Door listening to Radio Lab radio from don't really know w n y c. Ok so you know the core of our job right is to ask people questions and then we sit there for hours and at the answers and I've noticed that. The answers sometimes have a kind of musicality to them like sometimes you get this that's right no right yes no way right right right right yes oh no I know that those are the sharp stick ato beats Yes you know. This is like the sound of certain. Things. But there are times when you get a completely different music you know like so you're asking a hard question or a clarifying question is it a your is a b. Then sometimes you get this. Certainly does. His. I mean yeah well. You get this kind of melodic wavering and no I don't. I. Don't. You know. In the. Impurely musical terms the pitches in the 1st were like power they're just precise and quick but in that 2nd category the pitches are floating up or floating down they're never stable you're not a normal person really now with like the that's the sound of. You know we could do. We have collected some stories they all have in them they have certainty in what they are kind of collusion it's really kind of situations you can't really walk away from and you can't resolve them so you have to do something and that's the show we should call it. Now you. Have to think about what I'm suggesting as a name are you sure are you. Are you sure. He's ever. Get something started. Who he start with a producer we've worked with for a very long time Lulu Miller actually when she was leaving the show she decided to bike across the country from California to New York and she meets somebody in the middle of possibly the loneliest place in the world. Highway Route 50 and it's just a 2 lane road that crosses the state of Nevada desert desert desert stretches for 100 miles at a time. To ride 100 miles and one day. Oh yeah Ok so we're in the middle of this this expanse of dread. And what happens when we finally make it late in the afternoon to basically our End Point for the day gas station with a little diner and we see out in front of the restaurant this bike. Down with so much dear. Fellow traveler so we went in picked him out immediately he's the only other person in this kind of like biker bar basically wearing Lycra. Early twenty's big red beard this young dude from Kentucky with. His name is name is Jeff . Vineyard so his story was that he he was about to be getting married and he was supposed to be doing this trip with his fiance Megan but sort of at the last minute just due to wedding planning logistics and all that she had decided not to come on the trip but you know so he's doing it alone and just kind of thinking of it as a little bit of reflection time before he gets married Ok he had just finished grad school in geosciences so geology and like tracking earth statistical data and he was going the same direction that you guys are going he was going our way to and he said you know all that mind if I ride with you to the campsite he said sure and then we ended up. Riding together for about 11 days so you got to know him really got to know him. This is us in Nevada. You know oh well it was amazing year and that's and singing. The other little part to tell you beforehand is just that Jeff grew up very religious grandpa was a preacher. And his fiance Megan also a very devout very religious has always felt the presence of God. He actually met Meghan through his church they met all doing mission work down in Louisiana. Ok so we meet this duty as a geologist he sings all the time and about 3 or 4 days interacting together. Because we kept on writing I mean. We make it through one of the hardest days of biking ever and we finally make it to Cedar City Utah and we decide to go out for pizza to celebrate we're taking 1st by and then Jeff who's usually so just like polite. Sweet he slams down his repair and he says I was supposed to be getting married today whoa. What does that mean Oh all right that's what we thought we were like what Finally he told us this whole story that actually a couple months before the bike trip one Tuesday they were making dinner together we were at her house we were cooking and he basically suddenly felt this feeling inside his chest like right behind Mr and I'm just I don't believe in God anymore really. Yeah this just landed on him out of the blue completely without warning we we're we're what it was it did it feel like. I don't know I only even know if it was like words but it was just belief in God. We had been terrified yeah who wouldn't be he believed in God his entire life and now gone just was he thinking about something or I don't know I kept asking him and that was the best he could say and Megan saw the look on his face and asked him what was wrong I didn't say anything at the time that I'm just like just have indigestion you know. A few weeks later I filter in on that and that was probably you know Meghan the person of deep belief and that was something she wanted her husband to be at least somewhat on board with so. They put the wedding on hold postponed it in good faith that we will work things out so in a way what he was doing on the bike trip. Was literally like scanning the hillsides to find some evidence of God to win back his bride Oh so this wasn't like a pre wedding reflective right thing at all no way and you're saying you want to evidence yes evidence or proof I wanted to be on one side or the sensor the other is one demand for God was existing you're at all interested in people show yourself there is no reason you shouldn't Jeff was waiting for some signal from the landscape there is a time where I'm climbing up this mountain when comes up behind me and like I'm thinking wow this is great it feels like I'm being pushed in is this just the wind or is this something else I don't know and for the 3 weeks I've been writing nothing it really convinced him. He was just frustrated despondent angry and 6 days after what was supposed to be Jeff's wedding day June 4th. We. Part ways and then I had no idea what became of him. I didn't hear anything from him for almost a year. And he called and said that he was on a little road trip and he's going to be passing through Charlottesville and could he stay with me for a night. Hello hello I said sure do you want to set that you want to set the scene for us and basically the 2nd here arrives I asked him Ok so what happened if you found God are you with Meghan and I wondered like where you are. You know. He told me that toward the end of his ride he started to get really anxious Ok trips almost over got like a week. And are you thinking like lightning bolts show me an Angel what do you what do you hoping to see you know anything and then he tells me there was a point outside of Hazard Kentucky his feeling really low and then I was eating lunch at Arby's and. This is where the story gets embarrassing to a ceiling tile fell on my sandwich Ok yeah and like a plaster seal you know like one of the drop ceiling tiles splat right yeah and so and then what happened is a guy sitting over at the next table noticed him and walks over and gives me a sandwich and we got to talking and of course like you know he's a minister and and Jeff just starts telling him everything that's going on going on how he's having trouble with his faith and how he's not sure what's going to happen with Megan So we talked about that for a while and at the end of the conversation the man gives Jeff a blessing welcome in addiction have a good journey be safe and I hate to recount it because it just sounds so the ceiling tile fell and the guy came over and talked to me like is that really remarkable but. In that dark place I feel like maybe it was. I don't know. I'm confused. And when he finally made it home to Macon that's what he told her I don't know and. We both just kind of sat there for a long time because we didn't really know what to do with that but. I knew in my heart good I wanted to marry someone who shared my faith and just kept hoping he would find his faith again and this was just a phase or something and it was much bigger than that and eventually I figured out what I wanted to do and cried a lot. And. I went and talked to him at his house she just sat him down and gave him his ring back. It was really sad neither of us. Wanted that to happen we. Cried together a little bit and then I think he needed me to just leave. It was definitely hard to walk out of that room. It didn't work out so. I think it's. So I don't feel. Ok. I turned off the tape recorder and took him out to a really good bar. Again is headed back to Columbus then you know just down. And that's it that was just it that was kind of their ending and I you know I figured that's End of story and then. Another year goes by and luckily we moved slowly on tape and story and a strange invitation appears in my mailbox I open it up and it's an invitation to Jeff vineyard and Megan Sweeney's wedding really. A year goes by you just suddenly get thing to their wedding. What happened all right shall we commence Louis self-command thing well I don't know what happened. Meghan is walking up right now actually. All right well 1st of all like what happened because I know nothing well let's have him tell that story and then I'll go. I had reached a point where I was actually back in attending church I'd found a really friendly congregation here entails. Looking for something familiar because I moved up here in the one person I know is not in my life and I need something else so I wasn't necessarily going for the preaching I was just going for the experience and for the kind of the pew on the bum and the people around you right I mean I was I was singing with our church choir at that point because you know I wasn't really sure whether I had a faith or not but Castano like singing and then he told me one day just some cost on Sunday I don't know what we were singing I don't know what the sermon was about . But we were taking communion and as I was taking the elements I just he said he just suddenly felt like. The air charge. Like there is a palpable presence all around. Just just almost like a tempest. I felt there was something there was it something you felt up in your head. Was it something you felt sternum mostly. Beneath the sternum the tightness the hand something touching there. Very strange I don't know what to make of that still. I'm still not sure if it was something divine and other worldly or if it was just a profound appreciation for the history of that gesture. I had to almost just want to say like death. Right now do you believe in God. You know. It's just really different from what I felt earlier. And that's still very uncertain. Making when when you hear him talk about Doubt is it scary is it something you can relate to I mean how like how does it strike you and he talks about it it is a little scary because I think it's still a hard thing for us keep in mind I'm talking to them 10 days before they're about to get married is that 10 or 11 I think it's 10 Yeah 10 sometimes it seems like we're really close on how we believe and sometimes it seems like you are miles apart it's it's confusing sometimes but that's I don't know I'm Ok with a Megan or are you Ok with that I am I don't know if it's just. Me still wishing a little but his faith is a lot more like mine maybe I haven't completely let go of that but on a day to day basis we pray together in the evenings and we are able to talk about religious things without fighting with each other and. But whatever differences we do have are Ok now. Love is a choice only after a certain point we just chose that we were going to love each other anyway. We're going to read it into the. Date they go forward in a given area. As a religious ceremony and. They say they're valid I do think that. If you make a. Promise before God and for all. And what was just like as he's saying his values you can hear. You. The biggest sob I've ever heard just like comes out of his voice. Like that it just felt like bigger than him. Just said later. That what that was. Was not the sound of. Resolution. But of relief or. Ori or you know it is the new kids in the morgue and. Aid. Groups. Thanks to producer Miller we'll continue no. Can do 2 I really. Didn't I'm vegan veneered and I have the credit Ok Radio recorded in part by the National Science Foundation. Going by. The Alfred p. Sloan Foundation in Public Understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world where information about. God order Ok I've ended. This is Lilly Sloan in San Francisco Radio Lab was supported by Legal Zoom dedicated to helping Americans with legal needs for over 15 years including business formation and state plans through a network of independent attorneys licensed in 48 states more info at Legal Zoom dot com slash w n y c. I Radiolab this is Mallory and Gretchen calling from Jerusalem Radiolab is supported by move on from print products and features like print finity a technology that gives you the ability to print a different image on every business card learn more at mu dot com. Support for trees who comes from. 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Reports thousands still without power in the greater moderate Bay area primarily in Salinas with smaller outages throughout the K.'s are you listening area more information is that p.g. e Dot com forward slash outages hey. This is Radio Lab today I don't know we're talking about the. Doubtful state of mind constant doubt that's that's a yes you know I mean you wake up and you and you have to get something done and then some little voice inside you says you know. You got to act because you're an adult so what do you do when that case how do you act it without the feeling of certainty Oh hi this is Annie Yes Ok And we've got someone who thinks about this all the time this is an area that I'm pretty well versed at this be your stock in trade this would be very much her name is any Duke on the decision strategist but you might know her better as a bad poker player. Well in 2004 I won a bracelet which is a world championship I also won the tournament of champions that year that was. A lot now when we called up and we had this idea about poker that I think a lot of people have which is that it's like this game about tells like reading your opponent watching the way their nose quiver so that you can tell when they're bluffing or when they've got a good hand. You know tells are actually a very small part of the game she says unless you've played someone a 1000000 times it's really hard to know how to read and what's worse the good players they do nothing doing nothing is the best choice but you try to disappear you pick a spot on the table stare at it so what do you do and. Where there aren't any signals to read and the only thing you really know is that you know nothing well actually what you sort of figure out is that you don't need to know. The real breakthrough moment for me was when I stopped trying to figure out anything with certainty in here anyway not a way of thinking I just wave taming doubt figure out that we find completely fascinating and it has paid off for her to the tune of about $4000000.00 Well you know I think that if we just back up Ok like how did you get to be Annie Duke Well I was I was born and a letter and then I married someone. And he Duke Well I went to Columbia undergrad double major in English literature and psychology. And I went to u. Penn studied cognitive psychology there I had a National Science Foundation fellowship and then right at the end I had this realisation that I didn't really want to be an academic wholly how like what if I do now Ok well I need some money I'll play some poker while I'm figuring it out and then you play a lot of poker to the point no but I'd watch my brother play a lot while she she would come out and she would sit behind and watch that's and his brother this is Howard Howard Lederer he started mentoring me a little bit and I started making money right away she was very competitive as your mother tearing out her here at this point or was she agreed well at that point my parents had just given up hope yeah my brother when he was 18 my grandfather grandfather had the family a 2000 dollars check but the 2 of us to help with college and my brother gambled it away and a little bit around in the bathroom while that might have been the very early phase . I was a terrible poker player Howard has since become a very decorated player and he's also been in the news recently because an online poker company he was associated with called Full Tilt has gotten into some legal difficulties back when he was starting so I started he says he would play in these tiny little games. 36 hours straight which was not a typical For me back then and it was all very seat of the pants but I thought I I arrived in this wonderful situation use fortune he happened to be learning the game which you later teach to his sister at a time you know in 1384 when the game was changing radically. Look poker poker was this Texas gambler thing happening in Vegas like the cliche we just talk about you know you play with your guy with the Texas Dolly and Amarillo slam and who knows what's going on over there but then like in so many other things the geeks took over. Well you know there were these games I was playing in and I was people will pick the change to different times different places but for Howard it began in New York Yeah when he joined us regular game a huge game these are Wall Street traders world champion bridge players brilliant people they get together after Wall Street clothes play for about 8 hours then go to a bar and carefully deconstruct the 8 hours they just played you know hey what were you thinking imagine why did you do that right you you you weren't really bluffing but you made this big bat out of those conversations came a style of play that you now find everywhere here if you Google the phrase right now Hold'em odds chart you're going to be able to hold all them hold them odds chart we ended up talking to our friend Mike about all this money as Mike Pesca cover sports for n.p.r. And he's also spent a fair amount of time in underground poker clubs by the way it's always a misnomer because in New York City they're always on the 9th floor of an office building or something anyway he showed us these these charges Ok well my God look at this thing what if it it's like my nightmare it's like a spreadsheet with tons and tons of numbers Well 1st I'll say this the Mike says don't be afraid these charts this is how you achieve zen. In an uncertain. Ok let's say let me give you a situation let me give you a situation you're playing the game of hold on and there's only one card to the river. Card that is the last card in hold'em and you figure in fact used to explain in Texas Hold'em each player gets 2 secret cards that they can see and the dealer puts down a bunch of community cards one by one that everyone can see in the game is who can combine their secret cards with the community cards to make the best hand exactly now but say one of your secret cards is a heart and on the board the community cards include $33.00 hearts Ok I've got one of my hand that's 4 dealers about to deal no other card and if the last card is a heart damn I would have a flush so I want to know what are the odds of me getting that last heart every decent poker player will know how to calculate this automatically and for the non decent ones well then there's the chart you know there are 13 of every suit the deck you know there are 13 hearts in the deck and there are 3 hearts on the board one of my hand that means that you can figure that there are 30 months 3 months 19 cards in the deck out of the 46 that we don't know about that can complete my flush now look at this chart I'm looking at 9 number 9 is all the way to the right 9 flush draw and when you do the odds you wind up having about a 20 percent chance of victory of getting that last heart yeah. Ok so what do you do in this circumstance when what I want to make my out your odds are 20 percent interest you bet do you go for it you stay in be bold or do you fold I. Prefer I fold totally to full course before I walk away or get out of there I quit the game live to fight another day. No no no no no no no not necessarily. Every poker and he says there are times when 2025 percent sure means Bet Bet Bet I know that sounds counterintuitive and I explain what I mean and this is the none of it right here let's say that someone bad $100.00 and there's already $200.00. Dollars in the pot Ok that means that for you to continue with your hand you have to put in $100.00 so if you win the pot you'll win $300.00 and if you lose the pot you'll lose $100.00 right in order to break even you could lose the pot 3 times because you'd lose $100.03 times that would be negative $300.00 and you could win the pot one that makes a right because you're going to get $300.00 and then you would break even so you could lose $100.00 on Monday $100.00 on Tuesday you lose another 100 on Wednesday but if you win the 300 back on Thursday you're good you just need to win one out of every 4 times so that means that you have to win the pot 25 percent of the time those are your pot odds pot odds are what dictates good bets the amount that's in the pot determines how certain you have to be that your hand which is a really cool concept I think because it if you're pot odds are 25 percent and all you really need to be is 25 percent sure that you have a good hand which you are in the hearts case it's not about winning the hand all the time it's about winning the hand enough of the time that is what you got watching your brother I'm sure that I'm just quoting him and that's warm comfort I mean that's that's weird So the man that's the the probabilities are what you carry care most Yeah because that sort of embracing of uncertainty does some really wonderful things for you if you're in a situation where you only have to have the best hand 25 percent of the time if you're playing well you're going to have a bad hand a lot of the time it's Ok. It's actually irrelevant and that's really the big bonus of this way of thinking you begin to learn how to avoid that very human tendency to feel shame. When you lose. You just flow right above it. If you're making good decisions when you're making good decisions you have to be somewhat outcome blind but. Sometimes that's not so easy now. Case in point. There is no way of it on the planet like it 2000 for. The World Series of Poker biggest tournaments and I want to turn him at this is the handle emotionally 3 people left at the table and Duke this guy Phil Hellmuth was a big player. And his brother Howard they played together for so long had never for 2000000 never been in this type of position 2000000 I don't know why they get their cards every do 6 as I had 2 sixes pretty good he opened with 70000 big fat opening bet over to Phil Phil thinks No Phil Hellmuth immediately gets out of the way again he folds over to Howard Lederer and here's where things get interesting instead of folding like that guy Phil my brother moved in on me. Howard goes all in against his sister decision now to ante with the pocket sixes anythings should I stay in should I bail Well mathematically 2 sixes actually rates to be the best so. Brother it's on yeah. However when they turn over their card to remember she has 2 sixes actually he's got a 7 it turned out he had 27 there gets what he wants a 4 to one favorite. And he knows she's in trouble her brother commanding position and he was 82 percent to win the hand they both knew that if they play this hand $100.00 times he's going to win about $82.00 of the only thing that can save her is if the dealer now turns over 68 percent chance. And here comes the flop. Turns over the cards and he gets are 6 at a full house. And she immediately feels horrendous for her brother. And I won the hand and that's the end of the line for Howard Lederer any knocks or big brother out of the video you see her get enough from the table. She hugs your brother. All this is very difficult for any. You see her emotions. You know any. Look I was 82 percent on the part I was probably working. My sister to know I wanted to win that you know that's that's for sure I was upset Now here's the thing if you if your superior cards do not win the day you know we have a vocabulary to deal with that it's called a bad beat a bad beat a bad beat is when you had the cards that should've won and you got beat Wow there's a term that you'd catch on right there if say in stock investing you're to say look you're invested for all the right reasons but the stock went down because someone you never heard of shorted it that was a bad you know I wonder what like you know this whole rigorous probabilistic way of thinking is it something that you just acquire once you know the math or do you have to 1st be of a certain cast of mind in order to kind of get into it well that's I'm not sure it would work for me you have to be from a pretty unusual family to go to get consolation from that I'll tell you what our families like so. My brother and my brother in law both knew my boyfriend before we me and my boyfriend started dating Ok right and they when they found out we were going on a date they made a market for what the probability way that we would actually end up together together there is a there is a bet he was willing to give. Me $27.00 if they get married I have to give my 100 are from $73.00 to $27.00 What is wrong with you and I was like Are you insane and we haven't gone on a date together exactly they've never gone on a date yet I mean one of the best bets ever. And I seem to be happy to lose that bet I'm going to I'm going to be thrilled but but that's how the gamblers think I mean it's not a bad way or tanks anything it's just that's the way that we memorialize the fact that we had a fundamental difference of opinion. That. 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Bob Garfield on this week's On the media leaks from the intelligence services have unleashed spectacular allegations from Democrats that Russia is the number one enemy the United States of America and if members of the administration are essentially conspiring with Russia that's the definition of treason actually it isn't here the right definition on this week saw the media from w a y c On the Media Saturday afternoon at 4 Sunday evening at 6 on 90.3 k.a.z. . I'm Robert Krulwich This is Radio Lab and we're still talking about certainty versus doubt and in this final story the 2 once again collide but this time it's in a way that's almost unimaginable I remember running along railroad tracks. Just thinking people asking if a train just came along. Like. We need to warn you now if there are younger sensitive listeners listening right now this next piece depicts graphic violence and it can be pretty disturbing So if you're listening with kids this would be a good time to ask them to leave the room or for you to put on headphones this piece comes from our producer Pat Walters I guess we could just start at the beginning so can you just set the scene there is the 905 yes it was 1905 so this is Penny Bernsen an invention 85 painter husband Tom you know I'm. I am here living in Wisconsin on the shores of Lake Michigan in a little town called men to talk on a small 3rd generation family business what kind of business was that branches Candie's open 7 days a week 10 to town $363.00 days a year but sometimes in the summer opinion time would cut out early and go to the beach that's where you want that day July 29th 1905 blue skies in the seventy's perfect day to be at the beach with your family the park the car to 3 o'clock in the afternoon and set up camp near the water and I was reading a book about Lizzie Borden the infamous axe murder but after about like an hour of reading this book penny set it down and said to my husband I can't believe I'm reading this gruesome book on a beautiful dam and go for a jog heads north along the water and when I was within a boat half mile of my starting point there was a guy standing with a leather jacket slung over his shoulder and as I jogged by he said it's a great day I glanced at him and said It's a beautiful day for a jog didn't really think anything of it jog 3 miles turned around and I saw the same guy come out from under a have fallen tree and head towards me she started to run and we should say this next part gets graphic and violent made the mistake of running into the water to try and get away from him and realized how slowly it was running in the water and sight got back to the beach this man caught up with me put me in a choke hold and said we're going to take a little walk up into the sand dunes he pushed me up over this for sand and were no longer visible to anybody started x. Me to do sexual things he was trying to remove my swimsuit and I twisted to try to get away and he tightened his grip and said do what I tell you I've got a knife. 2 thoughts went through my mind. Stay really calm and get a good look at the sky. The blond hair curly beard and moustache very short stubby fingers he pushed me down on the ground and was kneeling over me. When I was refusing he would what he would do was he would strangle me until I would lose consciousness and he would loosen its grip and say no are you going to do it and I would refuse and as I'm talking I managed to get one leg up and I kicked him in the Groene but unfortunately it didn't incapacitate him It enraged him and he said no I'm going to kill you you're going to die Meanwhile Tom is getting worried because she was so predictable in her patterns she would normally be gone 45 minutes to an hour after an hour and a half started pacing the beach at 2 hours he called the cops the police brought in jet skis like were you are you thinking that should I thought I was fairly convinced that she probably had drowned in Manitowoc you don't think about crime you didn't lock your doors you didn't you know many people left their keys in their car he started hitting my head either on a rock or a tree stump some hard object at one point broke my nose and then strangled me tell I lost consciousness some time later Penny woke up when I came to I was lying on my back in the sand just saw that she was naked and. I tried to stand up was too weak and fell over and she noticed when she fell down that her hands were covered in blood and I thought. This is evidence I need to preserve this so I crawled through the sand kind of on my knees on the heels of my hands making sure she was keeping her fingers out of the sail as soon as I saw our I knew that she had been beaten and you know I hope I never see it again. The paramedics rushed Penna to e.r. Next thing she remembers she was lying in a hospital bed surrounded by doctors nurses stitching facial cuts and then there's a female deputy who's questioning me just painted to describe the guy Caucasian sandy blond hair curly stubby fingers the next morning the cops down to the police station for a line in this is where you like go into a room and there's one way more than mere You can see them they can't see you there were 9 guys each of the 9 had a number on their neck from one to 9 she looked at one guy then another then another and when I came to number 3 I don't recall exactly one particular guy in the hair on the back of my neck stood up. 2 to the color draining from my face the reaction since the guy barely any time had passed since the attack. The sheriff wasn't surprised they've had their eye on this guy for a while his name was Steven Avery he'd been arrested 1st some small time stuff Berkeley cruelty to animals and most recently attempted assault rifle point he pulled a gun on a woman so the d.a. Indicted him for attacking penny the trial was fast very fast pending on the stand said I was 100 percent certain that Steven Avery was the man who assaulted me she had no doubt she looked people squarely in the her recollections were unequivocal she was a very strong witness this is Fred Hazelwood he was the judge on the case Cody tell me about his alibi his alibi was that he was working that day to open family ports project out hole that was his testimony in the testimony of a whole bunch of other witnesses 16 only problem was nearly all of them were family and the stories were too similar This is Tom again virtually identical It sounded like they had gotten together and talked there was a credibility issue. To that effect of the defense witnesses and there was one other big problem for avery his clothes there was not a microscopic speck of concrete dust on any of the clothes that he wore that day and he indicated the trial that he had worked the end of the concrete chute Well anyone that has ever done that at the end of a concrete truck knows that that just comes out and splashes after deliberating for 2 days the jury found Steve Avery guilty you know sexual assault 15 years attempted murder 15 years in I believe false imprisonment 2 years for false imprisonment 32 years together to be served consecutively. So you go back to the chocolate shop and try to carry on with life as it was before . Essentially but that obviously wasn't so easy nightmares flashbacks she was angry you know blowing up my kids her husband sometimes I would want my husband protective and other times he would think he was being protective and I would say I think I can take care of myself has just started seeing a therapist which helped a little but even a year after Steve's conviction she was still struggling with all this anger. Steven Avery. Has a number of appeals and he's turned down a dollar's appeals she told the district attorney anyone so I just breathed Steve a neighbor's name in court I want to be notified and I want to be there for every hearing I did show up. I'm getting more and more angry every time there's appeal like is there no fidelity is there no closure to this he kept asking the court to review the evidence over and over again and I'm thinking why is he so persistent. And then one Sunday morning in early September 2318 years after Steve Avery's conviction penny gets a call from her lawyer friend Janine and Janine s. Call and said Can I stop by I want to talk to you about restorative justice and that your cat frankly was the truth but it wasn't why I was driving a Manitowoc on a Sunday on her way Janine called Penny's husband who had left town for a business trip that morning Janine told me what she had just discovered and heard there's about a d.n.a. Test just time to turn around Tom and I both pulled into the driveway together. I walked outside and both of them are ashen and in that moment she knew I knew instantly. All I was remember the look on her face the d.n.a. Is back in it's not Steven Avery she just she just fell apart I told her I wanted to go in and sit down and she went and sat on the couch next to Tom and explained to her there was constant Innocence Project had reevaluated some of the biological material from the crime scene some payors and determined that an innocent person has spanned 18 years. I think it was 18 years one month and 13 days in prison for something he did not do you know she was very frightened she didn't say much I remember feeling if I wrote down every good deed I had done from the day I was born until today it would not possibly be sufficient to balance the scales in terms of this horrendous error that I've made that day was worse than the day I was assaulted and there was one more thing that I learned not only was there an exoneration but there was a hit. The court told me that the d.n.a. Belonged to a man named Gregory Owen who at that moment was in prison for a very brutal rape of a woman in Green Bay Wisconsin you've actually been charged with an attempted assault the same beach where I was assaulted his nickname was The Sandman. Because he liked to come up and grab someone and for 10 years while Steve Avery was in prison he'd walk free I'm thinking how many other women have had their lives turned upside down inside out because I misidentified the man who assaulted me Gregory Allen was serving his sentence a 60 year sentence at the prison and Green Bay in his cell they found a scrapbook where he had documented all the appeals of Steven Avery over all those years that's really creepy that's more than creepy September 11th 2003 Steve Avery was set free. As soon as he walked out of the gate of the prison he was mobbed by reporters it was the news story in Wisconsin and he was considered a celebrity there was a legislator who actually put together a Steven Avery fund that people can contribute to because he really had no resources and no job skills because he's been in prison for 18 years. You know there was a beauty salon in Green Bay that gave mom a call for. I remember sending my husband out of town and saying No I just need to be alone. And I decide I'm going out running. And I remember running along the railroad track a seldom used railroad track but just thinking God it would be a blessing if a train just came along for me it was like. What to a do I can't make this right she says every time she saw Steven Avery's face he was on the front page of the new local management newspaper every day for 2 to 3 weeks 2 things would happen just think how could I have done this to this matter but at the very same moment she thought that the hair on the back of my neck stand up yet and after you know after I knew I knew intellectually he was innocent but emotionally this is the man who I've seen in my nightmares and flashbacks for 18 years so those 2 weeks after that were his faces in the paper every day it must have been very strange it was strange and then it's also strange to feel like an offender Although aside here when I saw Gregory Allen's picture a picture of my actual perpetrator there was absolutely no physical. Reaction from me I would swear I had never seen him before in my life so my therapist said to me you will never be able to attach to Gregory Allen the feelings you have toward Steven Avery what you have to do is work on removing off feelings from Steve and looking at Steve is this is an innocent person. Not long after his exoneration Penny had written to Steve asking if she could meet him and apologize in person and about a year and a half after his exoneration he agreed I was so nervous at the scene are you in like. A 2 room office in a legislative building in the state capitol there's a cell phone a few chairs and he got there 1st. Steve walked in and Steve had his attorney Keith family there from the Innocence Project. Stand up I extend my hand to Stevie gives me this hearty handshake our lives have been intertwined for almost 2 decades since the 1st time we've physically touched. Stone We talked about things like he had a nephew who was killed in a car accident when he was in prison couldn't go to the funeral his grandmother died he couldn't go to her funeral his wife divorced him he's strange from his children at some of them I know he had one daughter who really stood by him and so I brought up these losses apologized for each one individually He's very quiet sort of stood knowledge and with a nod of his head and he said I don't blame you I blame the police because it turned out in the weeks before Penny was attacked the police had been watching because he was a known sex offender they were actually tailing him for the 2 weeks prior to my assault checking on him sometimes as often as a dozen times a day eventually after penny and Steve had been sitting in that little room for a while. There was no more to be said. I stood up and walked over to Stephen. To Steve is it Ok if I give you a hug and he didn't respond he just grabbed me in a big bear hug and I said solemnly he could hear Steve I'm so sorry and he said it's Ok this is over. And for him to say it's Ok it's all over. When I know full well it's his journey is just beginning and he's got a hell of a. That's one of the most graceful things that's ever been said to me. Fast forward. About 2 years after that meeting and get a call from my attorney from the one who delivered the news about the exoneration who said something's happened. Some woman photographer who's missing Teresa Halbach disappeared October 31st after visiting the suspect Steven Avery to take pictures of a car he was selling. They are searching they for property. I encouraged her I tried to tell or stay out of this but anyone in the local news and said I cannot believe this that she didn't believe it could be Steven Avery that she didn't believe he would be capable of such a thing and other people in town thought that too that this was just another false accusation but eventually after a couple of days of searching the search the remains of Teresa's Bobby Brown human bone and teeth are virtually found in a burned barrel at the Avery auto salvage yard Steven Avery claim that he was innocent that he was set up by the police but a few months later his nephew came forward and he told police in an interrogation that the day of the murder he went to Steven Avery's trailer screams inside Steven came to the door in a t. Shirt and gym shorts his sweater and inside the nephew sees to reach the hall back down to the bed. What happens next according to Steven's nephew is one of the most awful things I've ever heard Steven ask his nephew to rate to reset with them. And then together they kill our oh my oh my god. You start questioning your own judgment. I can't even trust my son since I can't trust my eyes to tell me what you know. What I thought I recorded accurately about the world. And then when he gets convicted for killing 2 resets like what kind of character judge him I . Know I can't even judge a character I can't have been certain twice and wrong twice and then a worse thought occurred would Teresa Halbach be alive today if I had misidentified my assailant meaning what exactly like well I Q Steve of something he doesn't do he's convicted he spends 18 years in prison prison is enormously damaging to guilty people what happens to someone who's innocent In other words did her initial certainty that Steve Avery was her assailant did that turn him into the guy who murdered Teresa Halbach I don't know Judge Hazlewood doesn't buy that argument lot at all not at all for one if you look at the group of people who've been set free after a wrongful conviction the vast majority of them do Ok they don't commit serious crimes after they've been released from prison and this was a man with a violent past oh yeah well before penny he pulled a gun on Ormond in the broad light of day and demanded that she fought with them nothing happened because the police intervened but what if they added so all the potential for violence in him. But I would be wrong to say I saw it with Teresa Halbach I didn't I asked him if this case had shaken his confidence in his judgment the way it had for Penny. 1st I tried to figure out what in the world that we do wrong and I pretty much came to conclusion that at least as far as the courts were concerned we did get it right and we still got a bad result that's that's going to be a problem as long as humans judge other human activity we're not always going to get it right but cases like Avery are a rare. 25 years on the bench and 15 years or more as a lawyer before that but I don't think I've ever seen one quite like Steven Avery he says Steven Avery is now a liar is the lesson you don't wear it's a little like I was fishing last spring in Sanibel. Unsellable island and I was in up to my waist. Trying to fly casting for smoke to kind of fish and all of a sudden this rather dark shade. Swam right by the body tree law. But I thought to myself that's a bull shark. In here I am waist deep in the shark swam maybe a foot away from me as he went by what if he bumped into me yeah what are the odds of this happening but you know life is like that we face the other expected the unknown but you're not going to never go fishing there again Ari or No No I wouldn't that wouldn't keep me from goldfish and then again the judge didn't get bitten I kept thinking over and over into this like the family how did they move on after something like this did you call them I tried every chat to a couple of the family members but never heard back. And what about Penny Well she sold the chocolate shop and moved to Chicago I'm retired so right now I'm do a lot of volunteer work. Center on Wrongful Convictions Children's Hospital a bunch of the Morton Arboretum all Friday of things together she seems to be doing just fine I mean I question much more but I question things a lot more yeah I think there's much more doubt and I think I'm much more comfortable living with uncertainty I've kind of had I mean I have to be. Producer Pat Walters. And you know if you're just in hearing more about the story you can check out Pat's interview that he did with the creators behind making a murder which in exhaustive detail tells Steve Avery side of the story pretty amazing series that did an interview with the with the filmmakers that's at Radiolab dot org thanks to Pat thanks to Lou and all the producers who helped us with this episode and thank you guys for listening. 6 burns and calling any Bernstein calling Radio Lab It's produced by Jennifer. 6 Ellen Horne born wheeler that Walters empowered Brenda Farrow Molly Webster Mulisch or donald they were and Keith Lynn Levy and emails with help from little Miller thank. You can't think and they give their end of message. Support for k.z. Comes from the brain clinic of Monterey Bay providing surgical treatment for breast cancer patients with breast disease specialist and surgeon Dr Jessica Santiago information at 4629962 or online Advent Clinic dot com. 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