Transcripts For CSPAN3 Ukrainian 20240706

Here is the event already in progress. s from the moment we opened our doors religious the Religion Program is our longest owning program. Our work is focused on supporting religious factors around the world as they work to prevent and solve conflicts. For this reason, we are privileged to welcome the visiting delegation from the all Ukrainian Council of churches and religious organizations. Somewhere welcoming back, some i have had the pleasure of meeting on previous travel to kyiv. I also wanted to acknowledge the presence of a couple of special guests. We are also delighted to be partnering on this event with the Eurasia Center of the Atlantic Council, as well as razom for ukraine. We will be hearing from the ambassador to the Atlantic Council later. They have been doing work on this work for quite some time. We have been researching and analyzing, tracing Key Developments and dynamics since 20 team. 2018. We had the pleasure of welcoming the primate of the Orthodox Church of ukraine in 2019. , we published the inaugural edition of our new series focused on ukraine. Last week, we were able to finally publish our fullscale religious landscape by date study of ukraine, available for download. Certainly it speaks fairly extensively. Through this work, we have come to see the many intersections of religion in the war. Role of the faithbased organizations represented here, the crucial role they played in the early weeks and months of the work war in terms of providing humanitarian services and leave. We have seen more negative and destructive sides of the intersection of religion and the war, such as russian missiles and artillery strikes on religious facilities and churches. We have also seen a complex politics and security concerns rise around the historical ties of one branch of ukraines Orthodox Church to russia. Through all of these complexities and challenges, they have been a unique and crucial voice, allowing the religious leaders of ukraine to speak collectively and in solidarity with each other. I am now delighted to turn things are over to mascha unvanovich. Thank you. It is a pleasure to be with our panelists and everybody. Many of you are experts in this area. I will not do and introduction because we do not have much time. I want to go right to questions. We will have about 20 minutes of questions from the, then from the audience. I have two instructions. The audience the thinking about the questions, getting ready. We are hoping we can do at least one round of questions. First, i would like to ask the metropolitan to lead us in prayer. At this moment, we remember all those who have fallen in ukraine, fighting for freedom of our country and all the world. We keep in prayers ukrainian soldiers, peaceful inhabitants who lost their lives, who suffered because of russian aggression, invasion, lost their homes, their relatives. We pray for refugees, for those who are wounded, who suffer because of mental wounds, and we pray indeed for peace, for long peace for ukraine. We ask for help for everyone who helps to provide this, who is working to create peace for ukraine, for europe, and for the entire world. I ask to keep one moment in silence in remembrance of all those who lost their lives because of this russian invasion and aggression. [moment of silence] thank you. Thank you, metropolitan. I will turn to you first. I was hoping maybe you could set the stage for this discussion and tell us the purpose of this trip. It is an ecumenical trip, which is significant in and of itself, and what you hope to accomplish here in the United States. First, i would like to thank our good partner, the United States institute of peace, as well. We thank the foundation which helps our delegation to be here on behalf of all our delegation, we thank the Atlantic Council, all our partners who made this possible, because even to reach the United States, or those who live in ukraine, it is a hard topic, but we are here because many important reasons. First, we would like to express our deepest gratitude to the people of the United States, government, nongovernmental organizations, all of those who are supporting crane in his ukraine in the starkest time of our history. Darkest time of our history. Deepest gratitude to those who understand our suffering, share our pain and who really help us to achieve as soon as possible victory. Our goal is to present in person ukrainian religious freedom, diversity, deep Mutual Understanding and cooperation. NonGovernmental Institutions, which created more than 25 years ago. We have 15 members, different churches who represent almost 95 of the entire canadian religious community. Ukrainian religious community. We have different representatives. It is a unique example of not just peaceful coexistence of people who have different faiths, Different National identities, but the end of truthful mutual cooperation d eep and truthful mutual cooperation. For more than 25 years, we have had a number of meetings abroad. We know from our experience how it is important to present ourselves, because just now, in the current world, i think it is one of the most important examples of peaceful coexistence. We intend to bring this good news from ukraine. Inside ukraine, we have this cooperation. We have enjoyed freedom of religion and belief. We really protect this right. Last but not least, our goal is to share our experience. We have russian atrocities, what is going on in our country, we have cooperation with different people from the grassroots level. We understand what our nation needs and we tried to share with our partners here. Altogether, we are able to prevent very real catastrophe or a third world war. I think we helped with the partnership of all people. We have been united around the globe. Thank you. Rabbi, i do not know if you want to expand on that in terms of ecumenical views and relations among religions in ukraine, for the jewish faith in others . The council of Foreign Relations is that ecumenical. That is what keeps the peace. That is an important point. What brings us together is the fact that we are all representing religious communities of different faiths. When we come around the table, it is not me and my faith against you and yours by us together, people of faith, against the challenges that people of faith have in ukraine in the world. This is the glue that keeps us together. We are it will nongovernmental organization. We did not start out that way, but in 2003 and 2004, the council understood our power by being a nongovernmental organization. That is where our power lies, to have an organization. Thank god we were successful. That is what gives the success and power of the council. I am an american citizen. Can tell from my accent. I am there since 1999. I witnessed ukraine going through the throes of independence at the beginning of the 1990s. Ukraine was lucky, got more than one chance. They got a chance in 1991, 2004, 2012, and now they have another chance. You are seeing the development of a true democracy. That is great. Everything is good. Nothing is happening, but the fact is the difference between the 2004 evolution and 2014, in 2014, blood is spilled. At least in religion, we know that will last and disdain. And stain. I live in ukraine is the head of the Jewish Community. The moment i set the first shot fired, i knew it was over. Saw the first shot fired, i knew it was over. No politics, no diplomatic approaches. That was it. The message we are bringing, first, look at us. This is a real council of religious organizations [no audio] [no audio] [no audio] i think that this is very important for the american people. I understand. Who knows better than you how many people to the rank of ambassador are using are in ukraine today looking up where the money is going. The question of where the money is going should not be to the ukrainian people but the ukrainian government. Im the American Government can account for every penny. Everything is being controlled today. It is not the wild west in ukraine, dcaa smuggling in arms. That is not what were dealing with. This is our message. Not too godly the government but just the wicked people of the United States. We are being held every single day. As is the height of hypocrisy when putin criticizes israel thing there are civilians they and innocent women and children are killed. He has been doing that for nine years every single day, for the last nine, almost 10 years. Civilians, women and children are being arms, homes destroyed. Russia has not conquered any land in ukraine, only destroyed land. This is our message, hope i did not take too much time, but that is our message today to get this message out to people in the u. S. It is so important to hear your witness of what is happening in ukraine today. I think with all the news going on, it is important. I wanted to ask you about the muslim experience in ukraine with crimea building occupied by the russians. What is the situation crimea . Secondly, in ukraine, with so many libyans evacuated . Crimeans evacuating echo thank you for inviting us. We like but we are working with the other one. Because ukraine far as is the government or the land who joined us, we have any possibility which we want to do, we tend to do it in ukraine. About the situation, i want to tell you that we tried many times to of us anyone oppose anyone who wanted to use religion for their political movement. When russia occupied ukraine, and ukrainian people make the revolution, we find somebody who in youtube, they slam government. We find that somebody who can use islam or the Muslim Community to destroy ukraine. We organized the International Community for all the representatives minority nationalities in ukraine, just about 60 organizations. We control the Islamic Movement in ukraine. This leads to your question that is very important to ukraine. Do not give anybody to destroy ukraine like yugoslavia or czechoslovakia. In some information about our child. That is some information about our job. We come here to train everybody. The, we are representative of the majority of the ukrainian cities. We want to speak with the ukrainian and American Cities to understand us. I want to ask the Muslim Community, who helped ukraine . We receive and the delegation comes to the mosque from europe, from america, but without the muslim representatives. We are part at the ukrainian community. We defend our land. Somebody wants to use this land to kill the other and use this one for their political movement, like russia. I want to ask everybody to think about ukraine like one government and one land. Must help us to save ukraine, because for us that is an example for many countries in europe, in america allow make you live altogether. I want to ask the Muslim Community, you help anybody but you do not see the Muslim Community in the ukrainian i am wondering what your communitys experience has been during the war. But also your Important Role in the reconstruction of ukraine. First of all, i want to say thank you to all of you for supporting ukraine. I want to underline that this war is not about our land. This war is about the very existence of our freedom, identity, values and culture. This is about people, about human life. There is no space for the ukrainian identity under russian dominion. So for us, its very clear. Fight or die. And we are here as people of ukraine and i am speaking to you out of bucha because my apartment was occupied and looted by the russians. I am leading a seminary which was hit by six missiles by russians. We have chaplains who were murdered. So please hear our cry. I want to witness that we enjoy religious freedoms that we have in ukraine because for 70 years we have been persecuted by the soviet union. We know what does it mean not to have freedom and now we do have this freedom. And also i want to underline and draw your attention to the problem of religious freedom on the temporary occupied places. We are not speaking about a lot of churches and buildings taken away. We are speaking about people being murdered just because they have different faiths. So because i am in washington and Martin Luther king is one of my heroes, i love his speeches, i have a dream. But here is another quote. In justice somewhere is a threat to justice everywhere. There is a significant existential challenge for justice on the occupied lands. So this is our invitation to think about freedom, justice and i am very proud to see how different religious communities of different faiths and traditions, they join hands in order to help fellow ukranians and we do have big plans to rebuild ukraine. Ukraine has a future because we fight not for land. We fight for values. And we hope that people of the United States who love freedom just as democracy and peace will not leave us alone. Thank you. Thank you very much. To all of you. So i am going to throw open to the floor. I think youve heard a lot of interesting comments. We havent had a chance to really follow up, but this is your chance to follow up. So who wants to be the first person . Is there a microphone . Do you want to bring it over . Could you wait just a second because i think this is being recorded. Yes. I am curious how you all react to the legislation that was under consideration last week in the rata that was attempting to some people might say regulate, control the russian Orthodox Church in ukraine. Just curious how you all react to that. So i am going to speak because i am jewish. I will speak about it. Orthodox. I am also orthodox, right. I want everyone here to understand the challenge that ukraine is standing in front of. The question here is not a regulation of religion and the proof is in the pudding because like i said, i have been leading a team of religion grow and grow in ukraine. No question about it that over the last 33 years that ukraine has been independent, theres been a tremendous, tremendous growth of religious movement, religious freedom. Indeed, when i would say when this government came into power, they had come right after ukraine had created the church of ukraine, Orthodox Church of ukraine, and because that was done by the previous president , so politically there was even some leaning towards what we call the ukrainian Orthodox Church. However, the challenge that ukraine has is when there is a church that is 101 controlled by a government, that is waging war against you, the Orthodox Church in ukraine unfortunately, because there are good people everywhere, including in the church there, however, its become evident when ukraine began by just arresting individual priests that were found doing things or breaking the law and working for russia within ukraine. They did begin with that. They didnt come and say lets get rid of this church. You have to understand that politically it is not a very smart move to regulate a church that millions of People Living in ukraine are members of that church and there is no way its faith. Its not that theyll say move over to the other church. It doesnt work that way. However, at the same time, ukraine has challenged, there is a war going on. That war is what we call a hybrid war. Part of the hybridity of that war is that if russia can work through the churches, theyre working through the chumps and i will give you an example. I am an orthodox jew but in 2005 i personally in my office was approached by two representatives of the Russian Security services if i would work for them and hip them help them create a vuk tur whereby structure whereby they will be able to control the Jewish Community in ukraine and use that structure to disseminate this was told moo he to me openly. They said they will give me all the money that i need and all the power, theyll give it to me, all i have to do is head an organization to help them create an organization and what they told me was the reason is because they said theyre trying to get ukraine to unite with russia. Theyre going to try and work through the Civil Society and organizations on the bottom. So i threw them out of my office but i dont know how many people they wept to besides me that they got to do these things. So theyll use any means that they can to get into ukraine that theyll try and control and bring their point of view and as my colleagues said to take away our freedom because theyre fighting against our way of life which is democracy and freedom. Thats what theyre fighting against. Theyll use the church for that and in general, the problem is that the head of the russian Orthodox Church not only that he blessed the soldiers that go out to murder us, not only he is even collecting money to pay private armies to go to ukraine add to kill people. Thats what is happening because its not a war against of the russian army against Ukrainian Army as we heard. This is a war of the russian army against ukrainian people. Not only ethnic people but russian ethnic people that want to live democratically. Theyre the ones getting killed. I want to remind everybody the parts of ukraine that are now occupied are occupied by ethnic russians. Theyre not ethnic ukranians. Most of the people are russian speakers. What have they done . Theyre murdering them. Theyre killing them, bombing them. There are some that in their socalled constitution is part of russia is being bombed every single day by dozens and dozens of bombs. So the church again, the structure of the church is very difficult. I am jewish, i will be open with you. I say what is the precedent here . Theyre controlling a religion and what happens if somebody else comes up and doesnt like the jews or muslims . This is a very frightening thing. I met with members of Ukrainian Security service about this about what is the balance that they can do to maintain the peace, to maintain the law within rule of law. Current tell somebody ok, if you are a church you can work for the enemy. It doesnt work that way even if you are a man of the cloth and a man of faith. When you break the law, you have to pay for it. This is what is happening. Thats why we are looking at it of course we are all nervous about it and worried about it and we are all concerned about itment but at the end of the day, ukraine has to survive. Ukraine has to thrive as a democracy, and it will not happen if its going to be controlled or parts of it will be controlled from the enemy state while the war is going on. Thank you. If i may. Does anybody else want to add a thought . I would like to add something to this beautiful explanation because i am sure everything that the rabbi has been told. We must understand that in 1943, stalins government created a special institution which have title Moscow Church title and publicly leading by church persons. The Moscow Church is the early or governing body, totally controlled by kremlin. It was during the soviet time and still is during the putins dictatorship. Moreover, during the soviet time was a huge lead because of ideology. Church believe in god, communist party was a community of atheists but now russia officially use religion, every kind of religion, everybody had opportunity to saw meeting between putin and number of russian religious leaders in kremlin. It looked like not a meeting between political representatives and religious representatives but it looks like a report of some officials who reported to his highest boss what has been done. The general problem is that russian Orthodox Church in ukraine is controlled by Governmental Institutions, which bear religious titles but in reality its just a part of government of russia. And what rabbi told this public blessing of russian atrocities, of war crimes, this justification, official justification its not something would happen casually that during the sermon he told something unacceptable. Its a policy. You know that very concept of russian world is the ideology which justified elimination of even ukrainian identity because those who live in this ideology of russian world, they think that ukrainian identity not permitted. And the main goal of this draft law is to protect ukrainian citizens from instrumentallization of russian Governmental Institution because rabbi told that such attempts to control religious life in ukraine is not related to only Orthodox Christians but every kinds of religion in ukraine. This law, it is just about protection of instruments from instrumentallization and we as a representatives of different communities, we can see that no one religious community in ukraine will officially have up to 60 different denominations. Small, big, very different. And only one denomination, moscow, which told that they have no ties, no subordination to moscow patriarchy. They proclaimed the goals that they are independent and only want this denomination that this just law is against our interests. But in this just law, you dont find any specific name of the religion or denomination or confession or religious union. Its just about subordination to moscow. They have no ties, no subordination to moscow. Its not related to them. But if they try to fool Ukrainian Society and all people of good will around the globe and use their feelings to protect religious rights, religious freedom, use to protect kremlin power and control over religious life in russia, in ukraine and other countries. I think it must be clear that its unacceptable, and we as a council, more than half of the year ago, we met with the speaker of our parliament and we have been asked, does anyone in this room, representative of all religious denominations, does anybody against the ban on subordination of ukrainian religious community to Russian Centers . No one raised their voice that we are in favor, we try to keep this subordination. Everybody agrees that we are all against, because we and the bishop said it, we have huge experience of more than 70 years living under kremlin control of religious life. And we very good know what is what it is and especially we know from experience on occupied territories, where no freedom at all including religious freedom, to no one, if you not loyal to russian government, you have no rights. Its no matter, you are christian, orthodox, jews, muslims or someone else. And i think that this law must be treated as a law which has aimed to protect religious freedom from instrumentallization by kremlins dictatorship. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry. This is a really important question. Thanks for asking it and thank you for the full answer. I dont know if either of you wanted to add anything to that. We support everything what has been said. We dont see this war as a threat. We know what does it mean to have no freedom. So we know that, so ee ven jell cal community, we understand our country must protect itself. We dont see this law as a threat for religious freedom. Its a very good dialogue we have between our communities and the fellow government. I think that by we try to make contact with the representatives of religion in russia and also we spoke about our situation about ukraine, about the friendly relation, but they couldnt decide anything. They couldnt decide anything. And when occupied now, some parts, they tried to open a new religion organization. They dictate the people to do that. And everybody left ukraine and go to turkey or to germany, to america like this. I want to add one thing. Another thing that i want to add. When they went to that meeting in oslo, they can all atoast the fact that at the meeting of the council, we spoke about going to oslo, i voted against it. I told them that theyll all be prepared by the f. S. F. Every single representative that came from russia was prepared by the Russian Secret Service for this meeting with ukrainian religious leaders. They werent prepared by the in other words you talk about a democracy, you do your thing. Over there everything and everyone is controlled by the government. This is the danger and thats really what the law is addressing. I think we have time for one more question. Yes. If i can add a catholic voice to this question which is raised by many, which is parroted by Tucker Carlson and company even in the last 24 hours, in which its planted by a genocidal power that has declared that its intent is to eliminate ukraine as a country, as a culture, as an identity. Its very important to understand who is talking about this and who is bringing the attention of American Government, american institutions, global the Global Community to this question. In russia, as was said but i would like to amplify, there is no real religious freedom for anybody, any confession. All confessions are equally or not equally but all confessions lack religious freedoms. My church has probably about half a million members in russia. The ukrainian Catholic Church, the biggest illegal church in the world from 1945 to 1989. Analogy, what is religious freedom . In the United States, we have 200 parishes for 50,000 people that go to church. 200 parishes. In russia, there are 10 times as many. We have not a single registered legal parish. Its impossible. Its impossible for ukrainian catholics in russia to have a parish. There are other confessions that are illegal. Jehovahs witnesses, illegal. The Catholic Church in russia is stunted, involved in selfsensorship. The Orthodox Church is completely controlled and those priests that set an aggression against ukraine is immoral, have been defrocked. In 300 years, every time there is a russian occupation, the ukrainian Catholic Church is rendered illegal starting with catherine, 19th century, 20th century, 21st century. In the occupied area, there is not a single Catholic Priest that is functioning. Roman catholic or eastern catholic. And all of our confessions understand that a russia occupation will bring the limitation or elimination of our religious freedom. So for a voice from russia to question religious freedom, exicted here exhibited here, where in the world will you see an orthodox bishop, a muslim imam, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi sitting together . As you said, look at us. That is very important for people to see because the eyes of the world are only discovering ukraine, and we are very grateful to the institute of peace that fosters this discovery because the issues are not simple. But the image is very clear and its before our eyes today. Well done. Yeah, one more. Thank you. I am asking, in the United States the evangelical community is growing rapidly and it has a unique allegiance to the Republican Party often, a particular part of the Republican Party, and yet the evangelical community in the United States often alliance aligns itself with the russian Orthodox Church for reasons of faith, for reasons of belief. And i find it i have worked with ambassador herbst with this early on that the evangelical community in the United States which is very important politically especially today in the u. S. Congress, today when we are looking at whether or not to fund ukraine Going Forward for the next year, they need to hear from ukrainian evangelical community. They need to hear about the atrocities of the murder and torture of the evangelical pastors in occupied donbas. They need to hear about the lack of freedom from your community. What more can you and the evangelical community of ukraine do to help the community in the United States understand that the russian Orthodox Church is not today for all the reasons youve given, is not the example and that they should not seek to align with it when it has no respect for the evangelical community. What can the evangelical community of ukraine doo to do to help us in the United States with that part of our citizenry . Thank you. This is very important question and we do our best making our story known among our fellow ee evangelical believers. Yes, we see that russian propaganda is extremely effective. And i dont think that only evangelical community can change the perspective of evangelicals in the United States. This is our common goal. Even though i am an evangelical pastor, i am i want to work on behalf not just my tradition but all people of ukraine. This war made every ukrainian my neighbor. Impacting the evangelicals in the United States with information about atrocities and horror of the war, this is our common thing. I believe that this meeting is crucial because we can by our presence here, we can show the unity and this is an unjust war. Of course, we need to have more support and assistance of all people of the United States, not just evangelical but we see this problem. Yeah. Thats a really important question. Thank you. So i think we have had a very rich discussion, which is also a little bit frustrating because i have a lot more questions on just the few questions we were able to go through plus a whole bunch of other ones and i am sure many of you do as well. So i would really like to thank our panelists and i would like to ask ambassador herbst to come up and wrap it up. We can take questions by email. There you go. You heard it. Thank you. Thanks for putting this together and the councils. Delighted to be a part of it. This is a very important event. Putins war on ukraine is a war of war crimes. Its a war designed to destroy ukrainianness, said multiple times by the Russian Media and when they say that, what they mean is to make sure that ukranians in ukraine under russian control give up their ukrainian identity, cease to exist as a community of ukranians, which is why some scholars of genocide called this a war of genocide. This war is a war on religious freedom, too. And its wonderful to have all the major faiths in ukraine represented on this panel and in the audience to make this clear. Its important because its part of the what did you call it . The abomination of this war. Its not simply a war about territory as some naive realists think. Its important too because americans believe very strongly in religious freedom. Part of our constitution. Part of our public debate every day. So the testimony we are hearing today from the faith communities in ukraine of the horrors that they are undergoing in all russian occupied ukraine is important for americans to understand. Its important as my longtime friend pointed out because there is one fraction of one party in the United States which seems to be clueless about american interests in ensuring that putins war in ukraine fails. One part of the constituency in that fraction is evangelicals. We know how badly the kremlin treats evangelicals in russia and in russian occupied ukraine. This is a story that needs to be heard here, not just from evangelicals. Its in all our interests. Then theres something else, which is really important, too. In fact, it has two dimensions. Russian propaganda is a serious phenomenon. They have successfully plied two themes which work against ukraine, which work against common orality, and also common morality, and also against american interests. Theme number one is ukraine is full of nazis and boy, you got to make sure that those nazis in ukraine are defeated. We all know the peculiarity of this because ukraine at the moment russia launched its invasion had not juts a just a jewish presence, they had had a Prime Minister who is ukrainian jewish citizen. Fortunately, the pushback against that, the truth told against that has limited its impact, not entirely. This goes back to a letter that was published in it was the new york times, i think. Back in 2014 that laid out that this was a false narrative and having rabbi bleich and others was important to that. Another very important figure in public ukraine is a man who spent many years in the soviet gulag standing up for the rights of jews to identify as jews, to act as jews including practice of their religion. So that one is not fully under control but largely. But the second one, the second main theme is still metastasizing, thats a mouthful. Thats the notion of serious repression, religious repression in ukraine. Rabbi bleich addressed this when he talked about priests of the russian Orthodox Church who are breaking the law by providing sang twary to russian agents, maybe providing information to russian military, maybe harboring weapons. Of course, beyond that, which is why people are getting arrested in ukraine, not because theyre repressing the moscow patriarchy but there is also the truly nonchristian, nonorthodox, i say that as an orthodox christian, behavior of the m. P. As theyre telling russian soldiers heading to the front in ukraine, hey, if you die all your sins are forgiven. Pardon me, but that reminds me of the notion that the jihadi who gets killed goes to heaven and gets 70 virgins. Kind of similar, huh . Of course, the patriarchy who was an agent of the k. G. B. In soviet times, some habits die hard, is also now funding his own mers mare marys nairies to kill ukranians. It would be nice if certain active American Media types would put that on the air when theyre trying to slander current ukraine. Last point, the most famous quote in the you might say the history of American Foreign policy realism is john quincy had ams adams saying we dont go abroad from monsters to slay. We are the wellwishers of everyones freedom but the guarantors only of our own. Thats a great quote and people sometimes use that to justify us not providing support to ukraine because those people dont understand that if putin wins in ukraine, his next stop is estonia and lithuania. Thats not so relevant to this conversation. Its that other point, the subclause that we are the well wish es of everyones freedom. Well, excuse me, when you have socalled american journalists propagating authors of slander that is not american. Thank you. [applause] thank you very much, ambassador. Thank you to our distinguished panel. I think we want to give you another round of applause. [applause] about two hours