Sony pictures not to mess with north korea . You want us to kill the leader of north korea . Yes. What . Angelina jolie, Leonardo Dicaprio and Kevin Federline all victimized as a Sony Pictures hack gets exponentially worse. All that plus the latest on witness 40 when all in starts right now. To quote one of the eyewitnesses, like a Football Player with your head down. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Calls are mounting around the world for the senior officials who authorized and carried out torture to be prosecuted after the Senate Intelligence committees report on the cias detention and Interrogation Program released yesterday revealed this governments torture regime was far more brutal and widespread than previously documented. Top u. N. Officials including the high commissioner for human rights said the reports findings showed clear violations of International Law that demand accountability. While the u. N. Secretary general ban kimoon hopes the report is the stat of prosecutions according to a u. N. Spokesman. It was signed in 1998 by president Ronald Reagan who said, the convention marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the convention by the u. S. Will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today. Reagans line about other inhuman treatment or punishment is key because, while new york congressman peter king may dismiss whats described in the Senate Report saying, were talking about people being made to stand in awkward positions, have water put into their nose and into their mouth. Nobody suffered any lasting injures from this. The tactics employed by the cia clearly fall under the umbrella of torture. Not just under International Law but under our own laws here in the u. S. Here is just one example of something defined in the u. S. Criminal code at this moment as torture. Prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from the threat that another person will be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering. Cia officers also threatened at least three detainees with harm to their families to include threats to harm the children of a detainee, a threat to sexually abuse the mother of a detainee and a threat to cut a detainees mothers throat. They decided not to pursue it, told the a. P. Today it found no new information in the report that would cause its criminal investigation to be reopened. When asked about the report by jose diazbalart, president obama sounded a similarly even tone. I think its important for us not to paint any broad brush about all the incredible, dedicated professionals in our Intelligence Community based on some actions that i think were really contrary to who we are, but i think it is also important for us to face up to the fact that when countries are threatened, oftentimes they act rashly in ways that, in retrospect, were wrong. But in a forthright speech on the Senate Floor Today mark udall called on the president to get rid of all those responsible for torture in the cia including director john brennan. Its bad enough not to prosecute these officials, but to reward or promote them and risk the integrity of the u. S. Government to protect them is incomprehensible. The president needs to purge his administration of high level officials who are instrumental to the development and running of this program. All this means is that instead of having a debate about crime and punishment, we are having a debate about politics. And having defined them beyond the pale of lawful activity, this report isnt surprising. In 2005, 38 said torturing terrorism suspects to gain information can be justified, by 2013 that number had risen. We invited him to be on the show tonight. He accepted then declined. Joining me now is kenneth ross, the director of Human Rights Watch. What is the position of Human Rights Watch in the wake of yesterdays report about the legal action that should be pursued . We are a hundred percent for prosecution. Chris, as you pointed out, theres no question that this was torture. In fact, one of the interesting things in the Senate Report is that the cia knew from the start it was torture and it wasnt shopping around for legal cover. I mean, first went to the Justice Department and said, would you promise not to prosecute . And Michael Chertoff who at the time was the head of the criminal division, to his credit, said no, im not going to give you that kind of a promise. Then they shopped around to the more politicized lawyers in the government and they ultimately got their opinion saying that torture is not torture, trying to justify the unjustifiable. Now theyre trying to wave that around, its unfair if you prosecute us for torture, we relied in good faith on legal counsel, but the report shows this was not good faith at all, this was shopping for a politicized opinion. The other thing is as you note the torture convention requires not only that government refrain from torture, which obama has done, as far as we know, but also that they prosecute torture. Here obama is blatantly flouting the convention. And hes doing it basically for political reasons. He calculated early on i remember speaking with him his first few months in office. He calculated that prosecuting the bush officials who ordered the torture would be too divisive with the right wing in congress. He had a legislative agenda he wanted to pursue. He feared backlash. Clearly, he hasnt gotten much cooperation for that compromise in principle, but were able to see that hes willing on his own, hes issuing environmental rules, issuing immigration rules, why give up on this either to placate the right wing and finally do the right thing, use this for the senate as finally an excuse to prosecute the people who he had been closing his eyes to the crimes until now. Let me play you this bit of an interview, dick cheney who spoke today on this and its not surprising what he said, but it does reiterate the fact that all these folks are still around. Obviously, theyre still members of the public in good standing. And are still making the same arguments. Listen. Did the end justify the means . Absolutely. No doubt in your mind . No doubt in my mind, im totally comfortable with it. We did what we felt was necessary. The professionals and the Intelligence Community, especially the cia did one hell of a job and they deserve our gratitude. When you talk about prosecution, kenneth, are you talking about dick cheney or george bush . What should the prosecution look like . Who should be prosecuted . Were talking about cheney, his aide addington. Were talking about probably george tenet. But let me comment on cheneys comment there, this view that the ends justify the means. First of all, the Senate Report showed that we got bupkis for this torture. Thats what terrorists do. Weve got a political goal and were going to flout the most basic rules of humanity in order to get there. In this case the goal was legitimate, protecting americans. The means used violated the most basic prohibition there is, the one against torture. Kenneth ross for Human Rights Watch, thank you for joining us. Thank you. One aspect of the torture regime that i honestly knew little about was that, according to the report, the cia hired two psychologists to devise its methods of torture and paid them 81 million to do it. It refers to them under the names of Grayson Swigert and hammond dunbar. The report suggests they were behind some of the cias most brutal tactics. Officers aligned with it complained that they were running a sissified Interrogation Program. One of them told reuters that it was a bunch of hooey. In an exclusive report entitled the architect which premiered today, vice news sat down with mitchell. The purpose of the enhanced Interrogation Program was to get the detainee to be willing to engage with a debriefer or a targeter who was asking a question, and that it wasnt designed so that you would ask questions about actual intelligence while the detainee was experiencing the enhanced Interrogation Program. Almost like a good cop, bad cop kind of setup with a really bad cop. Joining me now Investigative Reporter who produced that piece. Let me start at the beginning and ask what may seem a strange question, but how do you even put out a contract for psychologists to consult on torture . Whats even the genesis of this when the whole things classified and top secret, how do they even connect with these two men . Thats a great question, chris. I filed actually a freedom of information act request for this contract about three years ago, and the cia issued whats known as a neither confirm nor deny that this exists. The Senate Confirms that there was a contract, a 180 million contract, that the Firm Received 80 million out of that. After 9 11, as James Mitchell says in this interview, he made a phone call to someone who was managing one of his contracts. He said something should be done, and this person on the phone said to him, how can we ask anyone else to do something if youre not willing to do it yourself . So it appears that at that moment that was sort of the start of getting involved in doing something. He said he wanted to be part of the solution. And apparently that solution meant taking this defensive program known as Survival Evasion Resistance escape, this was a program taught to u. S. Military personnel how to avoid being tortured if they were captured by an enemy regime. And we turned that into an offensive program. That program was reverse engineered by James Mitchell and john jensen. So this sere program which a lot of folks go through, is how you resist being tortured, did James Mitchell actually do any of like, was he in the room . Was he sending emails to folks . Maybe try a, you know, rectally hydrating them . Maybe try smashing them against a wall . Maybe suggest youre going to kill someones mother . How in depth was this, how handson from him . He could not speak about his specific role in this program due to a nondisclosure agreement that he signed with the cia. However, i can say that he had personally waterboarded Khalid Sheikh mohammed and abu zubaydah. And he was handson. He was right there in the room wearing the black hood. He calls it in the clip that i had seen and so few of the clips of enhanced interrogation techniques, does he actually use the word torture . He uses the word torture when he sees the word torture. The real torture is what the Islamic State did to the captives that it held. Including waterboarding james foley, as we know, which doesnt count as real torture. That he actually said he felt really horrible about that, really horrible about what the Islamic State did, that the waterboarding that james foley and others were subject to, but he claimed the media. He said its the medias fault because this is a classified program and they never should have reported on it. My colleague who conducted this interview did challenge him on that. He said the act itself is not to blame. Mitchell took a step back and said its a shared responsibility. But you know, he is someone who absolutely believes that these techniques were effective. He also disputes the fact that he received 80 million. He said thats absolutely not true. Would not give the amount that he received or what his company received, but, you know, hes very, very defensive of this. He also wanted to point out during this interview that while the Senate Report and other investigations said that he did not have any experience, he says that he has decades of experience. Thank you very much. Senator Elizabeth Warren is mad. This is a democracy and the American People didnt elect us to stand up for citigroup. They elected us to stand up for all the people. Im going to take a guess that former congressman barney frank is also mad about the same thing, ill find out when i talk to him, ahead. The Holiday Season is here, which means its time for the volkswagen signthendrive event. For practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a germanengineered volkswagen. Like the sporty, advanced new jetta. 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But when he was serving as Milwaukee County executive he responded to a letter from a jewish constituent who seemed to inquire about the possibility of a menorah being placed at the courthouse. He approved the request again and molotov. It was a mistake. But close. [coughing] dave, im sorry to interrupt. I gotta take a sick day tomorrow. Dads dont take sick days, dads take nyquil. The nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, fever, best sleep with a cold, medicine. [coughing] hey amanda, sorry to bother you, but i gotta take a sick day. Moms dont take sick days, moms take dayquil. The non drowsy, coughing, aching, fever, sore throat, stuffy head, power through your day medicine. Whoever you voted for in this last election, whatever you think about the big issues like obama care and immigration, one thing we can all agree on is when americans went to the polls last month, they wanted white potatoes for low income children and pregnant mothers, looser Campaign Finance laws and less regulation of risky wall street behavior. Im just kidding. Thats what were getting buried in the massive new bill to fund the government for nine months. It is for continuing resolution and omnibus is a provision to roll back a key piece of the dodd frank financial reform law that was designed to limit damage from risky derivatives trading. The inclusion of that measure in the spending bill prompted an apoplectic senator Elizabeth Warren to call on her colleagues. Who does Congress Work for . Does it work for the millionaires, the billionaires, the economies with their lobbyists and lawyers or does it work for all the people . I urge my colleagues in the house, particularly my democratic colleagues whose votes are essential to moving this package forward, to withhold support from it until this risky giveaway is removed from the legislation. If the bill does not pass, the governments set to shut down tomorrow night at midnight, although congressional leaders have drafted a shortterm backup if it fails. Failure is a real possibility. John boehner does not appear to have enough republican votes to pass it without democratic support. Nancy pelosi said in a Statement Today that her caucus is deeply troubled by the provisions to roll back wall street regulations and loosen Campaign Finance laws. Chris van hollen has said to vote no. He declined so say whether president obama would sign the bill. Joining me is former democratic congressman barney frank, he of dodd frank. Hes an msnbc contributor. Congressman barney i dont know what to call you any more. Not congressman barney. Im still barney, im not a congressman. So just barney from the block. Lets talk about this provision, and if you can explain it in sort of lay terms, what does it do now, why is it important and why do the banks want to get rid of it . We had an amendment offered by senator lincoln from arkansas i must say originally, i thought it went a little too far, but we worked on it in conference in public with a lot of discussion of it. And it essentially says that banks it already limits what banks can do with derivatives and other risky Financial Instruments with their own money. There is some leeway, though. What this says is if the banks want to do these particularly risky transactions with derivative, they have to set up a separate subsidiary. Remember, banks get deposit insurance. We did, i think effectively say that an institution that fails will not be bailed out and kept alive, it will be liquidated, but you do have deposit insurance. Theres a claim that we have to honor to protect depositors, not shareholders, not executives, but the deposit iters. What we were trying to do is have as little chance as possible for their to be a failure that would draw on the deposit fund. The bill does not prevent these banks its only the biggest banks that would do this. Right. It doesnt prevent them from engaging in the activity, if it is a particular activity that has real economic value, they can do it. All it says, the law, is do it in a separately organized subsidiary, so you dont tap into the deposit insurance bank. You have the insurance from the fdic, well backstop you as a taxpayer. If you want to go and play in this very risky, lucrative market that can blow up in a massively destructive way, you have to set up a spinoff that be walled off from our system that protects you as a back stop . Right, i want to make this distinction. We protect and continue to protect depositors. We no longer protect as a result of this bill, the institution, an aig or any other. The institution could still fail but there would be a claim on deposit insurance. I dont want to protect shareholders or bond holders or boards of directors from imprudent decisions, but you cant penalize the average depositor since were talking about sums of 250,000 or less. What the amendment does is to remove that safeguard and let them tap back into and put at risk the deposit insurance funds. Nothing gets a lobbyist more excited than the phrase must pass bill. And the wall street lobbyists were like we want to be able to do this risky lucrative stuff. Maybe we can shove this in here and nobody will notice. Do you think thats how it goes down . Absolutely. I want to give my former colleagues credit. Nancy pelosi in fact i look, i dont have to follow this every day any more. I got a phone call from nancy pelosi telling me about it and urging me to speak out. I put out my own statement urging my former colleagues to vote no. And Elizabeth Warren, of course, has been there, one of the things i want to deal with, this threat, oh, it must pass. No, it must not. You know what will happen if this bill fails or what could happen if this bill fails and ive been there and its happened. Within an hour they can bring it back up without this obnoxious provision and i would pass. Its not this bill or the end of the world or even the budget for the end of this year. Its an amendment that is put in there and what goes in can come out. If a majority of the house rejects this, they could literally within the hour bring back it wont take them an hour. Take a black pen, knock that out and it will go forward. Heres what i really want to stress, what worries me is not just this one provision, not the heart of the bill, but this is a preview of coming detractions yes. If the republicans who are the muscle behind this get away with it, and unfortunately, the Senate Democratic leaders went along and i think they made a great error, but it was the republicans who took the lead on this. If they get away with this, thats the pattern. The republicans understand, they think that health care is unpopular. They keep trying to repeal it with votes. They understand that financial reform is popular. They have to do it stealthily. They dont dare do it headon. So if they get away with this, if they can sneak this into a bill, there are no debate, no hearings, no chance to amendment and heres the key, republicans or democrats who vote for this bill will be able to say, well, i wasnt really in favor of that, but i had to keep the government going. So if theyre able to use that dodge to begin to weaken this bill, then were back to where we were before we had the cries. Barney frank, thank you, sir. The debut of our very first allin crime stopper segment is next. 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Now a Chemical Spill leading to a state of emergency overnight. 300,000 people in West Virginia are being told to stay away from their tap water, not to use it for anything, cooking, bathing, washing, anything at all. The source of the problem thats closed restaurants and schools is 4methylcyclohexane methanol, a chemical thats used in coal processing. January 9th, a tank belonging to Freedom Industries ruptured leaking coal cleaning chemicals into the river. Gary southern stood in front of a microphone pounding bottled water while 300,000 people had a tap water ban. He then complained to the media that hes been having a long day. Look, guys, its been an extremely long day. Im having trouble talking. Id appreciate it if we could wrap this thing up. We actually have a lot of questions. This is a long day for a lot of people who dont have water. Exactly a week after that appearance, Freedom Industries filed for bankruptcy in what looked to us at the time to be an effort to shield themselves from liability. Those bankruptcy proceedings are ongoing. But on monday Freedom Industries former president gary southern, he of water drinking fame was arrested at his florida home on federal charges of bankruptcy fraud, wire fraud and lying under oath during the companys bankruptcy hearings. The fbi says southern lied over and over again in court over his involvement in Freedom Industries before the catastrophic Chemical Spill. Theyre either outright lies or at the very least misleading. The complaint says that southern repeatedly told the court he barely had anything to do with Freedom Industries until a few weeks before the spill and described his role as a parttime financialtype consultant. The fbi said he was hired in may 2009 to serve as freedoms ceo. He served on the board of directors from march 2010 until october 2013, managed their Business Affairs at two facilities and exercised authority in hiring employees, executed contracts and supervised employees. Southerns attempt to downplay his role prior to the spill looks at its face to protect his personal assets from Bankruptcy Court and a number of lawsuits filed against his former employer, some of which name him specifically. Yesterday southern was released after he posted 100,000 bond. In a statement, his lawyer said we feel like garys being singled out. The allegations arent true. We intend to fight them vigorously. If hes not successful, he faces 30 years in federal prison. Last night we offered a look at the testimony of witness 40 the Equipment Tracking system will get you to the loading dock. There should be a truck leaving now. I got it. Now jump off the bridge. What . In 3. 2. 1. Are you kidding me . Go. Right on time. Right now, over 20,000 trains are running reliably. 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Like, if you could save hundreds on Car Insurance by making one simple call, why wouldnt you make that call . See, the only thing i can think of is that you cant get any. Bars. Ah, thats better. Its a beautiful view. I wonder if i can see mt. Rushmore from here. Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on Car Insurance. Last night we offered a look at the testimony of witness 40 in the grand jury. The witness who stated in the most charitable terms seems to have some issues. This is the witness who in journal pages ended up on the drive where Michael Brown was shot because, in her words, need to understand the black race better so i can stop calling blacks nword and start calling them people. The cop just stood there and dang if that kid didnt start running right at the cop like a Football Player head down. This witness is one being cited repeatedly on fox news by sean hannity. Then, quote, he looked like a Football Player with his head down charging at officer wilson. Charged at him, quote, like a Football Player with his head down charging. That Michael Brown was charging like a Football Player full force on officer wilson. One witness described it as charging at officer wilson like a Football Player with his head down. Dont charge him to quote one of the eyewitnesses like a Football Player with your head down. Another witness said that Michael Brown charged officer wilson like a Football Player with his head down. Dang, if that kid didnt start running right at the cop like a Football Player with his head down. After we did our story last night, conservative reporter from the daily caller, chuck ross, normally no fan of this show or msnbc, called out hannity. Its crazy that sean hannity is still citing witness 40. People started tweeting, here is your favorite witness, to which hannity replied, one of many witnesses, i was not on gjury. Thats true. He was not on the grand jury. Why witness 40 was even allowed to testify before the grand jury at all . Weve not yet received a reply. The very fact that witness 40 testified before the grand jury is evidence of how strange the grand jury process can be and why many people view it in this case at least as a cynical exercise in which prosecutors were protecting Police Officers when Police Officers are the defendant. It is all part of the culture of Law Enforcement, brotherhood of blue. Our next guest former cop of the st. Louis Police Department recently wrote, cops were not being held accountable for their actions and racism on the force was rampant. A couple officers ran a website called st. Louis cop talk where officers could post about their experiences and opinion. At some point during my career it became so full of racist rants that the site administrator temporarily shut it down. Cops routinely called anyone of color a thug whether a victim or a bystander. Joining me a former st. Louis cop. Redditt, you had a great post about your time being a police officer. Why did you enter the force and why did you decide to leave . I entered the force largely due to the fact that i saw it as an opportunity to help in the community from an empowered position with access to resources, and in many respects, it was that. Ultimately, though, chris, i had to leave the department because i became so profoundly disillusioned with the criminal Justice System in the United States and the behavior of some of my fellow officers in particular. I no longer wanted to participate in the front end of a system that was so characterized by severe inequity, much of which had been legislated into it, as a result of the targeted enforcement that i saw. I didnt want to participate any more. It was interesting to listen to you describe witness 40 from the grand jury. I myself with other people also talked to witnesses to the Michael Brown shooting, credible witnesses, and there were other inconsistencies with not only witness 40 but with the Police Department in ferguson itself. I was in a room when chief jackson said in words to myself and others from organizations that Darren Wilson had no knowledge of Michael Brown being allegedly involved in a robbery prior to his encounter with him. The chief told us this. Somehow between that statement and the time information is presented to the grand jury, Darren Wilson suddenly creates an awareness at some point during the encounter that Michael Brown was allegedly involved in a robbery. Darren wilson processes his own evidence, the scene was not properly processed. He didnt call the shooting in initially. There were so many circumstances that would have allowed for a grand jury had it been properly directed by a prosecutor that meant to do his job to at least send this to a jury, a trial jury. Its really a breakdown in the system and the black community and communities of color consistently are suffering due to the lack of integrity in the system that we have right now. One of the issues that i think this all raises and the piece you wrote raises is how internally police and Law Enforcement officers deal with bad actors among their ranks. I mean, you talk about hearing people say really nasty stuff. Witnessing officers violating peoples rights. And the question is what is the culture like that you experienced firsthand in how thats dealt with . Is it sort of you look aside, you call someone aside and say, that guys bad news . Or do people just sort of go about their business and allow those people to fester . I think its the latter. Generally its not dealt with. Thats the luxury of officers that abuse their authority have. Theyre going to be investigated by their friends if theres an allegation of excessive force. Theyre going to be sent on paid administrative leave while that is conducted otherwise known as a vacation and when they return because everyone involved is so indoctrinated in that culture of protection and that culture of not only protecting the officer but protecting the larger narrative that officers can do no wrong, we put our lives on the line every day, how dare you ever question what we do, there is no real accountability. And internal investigations are something that i have very little if any confidence in. You name an entity for me that you trust to investigate itself particularly when theres punishment or possible liability at the other end of that investigation. It doesnt happen. And i really want the country to know. Youve been looking for the last 100 days at ferguson, now new york. I want the country to know that, yes, Law Enforcement is a difficult job and there are many people in it trying to do that very difficult job, but the number of people in Law Enforcement, as weve seen, who will knowingly and maliciously violate your human rights, civil rights and Civil Liberties is far too large for us not to have a response to them, a meaningful way to hold them accountable fully for what they do to us. Redditt hudson with strong words. A former police officer, thank you very much. The details surrounding the Sony Pictures hack continue to be absolutely fascinating as more and more information gets leaked. In a few minutes ill give you Leo Dicaprios cell phone number. Kidding. But stay tuned anyway. Vo the good more is capturing heey the moment they open their gifts from verizon. Awesome, woah a Bose Bluetooth speaker and. Cut. The notsogoodmore alright honey, this time face towards the light. Is take two. Were you naughty . Were you nice . 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Take the comcast business speed test. Get faster speeds or more savings, or well give you 150. Comcast business. Built for business. Sony pictures continues to reel from if not the biggest hack in recent memory, perhaps the most public. A few weeks ago a Group Calling itself gop, not the republican party, guardians of peace, hacked into Sony Pictures. After that one embarrassing blow after another. The hackers have leaked executive salaries, revealing gender pay disparities. Celebrity Social Security numbers, celebrity phone numbers, aliases celebrities use to check into hotels. Actors have uploaded several sony films to the internet. It could cost Sony Pictures 100 million. The private company hired by sony calls the hack an unparalleled, well planned crime for which Sony Pictures could not have been prepared. Another official told a Banking Senate hearing this type of hack would have slipped past. It would have slipped probably gotten past 90 of those out there today in private industry and i challenge to say government. The big question is who did this and why. And strong speculation continues to center around north korea. Now senior fbi official told a Cyber Security conference yesterday, quote this is important there is no attribution to north korea at this point. The reason people are looking to north korea is north korea is furious over an upcoming Sony Pictures comedy the interview which centers on a plot to kill kim jong un. The company praised it as a righteous deed of the supporters and sympathizers. While the origin of the attack is still unclear, Sony Pictures executives seemed to be worried about the film before the hack took place. Studio executives were cautioned by the department of Homeland Security this summer the film could provoke retaliation. A spokesperson tells the times there was no warning from Homeland Security. There was another warning at sony that we know about because of the hack. Two months before the attack executives were discussing concerns raised by the studios Parent Company in japan regarding the films final and rather graphic scene. As for whats next, Sony Pictures still plans to release the film on Christmas Day and its scheduled to premiere in l. A. Tomorrow night, though there will be no interview, no broadcast media will be invited to the films red carpet. North korea is already taken s for my business. And i get a lot in return with ink plus from chase. Like 50,000 bonus points when i spent 5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. And i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at Office Supply stores. With ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. Travel, gift cards, even cash back. And my rewards points wont expire. So you can make owning a business even more rewarding. Ink from chase. So you can. Came out of the cupboard. Literally. 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I have to say, when we talk about Edward Snowden and the nsa, the nsa is a public entity, a right to know issue here. In the sony hacking, this looks like a crime, malicious crime meant to damage sony. And theres part of me that feels like publishing anything from it is complicit in that. Thats something weve thought a lot about and something we considered very carefully when we were figuring out what if anything to publish from these documents. There is sort of civic good balancing test. You dont want to publish things that are damaging to people unnecessarily and we havent published Social Security numbers or phone numbers or medical information or any of the other really Sensitive Information thats in this leak. There are things that i think represent a sort of civic good. The gender pay disparity is one of them. What you have essentially in the sony hack is an enormous data set what people at one of the largest studios in hollywood are paid. When you break that down and use it for analysis, you end up with really interesting and i think valuable and important sort of to democracy and to industry. These are important things and i think theres certainly a balancing test. So let me just i want to go on this one more round with you. Basically im inclined as sort of you publish everything, im maximalist in this. But here it seems you have a crime thats been committed with the express intent of damaging the reputation of sony. The people who have done this are doing it explicitly to destroy sonys reputation. So all the stuff were seeing now and not just the gender pay disparity but embarrassing email, a sony executive talking smack about a star. Its giving the criminals what they wanted, isnt it . It is. Theres a question about complicity or not. The important thing to remember is these documents were published publicly by the hackers themselves. Theyve been distributed through the media, but theyve been made public long before we decided to do anything with them. Sony i got to think that its real crisis mode. You have got a situation in which people are reading back and forths about films in development in which executives are saying nasty things about stars. The idea that anyone will want to work with them again, this is real tangible reputational damage. Oh, my gosh, first that comes to mind is Angelina Jolie. Go ahead and attack her. Right there, i dont know whats going to happen. You have brad pitt who has worked with scott rubin before who is the one who sent these emails who called her minimally talented and a spoiled brat. When you call Angelina Jolie who is hollywoods goddess Something Like that and now its leaked i dont know their ego, i dont know whats going on over there, but it wont be good for sony. Now the issue that they have to deal with this movie thats coming out. This brings me back to this other question that i find myself in the weird position of saying this seems a horrible precedent. You dont want foreign governments bullying people into not doing it because of possible criminal acts. But i dont know, maybe you shouldnt make a movie about, as a separate matter, like the idea of making a comedy about the murder of a foreign head of state also seems a little messed up. Sonys in the awkward position where it may not want to release this movie any more, but now theres like theres sort of a state craft element to it. Like they have to release this movie because to not do it would be to capitulate to whoever is out there that doesnt want them to release this movie. Theyre in the awkward position of having green lit this thing and poured money into it and now having to defend it even though its causing them a tremendous amount of pain. Obviously north korea and the u. S. Are extremely different regimes in a million ways. But if a foreign nation produced a big budget comedy about assassinating president barack obama, we wouldnt find it funny. I dont know how this got through sony. This is one of those ideas that has been controversial. Ever since they started shooting it. Because theyre talking about a real leader and actually going out and killing him. I mean, make up somebody fake. Make up a fake country. Maybe that into work. But i still dont know how this is going to be a movie. To be honest, now everyone is interested in seeing this. So sony will make the money back. Thats the craziest thing is in this bizarre way i want to be clear that sony didnt bring this on themselves because they made this movie. I want the make it clear that i dont think that. I dont think anyone thinks that. Theyre distinct questions. But in a weird way, now more publicity for the interview than you could ever possibly have imagined. Right. I think thats small comfort to them at this point. Right. Because whatever money they made will be wildly eclipsed by the amount of money theyll have to spend rebuilding their systems. But theres probably people inside sony saying this movie better be really good at this point. You can imagine the people that are associated with it are also feeling the heat internally in terms of office politics, institutional politics. If theres a politician inside season they the sort of source of their troubles lies with this film. Right. What do you say if youre the guy that green lit the the interview . Its been a rough 48 hours but the cubs signed jon lester today. Things are looking up. The Rachel Maddow show starts now. As a red sox fan, it still hurts. Thanks for rubbing it in. On the case. All right, i quit. No, im back. Hello. Thats not what this jobs about at all. Thanks, chris. Thanks to you at home for joining us. The president of afghanistan held a press Conference Today to announce that he had been up all night. He told reporters in kabul today at a press conference that he had stayed up all night last night reading the u. S. Senate report on the cia torture program during the george w. Bush administration. The president of afghanistan said he was astounded by the revelations in the report and he wanted the Afghan People to be assured that that era was over. And then, what followed immediately was the news that the last american prison in afghanistan was closed today. Bagram is a big u. S. Military