The avoiding talking about ending his Nuclear Program. Sixth, dont try to be friends with kim jongun. He killed his uncle, his halfbrother and hundreds of others. He is a despot. Those people up in canada, by the way, are our friends. And thats hardball for now. Thanks for being with us. Msnbcs special coverage of the summit with Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow starts right now. Two volatile leaders. They have tested each other. Rocket man should have been handled a long time ago. Theyve taunted each other. Kim jongun issued a direct response. I will surely and definitely tame the mentally deranged u. S. Dotard with fire. Now, theyre moments away from meeting for the first time facetoface. I hope the upcoming meeting in singapore represents a bright new future to the world. With the stability of the region and the world on the line i dont think i have to prepare very much. Will their summit bring us closer to peace or peril . This is an msnbc special report. The United States north Korea Nuclear summit. Here now areacow and brian wi and good evening. We are one hour away from a historymaking moment in singapore, the first time a sitting american president has agreed to meet with the head of north korea. By loose definition, were looking at a millennial and a man in his 70s. Both have Nuclear Weapons, though both are from markedly different places. The president has chosen to take a risk this evening and begin with a session alone with kim jongun with only interpreters present, not the usual note takers to record whats being said. More on that later as we look at the president s motorcade now en route. For starters, were also looking at an intelligence gap between the two tonight, and this is what we mean. They know more about our leader than we know about the enigmatic and cloistered north korean dictator. For starter, our president has an unfiltered twitter account. He was back at it early this morning, setting expectations, we believe. Quote, meetings between staff and representatives are going well and quickly, but in the end that Doesnt Matter. We will all know soon whether or not a real deal unlike those of the past can happen. As you see on your screen right now, the president s motorcade is en route to the Cappella Hotel in singapore where President Trump and kim jongun will meet for the first time. During the transition of power, after hour last president ial election, president obama reportedly warned President Elect trump that north korea would be the most urgent problem of his presidency. President trump has chosen to handle that problem by giving north korea something it has sought for decades, a oneonone meeting between their dictato and a sitting u. S. President. No other american president has been willing to do that, but this president said yes, instantly, and without consulting his advisers as soon as kim jongun asked. In early march. Hypothetically, north korea comes out of that meeting say x happen and the u. S. Says oh, no, it didnt, there will be no verifiable way to settle that dispute. So deep breath. Here we go. Here we go is right. Joining us tonight for our special coverage of the north korea summit, nicolle wallace, former White House Communications director for george w. Bush, crucial to what were going to be talking about tonight. And these days, hochris hayes, host of all in. Sumi, director of the Oceanic Affairs at the National Security council under both president s george w. Bush and barack obama. And a korean analyst for cia. Rounding out our team is victor cha, the Trump Former White House candidate for ambassador to south korea, and importantly these days, an msnbc analyst, we are very lick to have the expertise we have at this table, particularly at the very end of this table here. Its a night when we need to be able to parse nuances and understand the subtleties of
what is going on. Well also have to be cognizant of how much were being stage managed. I dont know what youre talk about. Well, there has been interesting reporting and speculation as toe how much is going to be open for discussion at this event, how much may have been previously decided. The way im approaching this, at least the way that im trying to think about this today is to sort of not allow the spectacle and just the weirdness and the unusual nature of the meeting overshadow whats happening here. I dont think we should sugarcoat what the president has done here by agreeing to this meeting. This is north korea is the most repressive dictatorship on earth, arguably. Concentration camps, reeducation camps, deliberate starvation of their own people as punishment. Last february, it with us only last february that this dictator assassinated his own halfbrother with Vx Nerve Agent in a public airport in malaysia. Just in the state of the Union Address this january this year, President Trump hosted a north
korean defector, a man who was an amputee, a man who was tortured in prison, whose father was tortured to death, whose grandmother was starved to death. There is a reason why no u. S. President as ever agreed to give the north korean dictatorship what they have wanted for so long. There is also a reason why they want it. They want the international legitimacy, but they also want to be able to demonstrate to their own people that no matter what they do to their own people, and no matter what that they do with Nuclear Weapons, they have force order manipulated the rest of the world to see this dictatorship as essentially legitimate, and to see kim jongun as a legitimate Head Of State. And that is serious as a heart attack. As weird as this is and almost as incredible as it is as a spectacle, this is a very, very serious line that the president has just crossed. Both men, presumably both motorcades have arrived inside the hotel, but were waiting for confirmation of that. Nicolle wallace is among the better sourced people at this network, especially in this area
were talking about tonight. And coming out of what rachel just said, lets agree to two things. Number one, that this is a regime that craves being relevant, craves being in the conversation. Number two, none of us would be here, they wouldnt be here if there iso Nuclear Weapons in north korea. And number three, you talked about not sugarcoating things, lets not sugarcoat the fact that were all doing this because donald trump wants us to. Donald trump is there because he knew wed be here. Thiss it. This is all hes got this. Is his midterm strategy. This is his get out of sitting down with bob mueller strategy. Two sources texted me. I just looked at my phone on may 25th and may 26th when it was widely reported that talks were off. Talks were never off there was a meeting in the dmz with the americans and north koreans on may 26. The whole thing was trumpian head fake. The whole thing that were being played issing in we have to bake into the cake a little bit tonight. Both that its happening now but whatever its going to be announced tonias if its just been agreed to in that
room. And that its a Foreign Policy exercise. It is also in every way imaginable a political exercise for donald trump. Chris hayes, when youre looking ahead tonight toward what were going to hear, but also to what nicolle is just saying about what has happened already, whose interests are being served . What are you watching for . Thats the question. In a strange way, in the shortterm a coincidence of interest between donald trump and kim jongun. One of the things thats so odd about watching donald trump perform the role as president of the United States is that he does perform it in a monarchial fashion. We saw it at g7. He, donald trump, the individual, the king, was angry at Justin Trudeau. And so he blew up a communique in g7, right . The way we think about the democratic republics undertake Foreign Policy is that there are interests and institutions represented by the Head Of State who is democratically elected. Its not the whim of the head of the state, right . The idea is that we have democratic representation, accountability precisely so that you do not have Foreign Policy
undertaken as a kind of play of a persons eHead Of States personality. There is this bizarre spectacle of watching him come out of the g7 and say i was angry about the way justin talked about me, but i like this kim jongun. And maybe we can work out a deal. You think to yourself, well, no, the United States, we democratic people, we have a say in this. This is sort of accountable system. And to you point, he doesnt run on this. What he said on a Cbs Morning Show he would hope that he would disappear. To your point about democracies, this is not the Foreign Policy that he ran on, that i was going to singapore and elevate kim jongun. Depending on whated, this is what he would like to run on and republicans to run on in november. Stand big in november is our chief correspondent andrea mitchell. Andrea has reported on relations between the u. S. And north korea for every president since reagan. Andrea, what are you looking for tonight . What have we been learning as we head toward the start of this
oneonone . I think your cautions to avoid the circus, the orchestration as much as we can is well taken, because we need to really look at that joint statement. We believe from our sources that they have agreed on a squloynt statement. Thats why Secretary Pompeo came into the Briefing Room i dont know how many hours ago. I was morning i guess our time here and said theyre moving very quickly. And the president is going to leave, we later learned, leave tonight after his News Conference following the summit rather than staying until wednesday. So instead ofaving a second day, things were going so well, flayed agreed among the experts on the framework of something. And what that something is, ive been told is some kind of a commitment from kim jongun to denuclearization. The problem, of course, what does that mean . How do we ever verify what he has, because we dont know what
he has . The estimates vary from 20 to warheads. Were talking about thousands o people in an underground complex. Rachel, youve been there. You know how complex this is. And from all of our reporting, ive been there a couple of times, but n at the Nuclear Weapons sites themselves. This is a very, very mysterious program, and they cheated before kims father, kim jong il cheated in 1994 and fooled bill clinton. In 2002 his father cheated george w. Bush. So all of the experts, all of the cia analysts did not know that he had a Second Program beyond the plutonium of uranium. Thats the kind of thing that we dont know how good he is. Is he resting on his laurels . Is he agreeing not to test . I dont certainly cite that because he already knows he has the longrange missiles that can reach the american homeland. These are just some of the things that victor cha and also
know very well, better than i. Thats what we really have to look at. Are they going to agree to a Peace Agreement between north and south, which would actually get in the way of reunionifying the peninsula, because a Peace Agreement would mean ratifying the existence of north korea. Andrea, dont go far from a microphone and a camera, because well be coming back to you. While youve been talking, we have preset cameras in singapore that all the Television Networks are taking advantage of. We have very little control over the picture were getting, but we have just watched the vast trump motorcade come through this section on their way to the talks. Lets go to our experts here with us in new york, sumi terry and victor cha. Sumi, what would you like to add to what weve heard already as they set the stakes . North korea already has gained. Kim jongun has gained. Look at this. He is running around singapore taking selfies, acting a normal
leader of a normal country. He has gained international standing, legitimacy. Now he is going to sit down with u. S. President , which his father and grandfather had always wanted . As an analyst,e are looking for substance. So President Trump cannot come out of this meeting with some vague statement on kim jongun agreeing to denuclearization. North korea has agreed to denuclearization many times before. What are we talking when we talk denuclearization . We cannot lose sight of our goal which is complete verifiable dismantlement of north Koreas Nuclear program. Even then, agreement as we know we have agreements. They always fell apart over verification and implementation. So we need to have a timeline. They need have a timeline they agree to, a very robust Verification Regime allowing International Inspectors to go into north korea. Can i ask you, when you talk about how much kim jongun has already gained by having the Summit Set Up by being in
singapore, by meeting with the u. S. President , why is that so stark . Why is that so unusual . What makes him so different . What makes north korea so different as a cntry, that it is a remarkable thing that he would be treated essentially as a normal Head Of State . Because north korea, as you know, the most isolated cultish place. Its not really part of the international norm. It doesnt play by that but its President Trump who has agreed to thi meeting with kim jongun where previous president s, this is what kim jong il wanted, kim sun wanted, but now agreeing to sit down we have given him. Why do you think he got to meet with president xi jinping twice . China agreed with him after trump decided to meet with kimberly king. Now he goes around legitimizing his rule, looking like a normal person, like a normal country. And he has nothing to lose now. Regardless of what happens with this summit, he can go back to north korea. He has already weakened the political will in terms of implementing sanctions on the
ground. Well already have reports of China Loosening implementation of sanctions on the ground level. Now he is going t go back. The whole world is now thinking he is a normal person. We talked about human rights violationshe looks like a normal person. Its going to be hard to get back to theaximum pressure policy he had before. Just to be disappear from our view, an Armored Mercedes with flags on the front and no License Plate on the rear. Thats the vehicle carrying kim jongun into the talks. Victor, the imagery, the use of news media is so interesting. There is a chase car behind the motorcycles, but in front of the mercedes with media out the sun roof aiming back at the limousine that would be free media were it our president in this country. Its north korean staterun media because some of these pictures will be turned into postage stamps. Some of these pictures will be turned into posters and handouts
and leaflets darn near forever. Thats right. This is a big meeting for President Trump. This is a huge meeting for the north Korean Leader. They completely control internal commations information. They started putting out information about the United States meeting with pompeos second trip to north korea, and now theyre constructing the narrative. And the narrative is, as rachel said, the world coming to meet the north Korean Leader because he is now a Nuclear Weapons state. And that is the domestic narrative. This is a regime. This guy is 34 years old. He took over when was 28, 29 years old. There has been consistent purging within the north Korean Leadership over these six or seven years. More so than weve seen when the previous leader, his father took power in 1994. So a very high level purging, which suggest theres is internal churns that he has to prove himself to naysayers within his own system. He purged three people just before this meeting, including the defense minister. So they are constructing a
domestic narrative that shows strength, not necessarily compromise and conciliation. To rachels question why are we all paying attention to this, part of this is because as the international community, we value peace. And they are the threat to peace. And if they want to show this f they want to come out a little bit, everybody comes flocking to them. So this isnt the end, right . After this flight will be a Putin Meeting. Im sure a Putin Meeting will drop. Xi jinping said he would reciprocate by coming to north korea. Hell probably come to north korea, get a briefing from chairman kim. The Prime Minister of japan has hinted in his meeting with trump last week that he would like to meet the north Korean Leader too. So there is a lot more paying homage to this reclusive dictator who is now stepping out. Am i right that before this year. Kim jongun had not met with another Head Of State, and now in year he has met with the south korea, with china, with sing more, now with the United States. Soon to be japan. This year, the recognition that he has achieved by this overture from President Donald Trump has already vaulted him into a completely different realm of International Recognition and International Engagement, even before today. Yes. Prior to april, right, prior to april, this leader, who had been in power six or seven years, as far as we know, had never met another foreign leader. Thats incredible. Never stepped outside the country. Within this period of basically a little over a month, he is the toast of the town. Everybody wants to meet him. The only person he has met with was dennis rodman. He was the only person he had met. Who is not a Head Of State. Well, to be fair. Lets define state. Can i ask this question, though. The logic of moon jaein, because we should talk a bit about the south koreans role in this. The philosophy of moon jaein is basically that we should have
diplomatic overtures independent of the Nuclear Issue, right . Essential essentially, to reverse the kind of traditional order which is deal with Nuclear Issue and then have talks and reconciliation. How much is south korea kind of leading this . And why is it not a good argument, basically, to do that . Its a great int. I think th United States and n the past two negotiation, our number one issue has been denuclearization. The key to everything is theyre giving up theiring new clear weapons. What moon jaein and some in the United States have argued, we have to change the environment first. Make them feel secure. Change the overall relationship between the United States and north korea, and then lets try to go for the Nuclear Weapons. Moon jaein, as you said, in december 2017, everybody thought we were going to get pulled into a war with north korea. And he had the olympics coming up in february. And so he was worried about trump, and h was also worried that the north koreans might carry Terrorist Attack during the olympics. He really generated a lot of this diplomacy on his own. He deserves credit for that. But now were at the point he
cannot script. Victor cha, thank you very much for that. In terms of whats going to be happening over the course of this next hour, brian, what are we expecting . We just wanted to bring obviously all of this is fluid. So if we can bring folks what wereexpecting, President Trump has, as we said, arrived at the Cappella Hotel. Thats the backdrop for tonights meeting. Top of the hour, thats 9 00 p. M. Eastern time. The photo op that will in and of itself make history. The handshake between these two that so many are looking to see at 9 15 eastern time. They go into their first and perhaps only bilateral meeting. Again, notable because it will be intimate. Just the two leaders. And their respective translators, not the usual note takers, and sometimes alyst and specialists who sit in on that kind of thing. Then at 10 00 p. M. Eastern time, their aides will be invited to join them. 11 30 eastern time, the two
leaders will have whats being called a working lunch. Remember, its the absolute opposite clock from eastern. So 12 hours plus and minus. Then at 4 00 a. M. Eastern time, the president willpeak to the press. Kim jongun will not be present or the that. In terms of the way this is going to go for us over the course of the evening, i think that we should caution that we think thats going to be the schedule. All of it is we think. We think it is. We should note that andrea just reported on our air that e communique, the agreement that is going to be announced as the outcome of this meeting has already been agreed to. At least as far as nbc news g goes. So that would imply whatever is going to be announced is not going to be something that is negotiated in the room between kim jongun and donald trump. But that also means that we should just i think expect a little wild card in terms of the timing. Choreography is everything at an event like this. And so when the americans
announced theyre leaving 12 hours early, we dont know whether thats just to get that on the record to make the talks seem like theyre progressing. If they cancel tha a agree to stay on and so forth. Victor cha had to leave us to go do something for the Nbc Television network. But look who we are now welcoming into our studio, nick kristof, twotime Pulitzer Prize winner, currently columnist for the new york times. Nick, ive been anxious to traumati to you on this subject, which is so near and dear to you. Your writing on this subject has been fascinating over the past few day. Thank you. Whats on your mind, as they sit down . Well, i mean, i think its pretty clear that there isnt going to be real denuclearization in any sense that we would think of it. And there may be a commitment to it, but after all, there have been commitmentsing back to 1992. There may be talk about a peace treaty. There was talk about a peace treaty in 2005. So i dont think and i think the way this has all been
hastened, suggested there really isnt time to work out major details. So i dont think there is going to be any kind of landmark break agreement. But having said that, i do tnk that its possible that there is a process set in motion that does reduce tensions, that reduces the risk of war. And there may be a freeze on missile tests, or continuing freeze on missile tests, continuing freeze on nuclear tests. There may be destruction of i m icbms. One of the things that disappoints me is that human rights are not going to be raised. I dont think we should condition any deal on human rights. But i sure think dealing with the most totalitarian country in the world that we should raise this and make clear to north korea that modernity is not about getting the mcdonalds franchised or meeting the u. S. President , but its about setting in motion a process of becoming a more normal country where you can have radios where you can move the dial and listen to countries, where if somebody is arrested, you dont take three generations of their family and send them off t a labor camp. Sue mi terry and victor cha were talking about how this summit, the existence of this event that were watching tonight, but also whats led up to it and the way that this has brought new legitimacy and International Engagement for this leader, were talking about how that affects him in terms o his grip on his country, and how it affects his relationship with his own people. How do you see that . I think that i think thats exactly right. Indeed, my impression is that already kim jongun has pitched this domestically as look, the u. S. Has kind of backed down. We had all these nuclear tests. We had these missile tests. We perfected our arsenal and therefore the u. S. Had to back down and the u. S. President had to meet us, something we have been seeking all these years. We have won. I think thats the way they pitched it and in that sense it is a victory. But i would also make the point that it is an awful lot better that the rhetoric were hearing today than what we were hearing a few months ago where there really was some prospect of a war that would be devastating. There is also to me, there is a broader nonproliferation issue here, right, which is what is the lesson here. I mean, iran before they get a Nuclear Weapon enters into a verified program with the United States to essentially for the First Time Since the hostages were taken in the embassy produce some kind of relationship with the u. S. , Bilateral Agreement or multilateral agreement that has verification. North korea gets over the indow. Threshold to actually become a nuclear state, and they get The American President with all the pomp and circumstance. The president calling him honorable. Thats right. The lesson is if youre a sucker and you enter into a nonproliferation agreement, then youre screwed. If youre not a sucker and you
cheat and you manage to get your technology over the threshold, well, then you can kind of call the shots. I think youre giving them too much credit for whatrge w. Bush would have called stategerie. Im not saying its intention. Two very former Senior IntelligenceOfficials Say it Doesnt Matter what happens next. Trump has already legitimized north korea as a coequal to the United States. The minute he sits down. The minute his rear end hits that chair, its over. The game is changed forever. Well, whats the Practical Impact of that . Well, well be in a position to engage in diplomacy with north korea, who could decide on monday to go back to doing what theyre doing in april, threatening to launch, testing icbms. There is no check. There is no vehicle, there is no method for changing their behavior. Yet they have been legitimized by an american president. And you cant undo that. But, you know, i do think that engagement over time has had a much better record than
confrontation. Sure. And its true that there is this issue, as you point out of legitimizing the regime. We went through that with pakistan and india. This is not a new problem we confront now. I would just remind you again that a few months ago, it really looked as if there was some real possibility that one assessment was that 1. 2 Million People would be killed on the first day of a nuclear confrontation. Most of them south koreans and japanese. Just Artillery Range alone. Leave the nukes out of the conversation. Artillery range. People warn that Risk We Shouldnt Delude ourselves in that that risk has evaporated. I dont think north korea will go back to provocation in terms of missile and nuclear testing. Kim jongun is very shrewd. He is going in one direction. After he meets with President Trump, no matter what happens, i dont think they will return to testing. Theyre going to hold up because their game is to buy time to wait out this administration. So i think we should be thinking about that possibility. Because its hard for us to react when north korea acts better. Its easier to act when they do provocations. In normal times, how does a president make the Human Rights Argument sitting across from kim jongun at this meeting . In reading your last column i thought we could relay to the audience how its done in normal times. In 2007, Madeleine Albright went to pyongyang. He iought the Assistant Secretary for human rights to the table. As a presence. And i think that its i think it would be dangerous to condition any deal on, okay, you have to open up your labor camps you have to do this, that to the red cross. I dont think that would be useful. I sure think its worth the u. S. Side pointing out, look, if you want to become respected around the world, then you can have 100,000 people in labor camps. You cant send three generations of people to these camps. You cant ban any kind of outside information. Yo cant when people are returned from china, you cant immediately send them off to camps, in some cases strung together with wire connected. You to allow some freedom of religion. You have to have some progress. And our japanese allies, theyve had so many people kidnapped by the north koreans. Theyre begging us to raise these issues, and megumi yak cota, 13 years old, kidnapped along the coast as she was walking home from school. How can we not raise that issue and tell north korea, look, if you want to improve relations, if you want to help solve this issue, then lets tell us what happened to megumi. In raising the issue of japan and south korea both here, obviously they are close allies
of ours. Theyre also countries to which we are formally bound in terms of defending them and protecting them, and thats thats been a pillar on which not only our relations, but International Relations in that part of the world are based. The japanese government wanted to approach this in aoint way with the United States, and the United States appears to have not beennterested in doing that. How much damage has the president done to our relationship with those close allies by pursuing this in this way . Well, Prime Minister abe, he invested so much in this relationship with President Trump. And then he suddenly realized that it got him nowhere. Everything was transactional, and at the moment he doesnt have anything to offer President Trump so he is just out in the cold. I think hes hes been kind of horrified by that. I think its a little different with south korea. I do think that there you have a lieder who has really quite
successfully manipulated President Trump. Oh, President Trump, your leadership has made this all happen, and nobel peace prize. I think other people have seen that president moon has been so effective at that, and other leaders try to emulate that model. President moon has done a masterful job in orchestrating this on both sides. Chris hayes, that assumes our president is manipulatable somehow. I sometimes cant tell if his super power is that everyone thinks theyre not going to be the mark and he is the mark. He does have a what he is able to do is not care enough to get through every successive interaction. And other people are burdened by caring. Shinzo abe. Other people are burdened by a set of conceptions of their fidelity or duties to the state they represent. He is kind of unburdened by
that. I dont think anyone thinks donald trump cares in in some deep way as a person like the substance of the matter. Is there verified denuclearization. Is there a move towards when in the state of the Union Address, there is this ode to human rights in north korea. And then all of the sudden then they disappear, or we care about human rights in iran, but all of the sudden were willing to meet with a country. Ive been in iran. Ive been arrested in iran. North korea just a different order of magnitude. Were talking things that werent put on the table. Just look at whats on the table. Theyre not even set up for success for what they as an administration put on the table. Pompeo did a Press Conference where what he put on the table as a definition of success is
the complete and verifiable denuclearization of the korean peninsula. Donald trump went up 15 minutes later, i just want to have a good hang. Right. My touch, my feel. Within hours that. Had different expectations set for the meeting. So youre talking about something that was never put on the table by the Trump Administration. But donald trump is also unburdened by the things that the men and women around him have promised publicly, the things they testified to in front of congress, whether its about russia or north korea. He is not only unburdened by an outcome because he doesnt understand any of them or understand any other issues that should be on the table, he is unburdened by his own appointees have promised on tv three hours earlier. But i would make the point that okay, were not going to get real denuclearization any time soon. Were not going to get a deal that is halfway as good as the iran deal. By those standards, this is going to fa. But those arent the only standards to judge what comes out. Im just saying as an administration, they have today
put out two very different benchmarks for success. Yeah. I guess im just apprehensive that progressives are having seen the way conservatives and republicans responded to the iran deal are going to respond in kind to an incomplete, imperfect although i think progressives are hardwired to think talking is better. To me, its this really deeper question about can you take if the president of the United States donald trump today said he wanted he was going to get behind single payer, you would say this is going to end in tears. Yes, in the abstract, sure. In abstract. But do i want this individual to carry out this thing . The answer would be you would be totally rational to be skeptical about that. Absolutely. I think thats more the situation people find themes. Sue mi terry, nick chris of
the kristof, were going to fit in our first eak. We saw some rental car looking vance come in. That was the very e of the motorcade. We have every reason to believe that all the vehicles are where theyre supposed to be. There i a carport. There is a portico with a fan and a red carpet. So well watch. This you watch what we put out there. Is two gentlemen near the carport. Who are not famous people. And well come blaze out of this commercial break should anything happen otherwise. Our live continues on the other side. Does this map show the
peninsula trail . You wont find that on a map. Ill take you there. Take this left. If you listen real hard you can hear the whales. Oop. You hear that . vo our Subaru Outback lets us see the world. Sometimes in ways we never imagined. Looking for a hotel that fits. Whoooo. Your budget . Tripadvisor now searches over. 200 sites to find you the. Hotel you want at the lowest price. Grazi, gino find a price that fits. Tripadvisor. Center. Again, this is the only news we have on this subject. It is from the president s twitter feed. Joining us now from singapore is nbc News White House correspondent peter alexander, who is looking into what we know here. Peter, what can you tell us . Well, rachel, obviously the president just breaking this news on his twitter as he awaits this oneonone with kim jongun. We last saw larry kudlow back in washington as he was doing interviews following the g7. Kudlow, among others was defending the president in this latest feud with americas ally, particularly its neighbor to the north, canada, saying the president had to lash out at Justin Trudeau because he couldnt appear weak in advance of his meeting here with kim jongun. He was there by the president s side, now in an iconic photo of this division that exists between the u. S. And its allies. Standing alongside Angela Merkel and others as the pattasat
stonefaced a as they pssed him in what was a contentious visit. Larry kudlow joined the president s team only a matter of months ago. He was one person, like many of the others the president has invited in who the president liked. He viewed him as someone who spoke his language. He was a contemporary, roughly the same age, a Friend Dating back to kudlows days on cnbc. He of course is a friend of this network, having served for cnbc as a commentator and an analyst for many years. Again, the president breaking this news that larry kudlow had a heart attack, that he is being treated at walter reed right w. He was never scheduled to be a part of the delegation here. So the last time we saw him publicly was after he wrapped up that conversation between the president and his allies at the g7. Back to you, rachel. Thank you. Peter alexander, correspondent for nbc news. The president is breaking this news. We do not have an additional source on this. But the president saying that larry kudlow who is white house chief economic adviser has suffered a heart attack and is now at walter reed medical
center. Well dont have any Additional Information about the seriousness of this incident or mr. Kudlows condition. But obviously a lot of concern for both of us in the news biz who know him from this world, but also for everybodyeceiving this news tonight. This also means, no to put too fine a point on it, that in the moments prior to shaking the hand of kim jongun, the president tweeted out this news about his longtime friend and now aide larry kudlow. This also means that there are perhaps, god forbid, kudlow Family Members who did not know this news until it showed up on the twitter feed of donald trump. Peter is right. Larry kudlow has been known to a lot of us for a lot of years. He is a man who dealt with addiction very publicly, very forthrightly, rebuilt his life. He was an economic official going back to the reagan years. So obviously thoughts are with
larry kudlow tonight. Weve been joined by two gentlemen here in new york, Chris Matthews is with us having just gotten off the air with tonights edition of hardball, and ben rhodes is with us. Ben joins us, as they say, from the Obama Administration. Former deputy National Security adviser to president barack obama. If youve been on an amazon or a bricks and mortar bookstore the last couple days you saw his new book that just came on to the market. Both of them always have books. A lot of administrations represented here have. You noticed . Yeah, thatstrue. Let me ask you. Weve been talking a lot thus far this hour about the decision to hold this summit. Not necessarily what were going to learn as the outcome of the summit. Well find out over the course of the evening. How did that what was the process around deciding things like this . The Obama Administration . Who do you decide to say yes to when they ask for a meeting with the president of the United States, and how do you decide . You look from opening, rachel. With cuba we saw an opening and reached out to the cubans to see if they wanted to establish an open channel. But i met with raul castro ayson 20 times before we put obama in the room with raul castro. It took a lot of prep work, well over a year or two. What iouthis, what i feel happened here is that they were on a road to conflict. President moon in south korea was very uneasy with that. He took the initiative. He brought that back to the white house. But then trump kind of took this out of the hands of the south koreans and accelerated this process to get to this summit. Normally you would have much longer lead time to develop the agenda, to figure out, as nicolle was saying, what are we trying to achthe meeting before we put the president in the room, how are we going to be positioned coming out of this. The south koreans took the initiative. Trump wanted the show and here we all are. It wasnt just the south koreans. He literally took the south koreans out of chairman
mcmasters office. If you go back to how it actually happen it was a meeting that trump wasnt even supposed to participate it in. It have been someone with your job doing the groundwork. Its still not clear what the south koreans were proposing, they were probably coming to say kim is open to talking which is north koreans have always been open to doing. Trump short circuits that thing, has it announced that night. Opens the door to the lower press offi i believe there was a mueller story in the news that day. It doesnt feel like foreign po puthe way. That is not how you or we would have done this, right . You would have taken a lot of time just to announce this summit. I just want to set back here for a second. Everybody is going to be focused on the show tonight. The rest of the world is going to be rearranging itself to this event. And theyre looking at a couple of things. Theyre lookingthe fact that were coming into this event, having just had a fight with all of our closest allies in the world, unprecedented rupture in
the atlantic alliance. A big performative fight. Substantive and performative. There is substantive and vitriol from President Trump. If im sitting there in south korea and thinking this is the ally, the United States that i rely on for my survival, are you really going to trust that donald trump is a reliable partner, that he is going to follow through not onlyn whatever he says to kim jongun, but on the surt assurances we give to them . Frankly, i see it as reordering in the world over the next couple years rooted in some of the things see we saw this week, not just this summit, but what we saw at the g7. Can we talk about how this is different than a normal process. What is the risk of not having a note taker in the room . Whats the risk of the President Bragging that he hasnt prepared and we have no reason to disbelieve himn that. It seems like he hasnt prepared. Obviously, its strange. Its a departure. But is it dangerous, or is it
just odd . Well, there are a few places i could go here. One, you always have a note taker for a simple reason. Even when obama was alone in the room whether with whoever it might have been, putin, anybody else. Reason y a note taker is there is clarity on what was agreed to and what wasnt. There is a huge risk that donald trump and kim jongun could walk out of that discussion with very different ideas of what they lad just talked about or what they just agreed to. The note taker is the that can read out the rest of the u. S. Government on what happened. Right now the only person who will know what was discussed in that room was donald trump. Will he tell his own government about what was discussed . Will his representation of what was discussed accurate or will he try to make himself look better in his readout to his own team. En, do interpreters ever play a dual role. In terms of direct recall of the Subject Matter when think they get out of the room . No. You would not want to put an interpreter in that position. Their position is to be thinking
only about one thing, how am i translating these words are that are spoken. Theyre not trained. Its not their position, their job to Thinking Howm i going to read out the National Security adviser and the Secretary Of State over what was discussed. So the concern here is that donald trump and kim jongun probably not the two most trustworthy people in the world are the only people who are going to know what is discussed in this, besides the interpreters. And that is thats a t whole reason why you always have somebody. I have been assuming that the interpreters had a dual role. I had been assuming that the interpreter is some master spy. Lets talk about definitions. Ive been studying on this there is a problem of specificity here. Which we say denuclearization of the peninsula. And what kim means by that is we get rid of our troops. Weve got to get rid of the nuclear umbrella, the trip wire at the 38th parallel. We take out the works, leaving south korea exposed to their artillery, to their firepower. And who won that one . We just lost. Now does trump know, do you think, ben, when they say denuclearization, they mean we get out, we remove the umbrella from japan, we remove the umlarom south korea, we get our troops out . Thats what im worried about. Im talking about ending the state of war between the two countries. The minute you Start Talking like that tonight in the first magic minute, im thinking wait a minute, theyre talking about us leaving. No matter what else theyre talking about, theyre not talking about nuclear. Theyre saying were going to have a peace treaty between north and south. And then youre going to leave and were going to denuclearization the peninsula. In other words, youre taking everything youve got out. And at some point down the road we may stop developing our Nuclear Program which were going to keep ready to do, and theyre going to win. The two things, as has been said, theyve committed to Denuclear Rise time and again in the past. If they commit to Denuclear Rise which trump will lift up, it doesnt mean anything until we can get on the ground and see that theyre following a road map to denuclearize. Will they give us a list of their weapons tonight . Not just a list. Well need a list and
international inspections. Well need to have people to verify this. The other thing is, chris, trump has been saying for years why do we have troops in south korea . Why do we have troops in japan. There is a track record of him saying we shouldnt provide the Security Guarantee here. One of the winners out this could be china. Theyre sitting there thinking i would like nothing more than to have the United States pull back from northeast asia. We want to fill that void. Theyre already filling it. Theyre making their own islands. Yes. People feel like we are backing out now, and the chinese are moving in. The one exception to that has generally been our Treaty Allies in south korea and japan. If there is any kind of i think that were putting troops in that region, thats going to be game changer in how people look at geopolitics in asia. The president might not even see it as a concession. He is too willing to give away the troop card. This is what im definitely afraid of, this is going to put
that on the table not even as a concession because he actually doesnt think we need the troops there. He has done it before. We had a meeting with Vladimir Putin and a russian translator. And we were left with a he saidhe put the russian translator in the position of going out and telling the press i mean, trump has done this before. In terms of what else the president might see as a not too valuable thing that would be okay to give away, what about this issue of a peace treaty . The north korea and South Korea Split in 1948. Theres cessation of hostiliti in 1953 but we dont have a peace treaty. Technically hostiliti a still ongoing, which seems insane and is like a weird way to think about it. What would it be substantively to move toward a peace treaty, to move toward that sort of an agreement . Well, for north korea what it would mean is a diminution of our presence in the korean peninsula. That would start with us ceasing
certain Military Exercises in the region. It would then move to us moving certain Military Hardware out of the region. Sxumtly it would get at this question of whether there should be u. S. Troops in south korea. Because technically theyre there as part of the arrangement where were providing to it their security given that there is no Peace Agreement. So for the north koreans, look, be very clear as youre talking about, it im a progressive, i like like talking better than fighting. But my worry here is hes going to put stuff on the table you that shouldnt put at the beginning of the process. The north koreans want a nuclear deterrent. They want international legitimacy. They want sanctions relief. And they want less u. S. Military presence in asia. And Donald Trumps already talked about wanting to give all four of those things. North koreans dont need to ask for reduction of troops. All they have to ask for is a peace treaty because it sounds good. It sounds historic. Whod argue against ending the war . Except the problem is it removes the legal justification thats right. And other kinds of political rationale for us having our troops in south korea. So it will come up. South koreans will later ask, we
dont have war anymore. Even americans might say why do we have our troops in south korea, didnt we end the war, lets bring the boys home. That really just undercuts the rationale for our troop presence. Thats the giveaway, isnt it . If they push in that direction in the first couple hours thats what hes pushing for. Thats what hes saying by saying we need regime security. And the japanese are very scared of that. Another one of our veteran analysts has joined us, thats jeremy bash, former Chief Of Staff at cia, former Chief Of Staff at pentagon. So his bona fides are clear and on point for this conversation. Jeremy, if youve been listening to the conversation, then you know several people have made the point that this is before the first hand shaikh, before the first photograph of the two together victory north korea. A summit is not an accomplishment for The American President , brian. It is a major accomplishment for kim jong un. In fact, the spectacle of seeing the american flags along with the dprk flags as the backdrop for that handshake is really jarring actually to see, to
witness. In fact, i would say its somewhat disgusting. It is actually a debasement of the american flag. This is a despotic regime that murders its own citizens. And were putting him on the same stage as The American President. Now, hopefu it will serve a larger purpose. Which is to ensure security for american interests and our allies on the peninsula. And obviously you see there the arrival. Carrying his Briefing Book. Kim jong un getting out of his Armored Mercedes. And going into the older portion of this building. And well see if we have other cameras to switch to after his vehicle clears. Jeremy, go ahead. Hes arrived on Sentosa Island at the hotel resort where the meeting it will take place. And as i was saying, the mere fact that hell be standing at that shot that you see on your screen there alongside The American President is a major accomplishment for the north korean dictator. We should not lose sight of the fact. The second thing is this has been alluded to on the panel before, is north korea has according to published reports 60 Nuclear Weapons. They have a Plutonium Processing Facility at yongbyon. They have probably a very sophisticated Uranium Enrichment Program in which they are spinning cascades, centrifuges in which they are building additional capability to develop Nuclear Weapons through that path. They have longrange intercontinental ballistic muscles which can hit chicago and denver. The only yard chic, brian, which which we can measure success of this entire process is not whatever statement comes out tonight. Its whether those missiles, those weapons, those Nuclear Faciti are removed and the danger is removed the threat to the United States and our allies. Thats the only metric upon which we can measure whether this is at all successful. Jeremy, let me ask you another math question, and that is this. Take nukes out of the conversation. Seoul is a metropolitan area give or take 35 miles from the border. How many Artillery Tubes are embedded in those mountains
aimed at seoul and its surrounding suburban area . Probably 50,000 to 100,000. Theres no antirocket Artillery Mortar System in the wor t could defend the population of seoul from an onslaught from north korea. One of the concerns weve had is when the Trump Administration was talking publicly about a potential first strike, a first strike against north korea, the concern of course was that north korea would retaliate not necessarily against the United States but against seoul. And now you see the additional this is tape playback. The playback of the arrival of kim jong un at the hotel there as he enters the building and gets ready for his historic meeting with President Trump. As someone recently said, that the Mercedes Limousine has been the favorite of dictators and spots going back decades around the world. You just see the no License Plate thing and it just puts a little shiver down your spine. You know what im saying . Thatll get you pulled over in new york. Jeremy, i had one question for you about previous
experience with the north koreans and talks. Obviously, no u. S. President has ever talked to a north korean dictator before. Madeleinelbright was there i 20 and weve had former president jimmy carter there. Weve had former president bill clinton there. Theres been different talks around Hostage Releases and other sorts of things. When north koreans in the past have cheated on disarmament deals, when they cheated in 1994, when they cheated in 2002, when they reneged on deals, did we learn anything from that . Is there anything thats more sophisticated about our interactions and negotiations with them now because of that previous experience of them playing previous u. S. Administrations . Yes, weve learned many things, rachel. There was a very significant incident in the early 2000s in which during one the engagements with the north koreans they acknowledged the fact that they had a Uranium Enrichment Path to a bomb in additiono the plutonium path and of course once the sixparty talks broke down of course in 2006 north korea detonated its First Nuclear test and since then
weve seen six nuclear tests. Last summer we were probably at the height of provocation with those two overflights of japan, bm he is tests and other nuclear tests. They have made great progress. And i think its fair to say one of the reasons why kim jong un believes he has the standing, the ability to stand next to The American President at this hour is because he has achieved a level of nuclear deterrent, that hes effectively achieved his aims in the region and now hes able to trade away a little of that deterrent for a Security Guarantee. And i agree with the earlier panelist who noted that if we come outonight with a statement about a peace treaty that is precisely what kim jong un wants. And President Trump wants it because theres no such thing as nobel denuclearization prize. Theres only a nobel peace prize. I just spotted the still photographer william mcnamee. That would indicate that the white house Still Press Pool is there. So we have journalists from the United States and staterun
media from north korea. We are expecting its interesting, politics editor here at nbc news was noting earlier this hour that at the g7, which President Trump has just come from in canada, he was late to everything at the g7, all the different meetings. This seems to be rolling out quite punctually this evening. Which is why were watching the clock along with the live feeds. Weve seen kim jong un arrive to emerge unsmiling from that big black Mercedes Limousine. Holding a Briefing Book and walking straight into the venue. We are expecting President Trump momentarily and we are expecting a handshake, and that moment will be the culmination of decades of effort by the north korean regime, by kim jong un, by his father and by his father before him, in terms of trying to achieve this as the ultimate imprimatur of international legitimacy. President trump has bestowed that already. And now were about to see it
made manifest as the president arrives. Here is the president s limousine now coming up to that same entrance where we saw kim jong un dropped off by comparison this is the Brand New Cadillac limousine that has been airlifted halfway around the world. Lets see if we have any audio from this, and otherwise well just take in the pictures of the president s arrival