Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20191119

All in starts right now. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes. We are one week into impeachment hearings. Weve had two days of hearings last week. We have three this week. Just in the last 72 hours, weve gotten a lot of information. One basic top line is clear and it is this. Things are not great for the president right now. In fact it literally was not a great weekend for the president at all. He was rushed to Walter Reed Hospital on saturday. Alongside the white house physician. He spent more than two hours at the hospital. It was not a planned trip. It was nowhere on his public schedule that day. The white house is saying the president just popped over to the hospital to get a headstart on his annual physical exam for 2020, which seems weird. But that happened over the weekend. Generally it feels like from the very moment that trumps call notes from that infamous call from the ukrainian president were released, things have only really moved in one direction, in terms of the picture of the facts. Every news story only adds further details of the scope and the insidiousness of the president s shadow operation to extort ukraine into helping him win reelection. Right before our show on friday, we learned that a state Department Official told congress that he overheard a phone conversation where the president himself asked the u. S. Ambassador to the eu, Gordon Sondland, if the ukrainian president was, goquote, gonna d the investigation. He also testified after the phone call sondland agreed, quote, the president did not give an s about ukraine. He also learned more about how long ago the ukraine scheme was hatched. Cnn reports that at the White House Hannukah Party last year, Rudy Giulianis indicted associates, lev parnas and igor fruman, met with just President Trump and according to the report the conversation turned to ukraine. Parnas said that the big guy, as he sometimes referred to the president in conversation, talked about tasking him and fruman with what parnas described as a secret mission, to pressure the Ukrainian Government to investigate joe biden and his son. A secret mission to pressure the Ukrainian Government to meddle in the u. S. Election against his political rival. And then on saturday, an official from the office of management and budget, a career civil servant, a guy named mark sandy told congress in behind closed doors testimony that he was so concerned about the white house freezing that military aid to ukraine that he raised questions to the ombs general counsel about whether the move violated the congressional budget and impoundment control act of 1974. Over the weekend we also got the deposition transcripts of Vice President pences russia advisor, Jennifer Williams. She was actually on the july 25th call with trump and the ukrainian president. She testified that trumps talk about investigations, quote, struck me as unusual and inappropriate. The president over the weekend attacked her on twitter, saying she should, quote, read the transcript and calling her a never trumper. Heres the thing, Jennifer Williams does not need to read the transcript, she listened to the call as it happened in realtime. Its also weird and laughable to call her a never trumper seeing as how she works in the white house now. She was the hand picked person to work on the Vice President s staff, a detailee from the state department. Now, williams has a key role this week and he is one of the people who will be testifying tomorrow. Thats at 9 30 in the morning. Shell be there alongside Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman who was also on the president s phone call and was so alarmed by what he heard that he immediately reported it to the National Security councils top lawyer. So tune in tomorrow. There will be three days of hearings this week. By all counts, there will be tens of millions of americans watching. New abc poll shows 58 of americans say theyre following the hearings very closely or somewhat closely. The main idea of the hearings, at least from the democrats perspective, does seem to be getting through. 70 think President Trumps request to a foreign leader to investigate his political rival was wrong. But its not just polling that shows this. There are real world political events that have happened the last few weeks since impeachment started, none of which have been particularly encouraging for the president. It was just two weeks ago that trump went down to kentucky the night before the election for governor and the very next day the democratic challenger won in a state that trump had carried by 22 points. Then last week same play. Trump goes down to louisiana, a state that he won by 20 points, to support the republican challenger for governor and it was clear that that kentucky loss was still on trumps mind. And headlines the next day, trump took a loss. I lift him up a lot. So trump took a loss. So youve got to give me a big win, please, okay . Okay . So in President Trumps view, the election is a test of his Political Capital and power. He went down there to tell everyone that explicitly and then democratic Governor John Bel Edwards was reelected just days later. Its not crazy to think that impeachment might have had some kind of prorepublican backlash effect in red states, but that is not what is happening. The president went to kentucky and louisiana in backtoback weeks to explicitly say, hey, electorate, this is a test of impeachment. Please send the message you are against it. Both times the message the electorate sent back was just the opposite. Joining me now is one of the members of congress who will be conducting the public hearings, democratic congressman peter welsh of vermont, a member of the house intelligence committee. My sense strongly from the reporting ive done and others have done is that the Democratic Caucus has come to the conclusion to start this inquiry on the merits and on the facts, in some ways against some political inclinations. But obviously Public Opinion does matter here. How do you think of the job that you have in terms of the public and what you want had public to know or find out or learn over the course of these public hearings . Well, youre right. Weve got to be laser focused on what is the impeachable conduct. And the impeachable conduct obviously revolves around the deal the president made where in exchange for a white house meeting and him releasing 400 million or so in military aid, the ukrainian president would conduct investigations on the bidens, dig up dirt for the benefit of his political campaign. Thats the question. And our effort is to try to just lay that out in as sterile a fashion as possible. Just the facts, maam. And i think the committee has been doing that. Its funny you use the adjective sterile there because one of the arguments ive seen republicans and the president and his campaign try to attack the hearings with is that they are boring. What is your response to that argument . Well, it really is of constitutional significance. If the best defense you have is that the crime that it appears the president may have committed is boring, thats not one i think thats particularly persuasive in Public Opinion. But lets talk about the republican defenses. The one thing they havent talked about at all are the merits. You know, the First Defense was i didnt do it. The second defense was Mick Mulvaney, so what if i did. And the third defense is that the hearings are rigged and a sham process and that its boring. But not a single defense has been offered on the merits of what the president asked for in that favor. So i think thats an indication of how weak that is. The president has a well earned reputation for telling fibs. Some would say lies. And now were seeing a lot of defense of all of those things the president said. I saw the president today making some noises, i think flatly disingenuous about how he would testify before the hearings. I dont really credit that at all. I think rightly. But it did reminding me of thi exchange that you had with congressman jordan about who should be coming before this committee. I want you to take a sglichb w listen. Now, there is one witness, one witness they wont bring in front of us and wont bring inspect front of the American People and thats the guy who started it all. I say to my colleague, id be glad to have the person who started it all come in and testify, President Trump is welcome to take a seat right there. Its more than President Trump too. I mean there are many people, Mick Mulvaney comes to mindi, wo you would like to talk to around the president and his associates who they are saying you cannot speak to. Thats right. That was a serious point in my response to mr. Jordan. The president has stonewalled. He has not provided any documents. Hes not provided any witnesses. And in fact the brave people who have come forward like ambassador yovanovitch, she did so in defiance of a directive from the state department and from the president. She responded to a lawful subpoena. So its only these brave folks who are serving in the state department, in the intelligence agencies and Defense Department that are coming forward. So the president has all of the information that he claims would be exculpatory supposedly but doesnt present it. Its obviously bogus him offering to testify, its his usual bluster. He should be providing the information that president s like nixon and clinton did. The state department has all sorts of documents and notes that they are not relinquishing which i think everyone would be interested in seeing. Congressman, thank you very much. Thank you. Joining me now, two people who have been paying close attention to the impeachment investigation. Erin banko, National Security reporter for the daily beast and harry litman, a former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Hes now the host of the talking feds podcast. Erin, let me start with you. It is remarkable, in some ways we learn lots of new little bits of granular information every day, it seems every hour, and then also the big picture remains unchanged from the time that we got the phone call, which is what the plot was because it was happening there right in front of everyone. Youve got new reporting on this infamous meeting at the white house where Gordon Sondland was essentially it sounds like just flatout telling the ukrainians you have to give us these investigations or you dont get the aid. Yeah. The meeting, as one source put it to us, sort of went off the rails as they put it. So as you remember, this july 10th meeting was sort of broken up into two separate parts. There was the first meeting that the ukrainians had with former National Security advisor john bolton and then theres the second meeting that happens in the war room with sondland leads the ukrainians into this separate room and begins making all sorts of demands. The people we talked to said the first meeting between john bolton and the ukrainians went quite well. It was professional. The ukrainians came with a plan. This is how we want to move forward with the u. S. It was only when sondland directed people back into the war room that things started to unravel. He starts raising his voice and making demands about you must open these investigations if you want a white house visit, making a lot of people in the room quite uncomfortable. Harry, one theme here, it relates to that cnn reporting about lev parnasy goi y igor andy igorfruman. The people who are not the president s henchmen seem unanimously horrified by what is happening and compelled to tell the public an congress about it. Too many people and too long a span, as you say. This is the big contrast with mueller where they could circle the wagons because its all the sort of loyalists. This actually pushed out of the way some of the state Department Career professionals who are now coming back with a vengeance. But we know from the most recent testimony, its a course of conduct starting from zelenskys inauguration and going into september. Its not just the phone call. I mean in Broad Strokes you have morrison and williams confirming the details of the call. And then the dramatic centerpiece i think of the whole hearings is going to be tuesday and wednesday, volker and sondland. Each of them is in very hot water and probably lied to congress. Will they try to take the fifth, will they point at each other, what will they do with guiliani . Everything else is confirming. So we want all the facts, thats great. And well have this electric moment where the people who really have been closest to trump, especially sondland, might be pressed to unbearable pressure. This is a great point, erin. Volke rech volker and sondland are two of the three amigos, the third being rick perry. They come very early in these depositions and are on the hook for what they said and they are the most amenable to being tools for the president to carry off the plot. Volker will come before the committee tomorrow. To harrys point, hes already in a little hot water in terms of what he said so far, right . Thats exactly right. It will be really interesting to see how volker comes in front of the committee, what he says, whether or not he points to sondland. As weve seen over the past week or so, you know, a lot of reporting has come out on sondland. All sort of signs point to sondland as especially as the person who had direct communication with President Trump. I think thats really important to remember. As far as we know, volker did not. So the two will have drastically different kind of testimonies and hearings. It will be really interesting to see who points to many who. We already saw that sondland, especially in his opening testimony, has tried to distance himself from the ukraine portfolio saying it was only a piece of what i did and it really wasnt all that poimportt to me. Volker is very different. This is all i did. Ukraine was sort of like my baby. I tried to shepherd that policy in and really believed in it. Then we see sondland come in and sort of throw knives into that policy and change things around a bit. The other key point about volker tomorrow who will be in the afternoon, last week we heard from three witnesses, none of whom had direct interaction with rudy giuliani. He was a spectural presence that haunted their lives. Volker on the other hand we know has direct contact. Its the first time someone who is pulled into the irregular channel, as bill taylor famously talked about it, will be sworn in. Yeah, thats exactly right. Volker really can bury guiliani and sondland really can bury trump himself. But volker made five or six statements in his deposition that are just whoppers, starting with he doesnt know anything about biden and burisma. The meeting that erin referred, to the famous july 10th, oh, he said it was just a sort of boring, nothing happened. He is really on the hot seat for that one. So its not simply that he can point to guiliani, but that he has to himself make a strategic decision about which way hes going to go. Theres a lot of suspense about those hearings this week. I have no idea how any of that is going to go. Erin banco and harry litman, thank you both. Next, renewed questions about how much acting cheeief o staff Mick Mulvaney knows. The latest in two minutes. Th e telast in two minutes. T pre. T about geico making it easy to switch and save hundreds . Oh yeah, sure. Um. You dont know my name, do you . laughs nervously of course i know your name. I just get you mixed up with the other guy. Whats his name . Whats your name . Switch to geico®. You could save 15 or more on Car Insurance. Could you just tell me . I want this to be over. What are you doing back there, junior . Since were obviously lost, im rescheduling my Xfinity Customer Service appointment. Ah, relax. I got this. Which gps are you using anyway . A Little Something called instinct. Been using it for years. Yeah, thats what im afraid of. He knows exactly where were going. My whole body is a compass. Oh boy. The my account app makes todays Xfinity Customer Service simple, easy, awesome. Not my thing. As i said before, we already know a ton about the Trump Administrations ukraine scheme. In fact everything we are finding out i think the democrats would say is kind of icing on the impeachment cake. Theres one thing we still have some questions about, which is just the exact justification and the mechanics of that hold on the nearly 400 million of congressionally mandated military aid to ukraine which is a key part of this entire scheme. One person who can shed light on that is the acting chief of staff director of budget, Mick Mulvaney who said there was a quid pro quo but has refused to testify. The wall street journal furthers the case that mulvaney is directly implicated. The president s appointment, the legendary Gordon Sondland, looped mulvaney in my email. On july 19th, a day before the president was scheduled to speak to the ukrainian president , mr. Sondland emailed a group of officials, including mr. Mulvaney and Energy Secretary rick perry. Here is what he wrote in that email. Quote, i talked to the president of ukraine just now. He is prepared to receive the president s call. Will assure him that he intends to run a fully transparent investigation and will turn over every stone. Mr. Mulvaney responded i asked the National Security council set it up for tomorrow. Its important to remember the military aid for ukraine is the big cudgel. He writes with that trump is surrounded. Mulvaney is central in the whole thing because hes also been subpoenaed, because he tried to join a court case to rule whether he should come out there and seems to have in some ways the most direct exposure for people not named donald trump or rudy giuliani. Theres one more reason why mulvaney is such an interesting figure here. Its that trump has been talking to aides, exploring the possibility of firing him. Hes been asking whether mulvaney is really up to the job and can help weather this impeachment crisis. So trump has been told, you know, maybe this is not the right time, mulvaney knows so much that you dont necessarily want to alienate him and make an enemy of him. So for many reasons, mulvaney is really at the center of this storm. Thats a point here that i think is worthwhile to note. From the point of view of the courts and precedent about what can and cannot be subpoenaed by congress, there is quite a distinction between active and former members in terms of the assertions the executive might make on them. Mulvaney being out of a job would render his ability to contest weaken, right . Thats an excellent point. The white house has pretty much stonewalled this entire investigation. One thing they have said is no account acting official can testify because those conversations that person would have had with trump would be privileged. But if that privilege is weakened, if the person is no longer working in the building, is no longer in the west wing, the white houses hold and control over that official is ate atenuated. Lyndon johnson said we dont want inside outside the tent peeing in, we want somebody inside peeing out. Mulvaney is not the only one. One of the crazy things here and i think you wonder how much of this was on purpose and how much was a byproduct of everyone attending to the president s obsessions. But you have pompeo, mulvaney and Vice President pence and rick perry, all of whom appear to be in some way, shape or form connected to the fundamental thrust of the attempt to extort ukraine here. Yeah. You have its all the president s men. There are people who are acting at the behest of the president. So congressman welch, who spoke to you earlier, i think had it right. The person really at the origin of this is donald trump, who has, i guess, suggested that he might be willing to testify, although ill believe that when i see it. Weve got some reporting about mr. Mark sandy, who gave a deposition on saturday. Its the first time someone from omb has testified. That of course is one of the offices that mulvaney runs along with being the acting chief of staff. Sandy testified that he had never in his career seen a senior omb official assume control of a portfolio in such a fashion. Thats referring to his boss, michael duffy. He raised questions to the general counsel about whether it violated the act of 1974. There are questions for the omb staff. The sad thing is this is not supposed to be a politicized process. Congress approved this aid. It was supposed to be delivered. Why wasnt it delivered . So i think omb officials, rank and file career officials, are wondering what is the holdup here . This is not a normal process. This should have been delivered, it wasnt. And apparently it wasnt for domestic political reasons. The president wanted some leverage over ukraine to get some dirt on joe biden. You know, that doesnt sit well with some people. That point is an important one because part of the argument to justify the hold as a kind of conditionality thats a part of policy which i think isnt persuasive at all is overridden by the fact that the aid was already appropriated. Omb is supposed to be dotting the is, crossing the ts and cutting the check, right . Exactly. I think thats why these omb officials are important and thats why mulvaney is such an important witness because he is the acting omb director. He really does understand this budget stuff. And, you know, this was the leverage that trump had to extract the commitment that he wanted from zelensky, the president of ukraine. So for those reasons mulvaney is an important witness but omb has been put in an impossible position, particularly rank and file career people who are just trying to follow the law here. Peter nicholas, thank you very much. Still to come, the republicans have tried out so many arguments against impeachment, you might think youve already heard the worst one yet. That said, senator ron johnson came out with a pretty good contender. Well play it for you, next. D contender. Well play it for you, next. We present limu emu doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] its an honor to tell you that Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. And now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. My moderate to severe i ulcerative colitis. Ing but i realized something was missing. Me. The thought of my symptoms returning was keeping me from being there for the people and things i love most. So, i talked to my doctor and learned humira can help get, and keep, uc under control when other medications havent worked well enough. And it helps people achieve control that lasts so you could experience few or no symptoms. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Be there for you, and them. Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, control is possible. Tto harrison, the wine tcollection. To craig, this rock. I leave these things to my heirs, all 39 million of you, on one condition. That you do everything to preserve and protect them. With love, california. We are now in week two of public impeachment hearings into president donald j. Trump. One of the things that continues to be on display is the utter inability for the Republican Party to come up with a coherent defense for the president. Weve got just general incoherence. The president and his defenders continue to be obsessed with the whistleblower. Despite the fact that we now have just a ton, almost too much sworn evidence about the conduct at issue that goes way beyond the initial whistleblower complaint. Republicans have also largely given up on trying to deny the transgression at the heart of the impeachment inquiry. Congressman welch mentioned this, that the president withheld u. S. Military aid to ukraine in an attempt to extort the ukrainian president into manufacturing dirt on his political rivals. Republicans are pretty much conceding that happened, more or less, but they are arguing that ultimately the aid got released in the end. The ukrainians never announced the investigation trump wanted and everything worked out so whats a little attempted bribery between friends. Just for the sake of their argument, attempted bribery isnt in the constitution. Remember, ukraine got its military aid. It was 14 days delayed, big deal. Big deal. The thing is, though, the aid was not released in a vacuum and this cant be stressed enough. Congress learned about the whistleblower complaint on september 9th. Just two days after that the aid was released, right after the public found out what trump was up to. Generally, as a general matter, you do not get absolved of a crime because you get caught in the act of committing it. Just yesterday we got a novel new edition to the Trump Defense playbook courtesy of republican senator ron johnson who is an interesting character in all of this. Well get into it. He argued if officials had not reported trumps attempted bribery, lawmakers would have managed to talk the crazy man down off the ledge without anyone finding out what he was trying to do. That would have been so much better for everyone. This would have been far better off if we would have just taken care of this behind the scenes. We have two branches of government. Most people, most people want for ukraine. We were trying to convince President Trump. So again, i listened to the Washington Post article lion iedsing this whistleblower. The whistleblowers goal to improve our relationship with ukraine, he utterly or she utterly failed. Joining me now to break down republicans attempted defense of the president , sheryl and carlos curbelo, an mickelson political analyst. Cheryl, let me start with you. If theres unanimity, particularly in the house that the president needs to be defended, theyre not sitting there thinking, oh, this looks bad. But there is and continues to be real confusion as far as i can tell about what the actual argument on the merits is. Well, i think republicans are running out of defenses, frankly. Last week we saw that they were defending the president by saying, oh, all these witnesses are secondhand. Nobody has come before the committee with firsthand information. And that defense actually is going to evaporate this week because were going to see people before the committee who do have firsthand information. People like Gordon Sondland who was the president s point person in dealing with ukrainian officials. So now republicans are saying, well, ukraine got the aid. The investigations of the bidens never happened. So, you know, thats the bottom line basically. Nothing you know, hes not guilty of anything because his plot never materialized. You also mentioned the fact, carlos, that david holmes, whos the person that came forward to give his deposition on friday. I think his transcript is being released momentarily. He says in his testimony that he came forward because of the republican hearsay defense. In his Opening Statement he says, look, all these republicans were saying its all hearsay, i didnt think i needed to testify. And he said i did listen the president bark into the telephone about the investigation. So these defenses that republicans make can have real world results in terms of who feels like they need to come forward as a witness. Thats right, chris. What republicans have done is establish a series of facts that are related to the situation but that arent fundamental to the investigation. So it is true that this administration has given aid to ukraine, lethal defense aid. Thats wonderful. I agree with that. Thats something to celebrate. Its not related to the fact that the president leveraged the aid in order to launch an investigation against a political rival. It doesnt alter the fact that the president invited a foreign leader to investigate a private u. S. Citizen, happens to be running for president. But an american citizen. Which is messed up. Exactly. And so what republicans are doing is deflecting. Theyre establishing facts that are true. Youve seen some of them articulate that. Very eloquently in committee, but it doesnt go to the core of whats being investigated. Do you sheryl, so i noticed last week the first day things were kind of the republicans were not engaging in a lot of theatrics. Theres a little bit in the beginning and then a fairly normal hearing if an Impeachment Committee can be called that. It seemed like between day one and day two there was a note given to amp it up and there were a little more stunts and theatrics. Do you have any sense in reporting about what their approach is this week . I think youre absolutely right. It was interesting. One republican who is working behind the scenes to kind of coordinate strategy told me that their strategy for the first hearing was keep it boring. Lets turn this into a snooze. We dont want people tuning in. And thats what they did. And then you saw that they did try to amp it up. Elise stefanik tried to make a ruckus about adam schiff shutting her down when she went to ask some questions, so there was a little more fireworks. Then President Trump kind of blew things up for them last week when he attacked marie yovanovitch, the witness who testified on friday. I think republicans, frankly, dont quite know what to do this week, especially with the sondland testimony because that could go one of two ways. You know, sondland can really throw President Trump under the bus. I dont know what republicans will just have to contend with that. Its a big question whether or not he wants to fall on his sword for the president. Chris, this is all complicated by the fact that the president demands absolute loyalty. For the president , its not okay if you say, well, i dont really like what the president did but i dont think its impeachable. For him thats betrayal. He will come after you. So these republicans are in the position of having to defend him even in terms of conduct, setting aside impeachment, and that is a very difficult position. Do you think about what you would be doing had you won reelection in 2018, you were in a difficult district that Hillary Clinton won by i think eight points or Something Like that, right . You had a tough, hardfought reelection. Do you watch this and think to yourself if i was there hanging on by my fingernails to a front line seat and was going to have to face the voters in 2020 in a tough race, what would i do . What do you tell yourself about what you would be doing . I would have said there should be an inquiry and i would have supported the opening of an inquiry. I would not have a position yet until impeachment. I would wait until the end of the hearings. Look at whats happened to the Republican Party. There isnt room for that middle ground. Take two young talented republicans, justin amash and elise stefanik. Amash decided to criticize the president and he had to leave the party. He was excommunicated essentially. Exactly. If youre not loyal, absolutely loyal, you have to leave and thats a very difficult political decision to make. In terms of a moral decision, i think its rather easy. But the politics are very complicated. I feel like the whole minority caucus is going to be in there with red hats. Sheryl, carlos, thank you for being with me. Thank you. Still to come, well talk about the president testing the limits of constitutional authority. Plus thing 1, thing 2 starts next. Thority. Plus thing 1, thing 2 starts next hmph. food grunting menacingly when the food you love doesnt love you back, stay smooth and fight heartburn fast with tums smoothies. Tum tumtum tum tums with tums smoothies. Experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. Sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first months payment. I am totally blind. And non24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. Talk to your doctor, and call 8442142424. Thouwhich is Breast Cancer metastthat has spreadcer, to other parts of the body, are living in the moment and taking ibrance. Ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for postmenopausal women or for men with hr her2 metastatic Breast Cancer, as the first hormonal based therapy. Ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole, and shrank tumors in over half of patients. Patients taking ibrance can develop low white blood cell counts which may cause serious infections that can lead to death. Ibrance may cause severe inflammation of the lungs that can lead to death. Tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including trouble breathing, shortness of breath, cough, or chest pain. Before taking ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are pregnant, breastfeeding, or plan to become pregnant. Common side effects include low red blood cell and low platelet counts, infections, tiredness, nausea, sore mouth, abnormalities in liver blood tests, diarrhea, hair thinning or loss, vomiting, rash, and loss of appetite. Be in your moment. Ask your doctor about ibrance. My body is truly powerful. I have the power to lower my blood sugar and a1c. Because i can still make my own insulin. And trulicity activates my body to release it like its supposed to. Trulicity is for people with type 2 diabetes. Its not insulin. I take it once a week. It starts acting in my body from the first dose. Trulicity isnt for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. Dont take trulicity if youre allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Taking trulicity with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, belly pain, and decreased appetite, which lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. I have it within me to lower my a1c. Ask your doctor about trulicity. Thing 1 tonight, every now and then the president gets excited about a particular issue that feels like it kind of came out of nowhere. Lately hes been really worked up about vaping. We have a problem in our country. Its a new problem, its a problem that nobody really thought about too much a few years ago and its called vaping. Especially vaping as it pertains to innocent children. And theyre coming home and theyre saying, mom, i want to vape. Im not sure thats how it usually goes down. But okay, sure, vaping is definitely not a good thing for children, especially the flavored ecigarettes that appeal to kids. And so trump has been talking a lot about taking action. Were going to be coming out with a very important position on vaping. We have to take care of our kids most importantly. Were talking about the age, were talking about flavors. And so his administration got to work, federal regulators agreed to ban flavored ecigarettes. Officials planned an announcement, they drafted the ban, they put it in front of trump for signature and he said, never mind. And thats thing 2 in 60 seconds. And thats thing 2 in 60 seconds. So President Trump has been really concerned about vaping lately. Apparently in large part because its an issue thats important to melania. Vaping has become a very big business, as i understand it, like a giant business in a very short period of time. But we cant allow people to get sick and we cant have our youth be so affected. Im hearing it and thats how the first lady got involved. Shes got a son together that is a beautiful young man and she feels very, very strongly about it. Shes seen it. Were both reading it. A lot of people are reading it. But people are dying with vaping. But in the end melanias concern about her son, their son, you know, together, you know other people dying just wasnt enough. When it came time to actually sign off on a ban on flavored ecigarettes about his talk about doing it, he didnt. A complete reversal. Why . Well, maybe it was because the president s Campaign Manager reportedly told him the ban would hurt him with his base of vaping maga people. So it has gone from ban it to more of a Nancy Reaganesque just say dont vape. Mr. President , what exactly have you and the first lady told barron about vaping . We havent told him anything yet. Dont vape. Dont vape. We dont like vaping. I dont like vaping. I dont likn with advil, you have power over pain, so the whole world looks different. The unbeatable strength of advil. What pain . When didwhen i needed ton . Jumpstart sales. Build attendance for an event. Help people find their way. Fastsigns designed new directional signage. And got them back on track. Get started at fastsigns. Com. How did you find greatgrandmas recipe . Were related to them . Were portuguese . I thought we were hungarian . Grandpa, can you tell me the story again . Behind every question is a story waiting to be discovered. If ylittle thingsate btcan be a big deal. , thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not a cream. Its a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. With otezla, 75 clearer skin is achievable. Dont use if youre allergic to otezla. It may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. Otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. Tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. Some people taking otezla reported weight loss. Your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. Upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. Tell your doctor about your medicines and if youre pregnant or planning to be. Otezla. Show more of you. Billions of problems. Morning breath . Garlic breath . Stinky breath . Theres a therabreath for you. Therabreath fresh breath oral rinse instantly fights all types of bad breath and works for 24 hours. So you can. Breathe easy. Theres therabreath at walmart. Set yourself free with fleet. Gentle constipation relief in minutes. Little fleet. Big relief. Try it. Feel it. Feel that fleet feeling. Little fleet. Big relief. Try it. Feel it. I am totally blind. And non24 can make me show up too early. Or too late. Or make me feel like im not really there. Talk to your doctor, and call 8442342424. Of millions of americans during the recession. So, my wife kat and i took action. We started a Nonprofit Community bank with a simple theory give people a fair deal and real economic power. Invest in the community, in businesses owned by women and people of color, in affordable housing. The difference between words and actions matters. Thats a lesson politicians in washington could use right now. Im tom steyer, and i approve this message. Back in october 2016 Army Major Matthew Goldstein admitted on camera to executing a prisoner who had just been released from custody in afghanistan. Shortly after releasing the taliban detainee, goldstein took matters into his own hands. Did you kill the taliban bomb maker . Yes. That admission led the armys criminal investigation command to reopen its investigation into the killing and ended up charging goldstein in 2018 with murder. He was awaiting trial until friday when for what could possibly be the first time in American History as far as we can tell, the commander in chief pardoned a member of the Armed Services accused of a war crime prior to their trial. Goldstein wasnt the only one pardoned on friday. The president also pardoned Army First Lieutenant Clint Lorance who was serving 19 years for ordering his soldiers to open fire on three unarmed men in afghanistan. Keep in mind lorance was convicted with the aid of testimony from nine members of his own platoon. The president also restored the rank of navy s. E. A. L. Edward gallaghe gallagher. They argued it would undermine their ability to maintain good order and discipline and tangibly endanger soldiers in the field, but trump was lobbied heavily by some trump tv stars who he cares about more than any pentagon official. Andrew exum summed up his feelings this way. These men, now pardoned, remain a disgrace to our ranks. Back in may he pardoned Michael Behenna who was imprisoned after killing an iraqi prisoner in u. S. Custody. But President Trump is the only president in recent history to Pardon Service members convicted of war crimes. Of war c rimes. Is is my bod proof of less joint pa and clearer skin. Man 2 vo proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis. Woman 2 vo . With humira. Woman 3 vo humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. Its proven to help relieve pain, stop further irreversible joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. Humira is the number one prescribed biologic for psoriatic arthritis. Avo humira can lower your ability to fight infections. Serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Man 3 vo ask your rheumatologist about humira. Woman 4 vo go to humira. Com to see proof in action. Fidelity has zero commissions for online u. S. Equity trades and etfs, plus zero minimums to open a brokerage account. With value like this, there are zero reasons to invest anywhere else. Fidelity. The president of the United States has the absolute power to pardon people. It was granted by the constitution, just like he has the absolute power to, say, recall an ambassador. The trump has good test cases for cases of authority. Because if the purpose is corrupt enough, what then is to stop him . Would it be constitutional for a president to offer a pardon in exchange for half a Million Dollars . Or recall an ambassador because she wouldnt have a romantic relationship with him . Neither of those pertain here, obviously. But the point is that there must be some limits to these broad powers if abused. And the only constitutional remedy that was provided for them was impeachment, which is why we are where we are. To talk more about that, i am joined by harvard law professor, he was president Barack Obamas administrator for the White House Office of information and regulatory affairs. He also has a book out. Its good to have you here. Good to be here. I thought of you here because theres mention of pardon power in the impeachment book. And we saw the pardons on friday night. Obviously i dont think those are impeachable necessarily. But it is a kind of loaded gun inside the constitution that even at the time they were worried about. Completely. So in virginia where the constitution maybe wasnt going to be ratified, there was a debate exactly about the loaded gun and prom meant people said you cant ratify the constitution because it its not what we fought the revolution for. And james mattis very quietly says the gentlemen seem to have forgotten something. And then he says if the president shelters someone whos committed crimes that the president himself saw or participated in, the president will be impeached. So, i mean, matson at that moment understands the kind of check to an unchecked power. Completely. So the pardon power was one of a number of authorities that people were worried about and madison and hamilton and many others, franklin certainly, thought the reason for the impeachment clause is to say that abuse of power is an Impeachable Offense. And that goes back to the prerevolutionary period when the american colnists had started impeaching agents of the king. There is a broader theme here with the president is that there are all kinds of ways in which his power is wielded that are lawless, if not illegal. And places where the corrupt intent or the bad faith about the actions of government are taking end up making it hard to credit what hes doing as orderly or a proper use of the power to take care of the laws that are faithfully executed. Completely. Thats actually how the census case got resolved when chief Justice Roberts whos not known as a leftest person ended up concluding that because the reason for adding the question to the census about citizenship wasnt what was articulated to get an accurate count, that we really had to rethink it and make sure that legitimate goals were pursued. And for impeachment and president ial power thats like a large theme that if you have an authority but the reason you are doing it has to do with your own selfinterest or about corrupting our system or about abusing civil liberty, then all bets are off in the sense that we the people are allowed to rise up and say you cant be president anymore. The corruption of that intent pertains explicitly to the arguments that we made that we see made on the president s behalf by his defenders which is essentially look, we condition foreign aid all the time, this is all part of policy essentially, fundamentally. And thats a completely fair point. So to condition a foreign aid on combating corruption is legitimate and in many ways honorable. And if thats all that happened here i think no one would have a complaint which is actually a productive clarification that suggests the only question republicans and democrats actually agree is was this a neutral effort to ferret out corruption or was this to target a political opponent . Suggests the latter would be the legitimate thing to do. What do you think that attempted bribery isnt in the constitution. And an argument ive seen growing in the right in the wall street journal editorial page which is essentially, well, look, he didnt get away with it. In the end they released the aid and the announcement by president zelensky of investigations the bidens didnt happen. So really lets all move on. Well, the first point is that attempted treason would be an Impeachable Offense if you tried to commit treason but you failed because you werent good at it, it wouldnt be easy to say thats not an Impeachable Offense. A second thing to say is that bribery is actually defined to include solicitation of bribery. That is bribery. The third thing to say i see. If you ask someone for a bribe, you are committing the crime of bribery whether they fork it over or not . Thats the technical definition. It is part of the offense. And the third thing to say is even if it was attempted bribery, an attempted crime is a very bad thing to do. Its part of something that lands a lot of people in jail. And so the fact that it didnt work, if thats the defense wouldnt be a very good defense. And the last thing to say is even if it werent bribery, and note the definition of bribery includes solicitation, there is a constitutional term that i think people familiar with high crimes and misdemeanors which refers to abuse of authority and the whole point was to say even if its not treason, even if its not bribery, its impeachable. My final question is about the ways in which impeachment shapes our views of the executive and the relationship particularly between congress the people and the presidency. When you look back at other moments of impeachment, had there been sort of lasting effects of this assertion of a kind of congressional power against the sort of ever expanding imperial presidency . Or is it just a sort of blip and then we go back to this i think it has had lasting effects so the nixon impeachment effort which led to his resignation actually was a moment of accounting for the country which led to a variety of restrictions which were designed to ensure that this kind of thing wouldnt happen again. And those things generally, those restrictions would have to do with corruption and Civil Liberties and Foreign Policy and constraints on using the presidency as a political weapon. Those things are in effect. And generally theyre working and they are supported by both sides. With clinton its less clear because we didnt have an abuse of distinctly president ial authority. We had a different type of fish. But even so the clinton impeachment i think did help contribute for a while to a culture where integrity was a prized value. One reason president bush actually became president bush is that he ran a campaign of im going to be honest, im going to be a person of integrity. All right, cass, its great to have you here in studio. That is all in for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Happy to have you here. So what we are learning in this time in American History is that not everybody gets a soft landing. Some people do. Some people dont. But you cant necessarily predict it in advance. It really depends on the circumstances. If you are going to get caught up in one of these Trump Administration scandals, woe be unto you if you think you can see from the beginning how its going to end for you once you get caught. Take, for example, what happened on friday when the president s longest term political adviser roger stone was convicted on seven felony counts. Now under statutory guidelines that means stone could be facing literally decades in prison. He is not that young a man. And when you see on paper that he could be looking at like 50 years in prison, it kind of looks like the end of the world for somebody like roger stone, the end of his free life, right . Bu