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Ksm was tougher, that he was evil. when you saw him, met him, you felt you were looking at pure -- >> the personification of evil. he is a very smart person. but he was looking at different ways of killing us and coming after us. >> sean: how long does it take to break somebody? i mean, the techniques are sleep depriivation, changing their diet -- >> there is conditioning techniques, initial sleep depriivation and white noise and dietary manipulation. corrective measures when you grab the person...

It was under medical supervision, the maximum time they could do it was 40 seconds o. average, they did it 10 seconds. is that torture as president obama claims? >> no, it is not torture. i think there is a second issue which is, did it work? it worked. it worked and it kept the united states safe for 10 years, even if its torture, its probably worth doing. >> sean: in other words, because we save lives. deborah, your brother was the pilot of the american airlines flight that went into the penta...

It was under medical supervision, the maximum time they could do it was 40 seconds o. average, they did it 10 seconds. is that torture as president obama claims? >> no, it is not torture. i think there is a second issue which is, did it work? it worked. it worked and it kept the united states safe for 10 years, even if its torture, its probably worth doing. >> sean: in other words, because we save lives. deborah, your brother was the pilot of the american airlines flight that went into the penta...

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