Lines of social change worldwide. The herb alpert foundation, supporting organizations Whose Mission is to promote compassion and creativity in our society. The john d. And catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Park foundation, dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The kohlberg foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Welcome. What happens when two College Professors leave the theories of the classroom behind for the real world of bareknuckle politics . Well, they learn a lesson the hard way. Just ask Zephyr Teachout and larry lessig. Each is an outstanding scholar. She teaches constitutional and property law at Fordham Law School here in new york, and recently published this highly acclaimed book, corruption in america from Benjamin Franklins snuff box to citizens united. Larry lessig teaches law at harvard and directs that universitys edmond j. Safra center for ethics. Both champion free and fair competition in our economy and our elections. Zephyr teachout ran for governor of new york in the democratic primary against incumbent and friend of wall street, andrew cuomo. My name is Zephyr Teachout and im running in the democratic primary for the governor of the state of new york. A political unknown with no money, she surprised just about everyone, including cuomo, by getting more than a third of the votes. A good showing, given that he spent 60. 62 for each of his votes while she could only spend 1. 57, but, nonetheless, still a defeat. Larry lessig decided to fight fire with fire. He raised several Million Dollars for a super pac called mayday and backed congressional candidates who favor reducing the influence of money in politics over those who just cant get enough of that Sweet Campaign cash. If he could prove that people care enough about corruption to have it make the difference when they vote, it might become politically toxic for politicians to oppose reform. But lessig lost, too. His six picks in truly competitive races went down to defeat. So larry lessig and Zephyr Teachout are back in class, for now. But ring the bell. Word has it they have only begun to fight. Welcome to both of you. Thanks for having us. Yeah. So you tried nobly to challenge the system from inside and it didnt work out for either of you. Was it naive . No, i actually think we got a lot done. I mean, id love to be governor right now. But we showed that people out there theres a Sleeping Giant out there of people who actually want a true, responsive democracy. But your money didnt wake that giant up. Well, you know, i mean, the critics have been gloating of course. They call me an egghead, they say its a complete failure. Look, theyre right about me being an egghead. Theres no doubt about that, but it wasnt a failure in the sense that the data we have shows that people care about this issue. Zephyrs campaign i think showed that, but in the races that we were in, we moved people to care about this issue and to vote on the basis of this issue. Now of course, not enough to overcome the tsunami of republican victories. Obviously, we were not able to overcome that. But thats not what we were pushing against. We were pushing against a view expressed in politico. The view was, this is a, quote, zero issue. It doesnt move voters at all and thats just not true. We think it moves voters more than issues that i think of as fundamental, like, Climate Change or unions. This is an issue that really rallies people because they are so tired of the corruption of the system. So what did you learn new about money that you hadnt known in your long and thorough examination of corruption in america . I knew that candidates have to spent half their time or more fundraising and i knew how corrupting that was. What i didnt realize is how, in some ways, humiliating it is. Yeah. That you feel like a vacuum cleaner salesman or something. Youre sitting in a room with your fundraiser, making dial after dial. Youre supposed to dial 30 times an hour. Youre supposed to hit a quarter of your calls and if people are sort of dispirited with the leadership we have now, i think its in part because were selecting leaders based on who is good at sitting in that room, being a vacuum cleaner salesman as opposed to traditional understandings of leadership, which is who has real ideas about how to change things, who has special capacities for inspiration or management. What did you learn about money you didnt know . Well, i think that one thing we saw is how fearful the powerful are yeah. To stand up against the system. And in one of our races we were running against the chairman of the Energy Committee and a republican. A republican and once he knew we were running, he started reaching out to our top donors and saying, whats going on . And our top donors were like, what are you doing . Calling you . They called you no. Well, they didnt actually directly call me, but we knew indirectly that they were anxious about what had happened. I remember reading this story, this is a Silicon Valley hightech tycoon. Did i hear you say that when he got word that you were taking on fred upton, who oversees the committee that has jurisdiction over his company, he got nervous . Well, theres a couple stories here. One is that people who actually contributed got nervous. They were anxious to quickly distance themself from our attack on fred upton, but just before all of that happened, we had a very large donor who was willing to give us a very large amount of money. And then heard that we were going to take on fred upton and said, we cant be on the wrong side of fred upton. So we have this system where people are afraid, even the richest are afraid to step up against this power because they know the way in which the power is going to and i think, i actually think we have a lot of fear in our politics now in ways that people sense. You know a lot of people didnt come out to vote in this Midterm Election and i think its hard to vote for somebody who feels fearful. I started seeing fear in Andrew Cuomos eyes. And i dont think it was just of me or of a challenger, but a sense that sometimes i feel like its politicians know what they arent really in control, that their donors are. And thats a scary feeling, that lack of power. And i think, you know, you see somebody like Elizabeth Warren or others who speak fearlessly, and theres genuine excitement around that. Too often i think democrats just focus on, like, the message box, what is the correct message to say, as opposed to really engaging in leadership itself and the fearlessness thats required there. And the other thing that i learned, you know, i went into this thinking were going to have to turn to a lot of big funders to raise the money that we needed to actually run this campaign. And then we opened up this crowdfunding site. And more than 50,000 people reached into their checkbook to make it possible for us to run this campaign. And this was a number that i just had no idea we would ever reach. And i think if you inspire people, the way i think zephyr plainly did in her campaign, with this ideal they rally. Lots of people rally to this idea. Do you think that elections run by and for donors, give voters a false sense of power . False sense of control over our democratic process . I think that in the last decade or so, i mean, really since the early 90s, theres been a real shift to candidates focusing and serving donors. And if you have to spend half your day talking to donors, youre 70 of your day talking to donors, and then turn around and give a speech engaging people on the issues that matter to them, their dental care, credit cards, you know, the real difficult finding a job, it feels false. Because its hard to have those two conversations at the same time and gradually, i think people have gotten more and more disillusioned because they feel like they arent being served. Theyre being sort of spoken to superficially, but fundamentally not listened to and i dont blame them. Not democratic then . Its not democratic. Yeah. And if elections are not democratic, can we get anything else right . Or is it all just cosmetic . Well, weve got to make it democratic first. Well, yeah. But you said its not. You both have said its not its a donordriven election. Yes. Yeah. I mean, we have the data to show this now. There was a princeton study by Martin Gilens and ben page. The largest empirical study of actual policy decisions by our government in the history of our government and what they did is they related our actual decisions to what the economic elite care about, what the organized Interest Groups care about, and what the average voter cares about. And when they look at the economic elite, you know, as the percentage of economic elite who support an idea goes up, the probability of it passing goes up. As the organized interests care about something more and more, the probability of it passing goes up. But as the average voter cares about something, it has no effect at all, statistically no effect at all on the probability of it passing. If we can go from zero percent of the average voters caring about something to 100 percent and it doesnt change the probability of it actually being enacted. And when you look at those numbers, that graph, this flat line, that flat line is a metaphor for our democracy. Our democracy is flat lined because when you can show clearly theres no relationship between what the average voter cares about, only if it happens to coincide with what the economic elite care about, youve shown that we dont have a democracy anymore. And we dont, but we have still these forms that allow for access to power. I mean, i look and im really inspired by whats happening in hong kong. Those Young Students would do so much to have the access to the levers of power that we have now. So i think of it more like where we were in 1901 or 1902, where we had formal access to power, but, you know, if you and i were talking then, wed be just as dispirited. You know, the big trusts really ran politics. I bet if there was a princeton study of 1901 of course. Youd find a flatline relationship between what people wanted and what was happening. And yet, what you saw is this, you know, decadeslong populist effort, finally finding fruit in the tillman act, the 1907 law, which banned direct corporate contributions to campaigns. And so i find hope actually from history, because weve had this disconnect between democracy and our formal rules before. Why is it we are failing . You as scholars and activists, we as journalists, in helping people understand that much of what happens to them is the consequence of how our elections are funded because many of the people that you care about voted against you a week ago. Well, i dont think the people are confused about whether democracy is working for them. I think they understand the problem. What weve got to do is to give them a sense that theres a solution. Weve got to prove that theres a way to fix this problem and thats what, you know, lots of different efforts are trying to do. Trying to give people a practical sense that theres something they can do. You know, when we marched in across new hampshire, and we would meet people on the street. There was such deep passion for finding a way to finally get back control of our government. There was no argument that we had to have with them to prove, look, heres a princeton study that shows they got the princeton study. They got it, huh . So its just giving them hope. Give them a sense that there is something to do and when we give people a map, a way to understand how its possible. You know, we could fix 80 of this problem tomorrow with one statute that would establish a different way to fund campaigns. We dont have to change the constitution to do that. What do you mean . You could do it without a constitutional amendment . We could pass yeah, yeah. Smalldollar, publicfunding of elections, even with this Supreme Court tomorrow. What does that mean . Well, it means, for example, John Sarbanes has something called the government by the people act. And that act says small contributions, like in new york city, small contributions get matched by the government, in sarbanes case, up to nine to one. Or republicans have begun to push the idea of vouchers. Give every voter a voucher, which they can use to fund campaigns. Now, the point is, both of those are perfectly constitutional. They could be passed tomorrow and they would radically change the focus candidates now give to the tiny fraction of the one percent who fund their campaigns because theyd be much more interested in talking to the many thousand who they need to fund their campaigns. And, i mean, larry and i really share this belief that we need to communicate the solution. Because, i mean, ill tell you, in new york city we have a system like this and it has transformed look, we dont have a perfect government. But it has it overwhelms you. Lets be honest. I mean, we do. Ive been a supporter of Public Financing in this city for a long time, but it doesnt work. Where big money comes rolling in, as larry said, like a tsunami. But what it has done is we have, you know, as a feminist, Public Financing is a real feminist issue. Far more women are running for office under Public Financing systems cause they dont, you dont need access to the old boys club, the old power club. Far more people of color are running for office. In fact, the city council is now a majority people of color in new york city. Because you dont need access to the same old boys club. Im not saying its fixed every problem, but it changes. If i want to recruit people to run, which i do, if you walk up to them and say, i want you to go out there and do this incredibly difficult harrowing exciting thing, and if you show that you have grassroots support, youll have enough money to get heard. Thats entirely different than, i want you to go out and half of your day, you have to spend begging at the feet of oligarchs and asking them for their permission to run for office. And realistically though, if you have a statute or law, piece of legislation that could solve some of the problem, not all of it, you have no hope of getting it through in a congress thats run by senator Mitch Mcconnell who more than any other man in Congress Today has enshrined the notion of monopoly as the game of politics. No, thats right, but if we can imagine in 2016 changing control of congress and critically recruiting a number of principled republicans to the idea that this corrupt system is corrupt, then i think its completely possible. And more and more, grassroots republicans are recognizing that theyre not going to get what they want either under this system, where they have to sell out to the big interest. Look at david brats victory over eric cantor, you know, the in the republican primary. In the republican primary. Hes now in congress, but beating the major leader of the house. Thats right and what his argument was, is that eric cantor had become a crony capitalist because he spent all of his time sucking up to the wall street bankers rather than advancing conservative causes. Now, the conservatives are increasingly getting this, just as the liberals have understood this. And if we can begin to get people to recognize that, look, we can differ on fundamental issues, but this really fundamental issue we dont differ about. We have to find a way to make a democracy responsive to the voters. But i want to also talk about the Democratic Party here though. Because theres a real split within the Democratic Party between the wall street wing and progressive, populist wing and im a democrat. And, you may not know this, but in 1924, i believe, a part of the Democratic Party platform was Public Financing of elections. I didnt, i was just in kindergarten then. But i actually think, you know, when we look at democratic losses, its in part because enough, some, democrats arent telling the truth about whats happening in the economy and people are going to respond. If they hear a candidate whos lying to them about everything being okay, instead of some real truth telling, and some real truth telling about whats wrong with politics and whats wrong with power, and if democrats can truly embrace Public Financing as a root issue, not as a sort of fussy, side reform, but as the root issue which enables democrats to actually care about, you know, whats happening in workingclass peoples lives, i think youre going to see a lot more excitement. Its the sense that democrats arent really telling you the truth or theyre really working for wall street and they say theyre not, that i think turns people off. And i think theres an extraordinary opportunity. Look, i know the odds are low. Vaclav havel has this wonderful im not going to get it exactly right champion of freedom in the czech republic. He says this thing about hope, which i find very powerful, that hope is not the same thing as optimism. Optimism is the belief something is likely to happen. Hope is the belief that it is possible and it is worth doing. I see the power structures in this country and if im going to be telling the truth to people, ill tell them honestly, were in tough shape. You know, the house is on fire in terms of our democracy. We are flatlining in terms of responsiveness, but we still have opportunities if we take the moment, take this moment of extraordinary frustration and engage people directly on the root issue honestly and provide a path through. And i think we have to go that way instead of these half measures that arent really engaging the root issue. So Shane Goldmacher at the National Journal wrote, money didnt buy the Midterm Elections. Quote, few observers would place the blame on a lack of money. Instead, most would point to a tough political environment, a Hostile Senate map and more than anything else an unpopular president , as the factors that dragged down democrats nationwide. To what extent do you think money mattered last week . It mattered enormously. It mattered in the selection of candidates. You know, long before we even heard their names, the candidates were selected if they were basically comfortable working for bigmoney donors. And that in itself gets you out of the realm of inspirational leadership. And then, of course, it mattered in the drowning of ads and the sense that people outside of any accountable power, super pacs outside of any accountable power, were really sort of running the system. So, i think made a huge difference and i think if you instead imagine the counterfactual, imagine this last election where in every competitive district, youd seen competitive primaries with people with publicly financed campaigns who stepped forward because they had something to say, not because they were next in line and not because they could raise money. We would have seen an extraordinary democratic, proud, fearless, populist fighting force and i think they would have done very well. So, youve got to think about the psychology that zephyr describes, of spending 50 to 70 of your time raising money. Those people were constantly aware about how what they say would affect the money in their race and they said things that they knew would not risk too much, relative to the money. So even if the money doesnt win, you know, when they said in 2012, karl rove lost, that was completely naive. Karl rove won, even if he didnt win any race because what he did was to define the lines that you couldnt cross. And what that has produced is exactly the kind of Democratic Party that zephyr is attacking, one that is more interested in making sure they can continue to get the wall street money by not being too antiwall street, instead of worrying about how we can get an economy again that is actually responding to what voters care about. Let me give you an example from my campaign. So, i did this fundraising and i repeatedly heard from my biggerend donors that they were not particularly excited about teachers unions. Im a big supporter of teachers unions. So i was very aware and it was a choice i made, but i was very aware that every time that i went on television or twitter or anywhere else talking about teachers unions, that would have an effect on my funding base. The easier thing to do is to just ignore the issue, to say, well, i secretly agree with it, but im not going to say anything cause thats going to affect my funding base. And then you end up with these milquetoast candidates who arent saying anything because they know where the public is and they know where their donors are and theres very little where theres an overlap. There was a wonderful leak in the course of this last campaign, a memo that michelle nunns campaign had developed. In georgia . In georgia. She was running for for senate. Senate. And a headline for the story was that the memo said she needed to spend 80 of her time raising money. But the really incredible part of the memo was where it went through every single issue that she was going to have to address and described which position she would have to take to raise the most money. Now, you know, shes a democrat. I think shes an exciting candidate and im sorry she lost. But you cant believe that when she was running in georgia, she was not thinking about exactly how that money would matter in just the way that zephyr is describing. But it seems to me as a journalist whos covered this for a long time, that were at some kind of Tipping Point where the present system becomes institutionalized because the people who run the system get the big donations and they have no incentive to make the changes that you would like to see. Uhhuh, thats right. Were at that moment. Thats why theres so much urgency right now. But the other part about being at this moment is that its produced a government that cannot function, right . Francis fukuyama talks about the vetocracy we now have, where the what . Vetocracy. Vetoocracy. Hes a scholar at stanford, right . And the point is, because in large part of this enormous influence of money, its trivially simple for a small fraction of that money to block any change, whether its change on the right or change on the left. So weve built this system that is perfectly in power, but it now cant govern. It wont govern when its a republican president , it wont govern when its a democratic president and thats building the incredible sense that we need to do something to change it. And its vetoing on so many different levels. I mean, what i see is the way in which this concentration of political power is happening at the same time as theres a concentration of economic power. So this extraordinary entrepreneurial tradition we have in this country is actually getting quashed. We have pretty steep decline of the number of entrepreneurs in the last 25 years, but we have that tradition still. And if we can tap into that and instead of people running away from politics, engaging directly in electoral politics, engaging directly in the kind of activism we need were not so far away from the best parts of our tradition that we just should give the game up. Well continue this conversation online. Larry lessig, Zephyr Teachout, thank you for being with me. Thank you. Thank you. At our website billmoyers. Com, we continue our conversation with Lawrence Lessig and Zephyr Teachout, and we remember army veteran tomas young, who died this week at the age of 34. Tomas was severely wounded in iraq 10 years ago, and came back paralyzed. In 2008 we aired excerpts from body of war, a documentary about tomas young and we spoke with his producers phil donohue and ellen spiro. Thats all at billmoyers. Com. Ill see you there, and ill see you here, next time. Announcer dont wait a week to get more moyers. Visit billmoyers. Com for more. Announcer funding is provided by anne gumowitz, encouraging the renewal of democracy. Carnegie corporation of new york, supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement, and the advancement of International Peace and security at carnegie. Org. The ford foundation, working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. The herb alpert foundation, supporting organizations Whose Mission is to promote compassion and creativity in our society. The john d. And catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Park foundation, dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The kohlberg foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Garrison keillor w. S. Merwin was born in new york city, the son of a minister. After college, he lived in europe for a number of years, translated spanish and french poetry, learned how to support himself as a freelance writing, speaking, giving readings. He moved to hawaii where he lives in a dense forest including rare species of palm trees that hes planted. Poetry, he says, always begins and ends with listening. Yesterday. My friend says, i was not a good son, you understand. I say, yes, i understand. He says, i did not go to see my parents very often, you know. And i say, yes, i know. Even when i was living in the same city, he says, maybe i would go there once a month or maybe even less. I say, oh, yes. He says, the last time i went to see my father. I say, the last time i saw my father. He says, the last time i saw my father he was asking me about my life, how i was making out, and he went into the next room to get something to give me. Oh, i say feeling again the cold of my fathers hand the last time. He says, and my father turned in the doorway and saw me. Look at my wristwatch. And he said, you know, i would like you to stay and talk with me. oh, yes, i say. . But if you are busy, he said, i dont want you to feel that you have to just because im here. i say nothing. He says, my father said, maybe you have important work you are doing or maybe you should be seeing somebody. I dont want to keep you. i look out the window. My friend is older than i am. He says, and i told my father it was so, and i got up and left him then, you know, though there was nowhere i had to go and nothing i had to do. applause announcer this program is made possible in part by. Historic marion, virginia, home of song of the mountains, a main Street Community in the heart of the virginia highlands. The Ellis Family Foundation encouraging economic revitalization through the restoration of Historic Buildings in downtown marion, virginia, including the general Francis Marion hotel. Teds dedicated to providing strategic Talent Management solutions. The bank of marion your community, your vision, your bank. Morehead state universitys Kentucky Center for traditional music is a proud supporter of song of the mountains. Emory and Henry College transforming lives since 1836. Bryant label, a proud supporter of our regions musical heritage. And wbrf 98. 1 fm