37th president s resignation. Next june we will commemorate the 50th anniversary of the watergate breakin a crime of consequence that would go on to define a scandal in a critical period in 20th century history. Our distinguished speaker this evening was inside of the white house as it all unfolded. Geoff shepard was a white house fellow who was later assigned to the Domestic Council in the Nixon Administration. When the white house began requiring a Legal Defense as the watergate matter grew in 1973 and 74. Jeff was the youngest lawyer on the team. He was the first to listen to the smoking gun tape. He coined the phrase smoking gun. In fact later. He was there in the east room on august 9th as president nixon said farewell to his staff. And Geoff Shepard was standing in the back of the east room, and he was not happy. After hearing the smoking gun tape people leave like many the president nixon was hiding the truth and had been for several years. And then jeff started digging. And he dug and he dug and he dug for 15 years. Through the documents and through files that were once sealed. And jeff soon found out that what he was led to believe about watergate and indeed what the nation was led to believe was well. Lets just say that theres more to the story. And ill let him get into that this evening. Jeff is the author of the nixon conspiracy watergate and the plot to remove the president. You can purchase your copy in the nixon librarys gift shop and jeff will sign it this evening after tonights program this morning in the Washington Examiner paul bedard wrote that jeff shepherds quote credibility is hard to challenge. You can see jeff talking more about the nixon conspiracy on newsmax this wednesday morning, and he will appear on the hugh hewitt show on tuesday, november 30th at 8 05. Am eastern time now, lets hear from the man himself. Ladies and gentlemen, would you please welcome jeff shepherd . Thank you, my friend appreciate. Hello and welcome. Jim thank you for those kind remarks. Its could be back amongst friends friends from high school. I went to Long Beach Wilson graduated in 1962 friends from college. I went to Whittier College like president nixon except i graduated in 1966. And friends from the Nixon White House where i serve for five years. I dont know that any of my friends from Harvard Law School are here. But if you note on the book on the cover my criminal law professor Alan Dershowitz said some very nice things about me. So in addition to the above as jim mentioned i was Deputy Council on president nixons watergate defense team. And i was there throughout the scandal and its unfolding. I transcribed the white house tapes. I ran the document rooms holding the seized files of the watergate defendants. And i staff nixons counselors. On watergate issues as you all know it ended rather badly president nixon resigning in disgrace and two dozen members of his administration going to jail. Ive pondered ever since what exactly went wrong in our response to that burgeoning scandal. Without really coming up with any answers. That is until i learned some time ago that the watergate prosecutors files. At least those that survived are maintained at our national archives. The prosecutors were after all technically government employees. I spent a lot of my time ever since reviewing those files. And thats a bit about what im going to talk to you tonight. But its been 50 years. Since the scandal and the backstory is rather complex. So were going to approach this in two ways. Im going to give you my own one minute summary, and then im going to expand a little bit on that. Nixon was defeated. But it turns out the prosecutors cheated. They also left a paper trail. And thats what ive been spending in the past few years uncovering. Its simply astonishing. What they committed to writing. And their documents change everything weve been told about watergate. They met secretly with watergate trial judges. They suppressed evidence that was favorable to the defendants. They told outright lies to grand jurors and to congressional committees alike. And none of this was pursued by the press by the socalled investigative reporters. There were clear leads at the time of what was going on. But those leads were never followed up. Because any such information wouldnt fit in with a narrative. That was being told. That was being fed to the American Public. Is taken 50 years, but the truth is finally coming out and the memos ive uncovered are now all publicly available. You know when they talk about the Scientific Method in sciences other than political science. They talk about the ability to duplicate the experiment the whole point of the Scientific Method is heres what i did if you do the same thing, you should get the same result. What distinguishes my work . I think from everyone elses on watergate. Is i constantly cite memos. The memos exist they are available now to the public at the national archives. Now, lets dig a little bit deeper into the scandal. Because it gets pretty complex. But i suggest to you there are three things you can take to the bank. There are three undeniable truths about watergate. There really was a breakin. There really was a coverup. President nixon really did resign and Everything Else is up for grabs. Everything else youve been told is subject to question in light of what ive uncovered. So lets talk about the breakin. Five burglars were caught redhanded on june 17th 1972 in the watergate offices of the Democrat National committee. There was a thorough investigation. But it wasnt necessary for prosecutors to establish who had known of the breakin plans in order to convict the burglars. The career prosecutors decided to pursue the easy convictions first. And then see if facing long jail terms loosened their tongues. This approach really frustrated the selfappointed trial judge chief judge, john sirica. He wanted to use the trial in his private search for the truth. Whatever that was behind watergate. Perhaps his frustrating at the opening of trial five of the defendants pleaded guilty. So the trial really didnt amount too much. And at the end of it the judge expressed his disappointment. Called for a Senate Investigation and gave prosecutors a list of eight nixon people he demanded to be brought in front of the grand jury. Well, the judge wasnt all wrong because there really was a coverup. You see when the burglars were caught. The question was who else knew who knew in advance of this planned break in . And it turned out some pretty senior people had advanced knowledge. But its very clear that those people. With the possible exception of john dean all worked for the committee to reelect the president the Reelection Campaign committee. Its never been shown that any senior officials on the white house staff itself. Had advanced knowledge of the plan breakin. But the coverup sucked some of them in so the old saying about its not the crime. Its the coverup comes true because if we had stopped the movie at the time of the breakin. People on the white house staff would not have been adversely affected except for john dean. So if you want to picture what happened, its better to assume john dean worked. For the reelection committee, not for the white house. He was supposed to represent. When the cover of fell apart as it should have its instigators race to make their own deals with the prosecution. The situation became hugely politicized we see that today when prosecutions become politicized that go off the rails. A new force was brought in. Created from scratch the Watergate Special prosecution force and consisted of a hundred people from the beginning. It operated without guidance or supervision of the department of justice. And it promised to investigate every allegation of wrongdoing lodged against the Nixon Administration since it first took office. In its own way. It was something of a legal pilgrim. Especially recruited and highly partisan prosecutors operating without any budgetary or manpower restraints. Targeting loads of specific nixon people for investigation and prosecution well that took its toll and that brings us to our third undeniable truth president nixon really did resign haunted by his Oval Office Tapes hounded by the special prosecutors. He announced his resignation in an address to the nation on august 8th 1974. He was then pardoned by president ford. But two dozen members of administration were convicted and sent to prison. In the breakin the cover up in the plumbers trials. Now this is interesting. President nixon was never brought in before an actual trial. He wasnt tried in court and there was no Actual Senate trial. In either of those two instances, his guilt had would have had to have been proven. Under the rules of evidence by witnesses under oath subject to crossexamination. But that was skipped. So the formal presentation of what nixon was accused of having done . Never got into court never got before the senate. Now he was convicted. All right by the media. He was convicted by the senator irvin hearings and he was convicted in the court of public opinion. But nothing formal and that gap leaves plenty of room for doubt and for discussion in between the breakin arrests and president nixons resignation and then the conviction of his senior aids were two and a half years of watergate stories as the scandal unfolded. And all america was mesmerized by the Senate Hearings by the prosecutions and by the impeachment inquiry in the house. Were now in the midst of the 50th anniversary of that period this past labor day. Marked the 50th year from the fielding breakin. That was the breakin into the Beverly Hills offices of Daniel Ellsberg shrink. Looking to see what his plans might be for further leaks like the pentagon papers. Its not really connected to watergate, but the breakin was planned and executed by gordon letty and howard hunt who were connected. So it planted the seeds that blossomed into the watergate. Right about this time right about thanksgiving 50 years ago. John dean was recruiting gordon, liddy. To design a Campaign Intelligence plan. Its unfortunate that he picked gordon. Its unfortunate that gordon got a little carried away. With his plan it involved proposals for mugging bugging kidnapping and prostitution. So one of the fair things to say is that some of nixons people . Were hardly blameless in all this the question was how high up the rot went and thats where all the arguments exist even to today. As watergate unfolded a heavily partisan media. Helped to assure that the victors were lyonized. That the vanquished were villainized. And afterwards they told us the system had worked and that justice had prevailed. Well not exactly. In fact given what ive uncovered you my conclude that the system didnt work and there was no justice for the watergate defendants. Those things are covered when jim talked about me book. He didnt hold it up. So let me hold up my book, which is available to you today. Its my view of what happened back then coupled with 50 years of disclosures based on my research. Its sort of a personal memoir of my involvement. And a topdown review of how we would we would view watergate today. There are three reveals. In the book and in todays circumstances that make it very relevant. To whats going on today . First is the unsealing of the watergate roadmap. Second is the discovery of caches of documents that were improperly hidden from public view prosecutes prosecutors documents and third is the filing of a complaint of attorney misconduct. And ill go through each of those for you because thats what makes it fun today 50 years later. When the prosecutors decided that it was inappropriate to try to indict a sitting president. They settled on helping arrange his impeachment. And the way they decided to help was to take grand jury evidence. That they had gathered for criminal prosecutions. And convey it to the house of representative where it could be used to secure nixons impeachment. And they prepared a secret report. And it was called the roadmap. Because we were assured it would lead to nixons impeachment. It contained secret evidence. That would certainly lead to his impeachment. But since it was sealed grand jury information, it was also sealed from public disclosure. And members of the White House Defense team never knew what was in the roadmap. But the American Public was assured whatever it was nixon was guilty because it was irrefutable the prosecutor said so the roadmap remains secret for 45 years. And it was only recently made public in 2018 in response to my court petition. So for the first time in 45 years. We could learn what the accusations were against Richard Nixon. And you wont know of them because they disappeared. It turns out. That the accusations included the charge that Richard Nixon had personally approved the payment of blackmail to one of the watergate burglars. Now in those days its different today but in those days they hadnt been an impeachment for hundred years. And it was generally believed that in order to void an election to remove the president. You had to show he personally had committed a crime. As as grievous grievous as treason or bribery which are named in the constitution. And the special prosecutors said dont worry. Weve got it. We can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt nixon personally approved the payment of blackmail to howard hunt. We can tell you when he did it. But this charge was conveyed in secret so i didnt learn about it until 2019 when i got around to reading the roadmap. The second Important Development recently is the discovery of confidential prosecutor files . In recent years, ive uncovered four caches of internal documents. That the prosecutors took when they left office. Now youre supposed to do that. These are government documents, but its no wonder they took them. The prosecutors have incredible powers particularly when coupled with the use of a grand jury. But they have to work within certain rules of conduct. Reflect in the due process guarantee set forth in a fifth in the sixth amendments. Special prosecutor Leon Jaworskis confidential watergate files surfaced in 2013 40 years after the fact those of philip lock of our council to the special prosecutor the one who did most of the staff work for the special prosecutor. Surfaced in 2020 both caches of documents are available today at the national archives. Those of Archibald Cox the First Special prosecutor and of his top assistant james vornberg. Are now available at harvards law library. Theyve declined to return them to the archives where they should be but you can see them at harvard. In each of these four instances in each of these four caches of documents. I was the first to have access treasure troves of new information. And when ive uncovered detail incredible wrongdoing by the prosecutors, they were so eager to nail nixon. And there was no supervision. From the department of justice that they got carried away. And what is just astonishing to me . Not that they got carried away. You could predict that. But they wrote memos bragging about it. And ive got the memos. The Third Development is the filing of a complaint of attorney misconduct and this is honestly, this is delicious. Its not in the book. But this is delicious. The department of justice established after watergate a special internal affairs unit whose only job is to investigate and report on allegations of misconduct by department of justice attorneys. They have incredible power. But this is an internal affairs unit whose job is to make sure they didnt overstep their bounds. On october 3rd, which is two months ago. I filed a formal complaint of attorney misconduct about what the Watergate Special prosecution force attorneys did 50 years ago. And i found it electronically the same day i discovered this group existed. And then the next day i sent them my books which detail the documents in the wrongdoing. And then about a week later i sent a registered letter and i said now dont think youre going to be getting out of this because this is 50 years ago. Because the same attorneys who did wrong who cut too many corners. Are the ones who took their documents with them and prevented discovery of their wrongdoing. So this is ripe. Now all ive heard back is official notice that theyve received the complaint and they will launch an investigation. But this is really delicious. Ordinarily when im at a Cocktail Party or something and people come up. You know, what about watergate and i start telling them their eyes glaze over because the facts are complex and the stories are too convoluted and they decide to go get another drink. But this group. This is their job. I i just hope and pray on granted an audience because i could go on for weeks. About the wrongdoing done by these specially selected prosecutors. Now this to kind of understand how this game ought to unfold if you read detective stories. The hero is a tough cop whos trying to bring the bad guys to justice any cuts some corners. In the name of pursuing justice, but every Police Department has an internal affairs unit. And these are the guys with with straight spines who are sticklers for adherence right to the the strict rules and their cast is the bad guys. Will the office of professional responsibility is that group within the department of justice and if you go on my website and ill tell you about that in a minute. Ive reproduced my complaint. So well be interesting to see where that leads. Id relish wallowing in watergate with a group of prosecutors whose job it is to decide whether their colleagues cut too many corners given the dozens and dozens of memos that ive uncovered. Now i dont really care if those members of the Watergate Special prosecution force who are still alive if they get disciplined they basically retired. But what i want shepherds goal is for the Justice Department to come into court . Like you may recall they did in the senator ted stevens case. Where they went in and they confessed error and they said we cant stand behind these disconviction because of the wrongdoing by our own attorneys. Imagine for a second the upheaval that would cause if the department of justice disowned the convictions in the coverup trial into plumbers trial and the naming of president nixon as an unindicted coconspirator because of lies told to the federal grand jury. Well all this is all this except for that complaint because it came after the book was at the publisher. All of this is extensively detailed and documented in my revised website. Www. Sheppard on watergate. Com now those of you who happen to be lawyers may remember from law school the prominent professors all had case books. And they were inevitably named after themselves as authors. So was prosser on torts and chad born on evidence and casner and leech on Real Property and and gellhorn and bice on administrative law. Well, i consider myself to be an authority on the Watergate Prosecutions. So ive named my website my digital casebook his name shepherd on a watergate. Com. Most authors develop their website to sell their books. I want you to buy my book. But my website approaches this differently. It has more detail about watergate than you might ever want to know. It has links. Not just to the troubling memos in my books in my essays. But some peripheral things to my complaint of attorney misconduct, you can see it. Its right there. You can read it. To the offbroadway stage play that we produce this past august. Is called trial on the potomac . And its kind of fun. It portrays the impeachment trial that president nixon might have received if he hadnt resigned. The only stickler is everything ive uncovered since comes out at that trial. And the audience is left to ponder if everything we know today was known back in 1974. Could the democrats have have mustered the 67 votes necessary to remove him . We dont know but thats what the play asks. I also did nine hours of video interviews with hugh hewitt. Here at the library in 2020 thats posted and i did 18 hours of lectures at Temple University in philadelphia in 2019. Now the hugh hewitt lectures are all oral and more fun. The temple lectures are accompanied by about 200 slides powerpoint slides. Citing documents or portions of books that build a case for all of the wrongdoing. What my wife of 48 years terms my nixon obsession has been all consuming. Imagine what she goes through. But by making my Research Available online. I helped to make the true story of Watergate Prosecution prosecutors, really the persecution of nixon and his top staff. Publicly available to students to scholars to researchers and over time to bend the arch of history. Its pretty much agreed today that the first impeachment of andrew johnson. Back after the civil war was politicized in baseless. Its growing that theres agreement that the 1960 election was stolen from Richard Nixon. Thats not such an outlandish thought at all. I hope i live long enough to see a situation. Where it becomes generally agreed or at least understood by a number of people that the Watergate Prosecutions were not done fairly were not done with regard to the fifth and sixth amendments that in a time of National Political turmoil the guarantees of our constitution didnt withstand the onslaught of partisan prosecutors. You see nixon really was driven from office. By a secret cabal of specially recruited prosecutors vindictive judges and highly partisan congressional staff. The documents i have uncovered proven. Im eager to take questions. Thank you, jeff. Thank you. Chris you take your questions raise your hand up. I will come to you well get through as many as we possibly can. Id like to ask the first question sure it doing your interjection. Jim mentioned that you were a bit frustrated with the watergate scandal and im curious when the moment in time in your life when did that change from when you know, what was the revealing document or the revealing element that made you realize that the president was being falsely accused restore my faith not why did i lose faith . Thats the smoking gun tape restoration. I was on this defense team we were gearing up to defend the president in the house in a senate trial. And we believed we felt the prosecutors believed everything turned on what nixon did on wednesday . March 21st 1973 when john dean came in and said, you know, theres a cancer on the presidency. Its growing its compounding youre going to have to make some pretty important decisions very soon. And you dont know whats been going on. Were being blackmailed. Nixon and dean have both maintained consistently that thats the first time he ever told Richard Nixon about any specifics of the coverup. Thats where the battle was going to be joined. But then out of nowhere, thats march 21st 1973. Out of nowhere came this smoking gun tape from june 23rd 1972 right after the watergate breakin. Nobody knew about it. There was nothing else having to do with it. It was big surprise to the lawyers. Lawyers made a mistake to my great shame. The lawyers misinterpreted the tape demanded it be released it. Was it destroyed nixons credibility and he resigned three days after its release. But that juxtaposition of we were all geared up to fight here and this thing popped out. And and what started it was doubt about that thing and i started learning stuff from other authors and other analysts. Who said that that wasnt designed to cover up . That was designed to protect the identity of two major donors. Happened to be democrats and i it took me a lot of time a research and i was ready to make that case. When john dean published a book in 2014 called the nixon defense. And a footnote at page 55 if you care to look it up, he says, you know funny thing the smoking guns been misunderstood all along his lawyers misinterpreted. It was really to protect these donors and if nixon had known he could have lived again to fight another day. Im quoting in short the smoking gun was shooting blanks, so i went back forget that forget the smoking gun. It was a mistake. Im sorry, but it was a mistake come back forward to march 21st. Now i transcribed the tapes. This is a long answer chris, but you asked i transcribe the tapes. They are hard to transcribe. These are not easy conversations. The Audio Quality is is terrible. So when youre transcribing them youre reaching for the words youre trying to get inside the head of the speaker. Where are they going with this conversation . Now to be fair. The initial cut at those transcriptions was done by rose woods, the president s secretary and her assisted marge acker. But fred bazaart told me that work turn on these tapes over. And weve got to know whats on them. You can follow the conversation. They probably couldnt but we cant be surprised if theres something on those tapes so get every word you can well thats hard work. And i believe there are very very few people who have listened to the tapes. And there arent very many who have really studied the transcripts. But in my view and ill go up against anybody with this view. Hes told about the black male on wednesday, march 21st by john dean. Then and the answer of that meeting is getting John Mitchell down here from new york. Lets figure out what an earth to do. They meet again that evening and theyre still they dont know what to do. Mitchells coming down the next day. They think mitchells guilty as he can be. And the goal is get mitchell to take a fall. Thats how were going to get out from under this. But the next day mitchells not interested in taking a full. And what they come up with is will send john dean to camp david. Its right there on the tape. He will write a report. Hell write a report of what he told me the day before. And i will use that report to call for a new investigation and i wont claim executive privilege. My staff will have to go back now. Its a little unclear on the tape. Whether they mean back to the urban committee where it will be public. Or back to a grand jury where it will be private. And theres no question. They dont want that report to say too much. Guy put it as favorably as you can. But theres no doubt on that tape. Nixon is going to call for a renewed investigation and not claim executive privilege. Thats when it rebuilt my faith in the president picture. This is unfair to president nixon. Picture this kid in knickers raised by a devout quaker mother who says now dickey . Dont lie the truth is always going to come out. Dont dig yourself in deeper, and it was a spasm response from the president people dont understand that. When he used to talk about alger hiss the communists that that from harvard. It wasnt an obedient. It was his was a communist in the 1930s the statute had passed. What got him in trouble was he lied about it . Thats what brought him down and nixon the furthest thing from his mind would be to lie. So hes told this terrible thing his staff. He didnt want to send him to jail. But his reaction is we got to have a new investigation. Thats a long answer to your question. My friend next answer. It was good. Thank you our first question from the audience. Um, why did why did nixon force Richard Klein dean stout as attorney general cline deens a goldwater man would never have hired archival cox who was a kennedy man. Clindings asked to resign because of his closeness to John Mitchell findings was mitchells deputy. It was becoming fairly clear that mitchell was in deep trouble. After john dean had hired gordon lady and gordon developed this plan. They went over to mitchells office. In fact, its kind of ironic if i may libby shows up. On december 10th, not too far from today 50 years ago and hes talking about a half a Million Dollars or a Million Dollars for this in Campaign Intelligence plan and jeb magruder. Who is the acting head waiting for mitchell to come over from the department of justice. He says gee the only person with authority to commit that amount of money is John Mitchell and hes not here. We have to go see john. So they troop over to the Attorney Generals Office. John dean magruder and gordon lettie and gordon presents this incredible plan in the Attorney Generals Office and then they went back a second time. So mitchell was and dean. Were both worried about guilty knowledge of the plan breakin in advance. Henry peterson came over to see the president and said your your john deen is telling the stuff. You wouldnt believe youre going to have to remove haldeman and erlichmann and mitchells going to be in real trouble too. So clinding said i cant be a part of this. Its appropriate that i resign. The unfair thing is that the president begged cline dankst . To let him announce his departure at the same time. He was announcing the the departure of haldeman and erlichman and john dean and that was unfair to declindings. There was a task force set up designed to bag cline dinks because the itt hearings. He he pled to a misdemeanor. He and dozens of other peoples reputations were ruined but it wasnt nixons idea that klein dink should go was clindings idea. Our next question, sir. Hi, do you think had there been an alternate media back in 73 like fox news that things would have come out like they did in the investigation against donald trump. A good question and of course the short answer is i dont know. The the situation back in the 70s was dramatically different from day there were only three networks abc nbc and cbs. They were two influential papers the New York Times the Washington Post and there were two weekly news magazines, newsweek and time. And they were uniformly liberal. We called it the liberal eastern establishment. No fox news. No talk radio. No podcasts. No alternate point of view. So either what you had to say with consistent with their narrative or it never saw air . There were no other side. We could not get our news out. No investigation of wrongdoing by the other side there were indications. One of my favorite and i i think its in the back of this book. Its at least its at least referenced. Bob woodwards notes are at the university of texas . And he was first person to interview Leon Jaworski after jaworski had left washington and and jaworski left before the coverup trial was underway. So on december 5th 1974. He sitting down with jaworski. And he must have said wow, you caused quite a change in washington. You know, you got nixon de resign you you handle it through the through the pardon. And then theres this code its type so you cant miss it. Says there were a number of oneonone conversations. Theyd only he and the other party know about. And then the next paragraph this is the top page of the interview the next paragraph jaworski goes on to say you know the house impeachment inquiry really didnt know he didnt have any idea what they were doing. So we staffed them. We supplied them with what they needed to bring their charges against nixon. Well, here are two incredible leads. For bob woodward me who could who could dwarski be talking about he was talking about meetings the secret meetings with judge, sureka. There wasnt anybody because we know now that they occurred. But there was no followup. There was no interest in the story on the other side and i i blamed that on the desire to meet with a narrative today. Unfortunately, you have two narratives and its almost like Different Things happen. You dont you dont talk . Half the nation is gets their news from one source and half from other its very unfortunate you cannot. Be certain of anything you read . Thats why i started out by saying theyre only three facts you can count on there was a break in theres a coverup and nixon really did resign. Its its really a terrible situation today, and not just one side. Both sides are so eager to have you believe their point of view they cut corners. So but the answer is i dont know if it would have been different or not. It would have been different if this stuff had come out. You know any of the convictions would have had to be vacated they might have been retried. A fair trial for haldeman and erlichman and mitchell might properly have been held in, richmond, virginia or baltimore, maryland. We might have learned it wouldnt have been presided over by judge. Sureka thats blessed sure and we might have heard more testimony by and about john dean. Heres a guy who masterminded the coverup and walked free. Absolutely walked free. I mean he he sends to one to four years in prison. But sarika writes in his book it was done to establish his credibility as a witness. And then a week after the convictions are secured. He set totally free. And then it turns out he never spent a night in jail. He was assigned to a witness Holding Facility and john dean in three separate interviews much more recently said, you know, i never went to prison. And its almost like he believes he wasnt filmed guilty. You know that it the witness protection was for his safety. Would you of course is nonsense who else who is brave enough to ask a question see right, sir . You sort of answer part of what i was thinking about. Do you think any of these people with the information that youve discovered will now take it and decide to i wouldnt say contrition, but but whats begin to have a more open. I mean not just the people that you mention but im thinking news people who that generation created their their whole image on that and still their reputations. Yeah, let me give one diversion first. Before woodward and bernstein. This is my memory. You had reporters. And that was news and you had opinion writers and those were on the editorial page and the reporters names werent carried. Under their story. They just reported on the story in journalism schools. Taught who what where why and when the 5ws woodward and bernstein became world famous movie stars and got rich and they got to sign their names and thousands of people went into Investigative Journalism and today every news story is signed. And the person writing that story is is tempted to make it as sensational as possible. So youll remember their name so you dont get news you get heres what i think you should think about what happened today. Now give me a question again yeah. I mean outside of just as you mentioned about holding against that smoking gun like you have any of the concession now that the truth is coming out well. No, no, of course not that would be too fun. I nobody has ever disputed. Single fact in my books that i have the documents. I mean, what are you going to say . Oh, no, we did. He wrote about a secret meeting with sarika, but we didnt really do it. Im told there are four stages. When youre someone publishes a book you disagree with and the first in the foremost is ignore it. Ignore it say i i vaguely remember the guy but he wasnt important and i havent read the book so i cant comment on it. Or you pick out some little you know, theres a typo on page 32 so, you know, you cant believe a thing he says. Only if others start to take the book seriously. Do you have to sit down and really slug through it . And i got to tell you that hasnt happened and its unlikely to happen. People and im thinking if one person in particular out here. At chapman said if you put Geoff Shepard on the program, i wont participate. And they disinvited me. It was really. Thats an academic presentation. But john dean is a movie star. John dean was the big draw. They didnt want to lose john dean. It was front page news and they go in the Orange County register that shepherd was was disinvited. Thats why this complaint of attorney misconduct is so delicious. I dont think they can get rid of me. And theyre theyre dilemma. This is straight. You know, i analyze this stuff. I stay awake all night. Their best way out is to claim a technicality. Too long ago. Most of the people are dead. We these arent really our memos because if they hear me out. Theyre going to be in tough tough shape. I have dozens and dozens of memos and theyre all on that website. Im not playing hide the ball. Okay. The real watergate victims have all passed away. There was some thought on an earlier book that their heirs could come in and challenge their convictions, but it never came to fruition, but this is different. This is challenging misconduct by the lawyers themselves. So well see we have time for one last question here. Make it a good one. Ive always been interested in the role of john dean. What was your impression of him at the very beginning . When you first when he first came to work for the Nixon White House, what was your Immediate Reaction or impression . John dean preceded me to the Nixon White House by a month. Hes five years older. He was hired into a more senior position than i was. John erlichman was the First Council to the president and he became head of Domestic Affairs and and had the Domestic Council staff and i think i was his first hire from the outside to be on the Domestic Council and my area of responsibility was basically law and order crime and drugs. So i worked very closely with the department of justice. When john switched from the councils office, he took everybody with him. And then he made a classic bureaucrat mistake as his replacement. He hired somebody who was demonstrably less qualified and less experienced. He hired john dean. And john dean had no staff and basically nothing to do. He told his sentencing officer that his official duties were reviewing. Fulfilled reports on potential president ial appointees and any pardons recommended by the department of justice . Well, i was doing policy work on crime and drugs. There is no indication that dean met with the president more than one time in the first two years. He was on the staff. So there was a project i was in charge of the project a Public Policy project law and order and dean was supposed to contribute something. And he didnt he do any work and i went into my immediate boss bud krogue. And who brought dean he was the one urge dean be higher. And i said dont ever put me on a project again with john dean. Dont ever put dean on a project with me. I was in charge. Because he didnt do squat. And he said well, you know, hes very sensitive as to his rank here. Hes new. Why dont you let me handle dean from now on i have more rapport which probably saved my freedom. Because he sure helped bud. He convinced bud to perjure himself and bud lost everything because of john dean. I didnt like john dean. Most of his colleagues didnt like john dean he had an intriguing ability to appeal to his superiors. But not to his colleagues. And i could go on and on and on. He wasnt a serious guy. He wasnt really there Dwight Chapin interviewed him before he became counsel and he wrote a memo and his memo says it would really be more comforting if we had someone who was loyal to nixon. You know this guys out for himself. Turned out to be pretty true. Thank you very much for coming. This has been a real privilege. What . An introduction for an