law requires us to count cash income and support and maintenance. This support is the value of food given to a beneficiary and the value of rent, electricity bills, and other shelter expenses paid by someone else. To figure out how much to pay, the law requires that we exclude various types of income they receive in a month. The law excludes all or part of 86 parts of income. Moving, a friend giving them groceries, picking up a few extra hours at work can affect the monthly benefit. We take seriously our responsibility to pay people the correct amount of benefits. We have a variety of tools in place to identify incorrect situations where we are paying people too much or too little. We regularly conduct reviews called nonmedical redeterminations that detect changes in a persons situation and ensure that our information is current. We provide automated options for beneficiaries to regularly report wages, including an automated telephone system and mobile app and we obtain data exchanges from various private and governmental agencies to detect when payments are not collect. These include information about bank accounts, wages, selfemployment, unemployment, federal pensions and va benefits. Thank you for holding this hearing and raising awareness of the ssi program. During the pandemic applications for ssi have been lower than prepandemic levels. We are committed to ensuring that everyone who qualifies for benefits receive them. This year we launched a paid National Public Service Announcement campaign on tv, radio and social media. And we have also enlisted local communitybased organizations across the country to help us reach people who may be eligible for ssi. Over3,000 groups have committed to helping us identify and assist people who are interested in applying for ssi. The groups are helping us by either identifying these people so we can obtain an application for benefits or by helping the person complete an application for benefits and we have designated employees to work with these groups, review the applications and evidence and obtain applications or process the applications provided. Finally, were using data to identify people who are receiving Social Security benefits who may be eligible for additional benefits from the ssi program and we are sending these notices to let them know they can apply for ssi. We expect to send about 1. 4 million of these notice it is in total by june of 2022. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today, and i will be happy to answer any questions that you may have. Thank you. I rarely comment on witnesss testimony right after opening statements, but when you said that enrollment is lower during the pandemic, that is really telling, because clearly the need is greater, but the difficulty, apparently, well talk more about that. Welcome and glad youre joining us, thank you. Thank you, chairman brown, Ranking Member young, and members of the subcommittee for the invitation to appear before you today. I am the director of the Disability Justice initiative at the center for american progress. Im here to speak on behalf of almost 7. 8 million disabled recipients of ssi, who rely on the program to help keep a roof over their heads. Many continue to struggle with the daily living experience and outdated rules due to the fact that the program has had few updates since its creation in 1972. This discussion is very personal to me. Although i am now working at a major nonpartisan policy institute, i used to rely on supplemental security insurance to pay for rent, utilities, gas and food. When i graduated from high school, there were few jobs that were accessible to me. Using a wheelchair meant that i couldnt find work in detail, the restaurant industry, and many other entrylevel jobs. I was encouraged to go to college to gain skills needed to find more accessible stable employment. But that meant at least four years without steady income. Ssi paid for housing and food costs, particularly during the summer when my scholarship funds and student aid ran out. Yet the benefit level was extremely low, forcing me to max out credit cards and take out significant loans to cover my expenses. Bills that im still paying today. But even after getting my masters degree in 2009, it took me almost a year to finally land a fulltime job. I was denied numerous positions because places did not want to hire me as someone in a wheelchair. I was denied opportunities to volunteer. By the end, i applied to over 100 jobs in 2009. It wasnt until january of 2010 that i was employed by the North Carolina rehabilitation services. My time as a rehab councillor showed that i was not alone in my struggles with the ssi program. I spent six years talking to disabled clients trying to help them navigate the system. The first hurdle was trying to apply to the program. Thousands of people die every year waiting for disability benefits as a result or go bankrupt. The current application process is so cumbersome its often said that you need a law degree to access disability benefits. Ive walked client after client through the difficult process, sending medical documentation and statements of disability to the Social Security office. For individuals lucky enough to navigate the application process and be found eligible for benefits, most recipients still find they are unable to afford daily living expenses. The current max benefit of 794 per month is just threequarters of the federal poverty line for an individual and does not come anywhere close to covering the average rental costs for a onebedroom apartment in the United States, which was 1,466 per month in july 2021. I worked with ssi recipients who frequently experienced setbacks due to the stressors of navigating the system. They are too ill to work without a stable support system and medicaid coverage, which ssi made them automatically eligible. Many spend hours navigating various other safety net programs due to the difficulties finding Affordable Housing and food insecurity. Current ssi policies are archaic, benefits are way too low, which causes harm. While the program used to be the most successful Antipoverty Program for disabled people, it now traps them in poverty. Many individuals have no other options to support themselves, which forces them into perpetual evictions and instability. The Biden Administration committed to making changes to the ssi program, including increasing the federal benefit rate, raising asset limits, updating the provisions and removing marriage penalties. Through the leadership of chairman brown, the ssi restoration act provides dynamics to revitalizing the program. They have pushed to ensure ssi is not left behind in the build back better bill. Long overdue updates to the program could, according to the urban institute, raise 3. 3 million americans out of poverty. Congress has a monumental opportunity right now to help a community that has seen significantly high death rates, unemployment and poverty rates over the last few years. The program was originally created for the nations aged, blind and disabled people would no longer have to live on below poverty incomes. You have the chance to help millions by revitalizing such a Critical Program. Thank you, and im open for questions. Thank you. Welcome, good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. Chairman brown, Ranking Member young, members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for the opportunity to testify today. As Congress Considers economic recovery legislation, it should seize the opportunity to update and simplify ssi. As youve heard from the other witnesses, ssi is woefully out of date. Some of its key features have not been updated in decades. This leaves many needy people ineligible for benefits and others without enough to meet basic needs. Ssi also has complex and intrusive rules that are hard for ssa to administer and burdensome for beneficiaries. Shortcomings disproportionately harm people of color, who are more likely to meet ssis financial and medical requirements because of Persistent Health and economic disparities. Like the other witnesses, i thank chairman brown and others on the subcommittee for their leadership in proposing the ssi restoration act. It would dramatically cut poverty among seniors and people with disabilities. Give beneficiaries more dignity and independence, and improve Program Integrity. While the emerging house bill includes important provisions to improve health care for seniors and people with disabilities, it does not yet include any provisions to fill the income gap left by inadequate ssi benefits. As a reconciliation process moves forward, congress should update this Critical Program. As others have explained, ssi provides ll cash assistance to 7. 8 Million People who are disabled or elderly and have little income and few assets. Ssi benefits are very low and should be raised. The maximum federal benefit is just 794 a month, only threequarters of the federal poverty line. That leaves about four in ten ssi beneficiaries in poverty. As for ssis rules, they are outdated and overly complicated. Ssis income disregards have been frozen for almost 50 years, since ssi was enacted in 1972. Beneficiaries who work can only keep 65 of their earnings, after which their benefits are reduced for 1 for every 2 they earn. Those reductions take effect when the total incomes of beneficiaries are still below the poverty line, which keeps even working beneficiaries in poverty. Ssi only allows beneficiaries to keep 20 of any other benefits they receive. This concludes Social Security benefits, which about onethird of beneficiaries receive. Those Social Security benefits average about 500 per month on paper, but ssi beneficiaries may only keep 20 of them. Likewise, ssis asset limits have been frozen for over 30 years, since 1989. Ssi beneficiaries can keep just 2,000 in savings, less than people need to weather an emergency, let alone provide disability or invest in their futures. Ssis complicated support and maintenance rules require beneficiaries to disclose any material help that they receive from family and friends, whether groceries or a place to sleep. Every 1 worth of assistance shrinks their ssi benefits by 1. No other federal program counts in kind support when determining benefit eligibility or levels. Finally, ssis rules penalize beneficiaries who marry one another. They receive lower benefits and have lower asset limits than if they stayed unmarried. The restoration act would raise benefits to line, update income and asset limits as if they september up with inflation from the start and repeal the inkind support and maintenance rules and eliminate marriage penalties. It would left over 3 Million People above the poverty line. It would allow beneficiaries to work, marry, save and accept help from their loved ones without the harsh penalties of the Current System and it would reduce errors caused by overly complex and outdated rules. Updates ssi is necessary to ensure that low income seniors and people with disabilities have what they need to afford rent, food and basic needs. Congress should add improvements into the build back better legislation even if the package cannot accommodate the full ssi restoration act. Thank you. Thank you for the insight and illumination on an issue that isnt talked about enough in society and certainly not talked about in the halls of Congress Nearly enough. Let me start with you. Your comments about the 2,000 and the 3,000. The asset limits havent changed for 30 years and its pretty unbelievable. Talk what difference it can make having Emergency Savings when it comes to achieing any kind of economic stability. Talk that through. Sure. These asset limits were set back in the 70s. We know now that having adequate savings is a really important way to bring people out of poverty. It makes sense. If you cant award to weather an emergency, then you could get stuck in poverty. What if you dont have enough money, for example, to repair your car . Then you lose your transportation to your job. Another reason savings are so important is to invest in your future. If you dont have enough money to do additional job training, then you would miss out on work opportunities. As mias testimony so eloquently described. We know now that keeping people below a certain level of savings literally traps them in poverty and we know that now in a more real way than we did back in the 1970s when these limits were first set. Talk to me about asset limits. Are there specific types of resources there are going to be asset limits. We want to raise them dramatically. Are there certain types of resources we should be excluding like retirement accounts . What kinds of resources should be excluded . Thats not thing thats changed a lot since the 70s. It was signed into law in 1972. At that point i. R. A. s did not exist. People would typically receive a pension from their job and werent expected to save toward their own retirement. Now they are. Ssi continues to penalize people who try to save for their future to provide for their older years. Other programs including snap exclude all Retirement Savings from their asset limits. How interesting is that . We have so few defined pension benefits now that that didnt count against your asset. Now we have something inferior to a defined pension. That is some kind of 401 k look alike that counts against your asset limits. Share your experiences of trying to make ends meet on ssi, 794 is not enough to live on. What are the consequences of this low benefit level . What would increased benefits mean at least to the federal Poverty Level . Having lived on ssi, i know personally that current ssi benefits are not enough to make ends meet. Disabled people like any other individual need to pay rent, utilities, food, clothing, transportation and all of the other things that you need to be able to survive. They also have the added expenses of medical costs, home modifications and other disability related expenses. The National Disability institute reported that it costs disabled people 28 more to live at the same standard as their peers. When we look at the average rental cost and we look in july, it was 1466. In august it was 1633. That means that the max benefit of 794 would not even cover rent. That means disabled people spend a good portion of their life applying to other safety net programs including section 8, snap and reduced utility programs. Ssi beneficiaries are always living on the cusp of homelessness or institutionalization causing significant stressors that can negatively affect their health and wellbeing. Increasing the level to at least Poverty Level would give more beneficiaries less to worry about and focus on their health and stability. Thank you for that good insight. My time is expired. I have questions but my time is up. Ill turn it to senator young. Thank you, chairman. Ill be asking a question mr. Evangelista of the Social Security services administration. Id like to dive a bit into ssi benefits and the federal Poverty Level. Weve heard in testimony today that current ssi benefits are not enough to rent an apartment or raise beneficiarys income above that federal Poverty Level. However, as the Social Security administration identifies, ssi is intended as assistance of last resort. Sse takes into account all income and resources an individual has or can access including wages and earnings, Social Security benefits, Unemployment Compensation and other forms of income. Ssi benefit eligibility also excludes consideration of other forms of income such as state or locally funded assistance based on needs, rent subsidies, nutritional assistance and many other resources. Mr. Evangelistas testimony contains pages of exclusions showing 86 ssi resource and exclusions that arent taken into account for somebody with ssi benefits. Im laying the foundation for a question. What is the intention of the ssi program, mr. Evangelista . Is it a sole source of income for a beneficiary to pay rent and to live and obtain medical care and buy food . Thank you. The goal of the ssi program is to be a vital safety net for those who have limited income and resources. The ssi eligibility provides a cash benefit and also provides a gateway for other federal and state benefits such as medical assistance. Okay. So its not intended to be a sole source of income to a beneficiary . Its a vital safety net for those who have limited income and resources and are either elderly or disabled. Which would not be a soul source of income . There could be other sources of income but we would have to count other sources of income against the benefit for ssi. Okay. Thank you. What data are available from the Social Security administration on the full array of resources that ssi beneficiaries have on average since measuring their income and its relation to the Poverty Level based solely on what they get from ssi seems to be somewhat misleading . So there are many, as i said in my testimony, many resource exclusions. Every month we have to evaluate a persons circumstances and look at the changing eligibility that they have in terms of their resources, including income and their living arrangements. In terms of the data, we certainly have data on what individuals would have in their records. Again, we have to count certain resources. The statute contains what resources we can exclude and what resources we have to count against. Your testimony provides information about the work program. This began nearly 20 years ago. Its a program that allows ssa to pay Service Providers to help people achieve employment outcomes. Ssa is perhaps not closely followed many recommendations offered by gao. What steps could be taken to help ensure ssi recipients who want to work are encouraged to do so . Thank you for that question. Gao has been calling attention to this issue for several decades, starting in 1996 when we published a report on how disability programs were lagging in the promotion of return to work. Up until present in terms of our ongoing work looking at the ticket to work program which will be issued later this fall. But most recently before that our 2017 report on transition age youth found that more could be done to connect ssi youth to our vocational rehabilitation services. We recommended that ssa explore options to increase these connections and we highlighted the ticket to work program because it is an established program with structures already in place to connect adults to the services. The idea would be to extend that program which is currently not available to youth. At the time ssa officials told us the agency did not have Legal Authority to directly refer ssi youth to the services. So establishing that ssas Legal Authority exists to direct youth to the providers or clarifying that they could be eligible for the ticket to work program could potentially help create more opportunities for youth. In our ongoing examination of the ticket to work program we identified a number of challenges that ssi recipients faced in working. These include, as a number of the witnesses have mentioned, fear of loss of cash or medical benefits. For ssi beneficiaries reduced. There can be a fear of overpayments. That can be a barrier to participating in employment. In 2018 the office of the Inspector General reported that of a sample of beneficiaries they looked at, 79 were overpaid. Our preliminary work on the Ticket Program found that ticket participants were twice as likely to receive overpayment as nonparticipants. Also just the complexity of work incentives. A number of witnesses have alluded to this, that ssa itself has found that the complexity of work rules constituted a barrier to returning to work for beneficiaries and an administrative challenge for ssa. Im grateful for the comprehensive response. Ill follow up with some written questions. I know there are some other members wanting to ask questions. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much. Senator casey of pennsylvania. Thank you for having this hearing. Were grateful youre spotlighting these issues being raised at the hearing and grateful for your work. I want to say how much i appreciate her testimony but also to assert shes got kind of a triple credential. Youve been an ssi recipient. Youve worked for years with people with disabiliies to secure employment and youve also been a Public Policy advocate. I think your qualifications are without question and i want to direct my first question to you and ask you in particular about ssi policies and employment. Youve experienced the fear of exceeding the ssi asset limit or the federal benefit rate limit. We know that limit right now is 794. A couple of years ago back in december of 2014 as part of a tax bill we passed the able act which i was leading at the time with senator burr from North Carolina. We passed into law a provision that created able accounts almost like 529 accounts for disabilities just like we have them for higher ed for years, but not until 2014 did we have them for the disability. These accounts are one way to address this asset limit issue. And now we have over 50,000 people across the country who have opened these able accounts to be able to accrue assets beyond the 2,000 limit. We know that the ssi restoration act would also address this concern by increasing the asset limit to 10,000. With approximately 26 of the 61 Million People with a disability living in poverty, we have to address and improve their Economic Health as we consider these issues. So my basic question is what should we do to remove the barriers to work and to incentivize employment . There needs to be an understanding that the income with regards to asset limits dont work outside of each other. They work in tandem with each other. The income rules have never changed since the programs inception and we know the asset limits, the last time it was updated was in 1989. Yes, there are these programs that are available like the able act, like student earned income exclusion. The problem is that it excludes a number of individuals who are on ssi. So it unfortunately doesnt cover every single recipient that may need to utilityize those programs. The able act account disability started after the age of 26. Theres also a 14,000 a year limit. It also specifically addresses individuals who are getting assistance from family members. Its very hard for an individual to save any money from their income and put it towards that account. Because as i said earlier in my testimony, its just really hard to save on that basic income. So i think what we really need to do is reduce some of these archaic rules that make it so hard for individuals to understand how to utilize these services and how to navigate the system. Like i said earlier, you kind of have to be a lawyer to understand that or a vocational rehabilitation counsellor. Its difficult. Increase the asset limit. Thats going to reduce some of these overpayment issues and some barriers for individuals to feel like they can go work. Thanks very much. We look forward to working with you on these issues. Mr. Chairman, im giving back a couple seconds. Senator langford is recognized. Thank you. I very much thank all the witnesses. I appreciate your testimony today and your engagement. Can i just pick up where senator casey left off on what discourages people from actually getting back into the workforce and those income limits. You were talking about the income limits and they should increase. Can i ask a question to continue on that same process while were picking your brain . What should those income limits be . If were talking about an increase to an income limit, what should that look like, two what . Thank you for that question. I actually dont have the specific amounts on hand right now, but i could send you something to give you a better understanding of that. Thats great. Anyone else want to try to jump in . What should those income limits be . Its purposeful when youre able to work to get back to work. You engage in the community. It helps with your own personal wellbeing as well as your productivity in the workforce. What should those income limits be . Im happy to jump in here. The ssi restoration act would restore ssi to its original provisions, just indexing them to inflation. Inflation is about four or five times as high as 1972 levels. Another way of looking at it is thinking about what do we know now that we didnt know in 1972 and what are our goals now . Do we want to encourage work . Do we want to make sure people who do work can support themselves . Its worth considering at a higher income threshold. Theres a period where you can test out your ability to work in the labor market without fear of losing benefits or health care coverage. I think contemplating other changes like that that could encourage people to work, especially young people aging out of the child benefits and getting their start in the labor market, giving them that opportunity. Thats helpful. As i talk to individuals on ssi or ssdi, its very common to hear i would return to work but im afraid of losing my health care. Its also interesting the number of people i talk to that are single living together with someone else that are on benefits. When i say youve been together for years, whats kept you from being married . Im a big proponent of being married. I love my wife. Almost always they say im afraid of losing benefits and the income piece of it. It seems like were discouraging work and marriage and families and the stability that brings. Does anyone else agree or disagree with that . Yeah, i absolutely agree with that. Its really important to think about goals. What do we want to encourage . Do we want to encourage work . We shouldnt have rules that penalize work. Do we want to encourage marriage . We shouldnt have rules that penalize marriage. Mr. Evangelista, you mentioned in your testimony ssi benefits dropped during the pandemic time period as far as the number of people that actually enrolled in that. Is there an expectation that theres going to be a lot of people start to enroll after we see the pandemic subside, which god willing some day we will . Is that an expectation . If so, how are we preparing for that . Thank you for your question. We did notice the decrease in the ssi applications. During the pandemic we implemented a nationwide outreach strategy to actually reach some of these people who we think may be underserved in our communities. Some of the things were to address this is expanding our collaboration with community organizations, meeting with them regularly, hearing about the challenges in identifying solutions. Weve also launched a paid National Public Service Announcement on radio, tv and social media to actually try to get to children with impairments, people with limited income who are partnering with these organizations and working with these organizations. They have agreed to assist us in helping to take applications from people who are interested in applying for ssi and certainly referring people to us or leads to us. Weve established designated employees to work with these organizations to complete these claims. Were going to evaluate this very closely and were hoping to see whether or not theres an increase in the application rate moving forward. Mr. Chairman, may i have 30 seconds to ask one additional question . Of course. I wanted to ask about kids as theyre transitioning into adulthood. Theres been a lot of questions about the hearing time where they have to go through the reapplication process. Ive talked to some of the professionals that work in this area, and theyve said theres a smaller number of people that qualify for post 18yearold ssi benefits but it seems to take two years to actually get to the hearing, go through the process based on the backlog of the time period. That could be somewhat dated. Maybe thats changed during the pandemic. Is there a way as theyre transitioning from the minor ssi program into the Adult Program they could actually be put on the top of the list and get a decision faster than other people waiting in the process since a small number of people actually qualify so they get an answer faster . Is that being considered . Senator, thank you for your question. I would have to take that back to see whether or not thats being considered. Perhaps i could provide that for the record. Thatd be just fine. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the extra minute. I found it fascinating that you said it penalizes work, it penalizes marriage and it penalizes savings. We obviously have work to do. Senator young, if its okay with you as Ranking Member, why dont you and i take a short second round . I know senator cassidy and bennett have checked in. I dont think theyre there now. We could do a short second round. I want to take off something you said, senator young, when you asked ms. Kerda a question about enrollment and under payments and overpayments. If we increased asset limits and eliminated ssis socalled inkind maintenance and support rules which we heard some of the poorest ssi beneficiaries were receiving help from loved ones to make sure they have enough to eat and a roof over their head. Would this reduce ssi underpayments and overpayments . And if so, could you explain that in some detail . Sure. We havent done any work on this issue specifically but it is sort of a mathematic truism that if you raise the threshold for income and earnings, fewer people would automatically be in overpayment status. But there are some effects you need to keep in mind. You know, on the one hand in the short run fewer would be in that overpayment or underpayment status. But overall the Program Costs obviously are going to increase. Because what was once an overpayment subject to recovery is now a program cost. In addition to the extent that raising the limit expands the population of individuals who might be eligible for benefits, it might also increase the number of ssi recipients. Even after raising the limits, over and underpayments might continue to be an issue if the system for determining individual eligibility continues to work the same way with benefits changing as earnings or living arrangements change. They just may be occurring at a higher level. Thank you. Your testimony notes that about half of eligible people are currently being left behind by ssi because the application process is so difficult to navigate. Weve seen the program go to historic lows during the pandemic. How concerned are you about these numbers and what are we doing to make sure that eligible people are able to access this Critical Program in the time of most dire need . This is such an important question. I think the pandemic has brought some focus on a problem that has existed really for decades. As you noted, during the pandemic applications and awards for ssi are down to historic lows. That, we think, is not because the need is any less. In fact, the need is greater as people have been losing jobs and becoming sick and sometimes disabled for the longterm. But field offices have remained closed to the public for the most part since march of 2020. So that certainly has been a factor that has kept applications down. But this is a problem that really predates all of that as well. Careful studies have looked at who is eligible for the program. For example, a few years ago ssa commissioned a study from the institute of medicine about children with Mental Health disabilities. It looked across six different major diagnosis at low income children who had significant disabilities and whether they applied for the program. They found about half across all these major diagnoses even applied for the program. Another study on low birth weight babies found the same thing. Over half did not even apply for the program. Among people who do apply, only 4 in 10 are awarded benefits even after all levels of appeal. So its very difficult to receive these benefits. Mr. Evangelista talked about some of ssas efforts. I think theyre starting to take some steps to improve outreach. Its extraordinarily complicated to apply for ssi, particularly for the disability program. I think often people need assistance. Were talking about people with a lot of barriers, people who have sometimes cognitive impairments or limited education levels, people with language barriers. We need to really address all of these barriers that people have to applying and give them the assistance they need in order to access the program. We need to do a lot more because there are many people who are entitled to these benefits who are not receiving them. Thats just as much of a problem if not more of a problem than overpayments. Thank you. Senator young, if you want to take a second round here. Thank you. Thank you, chairman. Ssa recently launched a vulnerable population Liaison Program to connect eligible individuals to benefits. Following the onset of the pandemic, ssa increased outreach to certain groups recognizing that shutdowns of inperson service at field offices created heightened barriers to access. Mr. Evangelista, it gives field offices play in connecting individuals to the benefits theyre eligible for. When do we anticipate that field offices will reopen . Thank you, senator young, for your question. Since the beginning of the pandemic our offices have been open primarily for inperson appointment only services. As you mentioned, we did have to limit walkin traffic or unscheduled visits to protect the public and the employees who served them. We are working on our reentry plans, working in concert with the administration, working under the guidance of the cdc. Well continue to work through that. While were doing that, were going to keep focusing on making sure that our services are accessible to those who need it through that outreach program. So no projected timeline right now in terms of opening the field offices . As i mentioned, well continue to work through our inoffice appointments and increase the availability there and well continue to work through those reentry plans. So youre working on it but theres no projected timeline, is that accurate . Thats accurate. I dont have a time frame. Thank you for answering the question. Mr. Evangelista, in response to recent questions from finance committee staff, ssa officials have said that the vulnerable population Liaison Program is an ongoing initiative that ssa will continue to monitor and evaluate to determine its effectiveness. How are you monitoring for effectiveness . What constitutes effectiveness through this program . And to envision this vpl as a temporary initiative . I think one of the things were going to assess moving forward is [ no audio ] their access to the community and the capacity to help us take those ssi applications. Again, this is an ongoing initiative and were going to continue to monitor it for effectiveness to make sure we can reach out to these individuals who could potentially be eligible for ssi. Using metrics to measure effectiveness . If so, what metrics are you using to measure success . Thank you for the question. As i mentioned earlier, were in our early stages of doing this. One of the metrics were going to measure is to see whether or not there is an increase in the ssi application rate. Kind of still early on in the process, i would say thats one of the key metrics is, is there an increase in the application rate moving forward. So directionally, would an increase in recipients constitute effectiveness or does it have to hit some threshold before you say the vpl program is effective . Thats a great question. Certainly all of those who apply for benefits will not necessarily be approved for benefits. But i think right now what were going to focus on is making sure were making our Services Accessible to everyone who is interested in applying. And then at a certain point were going to [ no audio ] so its a little bit early in the process to come to those conclusions but were certainly going to monitor for effectivens of this outreach. Its unclear to me why its early to come up with success metrics or at least a preliminary range. I think most organizations would come up with success metrics and then if they needed to be changed a rationale would be given for changing the metrics. Why is it different at ssa . Or perhaps as a management exercise im wrong . Im open to being wrong, sir. Thank you for the question. No. I think we take these metrics seriously. We do want to measure the effectiveness and we want to make sure we are reaching the targeted population that we think may be eligible for ssi. In terms of the actual metrics, senator, let me take the rest of this question back and see whether or not we could provide Additional Details for the record. Okay. Just lastly because i asked if you just answer yes or no, do you envision it has a temporary initia initiative . Were going to consider it an ongoing initiative. Were going to monitor effectiveness. [indiscernible] sounds like youre keeping your options open. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman . Thank you, senator young. Thank you to my colleagues and our witnesses for being here today. I just want to recount some things we heard and i think theres general agreement sort of from all of us on the senate side and in both parties and from the witnesses. We were told ssi beneficiaries are living on the cusp of homelessness or institutionalization. Thats shameful and underscores the urgency for congress to act. Because its overcomplicated and outdated rules, it discourages work. The income disregard thresholds are too low and the rules are so complicated that ssi beneficiaries are afraid to go back to work. It discourages savings. The asset limits havent been updated for close to 40 years. The 2,000 limit means beneficiaries cant meaningfully save for emergency, a car breaking down or other things. It discourages marriage. If ssi beneficiaries get married they receive lower benefits than they would if they had stayed unmarried. These have a concrete effect on beneficiaries lives. The rules are so complicated ssa has difficulty administering the program. Its long pastime that we restore ssi to its original purpose. Thank you all for being here. Senator young, thanks for your cooperation. All four witnesses made major contributions. Thank you so much. The hearing is adjourned. Thanks, folks. Thank you. Watch American History tv saturday on cspan 2 and find a full schedule on your Program Guide. Or watch at cspan. Org history. Book tv every sunday on cspan 2 features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. At noon on in depth georgetown law professor cheryl cassen will be our guest live taking your calls on discussing Race Relations and inequality in america. At 10 00 p. M. Eastern, California Democratic congressman ro canna looks at suggestions on how to close the gap. Watch book tv every sunday on cspan 2 and find a full schedule on your Program Guide or watch online any time at booktv. Org. The Senate Banking Committee Held a confirmation hearing for lal brainard. This is 2 1 2 hours