More personalized. We really believe that as we see this revolution play out we will be seeing very different cities that really improve the quality of life quite dramically. And thats the place that we want to play. Rose we conclude with Arianna Huffington, her new book called the sleep revolution, transforming your life one night at a timement. Every day literally we have new Scientific Evidence about the connection between sleep and every aspect of our health. From obesity and diabetes to hypertension, heart disease, cancer, every aspect of our Emotional Intelligence and mood, you know, how we feel about our lives. How depresessed orange shus or fearful we are. And then our actual cognitive functions. Bob casta, Dan Doctoroff and Arianna Huffington when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. From captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with politics. Donald trump continues to make headlines with recent controversies over his standses on abortion, Foreign Policy and his campaign manager. The gop frontrunner faces new challenges in tomorrows wisconsin primary where polls show him trailing ted cruz barely. Joining me is robert costa reporter for the Washington Post and political analyst for nbc news. He recently stat down with trump for an exclusive interview published this weekend. He sat down with trump, trumps son and others. Also joining him from the Washington Post was bob woodward. Im pleased to have bob casta back at this table. Welcome. Thank you. Rose how did this come about . Well, woodward and i wanted to figure out how trump was going to pay for this wall. We were on the set of morning joe and woodward being wod ward said we would like to sit down with you at length and talk this through. And so we ended up having a 96 minute conversation that at his still under Construction Hotel am we tried to ask him about the president. Rose in washington. In washington, that is his prize property, a few blocks from the white house. We wanted to ask him about the presidency, how would he be as president to get a little bit away from the day to day campaign. Rose what was the setting, his son was with him. When trump is in the room he is in command with his employees and advisors so were supposed to have lunch and there were all these sandwiches around but no one touches a sandwich. No one really even has a descring from the trump water nstruction table surrounded by secret service at a construction site. Rose is he doing more interviews now. He is doing more long form interviews. I think based on our conversation and conversations with his aide, he recognizes that he kind of needs to pivot now to show some depth on policy, some depth on character as he almost tries tries to reintroduce himself to the country. Rose lots of people are writing about him and he acknowledged he had a bad week. How did that affect him . I think he ask dre confident publicly in. His campaign is a tight knit group. They have been privately rattled. On monday i reported about a memo circulated around them and they are trying to rally each other as the media has more scrutiny, as the republican establishment thinks about an open convention. But trump as the leader of his own campaign and own strategist is starting slowly to bring more people in, some veterans like paul manaforked who helped ger alz ford and Ronald Reagan in 1976. He recognizes that if he going to really be the nominee he needs an expanded team. Rose Paul Manfords job is to run the convention. Count delegates. That is something trump has been behind on. If there is one vuller in able beyond his statementses on abortion and Foreign Policy, it is on organization. Is he not winning the delegates at the state that stake place after the contests. Rose who has the most influence. His daughter, he vanga and his son eric an don, jr. Are close to him. But he seas evanka as someone who has pois, as an outsider too, to the political process. Will want dowsky has become a real lewandowski is a real loyist. Another person, steve win, the casino magnate, a close friend of trump and helps connect trump with people in washington. I called up william j bennett, reagans former education secretary and said he had a phone call with trump. I said who put you in touch with trump. He said steve win. I found this with other people, he had friends on wall street trying to connect him. Rose that what is interesting is steve win and donald trump were very exet nif Atlantic City and a little in las vegas. When i have spoke into trump with his priep with winn, carl politics about how theys and a respond to conflict an his combative nature. If they can get over that, he seems to often become friends with that. He said to woodward, look, after this fight is over, watch ill become friendly with cruz, perhaps, maybe not be able to get jeb bush in but he thinks the force of his personality can be a uniter. Rose roger stone has what influence. Roger stone had an altercation with trump in the summer. This is a great story about how trump operates. Stone was getting uneasy with the campaign and planning to possibly resign and step down. Rose uneasy because . He wasnt comfortable with will want do you scoas rising role within the lieu want dowskys rising he saw his influence some what waning. He didnt like that trump was not listening, stone didnt like he wasnt listening on policy. Stone was writing memos that were getting discarded so stone was looking to lead am but when trump heard about stone looking to leave, trump called off the Washington Post and said im firing stone. Thats how donald trump works. And so. Rose he wanted to be first and said im firing, hes not leaving him, im firing him. Even though it wasnt true because stone was think being leaving. Exactly. Rose what does that say to you. It says that is how trump operates in public life as well as his private life. He is a brawler. And he wants to come out on top. Everything about him is winning. But the thing is, he is still friendly with roger stone. Talks to stone regularly on the phone. Rose still gets advice within wants advice from him. He has a tight circle. Stone was a big part of it for 30, 40 years. As much as they had a fight in the summer, they are still chatty. Rose steve winn, roger stone, people not part of the campaign per sigh have his ear. Thats right. Rose who else. The most influential person right now in trumps circle based on my reportinger senator Jeff Sessions of alabama, someone not part of this new york world for trump but has been there to be a connector for trump on the conservative side. Rose loves his immigration policy. And sessions has been savvy putting his own people within the Trump Campaign. Rose here is what is interesting in your piece came out. He talked about the lone ranger. He was the lone ranger, he saw himself as that. What is that about. I prommed it. Mr. Trump, you seem like the lone ranger, i know because covering trump he grew up in the 40st and 50st and he loves old trk v, old sports figures so i thought that was something he would pick up. He immediately did he said i understand life. I understand life, i am the lone ranger. Rose i understand how life works. Im the lone ranger. He likes to be the loner. This is something that may. Rose has he been a loner all his life. He has been social all his life but hes not, if you talk to people on wall street and the business community, they know trump, they have been at parties with trump but is he not part of the club. In politically and business he is a celebrity and famous but he considers himself in interview who is outside of the mainstream. Rose and therefore he can easily run against the establishment. Thats right. Rose the idea also is that he is thinking about, as you said, you went to talk to you about defining himself as more president ial. He talked to maureen dawd about that who wrote a colume in the new york stiemsz. She ended that colume by saying start what is he going to do. He wont starred. Ed with ward kept pushing him when, when does this begin. And dawd was so savey with her colume. She got trump to say i know i need to change this and that. But he is so reluctant to advice from advisors and friends, even his own family. Rose what he also says too which is interesting to me, he says i got to win first. St seems to me he is saying look, my game has always been about winning. After i win, after the game is over, then i can become a different person. You look at his friendship with his first wife. His friendship with his past business foas. He thinks question destroy people publicly, call them little marco, or low energy jeb, or destroy someone in a business deal and win them back. That is just a conviction at his core. Rose he said my Natural Inclination is to win. And after i win i will be so president ial you wont even recognize me. You will be fall asleep, you will be so bored. A lot of people in washington, people who arent part of the Trump Campaign worry though that trump isnt doing it fast enough. Is he not getting the delegates. Is he not going to be the nominee and eventually you have to turn the corner. The fight has to end. Rose you are an analyst at nbc on meet meet and other places. Do you sense that, that show he is incapable of turning and therefore it may be too late to opinion against him might have hardened. It depends on what happens on tuesday in wisconsin. If cruz can jump out of the wisconsin primary with a victory. Rose he now is ahead four or five points. And it has been closing in this poll or that poll j if cruz can get momentum that will help him with the establishment in washington. The thing about the view in the senate and the house of trump and the Political Community is they now see trump as a political saf ant, someone who is true talent, maybe once in a generation talent in terms of charisma, responding to the base. But they say hes so limited in being able to actually assume the role of party leader. Rose he seems to often want to do things that still satisfy the base, almost as if he doesnt want to disappointment base. Thats right. Rose rather than reaching out. They clearly has a problem with women. Yes . He, in every poll, he has a problem with women. Rose why doesnt he speak to that . He doesnt speak to it because he thinks at the end of the day he can win women voters. He is convinced, he told us he can win africanamerican voters and young voters. What he called it is quote the aura of his personality. And every poll though shows he would be historically bad nominee in terms of polling. Since the Washington Post began polling in 1984 we have never seen a major party figure closing in on a nomination with these kind of unfavourable numbers. Rose but politics simply a place that he decided was a. Another stage. Rose another stage. Yeah, in some ways it is. Rose it is not a person who really grew up or who decided that i can fix the country. Every time i see trump he says i i dont know why im doing this. He says i dont know why i am doing this. Rose why does he say that. Because it comes to your point. He doesnt need the presidency. Hes not a typical. Rose his wife said life is so good. Why do you want to do this . Exactly. Rose so explain to me what you thin is going on with him in terms of. Well, we try to draw it out. And he just talked about this internal monologue hes had with himself. And ive spoken to him previous to this interview, it is about the stage in his life. He has accomplished a lot in business, 69, 07 years old. He thinks public life finally is something he wants to do he flirted with it in 87y. He thought about it in 99, to 11. This finally, he said if people are he told his wive this and his wife told him, if you want people to take you seriously, you have to get in the ring. Rose in other words, you cant flirt with it, you have to decide, its all in. And he was becoming what of a mock figure of american politics, someone who was criticizing the president s love of country, kre dennings, always moving towards a president ial bid but not doing it, he recognized that more than anyone. Rose so back to i think everybody wants to know what drives him. I talked to megyn kelley over the weekend, having suffered a lot of tweets that made fun of her, and criticized her, and in fact, you know, went to the heart of some sense of her competent tense. You know, she said i just want what do you want to know . She said why. What question would you ask him, why . You know, he launched a series of attacks against her as a reporter. He has had shall. Rose has he attacked any other reporter. He has attacked numerous reporters. He are relentless with many reporters and it comes out of this new york. Rose he thinks the media is what. He thinks theyre unfair to him, he thinks their biased not against his politics but bias toward convention. He believes it is a conventional mindset in the press and that precludes him as an outsider from being covered in the way he wants. Rose how does he feel about the fact that they think hes simply not prepared, that he doesnt have the temperment, he doesnt have the understanding of the issues, he doesnt, you know, as you pointed out, his suggestion of how hes going to make up, you know, 9 trillion, i think 9 trillion deficit. Right. Rose was. 19 trillion debt. He said he will erase that in two president ial terms. Rose which means cutting what, half the budget. Its impossible. Talk to any economist. Rose you say it is impossible, what does he say. He thinks what when i ask the question of why, its about his campaign. When you talk to trump, like at the bottom, at the foundation of what he is doing is a belief on trade. Going back to his experience as a young businessman in the 1970s. Rose you can see it, hes made that argument against china earlier. He has. Rose this is not a new argument. And hes doing it against jp an as well. Is he con tenant constantly refrained for decades talking about trade. I feel like its just built over time. And when you ask about why he is doing what he is doing and how he thinks he can solve the national debt, what he says is im going to get growth and Economic Growth through trade. Most economists say this is an unrealistic proposal. But at his gut, he thinks trade and having better deals is going to solve the issue. Rose does he have this unerring confidence in his ability or is it simply a mindset that he thinks plays well. It is an unerring confidence. And theres a lot of. Rose because everything, im the greatest. I will be the greatest tax cutter, i will be the greatest everything. An very few peem question him within his orbit on that. Rose what does that mean, in his orbit. Not just the campaign. Im talking about his friends. He has such confidence about himself and his ability to change situations and to fix things. He doesnt like to hear criticism. Rose hes also a product of the media, isnt he . He watches television all the time. Hes never in a room that there is not a television on or he doesnt have access to twitter. When im in his office for an interview in frump tower. I have been on his boeing 757, constantly tfertionz. Listening to television. Rose what are they saying. He reads constantly too. All, every article about his campaign. He gets it printed out. Doesnt use, mail or a computer and he is circling and sharpie marker what he hates or likes and shoferring the papers to his advisors saying i dont like this, this is great. And he consumes media constantly. Rose which marvel to me is how his, the people who are supporting him, and who support him not withstanding knowing his flaws. How, and they have no apparent connection other than they believe that he believes in them. I think this is the most undercoverred point of the trump cam campaign. Rose i do too tell me. Its not always about trump. The Trump Supporters i have been covering them for 18 months. Rose who are they. They are people who believe institutions have failed them acrosstheboard. And not just the obama administration. Republicans in congress, corporate america, wall street, they feel they have stagnant wages. It is like a portrait of Charles Murray book coming apart. The part of White Working Class america that feels like theyre disengaged from their own country. And to trump represents not someone who is just a celeb result and who will be their champion. Is he just different. They want something different. Rose because Everything Else that has been tried in their definition hasnt worked. And when scwu them why are you supporting trump over cruz, they say cruz is going to change the system and try to distroy the system. They say with trump hes going to go around the whole system. Thats what they want. Wholesale change. Rose they believe he will negotiate with the chien ease for a better deal. They think hes going to put up an impenetrable border wall with mexico. Rose its an interesting idea. Walls are going up in europe, of one kind or another. Walls are going up in terms of political campaigning here. About what trump wants to do. I mean its kind of for me a worrisome idea that were walling ourselve in. You see in europe, with the rise of these attacks, there is also the rise of the hard right in response. Rose and people say trump is part of that too. Its a connected in term its of. I think there is a driving issue wz what is connective. It is connective in the reaction to what is happening in Global Affairs and the global economy. I dont think it is as connected on the idea logical front because trump say messy project in terms of his views and whether hes really hard right. Hes hard line on his immigration policies and trade. Rose where is he not hard right . I think on the social issues which makes. Rose which social issues. I think he makes sure he reiterates on abortion. Hes for the exceptions. The life of the mother and someone who doesnt champion those issues on the campaign trail. Rose but he didnt call abortion murder, did he . No. Trump is someone who is trying to navigate a Republican Party that is since reagan been dominated by social conservatives but is he not really a social conservative at his core. Rose does he see himself like reagan like. He sees himself as a change agent. A grand leader. Whether he will be win the nomination or presidency who knows. He sees himself as someone of recognize ans stature. One of the first things he did when he was in iowa was hand out pictures of him and reagan trying to convince people that maybe they are one and the same. Rose but theyre not. Theyre not. I mean Ronald Reagan was governor of california. Had been through the. Rose for eight years. Eight years, had been through the trenches. Was with the gold water in 64. Had fawt in 76y. Comings back in 80. Rose he made these really powerful speeches. Trump says the same thing over and over again, talks about the chinese are taking our clock, you know, that they are, in fact, the chinese on one hand are wing. Were not wing. And hes a winner. That is the central speech that he makes. Central. And its central speech surrounded by exterch rainious remarks and its something that he changed it a little bit with his speech to apec the other week in trying to have a more prepared text. Rose he read every word, tel prompter. Tel prompter, rare instance of trump using a tel prompter but he knew apac and supporters of israel had become very sceptical of him. Rose how do you think will do in wisconsin. Wisconsin will be more narrow than some of the polls are showing because he has a lot of support in the northwest, south west part of the state. Rose but if he loses that means he will probably go to the convention having not locked it up. If he loses wisconsin, charlie, it will be the longest two weeks of his campaign between now and the new york. Because new york he is ahead in the polls and expected to do well but there is a narrative now that is being chatter around miss campaign. He is not getting the delegates. He may not win wisconsin. Hes being undisciplined. Rose an if he doesnt have enough delegates to win before the Convention Opens in cleveland, is it your guess that he will not be the nominee . When it comes to conventional wisdom. Rose without enough delegates to win him over, the conventional wisdom is he will not get the nomination. And yes, that is the conventional wisdom. Rose do you agree with that . I agree with it on my reporting to an extent, for this reason. Woodward and i kept asking, why havent you built the relationships that are going to sustain you in cleveland, that are going to enable you to go to a second ballot. I kept saying im in the fight. Im in the fight. When you get to that convention floor, when you go to a second and third ballot and alienated so many people, they could turn to a paul ryan or mitt romney because the relationships arent there. They towrn toy paul ryan and he is a nominee, would he support paul ryan . Probably not. What would he do . He has threatened to do a third party bid. And. Rose very late in the game to do that. Very late in the game to do that. I think if trump gets close enough to the threshhold of 1237 his Campaign Says they will have an argument to make if they are 30 delegates away, 50 delegates. It is in effect their nomination. Rose do you accept the idea that they will destroy the republican partiment because they will be threatened at the house level and senate level. He could create sweeping challenges in the house. I think the senates wellknown if trump is the nominee, how say rob portman, a mark, a palt toomy in pennsylvania. Rose going to win. Going to win. Trump, you look at his numbers in places like the phillie suburbs where a place like toomy has to win. Rose he entertained the idea that he just mielt destroy the Republican Party . Does he ever sit down and say are they right . I mean am i perhaps not good for this . No, thats not his way. Rose his way is to be confident in his way. Exactly right. Rose he did say that he would select someone from washington or washington insider. That was a change. A few months ago he was telling he would maybe do ben carson or some other outsider. He recognizes he needs to bring someone in, he has something to learn. Rose at a general election candidate. Indeed. Rose great to have you here. Great to be here. Rose bob casta with the Washington Post and an analyst with the nbc news. Back in a moment. Dan doctoroff sheer, former c. E. O. And president of bloomberg lp also served as deputy mayor for Economic Development and rebuilding under new york city mayor Mike Bloomberg. Last year he could founded Sidewalk Labs with google, a company that evil dos technologies which tackle challenges common to big cities. Sidewalk labs launched its first project earlier this year called link nyc. Old pay phones were replaced with key osqs providing free wifi, phone calls and charging stations am im pleased to have Dan Doctoroff back at this table. Welcome. Thank you very much. Rose great to you have here. Great to be here. Rose let me talk broadly for me about the future of cities. I. I am a complete optimist. If you look back over the last couple hundred years, weve had three big technological revolutions that have fundamentally transformed life in cities. The first was the steam engine which brought people to cities more easily, industrialized them, made modern Water Systems possible. The secretary in the late 1800st was the introduction of the electric grid which made them vertical, made them easier to get around in, lit them up. The third was the automobile which forced us to really rethink land and cities because we had to separate roadways. We had to accommodate parking. And it also made cities easier to get out of. We believe that we are at the dawn, really just at the dawn of the fourth technological revolution in cities. And that is the Digital Network age. And its really exciting cuz its going to affect pretty much everything that takes place. Rose and how will it play itself out. This lots of different ways. Were starting to see the beginnings of it with things like uber, even airbnb. If you look at the component. Rose the sharing economy. Its not just the sharing economy, if that is a component of it. But if you think about it, what are the elements. Ubiquitous connectivity. We are getting to the day where all of us are going to have smartphones, theyre all connected, going to be connected by fiber. We have sensors, location services, cameras that are capable of understanding our environment in ways we never have before. We now have social net works that establish relationships of trust with people we dont know. Advanced imeuting power, artificial intelligence, machine learning. The ability to display data in new ways. And then design and fab ri kaition technologies with robotics and other things are now making it possible to really see almost everything in the city differently. So uber as an example wouldnt have been possible five years ago. But we didnt have the advanced location services. We didnt have the computing power. We didnt have sort of these trust netted works that enable you to get into the car with the driver. Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Cities havent really yet adopted them. But its just starting. Rose did this begin with you as deputy mayor in terms of understanding a, cities. B, cuz you were an investment banker. And were in charge of an effort to bring the olympics to new york. And also, you know, responsibility, with Mike Bloomberg, from new york and Economic Development as well. Right. Was that the beginning of you and taking a different and higher level of interest . And concern and preeshes of the pont . Well, certainly my interest in cities really started with our effort to bring the olympics to new york. That became a plan for the physical future of new york which lead me to Mike Bloomberg so i spent six years as deputy mayor. And then he asked me to come run what in fact is the Biggest Technology company in new york city and bloomberg lp. Its really the combination of those experiences as kind of an urbanist helping to run a city. And somebody who is running a Technology Company and then beginning to see the po text for technology to change our cities. So you ask like what is an example. These things will not unfold right away. They will unfold over decades. In the electric grid was first introduced in 1882 and it took decades for it to be fully felt in cities and then around the country and around the world. But lets take Autonomous Vehicles as an example. They are coming. There is absolutely no doubt. So now lets imagine a place where you have in a city only shared Autonomous Vehicles. What happens . Well, first thing is, were going to have much better con guess shun on the roads. But it goes way beyond that. You know, the average american uses his or her car only 3 of the time. The average americans second biggest living expense is its automobile, about 89,000 a car including depreesh yaition a year. Now what happens if the american doesnt own a car any more but they share them . Okay. To the city, you can basically get rid of the 30 of the land that is dedicated to parking and separating roadways, which enables you to really rethink the use of land in cities, reclaim all of that space for open space. Or perhaps increase density. Rose how did you find google. So they actually approaches me. Larry page has been very interested in cities. He really believes that its the next frontier and we started talking and over time it more of the into moreoff morephed into what has been a fabulous partnership. I love being a filt yaited with google. Rose is the partnership primarily Sidewalk Labs. Yes. Sidewalk labs is the company that we creating to. It is an alphabet company. Rose google is one of the companies under alphabet of which Sidewalk Labs is another. Right. Rose right. So what is Sidewalk Labs. So Sidewalk Labs is a Company Whose mission is to use technology to solve big urban problems. Thats what we are in business to do. Rose like what kind of problems. Let me give you an example of something we, one of our Portfolio Companies called intersection is doing here in new york city. You eluded to it at the opening. One of the biggest problems we face in any city, in fact, throughout the country and around the world. Is digital inequality. In new york city alone, new york city has 8. R5 million people. There are three approximately people without do not have access to broadcast band. Rose meaning they cant connect with the internet in their homes. They cant have fast internet in their homes. So that is a huge problem because with this digital divide, were leaving more and more people behind. Fumly unfair. So weve actually worked with the de blasio administration, actually started in the bloomberg administration. To work out a deal in which we are going to replace every single one of these 7500 pay phones. And we are replacing them with these incredible structures, if are you on third avenue on 8th avenue new york, you are beginning to see them pop up everywhere. That are iconic, theyre sleek. And what they offer is free superfast i would fie. Like if you have wifi in your house, theyre about 50 times faster than what you would get in your house. Absolutely free. Theyre also on each of these things, free voice calling, there will be free video calling, free phone fast phone charging, public information, theres a button for access to 311 and 911. All right there. And that is for us a product that we think helps to solve a big urban problem. Rose digital inequality. Digital inequality. Rose and you make your investment back. Almost all of them have Digital Displays on them. So we can sell advertising against them. Rose right. And so now the city actually gets 50 of the revenue. We believe the city over the life of this contract will generation generate up to a billion dollars which can be redeployed for other city priorities. Rose who is your competition . You know, theres a lot of companies that focus on so called smart cities, a term have i always hated because i actually think cities are pretty smart and pretty great in general. Rose one of them is ibm. Ibm, cisco, there is a bunch of them. Were taking a pretty different approach to it. We like to kind of take that space thats in the middle between the big sort of heavy sort of Enterprise Organizations like them and the civic hackers and operate in that space in between. You know, what i have found is that one of the reasons why technology has not been integrated more quickly into cities is that there is a massive gulf that exists between lets call them the urbanist, people who who plan cities, who run cities, you know some of them. And the technologists. They dont understand each other. They literally are speaking two separate languages. What we are doing is putting together a team of both urban urbanists and technologists, we step back and say really, what is the future of cities. How is this Technology Going to really fundamentally affect cities. And when you actually play it out, you see a lot of Different Things that are going to, i think, create cities that are much greater or more efficient, more resilient, more adaptable. More personalized. We really believe that as we see this revolution play out, we will be seeing very different cities. That really improve the quality of life quite dramically. And thats the place that we want to play. Rose is this happening in other cities around the world . Its starting to. Its slow. Cities are complicated. Cities have bureaucracies. Rose cities have budgets. Cities have budgets. Cities have politicians. Cities have vested interests. So nothing is easy. But i think weve demonstrated here in new york that we can get lots of things done. And what you are starting to see is many cities around the world really beginning to focus on this. Here in the United States, chicago, is really i think a leader. New york, los angeles, san francisco, boston, a number of others. In fact, one of the other things that were really excited about is we have parter inned with the United States department of transportation. They have issued a smart city challenge to basically create a next generation Transportation System and they are going to award 50 million to one medium sized u. S. City and give that money to them to actually kind of build that next generation Transportation System. Weve partnered with the United States dot to actually build a core element of that which we call flow, which is a data and analytic platform that will collect a lot of the ground information about what is really going on. Rose that will go and be used to whatever city is chosen. And hopefully many other cities around the country around the world. Think about a city in which you have integrated data and true connectivity. And then begin to think about the impact on health care. On education, on public safety. I think were going to see so much change because of our ability to understand what is around us, take that data and then apply it in ways that give us so much greater insight that enable us to prevent, enable us to anticipate, enable us to plan, enable us to really bring things together that we cant see today. Rose thank you for coming. Its great to be here. Dowd Dan Doctoroff, dealing with the future. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Arianna huffington is here. She is a cofounder, president and editor in chief of the Huffington Post media group. Shes also recently taken on a brand new role. She is a sleep evangelist. Her new book is you will kad the sleep revolution. It explores the causes and consequences about current sleep deprivation crisis, her words. Im pleased to have Arianna Huffington back at this table. Welcome. Thank you, charlie. Rose count me among your desiep els, monday the convertedded, among those who think you are on to something big. You are actually a not a desiep el because youve made napping a legitimate. Because long before i became a sleep evangelist, you were talking about how if you had to choose between 20 minutes additional prep for an interview or 20 minutes of a nap, you would choose the nap. Take the nap. Because that would make it easier for you to retrieve all the information you had to be fully present during the interview. And all of this was much more important qualities than getting one more fact from the. Rose at every level of what you argue, whether its sex, whether it is work performance, whether it is the way you feel or whether it is your health, i believe that sleep is crucial. You know, i think seven hours is a great place to go. I generally get about six. You know. And then make it up with a couple, either two or three short naps. So i end up with seven. But it makes me feel better at every moment of the day. It makes me want to be more envelope etic. It makes me feel that, you know, im on the top of pie game. Exactly it is a huge performance enhancer. Rose yeah. And thats what is ironic. How come that we came to see it as the opposite. And in the history chapter. I want back to trace the moment when we began to scorn and devalue sleep. And it was actually during the First Industrial revolution. When we began to think that human beings could be treated like machines. And you could actually minimize down time. And then of course you had Thomas Edison who openly scorned sleep and called it an absurdity and predicted that there would be a time when sleep would be eliminated. Rose he would sleep two hours, work two hours, sleep two hours and work two hours, Something Like that. He actually really believed that. And there was a very revered cultural icon. Who therefore also began to change the way we perceived sleep and then came the third industrial revolution, the digital revolution, when we became addicted to our smartphones an people have a really hard time guess connected from their devices and turning off the lights, and actually 60 of people around the world have slept with their phones in their hand. Rose because they fell asleep, because they were sleep deprived. Exactly. Rose Margaret Thacher is part of the game too. Because she famously said i only need four hours, im a superhuman. But thren she also napped every day religious three from 2 30 and 3 sc 340 and nobody could disturb hez bns so it winston churchill, loin done johnson. But going back to sex, which is how you began, the research now is amazing about erectile disfunction and sleep deprivation. Low sperm count and sleep deprivation and even studies that show that if you are fully recharged and had a full night sleep you are 14 more likely to have sex. Rose what is the science teach snus. So that is really what is for me the most amazing thing about my research. That this is the golden age of sleep science. And it is very recent. You know, the scientific sleep center was founded at stanford in 1970. And now there are over 2500. Rose 44 years ago reasons 44 years ago. And basically every day we have new Scientific Evidence about the connection between sleep an every aspect of our health. From obesities and diabetes to hypertension, heart disease, cancer, every aspect of our Emotional Intelligence add mood, how we teal about our lives. How depressed orange shus or fearful we are. And then our actual cognitive functions, in fact the Tipping Point came for me last week, too late to include it in the book am but mckensie had a big piece in the harvard big review by the Global Learning officer and by someone else who was described as a mckensie sleep specialist which would you thought is something out of that mack kensie has a sleep specialist. And the headline was the proven link between sleep and leadership. And they actually took us through the science of what happens to the prefrontal cortex where the executive functions are housed when you are sleep deprived. Everything is degraded. Every aspect of leadership, decision making, team building, being tiebl see short cuts to solve problems. Everything is degraded. So this whole collective delusion that will sleep when were dead. Ill catch up later. C. E. O. St often congratulation con grait late their employees for working 24 7. This is equivalent for congratulating someone to work drunk. Rose or smoking every day. Its interesting that we have shoi developed in part this idea that those people who are not getting much sleep are show superhuman and they are overachievers and they are the best you can be. Because they pound more time into their function. Right. But this is part of the delusion. That looks at work in terms of time you put in, as opposed to energy you put in, and the quality of your mental clarity, your creativity you put in. Rose when did you find, start this journey to becoming a sleep evangelist . I started the journey the hardway, when i collapsed from sleep deprivation and broke plie cheek bone on the way down. Rose you fell asleep or what. No, no, i was simply exhausted and i literally stood up to get a sweater, way feeling kolgd and i fainted. I mean it happened to hillary clinton. Right. When she collapsed and hers was worse. She hit her head and got a brain clot it happened to my executives t happened to the c. E. O. Rose from sleep deprivation. It is the key. Because when are you sleep deprived all the new science shows that the stress shore moan courtisol increases in your body and therefore, you know, stress as we know is at the heart of practically every disease. And also all the factors that have to do with our immune system go down. And all the factors that have to do with. Rose youre less able to be resistant. To whatever is arranged. And all the factors that have to do with inflammations go up. All the hormones that have to do with inflammation go up. Rose do you believe that the revolution is preceding a base, that people have finally, finally gotten it, because of you and others. Well, i believe that we are at this amazing turning point where everything is coexisting. Like you have executives who are still living in a neanderthal way of believing that, you know, that more hours you spend on the job the better you are going to be. But you also have the entire hotel industry, for example, now competing with each other. Which hotel chain is going to be the chain that offers the best sleep. Which is really the most important thing you need. Rose and are you seeing companies, the most forward looking companies thinking about providing sleep rooms. Absolutely. I mean obviously we offer that too, nap rooms, now were opening a third. But more anmore competentes, whether its niek or zappos or ben jerries are opening nap rooms. And its also a sunday ground rules like recognizing that once you have finished work, you should not be expected to be an email fsm there is something urgent we will call you or text you. That is part of that. Rose they also, i know people that every night of their life take sleeping pills. Yes. Rose not good. The evidence again is overwhelming. That sleeping pills are connected with a greater incident of all these diseases including alzheimer. So its one thing to take a sleeping pillow kaitionally if are you jet lagged, if you had ray traumatic experience but sleeping pills were never intended to be a nightly occurrence. And you know, charlie f there was one simple thing that people could do tonight to change their sleep, it would be createk a transition to sleep. Rose how do you do that . First of all whack we do now is normally we are on our smartphones until the last moment and then we turn off the light. So there is no demarcation line between our day life. You mean we need to slight. We need to slide floo sleep which means for me 30 minutes before im going to turn off the slights even if you start with five minutes. Rose what do do you in that 30 minutes. First of all, i turn off all my devices and gentdly, escort them out of my bedroom. I promise you, they are there in the morning. And then i have a very hot bath with epsom salts which is like a ritual of washing the day away. If you prefer a shower, there is Something Wonderful about the water. Which is almost like saying as a bible puts it, you know, the evil of today is enough. It is like this is it. There is nothing more i can do about my incompletions, my to do list. Now is the time. Rose it is the end of the day. Time to get recharged. Too time to get recharged. Then i used to sleep literally in my gym clothes. Not the one i wore that day but the same stuff, now i have beautiful lingerie, have a special tshirt or whatever, sleep naked. Some kind of clothes. Something that is different. That say this is sleep. This is sleep. Because otherwise, ive talked to hundreds of scientists now and they all tell you, otherwise your brain gets this con flingting messages. Are we going to the gym or are we going to bed. Then i only read real books. Meaning nonviks. No, first of all, physical books. Oh, real books. Rose you dont read on. My i pad. The blue light is ternl for activating your brain. Rose right. And i read books that have nothing to do with work. I dont read about politics. I dont read about economies. Or the media. Rose what do you read. I read philosophy. I read poetry. I read novels. So i read things that take me out of my daily life. How has your life changed. You are obviously having more sex. Definitely, 14 more, to be exact. Rose your performance in every aspect of your life is better. Absolutely. Rose you feel better. I feel better. Rose you are more resistance to disease. I havent had colds the way i had. Because when i was sleep deprived i was per pet allly getting colds. The other thing is i bring more joy to everything i am doing. Actually right now when i look back at my sleep deprived self, i dont like that version. Because i was more irritable. More cranky,. Rose i didnt like you when you were irritable and cranky. I didnt know that you could be better. But dont you feel thatting when you are sleep deprived. The slightest thing upsets you. Rose you become irritable and cranky. I have never been irritable and cranky. That is because of your naps. Rose because of my naps. Lets talk about sleep disorders. Yes. Rose because there are sleep apnea is one. Sleep apnea is a major one. And sleep apnea is at the heart of a lot of the problems with sleep. And often it is undiagnosed. There is more awareness now. Rose what is the danger of sleep apnea. The dang certificate that your sleep is never recharging nufer. You never go deep enough. You never often go into recommend sleep which is the really recharging sleep. And as a result, you are always exhausted. And therefore all the other consequences of more likely to be diabetic, more likely to have hypertension, come up. And also, it is a huge problem when it comes to Drowsy Driving. You know, this has begun one of the big. So you are affecting not only your life but others. Exactly. This has been one. Epidemics,ed silent epidemics because weve been dealing with drunk driving at least in terms of awareness. All the numbers have been going down. But the numbers of Drowsy Driving have been going up. Last year we had a million, 200,000 crashes. Because of Drowsy Driving and will,000 deaths. People who crossed the lane in heads on collisions. Exactly it can happen in microsecretaries of microsleep. So we are also launching a campaign with uber against Drowsy Driving. Because now the great news is because of all this ridesharing technologies, you can actually get a. How do you launch a campaign with uber. You are doing multiple things. A petition can charge. Org that people can sign that is basically the same as a deses ignited Driver Campaign that says i will not drive drowsy. And i will not let my friends drive drowsy. To go against the machismo thing that way yeah im tired but im going to power through. Im going have a cup of coffee or drink a coke and power through. In other cities where im going to be, im going to ride along with uber drivers and people can request me to talk about sleeping the back of the uber ride. So sleeping with other people. Yes, a big problem. It should be avoided at all costs. No, not true. No, but actually, seriously, there is you know, im greek. And there is a big difference in europe, in kaises you thought my accent was from arizona. I did. I thought shes south western for sure. But there say big difference here. People think that if you dont always sleep with someone, whether they snr, whether they have to get up in the middle of the night t means you dont love them. It means you are not going to have sexment and the european attitude is very different. Rose what is that. Which is basically if one of you snrs and the other one cannot sleep, it is better to sleep apart. You can have sex, and then separate, you know, its not like, it doesnt preclude. Rose you dont have to be in the same bed. The whole night. Because then what happens is you wake up exhausted. Irritable and its worse for the relationship. Rose okay, how about things like trying to make up for sleep. In other words you only got four hours so tonight i will sleep ten. Well, obviously thats better than not doing it. Rose but you cant really. You cant really make up for sleep. But what is essentially to just look at our lives in terms of, of recovery time. You know, your charlie rose weekend in aspen, we had this great session. Thanks to you. With andre and goodal, the Golden State Warriors mv pment and he was a maying. He talked about how getting ght hours sleep dramically changes the game. Doesnt lebron and everybody else. Lebron, could beie bryant, but what has happened with andre is he has documented it. And he shows to all the c. E. O. St that you have accumulated at your conference the direct impact on his performance. His fouls going down by 45 . All those specific numbers. Explain to me. Fouls. What is the foul. A foul. What say foul. You want me to give you a lecture. You took me to a basketball game once and had to explain everything to me. I know. I dont know anything more that that. So he doesnt foul as much. He downt foul as much, exactly. But all the data t is all if the book, of how his game improved. It was really impressive to see all these c. E. O. St there. Who thought that show in order to continue to be successful and to be achieving, they had to sacrifice sleep. Look at a major athlete. Who valued his sleep. Rose whose performance is essential. Because it was essential for his performance. Somebody else that you have interviewed and that you know well, roger federer. Yes. He talks about how essential his sleep is before a game day, to the point, to the point when before he has a separate house for himself and a separate house for his family. So he his sleep. He sees them and then goes home and goes to bed. Not just a separate bedroom. You have a very successful company. You are the editor. You write books about thrive and sleep revolution. Anything missing . Do you have great ambitions that are unfulfilled . Know, i feel very blessed. You look great. Are you ageless. I have two daughters. I know. That you know well. Graduates of yale. Yes. And my oldest daughter Just Launched a series called talk to me. Rose its wonderful. Im glad you mentioned it. It is kids talking to their parents. Yes. Rose it is the single thing i more than one but one month things that i regret which is that i never spent time, knowing the skills that i have, to talk to my parents. Yeah. Rose that much. And record it. Th a first rate mind and afather first rate and this is a great idea. Well. Kids interviewing parents. Exactly. And we for example were interviewing his dad, is incredibly moving. And actually we just showed sam bronson interviewing richard. And bree interviewing her dad ron howard. And what christina said, and thats why she wanted to create the series, is that normally when children talk to their parents, they talk about themselves. Yes. And she wanted to turn the tables on them. And then create a structure where hundreds of thousands of people around the world can actually interview their parents. It is a great idea it is an idea as important as the sleep revolution. Thank you for coming. Its great to see you. You are as wonderful as always. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. For more about sth visit us online at pbs. Org and charlie rose. Com am captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following an gi bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information sr befores. Tomorrow newshour looking at the protecting students privacy in the digital age this is nightly Business Report with Tyler Mathisen and sue herera. Offshore bombshell. Leaked documents from papapanam show how some of the worlds power players use offshore accounts and the fall out goes global. Product or profit . Should investors buy Companies Based on a hot product or can hype get in the way . How one man took his passion for americas past time to a whole new level. All that and more on nightly Business Report for monday, april 4th. Good evening, everyone. Welcome. Tyler mathisen is on assignment this evening. Tonight we begin with a story that continues to unfold, and is having ripple effects around the