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Its really hard to get folks activated and enganged on that left side of the chart doing, fighting -- as an organizer, someone who works in community groups, how do you -- is there a way to solve that problem? >> well, heres the truth. the less sunshine there is, the worse the public interest does in these processes. some rule-making processes are extended over years, so it really takes organized movement of a million people over a very long period of time to break through this kind of phalinx o...