russia's occupation, and why it is at stake here for not only that ukrainians but the world. >> there are real elements of democracy in ukraine. the russians have sought to crush that, destroy it. every liberated territory, they've discovered torture chambers, makeshift jails, thousands of ukrainians have been deported to russia, including ukrainian children, who've been separated from their parents. we don't even know the full numbers. it's many thousands, it maybe up to ten of thousands. knowing that this is what happens on occupied territory, knowing this is what happens on their land, ukrainians can't not fight. the amazing torture, the amazing destruction on the territory they've occupied is something we are going to learn a lot about over the next few years. it explains both why the ukrainians fight and it also explains why it's going to be so difficult to end the war. >> all right. the atlantic's anne applebaum,