This all gives them all more reason for the russians to say, you know, the using ukraine as a surrogate is a proxy against russia is all the more real and that, that nato is not going to cease and desist that is not going to look at the facts on the ground, its not seriously going to talk about negotiations. Mean this is quite extraordinary. Go ahead, sir. Well, nato is committed. It exists for the attempt to destroy russia, to dismember russia, to impose regime change. So they can loo, russia. That is the purpose of nato. So yes, ukraine is, is a proxy. And so are all the other new members of nato and nato, from its very founding 1949 when it was committed to the destruction of the soviet union. It exists as really a criminal alliance of pirates and looters in an effort to destroy the russia today and earlier. So we shouldnt be surprised that theyre using ukraine as a proxy and they have no intention of ending. It wont come from a nato decision to end this war. Karen and that war may become at a certain point and they cant pursue it. Theyve been really set back. That doesnt mean they will stop. Other attempts, other countries. Im sure they wont stop here here and if we can put it into context here. I mean, if you look in American Foreign policy, what is the Strategic Value of ukraine . I mean, its never been. All of a sudden it is. And i would even say in a european context that ukraine doesnt play any planning strategic role in their security thinking. But all of a sudden it does. And this is creating a moral hazard on for both sides. I would say go ahead parents. I think i think thats right. And also if you look at the arc of it, and we will talk about nato being a proxy, it is funded by the United States. Okay, so its a criminal pirate alliance. I agree with that funded and managed for the most part by the United States. So it is, it is a u. S. Actor in many ways. And if i was a european, i would be ashamed that have a headquarters of nato there. And, and to celebrate nato because it really celebrates puppet tree. But if you look at the longer trend all the way back to, well lets start with clinton. We can go further. But bill clinton and yugoslavia, the break up of yugoslavia whats, whats on the other side of that . Well, former russian territories, and that was a nato operation. Then we had invasion occupation of afghanistan. And course iraq was a nato operation as well, the rock against iran, but look at afghanistan, 20 years in afghanistan, a nato operation in many ways. And nato was part of that. Why is not anywhere near europe, but it doesnt matter. It was part of it. And then we abruptly left, you know, but 19 years too late. But we left already preparation for, you know, making a new theater. And ukraine had had been in place. But the summer that we left afghanistan, 6 months before we left, were simultaneously working in planning for whats happening in the ukraine today. And again, yes, nato caused that United States cause that was, that is a theater facilitated by the west. And russia has responded to it, in fact, in a conservative way so far. Im really glad you said that nikolai, where we had over in the beginning of this week here and reaction to the sabotage the crimean bridge. And i would also say north stream is that we had of 2 days of missile barrage, essentially knocking out 30 percent of the cleaning, the electricity grid. The pain dial can go much, much higher. Nobody seems to be reacting to that. Okay. I mean, this is shocking, all our roofs, which is kind of pales in comparison to what the United States does when it goes into a country. But there doesnt seem to be any kind of rational reaction. Its like, oh, well, you know, we need to start putting everybody needs, this are putting the brakes on these here, but its just the opposite. Thats happening. We have the g 20 coming up. Why has no intention of talking to prudent . I mean, isnt this a time to talk nikolai . Oh, well, which is president ial advisor . Mr. Wolfe recently responded to all these statements made by the ukranian government that they would never engage in negotiations with russia. Ok, by simply saying, the famous bond line never say never. And i think the assumption is that the ukraine, you may leave for all its fervor now to prosecute the war will nevertheless be forced to face. Reality is on the ground if the tide of war should turn visibly against them. And that i think is why were having 2 wars conducted simultaneously. One of the actual military campaign of the progress of which as far as i can tell, is very murky and, and, and full of contradictions of the other is the propaganda war in which the United States is, has and its allies and been able to muster. And create an artificial environment of support of roughly 90 percent for ukraine. And much of this as a study by the university of adelaide has shown much of this is artificial and created by boss. But nevertheless, it forms part of the environment which allows the west to continue to prosecute this war. Well, its interesting, karen, im sorry, sarah, you know, if you have bad narratives, it creates bad outcomes when it comes to policy kind of reflecting on what would nichol i just said here might be the problem i have at this point in time. If nobody wants to negotiate, then why should russia pursue its military goals and ukraine . I mean, theres nobody to talk to. And nobody wants to go on forever, particularly people in russia. I can tell you that. But if theres no interlocutor, then whats the point of trying to figure out what the other guy is thinking other than the propaganda that weve been hearing here . Russia will continue achieving its goals, whatever they may particularly be. Go ahead, sarah. Well, really, russia has no choice because although, again and again from every direction they have called for negotiations and have from the beginning. Nato, which is a us commanded military force. Us equipped military force in europe and far beyond has shown no interest in negotiations of any kind and stopped cold when ukraine even began to discuss negotiations. So it is u. S. Policy makers who are refusing any form of negotiation and we got to take note of where the refusal is coming from the interest of us policy makers. And this is true, republican and democrat, this is true for lately the entire us establishment. They have no interest in ending this war. They are interested in dragging it out and seeing who else they can drag into it. It is absolutely pulling down the you can nomic lee and creating a normal division, an opposition, and that is our position is important. People are making themselves heard, but the plan of all of the rulers, of all of the Decision Makers is to drag this war out. To drag russia in every way that they can. And so, once a war started and, and engaged, russia has no choice, but to continue militarily until theres a real effort, it negotiation, but to very dangerous with what makes a dangerous karen before we go to the break here is that, you know, theres this talk of Nuclear Weapons, and id like to point out to our viewers that didnt come from the russian side. It came from the western side, invoking Nuclear Weapons, crating fear mongering as usual because this is whats being set up here. Is a trap to make russia over react and say, oh well we have something must be done. Is they all we say here. Thats where it is very dangerous here because this is brinkman ship. Go ahead. Karen, it is, it is brinkman ship. And its also preparing the propaganda landscape for the explosion accident or on purpose of some sort of Nuclear Weapon or weapon of mass destruction, of some sort in preparing people to expect it so that when it happens, we will blame it on the west. Well blame it on russian. Of course when, when, in fact, it is very likely that if it happens, it will be something that we have been behind much is the north stream attacks and much is the cropping up of the Ukrainian Government over the last. I dont know how many years. So yeah its, its a, its a if theres a game being played in brinkmans ship its, its a dangerous game and i think, i hope you know, but, but if you know, if there is use of Nuclear Weapons, its going to be in ukraine. Ok. I mean, this is your ally. Ok. This is whats really insane about is the people they will suffer the most by decision made in washington. Well, actually, you know, we talk about us resisting any emergence of a multi polar world, which we know is whats behind it. We say, well, we dont rush you to rise up, we dont want china to rise up. In fact, the United States also does not want the you thats rise up. Not that it was. Thats a lot of financial problems or issues, but im not going there. We have, we have to go to a hard break, and after about hard break will continue. Our discussion on naples was staying with ah, ah, ah, well, oh, oh, oh, oh, a ah. Oh oh oh boy, is this the best of both . No issue. My for the mobile one, the vision annual g d p per capita is about 4000. 00 euros. Last doesnt weve got a normal dollar a washer parish live up a man, a primary coffee seal from quinn, pursuing chip, put them in your printers where youll find them all bellanca, marcy, mitchell and louis thought they would have thought of unemployment is off the chance. Moldova territorial integrity and sovereignty. We respect a country which enjoys Financial Support from the u. S. And the youth is constantly roth, by political and corruption scandals. Oh, but all that didnt stop mo, google obtaining you candidate status in 2022. Ah ah ah ah ah, well oh oh oh, i know. Ah ah, welcome back across the dock were all things are considered on Peter Labelle to remind you were discussing natos war with ok. Go back to neglect by last count at least that there been 8 rounds of sanctions against russia, with no discernible effect on life everyday life here. Id like to point out if you were involved in international finance, youve got screwed. Ok because of the swiss system. But other than that very, very little so far. Ok to be careful what i say. But, you know, we see i seeds, lensky sending out tom demands that the u. S. Underwrite its budget for this seat, for the rest of this year and all of next year. I mean, it seems to me, im sorry, im very cynical. This is a pretty good grift. So yes, by i was struck by an editorial in the economist magazine recently that pointed out that while europe and the west is sinking into recession, rush is coming out of it. Knowing the ideological bent of the economist. This is an extraordinary admission. And i think it must have been very difficult for them to write Something Like that. Im glad peter, as you mentioned the word brinkman ship, because the, the key error here is that the personal leading the brinkman ship is in fact doing so because they think they know how far to push and when to step down. And that is not always the case, especially when your ally is in a feverish delusion about the possibility of achieving success and on the ground militarily. The last point i want to make, and i dont think is, is made often enough, is that on a geo political level for the west and for the United States, it strikes me as an error of colossal proportions to when you crane at the expense of losing russia, that is just the kind of trade off in geo political strategy that you never want to make. And theyre both very, very poorly for the future of the west. I think it, let me go to sara. I mean, i absolutely agree with nikolai what he had just say here, but i mean, what is ukraine . I mean, what, what did they talking about . Again, political so much 10 year plan for ukraine. I dont know what ukraine is, right . A, this last 4 of its regions. I mean, the more the west helps from 2014 to the present, the smaller the country gets. And, and of course, when we see the infrastructure, the country being degraded because of this conflict here. I mean, i dont see what the price is. Okay. I dont see what the price of american hegemony all through europe. It has no productivity. What kind of price is it . Europeans will be so poor. They cant buy anything from america. I dont understand any of the economics of this here. Go ahead, sarah. This war was never meant for the benefit of anyone in the ukraine. Ukraine went from being the most prosperous public of the soviet union to being the poorest country of europe. After the 2014 coo, what u. S. Domination and control run by a fascist, really a gang of nazis meant for the ukraine was mass privatization cuts in every social program. Destruction of the unions in every way alluding of the economy that was fine by the u. S. It was their intention. And it bound ukraine. All the tighter to u. S. Policy makers made them totally dependent on every handout such as afghanistan was. Its impossible to even picture the rate today of, of impoverishment in the ukraine. So ukraine is being used as a proxy force as a military force, but its also, its economy is under the control. But, but sarah, but garage and, but we all know, we all know that biden is sending billions and billions more the and the you has the step up with more and more euros i think we all have a pretty good idea where that moneys going. I called the, the hunter biden effect if you know what i mean. Well, its certainly so many of the weapons that goal as soon as they are over the border, they disappear. And we know theres a huge, you know, growing market in this, of, in, in weapons and in the resale of weapons, and all other goods. Its not, its, none of it is for the benefit of the people of ukraine. And even though ukraine wasnt a nato member, or they were forced, their, their military was used and sent to afghanistan sent to a rack, where they operated under u. S. Command. So its not a question of defending ukraine or, or any thing that benefits the people. And yet this policy is a spectacular failure on the part of the us, the sanctions that they sought to impose through this have been a holland blunder and truly boomerang back on, on the u. S. And of course on the e. U. Even more. But the ukraine from the beginning was used and, and they want to continue to use it. Yeah. Although i dont live very dry. Lets meet with real res. Round everyone. There are plenty of people in ukraine that wanted to be used and still like being used. Ok, a karen that it was rank of, of nazi propaganda or its true. Its power. Karen, you know, one of the things that you know there so we can discuss this all we want, but the, the, the biggest picture is, and i guess i call it be december 17th of picture rushes, security demands of the wes dresser. A message, a note, an ultimatum, whatever you want to call it, to nato, and to the United States, it was completely brushed off here. But those things stand that this as i see the, the, the, the west can negotiate, not negotiate, they can arm, they could of money all this but rushes aims. If not change, they will not cease until it desist until their security demands are met. Ok, thats it. Okay, you can do all the, all, you know, the lindsay and bogue and you can all do all that nonsense. But rushes demands have not changed. Ok. And if nato exists or doesnt exist, after its immaterial, russia will get what it wants out of this full stop. Karen . Yeah, i think, i think, fundamentally thats the case. But you gotta look at why the u. S. Is willing to destroy ukraine entirely. And as its use it, you know, previously already as a tool, nothing but a tool for corruption. In fact, one of the things that was that sir didnt mention is the most corrupt nation in europe was ukraine. I mean, is a black hole for any type of corruption and government, money laundering, and that kind of thing. So thats the purpose of ukraine. Its still serving that purpose. To a great extent, i mean all the old weaponry from all the nato countries is being port in without regard to, if it works, if it doesnt work that works together. If anybody can use it, its irrelevant. Were dumping that in that weaponry so that we can then justify to our own populations, you know, new refreshed, defense spending. Meanwhile, the battlefield isnt just ukraine. It is europe, it is germany. It is, you know what you asked the question. We asked the question, why with the u. S. Want a deflated weakened dependent european continent. Why would we want that . Well, you know, the glory days of america were under the Marshall Plan to many of the thinkers that, that is on our foreign policy. They this is, this is glory days. This is the potential for a new era of american dominants globally. Now, of course, their fantasies, theres no doubt, you know, we have 31. 00 trillion dollars in debt. They cant be paid back. You know, were printing money. We this is not a sound dream, its not a sound program, but it is the program that the u. S. Is embracing and it and it really is. It goes beyond corrupt and idiotic it. It actually becomes a little bit on the evil side. Yep. You know, nickel, i mean, i dont want to be a history di tier, but you do remember the morgenthau plan for germany . There was a lot of d destro zation, you know i, i think that its the morgenthau plan for the entire european continent now. Well, it was i, but i forget, i think it was churchill who said the russians dont want war. They want the fruits of war today, were talking about the same objective for the United States as the global head. You mon and i think again, put in is probably more correct and wrong in his analysis of world events. When he says this hedge amman is going to cling to power as long as it possibly can. Its not going to go off quietly into the night. Its going to be a violent effort to claw and hold on to power for as long as possible. Well, i mean, nichol, i, i look at it this way, you look at the crew thats in the, by the ministration right now. Its the same crew from obama. Ok. They look at this is all Unfinished Business here. Im thinking of victoria newland and people like that. Its like they see this is their last chance. One last chance to, to, you know, to humiliate russia, to pull down a few notches and, and in doing so, it in peril. I mean, we are on the brink, weve already used that word here. And it seems to be used in, in the, in the us, in a very casual way. Listening to biden speak. I was terrified that a president is b, nodded. States would speak that way. Nikolai is bizarre to me, that they are, these leaders that you mentioned are appropriating the language of realism to pursue a totally unrealistic and highly ideological liberal International Affairs program. And thats why weve had, i think, the intellectual opposition in the United States, as a difficult time. Busy holding our political leaders to account because theyre talking out of both sides of their mouth and you dont know what theyre actually thinking, except you can intimate that perhaps it is to hold on to power for themselves. Well, i mean, if we go back to the cuban missile crisis, at the end of the day, the 2 leaders to 2 governments understood each other. Were not even close to about right now. Its all the time we have. I want to think my guessing things in Mount Jackson and in jersey city, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. Are the see you next time . Remember cross ah ah, yes. Now i can you . Yes. 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