Hour gets under way on a thursday night. And good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. Day 875 of the trump administration. The president is in something of a mess of his own making, starting with his comments yesterday that he, indeed, would be open to dirt on a political opponent if offered by a foreign power. As he put it to abc news, i think id take it. He went on to add this. When somebody comes up with oppo research, right, they come up with oppo research, oh, lets call the fbi. The fbi doesnt have enough agents to take care of it. But you go and talk honestly to congressmen, they all do it, they always have, and thats the way it is. Its called oppo research. Two months ago Robert Mueller detailed multiple russian offers of assistance to the Trump Campaign in his report. The investigation found 140 contacts between Trump Officials and russians. This morning as the controversy over trumps comments was building, he defended himself on social media, and we quote, i meet and talk to Foreign Governments every day. I just met with the queen of england, uk, the prince of wales, and were pretty sure here he meant wales without the h, not the seagoing animals, the pm of the united kingdom, the pm of ireland, the president of france and the president of poland. We talked about everything with a capital e. How ridiculous. I would never be trusted again. The white house communication swap swung into action with its own explanation of trumps comments, including his assertion that the fbi should not be alerted about attempted election interference. I was standing just feet away from the president in his exchange with george stephanopoulos. It was very clear the president said if there was wrongdoing, of course hed turn it over to the fbi. The interviewer, stephanopoulos, did point out the fbi director Christopher Wray has said campaigns should reach out to the bureau if they are contacted by a foreign entity. The president responded the fbi director is wrong. Right. But, first of all, i think we were talking about james comey at the time and we all know james comey is wrong after being a convicted liar and leaker, so thats what the president was talking about. Not clear there. Members of trumps own party also weighed in. Heres how two of his strongest supporters in congress reacted. It is not okay for any public official to receive assistance from a Foreign Government. Whether it be anything of value, money or Opposition Research. I hope well do two things. Well make that clear to everybody so that we dont go down this road and then well look at what happened in 2016 with Christopher Steele because he was a Foreign Agent paid for by the Democratic Party to do Opposition Research on trump. Is it right for the president to say he would listen if foreigners offered dirt on his political opponents . Is that the kind of help you would take. Youre talking about a hypothetical. What would you have done . Ask a question. Doesnt the president have to set a tone about what is right and what is wrong . I think the president s been very clear. The president does not want Foreign Governments to interfere in our elections. Hes been very strong about that. About assistance. He did not say he would have a Foreign Government he said he would look at the information, listen to it, and if there were a problem, hed go to the fbi. Ive watched the president. I believe the president would always do the right action. So while a lot of republicans today deflected to hillary, to steele, to comey, Nancy Pelosis reaction could be called unsparing and yet careful. What the president said last night shows clearly, once again, over and over again, that he does not know the difference between right and wrong, and thats probably the nicest thing i can say about him. Would you consider that grounds to launch impeachment proceedings . It has nothing to do with any campaign. Make sure i want you all to understand that. As we go down this path to seek the truth for the American People, and to hold the president accountable, it has nothing to do with politics. Or any campaigns. Earlier tonight the chairwoman of the federal Election Commission offered a very rare and very blunt public warning. We cant remember anything quite like this before. And we quote. I would not have thought that i needed to stay this. Let me make something 100 clear to the American Public and Anyone Running for public office. It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept or receive anything of value from a foreign nation in connection with the u. S. Election. This is not a novel concept. Any Political Campaign that receives an offer of a prohibited donations from a foreign source should report that offer to the federal bureau of investigation. This is where we are, and it all comes as the president is just a couple of weeks away from a planned meeting with Vladimir Putin when they attend that g20 summit in japan. In an interview yesterday, putin [ speaking Foreign Language ] meanwhile, there are also new developments tonight involving two of the president s closest aides, White House Press secretary Sarah Sanders is leaving after almost two years on the job. In fairness, we havent seen her a lot. She talks to reporters in the driveway sometimes but its been 94 days since she held a press briefing. And an independent federal watchdog appointed by the president is urging the white house to remove Kellyanne Conway for violating the hatch act, which even interns at the white house learn prohibits white house politicking by public employees, because ideally youre working for the American People. Conway has repeatedly weighed in on political candidates over the past year. Here she is talking about the 2020 democrats. If he were a republican running against him, they would immediately call him a sexist. Id also ask him, what exactly have you accomplished that qualifies you to be the president. Ive yet to see president ial timber, i just see president ial wood ships. Amy klobuchar seems to be very nice unless youre on her staff. Elizabeth warren is running for president. She tried to appropriate somebody elses ethnicity. So much to talk about. So little time. Here for our leadoff discussion, peter baker, correspondent for the new york times, frank figliuzzi, mimi rocah and jeremy bash, former chief of staff at cia and pentagon, former chief counsel for the house intel committee. Jeremy, id like to begin with you. Your reaction to the president s words now over 24 hours later. They do linger. What innocent person says what the president of the United States said in this interview . What innocent person says this was not illegal, in fact, i would do it again . I think it is clear consciousness of guilt that he called for russian assistance. He received russian assistance. He welcomed russian assistance and he has rewarded russian assistance. And whats most astonishing, brian, is that he has said in the 2020 campaign not only would he welcome it again but that he urges everybody else to accept it as well. It is the complete undermining and breakdown of our election system if the person at the top of the political food chain, the president , says the rules dont apply. Frank figliuzzi, id like to play a clip from a former colleague of yours, Andrew Mccabe appearing today with nicolle wallace. The comments i heard yesterday only reaffirm for me the concerns that we had in may of 2017. If i am a foreign Intelligence Officer today, the message i got from the president s own words yesterday was it is open season on u. S. Political figures in 2020. So, frank, play it the way you usually do. Hyperbole aside, what are the real world consequences of what the president said yesterday . How will they stay with us . Well, were going to see an increase, perhaps more than ever before in recent history, in attempts at Foreign Governments to meddle and interfere with our upcoming election and were going to see it at all levels. And heres why. They now see more than ever a permissive respective environment. Today around the world in world capitals, Intelligence Service directors were having translators translate the president s words. They were scratching their heads saying, did he just say he would be receptive and not report to the fbi if we gave him research on his opponents . Answer, yes, thats what he said. And so any Intelligence Service worth their salt is saying, how can we get this done, get him vulnerable and compromised by having him listen to our stuff and yet not come across the radar screen of the fbi, the cia, et cetera . So theyre going to get more sophisticated at doing it. Theyre going to try to do it. Theyre going to do it in a way that doesnt make them look like foreign Intelligence Services and its going to get very, very complicated. Usually the attorney general would be the one to step in, call timeout and say, look, mr. President , youre wrong, i have the back of the fbi, they are our premier Law Enforcement agency. He hasnt done it. Weve heard nothing from him. And the Intelligence Services around the world are saying lets make this happen. Mimi rocah, i never thought a document from the federal Election Commission could be sobering. Ive never seen a document like that from the federal Election Commission. Question for you, did the president increase his legal peril at all yesterday . I think he did. I mean, and, you know, its striking to me that one of the things nancy pelosi said today is that this is, you know, the president doesnt know right from wrong. I really respectfully beg to differ with that. I think if anything what this statement in the interview shows is that he knows he just doesnt care. And it puts in a new light all of the conduct, i think, that mueller documented because, you know, he spent trump spent so long telling us it didnt happen. I didnt meet with the russians. Yes, i met with the russians, but it wasnt about the election. Okay, we met with them, but, now, you know, were at the point where its okay to do this. Thats where hes been all along. Its just now that hes admitting it, but i think it puts that conduct in a new light of, yeah, i knew i wasnt supposed to be doing this. Thats why i wouldnt admit doing it. But now im admitting it. I just dont care that its wrong. You know, to the extent that willfulness, intent is an element of any of these crimes, he has blown through the water on that. I mean, you barely would need anything other than that interview to show the president s intent to not only commit a crime in the future, which hes announced and admitted, but i think puts light on his conduct in the past as well. Peter baker, any Senior Republicans who are in the president s orbit and by default in your orbit expressing real regret . All we have to go on so far is the president tweeting about wales. Yeah, actually, there was a pretty universal reaction against this by republicans on capitol hill today. You saw any number of republican senators say pretty flatly, no, thats not what youre supposed to do, the answer is supposed to be no. You just heard Lindsey Graham, marsha black burn, lisa murkowski, one republican after another saying, no, this isnt the kind of thing i would do. What about Christopher Steele . Thats a different situation, obviously. There is plenty to argue about with regard to the steele dossier. Christopher steele wasnt working for a hostile government, the russians, and he did turn his dossier over to the fbi. The question is what the fbi then did with it to justify, you know, its investigation. So i think the republicans are very uncomfortable with this today. They did not want to see the president revive this. Remember, just a couple of weeks ago with the Mueller Report, it seemed like he had put the russia part of this thing behind him the issue was about obstruction of justice and these subpoenas, but not about russia. Now hes put that question, his relationship with moscow, right back in the center of the american debate. Jeremy bash, what have we done in the meantime to strengthen our elections to fortify them, what have our fine patriotic members of Congress Done in that interest . Well, unfortunately not enough, brian. If you look at the efforts that are across the states, we have so many different election systems, and i think it could have really benefitted from some strong leadership from the federal government, but, of course, states and localities want to do things their own way and i think theres been some reluctance by this administration to acknowledge the deep vulnerabilities we have in our election system. We heard reports about the foreign interference in two places in florida. Places where the vote tabulation systems have been infected potentially with malicious code. So i think this is a very unresolved issue and our defenses are down going into 2020. Frank figliuzzi, the president of the United States just declared publicly his fbi director is wrong, and i hate to disagree with the white house, he wasnt talking about comey, he was talking about director wray. How must it be inside that institution right now . Oh, the worlds getting very, very small at the hoover building and it must feel very isolating because as i said earlier, its the attorney general that you rely on to have your back. And so on the topic of what were doing about our elections, even if the fbi said to the attorney general we need x number of agents, x number of dollars, department of Homeland Security comes in and says we want to bolster Cyber Security in the following states and voting precincts. If the administration isnt tuned into that, isnt supportive of that, that money, those resources, that manpower is not going to happen. So what we need to hear from, really, is ask the secretary of Homeland Security, the acting secretary of Homeland Security. Ask the fbi director, do you have what you need . Have you gotten everything youve asked for to secure the 2020 election . And ill bet you the answer is no. Mimi rocah, lets just take a brief sidebar to mr. Flynn, who is awaiting sentencing. Dumped his last lawyer and has taken on a new one. We know this thanks to the president s tweet this morning. General michael flynn, the 33year war hero who has served with distinction, has not retained a good lawyer, he has retained a great lawyer, sidney powell. Best wishes and good luck to them both. Sidney powell is a frequent contributor on fox news. Well known in the republican legal world. What does this mean to you . Does anything get your attention there . I mean, the whole thing really gets your attention, and i cant tell you exactly where this is going, but, look, first of all, flynn is about to be sentenced. This judge has signalled very pretty clearly that he was planning on sending flynn to jail, and we have no reason to think yet that that would have changed. I think flynn is, you know, going down a different path. He thinks, well, if im going to go to jail with this judge then i might as well roll the dice on a pardon, and trump is certainly signaling that he is amenable to that by that tweet. I thought that tweet was astonishing because, first of all, he supposedly fired flynn because hi was not an honest man who lied to the Vice President. For him to now go back hes doing the dance that he did with manafort and with cohen, oh, hes a good man, hes a good man. Hes holding out something for him now, the possibility of the pardon, and this at a time when flynn is being subpoenaed to congress. There is still very much flynn could do in his cooperation, in his testimony now with congress. And trump knows that. And i think this is his way of holding out this pardon, holding out the possibility. It hasnt worked out for manafort so i dont know why flynn would trust him. Manafort is sitting in jail. But that seems to be where this is going. And peter baker, the other news of this day, the recommendation that the white house fire Kellyanne Conway for violating the hatch act, which used to matter and the departure of the press secretary where they used to hold daily briefings. Yeah, thats, you know, another day in trump world. Were busy, you know, reexamining his relationship with russia. The staff is turning over. Illegalities are being alleged. The office of special counsel that made this complaint against Kellyanne Conway is not related to Robert Mueller. Its a part of the government that existed long before this presidency, will presumably exist long after it goes. In order to enforce workplace rules on politics in the federal government and what they said was that Kellyanne Conway was using her official position as a white House Counselor, and from the setting of the white house, no less, to engage in partisan politics. Shes basically dismissed their relevance. She said a couple of weeks ago blah, blah, blah, youre not going to stop me by waving around the hatch act and they followed up with this complaint saying that she had violated the law and the president should fire her. Now, the white house defended her. They sent out a memo today drafted by the white House Counsel saying that the special counsel overreached and was misinterpreting the law. Its hard to make an argument that is biased because this special counsel was appointed by none other than President Trump himself two years ago. Once again you see the president at odds with the fbi director he appointed and the special counsel he appointed. One of those evenings where our public numbness seems very acute. Greatly appreciate you all starting us off tonight. And coming up for us, more on speaker pelosis response to this increasing pressure to impeach. And later well ask a retired fourstar general about a suddenly very tense situation in the gulf of oman and ask the question what could go wrong. As the 11th hour is just Getting Started on a thursday night. I dont know whats going on. Ive done all sorts of research, read earnings reports, looked at chart patterns. Ive even built my own historic trading model. And youre still not sure if you want to make the trade . Exactly. Sounds like a case of analysis paralysis. Is there a cure . Td ameritrades trade desk. They can help gut check your strategies and answer all your toughest questions. Sounds perfect. See, your stress level was here and i got you down to here, ive done my job. Call for a strategy gut check with td ameritrade. [ giggling ] lim a slick chickp [ doorbell ] [ slap ] your nails xfinity home. Cameras. Xfinity home. Disarm the system. Doors open. Morning. Welcome to the neighborhood. Do you like my work . Secure your home with x1 voice control. And have professional monitoring backing you up with xfinity home. Demo at an xfinity store, call or go online today. I dont think theres anything more divisive we can do than to impeach a president of the United States, and so you have to handle it with great care. It has to be about the truth and the facts to take you to whatever decision has to be there. It should by no means be done politically. You shouldnt impeach politically. You shouldnt not impeach politically. But you we must always remember we have a responsibility for oneness. Despite the president s stated willingness to accept Campaign Dirt from a foreign power, the House Speaker is no closer to opting for the impeachment course of action. Nor to be fair is her caucus of over 200 individual politicians. So far, however, 62 democrats are in favor, including most of the dems on the house judiciary committee. Lots of crickets among republicans today. Not surprising. Its become rather stand. Here are a few exceptions. I ran for president twice, i ran for governor once, i ran for senate twice. Ive never had any attempt made by a Foreign Government to contact me or a member of my staff, and had that occurred, i would have contacted the fbi immediately. Well, apparently, according to the washington post, Lindsey Graham explained to the president under what circumstances a campaign should report outreach from foreign entities to the fbi. Helpful. With us tonight to talk about it, alexie mccammen, politics reporter for axios and Michael Steele, former chairman of the Republican National committee. Former Lieutenant Governor of the great state of maryland and the only host we know of of the Michael Steele podcast. Good evening and welcome to you both. Michael, i have a brief snippet of Mitch Mcconnell appearing on fox news tonight to play for you. Well discuss it on the other side. They just cant let it go, laura. You know, i said weeks ago case closed. We got the Mueller Report. The only objective evaluation that will be conducted. Nobody has any confidence that the Democratic House is going to engage in any kind of appropriate oversight. The case is closed. Why dont we move on . Michael steele, nothing to see here. Nothing to see here. It is the attitude that reflects the relationship between the speaker and the president where it is very clear the dominant player is the president , not just because hes president but because he has individuals like mcconnell and others who are on the ballot coming up next year who have a cantakerous base behind them in their respective states and districts reminding him that you are to stay appropriately in line at all times, no matter what the president tweets, no matter what the president says, you know your place and you know the response. And so in light of the president s, you know, comments yesterday with george stephanopoulos, that is not the response that should be coming from the majority leader of the senate nor one of the leaders of the republican party. But thats the best youre going to get. And alexia, i have something to play for you. It occurred in this studio in the chair michael currently occupies. Last night this is former republican and former republican member of Congress David jolly. The eyes of the nation tonight must look to nancy pelosi. It is not her fault that this moment has occurred. She has not had a hand in Donald Trumps behavior, but she occupies the highest Constitutional Office outside the white house. This is the moment where were begging for leadership. So, alexie, the question to you becomes, did you pick up any change in belief or behavior among the democrats today . I like david jolly as a human. Weve been on panels together. But respectfully, i think that he is probably the last person nancy pelosi is listening to right now. Her comments today reflected very clearly that she is listening to herself and her fellow Democratic Leaders in the house who are really sort of staying strong on this no impeachment plan despite some of the growing calls, not only from folks in her own caucus but the 2020 democrats running for president. I find it fascinating. At first i was annoyed they were talking about impeachment because none of the voters were asking them about impeachment. I think its fascinating with nancy pelosi, this juxtaposition between herself and 2020 democrats who are running at once to replace donald trump but still calling for him to be impeached. That brings up a larger question for Nancy Pelosis many reasons why she doesnt think impeachment is the road to go down right now when she has seen all the Different ThingsPresident Trump has done as evidenced in the Mueller Report and said as his most comments with abc news. All right. Michael steele, you wanted to put a quick word in before we to that point, i think the key thing to recognize is that nancy pelosi has a smart political antenna, and shes reading things and picking up sounds and vibrations that others in the political process arent. She knows where the earth is moving on this issue, and shes not going to move her party there just yet. All right. Well stay right there for a moment. Alexi and michael have agreed to stay with us over this break. Coming up, the roster for the aforementioned debates in miami has been revealed. Heres a hint. Not everybody made the cut. When we come back. Its a new Buick Envision. And i got it with wifi for all of your wifi stuff, Wireless Charging for your phone. Cool wait til you check out the back thats a lot of groceries. Look at my strong man dont patronize me. The new Buick Envision is full of surprises. Current eligible gm owners get up to 16 percent below msrp on most of these 2019 buick models. Thats just over 7 thousand on this envision premium. We are less than two weeks away from the first democratic debates, which you may have heard will be on this network, and with so many candidates in the mix, not everyone is invited. For the dnc, this was what the nfl calls cutdown day. Here are the 20 people who will make the main stage in some form or fashion over two hot nights in miami. To make the cut, the candidates had to hit at least 1 in three approved polls or get 65,000 unique campaign contributions. Four candidates fell short of both those requirements. Here they are, montana governor steve bullock, former senator mike gravel, miramar mayor and massachusetts congressman seth moulton. Remaining with us tonight or our friends Alexi Mccammond and Michael Steele. So, michael, the snarky way of putting this is oprahs political adviser make the cut, but a democrat who won a great big red state did not. Would you be angry . I would be livid at this point. In one against its an arbitrary standard. Okay, you need to draw the line somewhere. I take a different approach to this whole thing. First out of the gate, first round of this whole thing, put everybody on the national stage, give everybody an opportunity to make their case to the American People. This is not just this is not just playing to iowa, new hampshire, nevada and South Carolina. This is playing this is a national debate. Because if it were just in iowa, nevada, South Carolina and new hampshire, then, okay, thats a different story, but this is a national opportunity. So now youve told four candidates, regardless of what you think of their chances, everybody has the same chance at this point. You know, the difference between, you know, the number one guy and the last guy is, what, 18 points, 20 points . So give everybody that opportunity. But since they dont have it, youve now created this even with the folks who are going to be going the second night, youre going to have some issues there, but, you know, its the process. Alexi, tomorrow night is this kind of like seating in groups on southwest. We find out what the onstage mix is going to be, which, of course, will dictate how they do their prep for the debate. Thats exactly right. And some of the campaigns ive been talking to have privately been talking about, you know, who is going to play Bernie Sanders or who is going to play cory booker and they really just dont know yet, right . Because they dont know who is going to be on that debate stage with them. I think that will be one of the really fascinating dynamics to your question to michael just now if there is somebody like andrew yang or Marianne Williamson on the stage with joe biden. Their political experience is totally different. The things they talk about will be totally different. I think that will be a fascinating way to see the nuances in all these candidates positions and also it reinforces this idea that in a lot of ways this is one of the more pure nominating contests weve seen for democrats in a long time. The simple fact that though not everyone made it on the stage because of the qualifications and thresholds, youll still have someone like andrew yang share a stage potentially with joe biden. Michael, 15 seconds of brilliance. I keep thinking about numbness. Do you think there is a chance that what the president said yesterday will move the needle of Public Opinion . Thats very hard to say. I think at least the public response has been one of incredulous disbelief. I mean, i think people are really kind of like, really . Yeah. But lets see now how this narrative plays itself out. Again, what helps the president is that there are no consequences and that his own party is not stepping into that space with any real concern about what he said. If theyre not concerned, why should i be . Wow. Thats a whole separate conversation. Right. Our thanks to two of our friends. Well have you back. Alexi mccammond, Michael Steele, greatly appreciate you joining us on this thursday night. Coming for us, our next stop on the road to miami, heres a hint, its larger than rhode island. Number two, they call themselves the first state. Its right there on their license plates. Steve kornacki back at the big board when we continue. [narrator] do you have less energy than you used to . When i was young, into my teens and when i went into college and played college tennis, i could play all day long and never get tired. As i got older, i started noticing a change in energy. [narrator] scientist have discovered that after you reach age 40, your body produces less vital nitric oxide than it did when you were in your 20s. With less nitric oxide you have less energy. So how do you get your energy back . Take one atom of nitrogen and bond it with one atom of oxygen. Boom. You just created nitric oxide, the miracle molecule your body needs to help support heart health and help give you more energy. Now you can jumpstart your nitric oxide levels with the circulation superfood of superbeets by humann. 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What youve just put in your body is actually going to help you sitting at your desk for eight hours. Its this longlasting battery life. [narrator] for a free 30day supply of superbeets with your first order, call the number on your screen. Thats the number on your screen now. From the practice squad to the roster. As we mentioned, cutdown day for the Democratic Party, we now know who will make up the field for the first democratic president ial debates. 13 days away on this very network. And were continuing our series, the road to miami. Thats the one where Steve Kornacki tells us everything we need to know about the states along the bustling i95 coordinator. Last night if youve been following along, you know steve was in pennsylvania. Tonight hes crossing over into the first state, delaware, represented in the senate for decades by a man who so badly wants to become president. Back at the big board tonight is our own National CorrespondentSteve Kornacki. Hey, steve. Here we go, brian. We are making our way south. We said goodbye, pennsylvania, hello to the first state, delaware, home of the university of delaware, the fighting oh of course, delaware, the toll booth. Sir, youre holing up traffic. Brian, youre going to have to give me a second here. Im sorry. How much is this . That will be 4. This road is like 15 miles long. Its actually 11. This is highway robbery. All right, well i should pick up my dollar. Sorry, sir. See you later, outoftowner. Thanks a lot. Im going to drive away from this toll booth. As you can see, brian, i am steaming mad at the toll i was just charged, but this is part of life in delaware, unfortunately. Here we are on the delaware turnpike. It is only 11 miles long. 4 total for the toll, that is 36 a mile. This is one of the most expensive stretches of interstate in the country. Only the chicago sky way more expensive, 36 cents a mile to get on these 11 miles of the delaware turnpike. This is it. Its a small state, a small stretch of 95, but, boy, they make your wallet notice it. But we are on 95 in delaware and that means we are not far from something else, the Biden Welcome Center right off of 95. You mentioned it, joe biden, that name is synonymous with this state, that name is synonymous with delaware politics. Joe bidens career in delaware politics, it dates all the way back to 1970. He was elected to the Newcastle County council, the wilmington area. He was 29 years old in 1972. Took on an incumbent candidate. A big upset that year. Got himself reelected all these terms. Obama picked him to be his Vice President on the ticket. Thats joe bidens track record in delaware. Of course, now, trying to be president. Heres the thing, delaware does not produce a lot of president s, does not produce a lot of president ial prospects. In modern times, remember this guy . Pierre s. Dupont, ran for the republican nomination in 88. Biden ran in 88, pretty much got nowhere. Dropped out early. 2008, didnt get anywhere in the president ial race. Got on the ticket with obama. In fact, there has never been a candidate from delaware who has won the presidency, and yet a month plus into this president ial campaign for 2020, for joe biden, there he is, atop the field on the democratic side. Weve been showing it here every night in the polls against trump joe biden leading right now. Who knows where this is going to go. But, really, joe bidens never been closer to the presidency and delaware as a state has probably never been closer to the presidency than it is right now. We will see as this campaign unfolds. Do they get closer and closer and closer and actually get there or do they end up looking back at this moment and saying so close and yet so far away . Wow. Cant wait for tomorrow night. Steve kornacki, our thanks. A toll taker who looked a lot like bria from our staff. 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Its easy to find the medicare plan that saves you money, so you can enjoy more of the things you love. Call now to take advantage of this free service. Now is the time to update your coverage or enroll for the first time. Call healthmarkets now. Call the number on your screen call this number now. There it is. The United States is blaming iran for attacks on two tankers in the middle east today. The japanese and norweigian ships both ruptured and exploded at sea in the gulf of oman sneer the strait of hormuz. Owners of both ships say all the crew have been safely evacuated. U. S. Navy said the uss bainbridge was operating in the area and provided immediate assistance. The news, of course, comes amid soaring tensions between the u. S. And iran, and for good measure the u. S. Has already found and named the aggressor in no time. The secretary of state was assigning blame here. It is the assessment of the United States government that the Islamic Republic of iran was responsible for the attacks that occurred in the gulf of oman today. This assessment is based on intelligence, the weapons used, the level of expertise needed to execute the operation, recent similar iranian attacks on shipping and the fact that no proxy Group Operating in the area has the resources and proficiency to act with such a high degree of sophistication. Secretary pompeo provided no detailed proof of that assertion. The japanese Prime Minister shinzo abe was visiting iran at the time of the attack, and, remember, one of the vessels flies under a japanese flag. Iran is denying any involvement in all of this, calling these incidents beyond suspicious. Just last month youll recall four other tankers were damaged in similar though less severe incidents. Iran also denied any involvement back then. To sort this out were joined again tonight by general berry mccaffrey, retired u. S. Army fourstar, heavily decorated combat veteran of vietnam, a u. S. Ground commander in the gulf war and a veteran of that region. General, do you buy this instant u. S. Accusation . Do you buy the intel behind it and what, in plain english, is going on here . Theres very little doubt in my own mind that this was an iranian action. Probably combat swimmers or small boats affixing pretty small explosive mines to these six ships which have now been attacked. If it was a Naval Warfare mine or a torpedo, it would have been a catastrophic incident, so i think we ought to assume the ruv lugsary guards Maritime Force carried out these attacks. Theyre signaling that theyre desperate. The iranian economy is in terrible trouble. Theyve got to get out of the box. Theyre going to threaten to go back to using their facilities to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons. Theyre going to try and isolate us in europe, and to my surprise, to be honest, theyre now taking military action to signal their ability to close down the straits of hormuz. So pretty serious situation for the region. Okay. So if that happens. If the straits get closed down, ive heard it said, you know, the lights go out in japan in pretty short order. What happens then . Well, you make a good point. I mean, probably a third of the entire sea born shipments of oil goes out through the strait of hormuz. There is no question in my mind, if the straits get closed, iranians will fight, and wed be joined by the gulf coast states. A war in the persian gulf in the sea of oman would be ugly. Wed have to go after the maritime assets. Go after the air defense systems. Go after their combat aviation capability. Go after their submarines. Pretty constricted waters, which would reduce the capability of the u. S. Navy to operate. Its to nobodys benefit. By the way, the first thing the iranians would do would be to go after saudi oil production. So i dont think the israelis or the saudis, never mind the iranians, clearly think this would be to their advantage but the iranians are desperate and theyre search for a way out. And you know the political realities in this country, general. What cautions would you give those who may be secretly or not so secretly jonesing to attack iran . Well, i dont think there is anybody in uniform that thinks this is a great opportunity for the United States. There is no certainly there is no will among the American People. There is no will in congress. If we ended up in highintensity operations, there is going to be a lot of bloodshed on both sides. The United States clearly would overpower the iranian air and sea assets in a reasonably short period of time, but there would be Collateral Damage amongst the gulf coast states Oil Facilities and the worlds oil market would be in an uproar. So, again, i cant imagine anyone that gives it some thought would think this is a good outcome. The revolutionary guard may be out of control. Trump administration besides putting economic constraints on the country identified the revolutionary guard as a terrorist organization. So their personal pocketbooks are being hit. It may be that theyre carrying out these actions in a rogue manner. All right. Youve given us a lot to think about. Were going to fit in a break. General mccaffrey has agreed to stay with us. When we come back, well have more on this significant week for our country, for that man and the trump white house. Im just a normal person who got an awful skin condition. With uncontrolled moderatetosevere eczema, or atopic dermatitis, you feel like youre itching all the time. And you never know how your skin will look. Because deep within your skin an overly sensitive immune system could be the cause. So help heal your skin from within, with dupixent. 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As someone who has fought for this country, fought for the just the idea of this country and our flag, how were you struck by what he said about his ability to accept Campaign Dirt from an outside power . You know, brian, ive taught National Security studies in American Government for the better part of eight years at college level, and im at a loss for words to understand the trump administration. There is an element of lawless behavior to what were seeing. And, you know, we say we got three coequal branches of government, but its really a government of checks and balances, and the predominant power is in the u. S. Congress. Theyre not going to exercise that power. So were left with a president that unilaterally is making decisions that are in clear violation of the law, and this isnt going to be settled until the 2020 election. So, you know, the question is, do we do we arbitrate our disputes in the court of law or in bipartisan debate in the congress or do we have someone unilaterally declaring what what the law is . Its a dangerous situation for the republic. Meantime, what about those who serve . What about all those in uniform spread all over the globe . What about the american whose Business Card says he or she is a Software Consultant and theyre in deep cover Walking Around the streets of a hostile capital city right now tonight as we have this conversation . What about their spirit and morale and work ethic . Well, i think the, you know, 2. 1 million men and women in the armed forces, active guard and reserve, are going to clearly obey the legal orders of the commander in chief, the president of the United States, and the acting secretary of defense. So i dont think there is any question in my mind that the sense of discipline, of obedience to the law in the armed forces will be unaffected. The same as the intelligence agency. As you say, the cia, nsa, fbi, federal marshal service, these are people carrying guns and defending the American People. Were going to be okay. The question is how are we going to deal with the president if he says im going to ignore the law . Thats the question at hand. We have 30 seconds remaining. What to do about the kind of public numbness, that as i said earlier, seems so acute on a night like tonight. Yeah, well, you know, nbcs got me taking part in the twitterverse and im bombarded with viewpoints along this line. I think, look, the countrys still in good shape. The economys good. The American People are lawabiding people. Theyre educated. Theyre hardworking. So i dont think we have a problem with the electorate. But weve become divided. One of the things we need to do, the Democratic Party better sit down and think why do 40 of the American People support this president . Some of them may be racist and deplorables, but many of them have an anxiety about the way the governments been working, so we need a fresh start in the country. General Barry Mccaffrey, our thanks, as always, for joining our broadcast. And that is our thursday edition here in new york. Thank you so very much for being here with us and good night from our nbc news headquarters. As the raptors stun the gold state warriors taking home the