Transcripts For WHYY Charlie Rose 20140923

Is provided by the following additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. From our studios in new york city, this is captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose the United Nation General Assembly brings many heads of state to new york. We begin a series of conversations this week with the president of turkey, ray accept day yep erdogan. The rise of isis brings turkey into renewed focus this weekend, 46 turkish diplomats were released from isis cappivity captivity in a recognize, they had been held for 100 days, turkey says no ransom is was paid, an ongoing isis assault in Northern Syria adding to the 1. 3 million refugees in turkey. Over 130,000 syrian kurds have entered turkey in the past three days. Turkey is already part of u. S. Led nato coalition against isis but so far it has made no military commitment. I spoke to president erdogan earlier today at his hotel. Here is our conversation. Mr. President , thank you for joining us. Thank you. Your hostages have been released. You can tell me if you had to give up anything, make any promises to isis to get them home . Well, first of all, the fact that our hostages have been brought home has been a very Important Development for our country. Its the end of a very important issue for us. And our National Intelligence service worked very hard as their ability to conduct this operation was very important. And i have to say very clearly that these hostages were kept in captivity for 102 days. And there is really been a very successful intelligence effort here to get them released. And there is a we might call this a diplomatic operation, a political operation, so all these aspects have been very important in securing the release of these 49 hostages. There are many speculations. But i can say very clearly there there has been no issue of paying any ransom. So there is no money paid. Everybody should know that. This is completely as i said, a diplomatic, political discussion. The result is a result of political diplomatic negotiations. And it does not include any concessions visavis our country and our government. So isis got nothing in return for releasing the hostages. Well, isis is playing playing for a number of things in the region. Perhaps they do not want to increase the number of enemies that they have because turkey would have remained patient only up to a certain point. And other steps would have had to be taken. As you know, there was a meeting which the United States participated in and other countries participated in this as well, and our foreign minister was there in that Coalition Building effort. And after those meetings, mr. Kerry came to anchora an i told him when he came to visit me that we would be part of a humanitarian effort. But because we had the 49 hostages, we would not be in a position to take other steps. And we have actually taken significant steps in terms of humanitarian support. For example, we have, were hosting about 60,000 yiz idies, they have arrived in turkey in a very short period of time. So we are hosting about 60,000 yizidies, and they are staying in our School Buildings, our tents. As of this morning, 120 125,000 syrian kurds are in turkey. They are being hosted in turkey. And we have at the moment a total of about 1. 5 million refugees in turkey. So we are hosting these 1. 5 Million People. But as we do that, the rest of the world is hosting 120 130,000, so there is a big difference. And we have invested so far 3. 5 billion dollars in this effort. There are also wounded people coming there palestine, gaz az and about 130 of them have arrived in turkey so far. Some have been treated already, others are in the process of being treated. So turkey is fulfilling this humanitarian effort. Describe for me the continues in the refugee camps, so that the world understands what the challenge it is for you. I think i should say there are four types of refugee camps that we have at the moment. We have some tent camps which we had to set up very quickly, urgently. Then we set up some container cities, container cities were set up. But then there are also others who have their own financial needs who could be settled in some of the cities. And fourthly, we have opened up our school, School Buildings to house these refugees. Do they in some cases, if they are syrian kurds represent a Security Threat to turkey . Well, the Security Threat wouldnt come from syrian kurds of all the people who are arriving there are many who are there who need the helpment but there are some who may pose a threat. And we of course have to take necessary measures. And its something that we really have to be very careful about. But our National Intelligence agency, our Security Forces are all looking into this. And we tell our friends, that its very important to set up a nofly zone on the syrian side. If we can declare such an area and support that zone, then we can establish a safe there whereby help would be provided to that region and this would remove any Security Threat. In 1991, we had opened our doors to kurds then. And at that time, there were about one million kurds who had crossed over to turkey and we provided them food, shelter. And they were escaping from the persecution of saddal. And then they went back to Northern Iraq. A similar thing is happening now both in iraq and in syria. And we have opened our doors. We keep an opendoor policy in place. But well see how far this can go. Thats the question mark, of course. But the pkk has been in opposition and fighting against isis. Well, this is not an issue for the pkk, the pyd left the area. The pyd and the pkk are the same. As you know, when the pyd left that area, isis came in and they started chasing all the kurds there. And about 20 to 30 villages are as a result occupied by isis. So this is the situation. This is similar to what happened in moss all. And its happen mosul and its happening now in the kob annie area. And the villages around kobane are being visited by isis and the kurds living around those villages are fleeing to turkey and they are now housed in turkey. Rose my understanding is you want a nofly zone that is away from the border which will pull those people away from the border because they will seek the safety of a nofly zone. Yes. Reasons thats correct. The moment theres a nofly zone, if that is declared, then there would be a safe zone in that area. And other humanitarian needs for that safe zone would be provided logistical support, could be provided to that region and these people could then settle in that area and live in that area for the time being. Another question about the border is that some people believe and argue and say it is a fact that many of the people who are joining isis in syria and then in iraq are coming through turkey. That you need to do a better job of closing your borders to those radicals who want to come and fight for isis. These are not sincere. This was something we discussed at the nato summit. And when we discussed this at the nato summit france, italy, the u. K. , they talked about people who were from their countries who were going to this region. They are leaving those countries as tourists. They dont leave countries with weapons at hand. In turkey we have so far identified about 6,000 of them. Some they come from Different Countries including our country. We have detained some of them. We have deported some of them. So we have been working on this. There are some whose entry into turkey is banned. And they come into turkey and turkey has is very keen on this. Theyre coming through turkey going to syria. Well, the entry issue, if you look at syria and iraq. If you look at our border, we have a border about 1200 kilometers including the border with syria and the border with iraq. So were looking at a very long border where you have the customs entry and exit points and the rest of the border. And its not possible to control every single segment of it. But if we say that thousands of people are going through, it would be very unfair to turkey, this is not the case. Rose now that the hostages are home and safe, what is the commitment of turkey to the fight against isis . What are you prepared to do . As you know turkey had a big struggle against al qaeda. And our struggle against isis will continue to be the case. We are very firm in this. And i can tell you very clearly that turkeys view with regard to terrorist organizations in the region is one and the same. And we make no concessions on that point of view. Because for 32 years weve been fighting against pkk terrorism in our own country. So we know what the consequences are. About 40,000 people lost their lives as a result of the struggle. The economic consequences also have been huge. Isis is not a terrorist organization that emerged today. It was in iraq but then it went to syria. It, the conducive environment provided it with a room for development and then it started growing. And so all countries that are sensitive to terrorism ought to have responsibility in countering this threat. Okay. That is my question. What is your responsibility and what are you prepared to do . To help the battle, train troops, would you do that . Would you train the Free Syrian Army so that they can engage isis in syria . Whatever is required in this effort, needs to be done. And turkey will do whatever it needs to do based on its own experience. And we have been sending out warnings for a long time. In syria we had sounded that alarm a long time ago. But whereas the u. S. In syria as i said at the nato summit, the issue is not only iraq. Its iraq and syria. And so its important to take the two together. Air strikes, if you only consider air strikes, this means that you are not fully involved in this struggle because air strikes is only one dimension. There would be things that would need to be done by the air, on the ground, from intelligence perspective, from a humanitarian perspective. So these all have to be taken into consideration. And we have to look at this as a whole. And if we do not have this kind of a comprehensive approach, then the job will be half done. Because you bumble a praise and that is where you leave it. What about the social ramifications, what about the political ramifications. So all of these factors have to be taken into consideration. But clearly you know the United States does not want to be seen as sending its troops to fight again muslims in the middle east. They would like to provide the support that they can, to stop isis and they prepared to use some advisors and certainly air power. But they need Ground Troops to come from the region. Where are they going to come from . Can you take the Free Syrian Army and make it into a fighting force that with air power can stop isis . Well, fighting against terrorism is not a regional issue. Its an international issue. And since it is an international issue, we have to consider an international approach. Why then would a meeting be held in jeta or why did this process begin in iraq 12 years ago. And why was the situation with syria considered in the way that it was considered. We have to discuss these on an International Level and there has to be if these terrorist actions are taking place in this location today, its very possible that they would happen in other countries tomorrow. It could be in the u. S. , in france, in germany, in the u. S. , as has happened with the twin towers so it can happen anywhere. Rose but mr. President , you know that they are gaining, they are taking ground in syria and iraq. They occupy and they took the city of mosul and took hostages, turkish hostages. They have to be stopped there now. And you need an effort that involves a coalition. And the United States an others are saying where is turkey. Well, these are not things you would say in the way that you want me to say them on a Television Program like this. Our different units have discussions with their american counterparts. Theyre having those discussions. And based on the outcome of those discussions, there are certain phases in which we would be involved. We are not a country that is outside the region. We are in the region. The fire is burning in our region. 1. 5 million refugees are not in the u. S. Or in germany or in france, theyre in my country so im already there. And we are, our country is hosting those people and defending them. Were saving those people from those bombs and those he events across the border. So. Planes, the bombs, this is all very they are bombing in one area. Isis in the meanwhile is still moving forward with the tanks and the artillery that they have. Where did those tanks and artillery come from . I think we have to really assess the situation fully. Those tanks and artillery are weapons that the u. S. Had provided to the army in the past. Isis and what did isis do with them . They began this occupation effort in the region. So we have to contemplate all the steps that we would need to take in the region. And depending on that outlook, we would do what we have to do. The u. S. Would do what it has to do. All the countries in the region ought to be doing what they have to do. And people like malickee were mar all maliki were for years kept there. What happened now, maliki will become Vice President again. And we keep saying that this person should not be taking such responsibilities. Rose but dont you believe the new government is more inclusive of sunni muslims than maliki was and that the progress, because the United States made clear that it would not be engaged unless there was a change in the baghdad government. It is not possible to accept that the sunnis have a more influential position in the new government. Because its the shiite who have the dominant position. Still. But the uncertainty that was there is no longer there because there iraq did not have a president ment now it has a president. The speaker of the parliament has been determined. And the Prime Minister is now someone else, atly the iraqi people are free of maliki. We have a border of 320 kilometers with iraq and we hope that our relations with iraq will be healthier or better. In iraq we have with the administration in Northern Iraq with the shia, with at rab, with the sunnis, we have connections on contacts with all of these groups. So we do not have any negative relations with any one of these groups. Were in touch with maliki as well. But malikis approach was different. He did not establish a National Army in iraq. He established a shiite army. And about 95, 98 of the army was made up of the shiite, that cannot be a National Army. And that lead to internal clashes. And it lead to many problems in iraq. I hope now that this government in iraq is aware of all these factors. And they will move swiftly in establishing a National Army as they have worked to establish this government. But as you said the biggest problem is not iraq, it is syria. As i said to president obama, one cannot only look at iraq. That would be wrong. Iraq and syria both have to be taken into consideration in determining what to do with the region. And on that wednesday, that speech he made on that wednesday, president obama did res the situation in both of those countries, in iraq and syria. And i think this was a correct observation, correct assessment. And we, i think that we have to do whatever is necessary based on this overall assessment. And i said this to secretary hagel and also to secretary kerry. So if we take that kind of an approach i think we will be more successful. How do you assess what the americans have done so far . Positive, negative . More recently, if were talking about the most recent steps in iraq theyre positive. Delayed but positive. It would have been better if the president had decided to support the Free Syrian Army two years ago, notwithstanding his worry that weapons would fall into the hands of groups like alnusra or isis . Well, i should say, that two years, its not even two years. Its three years ago. Things should have been dealt with three years ago in syria. And same with iraq. There it should have been even longer than three years ago. Because malikis approach was unfortunately never positive. And maliki kept putting a lot of pressure on his people. And i said this to president obama and when i was Prime Minister, i also talked to mr. Biden about this. And we did tell them about this situation in the region. And unfortunately the necessary steps were not taken to deal with it. And its if this new government can take these steps then i hope that we can achieve a more swift result and those 1. 5 Million People in our country are able to go back home. Do you think that your effort to overthrow and see assad leads ahead of government in syria lead you to overlook the threat of the radical jihadist in syria . You were so intent on seeing assad overthrown that perhaps your support went to the wrong groups. All of the well, let me say very clearly that regarding these terrorist organizations, in that area, we have to think of how they happened, how they came about, these terrorist organizations. Were there terrorist organizations when assad was there or was isis there, when al qaeda, was it there. I was Prime Minister for 11 years and i kept going to syria. I visited syria very regularly and these terrorist organizations did not exist in syria at the time. And the problem, the issues, always came back to assad himself. Because i kept telling him then that he should move more quickly towards democracy. That he should not be afraid of allowing Political Parties to be established that it wouldnt be sufficient to have jut the baath party and i kept telling him he should let people establish their own Political Parties. And he, as for my support, we sent our teams. We worked together and we provided a lot of support. But he kept telling us that he believed in these ideas but his inner voice must have told him that his political life would come to an end if he were to allow for more democracy. And i guess this was why he used the tanks and the canons against his people. And that was when these terrorist organizations began to flourish. And then isis left iraq and came to syria in that environment. And so did al qaeda and others. And we wanted to have more support for the Free Syrian Army. But unfortunately, it was only turkey, qatar and qatar who worked together to support the Free Syrian Army. And our collaboration was in the way of trying to support the moderate opposition fighting against assad. And we tried to continue to support these moderate position groups but he, assad, left space for these terrorist organizations, for the sake of protecting his position. Hes not a democratic person. He terrorized these people. It is an autocratic regime that he has. You are suggesting that assad allowed isis to become a threat it was in his interest to do that . Do do you have any doubt . He was the one who prepared the ground for this. And he even supported isis and i supported isis against the groups opposing him. And he established his own reign reign by using isis and others. So whoever was not against him was his friend. Because he thought that the enemy of his enemies is his friends, irrespective of who they were, whatever terrorist organization there were. Rose what role should iran play in the battle against isis . Iran so far, unfortunately, has not played the role it is expected to play. We discussed this with the iranians a number of times. And with respect to developments in iraq they have been silent. Whenever we wanted to work with them, they shied away from it. And in syria too, as you know, they were always part of the difficulties because their role was that of defending the assad regime like russia did. So thats the role they played. And this was, the fact that we were also we kept telling them. Rose they supported the maliki government and they also supported syria and hezbollah came in and opposed and supported assad. But the question is now they are opposed to isis, and secretary kerry is saying we should look to find ways that iran could be part and all nations should be part of the effort to stop isis is. I think we have to evaluate what happened previously well. Did iran take any steps regarding the assad regime in syria . When we look at that past, we see that even today iran is not taking any step against syria. On the contrary, or to the contrary, there is also hezbollah. Hezbollah is standing with the syrian regime. But is it more important to defeat isis than it is to overthrow assad at this moment. At this moment, we cant really say this is more important than the other. I think we have to analyze this situation correctly. We have to make sure that we try dry out the swamp. One part of the swamp is in syria. The other extension of it is in iraq. And we must work to insurance that all this swamp is no longer there. Now what can the u. S. Do . What can turkey, france, italy, saudi a yabia, jordan, lebanon or qatar do . We work on these matters at this moment we have to end this terror. Rose is it doable and how long will it take . I cant tell you how long. But there is no question that it has to be done. We have to make a decision. Once that decision is made, we can move forward. How serious do you believe the split in islam between shia and sunni is today . There is significant sectarianism. Im as the president of turkey i am completely against this split. Because i dont accept this split between sunni an shia. And im very sad to see that some support the split. And ive always told them so. Some of the shia representatives have not been happy with what ive said in the past. But what i always say is that to us whats important is islam. Not whether you are sunni or shia. Islam as a religion is against terrorism. Because islam is a religion of peace. Islam the word islam comes from the word sim which means peace in arabic. So islam is a religion of peace. And to characterize islam as being involved in terrorism is something that we would not accept. That is why iran has a lot of responsibility in this respect. They must take part in this effort for peace and they should not adopt a sectarian approach, in the same way the sunnis must also work for peace and they too should not believe in a sectarianism. And they have to say so and they have to show it with their actions. We as turkey work with our directors of religious affairs. And we work with the International Islamic scholars. And turkish scholars are also working in this area. We are carrying out some scientific work in this area as well so that we can discuss how we can Work Together in an alliance against terrorism. Rose but you know that isis or isil, they invoke their mission in the name of islam. They take the religion as a rallying cry for their political objectives. Though came chr in name of islam islam and that somehow they recruit as well. It is impossible for us to accept this approach of isis. What they are doing what nothing whatsoever to do with islam. We are people who are knowledgeable on the issue of religion. An our directors of religious affairs has carried out a number of activities. Theyve made some statements about this. Because people, innocent people are being killed. And this cannot be. The muslim world, the religion of islam cannot accept this. What the muslim people what the religion does not accept, what the scholar does not accept cannot be how you characterize the religion on the word of isis, which is a terrorist organization. They capture an american or a british person and a journalist and then they behead them. You cant do that. You cant kill children by using tanks, artillery. They dont have that right. And their objective is, they say, is to create an islamic statement. Well, i said this at the nato summit, no one should call them as such. No one, in other words, should call them a state. Theyre not. They cannot be a state. It is impossible to accept that. This is a terrorist organization. And we have said this on record before the and they are the they may call themselves that. But the fact that they call themselves in that way doesnt mean that we have to accept it. This is not something that should be done. Pronouncing it as such and making propaganda in that direction would be very, very wrong. And whatever steps ought to be taken have to be taken to counter that situation. Do you accept that idea that the essential conflict is between the saudis or sunni and the iranians, and their goal is to have the most influence in the region . I mean we we as turkey are very influning in the region and we like to be a mediator. What you say is very important. Iran is trying in its own way to exert greater influence. But we have to remember that were against any type of sectarianism. You will remember in the past in europe, in the christian world there had been many, many wars between different sects. And france, germany, many countries fought for many years. And the world paid a very heavy price for this. We as turkey, as muslims are definitely against any kind of sectarianism. We dont accept that kind of approach. So no one should expect us to provide any kind of support with a view to sectarianism. We say or we focus on islam. We focus on the muslim people as a whole. And we have no issue with, you know, shia being superior to sunni or vicea versa. This is not an issue. What we understand from being sunni is also important. We understand from it as following on the footsteps of our prophet. And we understand that to us, people are important. And that whats important is to serve the people. I want to take you to the recent conflict between israel and hamas in the gaza. What was the result of that conflict . Here we have to remember that israel in the region has the infrastructure, the defense, industry. Ammunition, its atomic bomb. So its a strong country, a powerful country. Gaza now, that gaza has any of those cap abilities . No, it doesnt. Neither does palestine. Now what happened in this process that began with the west bank . What began in the west bank was extended to gazament and about 2,300 people were killed, about 7, 8,000 people were injured or wounded. And they destroyed most of gaza. So the question i ask is could there be a humanitarian aspect to this . They have reoccupied some areas in the west bank. And they are introducing new settlements there. And the west doesnt accept those new settlements either. But despite that fact, those settlements are still being built. Now is israel, does israel own this territory . 15 journalists died there. And if one journalist had died in some other place, all hell would break loose. In our country there was the gizi event and during those events there was a lot of people attacking turkey. And there were no journalists who died or who were killed in those events. But it was as if all hell broke loose. Now against israel theres still no warning made, no statements made against them. The people in palestine, in gaza live in a place that is like an open air prison. They cannot get the food, the medication, the infrastructure, the materials that they need to survive. Many buildings have been destroyed. Now how will they be rebuilt. How will hospital its be rebuilt . U. N. Buildings have been hit. They have been destroyed. How will those buildings be rebuilt . So when we look at all these issues, we still do not talk about israel and its policies. In the most recent conflict where 2,300 gazans died, how many israelis died . I say that we should also look at this. What they say that hamas fires missiles. Hamas fires missiles. How many people died as a result, how many buildings were demolished as a result. Rose here a hears what you said. Israelies have no conscience no honor no pride. Those who condemn hitler day and night have surpassed hitler in barberism, clearly you didnt mean that. What i said had to do with the israeli government, not with the people, not with the jewish people. On this subject, the jewish people in turkey, you look at our history, in our history, we have had a very special relationship with the jewish people. Much more so than any other country. As you know, when jews were expelled from spain, we opened our doors as a country to them. 500,000 jews at that time arrived at the ottoman territories then. So i think we have to see the facts for what they are. What hitler did, we condemn that holocaust. I was a Prime Minister who declared antisellityism as a crime against humanitarian when i first became Prime Minister. So those who try to characterize me in the opposite direction are doing so for their own reasons. Hitler was engaged in holocaust and now unfortunately the same is being done by the Israeli Administration to the arabs in palestine. Rose do you really believe that what happened in gaza is comparable to the holocaust . Yes, of course. Do you have any doubt . Do you have any doubt . Because israeli government, the administration is carrying out a genocide there at the moment. And its a genocide of the arab people, the palestinians there. Its not others who are being killed, its the palestinians who are dying there. How can we not see this fact . Whoses being killed . Rose the israelis would argue that in the case of what happened in the gaza war, that they were fired upon and every nation has to respond. And they responded in order to stop. Now thats the explanation. But clearly thats different than genocide. An different than the holocaust in which 6 million jews were gassed. They may have been killed in gas chambers, yes. And i say that that is a crime against humanitarianity. Whats happening here, here millions of palestinians are in exile. They have had to leave their homes and theyre also tens of thousands of palestinians who are subject to conventional arms. And theyre being killed by the Israeli Administration. How can we turn a blind eye to this. This is what we are against. Rose let me ask you with respect to where israel is today in its relationship with turkey. When i spoke with you in is stand bule you said to me that you istanbul you were hopeful in a matter of weeks that a better relationship had been established. And you thought it would be make its way to full recognition, has it done that . My hopes were in vain, unfortunately, because of mr. Netanyahu. Because he had made an apology regarding the with the support of president obama and then there was an agreement on compensation to be paid. And there was also some discussion ongoing regarding lifting of the blockade at which point bombs started dropping in gaza, on gaza. And how can we at that point come back to a normallization process. Unfortunately, they demolished the normallization process at that point. There is a ceasefire at this moment. This is very positive. But my expectation is surrender the ceasefire permanent so we can establish a new world in the region. Since the presidency of mr. Bush, we have been supporting a two state solution. And thats what we should achieve now. Israel and palestine. If we only, if we say that there will only be israel, that would be wrong. It doesnt work. There has to be a two state solution. Indeed. And colin powell was tasked with resolving this issue. And i also said to president obama that we are ready to do whatever we can. And we did convince hamas on this point. And they too arrived at a very positive point. Because the goal should be to stop these killings, these deaths. Because if that happens then, we are ready for normallization. As these events are ongoing, not a single jewish person in my country suffered any harm. Because we dont allow that to happen. Those are the kinds of things that need to be appreciated as well. Rose did you consider among terrorist groups alnusra as bad as isis . When you look at them, do they pose the same threat that isis does . The alternative to terrorism isnt terrorism. If an action is, can be defined as terrorism its terrorism. And it doesnt matter which organization is perpetrating that act. That organization would be a terrorist organization. Thats how we look at it. Youre now president of your country. With new responsibilities. In every consideration we have had about turkey and the European Union, you expressed your hope that one of the ways that participation in the European Union would be positive is that turkey could be a bridge to the islamic world. Where do you stand on that . What is necessary between the west and islamic world in order to somehow stop the kinds of conflicts were seeing now take place. The islam ig islamic world especially turkeys desire to be a part of europe stems from this fact. Because if turkey becomes a part of the European Union, then this will have meant that relations between you and the islamic world will be carried out in a much better way. And we have seen this expectation on the part of the islamic countries whenever we have spoken with them. And they always ask us when this will happen. But unfortunately the eu is still engaged in delay tactics and its very sad to see for us. Our expectations are on the rise now. And im hoping that efforts on the part of the presidency of the eu and efforts on the part of the friends of turkey in europe would be important in trying to insurance that the chapters for negotiation are opened, negotiated an closed in the coming years so that turkey becomes a member of the eu and has this important responsibility of bridging the cap between the islamic world and European Union. I mean to raise a question of membership in the European Union, so much, as the role in the region that turkey can play today. Because there is great conflict in the region today. And what it is that you see and hope turkey can do because it is powerful. It has a strong military. It has influence. In the islamic world. Political military, social diplomatic responsibilities that turkey may take upon itself are all very important. Turkey has the capacity to conduct any of those tasks. We would be, we have the capacity to do this. And we have done so in the past. And we continue to do so. And we will continue to do it in the future. Turkey has institutionalized itself in other words with the eu institutions and mechanisms so we have many of those mechanisms in place. An many eu Member States have not all been able to complete some of the institutionalization work that we have carried out in turkey. And we have achieved all this. And i hope that in the future this process will go on. Much more swiftly and we achieve our goal. Because we have a role in the alliance of civilizations, as you know. And our aim is to prevent a clash of civilizations, and to work for an alliance of civilization. And we will continue to do so. Are we closer to the clash of civilizations today because of what we are seeing happening in the region . Unfortunately we see the signals of that process in what is happening today. But we also see that members of the same civilization are also in conflict with each other or clashing with each other so i think we have to revisit this issue. And People Living in the region and countries elsewhere, they should not be testing each other. They have to actually Work Together towards peace. They have to talk about what they can do to insurance peace in the world. And if we can do that, we would achieve an alliance of civilizations. But democracy too should not be forgotten, democracy and the emphasis on democracy is something that we should always remember. The ballot box brings you to power and takes you away also. Thats something you have to achieve. It reminds you of the things you talk about when you went to egypt, you talk about the dangers of sectarianism, you know, and the necessity of democracy. When you went to cairo. And that turkey should be the model. And i had also emphasized secularism. Right. The Muslim Brotherhood had a different approach. But after my statement about secularism there, their understanding to change because i said that the state ought to be eck which distant to all beliefs. And that it should provide assurances to all of 9 different faiths and groups. And thats how i define secularism. And i was able to convince them and i think this was very important. Our Political Party at the time, my Political Party at the time also defined secularism as such in its program. Thank you very much. Thank you. For more about this program and early episodes visit us online at pbs. Org and charlie rose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org has been provided by the cocacola company, supporting this Program Since 2002. American express and charles schwab. Additional funding provided by explore new worlds and new ideas through programs like this, made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. There are no wrong roads to anywhere. Theres no accidents. As we go along there are course corrections that we can make. Every experience that we have in our life is there to teach us something. Announcer join spiritual teacher and author dr. Wayne dyer for an intimate conversation as he returns to pbs to offer stories of his own life journey and share his deeply held beliefs. Dyer i want to step back from my life because i know that there have been forces or powers or some kind of energy that has been impacting me throughout my entire life. Announcer learn the five key principles