From losing the popular vote. And as the plot to dismantle obamacare unfolds, a certain doctor returns with his prescription. His Laboratory Tests are astonishingly excellent. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. We are now 30 days from donald trump becoming president of the United States and 146 days from the day he last held a press conference. Back on july 27th when trump opened his remarks attacking Hillary Clinton for you guessed it not holding press conferences. For you as the reporters who give her the glowing reports should ask yourselves why. And ill tell you why. Because despite the nice platitudes, shes been a mess. Trump did speak briefly twice to reporters today, though it certainly wasnt a press conference. It was closure of the conversation you would have as a Hotel Manager if youre checking in and you quickly wanted to get his views on the issue of the day. He was at maralago where he met with michael flynn. Earlier this afternoon trump emerged to speak to reporters for all of 74 seconds. Even though we didnt learn much it was in its own way illuminating. Everything good . Yes. Mr. President elect okay. So lets break that down. Trump kicks things off by asking reporters if theyre enjoying his fancy club as they tried to ask him substantive questions. So the news there, trump appears to be suggesting the attacks in europe prove that his call for Muslim Registry and or a fullout ban on all muslim immigration are 100 correct which presumably means his administration plans to ban muslim immigration but yesterday on this network a trump adviser said that we walked back from the muslim ban. Your comments about the truck attack in berlin being against christians, do you think that this might say it again. What . Your the attack in berlin being against being an attack against christians. When was that said . I believe you said it in a press release. The reporter is right. Trump did in fact say that. Heres his press release on the in the United States and require them to sign up, but if he does that, well know about it. But this sort of black box. Which presumably means his administration plans to ban muslim immigration but yesterday on this network a trump adviser said that we walked back from the muslim ban. I guess the question of whether the incoming president plans to ban members of a religion remains open. We have to find out. The man looking over trumps shoulder, michael flynn, has repeatedly attacked muslims and tweeted that fear of muslims is rational. Recently met with a leader of a far right Austrian Party founded by exnazis. Trump seems to not be familiar with his own statement from monday on the berlin attack. Have you talked to president obama, sir . I have not. Two days ago but not recently. Not since. Your comments about the truck attack in berlin being against christians, do you think that this might say it again. What . Your the attack in berlin being against being an attack against christians. When was that said . I believe you said it in a press release. The reporter is right. Trump did in fact say that. Heres his press release on the berlin attack. Attributed to president elect donald trump innocent civilians were murdered in the streets as they prepared to celebrate christmas holiday. Isis and other islamist terrorists continually Slaughter Christians in their communities and places of worship. Heres trumps response. So im wondering how this might affect relations with thats an attack on humanity. Thats what it is. An attack on humanity. And its got to be stopped. Thank you. Appreciate it. And that nonanswer was it. He was done. Trump did emerge a couple hours later for a minute and a half photo op where he did answer a few questions about todays meeting and then asked if everyone was comfortable. Yet in just one month hell be the most powerful person in the world. Joining me now, msnbc political analyst joan walsh, and contributor josh barro. First of all, aside from the fact that i think a press conference would be good and it has been a break with tradition not to have one and theres a lot of questions and ambiguity. This summed up that this remains a black box i think its a black box to him. You heard in that 74 seconds. We know nothing. And he doesnt know anything either. He doesnt know that a press release was sent out saying this was an attack on christians. He doesnt know what his muslim policy is. He cant restate it. Theyve walked it back, walked it forward. There was a softening during the campaign, then there was a hardening. I mean, we dont know. This guy should be leaving mints on peoples pillows not leading the world. This is whats so maddening about the transition period is this stuff cant remain a black box forever. Hell soon be president. And hell do things. Hell do things and well know in most cases about the things that hes doing. Although in many cases. Aside from the lack of press conferences is learning about all these things from the foreign press. Well, his National Security adviser met with a party of neonazis. So theres some things we wont even know. There will be some stuff. But if theres a Muslim Registry, well find out about it. The u. S. Sort of did have a Muslim Registry during the presidency. It was for male immigrants of a certain age, mostly for muslim majority countries. Visa holders. Yes. I think its likely theyll bring that policy back. We know kris kobach who is handling the transition will do that. We can surmise what it means. Hell unlikely round up muslims in the United States and require them to sign up, but if he does that, well know about it. But this sort of black box. This is someone who i dont think this is being uncharitable. Clear by both what he says himself and the people around him, hes not that interested in the details of policy. This is not what he does. Were putting the campaign in the past, right . So heres Newt Gingrich talking about the drain the swamp mantra. Which i respect the fact theyre being so transparent about the fact that they view the campaign as a con. They just want everyone to know that. Take a look. You say youve been working on these issues, others might say youve been working in the swamp, to use Donald Trumps language. Im told he now disclaims that. He said it was cute but he doesnt want to use it anymore. That really was a moment in the campaign where there was a little bit of coherence, there was a slogan. He was starting to read from the teleprompter. He was calming down. This was a unified, you know, applause line. What does it mean to say it doesnt matter anymore . We just said it because it was cute. But obviously were filling the swamp. All of my cabinet picks are swamp creatures. That was then, this is now. This is the hallmark of his career for four decades. Ill build the biggest, tallest, most fabulous building and he wouldnt do it and no consequence. He writes that in the art of the deal the power of truthful exaggeration is the word he uses. Will he then get away with this as president . It depends on whether members of the public are satisfied overall that donald trump is making them better off. I dont think that just the fact that he put all these people from Goldman Sachs in the cabinet, that wont hurt him on day one. But 18 months from now, unemployments up, wages arent going well yes. Again this is a maddening thing were watching him get away with these things. Only some circumstances under which hell get away with them as president. Theres a question about this very important piece of policy. You called for this thing that was really quite abhorrent, to editorialize for a moment, banning an entire religion. I say that as someone who shared a view of a person across a a view of a person across a spectrum, you cant do that. You say that with someone looking over your shoulder michael flynn. If it doesnt matter to you, there will be someone somewhere down the chain to whom it does matter. They have a stake in it ideologically or institutionally. So today we have pete navarro named to head the National Trade council, which is the hardest of china hawks. It will matter to that guy. Thats why theyre taking these jobs. Exactly. Because they know theyll have plebt of latitude. Hes not interested, someone is making these picks. Theyre based on past performance. I think it also can matter maybe im too much of an optimist, but democrats do and republicans do have a chance in the confirmation hearings to grill these people and get out what they intend to do and hold up conflicts with what he said and what hes now promising. Goldman sachs people can be made to look like the members of the elite that he was railing against. I think there are going to be opportunities to hold that up. Whether it ultimately matters to people, we dont know. I guess what i worry about from a holdover from the campaign is that, well, none of this mattered to his voters, so why care . I know youre not saying that but i hear that in the media. This is really going to matter. No, i promise you it will matter and they should start now. People from my perspective people should make a difference between substantive objections and political ones. I dont think calling to ban muslims wasnt del he ter yus to him. That was quite popular. Its still wrong. You have to be clear about that distinction. Yeah. And i think, you know, in terms of they spoke about the confirmation hearings except for mike flynn who wont have to have a confirmation hearing which is why he ended up with that job because hes clearly unconfirmable. Hes considered wacky. Like steve bannon. In a lot of these and part of the team of rivals is Donald Trump Holding a casting call. Hes seeking the look. Hes sizing people up. Again, this is not like being uncharitable. There are people on the record saying this. This is him sizing up john bolton, who is you know, is an iraq war hawk, from a school of Foreign Policy that would seem at odds donald was not going to like that mustache said one associate who spoke on the condition of anonymity. I cant think of anyone who is close to donald that has a beard that he likes. Jason miller, his press person has a goatee, i dont know what that says about that relationship. But weird what does this Administration Believe in. Maybe this is whats been guiding the choices. Im sure it is one thing thats been guiding the choices, but it made me wonder why he didnt hire mitt romney. Thats why he interviewed him. People said at the time he likes the look. If bolden shows up at trump tower with a mustache joan walsh and josh barro. The lengths president obama is going to to protect the planet from his successor. But the impressive contortions from those seeking to spin the minority victory by claiming he did win the popular vote if you ignore the results from two of the most populous states in the union. Ive invested a lot in this game. And the returns i get out, are measured in reps. Competition. Sometimes its audibles. Bright lights. Celebrations. Its huddles. Camaraderie. And games played. At Td Ameritrade we believe the best investments are the ones that matter most to you. Generosity is its oyou can handle being a mom for half an hour. Im in all the way. Is that understood . I dont know what shes up to, but its not good. Cant the world be my noodles and butter . Get your mind out of the gutter. Mornings are for coffee and contemplation. That was a really profound observation. You got a mean case of the detox blues. Dont start a war you know youre going to lose. Finally you can now find all of netflix in the same place as all your other entertainment. On xfinity x1. Its official the Election Results were formally certified yesterday. Donald trump won the Electoral College and Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by a healthy margin of 2. 1 finishing with a vote total only 70,000 shy of president obamas 2012 total. We have held 56 president ial leeksz and this marks only the fourth time of those 56 that the winner of the Electoral College lost the popular vote. The deficit hasnt been this big in 140 years, since 1876. Now, these are all true facts about the outcome of the 2016 election, but it seems to make conservatives just crazy whenever you bring them up. Cutting california and new york out of the United States altogether. Trumps margin would indeed be huge if you threw out all the votes in our two most populist states. The mismatch has gotten under the skin of the man who lost the popular vote. Campaigning to win the Electoral College is much more difficult and sophisticated than the popular vote. Hillary focused on the wrong states. I would have done even better if the win was based on popular vote but would campaign differently. I have in the heard any of the pundits discussing the fact that i spent far less money on the win than hillary on the loss. Descriptively hes not wrong. But what this shows on a deeper level is his core characteristics during the campaign that keeping the score, the petty vendettas, the inability to let stuff go, those arent going anywhere. You have seen it in his consideration of mitt romney which was only meant to torture and toy with romney who had blasted him during the campaign. There were trumps tweets to his 17 million followers slamming chuck jones, the president of the local Steel Workers union in indiana. He had criticized the president elect for inflating the number of jobs saved by the carrier deal. Then there was paul ryan at a rally in wisconsin, the first stage the two of them shared after being repeatedly at odds during the campaign. Speaker paul ryan, ive really come to oh, no, ive come to appreciate him. Hes like a fine wine. Every day goes by i get to appreciate his genius more and more. Now, if he ever goes against me, im not going to say that, okay . As far as trump is concerned, this is it. It will be his defining characteristic for the four years of his presidency. Now were seeing the first signs of how that can affect politics and policy making in washington. Texas congressman bill flores made innocuous comments about trumps relationship with House Republicans. I think wed all agree that some of President Trumps proposed policies wont line up very well with our conservative policies. What i would do is i would try to say what are those areas that we have good alignment with where President Trump wants to go and where we want to go and tell him, hey, well take the lead on this. That prompted an onslaught of harassment on twitter, misleading headlines. Indignant name check by trumps staufrmgest ally, sean hannity. I was a little surprised at comments by congressman flores. Ill get to that in a minute. He recently gave a speech, lets go for the issues that the House Republicans agree with and donald trump agree with and then well deal with the other issues later. Im joined by republican charlie dent from pennsylvania. Can you hear me . I can hear you loud and clear, chris. How are you . Excellent. Im good. Good to have you on. Are you going to allow donald trump to dominate you . Oh, my goodness, well work with the president when hes on the right track, support him when hes on the right track. But if he goes in a direction where we disagree, we might have to check him from time to time. I think thats pretty basic. We have a separation of powers system. Congress, you know, were not a bunch of potted plants. We will work in partnership with the administration when theyre on the right track and there might be times where we disagree and there might be times that we can help fashion policy and make it better. Heres an interesting place where this comes to a head. Theres been discussion about a possible infrastructure stimulus bill. Trillion dollars over ten years. A lot of money. Your colleagues in the house sort of famously threaten both default on the u. S. Governments debt and also a shutdown over the National Debt and its size. That was the put attive reason. Were hearing that several members are saying if there was such a big, it would only be 50 paid for. It would expand the deficit quite sizably. Is that something you would go along with or would you object out of principle and consistency . I do paurt the need for an infrastructure bill. I think its important. But i think we should pay for it substantially. The president elect donald trump has talked about tax credits which i think are valuable. But i dont think that would be the entire bill. I think well have to pay for a substantial part of this bill, yes. Substantial part but not all of it . Well, well see. Were talking about a tax reform as well. Talking about using some repatriated funds, perhaps revenues from drilling offshore and perhaps, you know, i think even the user fee can be on the table. So there are a lot of things that can be on the table. Youre talking about different revenue streams, repatriated taxes, user fees. How central do you for yourself is making sure this debt doesnt grow going to be . Because i think its fair to say the central, defining feature of the how about republican congress, the fight over the budget control act. It was the central ideological plank. Theres too much debt, we cant let there be more debt. Will that continue with donald trump as president and republicans in the congress . I think thats a fair question, chris, because if you lookt at president elect trumps agenda hes talking about obviously the infrastructure bill. Hes talking about a defense buildup, a tax reform that could bring in less revenue. Thats all true. And so this could obviously add to the deficit. I think well have a serious conversation between the administration and congress i know. Let me give you my prediction and you tell me whether im wrong or not. When you and i have a conversation like this a year from now and were getting ready to celebrate the holidays in 2017, the debt will be significantly larger and there will be several pieces of legislation passed by you and your colleagues that will have expanded the deficit. Is that a fair prediction . I think its quite possible. But before we do anything in congress, chris, we have to focus on one issue. Theres an assumption that somehow congress will function better. We have to get the basics right. We have to make sure we can fund the government, not lurch from crisis to crisis and make sure the country doesnt default on its obligations. If we wind up in the usual navel gazing episodes that lead to a circular firing squad, that will make it difficult for us to deal with issues like an infrastructure bill, tax reform or whatever the issue of the moment is. I think thats something we have to have a conversation about and also, you know, president elect trump has said that he hasnt wanted to move forward on, say, entitlement changes, medicare and Social Security, and we might have to have that conversation, too, if were going to have the spending discussion thats already been discussed on how important are medicare and Social Security to you . In terms of reforming them . Theyre very important. First, ill tell you that the federal Health Care Problems are the driver of our debt in this country. Far and away more than anything else. Social security has challenges, to be sure, but i think theyre smaller in comparison than the health care program. At some point well have to address medicare so we can protect it for those who are currently on the program and those who are nearly on the program, but we know that changes are going to be made for the next generation. Thats a given. I think at some point we need to have that conversation particularly if were talking about defense buildups and infrastructure bills and tax reform. We have to establish some kind of a Simpson Bowles commission again. I thought that was a good start, by the way. President trump may have to move in that direction at some point. I would know the projections for the federal trust insol ensy a number of decades the biggest growth driver is the cost of medical coverage broadly although thats come down a bit postobamacare. Final question to you just a yes or no. Are you intimidated by president elect trump . No, im not intimidated. I intend to work with him when hes right. And if hes on the wrong track, we might have to check him. No, im not intimidated. Congressman charlie dent. Thank you, chris. He once said that trump would be the healthiest person ever elected to the presidency. I thought about it all day, medical information, still not complete records, but that letter was the last we heard of dr. Bornstein until now. In an interview in stat, the good doctor reflected on his famous patients new role noting, it never occurred to me that he was the oldest president , not for a second. Theres nothing to share on a regular basis about the president s health. Ronald reagan had presenile dementia. Did they share that with you or did nancy just cover it up . If something happens to him, then it happens to him. Its like all the rest of us, no . He went on, thats why we have a Vice President and a speaker of the house and a whole lot of other people. They can just keep dying. You think thats sound medical analysis youll love the advice from one future republican who has a hand in a question after trumps election is still what will happen to obamacare. There are already indications of a division in the republican ranks over what repeal and replace really means. Meanwhile another 6. 4 Million People have signed up for obamacare since november 1st according to Government Data through federally run Health Care Changes in 39 states outpacing last year. 20 Million People have gained Health Insurance coverage because of the Affordable Care act. It might be useful to know what the republicans vision is for the world. Governor huizenga describes how we the consumer can take more responsibility to we dont keep squeezing health care providers. Theres definitely going to be changes in the Health Care Delivery system. We cant just continue to squeeze providers to say, okay, well, this is how were going to save money. At some point or another, we have to be responsible or have a part of the responsibility of whats going on. I just had it. My youngest son went racing out the front door on his way to go to jump on the trampoline. I thought he would get injured on the trampoline. He got injured on the drivetramp arm. We werent sure what was going on. It was in the evening, and so i splinted it up and we wrapped it up and the decision was, okay, do we go to the er . We thought it was a sprain. But werent sure. Took every precaution. And decided to go in the next morning. The cost difference, you know, certainly if he had been more seriously injured, we would have taken him in. If you dont have any cost difference, you know, you will make different decisions. Joining me now sara cliff, a Senior Editor at fox who writes about health care. I thought this was an admirably honest look at what happens if you sort of take the idea of consumers having, quote, skin in the game in a literal sense, the skin that might be wounded when your son breaks his arm as the way to squeeze costs out of the system. Is this going to be a central part of how republicans envision the Health Care System . I think it will be. You already heard leading up to this fight republicans talking a lot about consumers having more skin in the game, about deciding when to use health care, being responsible. I think youve already heard from paul ryan that his focus, he is less concern with universal coverage. Hes more concerned with the idea of universal access. As long as everyone has a chance to buy a plan, the republicans at this point seem less concerned with keeping up with the coverage numbers weve seen under the Affordable Care act. Part of the problem here, right, and its a problem for the Affordable Care act as well that its just not a normal market good. The whole point when your son breaks his arm is that you dont know how bad it is because youre not a doctor. And thats true of a whole lot of things about whether youre going to get the best Cancer Treatment or anything thats happening in that doctors office. It just seems like what is the evidence that treating it like a normal market good is actually going to get us to where we need to be . Yeah, and most countries they dont treat Health Care Like a normal market good. They treat it like a regulated good. Like something Everyone Needs so you regulate the prices. If you look at other countries and how they use emergency care, the governments typically set the prices for what Emergency Rooms can charge so, you know, i recently wrote about a girl who went to the emergency room because her finger was cut. Her family ends up with a 780 charge. In most other countries that cant happen. The government says health care is important enough that well regulate the price of it so people dont get those surprise bills, but here in the United States weve made the conscious decision not to regulate prices and that leads to some of the really high prices you see in Emergency Rooms. So you did amazing reporter where you went down and talked to folks in kentucky, people who are essentially trump supporters, voted for trump and also in some ways benefit ris of the of obamacare. And theyre a tough constituency for republicans because changes are going to maybe hurt those people. What have you learned from talking to them . I learned that a lot of these people didnt really expect obamacare to be repealed. They heard the rhetoric, they listened to the debates, they knew what donald trump thought, but they thought at the end of the day, you dont take away someones Health Insurance. Health insurance is so important, why would you take it away. Even one of the workers i was shadowing had supported trump. When i asked her about it, she would say there are problems with obamacare. Some of the plans are unaffordable. Trump promised change. I dont think hell repeal it. I think hell just make it better. Now were going to have some sort of rubber hitting the road moment. People are either going to continue to have Health Coverage or not. And one of the things that seems possible to me is the gop, if theyre smart in some ways just call something repeal to make sure that those people still have Health Insurance. I think this will be a big question that i have covering the health care fight is are these people in kentucky going to be proved right . Is it the case that republicans just get too skittish because there are too many people like this . One of the people i talked to who uses obamacare, her husband is waiting for a liver transplant. They really need Health Insurance. Its still an open question if they just take away small parts of it and call it repeal because they might be worried about the backlash like those i met in kentucky. Who dont get the liver transplant theyre waiting for . Who dont get the liver transplant who find theyre out of coverage when they didnt expect thats what this election would lead to. Sarah kliff, thank you very much. Thank you. The push to protect immigrants from soontobe President Trump. But Jeff Sessions. Thing 1 tonight, we return to alabama to the Mayors Office of mobile to hack down an old growth cedar tree from a public park to use as a backdrop for Donald Trumps rally. Were looking at a decision the governor is preparing to make if Donald Trumps pick for attorney general Jeff Sessions is confirmed Governor Robert Bentley would get to appoint a senator to that seat. This weekend he met with a handful of candidates to appoint. We learned about one on the short list, the chief justice of Alabama Supreme Court who was suspended for the remainder of his term for bringing the Judicial Office into disrepute. The disgraced chief justice who could now be u. S. Senator is thing 2. Going to appoint a senator to going to appoint a senator to sessions seat if sessions is confirmed as attorney general. One candidate is roy moore who until recently served as chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. Governor bentley interviewed moore for the potential senate seat this week. Roy moore has quite the resume. Part judge, part right wing crusader. He violated the court order to stop Opening Court sessions with christian prayer. In 2003 he was removed as chief justice for refusing to remove a 5300 pound statue of the Ten Commandments he installed in the state judicial building. Its very heavy. You can see it. After winning reelection moore defied a federal order and refused to allow samesex marriages in his state eventually arguing the supreme courts decision was immoral and tier rannical. He was removed from the bench and paid for the remainder of his term. They found he failed to uphold the integrity of the court and failed to perform the duties. And his conduct brings the Judicial Office into disrepute. Now that guy disgraced judge who brought his Judicial Office into disrepute could be a u. S. Senator. President obama has banned off shore drilling in huge swaths of the antarctic. The move affects 98 of federally owned arctic waters or about 115 million acres of pristine region home to endangered species as well as 3. 8 million acres stretching from norfolk, virginia, to the canadian border. President obama did this through a power given to the president through a 1953 law which has been used by many president s of both parties yet legal challenges are expected. The actions should keep these waters safe from drilling for years to come producing headlines like this one, how barack obama threw a wrench into Donald Trumps energy plans. It highlights the fact that that gentleman you see there is president of the United States and will be until january 20th and there are still things he can do. For instance, 100 advocacy groups are calling on president obama to use his pardon power to shield up to 200,000 legal immigrants with minor criminal records from deportation. This would be squarely within his legal and Constitutional Authority to give them a kind of pardon and take that away. Though it would also be pretty unprecedented. But if theres one thing weve learned from donald trump is dont allow yourself to be too penned in by what has or hasnt been done before. Two u. S. Intelligence officials have confirmed that theyve opened up a man hunt for the man they believe was at the wheel when a truck drove through berlins Christmas Market leaving 12 dead and 48 injured. Isis was quick to claim responsibility. So far this year isis has claimed responsible for at least 42 attacks outside of syria and iraq according to the new york times. These attacks come amid reports that isis continues to lose territory and that seems to indicate despite being squeezed out of places it once controlled isis will find ways to continue to terrorize signaling a real dilemma for counterterrorism officials in the west. My next guest spent years interviewing isis members has a new book called the way of the strangers. Graeme wood joins me now. Lets talk about the truck attack. Part of whats so horrifying about it to me is the simplicity here. Explosives can go wrong. Acquiring them is relatively easy for counterterrorism officials to monitor. A trucks just a truck. And this just seems like a very difficult dilemma for counterterrorism officials. Its impossible. And this has two purposes. One is that it tells isis supporters to use the tools at their disposal, just what you have at hand. You cant stop people from hijacking trucks. Its just impossible to do that. Then psychologically it tells their victims that every truck is a potential terrorist vehicle, a potential weapon that could kill dozens of people. They really do want to sow the fear of every little thing around you including, you know, vehicles, stones, knives that you would get at a kitchen store, all these things can be used and will be. Part of what i think everyone has a hard time getting their head around is when you see such sociopathic evil of driving a truck into people. How could a person get to a place where they can do that and in some ways thats part of the project about what this book has been. What have you learned about that . Yeah, so the people urging others to do this are people youve been eating pizza with, playing soccer with, going to study groups and talking with. You find they have a very intense process of indoctrination. They have to be taught to twist their morals into a way that is just its just not consistent with the way theyve been taught growing up in, say, australia no one is taught its okay to drive a truck you have to learn that. It is a period of brainwashing that isis has really perfected. The propaganda apparatus, it exists both to get people to do things that already believe it and people who are already on the fence, just to slowly turn them into moral zombies who are willing to do things that just, you know, in some cases weekses before they First Encounter this propaganda they would have thought disgusting. Thats part of whats given this organization the sort of potency it has, they dont have to do anything operational, if they can indoctrinate from afar and create these moral zombies who take it upon themselves to do these things, they dont have to go through the much riskier set of transactions to pull off some sort of operational attack. They even tell their soldiers dont even try doing the complicated things. Youll get caught along the way. They have these horrible ghastly manuals of killing. They talk about how much clearance you want to get so that you get the right amount of bodies that will pile up underneath and the right ways of crushing enough people and not having the truck actually stop because of the number of dead. Theres a profile you have of someone who has become a top official in isis who is an american, and you sort of you unmasked him, i think its fair to say. Son of a republican dallas based affluent west point graduate dad. Yes. Thats right. And this guy is its a good example of how a lot of these isis recruits, they are not from backgrounds of poverty. They have all sorts of options available to them. This is a kid who, frankly, he had some daddy issues. His father was a distinguished soldier for some time. And a high school quarterback. Then this kid shows up. He never really was able to succeed in his dads eyes. And now sickly as a kid, pot smoking neerdowell drug adeled dropout kind of. Hes the typical kind of basement dwelling neck bearded computer geek who would never succeed in the eyes of his teachers or his family, but hes achieved a certain kind of leadership role in the Islamic State now. He is now, in this bizarre way, right, he has become a soldier and sort of revere soldier in this death cult. What do you know about how this organization can be dismantled or fought or countered . Theres some bad news, first of all, it cant be fully countered from an ideological perspective. They have people working overtime to explain what isis is all about and to plant that kind of mental virus in people everywhere. That includes americans, british, australians, japanese even i found. So that is not going to be, by itself, successful. What seems to have some success, though, is to demonstrate to these potential recruits that even if they believe these things, the likelihood of their actually achieving the kind of alternate glory that they think they might be able to get in the Islamic State itself, that might be a farfetched dream. That isis is just losing. It is not a cool thing to do. Its not something thats going to succeed. Youre going to die and everybody will forget you. They wont remember you as a hero or a martyr. This is interesting. Rather than saying its not okay to murder a bunch of people in a Christmas Market. Rather to focus on this is actually a group thats not potent, its not impotent, its not shrinking, its on the losing side. Thats actually more powerful. In a way loss begets loss. These are people coming from a background where things havent worked out well for them in their lives. Maybe not because theyre poor but because they havent achieved recognition. If you say by going to isis you will be an embarrassment even further, then that will be much more meaningful thing to say than you will be doing something thats immoral. Thats a message that theyve received and have rejected, but the idea that the prestige wont be there, thats a much more potent kind of deradicalization. Graeme woods feature is in the atlantic. His book is called the way of the strangers, graeme wood. Appreciate it. Thank you. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening. Good evening, chris. Thanks my friend. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Happy wednesday. We have a big show tonight. The director of Homeland Security jeh johnson is here for an interview. Im very much looking forward to that. You know Greta Van Susteren from fox news . Shes actually not at fox anymore, which i think is too bad. I miss greta. I miss her being on tv. Im not being sarcastic. I know everybody thinks we have a terrible rivalry with fox. I really do miss greta. And i ended up thinking about her in todays news, because this was one of my alltime favorite greta moments from when shes with on fox. I know that at least ten isis fighters have been caught coming across the Mexican Border in texas. How do you know that . Because ive asked because