Transcripts For CSPAN3 NASA Administrator Testifies On Presidents 2023 Budget 20220722

[background sounds]. Good morning, the subcommittee on commerce science related agency on the Appropriations Committee will come to order, and senator moran, is on his way we think and so in the interest of trying to keep this hearing on time, i want to go ahead and began. For the record we will no longer take people asking questions and virtual formats so people wont be here who person and we will take people in the order of arrival for questions. This is a Pivotal Moment with disparity and security of the United States and democracy around the world, as a defense subcommittee which is also meeting right now, secretary of defense lloyd austin and chairman of the joint chief of staff mark millie, are discussing sources needed to make that military challenges from russia, china and others around the world. With the agencies that are represented here that each of you represent National Aeronautics and space administration, nasa and National Science foundation, and assess, and are also key to standing up to the challenges facing our country and so gives me great pleasure this morning to welcome nasa administrator bill nelson and a director, and im going to tell you, for hes of statements and so thank you both for being here this morning is really going to see you again and im delighted that Ranking Member has joined us. Just to clarify again for the record, we have about four hearings going on in the senate this morning and so we are not sure who will be able to attend but senator brandon i have lots of questions and so we will be able to cover so many issues that are going to be important as we look at the appropriations process that programs that each of you manager on the frontlines with the nations cybersecurity, training future technicians, explores and entrepreneurs, developing industries of the future, and understanding potential threat of Climate Change and this subcommittee once the next pair of boots on the moon, the next nobel prizewinning discovery, and the next paradigm changing Technology Company to be made in the usa, or from my perspective, better yet the grant stadiums for senate moran feels about this same way about his home state of kansas we know in New Hampshire manufacturers what it takes to cut is basement local Companies Much like micro any contract for nasa, is a continued contributor of technology and supplies to these programs. But we cannot take our continued leadership are correct printed competitors including china, especially china, are missing heavily in scientific and technological innovation if we want to sustain our scientific of leadership in the economic Austerity National security that affords we have to continue to keep peace. When the u. S. Government was shut down in 2019, we parted and bunkering in a disagreement in the senate over the budget, and china was landing on the dark side of the moon. Were not going to be able to compete if that is the choice that we have. And i focus on the past, but we need to learn from it so that we do not repeat it most critical, is a reminder was at stake in this global constitution as i am pleased that the fiscal year 2022 provided the largest increase in more than a decade to 730 million increase for nasa and also please do the congress is currently in the midst of a bipartisan conference on significant legislation to advance the mission of both of these agencies, the u. S. Nation and competition act which is the name of the Senate Version of the bill. President biden fiscal year 2023, budget, for nasa they build on this progress in the keep the nation moving in the right direction it vanessa, the fy 2023 request is nearly 26 million increase of 1. 9 billion Great Percent above the fy 202022 enacted level in the presence request was 10. 5 billion for nsf, this is an increase of 1. 65 billion or 19 percent above the fy 2020 enacted level and there is a lot to like in these requests and i am sure that each of you would like more but i think that this is an increase that can be put to good use and another both agencies plan to expand Climate Research it vanessa his asking for 2. 4 billion in Science Research and more than 500 million to lessen the impact of the aviation. And assess the budget includes a total of 1. 55 billion for climate, and Clean Energy Research as we work to enhance her Energy Security and create Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy jobs. And most important, the request investing in people with 150 million engagement and nasa in 1. 4 billion for nsf renamed for Stem Education and this is a major priority for me, because i have seen how critical it is to our economy and New Hampshire and the country and tested a Ribbon Cutting undercutting yesterday which makes critical parts for the f35 and a lot of war fighting equipment had a they are hoping to hire several hundred more jobs in New Hampshire, i asked them what your biggest challenge was it was workforce, and finding those stem educated workers who can come in and do the job come the engineers on the scientists that they need, and so the work that youre doing in that area, both nasa and nsf is really critical and this is of course point of pride for New Hampshire as well because of the home of alan shepard, both Granite State or sandy emblem of Stem Education and the same sentiment is shared by our academic institutes that are highly respected around the country for the Aerospace Research innovation and as we were discussing, senator administered nelson part of the university of New Hampshire state Science Center recently selected by nasas re search the her son and environment one of the two winners of the medium competition, the 250 million more to improve her understanding of the dynamics of the sun, connection to the earth, and the universe pretty nasas budget request will land the next humans on the moon, and return soil samples from mars, while nsf seeks to create jobs and maintain u. S. Leadership on critical technology, that will define the next several decades and technologies like Artificial Intelligence and quantum computing, Technology Innovations in partnership and i really look forward to hearing more about that in your testimony and there also a few challenging items in these requests, in particular concern the most constant nasa ilio physics and overall lack of resources to address recent decay surveys in astrophysics and Planetary Science at both agencies so in conclusion i believe that we must continue to look towards the next frontiers of science in space and im looking forward to the launch of one this summer and we understand of the senator moran is also looking forward to that and i support nasa that is it under innocent because these agencies inspire us with driven research and exploration ten i think curiosity is one of the most important aspects of the human condition and so we thank you both of you for what you do to answer these questions are we want to know how about and so without any recognize the vice chair and one of the United States competition next ten here is senator moran. Chairwoman thank you and i appreciate hearing your enthusiasm and you and i are involved in a lot of hearings in the subcommittee and others, and i would hate to admit that any of them are ones that im not excited about being at but if theres a level of enthusiasm, for a subject in for a hearing, it is this morning it is nice to have the two of you here today together in a certainly welcome, our former colleagues and administrator nelson, and director to this hearing and i want to start by thinking punch for visiting kansas with me last year it was a highlight in a very valuable certainly to me and i hope to you, but for the people, the students that we spent and you spent time with in a very that is sooner nelson, you are relentless maybe an overstatement but not far, relentless in your willingness stated willingness to come to kansas and it seems to be my schedule thats keeping them from happening and im going to make it happen shortly and i think you for that and there is great value in americans seeing it the two of you and hearing what you are about in your mission and generating the enthusiasm and helpful to us as we appropriated money for our constituents to believe that money is being widely and wisely spent in a value to the country and this the proposed budget for the 26 billion increase of about 8 percent. An assessed proposed budget is 2. 5 billion, and represent almost 18 percent increase and im pleased to be country and i hope that we have success in reaching an agreement so that legislature can become law nasas one of the most wellknown Government Agencies in the past we have witnessed the successful launch of the james telescope, the appreciate your efforts administrators to see an iron for my colleagues were present and we didnt quite succeeded it all worked on the 20th of december and orange on the 22nd of december, and the may have fourth of december about was business morning, most of our families had other plans for us on that day but in addition to james Webb Telescope it was a year of research and science of mars, perseverance and ingenuity and we are eagerly awaiting this artisan one launch that signifies a first step to returning americas astronauts in this case, a woman to the moon predict and i have been the leader republican this when he sincerely days of this program and work closely with the previs administrator could unify challenges at what was needed to ensure the longterm success of this mission and returning to the moon insisting the presence or the long triple for foundation and in place this administration is continuing that goal and the scientific research, is no less impressive in kansas kansas alone you can go from a lab, sitting plant genomics to studying arctic and antarctic ice, without leaving the state and even without leaving the campus we cannot rest upon past successes however significant competition across the globe to be that nation that unlocks the discoveries that will drive Economic Growth and success in this research is important to our National Security has well. We see the competition is focus from investments by other nations but also from incentivizing unlawful transfer of intellectual property and this is a recognition of the power of knowledge is important we are able to harness the power of knowledge is friction generated by your agencies for the good of the country nasa and nsf have the opportunities to get pleasant images to encourages students and young people across the country no matter where they live to pursue activities and careers in stem and we just had a astronaut in kansas at the cosmos fear and we visited with fourth fifth and sixth graders, huge value and no interest in me but they were very excited about the astronaut in our country needs workforce and each and every state is ready push frontier of knowledge as a skills to drive it into feet become a great opportunity within your agency to maintain leadership across the scientific sacrament honors and in space, and for your strategic in our investments in and for the time where there is severe and rest in the world from a russian try to continue to make significant gains in space domain and vital to the united sees maintaining our leadership in space and in research and in developing arteries hundred forward to discussing the details of your proposed budget being presentedh for your leadership. Thank you very much. Thank you, if i may, and my remarks have them submitted to the record i would like to just talk to you if i may. And for small i want to thank you all for the appropriations for 2022, and they gave us what we needed. And a little birdie told me that you all are seriously considering getting the Appropriations Bills out for 2023 before october the first. I hope it does. It will bring about certainty for all agencies of government if that in fact happens and breaks what has become a routine procedure where we often wait half at least of the fiscal year before getting the appropriations and going on a continuing resolution of previous appropriations which often dont have any applications at present so i commend you. I want you to know to pick up on comments that both of you made about stem and about kids. I have been blown away by our interns. We have lots of interns and we love our interns. 30 end up coming to work for nasa, and we are going to expand our interns. They are reflective of what the two of you just related about seeing students in school that when the subject of space comes up, their little eyes light up, they get excited, they are motivated. Its a subject matter of which its a window into the items that are absolutely critical for the future of the country, science, technology, engineering, mathematics. We saw a bit of this several generations ago in the apollo generation for when that major thrust of a space achievement occurred for two generations of students we saw the effects of a concentration on the stem subject matter and how that rippled through the schools and the colleges and universities and produced a workforce that gave us some of the technology that we are experiencing today and thats whats going to happen with of the rms generation and you all, the two of you just testified to that effect by virtue of what youve seen and its extraordinary. We are taking it very seriously. We send our astronauts to a lot of schools. We send our scientists to a lot of schools. We are giving grants specifically in areas that have been overlooked in the past. This is part of our diversity outreach, so for example, weve sent a space grant to the university of wyoming. In the past a lot of those universities didnt have a direct relation, but we dont want those students in rural areas and that is just one example, we dont want them overlooked. They are part of the National Culture that is so excited about space and technology so forth, so i wanted to comment since the two of you both mentioned it. Youve given us the resources in which to proceed with the rms program. It was the apollo generation. We are going back to the moon, we are going to land the first woman and man. Its going to be an exciting time but this time, we are going back to learn, to stay, to develop new systems, new technologies, new techniques on how to live a long time and that hostile environment because when we go to mars, we are going to have to have learned that and learn new technologies. I want to urge you as an Appropriations Committee dont short sheet Space Technology. We need that extra research and development and let me give you one example. For years, by the way, you, the congress, rescued us on the question of Nuclear Energy in space. As a matter of fact not until this year were we able to get the office of management and budget to agree to put albeit a minor amount, a symbolic amount for Nuclear Research for space, nuclear thermal and electric not only producing electricity where, for example on the surface of the moon we are going to need a lot of electricity because if we find water, then we have rocket fuel and we have a Mission Going to land on the south pole next year. Its going to dig around down to the moons surface and if theres water we have that opportunity so i want to commend you for how youve constantly supported the nuclear electric but i want to ask you to consider pouring on the juice because that would give us a way to get to mars quicker and if we can get to mars quicker, then we dont have to stay there a long time until the planets realigned so that we can get back in a reasonable period of time so i could keep talking on and on. Aviation, something dear to senator moran. We will fly the First Electric airplane this year. We are going to fly the first low sonic boom supersonic future transport that can fly over Populated Areas with just a little rumble instead of that boom that goes with the existing sonic boom. Theres so many things, im going to wait for your questions. Both of you mentioned james webbs space telescope. My goodness, in one month we will have the first pictures, and its going to be from light traveled at the speed of light 186,000 miles per second traveled for 13. 5 billion years. It will be the life and infrared spectrum that is from the formation of the very first galaxy. Think of the discoveries that we are going to have of this thing called the universe that is too big for me to even conceive it. Think of the questions we are going to answer of which we dont even know what the questions are right now as a result of what we are going to learn. Im going to stop there, madam chair. I want to hear from the doctor that is well known, well respected in his scientific discovery, a partner for us and i look forward to hearing from you all is well. Thank you. Thank you very much. Doctor . Thank you so much. Good morning chair shaheen, Ranking Member and members of the subcommittee. Its an honor to appear with you today to discuss the president s fy 23 budget request and the many ways in which the National Science foundation is working on discovery and innovation for the benefit of all americans. I would like to start by thanking the committee for your support. Your leadership has been and will continue to be central to keeping the United States the Global Leader in science, engineering and technology. For more than 70 years, nsf has been a countless for Economic Growth and job creation in the United States. You do not have to look hard to see the profound impact of the agency. The internet, 3d printing, smart phones and the networks that cover them and the technologies that are foundational in the development of covid tests and vaccines and these are just a few examples of how the investments have benefited every american. However we currently face challenges towards scientific leadership. Other nations are seeking to replicate our success. Our unique Innovation Ecosystem into the future of Critical Technologies like ai and quantum Information Science. Our economic and National Security depends on our ability to invest heavily in the technologies of today while making the discoveries that are the foundation for the technologies of tomorrow and the future. We must feed growth everywhere by building ecosystems of innovation in every region of the country and harness our domestic talent across every demographic and geographic background to unlock the True Potential of the workforce. The 10. 5 billion fy 23 budget request makes historic investments in each of these areas. First the budget funds critical Exploratory Research that is an engine of Economic Growth and foundation for the industry of the future. It includes 9. 8 billion in an increase of 1. 6 billion above the enacted level to support Research Across the spectrum of science, engineering and technology. With this additional funding, nsf will continue to be the champion of fundamental research that is the bedrock of the future. Second, the budget invests nearly 1. 4 billion in support of the scientists and engineers of today and tomorrow. There is tremendous untapped talent across every demographic and social Economic Group in every region of the country. Every person needs access to quality opportunities from k12 to Community Colleges and universities and we must inspire and motivate the missing millions to participate in the nations innovation enterprise. The request introduces a new program aimed at advancing the geography of innovation and engaging the resilience. Since i spoke to you last im delighted to announce the program. This program is called granted, and i can earn for growing Research Access for nationally transformative equity diversity. This will focus on breaking down barriers to competitiveness in underserved institutions within the Nations Research enterprise. It will complement the longstanding programs and those lacking institutional capacity. Finally there is substantial investments in Solutions Oriented research. This has been a critical part of the mission and now must be scaled to meet this moment of intense global competition with the support of the congress nsf has launched the first new directorate in more than 30 years. This new directorate of Technology Innovation and Partnership Six of the cross roads of the Research Youth inspired solutions and transformational Research Across all scientific and engineering disciplines. Significant resources are needed to ensure that it will have the Transformative Impact it is designed to achieve. That is why the budget requests for this new directorate. Decades of investments in areas like Artificial Intelligence, Technology Development in emerging industries and cultivate new education and entrepreneurial pathways. Im also proud to announce that today we will be releasing the first new major funding opportunity to the Regional Innovation Engines Program that offers a unique opportunity to spur Economic Growth in regions that have not participated in the technology. Each engine will introduce partners from industry, academia, governments, nonprofits, Civil Society and communities. These partnerships will stimulate the creation of technology to serve the corresponding regions and the nations needs and in doing so will stimulate Economic Growth, develop talent and build centers of innovation across the country. At the fy 23 budget request initially invests in the critical world leading infrastructure in doing test beds, laboratories and prototyping fundamental research. It also takes very seriously the need to safeguard taxpayerfunded research. Playing a leading role in developing the processes, training and policies to ensure Research Security. We are committed to Strong Partnerships across the federal government with academia and our likeminded International Partners to uphold the values of openness, transparency and reciprocity and research that have made the research so successful. I am amazed every day by the ingenuity and dedication of the workforce and incredible innovation made possible. During the pandemic we saw no decrease in productivity in fact it was quite the opposite and thanks to the support of the administration and congress for the act and the American Rescue plan we have been able to support those in the Research Community most impacted by the pandemic. Again i would like to thank each of you for your support. The fy 23 request positions the agency to ensure leadership for decades to come and i look forward to working with you to achieve that goal. Thank you madam chair and Ranking Member. Thank you both for your testimony and we will now enter five minutes of questioning rounds and i will begin. Administrator nelson i think the whole world has been transfixed on russias unprovoked war in ukraine and whats happening there and as part of what weve heard from the rhetoric coming out of russia is the suggestion that they may no longer participate with us in the International Space station and may look to china to partner on space activities. Can you talk about how concerned we should be about that and out atnasas level you are hearing y chatter that they may be pulling out of our partnership there . Madam chair, they are not. In the last day or so there are misleading headlines. If you read the articles it says Something Else of comments made by people in the Russian Space agency. I want you to think about this issue in Historical Context and the height of the cold war in the soviet union a soviet spacecraft and an american spacecraft rendezvoused and worked together in space led by general tom stafford and general lexi. That personal friendship endured so much so that when alexi passed away, who gave the eulogy at the funeral none other than general tom stafford and that cooperation in space has continued to this day. First there was a Russian Space station and the u. S. Space Program Space shuttle docked. Then together we built the International Space station theoretically you cant operate the space station without both. The russians have the propulsion, the attitude, the control. The u. S. Has the electricity production. I see nothing in the even keel professional relationship between the cosmonauts and astronauts, between Mission Control in moscow and houston and the training of the russian cosmonauts in america and the training of american astronauts in moscow. I see nothing that has interrupted that professional relationship no matter how awful putin is conducting the war with such disastrous results. Weve seen recent reports about cooperation between the cosmonauts can you also comment on what you are seeing with respect to china and russia cooperating in space . China is completely a different experience for the u. S. Space program because there hasnt been any transparency. They are very secretive. An example, they put up the space station and the first stage of the rocket they didnt save enough fuel so they could have a controlled reentry. It could have come down in saudi arabia. And they were secretive about the coordinates of where it was going to come down. I have since talked to the Chinese Ambassador and he gave me the opening. He said what can we do. He said i will give you an example of exactly what you can do to begin things. You 50 years after us have returned the sample from the moon. Fifty years ago when we made our sample of the lunar soil and rocks available to the International Scientific community, you could do the same thus far they have not indicated anything. So its been a very strained relationship with the Chinese Space program. What is the extent of cooperation with russia between russia and china im simply not sure. China has made in treaties to russia and russia has flirted with china and you remember putin went to the opening of the olympics as a guest but we dont know to what extent. But we know because of the professional relationship and what i believe to be the intention of the Russian Space program to continue with the space station. And now that we have gotten the white house approval of extending the space station until 2030, if you all appropriate the funds. And of course what we want to do is continue with until we have a commercial space station and then deorbit an aging space station in 2031, but we see every reason the russians are going to continue on the space station for the immediate future, and of course we personally hope they will continue with us all the way to 2030. Senator moran. Thank you very much. Administrator nelson, given the amount of work that remains to be done with developing and testing spacesuits, what do you see is the largest technical threat to landing our astronauts on the moon by 2025. You all have helped us so the landing will occur because there have been indications, and we hope that you will consider the president s request to start competition in a human lander. Now as it turned out, the first competition nasa simply didnt have enough money to award. And at the three competitors was the one that was given the nod space x for the first landing. What we wanted to do and what you all, the congress have made particularly clear to me through hearings last year, and i happen to agree with you is that you won and competition for the ultimate lander. So, on the basis of that, we have started initial process, and if you deem it wise giving the appropriations which the president has requested then you will have a simultaneous competition excluding space x, because they already have that under procurement law and cant participate in the next competition. The winner of that competition would have the opportunity to land be on crude lander first and then do the landing. They have that opportunity then we would have to somewhere in the 2020 timeframe having both already landed to make the ultimate choice that would last for some period of time as the lander on the moon. That it is a decision you have to make in this president s request. And i believe that that is the plan that can bring us all the value of competition. You get it done with that competitive spirit and that allows us to move away from what has been a plague in the past which is a costplus. And its to move to an existing contractual price. Thank you for your answer. Let me ask about the aeronautics. You did mention that its a great value. That portfolio includes everything from low sonic boom aircraft to developing advanced materials and technologies that we lead us to a safer more fuelefficient aircraft. Youre asking for an increase of 90 million to further our understanding of aeronautics 972 milliondollar request. Nasa is involved in identifying and improving the research there are great opportunities within the University Research committee to improve our understanding and develop aeronautics capabilities in the aviation sector. How does nasa intend to use its proposed budgets, aeronautics budget to build upon the strong university of Research Capabilities that exist today to solve the current and future aeronautical problems of tomorrow . Well, for example, at wichita state, they are working on composites. Here is the problem today with the composites. You can do an airliner like the 787. Its a composite body that is much lighter, but its kind of like a oneofakind. You need to be able to stretch the process out where you can make composites and would be much more of a an Assembly Line a situation. Wichita state is working on that. To get that to the point through Aeronautical Research that nasa is working on so that we can start popping out airframes that are composites then youve saved a lot of weight and therefore a lot of fuel and youve gotten a lot greater efficiencies and according to the passengers that fly on the 787, its also more comfortable inside because of the humidity. The new nasa bill on a track where they would he the government grow program and there was going to be a commercial program and we are seeing the of that are example going to in front the International Space station today because we are transporting crude by nasa contracting with spacex and eventually rolling and bowling should launch its spacecraft by the way and a week or so. And this is a test flight and the crew would be later this year. We have two ways of getting to the International Space station. Spacex and boeing and we have already got lots of ways to get cargo up there including north of rome and launching Northrop Grumman and from senator van hollens constituency. Most of the people live in maryland to work there at the launch facility and so theres just so much that is happening in the Commercial Area whether its done directly under nasas government contracts or whether nasa contracts with commercial entities in order to produce what we are asking them to produce. Now when it comes to safety nasa is all over it. We are not simply going to put a crew in spacecraft that are not safe even though we contracted with a commercial company in the proof is in the pudding, look what has happened with commercial crews going to and from the International Space station. Thank you center moran. Senator van hollen. Thank you madam chairman and Ranking Member. Its great to have both of you here administrator nelson thank you for your enthusiasm for all the initiatives that you are overseeing and for presenting a budget that includes important announcements advancements in Space Exploration and discovery as well as robust funding for science which is use other very important to all of us. And it encompasses many of the marylandbased Missions Including in goddard and i appreciate the funding and again continuing support for the telescope. We are all thrilled with the fact that that deployed successfully and we know 8 million things had to go right in order for that to be successful and it has been and im very proud of all the folks with Space Telescope Science Institute in baltimore responsible for Mission Operations as well as the 2000 marylanders at goddard india look forward to getting those first images back soon. Thank you for mentioning it and i want to spend a moment focusing on the flight facility which as you indicated is critical to our space earth and science missions. Its an unmanned flight a flyer to the International Space station and a home for nasas balloon program. This is a great budget but it does have the shortcoming and that does not include the funds traditionally provided in a 21st century launch program. We worked on a bipartisan basis to make sure funds are provided because its attracting new commercial space partners but its growing and i think you have that knowledge does well your infrastructure needs budget the importance of the causeway bridge. Mr. Administrator i know youve been there in your commitment to work with us to make sure thats a success. Not only do you have my commitment ive been out there and we are afraid that bridge is going to fall in the water. Its the number one priority and i thought with nasa and some of your colleagues on this committee that we were going to get it in the 22 budget. I may get in trouble by saying this. I hope that there is going to be some kind of infrastructure bill that still going to come out of the senate that would allow us then to have high priority desperately needed Infrastructure Projects like the Wallops Island bridge being taking care of. The only way we got some of the others was that you all passed a hurricane emergency supplemental and begot the roofs being done in new orleans on the big facility down there that we havent enabled to get it. We will work on that. Infrastructure modernization bill that a lot but it did neglect critical u. S. Government doesnt like this one. Obviously we dont have the ridge. I want to play the bridge repair over the bw parkway in goddard. Mr. Administrator let me ask you i indicated the budget is a good one. In the area of physics theres a slight reduction which i will work with my colleagues to remedy. I do want to ask for your continued to support. They look at the budget its been reduced to make think thats a mistake especially as we witness the impact of solar on starlink satellites and space weather as you know poses a serious risk to our Satellite Communication Systems and i also believe you are committed to that mission. In my remaining time id like to thank you for all of your work at the Science Foundation. Science is obviously a critical area for our country and you mentioned it in your remarks. In her length its a center for quantum Information Science. Can you elaborate a little bit on what you are doing in that area and at the same time talk a little bit more about your efforts to bring hbcus into your efforts to make sure all of our talent is on the Playing Field when it comes to science. Speed up thank you senator. As you pointed out its a very Important Technology and its very important that we do the vanguard. As giving a talk at ibm yorktown and i was standing in front of the quantum computer right there admiring the tremendous work thats gone into it in terms of the many devices in the Technology Goes that goes with it in the quantum information and a whole lot or. All of those that have come together in order for us to be on a fantastic mission and i was told that deployed not only to the United States. Across the globe. We are really a world leader in this. This investment we are here today because of the sustained investment of all aspects whether its physics chemistry Science Computing engineering and a whole lot more and to get to the point that we are right now and im happy to say the partnership with the department of energy and the continuity and vesting in a Quantum Institute which has partnerships to advance to whiskey l. As they often say. Nasa have a number of investments in terms of how we take these ideas into action in terms of supporting industry partnerships and thats why was at ibm yesterday. I had said the most important thing is to make sure we have the quantum mark arras. We will have great quantum researchers and we will invest in it that we need to make sure we have quantum administration starting at the k12 level so we have the program focused on k12 expiration of quantum. How will we get quantum accessible for High School Children to be able to get quantum science and how can we with quantum features . This is something we are working on with many partners develop curriculum at the cape 12 level. Quantum Information Science and engineering is precisely the focus and how might we get the quantum features exciting people at hbcus . We are working diligently with our partners. Since we met last ive had many conversations with hbcus president s and chancellors and im happier for the one of the chancellors we had good conversations and asked them how might we have more historically black colleges involved and participating in Quantum Education when he committed to colleges. It is part of how we build the quantum future so we are working on all of this training for talent everywhere in quantum physics. Thank you. Thank you. Senator capito. Thank you madam chair and thank you for being here today or administrator nelson this is for you. We could go at a conference i just missed you. I was with a couple of your leaders from the Space Technology and science area and the goal is to combine the skills and resources of capabilities of West Virginia ohio and pennsylvania to become more active contributors to the industrial base. Its was really an exciting conference. Ravenswood does a lot of the low minute toured while we are in pittsburgh which is exciting to see what they will be landing in the fourth quarter. How do you see this . The know you touched on the bit but the question i hear from senator moran. The private sector and the more rural parts of our nation that could capitalize on exciting features in space. Specifically that consortium of three states is responsible for 10,000 jobs in three states and its impressive what you all have done. Also while i was there i did go to astral body and they revealed the first commercial lender on the moon. This will be, and it will be later this year, this will be the first u. S. Landing on the moon since a halfcentury ago when we last landed on apollo 17 and this is going to be a commercial landing under the program of which we have incentivized the commercial industry to build flanders and put scientific payloads on them, many of which are nasa payloads and do all kinds of things without nasa having to do the lander. And so for example there are three companies that are going to be landing. One of those companies is going to have a nasa instrument on it and it will land on the south pole. It will dig down to see if the water that we know was there and the shadowed crevices on the south pole which is now ice has water underneath and if so theres the potential for rocket fuel, hydrogen and oxygen. So these are the kinds of things that you are doing out there in combining efforts of three states and its only going to grow. It was really exciting to hear with higher at educational and the Nonprofit Community as you know has a really Great Community organization of building this country and they are now sustaining and looking at it. Let me ask you one other question about the upcoming ofa m. It used to be called restore l the in space servicing and manufacturing of satellites. How important is this . The i can see if you can quantify little bit. Its usually important. If we are able to service a spacecraft on orbit than we get extra life out of it. Not only repairs and maintenance but also fuel. So it makes sense and we are developing, nasa is developing this capability. We have contracted out for commercial entities to do this as well and by the way before you get through it just to give kudos to you. We have what we call the center in West Virginia, independent their vacation and validation of software. That is so super important to nasa and im going to be there in a couple of weeks and i hope to your schedule on a monday morning works out so that you can come with us and then i will try to get you and whoever this delegation is with us that to washington. Sounds great. As you know one of our West Virginia i was there for the dedication i look forward to that and i will look at my schedule. Have a question for you. I will submit it for the record. Thank you senator capito. Senator braun. Thank you madam chair right come from running a business for 37 years prior to coming here investment was always the most important thing you have to consider. When you invest there is a return on it and if you dont do it well you end up paying the price. Your competitors generally outmaneuver you in the long run. When we are looking at nasa, the National Science foundation you might be surprised that i think we have to be putting as many resources as we can into it. Its one of the few things that even though it may not be tangible is very important and sometimes very tangible as well down the road. I am one that generally always looks at the particulars which is a 23. 27 million in fiscal year 27 and 24. 04, request request of 25. Thats about as mile of the request in terms of increases than anything ive seen since ive been here. In the context though we are 30 trillion in debt and thats a complicated subject. All i can tell you is its not a great as this plan to borrow your way into the future when it doesnt give you a cheer return on investment. I want to talk about the more existential discussion and that is our geopolitical competitor. When it comes to the chinese they are not apologetic and they are not quiet about it. They would want to replace us someday and do it i think by according what their intent might he. In the meantime i observed them as being ones that i dont know their handshake Business Partners and if we do invest more in the Science Foundation are nasa how are we sure with that behavior especially when you are maybe doing it to some extent where it there is not shared information it could be described as, how are we certain that we will do it in a way that keeps us secure and doesnt aid the competition and then mr. Nelson id like you to answer that same question as it applies to nasa. Thank you very much for the question. Research integrity. Forget to the specific question on china we are working with partners to share our values of transparency and openness. We are working with partners who emphasized that. One of the things we did two years ago and at that time is on the National Science for the commissioned a group and we asked them to look at the problem so its not just an internal thing but a group of experts looking at how we move forward and we are pretty much following the guidelines in consultation with many other entities. One of the recommendations that was made was to appoint the chief officer of Research Security strategy and policy whose job it is to everyday wake up and think about Research Security in as many forms to make sure we are protecting the things that need to be protected in the policies for that. Im happy to say that was part of the recommendation. More importantly. You are confident in this case especially with what we have observed over the last decade or so especially more recently that it will be foolproof and it will not be breached if we are making these investments where would be nothing more than giving them information that would end up hurting us somehow. Senator this is where the partnership and sf is closely partnering with the agencies and agencies like nasa and the department of energy and all these agencies. According to the office of scientific knowledge at the department of energy and nih to make sure the policies we are putting acrosstheboard that we essentially invested. I can tell you we have constant conversations about it and i met with an Analytics Software that can look up where people are declaring conflict of interest and commitment and make sure people are declaring. More importantly these academic integers and so we are partnering with the Economic Institution to the Economic Institutions and make sure the policies they are putting in place are going to be implemented. In terms of taking care of any breaches we have worked closely with the office of Inspector General on nsf and make sure we take care of it. Thank you and it looks like you are well aware of the potential of my might happen and mr. Nelson can you weigh in . Your question about china i have made no bones in response to senator shaheen. They are simply not transparent. They have not cooperated. We have given them ample opportunities and i wont repeat what was ordered on the record to the committee. We would welcome that. We would be very guarded in our dealings with the chinese. Thus far all the opportunities that we have given them and an example i gave was that life was threatened on the face of the earth with uncontrolled entry of their first stage of the rocket when they put up their space station. Not only had they not saved enough youll are controlled reentry and thank goodness he came down in the indian ocean but it could have come down in saudi arabia and not only had they not done that. They refuse to give us coordinates and information about the track. We fortunately had our own information about the track so we were on top of it but its just another illustration and its such a contrast to what we have been doing with the russians ever since. The soviet union in 1975 where the civilian Space Program has always had a cooperation to this point now and Going Forward why this is such an International Space program where the japanese and the European Space agencys and now the uae are all participating with us not only in the space station. As we go to the moon and the gateway which is like a space station that will orbit the moon. Thank you for being vigilant and alert to the potential, thank you. Thank you senator braun. Senator braun raised the issue of investing and i agree. Think its one of the reasons i support the u. S. Innovation and competition act because thats a place where we are investing in science in the way that we really need to. And one of the provisions that is included in that i support requires we meet 20 of nsf investment go to states like New Hampshire. Dr. Panchanathan can you talk about why its important for us also to encourage small to participate and invest in those programs . Madam chair thank you so much for the question. Talent ideas or democratize all across the nation of section. I truly understand the new energized talent everywhere i think innovation will happen. Innovation anywhere in opportunity anywhere. Being deeply committed to this is the pillar of my position ensuring inclusivity and access and ensuring that diversity of all kinds diversity of geography socioeconomic demographics so we need to make sure that talent everywhere is included. If you look the programs that nsf launched the quantum programs aai institutes have 15 instances transforming states. This is an intentional effort because i truly believe that ai is everywhere and quantum likewise. So i think how do we get these ideas to rise up and thats why talk about this new program i launched where if you look at it that truly deserve the level of investment the fantastic ideas are everywhere one way where goodness is to make sure these institutions have the support for research to make it possible for them to rise up and be successful. How do we get those other institutions and this is why the program is a virtual infrastructure. How do we get support and intellectual property . This kind of support is not necessarily available at all institutions. How do we make it possible in states where theres a lot of talent and ideas that need to be developed. Im very comfortable with the fact that we have an aspirational goal of how we might include the states. So you would agree then build embedded or structure them also means nsf largescale programs like science and Technology Research and midscale infrastructure and Technology Direct threats all that those should also apsley and then made my point when institutions lead in bringing partnerships other situations we should look at msi and hbcus as partner institutions so all these institutions can be everywhere and should be everywhere. Does that 20 of nsf investment is that a goal that allows us to do that . The aspirational goal, im confident it will be successful youll find you went up over the years essentially exceeding that kind of investment and the regions of our nation where they are prom at right now. Thank you. Im counting on senator moran as the comfrey of the committee that 20 . Share that with senator moran since hes not here right now. Let me also ask you dr. Panchanathan about the number of additional rants that nsf would be able to fund. If you are funded at the request level what will that allow you to do that you wouldnt be able to do otherwise and how do you see that conjuring to our goal of promoting competition . And chair the last testimony gave a talk about the numbers of rants. I spoke to senator moran in kansas and they said i did not get funded. Its about 40 to 50,000 grants a year. We find 11,000 of them. 25 as the success rate, lets put it that way. Raising it to 300k. With this increase we would get to 40k. It would be 20 of the way there and instead of the 50 we desired but that is a good trend to take to where we need to be in terms of how to get this done and i see this as a National Security issue because proposals are the ones we shouldnt leave that and so im hoping and grateful for all of you for recognizing that and to the administration for investing because this would make it possible. Thank you. Senator moran, while hes still getting settled i wanted to wait until you got back to followup on the question about the 2025 date because obviously it depends on a lot of things going right if we are going to make that date. I was a little fuzzy on how confident you were that that could actually happen so can you tell us today if you get your budget request that you will be able to make that 2025 date for the landing . We will not fly astronauts until its safe and if that means theres a delay, then we will delay. But we have every reason to believe that we are on a schedule that first of all will certainly, through the sls rocket and over alien spacecraft be ready and we will have flown in 2024 a crew after the first test flight later this year we will have flown a crew in a 30 day mission in lunar orbit. And then we have every confidence to feel that under the contract in 2024 they will land and uncrewed and in 2025 we will be ready for them to have launched their lander into lunar orbit. Oh ryan goes into lunar orbit, the crew is transferred and it goes down and lands and stays for whatever the prescribed time is. A day or so and then they come back and rendezvous in lunar orbit with orion and come home. Now of course, we believe that thats the schedule. But i can tell you that if i am making the decisions, its not going to fly until its safe. I think we would certainly expect no less than that. That certainly needs to be the bottom line for the decisionmaking. My question is really assuming that it is safe, are we going to meet those other deadlines to make sure it is safe. And i appreciate your question and you want to ask that question. Its also true that every Space Mission that weve had, there have been delays. You think back to apollo. Look what happened after the apollo fire. They were down for over two years and still with and an incredible amount of money poured in and they were able to make president kennedys goal of landing on the moon by the end of the decade. Look at the space shuttle. The space shuttle, a fantastic flying machine by the way that we now know had certain technical flaws and we lost 14 souls. It also was delayed until 1981 when in fact a lot of people thought it was going to fly not long after in 75 and fly in the late 70s. It didnt happen and look what happened when we lost a challenger we were down two and a half years and then in 2003, we lost columbia and we were down another couple of years. And that further delays. So, you cant go until its right. But and all these things cost money. These delays cost money. Thats another reason we had a question here about competition. Thats another reason to get to fixedprice contracts and then hold them to it. And we are doing that with the landers for the moon. Thank you. Senator moran. Thank you, chair. Doctor, again thank you for your presence and leadership at nsf. Let me begin by talking about you mentioned in your testimony about the development of new directorate and you did so in excitement. The budget proposes 880 million for the continued establishment of the directorate which is now about 20 of the total amount thats being requested for research. It is nsf balancing the creation of the directorate while preserving its basic Research Foundation . The bed rock of the work as a mission and should i, should we be concerned that it will change the direction and undermine the basic Research Needed to enable us to reach the goals . A very good question, senator. Thank you for asking the question. If you look at the directorate, some of the programs, lets look at the innovation the Entrepreneurship Program with the partnership for innovation which is also a program at nsf, some of them end up being focused on the concentration of science ideas into the market that has been existent in terms of training the entrepreneur of the future. What its trying to do right now is to scale them but on top of that also build a program called the Regional Innovation engines and to be very clear, these are meant to train the next generation, the future practitioners and researchers in an environment of academia and industry working together. So it is about the mission that is about training the talent for the future and inspiring new ideas for the same mission they are working on and i also talk about the vision. When i came in i started describing it this way. The one strand of the dna is curiosity from the base, Exploratory Research and that is something that you even alluded to but also we have been doing the other strand that is what i call the Solutions Focused research on innovation. To me these are highly synergistic like dna. It makes possible more exploration. There are many examples of this including in Space Exploration you start working on the technology for Space Exploration and find new problems to solve and this is exceedingly important to open up new scientific exploration also. Thats why this is an exceedingly important and its not a distraction its an attraction to do more in exploratory science. So thats the first thing i want to say. Second, it makes possible the kind of work we need in states. The unbelievable work and talent lets take that as an example they are doing amazing work and want the Community College innovation challenge and when i met the students its very clear if we do not have this innovation we wont have the Community Colleges, universities and other researchers getting their talent trained at the highest level of intensity to move forward in terms of the industries of the future. Im happy to elaborate more but this is what we are trying to do. In the absence of what Research Takes place at nsf, where would the private sector in the absence of that research, what would we lose the most, what is the private sector do in comparison and applied research versus basic research, where do we need to focus the public funds . I think it is mostly focused the majority of the public fund is focused and will continue to be focused on fundamental basic research but as i said earlier, we are also trying to invest so that more can be uncovered through the work that we do but lets not forget just in the last year lets take some examples. In the institutes in fact the private sector has come to us and said amazon invested in the fairness of the program and one of the funding was invested by a combination of intel, google and amazon. So, the private sectors come to us and say we will coinvest with you because our basic Research Needs something its wellpositioned to do. We can work with you to unearth more so in fact i would say its added rather than subjective. So i am finding more and more. Ibm was investing 100 million on hbc you and talking about how we might collaborate with companies that are interested in getting the talent of the future and also newer ideas that they want to work on and they are willing to partner. This is a new world of partnership so what they are also doing at the same time im developing a Strong Partnership with the department of commerce so that the regional technology. The scientific problems of what we have which is what makes the nation unique the relationship potential is able to be taken out and scaled and able to compete with other nations so i want us to be more between agencies, between the various programs and a nice handoff and fantastic partnership. Thats what we need more and im a huge fan of that because we need all of the public investments to then translate to Economic Prosperity and most importantly every region of the nation if i may, hes just described the emphasis on the publicprivate partnership, the east coast thats very similar to what we are doing. Its a new day. The government cant do it all. You gave us x amount of money and weve got to make that money happened the way we are trying to achieve and we can leverage that money by working with a commercial industry and through competition bring those costs down. I will give you one more example, the development of space x and the successful rocket, the falcon nine and falcon nine heavy. The vice chair of the joint chiefs told me last year before he retired he said the fact that we have competition now on going to space just for the military has saved them 40 billion in costs, so it is another example of the publicprivate partnership. We are doing this with regards to climate and of course i will be happy to go into examples if you would like that. My questions are not intended to be critical but to garner an understanding of how we can more rapidly advance the outcomes that we need economically and in National Security in a time in which our adversaries have seemingly unlimited public funds. How do we do this in a way that gets us to the places that we need to be the fastest . I never looked at your question as a criticism at all. In fact to the contrary. You are a strong supporter and i tell you the point that you make about the competitors, the competitors somehow because they have a topdown approach, they seem to force this. That will not work in the longterm. That is what is fantastic about the nation. I repeat the slogan i say innovation anywhere, opportunities everywhere. We have the innovation and thats why we need to not force but by the natural synergies coming together and thats what were doing. How can we use the public funds in a way that inspires every idea but at the same time how do we leverage the partnerships even more to scale faster because they are so good but we need to scale faster. Absolutely the capabilities of the United States to advance to faster, better, be safer and more economically secure than our adversaries comes from the initiative and enterprise enterprise innovationthat comese sector it comes from private citizens and the government is a tool in which we can enhance and speed up that process. But i will choose the innovator over the government decision every time. We have a rule of catalyzing as public investors that is what they are doing. The innovation is there. All they are doing is trying. We dont want anybody to be left behind. I meant unbelievable talent all across the country. Im also traveling quite a bit around the nation. I am so inspired every time i go and i made Community College students and universities and entrepreneurs. I am inspired to do more, faster, better, as you said. As we would say, i adopt the last few paragraphs as my own remarks. Thank you. Let me ask in regards to the Conference Committee that is hopefully soon to meet, what is it that you hope to see occur and whatever the legislation ultimately is called that advances the cause at nsf . Big, bold investments it takes all of the ideas talked about of things left behind and an example in the conversation at the Community College, its disheartening to see people who are putting a lot of effort with so much hope and aspirations and writing a fantastic proposal so im getting a Gold Standard for saying yes this is the investment and not having that idea is they totally missed opportunity. Likewise the idea that needs to be inspired every day everywhere and the Innovation Ecosystem for example we talked about in the state of kansas, nebraska, iowa, indiana, illinois as one example, the innovation for the future Smart Agriculture such innovation that can build and i was at john deere the other day just two weeks ago in illinois visiting john deere and im looking at the technological roadmap of what they are doing. I never knew a Tractor Company has so Much Technology built in with ai and computing and so on so i think thats what we need to do more is see how we can build this innovation and to do that, the proposal thats made i think is the right strategy. The investment for this bold rapid scaling of ideas and talent, and im really hopeful and thankful to all so if you make this happen sooner than later because we cannot miss any more time. This is the time. Time is now. This is the time. We need to activate our progress to stay far ahead of the competition and not even look behind. I dont have anymore questions but to just one comment and that is to the administrator senator nelson first observing satellites are an essential tool for kansas because it aids us in our agricultural practices and that is a hugely important component of our states economy, and your offer to educate me, show me and demonstrate that the value of those satellites is very much appreciated and i look forward to the moment in time in which we accomplish that. Yes, sir and indeed a lot of people think of nasa as the space agency. Dont forget the first a, aeronautics. But also, people dont realize it is also the point of the sphere on climate and Climate Change because all the measurements that are being made are done by instruments that we design, build, launch and many of them we operate. And over the course of the next decade we are going to have a great observatory of five additional major spacecraft that all of this information is going to be put into a 3d composite on precisely what is happening to the earths climate. Whats happening to the water, to the land, to the ice, to the atmosphere. We are putting up at the end of this year a mission that is going to be able to measure for the first time the elevation of the streams and rivers and lakes, the freshwater. Weve been able to measure the elevation of the oceans, the saltwater. We are going to be able to find out very precisely what is happening to the ice. And all of this and we have the support of the white house on this and we hope we will have your support. We are going to create if you can envision in space terms a Mission Control center. Its going to be called the earth information center. Its going to bring all of this data in and its going to be displayed and its going to be available to everybody, not just government at all levels including your local county commission when they are planning, but its going to be available to schools and universities and the private sector as well as to what is happening and the changes that are happening to the claimant. This may be the most important conversation of topic among my constituents most days. I just want to say on the testimony, we did not collaborate on our testimonies. But i feel like i could start a sentence and he could finish it and vice versa. And what he said, big bold investments. That is equally applicable to nasa. We appreciate that. I do have a few more questions actually before we close the hearing. I share your enthusiasm for this budget, but i will admit i have a couple of concerns. One is the one senator van holland raised based on a parochial concern because it has the potential to impact the university of New Hampshire which is one of the nations premier helio physics institutions. But also because one of the things it does as you know is it helps us to understand how the sun impacts the solar system and part of that is what happens to Climate Change as you are so weo eloquent about and also the weather. I appreciate establishing the space weather as its own program, but i wonder if you could help me understand why the request cuts space weather more than 12 and what activities it is proposed to be terminated. One of the things i always remember is one of the reasons we were not successful back when we were trying to get the iran hostage is out was because we didnt accurately understand what the weather was going to be when we landed at those helicopters. And we saw the same thing happen when we went to get osama bin laden. The weather almost undermined that mission as well, so its not just about the crops and what we need to do, but also significant National Security implications for understanding whats happening with the weather. So, help me understand why the cut and how the decision to reduce funding for the helio physics was made. I do have in my previous life some credentials in this area because there is an instrument out there called discover. It was terminated in politics in a Previous Administration because it had been proposed by a former Vice President of the United States. I remember that. And yours truly had the opportunity to get some more fortunately nasa had theood sense to keep it in mothballs and then low and behold the department of defense had a reason for wanting to get that up to give a quick alert on a solar explosion and all that radiation. So its out there a million miles now called discover, and it warns us of the solar radiation thats coming so that we can save our satellites as well as our ground stations when that solar explosion is coming at us. The university of New Hampshire, you are right is a leader in the field of helio physics. The decrease in the space weather program, which was 2. 7 million, or as you stated, 12 is due to the ramp down in the spending on space weather monitoring on an instrument that stands for helio physics environmental and radiation measurement experiment. And it will complete its integration and test this coming december. Now, there were a bunch of things going on in science. This was the decision to sense every now and then we get to different amounts handed to us and scientific decisions had to be made. But theres also a truth that the president proposes in the congress. I appreciate that response. The other concern that i want to raise with the report from the gao at the direction of the committee, the Government Accountability office analyzes the cost and performance of major projects. This is not to i dont think this is a problem of your leadership or even your predecessors leadership. It is a longterm problem. What the gao found is that the projects are experiencing the largest collective cost and schedule overruns since they began reporting in 2009. They cant be attributed to covid alone. Many had late stage design changes that led to modifications and the collective budget pressure is delaying the launch date. Can you help us understand what you are working on to improve the project management and do you see improvement anytime soon in the ability to manage those projects . Madam chair, there better be. And you are exactly right. There is no excuse for the cost overruns. But the old way of doing things was always costplus. And because of the competition that weve been talking about, we have been moving to the fixed price where we can under the procurement law. In those that we cant, we are moving to crack down. I want to give you an example. Because back tell underbid only costplus contract in order to what appears to get it on the next mobile launcher for the larger version of the sls, the larger version has enhanced upper stage that will carry more payload including the gateway which is like the many space station that will be in lunar orbit. They underbid and then they couldnt perform and nasa is stuck. What i have done is ive called in the ceo of back bechtel. Theyve readily acknowledged it but theres no way under the contract since it is a costplus contract that we can do anything but eat it. And thats not right. Times are changing. So what ive done specifically giving a lecture to all of the managers about tightening up on all of this seemed particularly Going Forward, ive specifically named the deputy administrator, an astronaut commander, to serve as the agencies chief acquisition officer to elevate the importance of acquisition. We are working closely with gao and our Inspector General at nasa on the recommendations i think we are beginning to make progress in closing out the gao recommendations related to strengthening this acquisition process. We are committed to improving the management of the cost and scheduled commitments, and ive also established a new chief Program Management officer dedicated to strengthening nasas oversight of its enterprise, of its management and of its Program Management policies. Under the law, thats what i can do. And Going Forward, if we take the competition seriously, we are going to be able to do a lot more costplus contracts. Thank you. I appreciate that explanation and it sounds like progress. Obviously we will want to continue to stay in touch with what you are seeing and what we can do to be helpful for any new authorities to address whats happening. My final question is for you because in addition to space, which is a new frontier not just for research but so is the arctic as a new frontier for research and National Security and as we look at the end roads that some of the competitors are making, it raises concerns about what we should be doing. So, can you describe the plan for expanding the Arctic Research and how you see that rolling out . Thank you for the interest. Clearly arctic and antarctic are of interest and have a lot of work to invest in. As you know we also look at the north atlantic as a huge partnership not only as a nation that our partners in europe, canada and others so this is critical for economic and security and making sure that we are building resilience into the future. One of the things they are doing is you would be happy to know we are working closely with the arctic communities because we need to make sure that we are including them in the conversations and so increasingly its very sensitive to the idea of making sure that our colleagues living in the arctic are in the conversations and thats why you will find we are taking a social behavioral not just a scientific approach but social behavioral humanistic approach in terms of how we are devising the future for the arctic so clearly theres an investment area we continue that and im very pleased to say that its not just in a few states but many states across the nation but specific from alaska to New Hampshire and we expect this will continue into the future and thats the way i see it. Thank you very much. Let me point out if there are no further questions, senators have until may 10th to submit additional questions to the subcommittees hearing record and we requested that nasa and nsf respond within 30 days to any questions you might receive. This was a very informative hearing. It feels like our science future is in good hands and we appreciate the work both of you are doing and look forward to continuing to collaborate and cooperate with your efforts. At this point, the subcommittee stands in recess until wednesday may 11th at 2 p. M. Where we will hold a hearing on the budget request of the department of commerce. Thank you both. Thank you madam chair and member ran. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]