And we are so excited to have you with us tonight to discuss tim max new book misfire in inside the downfall of the nra. You can find this book and more at east city Bookshop Online at our website on various social media, and we are currently open to customers tuesday through sunday. Before we get started a quick detail if you have any comments or technical issues that you need help with please let drop those in the chat and we will help you help you with those as we can and if you have any questions for tim, please throw those into the q a feature because there will be time for audience questions after the discussion if you havent purchased your book yet. You can do that that by following a link to our website which will be available in the chat. We appreciate independent upon support for authors and indie bookstores, and you can show that support by purchasing your copy through the city bookshop and we still do have signed copies available. And so before i turn it over i just want to do a brief introduction for the two people. Well be talking with tonight. Tim mak is the National Public radios washington investigative correspondent and was one of nprs lead reporters on the Mueller Investigation and the first trump impeachment. While reporting for the daily beast in 2017. He broke the story of russian agent maria bhutena and her connection with the nra. He can often be heard on nprs warning edition and all Things Considered an nprs politics podcast. Shannon watts is the founder of the nations largest Grassroot Group fighting against gun violence moms, demand action for gun sense in america the day after the sandy hook tragedy shannon started a Facebook Group with the message that all americans can and should do more to reduce gun violence the online conversation turned into a Grassroots Movement of americans fighting for Public Safety measures that protect people from gun violence. Moms demand action has established a chapter in every single state in the country and is part of every town for gun safety the largest gun violence production Prevention Organization in the country with over 6 million supporters. So, thank you so much, tim and shannon for being here tonight, and i will turn it over to both of you. Thank you so much and tim. Im so excited to talk to you about a subject that has consumed both of our lives for for many years the nra your new book is amazing and really its the most indepth look weve ever had into the nra. Its not pretty we learn the extent to which the nra is. A laughably corrupt organization something that surprised me is really how weak their leader is Wayne Lapierre. Hes at the center of so much of what is wrong with the nra and if theres anything thats thats clear. And its spelled out in your book. Its really that the nra looks out for themselves. Not their members not america, not gun rights. This is really about how they can amass trips on private jets and lavish dinners cigar Club Membership luxury apartment rentals for their interns. I mean things that are bizarre for the nra, but let alone the fact that theyre a nonprofit allegedly and theres so much friction also within the organization. We have executives undercutting each other at every turn they go behind each others backs and then again sort of a strange figure that that Wayne Lapierre sitting at the top of it seemingly both aware and in different at the same time the book runs through a maze of issues that the nra has had in recent years this boys club frat house culture of an organization the vendors calling all the shots the the russia. Boutina scandal current state of affairs at the organization but ultimately and i think whats most surprising. Is that what we learn is that nothing much has changed in the organization and outside of the organization and in their work on on the issue of gun rights. So tim i want to ask you, you know a little bit about the process. What was it like to write this book . What was it like to do the investigation and and was there anything you uncovered that was surprising or appalling or just sort of bonkers . I can think of a few stories you wrote about that were bonkers, but love to hear your opinion. Well first, let me say shannon. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this q a with us and really appreciate you doing that. Look one thing that was so interesting about doing this project was i kind of wrote it during the pandemic years right one of the big breakthroughs and this isnt really a story in the book. This is kind of a story about a process, you know, one of the big breakthroughs came in 2020 in around the march april time frame when everything was shut down because of covid and one of my sources indicated that the source was willing to provide some documents. What ultimately became hundreds and hundreds of pages of critical source documents . These are secret sort of secret depositions that were filed under seal in court and unavailable to the public but they showed things like Wayne Lapierre talking for a lot hours under oath about what happened inside the nra all of the north millie hollow. Thats Wayne Lapierres close assistant and other major figures in this whole nra saga talking for hours and hours and hours and so this source indicated that that they might be willing to provide some these documents, but all all Public Transit was closed time. I was able to get a cab or anything what i ended up doing was i rented a moped in washington dc and i drove for what seemed like hours and hours and hours and i met an individual in a parking lot in what seemed like the middle of nowhere and the person rolled down the passenger window and said that the documents. Are in the front passenger seat, so i reached in and pulled out the documents put in my backpack and i moped it away. And that and those documents turned out to be kind of one of the main sources one of the main, you know documentary sources for the book. There was so valuable. I mean from an evidentiary standard you have these folks who are saying in their own words under oath. I mean theres a penalty a legal penalty if you if you are to lie under obviously and so they became this Gold Standard. Its Gold Standard for evidence. And thats kind of one of the interesting stories that just kind of happened as a result of doing this. I love a good deepthroat story. Its like you its almost like watergate you met in the parking lot. You know, you Like Exchange the documents you right away on your moped. I dont know if there was a moped in the deep throat story, but we did we did try that. We did try to follow the money in this in misfire. Comments other than giving you substantiary evidence. Was there anything that stood out that was shocking to you that that you just couldnt believe when you read through all those documents, or was it more just context and background . Well, whats so interesting right is as you know, the nra has so many years been this black box. It doesnt really they dont really provide much in the in terms of personality or information about what happens behind the scenes except what they put out in very kind of tight lipped pr messages, right . And so what was really interesting was to find out what was really happening behind the scenes and some of the personalities involved and you hear some of this these stories but to see them in the words of some of the main characters of the story the Wayne Lapierre, so the story was just stunning and so these these transcripts formed a basic understanding of what happened and you fill it out. You know, i i did a hundred and twenty english with people inside the nra universe as part of this and on top of these secret depositions. I also obtain things like internal nra emails and other sort of private nra documents to write this book. So you mentioned personalities and i want to talk more about the nerissimus deeds because its one of my favorite subjects, but i i cant not talk about how you portray Wayne Lapierre. I think most people would think that he was maniacal cunning just this amazing lobbyist who was able to make this special interest the most powerful wealthy special interests, really thats ever existed in our country, but the portrait you paint of him. I think someone said you quoted someone who said he had the backbone of an eclair. Which is really quite a visual, but but hes actually very weak and and sort of ended up where he is by accident. Is that a fair characterization . Hes someone whos over a period of time kind of failed upwards every step of the way, you know, he was someone whos described. By people whove known them for decades has never really wanting to be the head of the nra like his dream is to own an ice cream shop in may right . Like thats like thats an interesting way to look with the head of one of the nations most powerful and controversial organizations. He you know, the book starts with the scene at Wayne Lapierres wedding. Yeah, it starts with wayne not showing up to the ceremony and he want to get married. His best man puts 100 bill on the dashboard and says and i dont think you should get married either can get out of here. We can leave you dont need to do this. Wayne ultimately goes in side the the church. And is kind of bullied almost be rated into talked into this this ceremony and it what follows is this weird event and and attended by all these nra luminaries, right . All these poor people that are important throughout the book and theyre watching as the super weird ceremony happens where windlapse here cant make eye contact with his bride. And like theres a reason to pay theres a reason to to tell the story right Wayne Lapierrez described by people whove known him for very long time as we willed as someone who isnt assertive is super anxious really scared and and kind of someone who when a mass shooting happens. Hes less concerned about the victims or even the issue. Hes worried mostly in primarily and firstly about his own personal safety and he begins this kind of pit of selfpity where hes worried. Oh, oh my gosh. This is gonna be bad for me personally. Is his major thought after Mass Shootings . Um, this is someone though in the anecdote has a point or these anecdotes have a point which is to try to explain why the nra instances dire financial and legal trouble. You have to understand that the head of this organization is so easily pushed around and the people who the people who surround him have realized that they can get what they want from him. If only they pressure away in la pierre hard enough or they yell at him long enough that hes eventually going to approve millions of dollars on in unwise or selfdealing contracts to vendors the nra or these golden parachutes to former executives who worked there for a really really long time and then when they leave they get paid incredible amounts of money to do basically nothing at all. Were talking about a lot of the allegations of corruption that im sure will be talked about this evening all that bubbling up in part because wayne likes chaos or or his personality at least leads to it. In the book to that point you describe ways that nra executives ignored maybe purposely circumvented the organizations own internal controls, which were meant to prevent that. Did the nra board just fail to oversee . What what these executives were doing . And and if so, why . Yeah, as you know nonprofit boards have a serious responsibility right to oversee the nonprofits and make sure that they are following all relevant laws the board of the nra though. Is made up of 76 members 76 members so, you know one person compares it to the poly bureau and in terms of how it makes this decisions and then when you look a little bit deeper you see the resumes of some of these folks who are Board Members and you see a lot more gun activists on the board than you do people who have backgrounds in accounting or finance or law this an organization that in 2016 took in more than 400 Million Dollars. You dont see a lot of folks on the board with resumes that would suggest that they have an ability to oversee an operation of that size and complexity and seriousness. It will and and the nra, you know, they have to make annual disclosures. They have to follow certain rules. Were were they actually stupid enough to think they wouldnt get caught . I mean, do you think that that the nra has gotten into compliance now with nonprofit laws or whats happening right now internally. I think for a long time they just felt like there was a culture of impunity and no one in particular was really looking that deeply into it there have always been troubles at the nra when it came to internal whistleblowers. I mean, this is a longstanding problem with the nra that theyve had complaints going back to the 90s about these sweetheart deals for contractors who are being paid way too much for the work they do but you know what we have more recently in the last few years is a number of whistleblowers. Basically sounding the alarm on practices inside the organization as well as outside investigators congressional investigators the new York Attorney general who are really interested to know whether the nra is fully complying with the law and as you can as you know, the new york attending general has found that thats not the case that there were tens of millions of dollars in misallocated funds by the nra and that the new York Attorney general is has filed Student Court to try to dissolve the nra entirely because of what she calls corruption on the part of the nra Wayne Lapierre and other senior officials of the organization. So when you boil it all down, do you think that the your your reporting and the book shows that theres more corruption incompetence a combination of it all by entering leadership . It all leads in one after the other i think right that that theres bad. Theres bad intention. Theres but theres also ignorance of the law and its its mixed in there all together to lead to this total catastrophe you look at the state. The nra is in now, its its in a greater crisis than its probably seen. Arguably any time since its inception youve got some of the nras own members. Kind of revolting demanding change in the leadership and Greater Transparency in the organization. You have some board of some directors on the board openly protesting how the nra is handling their business got a financial problem. Thats so serious that in 2018 as i point out in misfire. They almost couldnt make payroll. Thats how serious it was for any organization. Thats a full stop, you know five alarm five. And then you have the new York Attorney general and other investigations the new York Attorney general being the most Serious Investigation in which dave launched a lawsuit. The office is launched a lawsuit that seeks to close down the nra entirely. I mean whether you think thats likely or not or whether a judge will do that. There is a serious possibility that that could happen and that really strikes the very heart of whether the nra can continue to exist. Id love to hear more about sort of the the expensive tastes and the lavish spending by by nra leadership. I mean, what did you find out in the book in detail . I know for example, they spent thousands of dollars at an Italian Restaurant in virginia, and and also, you know, you just said that Wayne Lapierres best friend told him he would give him a hundred dollars if he didnt get married. I think you know so often women are given a bad rap, right they have to they have to take the blame when when a man misbehaves but in your book, i mean it sounds a lot like what wayne lap here is doing is out his wifes dream. You talk to people who have known Wayne Lapierre for a really long time going way back to the 80s and you ask them. Did Wayne Lapierre have a interest in italian menswear was he like super interested in the finest . A italian food or you know did was he the sort of person who would be super excited to go on a trip to the bahamas. People who know him and have known them for a really long time. Say that. That was not who Wayne Lapierre was before he got married that he was kind of mr. Rumpled suit that he you know, he he wore cheap shoes and he was perfectly content to do so he was kind of absentminded egghead type professorial could have been an academic instead of the head of one of the most controversial organizations in america. You know for all the things that that people describe about Wayne Lapierre, they describe Susan Lapierre very different. That where Wayne Lapierre is kind of weakwilled that shes extremely bold and various assertive and that she has you know that she has an incredible amount of influence over Wayne Lapierre one interesting fact is that wayne lapier doesnt use electronics. He doesnt use email. And that the person who has access to his email account is actually susma appear on the other side. That if senior staff wanted to reach out to Wayne Lapierre, they would reach out to susan and that just shows you how ingrained Susan Lapierre is in Wayne Lapierres life right that you know not no one really had a sense of just how important Susan Lapierre was to the operations of the National Rifle association. She doesnt really have a formal title has been seen in senior leadership. She considers herself a volunteer and she says that all the time but she actually has an immense amount of influence. She has her own staff. She is a her office as a has a budget from the nra. She gets thousands of dollars as you know in the past. Its had thousands of dollars for celebrity stylists and makeup artists come in and this is by the way on a nonprofits dime, you know nonprofits often, you know people go to work for a nonprofits with the understanding that things are going to be on a shoestring budget because nonprofit, but that was not how that that responsibility was. Not how wayne and Susan Lapierre are conducted themselves with you know, some seriousness. So despite all of this bizarre behavior mismanagement corruption cronyism the nra still became incredibly powerful. What do you attribute that to i mean, is it is it chris cox . Who was their chief lobbyist for so many years is it just the fact that they had they were flush with cash. I mean it if it wasnt the brilliant strategist at the top, which doesnt sound like wayne lap here. Is then how do you account for how theyve become so influential . You know, i i think that they actually some some level of arrogance developed during the obama years when they were flush with money and it was easy for them to kind of push this message that the Obama White House or the Obama Administration was a threat to peoples gun rights or wanted to restrict peoples ability to have firearms. It was easy to sell that message to fundraise and increase membership and that worked for a time. In fact, it worked until one of the greatest successes of the nra, which is the election of donald trump. They went in they went all in for donald trump. They spent more than 30 Million Dollars on his first Selection Campaign more even than the trump. Super pac. Did that cycle one thing thats interesting in misfire. Is that when everyone was fleeing from donald trump . After the axis hollywood tapes all his republican allies fleeing that the nra actually increased their ad by and increase their support, they thought that it was so necessary that donald trump be elected that they were willing to kind of double down at that point. But that arrogance that grew during the obama era really becomes an undoing during the trump era because ironically because of the way the incentives are they really hit a cash crunch. In the obama area. Sorry in the trump era because they made no strategic plans on how to make ends meet when money isnt coming in as quickly. And as theres this contraction in the finances of the organization. Some of the problems begin to bubble up to the surface. And all you know and many of those problems are outlined misfire and then other investigations into the topic. So tim, lets flash back to 2012. Horrific shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in newtown, connecticut about 10 years prior the nra had said we support a background check on every gun sale. We oppose guns in schools. This happens and and they have a decision to make as an organization. They can back down or they can double down. And they clearly chose to double down. Whats your insight into the decision that they made and and how it has played out for them as an organization and and also obviously as the founder of moms demand action, i wonder you know, i i believe it was probably their Worst Nightmare that that women in this country would rise up against them and how has that factored their behaviors and organization . Yeah, well, let me let me answer this the the sandy hook question first, you know, one of the one of the chapters in misfire deals with exactly what happened inside the nra as the shooting occurred and in the days after and how the response was by the nra. There was a real disconnect between different parts of the nra at the time Wayne Lapierre and the nras Advertising Firm kind of huddled for days after the shooting to try to come up with some sort of message and its lobbyists who had who are the ones who ultimately would have to explain that position were totally left in the dark. And so theres the scene with chris cox whos the who was at the time the top lobbyist of the nra watching as Wayne Lapierre goes on television and says actually what they need what the nra supports is more guns in schools. And chris cox kind of lets out an expletive and rushes out of the room. And so i cant believe this is you know, this is the direction that the organization is taking but that is ultimately the the position that the nra took. And i feel like it was really and i think the book describes it as a real pivot point not only for the nra but also for the Gun Safety Movement in america and in particular the particularly the the one of the movement that youre one of the major leaders and so the nra after that moment really does double down on the conservative culture war. And it really does kind of embrace just conservatives and republicans as their primary audience deciding to forego reaching out to you know, democrats or moderate democrats who in the past. They really seen a Strategic Partners and allies. As for you know as for your question about women and the Gun Safety Movement in america, i think. You know that theres a chapter in misfire that kind of describes the reaction of you and a lot of other folks were pushing for the passage of mansion to me and how when it failed. It could have really been the end of a lot of of that movement but instead the you know, i think there are a lot of really frustrated mothers and women in this country who banded together and wanted to grow that movement. To the point that in 2018 as you im sure no and are proud of the Gun Safety Movement outspent the Gun Control Movement for the first time, which is a real milestone considering just how dominant the nra had been on this topic for so long. And i know we need to get to audience questions, but one other question i want to ask you is about the nras membership. So, you know we are now larger every town monster in action and Student Action or the grassroots arms of that organization. Were larger than the nra, but they still claim to have five million or so members. I think that is debatable, but a lot of power to that do you think thats where where their power still comes from . You know, i think there it like i think that a lot of folks talk about the nras money and well money obviously is important to political activism what really makes lawmakers hesitant to move on legislation is if they think that theyre that moving on legislation is going to mean their switchboard is going to light up. That there are email inboxes is going to get are going to get flooded that theyre gonna get yelled at at a town hall or or confronted in the district. And whether the number of members of the nra has is 4. 9 million as they said or some lower amount. I think that there have been lawmakers for a really long time worried about the repercussions of going against what the nra has said that they want so for legislation the nra has maintained its ability to be a quite Formidable Force in politics. So i think were going to ask some audience questions now. Great. Hello. Thank you for that conversation. Yes. We do have some audience questions and if anyone else has a question, feel free to drop it in the q a feature. So one of the first questions it was you were talking about the obama era and someone asked hasnt the nra been considered a powerful lobby for many years. Not just during the obama era and beyond. Well, i i think thats thats true. I dont think i meant to make the point that they were only powerful during the obama era. I think theyve had a lot of influence even before that, but you know, they make a lot of money. Its indisputable that they they fundraise and make quite a lot of money after the after the obama era begins and interestingly enough their membership expands their fundraising increases after sandy hook because theyve been able to sell their members this idea that their their rights and and their interests would be under threat after such an event. Cool um, great. Another question was what do you think of the gifford nonprofit suing the nra because the fec would not would not for creating Shell Companies for Election Fraud not surprised question mark this is id love shannons view on this as well. Because i because im sure shes been following this issue very closely. You know, this is just the latest example, i mean in misfire we this is just the latest example of these allegations that have piled up against the nra, you know misfire goes into great detail. Not only laying out some of the some of the troubling spending and corruption that has happened over the years, but also trying to tracing how it happened, you know, shannon had mentioned that some nra officials really love Wayne Lapierre and others really love dining at this Italian Restaurant in alexandria, virginia called landinis lindenius is worth mentioning. Not only because there were thousands of dollars worth of, you know italian dinners that were charged to the nra but it illustrates one of the way that ways that the nra was able to escape accountability and transparency that one of the things that they would do was they would use their ad agencies credit card in order to they would have these fancy meals in the thousands of dollars. They would use their ad agencies credit card to charge these expenses and in the ad agency would bill it back to the nra as kind of nondescript expenses as if they were servicing their client and just doing what youd expect and add agency to do but but what that did was it kind of hid from not only the public but even the nras own staff even people who were aids to some of these senior nra officials it hid the way that they were kind of doing some of these expenses and gaining. Private benefit even though there were top members of a nonprofit. Ive gone a little far field of the question. So i would like to see what shannon what if shannon has thoughts on that question as well. You know, i think generally we have since we started our organization felt that sunlight is the best disinfectant. And the entry was getting away with so much for so long, which is how theyve become the organization. They are today. And so the way to go after that was to fight them on several levels. Legislatively, so we work in state houses and at the capitol to either beat back bad legislation or support good legislation. Electorally we get involved in every single electoral cycle to elect what we call gunsense candidates culturally, right . We need influencers and and Corporate Leaders to be part of our coalition, but also through litigation and more and more the Gun Safety Movement is going after the nra in the courts again trying to expose their agenda something. They have kept very close to the vest for so long and you know, you can even see whats happening with the Supreme Court and the information coming out today that the nra is possibly paying gun extremists to write briefs without disclosing the funding theyve received so again at the end of the day, its all about making sure that the nra has to answer for for the way theyre behaving as a so called nonprofit. Another question was tim. Was there anything that you uncovered in your investigation that was truly shocking to you even after reporting on the nra for years. You know the nra was just such a black box when i started reporting at this project and there were a lot of surprising things. You know, i approached this thinking that they were very ruthlessly Effective Organization. And then i i kind of pulled back the cardinal look behind the curtain and theres like chaos everywhere. Theres you know, theres people sniping at each other. Theres all these theyre all these factions what was fascinating to me was learning more about these personalities that we really never got a sense of in private, you know, the weirdness of wayne lap here the fact that he does hes not good with firearms and hes in fact on occasion been unsafe with firearms as a story of him at the range holding a firearm and someone calls out to him and he whips around and points the gun at someone and its well known inside the nra that hes not good at firearms right that theres theres this kind of recurring joke at nra hq which in which people who dont do well. Job or told hey if you dont do well you might have to go shooting with wayne right like that. Like its just well known as maybe people need one of them internally for it but to learn more about him his personality and the weirdness of it all and then also to learn about susans hidden hand in the organization. I mean, theres been next to nothing written about Susan Lapierre and and her role over the years as well as just the way she treats people around her and the view of folks in the nra orbit about what shes like and what she does and this like elite world of Million Dollar women donors that that are in the nra the way they compare different approaches and kind of theres like this kind of mean girls mentality that comes about with that as well as these demands for loyalty for from Susan Lapierre and other senior officials inside the organization. Its just such a bizarre circus that i in when i started this then imagine was happening there. Cool. What so someone asked what is the mood at the nra now . Well, i mean theyve made massive cuts. You know, i mean there was a time where things were so bad. They werent even serving free coffee anymore. Right . Like thats got to be a bit of a mood killer inside the office. I mean, its pretty dire if youre not getting free coffee, but theyve reduced their staff by hundreds of people financially. Theyre in there. Theyre really theyre facing a deep squeeze. I think there are a lot of members. I mean, ive spoken to quite a number of nra members and as ive written this book and after the publication of misfire, i have heard from a lot of folks who are nra members are former mr. Nra members who just have caught up on some of the some of the reports about whats happening inside the nra and no longer willing to contribute to the group. I mean the moon inside its its pretty pessimistic i think. Yeah, and we have two questions that are similar so ive kind of combine them and its for both of you. Its the nra is so weak these days. So in your opinion, what is their biggest weakness and what its gonna be the straw that finally breaks the nras back and on that also in spite of the corruption and the weak leadership. They seem to have nine lives. So whats it gonna take to defend the nra . Whats for both of you . Change una go first. Ive been talking about that. Oh, i mean i think a lot of. I mean mom send their kids to school for the first time their kindergartners their preschoolers and these children have to essentially rehearse their deaths. In the bathroom of their classroom as though you know, this this piece of wood is going to protect them from the spray of an ar15 and i think that that is when it hits so many of us that, you know, we dont have to live this way and our children sure as hell shouldnt die this way. We have a 25 times higher gun homicide rate than any other pure nation, right . We are certainly an outlier Something Else that we have that no other nation does is a gun lobby. We have essentially allowed a special interest that has a vested interest and profit. Motive in creating the weakest gun laws possible so that as everyone is armed. And you know the logical outcome of that is, mass. Death whether its unintentional shootings gun homicides gun suicides. And so look, i i, you know, people have been working on this issue for a long time, but but in terms of building a Grassroots Movement that could go toe to toe with a gun lobby are organization is the first to do that. And when you look at other social issues, right it takes years if not decades to get to where you need to be to be able to extinguish a special interest if you look at you know, tobacco or the alcohol industry all of those industries that opposed any kind of safety regulation eventually collapsed the nra is collapsing not just because of external pressure but because of their own internal foibles and so look, i think that that tim is right and the the outlook is very pessimistic for the nra. Now that said there are plenty of socalled Second Amendment organizations that are you to step in where the nra leaves off. It is same though. I want to be clear. None of these organizations have built up the Political Capital the infrastructure the power that its taken decades. I mean the nras been doing this as a lobbying group since the 70s. So i think theres a real opportunity to to finally build a momentum that will point the right president the right congress the right Supreme Court in the right direction, but in the meantime just like so many social issues that has to be built on the ground and thats what weve been doing now for about a decade. So im very optimistic and i i am certain that we will eventually have the cathartic moment. Were waiting for in congress, but i just want to be clear that on the ground. We are winning. We are winning at state houses and in boardrooms and in courtrooms and in School Boards and city councils, and and thats how activism works. Yeah from my perspective, you know so much depends on what happens in the courts over the next year or so. I mean, we talked a little bit about the new York Attorney generals investigation and ultimate litigation with the nra. Its a serious threat to the nras very existence. Theres no doubt about it whether probable or not it is a possibility and its something worth taking taking very seriously there there is a chance that the nra could get dissolved based on a court order because of what the new York Attorney general has identified as tens of millions of dollars in this spending and misconduct. Thats nothing. Thats thats something we just cant ignore right that that is a possibility and so ill be watching very closely the courts and how that plays out because thats going to have a lot of impact on the state of gun politics in this country. And we have another its more of a comment than a question, but i would love your reaction or thoughts on it. They say i fear as long as the nra clings to gun rights as opposed to gun safety. It will have a long life unless the responsible gun owner members. Take it over. Id love shannons thoughts on this as well. Im sure she has im sure she has thoughts on this side. Ill just say that you know that there are a number of pivot points that are important for for the nra when kind of looking back in their history, and there was a point in the 70s or the nra was kind of considering backing away from gun rights activism and focusing more on gun safety outdoor sports, they even considered moving out of washington dc and during the colorado to to increase their emphasis on a different direction for for the organization the nra instead in the late 70s ended up getting changing direction for a number of reasons including activists in the base and becoming a much more aggressively political activist organization and morphing ultimately into the into the group that we see and know today. And you know, i i get calls all the time for people say, you know, i had this great idea. What if we all joined the nra and take it over but but as tim said earlier, theres a reason they have 76 people on their board. They have learned and they have observed and learned from from the downfall of similar special interests on how not to have those same things happen to them. Plaque is a good example of that right the nra that has helped get immunity for gun manufacturers so they cant be sued for their products because they watched what happened to tobacco. They have done everything they can to make sure that that ordinary gun owners are or citizens can never take over the nra the leadership of the nra has become extremely radicalized. I cant imagine that the leadership they have now could ever come to the middle. You know, it may be if wayne up here goes to jail and and they put in a new ceo. Well see well see where that goes but you know at the end of the day, this is an organization that is only about lobbying they purport. To be interested in gun safety and training and all these things but if you look at their budget, theyre not spending anything money on on really anything but but getting their their cronies elected and and making sure that no good gun laws are passed. No gun safety laws are passed. So, you know, i i also think its important to keep in mind that only about one in 10 of american gun owners even belongs to the nra, right . So the average gun owner is a responsible person. They support common sense gun laws. They are they are not extremists like the leadership of the nra. Um one other question asked is the nra irreparable and could it ever return to the days of responsible training and gun responsibility youve touched on that a little bit but is there anything else youd like to add on that . Yeah, i mean, i think that this is kind of just i think its mirrors shannons point from just a few seconds ago, which is that you know, the the nra under its current leadership certainly does not look like its interested in changing its attitude or its used towards firearms so much is going to depend on how this new York Attorney general legal action is going to proceed and what the outcome is whether or not Wayne Lapierre and other top officials at the nra are able to maintain their posts or whether theyre removed is going to determine the future of the National Wife association so much is in the air right now. Theres time of deep uncertainty for the nra and its time to deep weakness for the nra. And so then we have one last kind of general thing for tim. How did your understanding of the nra change during the process of writing the book and shannon . We just love to hear a little bit from you about how people can get involved to make change happen. Sorry for me the question was how was your view of the nra or your thoughts changed over the course of writing the book . Yeah, i i think i was going into this, you know my background and reporting. Hes kind of in national security, you know, i was going into this thinking, you know, you take a certain number of precautions when you do investigative reporting to protect your sources to protect your communications, and i was going into this thinking that i was dealing with, you know, a very ruthlessly Efficient Organization that was on the level of or maybe in the same ballpark as you know, a nationstate in terms of its abilities and and you know threats to stretched my sources and and you just a very Effective Organization that was to be reckoned with but then i kind of the more reporting that i did the more i realized that they were disorganized ineffective chaotic behind the scenes. Theres all this back and forth and that they that they very often find it hard to pull in the same direction. And in terms of getting involved, you know, we welcome all caring americans. Were not just moms anymore much like mothers against drunk driving, were mothers and others. We also have students demand action and really you know it we need everyone to use their voices and their votes on this issue if we want to see change so if you want to join us text the word ready to six four four three three, we will have a volunteer get back to you immediately and plug you in where you live you can also go to everytown. Org or moms demand action. Org. Amazing. Well, thank you so much both, tim and shannon for joining us tonight again, you can get misfire at east city bookshop right now. We do have signed copies available. The link is in the chat. And again, thank you so much for joining us and have a fantastic rest your night. The page look for peter wood, Matthew Spalding in the 1619 project. Joining us on book tv is doctor deidre mccroskey. She is the author of over 30 books a long time economist with the university of illinois at chicago. Her most recent book veteran human onyx is just out. When you mimi a human onyx. I am an economist also historian ive been a