Administration and today another chapter of this administration played out as we watched live on cable television. In fact, into the night. A former Trump Campaign aide, as weve been saying, sam nunberg, today announced very publicly and repeatedly he plans to defy a subpoena from Robert Mueller. Katie tur says sam nunberg said hell probably cooperate with muler in the end. But the day played out this way. Without informing his lawyer, nunberg talked to his lawyer, appearing on cable news networks, including this one, repeatedly and in a matter of hours, it all started this afternoon as katie tur conducted a live telephone interview. Reporter why are you saying no . Because what they said to me was absolutely ridiculous. They wanted every email i had with roger stone and with steve bannon. Why should i hand them emails from november 1st, 2015 . I was thinking about this today, katie, i was preparing it. Should i spend 50 hours going over all my emails with roger and with steve bannon . And then they wanted emails that hi with hope hicks, with corey lewandowski. Are you giving me a break . Its ridiculous. What sam nunberg was talking about was a request within that subpoena seeking all documents involving the president and a host of his closest advisers. Nbc news has on it and a copy of the subpoena and it does ask for all emails, text messages, phone logs that pertain to ten key figures in the Trump Campaign and the white house. From the president and aides like hope hicks, Paul Manafort to long time gop operative and trump friend roger stone, who nunberg describes as a mentor. Just a few hours ago, nunberg appeared again on this network and explained for the real reasons for defying the command to appear before a grand jury. Ive talked to them, ive spent money on an attorney and i cooperated with them. And when i got Something Like this and then they wanted me to go to the grand jury next friday and i believe theyre trying to start a case against roger, theyre trying to set up a perjury case against roger. Im not going to have it. Rogers my mentor. Roger is like family to me. And im not going to do it. Im not going to testify against roger. Roger did not do anything. Roger was treated terribly by donald trump. Nunbergs loyalty to roger stone wasnt the only thing he told ari melber. He went further about the mueller process and donald trump. I know mueller, i know the whole team, they probably have something on trump. Trump did something pretty bad. I think they were interested with something with his business. With his business. Did they ask you how he ran his business . Yes. By the way, i have no idea what he did. Nunberg went even further at a later point to suggest whatever it is the president might have done could have an impact on the president s preferred news network. By the way, youre going to be fine when it comes out what he did. But people like sean hannity, lou dobbs, theyre going to be very embarrassed when it comes out. The white house, however, is dismissing nunbergs claims about any potential case against this president. I think he doesnt know that for sure because hes incorrect. As weve said many times before, there was no collusion with the Trump Campaign. Anything further on what his actions are, he hasnt worked at the white house so i certainly cant speak to him or the lack of knowledge that he clearly has. And as the man says on tv but wait, theres more, as we mentioned just before air time tonight, his story appears to have changed again and well talk about that change with one of our guest who is is standing by to talk with us. Lets bring in with that cue our leadoff panel on a busy wednesday night. Phillip rucker, jill coven, White House Reporter for the Associated Press. Former u. S. Attorney joyce vance and john heilemann, our msnbc analyst. What can you report about what may or may not happen on friday . You had sam giving interview after interview after interview where he was really just charging, threatening not to participate in any of the mueller subpoena requests, saying he wasnt going to show up on friday, threatening to arrest him if they wanted to. But in my conversation with him after he finished all his cable news shows, he was in a much more somber mood. He said im really frustrated, they asked me for all of these emails, i emailed steve bannon and roger stone every day, its so many hours of work they put me through, i dont understand i have to do, i didnt do anything wrong but i guess in the end ill end up cooperating with them anyway. He said ideally hed like muler to come back with a revised subpoena. He actually singled out carter page to me saying if he only got a new subpoena that didnt have pages name on it, hed be happy to comply with it. He also said hed never spoken to carter page. Im not sure why page is significant here. But overall it was a very different tone from him saying i know im going to do this, i have to do this but i wanted to put up a fight. Unbelievable. To our former fed we go. Joyce, i have so many questions for you. Can you say no to a subpoena like this . Can you narrow your own scope and get a bigger deal when you have been commanded to show up on friday . You cant say no. The grand jury has the power to issue a subpoena to you and as long as its a proper subpoena, which this one is, you cant just flat out reject it. But you can ask your lawyer to work with prosecutors perhaps to give you a little bit more time to come comply if youre being asked to go through a lot of documents. But having thrown down the gauntlet saying he wouldnt show up and it would be funny if he put him in jail, i think sam nunberg has not put himself in a good bargaining position with mueller in terms of getting any type of favorable treatment. From all reviews, mueller is not a petty man, but mr. Nunberg said a lot of things about a lot of people today, including mueller and the process and kind of scoffed at the process. To your last point there, will that come around to haunt him in any substantive way . I think that youre right that mueller is not petty. Hes by the book. But he is concerned about the institution. So one way this could boomerang on mr. Nunberg is because there will be need to uphold the integrity of the institution and ensure grand juries in the process are respected, i suspect mr. Nunberg will find himself very thoroughly interviewed in the grand jury with the production of any documents they deem necessary to the investigation. Today that he had received immunity. And so that would indicate, if its true, if hes accurately reflecting that, that he would not be subject to substantive action against himself personally. Phil rucker, this was one of those cable era are you watching this days and all of our phones lit up. I assume the same happened to, friends, family saying some version of the question who is this guy . Mr. Rucker, who is this guy . Thats a great question, brian. Sam nunberg was sort of the keeper of trumps political operation, to the extent he had a political manager in those years in the run up to the campaign, it was sam nunberg. He worked really closely were roger stone, who he said was his mentor. And sam would arrange his schedule, his Campaign Appearances and so forth around the country before he launched his campaign. His campaign. Then when he launched his campaign in 2015, nunberg very soon thereafter had a falling out. He was forced out by corey lewandowski, the Campaign Manager at the time and in part because of racially charged facebook posts found on nunbergs facebook account. It was a pretty clean break from the trump operation and nunberg has not been in the president s good graces since then. Hes had a couple conversations with trump, but there was a lawsuit at one point and the white house staff really have attacked his credibility and see him as very much a fringe figure in the trump orbit today. John heilemann, a friend of mine says theres been a market reduction in graffiti in public because its all gone to twitter. Something just north of 20 of americans are on it, theres no barrier to entry, theres no filter on what you can say about people. Im going to show you something that happened with erin burnett on cnn tonight because of what people were saying all day on social media about mr. Nunberg and what trump forces were kind of calling around and texting around. Heres the exchange. It came to this. Talking to you i have smelled alcohol on your breath. Well, i have not had a drink. You havent had a drink . No. Anything else . No. No . No. Besides my meds. Okay. Antidepressants. Is that okay . That was kind of an incredible exchange. For anyone who might have found today entertaining, it was equal parts troubling as well. It came up as soon as sam got off the air with katie, it was the beginning of this, people started raising questions about whether or not hed been drinking and i jokingly said today im familiar with people who drink at 3 in the afternoon. He didnt seem drunk to me. Ive talked to sam a lot over the years. As much as people wanted to say he seemed unhinged or crazy or altered, thats not very different with how hes conducted himself with hundreds of reporters over the course of the last four or five years. Its not to say its praise worthy but just to say thats sam nunberg right there. I think theres no question that he having done his time, having gone in and sat with mueller and his people a week ago, to get the subpoena and then be told hes going to have to go to the grand jury, he was clearly freaked out today. This is a person again, i say neither with sympathy or criticism, he did not seem altered to me but seemed under enormous emotional duress. He focused a lot on roger stone and his conversations. Hes not kidding that roger stone was his political mentor and hes not kidding that hes got dozens and hundreds of correspondent with him all the way to the relevant period. These are people with whom he had a lot of conversations and as the special prosecutor starts to look more at people like roger stone, you can understand why you might want to know what is in the communication with sam nunberg. Joy, im no lawyer and lord knows im no former fed but when you keep saying in effect youd go to jail to protect roger stone, you sure have unleashed an idea in the cable court of Public Opinion that maybe roger stone, your buddy, has something to hide. If he was trying to protect stone, i think he had precisely the opposite effect today. His conversation with ari melber was meandering, he was all over the place. He seemed to contradict himself at times. But one focus that was clear was that he was concerned about stone and some sort of a risk of committing perjury or other sorts of charges and that his goal was to protect his friend and mentor from that. If the court of Public Opinion was voting on roger stone tonight it, probably would be a bad outcome. Jill, you and phillip dont do analysis but please come close. What does this say about the people drawn to the orbit of donald trump . Yeah. Sam is one of the people who was there in the very early days, roger stone, too. When you watch sam doing his whole cable news show after show, how much it felt like roger stone and donald trump, who used to call in from one cable show to the next. Talking to him tonight, sam really kind of seemed proud of himself saying look at me, like what ive done tonight, nobody has seen anything like this, have they . Phil rucker, what can can we what can we surmise now that weve seen the wording on one of the subpoenas . Well, sam nunberg is about as far away in key moments as he can be and yet hes a key player in this investigation i think because of how far mueller and his team are going to try to figure out whether somebody like roger stone, whether somebody like steve bannon had any improper contacts. John, ive also seen some folks who probably should have been nominated last night. There are trump surrogates on cable tonight saying things like i hope he is with his family and i hope this cry for help is answered, expressing crocodile concerns about his health and otherwise. Theres not a lot of love loss between donald trump and sam nunberg at this point nor between most of the people around donald trump and sam nunberg at this point. It is obviously a crocodile concern as you put it. Also i think its setting up something for the future for them to try to discredit him if he becomes or his testimony in any way becomes damaging to anyone close to donald trump. I will say the most single most irrational thing he did today was to doubt that Robert Mueller would put him in jail. If you look at the way mueller has conducted this investigation, the noknock warrants to Paul Manafort, set p down deterrence to people behaving badly. He wants to let people know you cannot defy me. So i think he would love to put sam nunberg in jail just to send a message to everybody else. It happened before in the clinton years when not complying with the prosecutor landed Susan Mcdougal in jail for 14 months. Phillip rucker, jill colvin, my thanks to all of you for being with us on this busy night of news. What todays round of staggering interview will mean. That and much more. Were just getting started. You know whats awesome . Gigspeed internet. You know whats not awesome . When only certain people can get it. Lets fix that. Lets give this guy gig really . And these kids, and these guys, him, ah. Oh hello. That lady, these houses yes, yes and yes. And dont forget about them. Uh huh, sure. Still yes xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. Now you can get it, too. Welcome to the party. There is other news tonight on the russia investigation. This morning the president was on twitter, lo that many hours ago to weigh in on the mueller investigation, quote, why did the Obama Administration start an investigation into the Trump Campaign with zero proof of wrong doing, long before the election in november . Wanted to discredit so crooked hillary would win, unprecedented, bigger than watergate. Plus obama did nothing about russian meddling. Nbc news has confirmed the New York Times reporting that the state department has not spent the 120 million set aside to counter russian interference. An and theres a piece in the new yorker about Christopher Steele as this detail alleging that the kremlin was involved in more than just our elections. The new yorker reports steele is believed to have discussed a memo he wrote after the 2016 election with special counsel mueller. That memo was based on one source described as a senior russian official and we quote from the journalist jane mayor, the official said that he was merely relaying talk circulating in the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs but what hed heard was astonishing. People were saying that the kremlin had interviewed to block trumps initial choice for secretary of state, mitt romney. If what the source heard was true, that is a foreign power was exercising influence over our government. John heilemann single source, not clear. Its raw intelligence, like all the rest of the things in the steele dossier. If you think about Donald Trumps candidacy and his presidency, the things he says, the policies hes pursued and he hasnt pursued, who is secretary of state, each one of them would be the choice that Vladimir Putin would make, in every instance if you look at the entirety of it. If you think about that and the fact that were still concerned about the russians meddling in the 2018 elections. There is nothing of this surprising, including the detail jane mayor writes about. In so many of his appearances today, nunberg has casually tossed in the conversation, you know, i came up with the wall. What does donald trump hate, its a remark like that from someone he sees as an underling. Thats right. Trump fumed over steve bannon for taking credit for aspects of the campaign and the general election. Trump wants credit for all of it. The more headlines about russia, the more angry and frustrated the president against. For much of last week he was raging in the residence, staying up late at night watching television, up early the next morning watching television, calling his friends and calling his Kitchen Cabinet of advisers in fits of rage over aspects of the russia probe. Whether its the conduct of attorney general Jeff Sessions or the scrutiny every day, there was a new drip of day about his soninlaw and white house senior adviser. So it bothers him. I cant imagine hes pleased to see this jeanne mayer piece. And same question, how much more will this darken the atmosphere . Weve heard that the white house is in very dire times. People are comparing this to the lowest moments during the white house during the campaign, comparing it to the charlottesville that got so much back and forth that got so much criticism and the president is increasingly isolated. Youve got hope hicks departing and tension on Jared Kushner and questions about john kelly. He doesnt really have anybody around him to turn to, which is why youre seeing him calling outside advisers, who wind up leaking and continue the chaos. Three superb journalists helping to start us off tonight. Coming up for us, how does the Trump Legal Team now react to these allegations made all day on Live Television . Well ask the man who once represented bill clinton when the 11 hour continues. Fred would do anything for his daughter. Well fred. Good thing the front of this unicorn washed. The shirt with gain. Because gain has the scent that puts the giddy in giddyup welcome back. We have learned tonight that former Trump Campaign aide sam nunberg will likely cooperate with special counsel Robert Muellers subpoena in the russia investigation. Hes told several people different things. He told the Associated Press in the form of jill colvin, quote, im going to end up cooperating with them. He told our own katie tur he will probably cooperate with mueller in the end but doesnt want to make it easy. He wasnt so certain when ari melber talked to him at 9 51 p. M. Tonight. At any rate, before nunbergs possible change of heart, he told multiple news outlets he would not be complying with muellers subpoena and at one point he even told our own ari melber he isnt worried about going to prison. Theyre not going to send me to jail. Mr. Mueller, if he wants to send me to jail, he can send me to jail and ill laugh about it and make a bigger spectacle than i am on your tv show right now. Here to talk about it, bob bennett, veteran lawyer, who was president clintons personal lawyer in the paula jones case. Thank you so much for coming on with us again tonight. What does this gentleman need to understand about a federal subpoena in your view . Well, its not an invitation to a garden party where he can say, yes, ill come or no, i wont come. Hes commanded to come. He has no choice. We were harkening back today to the case of Susan Mcdougal and the whitewater matter. She declined the invitation and she paid for that decision with jail time. Have you any reason to think that would not be the outcome in a case like this . No, i think it will be, particularly since the gentleman made such a spectacle of saying he would defy the subpoena. Mueller cannot permit that to happen because it could have an impact on other witnesses. He gave mueller a terrific opportunity to show how tough and determined he is. He seems offended, if thats the correct word, to share this document with people like carter page and corey lewandowski, two people he is not fond of. He keeps saying he wants to narrow the scope and of course he wouldnt have any communication with those two guys, he doesnt get along with them. After everything he has said today about the special counsel, is he likely to get any sweetening of the scope of what they plan to ask him . Well, i doubt it. I read the subpoena, and its actually quite narrow. The period of time is relatively short, a few years, and theres only, you know, nine or ten people who are mentioned. So as subpoenas go, this is pretty narrow. Now, i know bob mueller quite well, and i dont think he will be so outraged about what he said that hes determined to put him in jail, but he will give him an opportunity with his lawyers to come in and express any objections and if they can reasonably be worked out like narrowing the subpoena or shortening the period of time, mueller will do that. But hes not going to bend very far. Hes going to press this and i and if he sticks to what he said earlier today, hes going to be wearing an orange jumpsuit. You say you do know bob mueller and youve both been around washington legal circles a long time. We know he has 16 cocounseling or different prongs or tranches in the investigation. We keep thinking maybe the hackers and leakers will be next. I know you get asked this on a daily basis. How far along do you believe we how far along do you believe we are in this process . Its very difficult to answer that because its like the investigation is like a glacier where you know what you see on top but you dont know whats underneath. I suspect that mueller has a lot more evidence and information than has been has been reported. So i think hes pretty far down the line on a lot of issues. Thats not to say i think this is coming to a quick close. Well, let me ask you to speculate on another front and that is what form this will take. Do you think the special counsel will emerge and lay his findings at the feet of americans and congress and say here it all is, deal with it . Well, i dont think he has the authority to do that. But i think he will put together a document which covers all those things, and then it will be, i believe, the decision of the Deputy Attorney general, mr. Rosenstein because the attorney general recused himself, to decide who gets it. Certainly im confident it will be sent to at least the leaders of congress and im quite confident that it someday will be released to the public. Bob bennett, whose clients include a former president of the united states, counselor, thanks very much for coming on the broadcast with us tonight. Thank you for having me, brian. And coming up for us, why the president is again at odds with his own party. That and more when we continue. President trump is standing by his plan to impose tariffs on aluminum and steel imports. His announcement last week came as a stunner to just about everyone and its sowing discord among other places his own party. Paul ryan said we are extremely worried about a trade war. This tariff notion has angered u. S. Allies, including mexico and canada but so far the president has not been swayed. Paul ryan says he worried about a trade war. Are you going to back down on the tariffs . No, were not going to back down. Weve had a very bad deal with mexico and a bad deal with canada. Its called nafta. For many years, naftas been a disaster. If we dont make a deal, ill terminate nafta. Youre not worried about trade war . I dont think so. No trade war . I dont think so, no. A few days ago the president said trade wars are good and easy to win. We welcome a veteran washington journalist, columnist and associated editor at real clear politics. Its a put down of a phrase to say someone finds their voice. But i heard it said today since when did the speaker find his voice on this topic, visavis this president . He has taken so much. Well, thats true but not only does this differ from when he has these meetings and goes wild about meeting the democrats in the middle on immigration or cutting threemonth spending deal with chuck and nancy or talking about coming to the middle on guns, those are legislative deals that Congress Knows hell change his mind about in a few minutes. This is executive power. Theyre very weird that hell wield it. That are very worried hes a true protectionist. This goes against what their donors are very concerned about this policy and very concerned about their mid term prospects. The Business Community is horrified. I mean, they have been working this, brian, for months and months, since he got into office. This has always been a goal of his and they have been trying to stop it and have successfully until now. I heard someone report tonight that gary cohn has put together a bunch of visiting executives from the industries on thursday to have dialogue . When Peter Navarro says theres no downstream effect, the advisers are trying as theyve told him privately for all these months to explain the downstream effects who will experience it. Hes going to bring in people who say its a major threat and it will impose a new tax. Theyre hoping that this high level of drama with an impending announcement will get to the president. How did the trump agenda advance today, an intentionally snide question i ask. Hes not looking for an out, he loves this, hes defiant. The speaker and influential people in the parties have raised enough volume on this im not going to be surprised if we see exemptions for either the canadians or mexicans. Hes enjoys defines, hes leaving room for slippage but we cant say today where this situation will go. If youre ryan or mcconnell, what are you thinking by these days . The threat from the Donor Community was there will be no more checks, you will get nothing. They are on the hot seat they were on the hot seat on immigration, not anymore. The courts have given them an agenda. There is no agenda for 2018. We know were not going to see a big fight in election year. Theyre trying to avoid something on guns. They really are theyre just trying to get month to month through without more damage and theyre very worried. All they have to talk about is the tax bill. This idea of tariffs producing a new tax and sending the Community South for their voters. A. B. Stoddard, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Coming up, how to fight fake news. Someone has a new idea on that front. Well have it when we continue. Its fake news, fake news. This is going to be great for people. Fake news, folks. One of the fake news networks, cnn, was saying i want teachers to have guns. I dont want teachers to have guns. The real news has painted a dark picture of late. As reported in the Washington Post over this past weekend, quote, these are the darkest days in at least half a year, aides say. They worry just how much farther President Trump and his Administration May plunge into unrest and malaise before they start to recover. Before today the white house pushed back claiming everything is fine. Can you speak to the morale after scaramucci said friday morale has never been lower . I do not agree. Were in a great place. Its been an historic first year. Were continuing to focus on the things that president Trump Campaigned on. Were excited about what weve done and where were going and were going to continue working hard for the american people. With that we welcome back to our broadcast jim warren, a veteran journalist and author, former editor and d. C. Bureau chief who is new executive editor of news guard technologies, a news startup that aims to identify news from fake news. Whats more precedent, a president who names fake news and in fact fake news generated by bots. Theyre both pernicious. I got in from chicago this morning, and i always feel nostalgic, grew up on the Upper West Side in a day where reading a paper was part of your duty. Fast forward, internet comes and everybody, whether its somebody in your hometown in jersey or someone in a basement in romania is now a publisher. Anybody can be a publisher and say what they want. Now you have a president who coined a phrase, tapped into a political blood stream. It has worked very effectively, clearly for his base. Remember that, everything youre talking about, talked with a. B. Stoddard about trade, this is all about playing to the base and make no mistake, there has absolutely worked. Two years ago the pew group asked americans about whether they saw the media as having an oversight function, a watch dog function. Democrats and republicans were about the same, mid 70s, yes, they agreed. Two years later the democratic number has gone up a little bit, the republican number is in the 40s. Thats how its plummeted. With this democratization, you have trump, as his white house guest, Benjamin Netanyahu is doing fairly effectively in israel, using the same bash the media card because its working i dont know in israel did you in this country it is socially destructivedestru so youre going to for lack of a better wore curate web sites in realtime and give them stamp of approval or not. How do you do that for more than a blue audience . In a divided country, how do you tell people this has been verified, you can believe this . You do what you can. Theres Something Like a million new links every day, say you had 1 of that hundred million are baloney. There are not enough reporters in the world to feret all those out. Well trying to be fairminded, no loaded adjectives but something that produces actual news or something is slightly suspicious or outright bogus and hope that maybe the way Consumer Reports over the years a trusted source. So you went there before you bought the new refrigerator and said, yeah, i kind of believe those guys. And hopefully we can convince platform like google and facebook, who have an interest and it automatically puts their advertisements on sites that are simply bogus. Just like underwriters laboratories, Good Housekeeping seal, will we come to know your seal on what we consumers see in the media . Well, i hope a year from now i can say that. I hope that people like facebook and google will agree to do that because ultimately as i found out this morning in the dark driving to Ohare Airport from chicago and i saw this white sedan with a couple of mexican immigrants passing bringing the papers to our block, there are fewer and fewer people reading those newspapers, reading real, smart, curated news and civil engagement is imperilled. I hope we can do a Little Something starting today. Great to see you, my friend. Well have you back of course. Coming up, the collision that is playing out in realtime between the business of the presidency and a president with a business. That and more right after this. A few final items before we i have antivirus, but my computers still slow. Thats not right. Maybe if i reboot. Whats with all the popups . Why does it keep on crashing . This is taking forever. I think its time for the fixmestick. Fixmestick is a plugin virus removal device. 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Ok, i see spyware, trojans, keyloggers, and here it is, the rootkit the fixmestick is like having your own it department in the palm of your hand. And because it connects to the internet, its always up to date. Coffee were going to need some more coffee down here. Anyone, coffee . Advanced technology in an external device has enabled people all over the world to get the upper hand against viruses and malware. Try it for 30 days, and see for yourself why more than a Million People trust fixmestick to keep their computer fast, clean, and safe. Call us today or visit us online. A few final items before we go tonight. All three are about the presidency. Two out of three concern this presidency. You might have seen that photo. Bad day for the trump name in panama. The family name has been chiselled off of a building. They the name has cost them business. The owner said he won a judgment and has ordered the name taken off. And according to an investigative report, golf markers were made with the government seal. The seal is not supposed to be used for private business and no in this case trump international. Ethics watch dogs make it their business to watch out for exactly this kind of thing where the seal is concerned. And we end tonight with our first president. In 1791 George Washington received a gift from the governor of new york. It was a whiskey barrel cut in half and filled with dirt. In it was a seedling, a small canadian hemlock tree. Its believed washington planted it on the grounds of mount vernon and was later buried there beneath it. It became one of the most chronicled and cared for trees in all the land. It stood there for 227 years but then along came that violent noreaster, the storm late last week and the tree is no more. The last direct and living link to our first president is gone 227 years after he placed it in the ground. That is our broadcast on this monday night. Thank you so very much for being here with us. Good night from nbc news headquarters in new york. Nunberg took over cable news like a car chase. He was on msnbc at 2 30, cnn at 3 30. I believe at 5 00, he called in to hgtv to incripple nate himself on flip or flop. Im pretty sure after mueller gets through with him, its going to be flip. Former Trump Campaign aide sam nunburg spend a day defying Robert Mueller, but has he reversed course . Last fight, he seemed to say he will likely cooperate with a subpoena f