write it down. 202-225-3121. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> the fact that he had the type of weaponry and the amount of weaponry in that room, it was preplanned. >> war zone in las vegas. >> a battlefield, that's exactly what it was. >> new details on the shooter's massive arsenal. and the same old excuses to stay out of the gun debate. >> i think it's premature. >> we'll be talking about gun laws as time goes by. plus inside a gun shop the day after the shooting. >> to the people that think, why does anyone need these things? why do you need five of them? what do you say? >> why do you need two cars? >> back to puerto rico. >> on a local level, they have to give us more help. >> the unbelievable scene during today's presidential visit to an
american island in crisis. >> i hate to tell you, puerto rico, but you've thrown our budget a little out of whack. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from las vegas. i'm chris hayes. tonight the nation must once again answer a question. is now a good time to talk about gun violence in this country? or are massacres like the one that unfolded behind me two nights ago, a terrifying, almost endless hailstorm of bullets that left almost 600 people dead or wounded, is that just something we're all willing to live with? what one survivor called the tragic cost of freedom. >> it's a tragic cost of freedom that people can do bad things. if you can find a gun law that could prevent this from happening, i could sign up today. but i am proud of our country's second amendment rights and i'm glad we're allowed to defend ourselves. >> we now know the gunman behind this attack, the deadliest mass shooting in modern u.s. history, had built up a vast stockpile of
firearms, all of them apparently, as far as we know now, purchased legally. we got our first glimpse of those weapons today. in this new video taken outside stephen paddock's hotel almost. through the door you can see what appears to be one of the gunman's high-powered rifles mounted on a shooting bipod to design more stability for the long-range firing he was planning. according to an internal luchlt document seen by nbc news, 23 total firearms were found in that hotel suite at the mandalay bay hotel. another 19 found at the gunman's home north of las vegas. this man managed to get his hands on 42 guns, at least should have them semi-automatic, plus explosives and thousands of rounds of ammunition. law enforcement officials say the gunman had two bump stocks, a completely legal device used to modify a semi ewe mac rifle to fire rapidly, as if it were fully automatic. it is clear from the videos, and particularly the audio from the night of the attack, those bump
>> the time for euphemisms and evasion is over. the time for action is now. my heart -- >> that's not an answer to the question, though. >> i think that the time for action is now and would not involve politicizing this horrific tragedy. you know, the night after the sandy hook tragedy, i went to one of the many calling hours that i did for the parents. and i approached one of the moms to express my condolences and to say, when you're ready, we should consider what the next steps are to prevent this kind of tragedy. and she said, and i'll never forget the tears in her eyes. "i'm ready now." honoring those victims is not politicizing this tragedy. it is to take action to prevent these tragedy in the future. >> senator richard blumenthal, i appreciate your time tonight. >> thank you. david chipman, former
special agent of the atf who works for the gun safety group started by former congressman gabby giffords. you saw i think what happens here, which is a sort of argument on principle about one of open society's willing to tolerate, our constitution, that slides into technical questions. and those technical questions are a tear rain the nra is very effective at battling on, even when the commonsense argument for, say, the device that converts a semi to something that could sort of fire automatically doesn't seem particularly compelling. do the terms of that debate end of being self-defeating? >> i think so. i think when i talk about gun violence, you know, i rarely talk about guns. i talk about the shared belief that as americans we have to have the courage to figure out reasonable ways to keep guns out of the hands of people who will inflict harm on our nation. this notion that gun laws don't
work, you know -- i simply reject. i dedicated 25 years of my life on the front lines serving as a federal agent where on a daily basis i was arresting and bringing into courts people i know would have killed someone that night if we hadn't have acted. now i'm not naive, i know that there are gaps in these laws and that's what we talk about, these gaps. las vegas, you know, the first thing that i thought about was, isn't it interesting that we've been fighting against the gun lobby, who doesn't want gun dealers to tell government when someone buys more than one long gun in a five-day period, like they have to report for handguns. it would have been interesting for the government to know that someone had amassed this arsenal. now perhaps there would have been nonissues of concern. but it might be worth the conversation, and i think our law enforcement, we need to trust them to have conversations, to investigate things. if not, really atf stands for
"after the fact." and our law enforcement is just coming in after something horrible has happened. i think our government has a responsibility to keep our citizens safe. and we have to balance that with freedom and responsibility. >> jason, one of the things that happens in these discussions, you saw the white house talking points, i'm not sure if you saw them, they invoked chicago and baltimore, a common trope. these are places that have very strict gun laws. obviously the high rates of gun violence that are largely committed by illegal guns. but there is this thing, attention focuses on the gun in instances like this because the sheer history roar horror of th particular event is astounding. but it's a mismatch to the daily horror of what happens in communities like chicago and bat lower. >> right. remember the only reason the republicans and the trump administration mentioned chicago and baltimore is black people, race, let's talk about something else other than the issue that's
important. right now is the time that you have to talk about functional policy. if you see a car accident, that's when you should talk about safety belts. if your house burns down, that's when you talk about fire alarms. we should be talking about practical ways to prevent this from happening. i don't think it's a good idea for us to just throw up or hands in society and say, well, getting shot randomly when you go to a shopping mall or casino is perfectly reasonable. you brought up an interesting point talking to the senator earlier. part of the issue is the refusal on the part of some advocates for gun control to simply say, the other side is lying. the other side is being disingenuous. the other side is trying to avoid the issue. they want to talk about everything else other than the fact that you hive too many people in this country who have dangerous guns and that poses a threat to all of us. until we can get to that core level of this conversation we end up spinning to circles and every five or six months hundreds and hundreds of people are negatively affected and many die. >> david, i think a lot of
people lau people have been looking at the reporting and saying, my god, 52 guns. i think the median number of guns in a gun-opening household is eight? that's partly due to the fact that fewer and fewer households are gun-opening households but the households that do own guns own large arsenals. what does that mean, that 3% of american adults own 50% of america's civilian guns? >> my experience is that some americans really value the right to own guns. they collect them. they even amass them for a whole host of different reasons. and they're very intense about their beliefs. you know, what i try to strive to talk to people, i'm a concealed carry owner, i carry a gun for my safety, for 25 years on the job. i think most americans are in the middle, which is we recognize that as americans we exercise rights, we may buy guns for a whole host of reasons.
but with that comes a responsibility. if you're going to carry a gun outside your home, you're going to require training. if you want to buy a gun or sell a gun, perhaps you have to fill out a form or pass a background check. you know, to me a lot of the people who value the right to have a gun seem to not want to exercise the responsibilities that help cops keep people safe. so to me, when someone says, hey, it's inconvenient to fill out a background check, or fill out a federal form, it's inconvenient to have to answer the questions of cops. i can tell you what inconvenient is. inven is waking up at 6:00 in the morning, putting on your bullet-proof vest, kicking down a door to get someone who already has a gun and hope you don't get killed. inconvenient is what happened to my boss, gabby giffords. inconvenient is what's happened to all the people in las vegas. to me, like most americans, i believe are with us in saying, hey, there are a whole host of
reasonable things that we can do. and i hope we start having the courage to really talk about it. >> right. jason, you agree? >> yeah, i agree. look, there are so many restrictions that we think are reasonable in this country. we drive a car, you have to have insurance. if i use my credit card too much the weekend the bank calls me and says, is this really you? why is it that i'm able to buy 12 guns and no agency calls and says, hey, are you about to do something dangerous? these are reasonable things that we should expect for our own safety. >> all right, david chipman, jason johnson, thank you both. >> thank you. >> thank you. still to come, from a war zone overseas to the american war zone right behind me in las vegas, my interview with the security team working the concert who say sunday's shooting was worse than anything they've ever seen. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory.
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fire, fully automatic fire an elevated position, take cover. >> severed arteries, medical check -- >> we've got about 40 to 50 people pinned against this wall. >> over the police dispatch, it sounded like what you'd expect in a war zone. automatic fire from elevated position. new video tonight filmed by a woman who took cover in the bleachers shows people risking their lives to administer cpr to victims in front of the stage as shots were still raining down from above. after the break my conversation with two concert security guards who were treating the wounded on what felt like a battlefield. >> you're performing cpr on one person and you're doing compressions and breathing, compressi compressions, breathing, checking for pulse. and then after doing that two or three times -- there's no pulse. we were having to literally get and up move on to the next person.
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concert, made up of security guards who remove anyone who is intoxicated or unwell or causing trouble. despite their years and years of experience, nothing prepared them for what they encountered that night. >> we thought it was fireworks. you know, i even looked at him, we got pyro? he goes, i don't know, do we have pyro? we were thinking fireworks. so i looked over, to see if there was anything, there was nothing there. then the second burst came in and we realized it was gunfire. >> in that moment you're thinking, they didn't tell us about pyro, you're looking to see where the flares are. >> flashes in the sky. >> the second volley, that's when it clicks in your head. >> yeah. >> when you hear that second volley, what did you do? >> we kind of looked at each other in shock. because at that point it sounded as if it was inside the park. >> you thought it might be
someone with a weapon there in the venue? >> correct. and at that point we turned and headed into the crowd. >> we were just seeing gunshot injury after gunshot injury. there was a couple of people laying on the ground, unresponsive. we figured they had been deceased. so at that point in time we did what we could to get people in the medic tent, triage as much as we could. still more injuries by the gates. we ran down there. i remember having to grab anything we could to perform as a gurney. so we used anything that had wheels on it. trash cans, wheelbarrows. >> injured people, putting bodies on there? >> literally putting them in, wheeling them out, just to get them out. >> one young lady, she came out of nowhere, she said, i've been shot. she collapsed right on me. we did what we could. gunshot wound to her upper left arm. we treated her. i found myself without medical
bandages or anything. i bass taking clothing and what was left -- >> knife? >> yeah. used a knife to cut tourniquets to stop as much bleeding as i could. after that he literally -- we stopped, started stopping vehicles, throwing people in vehicles, sake get them to the hospital as fast as you can. >> when you're performing cpr on one person and you're doing compressions and breathing, compressi compressions, breathing, checking for pulse. then -- after doing that two or three times, there's no pulse. we were having to literally get up and move on to the next person. you know, you come across a woman who -- you don't even know it's a woman because there's a man over her, just sobbing. because it's his wife or his girlfriend. the people, i mean, really, it's not even -- i mean, the first
responders did awesome. but the people inside the event, inside the concert, there was so many people that stepped and up just said, hey, what can i do? >> former law enforcement, former veterans, off-duty paramedics, nurses, which did awesome job in the triage area. people just coming together, just amazing to see. how people would just say, look what can we do? offering their own shirts to provide tourniquets, offering to help carry people out. individuals taking it upon themselves to run right back into the venue. >> there was a guy who used his own belt as a tourniquet on himself. and kept telling the medics, don't worry about me. and went back in. >> you've served in war. you guys have worked security for years. you've been through stuff, i imagine. have you ever been in anything like this? >> i was involved in a lethal encounter a few years ago.
it was in the line of duty incident. but nothing like this. nothing like a barrage of gunfire coming in, multiple casualties, mass casualties coming in. law enforcement, firefighters, ambulance, medics, you all prepare for those mass -- but i don't think anyone was really prepared. you train for it. you don't know you're really prepared until you see it. i can honestly tell you, after the training i've done and been through, i've never seen anything like this. >> i've been where there have been shootings. but you knew the direction they were coming in. >> yes, you had an idea. >> you knew at least the area of where the suspect was. you could tell where the gunfire was coming from. >> your son called you? >> yeah, my son, he's in afghanistan right now. he called me the following day
just to check on dad, make sure it was okay. >> what did he say to you this. >> he says, "dad, you're taking more fire over there than i am over here, what's going on?" he was just happy to hear that i was okay. ahead, the president's surreal, balling visit to puerto rico. how he tried to turn it into a personal victory lap. that moment right after this. a heart transplant... that's a whole different ballgame. i was in shock. i am very proud of the development of drugs that can prevent the rejection and prevent the recurrence of the original disease. i never felt i was going to die. we know so much about transplantation. and we're living longer. you cannot help but be inspired by the opportunities that a transplant would offer. my donor's mom says "you were meant to carry his story".
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donald trump will be here in las vegas tomorrow. today he visited puerto rico to tour the hurricane-ravaged island and meet with residents and local officials who have been begging for help for more than a week. this is what they got at the first event after the president landed. >> brock long has been through a lot. wrong has been unbelievable. your governor has been, who i didn't know, i heard very good things about him. he's not even from my party. and he started right at the beginning appreciating what we did. right from the beginning. this governor did not play politics. he didn't play it at all. he was saying it like it was. and he was giving us the highest grades. so congresswoman jennifer gonzalez colon. who i've watched the other day, and she was saying such nice things about all of the people that have worked so hard. i saw those comments and everybody saw those comments and
we really appreciate it. and i also want to thank linda mcmahon, small business. she has done an incredible job. built a great company with her husband, advice mcmahon. we want to thank you, linda, very much. nick mulvaney is here, right there. mick is in charge of a thing called budget. i hate to tell you, puerto rico, but you've thrown our budget a little out of whack. because we've spent a lot of money on puerto rico. and that's fine. we've saved a lot of lives. if you look at the -- every death is a horror. but if you look at a real catastrophe like katrina, and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died. what is your death count as of this moment? 17? >> 16, sir. >> 16 people certified. 16 people. versus in the thousands. you can be very proud of all of your people, all of our people, working together.
>> after teasing the puerto ricans assembled about how much their disaster was costing the federal government, the president bragged about spending hundreds of millions of dollars on new jets for the air force was the president was correct about the relatively low number of deads in puerto rico confirmed this afternoon, although the number updated to 34 and as fox reports puerto rico has been slow to update their death toll and experts expect the number to shoot higher as more information comes in. ahead congressman luis gutierrez on what is really happening in puerto rico, next.
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governor and his comments. he has said, we have done an incredible job. and that's the truth. >> donald trump visited puerto rico today, which is still struggling after being hit by hurricane maria. almost two weeks ago. after lavishly praising his own administration, the president visited a relief center. here he is handing out rolls of paper towels, tossing them into the crowd as if he were shooting basketball. the president handed out flashlights while telling the folks in the room, you don't need them anymore. the vast majority of american citizens in puerto rico do need flashlights because 90% of the island remains without power and more than half of households don't have clean running water in the united states of america. "new york times" reporting today that because supermarkets can't access computer systems, food stamps are unusable. many families having to rely on anybodies for food. much of that didn't seem to reach the president. hallie jackson tweeting, potus on air force one asked about any constructive criticism he heard today, we only heard thank yous
from the people of puerto rico. congressman luis gutierrez met with fema and local government officials in puerto rico this weekend, he joins me now. your reaction to the president saying he didn't get constructive criticism, he just got thank you, people saying he's doing a great job? >> how sad. how disgraceful. that when people are suffering so greatly, when there is such pain and anguish and fear, about what the future presents to millions of american citizens on that island, that he would act with such folly. and silliness. this is very serious. and i think the president of the united states, i hope that on his way back, if he's already here, maybe tomorrow, go by the vietnam memorial and see the hundreds of names of puerto ricans that are etched in that wall, who gave up their lives, that didn't say they had bone spurs.
they responded and they gave up the ultimate, their life. korea, world war ii. then there was no doubt, they were citizens when they were called to defend the nation. they were citizens. then there was no question, there was no tallying how much is a life worth. they paid the ultimate tax. and so what an offense to the people of puerto rico. i just want to say, chris, you know what i saw? i saw people coming together as neighbors, giving the very little they had so that their neighbor could survive. cobbling together a unity that i've never seen before. i've never been prouder of my puerto rican heritage or of the people of puerto rico. i only hope that if i were ever to confront that in my city of chicago that the same dignity and the same poise would be that i would see from my neighbors and my fellow chicagoans. that's how proud i am of them. >> what i have heard from people that i've been in touch with on
the island and from other reports is there really is this bottleneck problem. it doesn't really seem like it's gotten a whole lot better. and it's worrying that there are supplies, there are things that are needed, and getting them out to the people that need them has been the obstacle, the last mile problem. have you heard that as well? is the federal government doing enough to make that happen? >> look, we should have a carrier out there with a couple of hundred helicopters sending in relief. chris, what the people have to understand is the topography of puerto rico. you think of puerto rico, you think of beaches, you think of ocean. no. the majority of the island is mountainous. and there are hundreds of thousands of people. the bridges have been washed away. and the roads. and they're trapped. what we need is to build those temporary bridges, go in there and rescue them. and then put them in a safe place. i wish, chris, you and i could
rook at the e-mails that i get from my constituents, which i must believe are being replicated. there was a woman, she buried her 58-year-old brother. he died the day of the hurricane. three days later, there was no place to put him. she buried him in her backyard. another couple finally made to it puerto rico because their mother had died. by the time they got there, she was already cremated because they couldn't keep her any longer. the death toll is going to increase. this is what the hurricane has taken away, so many precious lives. but guess what, that same hurricane will take away more lives because of the inaction after the terrible fury of that hurricane and the wind and the rain. and that is what is so regrettable. we cannot stop a natural disaster from occurring like a hurricane. what we can do is be prepared and not start talking about, well, this is going to cost us
so much. what's the life of a human being worth? what's the life? it's priceless. and that is something that i think this president just never is going to understand. >> all right, congressman luis gutierrez who was in puerto rico over the weekend, thanks for making the time. >> thank you. still to come, with gun stocks up in the wake of the deadly shooting here behind me if las vegas, i went to a local gun shop to talk about why people are coming into the store and why they need more than one gun, just ahead.
after the horrific mat customer in las vegas we once again saw a troubling phenomenon. a jump in gun stocks following the historical pattern we've seen after a mass shooting. traders appear to be anticipating an increase in gun sales, and with good reason. after the san bernardino mass shooting, for example, in december, december 2015 handgun sales spiked 52% according to one gun industry expert. after that san bernardino attack i visited a local gun shop to find out what was on the mind of the people who sell firearms and earlier today i did the same in las vegas, stopping into briarhawk firearms and ammunition to speak with store manager art neffert. >> i've been in other gun shops, particularly in san bernardino i was in a gun shop a few days after that attack. and they were getting a lot of calls. >> sure. >> he said when something like that's on the news, you get people calling who feel upset and scared. >> right.
>> asking about purchasing a weapon. has that been your experience? >> we get that on a daily basis here. today has really not been that much different, other than a few calls. not much different than our average day, as far as those kinds of calls. >> you got a call from a eye guy who said he'd seen on the news he could just come in and buy a happened sghun. >> that's correct, that he heard on media you could just walk in and purchase a gun, over the counter no background check no anything. that's one of the problems we deal with is the miss hoof information misinformation. we go through background chekts. department of safety run local, state, and federal. you've got to pass the background check. they give us one of three answers. yes, no, or three-day delay. >> for any ghun? >> any gun. >> the way guns operate in our country, it's two sides, it's political and it's also cultural. people who walk around who don't have guns, they don't understand why other people have guns, they
think guns are scary, their interface is they see the news and someone got shot. then there's people that have a lot of guns and it's part what was their culture is. what do you want to say to the people on the other side of that? who think why does anyone need these things? why do you need five of them? what do you say to them? >> why do you need two cars? why do you need anything? people are hobbyists. they're shooters, they're hobbyists, they get into it as a sport. that's primarily where. but you know, usually we -- the knee-jerk reaction is we need to pass another law. well, i'm prior -- have prior law enforcement experience. i can tell you, you know, what the philosophy is, i don't understand it, because, oh, the criminals ignore the first 200, 300 laws we pass, so this is going to scare them so bad they're going to turn in their weapon? no. >> yet the other side of this, talking to gun owners, you guys do have a fair amount of
regulation. and you fold it into your point of sale. >> right. >> it's burdensome on one level, but also at this point like the background check is like, that's just what you do. >> it's what we do. we keep paper records, the atf for 20 years. we co-operate with federal, stae and local regulations. we do what is right by our conscience. if we had somebody that may even pass a background check and we still think this just doesn't feel right, we're probably going to turn them away. we had an incident awhile back that one of our people here just eluded to a minute ago, we had a young fellow that came in and had bandage on his head just beaten up and wanted to buy a gun and we said no, sorry. come back in three or four days when you cooled off and maybe we'll talk to you. you don't -- you have to be a psychologist and a good judge of people to actually be behind these counters. you just don't sell somebody
something. you know, what is your need? are you going to use it for? why do you want it? those are the questions i ask on a daily basis. >> if i come in and said i never handled a gun in my life. >> what do you want to use it for? >> what's the answer for that? >> typically self-defense. everything is scary right now. they are seeing this chaos. not necessarily with what the tragedy that just happened but in general. high crime rate. the news. so they want something for their own home protection. >> my thanks to art who was very, very gracious with his time today. lawrence o'donnell joins me to talk about the way mass shootings can act as advertisement for guns. don't go away. when you have a cold
will people know it means they'll get the lowest price guaranteed on our rooms by booking direct on choicehotels.com? hey! badda book. badda boom! mr. badda book. badda boom! book now at choicehotels.com we are back here covering the las vegas coverage. i'll joined by lawrence o'donald. great to have you here. real phenomenon we've seen after mass shootings, not just the stocks going up in anticipation but gun sales going up. >> it's a market that can't learn apparently because it seems to be a reaction to the idea that oh, well, now they are going to legislate some kind of control that will prevent me from buying that thing i'm going
to the gun store today to buy, and we never do that. we never legislate that control. so it's a reaction to something that we have proven won't happen, and the market including the stock market continues -- the stock market is fairly rational because what they are doing is rushing to those stocks because they know the demand for the product will go up temporarily so they rush into them temporary and the big movers know they will move out of the stocks because there is going to be a little bump right now. but, you know, o'bryan said when did this become a ritual? it makes you stop and think about all of the components of the ritual which include what happens at the gun stores and what happens in the stock market. >> what you say about regulation, i remember talking to a gun shop owner in maryland who talked about after barack obama was elected, never had better business. those few months, you know, was like get them while you can. there is also another aspect. i was talking about what is the
profile of your first time gun purchaser? there is people i grew up around guns and feel comfortable and want them but the person that says i wake up on a tuesday, today is the day i need one and it is -- it's fear, right? this idea that like when you watch that happen, you think jesus, maybe i should -- >> well that's what you pick up, that first time gun buyer is in reaction to something like this including by the way something like this and doesn't mean that the gun buyer thinks if i had been at the concert and had a handgun it would have been different. that isn't it. this delivers a message of the scope of danger in the world and it reminds people of other closer dangers. i mean -- >> talk about chaos. so striking to me. the world is on fire. it does feel that way if you cover or watch the news. >> fear in the immediate aftermath of these things is not -- doesn't know any real boundaries. friends of mine here in las vegas that kept their kids home
from school on monday and i -- and i didn't get into the discussion of why because i knew that their reaction at that point was so raw that even if the news media said there is absolutely nothing for anyone to worry about in las vegas today, and there wasn't the slightest hint that there was anything to worry about at the school, i can understand why people would extend that fear into what will happen at school today. >> there is also this thing that happens. part of the coverage here, you know, right and you see the object and there is some sort of power they weld and smoking and everyone in the movie, you know, smoke. that's part of it, too. >> yeah, you can see there is -- for some gun owners including this guy in the hotel, we don't know when the slippery slope
began for him into the madness. the mental illness spot he got to with the massive possession of firearms that created this moment. those two things had to happen. it wasn't just that he lost his mind. he had to be on a slippery slope of losing his mind in the country where there was a lim unlimited access to him for guns. he would pass a background check. nothing would slow him down at any point so what -- if we can ever put his life together so that we could watch where this -- where that slope turned bad, was it at the fifth gun? and did that coincide with some negative event in his life and what drove him up to the 40 guns? >> yeah. and the motive on this, we should say, at this hour remains sort of -- >> well, the motive for me is always the same. it's a person at that point on that day if not before completely lost his mind.
vegas casinos. places tens of thousands of dollars worth of bets in recent weeks. but why he did this, they simply have no clue. they know he has been acquiring weapons over the past several months. he has bought at gun stores in nevada, possibly outside the state as well. that part of nevada he is from, mesquite, is right on the border. so he could go to other states to try to buy weapons and have them sent back to the gun dealers in nevada 20 do it legally. but the big question here is how did he acquire automatic weapons. you've heard the sounds on the videos of these rapid shots. machine guns are illegal in the u.s. but it's possible to buy conventional semiautomatic weapons, meaning they fire every time you pull the trigger, but just one round and convert them. but that conversion process can make the weapons illegal. so the authorities are trying to figure out how he managed to get
his hands on these automatic weapons. he had some of those in the room. he had sniper rifles with scopes. so he clearly intended to have a great deal of firepower. they say when he checked into the hotel last thursday, he had all this arsenal with him in ten suitcases. so ten pieces of baggage. so nobody would have seen obviously that he was carrying in weapons to the hotel, chris. and they say that while he was there thursday, friday, saturday, sunday, and then into today, he didn't -- he didn't have them out in plain view that the hotel housekeeping staff had been in and out of his room and never noticed anything out of line. >> well, that's horrific. what about his father being in the ten most wanted list? what do you make of that? i don't believe in sort of inherited psychopathy. but what do you make of it? >> well, it's certainly something that they want to look
at. his father, benjamin hoskins paddock was arrested for robbing banks in phoenix in 1960, and then in 1968, while he was serving a 20-year sentence for the conviction on that, he scaped. that's what you're looking at now is his wanted poster from the fbi back in '68. then they described him on that poster, chris, down there at the bottom wrun it says caution as somebody who is diagnosed as psychopathic and has suicidal tendencies. and whether it means anything or not, after he -- escaped -- rather, after he robbed the bank in phoenix, he was arrested in las vegas. >> wow. >> so the paddocks have some connection to las vegas. they've been in and out of that area. they lived in arizona and nevada. so this is a part of the country that he is comfortable with. but what the father's background has anything to do with his current frame of mind, we just have no way of knowing.
because, chris, none of the usual indicators here, none of the electronic breadcrumbs seem to be in place. no social media. no note left behind. no at this point obvious internet conversations that we know of. none of these little indicators we tend to have found by this many hours after these past shootings. >> wow. great reporting, pete. we're going find out more as the days go on i'm sure. i'm joined right now by mick akers, a report were "the las vegas sun." that must be something of a lead that the father was on the most wanted list and was listed in the most wanted poster as psychopathic. >> definitely. although he has no background, really. it just adds a little something there. >> what do you know right now about this witnesses? what witnesses do we have on the 32nd floor where he was shooting from? >> yeah, i spoke with one gentleman from atlanta. he said he was about five rooms
away. he was asleep. between 10:00 and 10:15, he was awoken by hundreds of rounds of shots. he could smell the gunpowder. he immediately called the front desk. they said they're aware of an active shooter situation and to remain in his room. he said he hit the ground and waited it out. eventually metro police came up and escorteded him out of his room and down the 32 floors. >> let's get down the floors to the concert area. what do you know you can tell us about the casualty in this random 1200 feet away of a machine gunning of the crowd where he is just aiming the gun into the crowd and it's like a horrible lottery for those people. >> yeah. it just seemed like he was kind of playing a game. he would wait for them to get up and then start shooting. and once they would hit the ground, he would stop and then they would get up and he would start shooting again. a sister was 30-year-old and he was 20.
every time they would jump, she would jump on him. he had a longer life to live and more aspirations. she would gladly take the bullet for him. >> the shooter had some tripods. he also had a scope. you're telling me that he was a sniper. he could actually shoot personal targets from that distance? >> i'm not sure if he was able to do that. i know he was shooting at will. so i'm sure the 22,000 people there in attendance, it wasn't that hard for him to hit people even from that distance. >> thank you so much, mick akers for joining us. i'm joined now by brian hopkins. sea musician who was at l.a. night's concert. thank you. shortly after the shooting started hopkins and others ran for cover, eventually hiding in a large freeze attorney concert grounds. brian, tell us about your experience last night. >> it was -- it was kind of crazy. because when it happened, i wasn't sure what was going on. and we were right in front near the front of the stage.
and i heard bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. and people started rung. i grabbed a couple of girls right in front of me and my best friend, took off and got trampled. he got up and start eed running. and i took these people around the back side. i was backstage so i knew how to get there. and i ran down a wall, down the wall. and you could just hear bang bang bang bang bang happening. and you could hear it banging off the rooftop behind me and hitting around us. so i -- i don't know how -- i remember there was an opening where the entrance was to the right. and we ran into a fence. and i knew i could get over, but i couldn't get all the people that were screaming over. so i see this cooler. and when i opened it up, one of my friends was inside. and we just started throwing
people inside. it was about five feet off the ground. it was an actual freezer. and we locked ourselves in there. and we could hear -- we could hear the firing. and it was so cold inside. and the two young ladies that i was helping, they were amazing because they were calming down the one person and the guy who was throwing his fingers in front of the camera was banging on the walls. and we were trying to calm him down. and then i got up to open up the door. and there was more firing. so we shut the door. and i looked at my friend across the way. and i said everything is going to be okay. and he shook his head, like it's not. so we waited a couple of minutes. and i thought to myself, we're not going to die in here. and so i opened up -- he got up with me. we opened up the door. and someone had put a ramp up along the fence. and one guy jumped out. another guy jumps. and i asked the guy, the second guy to wait.
and i jumped down and i started helping the ladies get up over the fence until everyone was just trying to get over. and we were helping until the last two. and they were the two that i helped -- they stayed with me. and i couldn't get them over. so i turned to ron. and a police officer runs at me and screams "this way, this way." and i remember he is sweating and was just shaken up. but as soon as i get past him, he starts running to where all the noise is going for, all the bad is happening. he runs to it. and i'll never forget it. because then we were running down, and there was a body and body and another body. and the girls start to panic. and one of them started crying and wanted to call her dad. and i said keep running. and then we see a gentleman with a hole in his belly. and his friends trying to bring him to life.
and i started shaking, but it was keep moving, keep moving. and we run across the street. and there are people barricaded behind a bar. and the guy in the passenger seat was shot. and soy just told everybody run to the dark. just run. and people were following me. and we ran as far as we could run. but it still wasn't out of reach. it was like 50 yards. and two gentlemen on another side pull a gate so we can get me through and i could pull the gate open so everyone could get through this gate with us. and start running to hooters. it was terrifying and i don't -- i remember being calm during the whole thing. and as soon as i got home, i broke down. because i don't -- i should have -- part of me like oh, that fence, i can over that fence and i can get out of here. now and i ended up jumping in a cooler with everybody to try to keep them calm. but i didn't know if there were
shooters running around shooting and trying to get people quiet. i had no idea. and i lost my best friend. and i didn't know where he was. so i just stayed with these people. >> sir, i don't know you, but you have a good heart and you have great instincts for saving people. thank you so much, bryan hopkins for that incredible narration of the horror last night. >> thank you. >> joining us right now the nevada congresswoman adena titus. i've been watching. i hear automatic weaponry. i heard a machine gun. and i heard it relentless. it's a lot of clips, a lot of bananas. just kept firing and firing and firing. this guy goes into a hotel room with over a dozen weapons. what does it tell you about the state of las vegas and the law in las vegas? what should it be? what have we got here? >> well, i have to commend law enforcement here in las vegas, along with first responders and with the private security at mandalay bay. i don't know how you could have prevented this. they are looking at now las vegas being more of a hard
target than a soft target to see how we can improve security. but if you look at what all they did, they saved lives. as you heard mr. hopkins saying, running into the area that was full of people who were being harmed. >> well, what do you make of the elements at work here? i don't want to make this into a night of crusade on a night of horror where we should just sort of grieve and accept reality for a while. this guy zbees a hotel with weapons and tripods and scopes, everything with a clear intention to use them. he wasn't going to carry them home with him. is there anything we can do about stopping the act, this kind of act? >> well, you've got to remember, these were all in suitcases. he was staying for several days. he was in a sweet. the housekeeping staff had been in and out and not seen anything out of the way because nothing was visible. what do you do to check people's suitcases when you come in? that's something to look at. but i can tell you, we don't
want to make it political on this day of mourning, as you said. our office is trying to be of service and of solace. but have i stood for one too many times for a moment of silence on the floor of the house. >> i just wonder by picking up at least suitcases with guns in them, i would notice they were extra heavy. anyway, thank you. i like your patience with us tonight and your judgment. we'll get to this debate later. u.s. congresswoman dina titus of las vegas. still ahead, new details about the gunman himself, who he was, and what we know about his motive. boy, that's the question of the night, motive for last night's horror. those people were all alive this time yesterday. in fact, this time they were all alive and never expected this horror. they were going out to a concert. and that guy ended their lives. this one guy did it. we've got to find out why. our coverage continues after this.
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we're learning more about the suspect in last night's mass shooting. 64-year-old stephen craig paddock had been gambling significant amounts of money at las vegas's casinos over the past few weeks. today our nbc station in orlando caught up with the suspect's brother. here is what he said. >> our condolences to everyone. we just don't understand. it's like i said, an asteroid just fell out of the sky, and we have no reason, rhyme, rationale, excuse. there is just nothing. i mean, he has no criminal record. he has nothing, nothing, nothing. >> nbc news correspondent katie bank joins us from mesquite, nevada near the suspect's home. katie, thank you. what can we find out from his house? >> well, chris, we are actually in his community, which is a sleepy retirement community in
the desert. it's about 80 miles from las vegas. this is an upscale neighborhood where people largely come to relax. that's where his brother thought he was come to do when stephen paddock moved in here in 2015. what we have witnessed today is basically police executing a search warrant on his home, looking for any type of evidence, any time of clue that could solve the mystery behind the motive. why did he do it? what was the motivation? and what lies in that house that could potentially solve that for them. they have been in there throughout the day, trying to find anything that would give them those answers. late this afternoon, they finally wrapped up. and when they did come out, we learn they'd had left with 18 firearms, several thousand rounds of ammunition and explosive devices, among other things. they weren't giving us exact details on the other items that were taken out. we imagine they did some forensics on his computers, any type of communication that was on devices in that home. but we are told they have completed the execution of that
search warrant. and now they're going sift through that evidence and see if there is a motive in there somewhere. chris? >> you mean 18 weapons in addition to that almost that amount in the hotel room? is that right? >> correct. and we have also learned independently -- that is correct. we also learned independently that paddock bought several firearms from a gun store just two miles down the road from us here. the store owner told us the background checks were completed when he purchased those firearms, and he didn't see anything in paddock that would strike him as unfit to own a gun. >> well, they are ar-15s. thank you, cattie beck in mesqui mesquite, nevada. a gunman callously opened fire on thousands of people at a country music festival. in the aftermath, the big question is why did this guy do it. >> do you have any kind of motives we're looking at? >> no, ma'am. i can't get into the mind of a psychopath at this point. >> this is a classic wmd.
this is a weapon in a man of mass destruction. >> this is a crazed lunatic full of hate. we don't know much about his background. >> well, statistics we're told show the vegas gunman is 64 years old, was twice the age of the average mass shooter, whatever good that tells us. in interviews with his brother eric said that his brother was not a normal guy and frequently played high stakes video poker. we're getting kind of a disconnect there. not a normal guy and never been in any trouble. we'll see how that fixes together. i'm joined by clint van zandt, former fbi agent and msnbc contributor. clint and candice, what do you make of the combined accounts from the brother? one, sea law-abiding guy and never broke any rules, but he is not quite normal. what? how does that sound to you? >> well, to me, this guy is really an anomaly. so far we don't have any of the
indicators that we see in the past. we don't see money. we don't see health issues. we don't know about girlfriends. we know he is older than the average age. we know he lived in a retirement where he should have been drinking beer and watching baseball instead of accumulating 35 weapons. and ammonium nitrate, all you have to do is mix fuel oil and you have oklahoma city. whether this is two personalities, the one he showed his family and the rest of the world and one he kept hidden, that's still something we have to learn. >> candice, what do you make of the father? the father being on the most wanted list and described in the wanted posters as psychotic? >> well, he was described as psychopathic, which is different. basically, it's a personality disorder where someone just lax empathy. they never feel guilt or remorse for anything they do, which makes it easy for them to commit crimes and become a criminal. it's my understanding the father tried to run down a cop, which
is why he was on the ten most wanted list. >> i see. >> it does make me wonder. that happened in 1968. and offender, the shooter in las vegas was i think born in 1954-'55, what his home life was like. he is being raised by a criminal. we don't know all that much yet. in regards to the brother's contrary statements, chris, it's rare for families to come forward after something like this and say i knew something like this was going to happen. even if they did. >> boy, that's intelligent. let me get back to clint on that. what do you think? it sounds right to me. you don't want to incriminate yourself by saying i knew the guy was heading for trouble. >> well, you know, ted kaczynski's brother raised his hand and said i think there is a problem with my brother. when i was an fbi agent, i sought his father. his father was top ten most wanted fugitive.
and we were looking for guy in the 70s. when i heard that name, there was a distant bell. but again, i don't know that -- you made the comment earlier. i don't know if there is a connection there. we don't know how much influence the father had over him there is a lot of things, chris there is so much we don't know and so much we need to know. we got three things. we got a deal with the psychology of shooters, how to understand their motivation and get in front of them instead of behind them. we have to limit their access to guns. and we have to develop technology that's going help law enforcement react faster. it took an hour and five minutes. and the cops did the very best job the world can do. it still took them an hour and five minutes. what, for example, if they had a remote controlled plane, a little hand-held robol that you throw up in the air. it goes up to the 32nd floor and it says gee, there the guy is. we need to get ahead of these guys. >> yeah. >> in technology, in thinking and psychology. we can't be behind them all this
time. >> candice, what do you make of the -- i'm not calling this guy mcgyver or anything like that to make light of it. but he did have the capacity to go out and get the magazines. he had all the firepower. heed that scope. he had the tripod. he knew how to break open a window. he knew hotels don't have open windows anymore. office buildings don't either. he seemed to have the whole thing scoped out intelligently. and if he wanted to commit mass mayhem, he did it. so in terms of his effectiveness, does that tell you anything about his psychology, that he has a competence that is frightening to go with his bad psychology? >> well, it tells me something about his state of mind. for example, let's compare him to james holmes, the young colorado -- university of colorado student that went into the heater in aurore rachet. >> right. >> it turns out he was seriously mentally ill, as bad as it gets, psychotic, hearing voices,
delusional. and he did a lot of planning as well. but it certainly wasn't on the level that the las vegas shooter's planning was. one of the things that strikes me about what happened in las vegas is that this person, for 72 hours at least was able to plan things out, not apparently jump ahead. maybe he was waiting for sunday night because that was the big event. that was the end of the concert. the headliner was playing. that tells me he probably was not hearing voices, was not delusional. >> yeah. >> there is a famous or a notorious shooting back the '60s at the university of texas. charles whitman went up to the clock tower, and one by one killed 13 people before he was killed bay cop. and it turns out the autopsy revealed that he had an undiagnosed brain tumor. things like to, brain tumor, we know what chronic encephalopathy
can do. there may be something turn up in his physical and mental health that will help explain this madness. >> back then it was rarity, candice. now it's not anymore. thank you. mass shooting. clint van zandt, as always, thank you, sir, candice delong. coming up, law enforcement is being credited with saving many lives last night. we're going look at the police work that went into finding the shooter. our coverage continues after this. [bullfighting music] [burke] billy-goat ruffians. seen it. covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
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welcome back to "hardball." our coverage of the deadly shooting in las vegas last night. with the las vegas metropolitan police were quick to mobilize amid reports of the shoot iing last night. the challenge was determining exactly where the shots were coming from. a police scanner captured the response among law enforcement officials as they tried to locate the shooter. >> coming from upstairs in the mandalay bay. upstairs in the mandalay bay, halfway up. i've seen the shots coming from mandalay bay. halfway up. >> we have an active shooter. we have an active shooter inside. >> i'm going to form a strike team. mandalay bay and the boulevard. i need five officers on me. >> be advised. it is automatic fire, fully automatic fire from an elevated position. take cover. >> fully automatic fire. everyone is saying that now. law enforcement made their way to the 32nd floor of the mandalay bay resort, closing in on the room where gunman stephen
paddock had massacred his victims from over a thousand feet away. let's listen to the moment they breached the door with explosives. >> we're going to sit on the suspect's door. i need everybody in the hallway to be aware of it and to get back. we need to pop this and see if we get any type of response from this guy. >> on the 32nd floor, explosive breach. all units move back. >> breach, breach, breach. >> that was the explosion opening the door on the 32nd floor to where the shooter was shooting from. according to sheriff joseph lombardo, they believe he killed himself before the room was breached. he said 15 guns were found inside and chemicals commonly used in explosives were found in his car. 18 additional firearms were also found at his home in mesquite. i'm joined by shawn henry, former executive assistant of the fbi, and david shepherd, served 24 years in the fbi. he is the former executive director of security for the
venetian resort hotel and casino. darrin, you start. i want to talk about the problem with these very high-rise hotels and the difficult in this case of locating the shooterment your thoughts. >> well, of course it's a difficult and arduous task when you have a high-rise. but one of the things that alerted law enforcement to the position of the suspect was the smoke detector. he shot -- he fired so many rounds while he was in the room on the 32nd floor, the smoke detectors ignited. and that's what triggered the response to the 32nd floor. but whenever you're trying to pursue a suspect in the high-rise, and take into consideration a place like new york city, it's always a very arduous task. oftentimes you may not want to use the elevators. you may want to use the stairs to go up. but once again, you need to be in great shape to get up 32 flights of stairs to encounter that assailant in that room. >> why wouldn't you want to use the elevator? >> because a host of things. the assailant can actually stop the elevator himself.
and you don't want something like that to occur. take into consideration when ever there is a fire, you never use the elevator. fear of a malfunction with that elevator. and the same premise holds true with law enforcement responding to an assailant in a place like this. >> shawn henry, i want to ask you about this use of the fact that a smoke alarm was the indicator. which was the shooter's room. and that means it seems to me, if you want to follow that out, if they didn't have the smoke alarm, he would have kept shooting because they wouldn't have known where to find the guy for a while. >> i think they eventually would have found him. >> eventually. >> there were some reports from some of the neighboring guests about loud noises that were coming out. the officers that were out in the venue who were looking up and were reporting where they were seeing bright lights. and then from there, you count up and you count over. and you can start to triangulate on what the shooter's position was. i mean law enforcement in this case, chris, were very, very active in saving people, getting them off to a safe place, as
well as identifying where the shooter was. so that tactical team could get up, make that explosive breach, get into that room, and to eliminate or neutralize the threat. >> what do you make of a guy -- he obviously modified his semiautomatic. he turned into it a machine gun, by all the reports you. ucan hear the rat-tat-tat. he knew he could shoot four football fields away. four football fields away with some accuracy. was that the elevation that he wanted? he got the right room he wanted on the corner, which was the closest to the concert area. so much thought and calculation went into this thing, it seems to me. your thoughts. >> he absolutely had a strategic position. and the elevation provided him with that distinct advantage. i don't think there is anything to him in terms of marksmanship. i think he was trying to put as many rounds possible down range to try and inflict as much harm
as he could. those .223 rounds travel at a high velocity, and they do travel for a very long distance. i think he was trying to put as much lead down into that space to try and kill as many people as possible. and he certainly did that, chris. >> david, tell us about vegas and how this fits with your experience throughout with security for these hotels. because here you got protect people from somebody in the hotel. this isn't the usual guy stealing somebody's diamonds. this is a guy throughout with automatic weapon effectively shooting out the window. and knowing that he could break the window with a hammer, with whatever he used, a hammer-like object, whatever he had. this guy had it figured. >> he planned well from the beginning. this is something that a lot of the active shooters do. and what you're looking at is a person that wanted to do that. he planned. he looked for closest area. he planned it all out as much as he could. the security chiefs, we deal really close with the metropolitan police. we do a lot of training with them. we discuss different scenarios. we do the same thing for the
southern nevada counterterrorism fusion center to look at different type of events. and it's constantly going on. >> is there a lot of despondency about there? i'm sure there. vegas was built on people losing, not winning. everybody keeps talking back east here about how tens of thousands of dollars he lost in the last several days. my hunch is he brought those guns with him to do something with those guns. he didn't just somehow conjure up guns after he lost a few days at the gaming table. thinking wasn't -- this was a planned attack. he checked in on the 28th. so he had some time to coordinate his assault or his offensive against these individuals. but just going back to what you mentioned in terms of the aim, it was like shooting ducks in a barrel. we have 22,000 people right in front of him. it's the equivalent of throwing a bowl into the ocean. unfortunately, when you look at the weaponry that he used in this, it kind of remind me. i'm an ex-army officer. and it reminded me of my
training on the firing line. it was either a belt fed or a weapon that had a drum magazine. because there were numerous rounds that came in continuous succession. we only had three breaks. we had hundreds of rounds that were fired at these individuals. so there was no marksmanship deployed here. >> darrin, what do you make of this testimony we got from a live witness, bryan hopkins, that this guy was picking them off. they would get up. he would shout shoot them when they got up. they would get down, he would stop. he said he was shooting, he was sniepg. >> the witness or the person that shot is in the state of fear. so i can understand them looking at it from that perspective. but the truth of the matter is we just have a person firing aimlessly. he is destined to hit hundreds of people. >> okay. >> we look at three football fields. that's nothing when we look at a .223 or a .30-06 rifle. >> thank you so much. david shepherd, darrin porcher i just spoke with and shawn henry.
coming up, harrowing witness accounts continue following last night's shooting. we speak to one man who was just a few feet from the stage when the gunfire rang out. our coverage continues after this. it's called broccoli of cheddar soup.ve? i loved it, but it was like, "honey, i am way too decadent for you!" so i came up with o, that's good! a new line of comfort soups with a nutritious twist. we replaced a hunk of this... with velvety butternut squash. if i hadn't told you, you wouldn't know. comfort food that loves you back. o... mmm ...that's good!
out in this area. this was, if you can believe it, this was the staging area for police, emts, for fire crews, for everybody that was a first responder on that scene. it was completely littered with squad cars, mostly with units and guys in full riot gear and long guns going from hotel to hotel to hotel doing sweeps. as we arrived onscene, there was a crowd of people rushing our way because of the gunfire that was ensuing behind them. as we went in, we heard victim stories. as we've been hearing all day. we've been hearing about a woman that used the bodies around her to play dead, to escape the fire. we heard about a woman who hid in a bush to escape that gunfire. and people who were shepherding those folks from the scene in their cars away from the scene to safety. so tremendous stories of survival here on scene, chris. >> you're there for the scene. thank you, steve patterson with that great report in las vegas. one of the witnesses to last night's mayhem joins us by phone. buzz brainard is host of "the
highway" on xm radio. buzz, tell me about what you saw, what you felt, what you went through. >> well, we were in the artist tent, which is right off the stage. and it was our last -- our last performance of the three-day festival. and we'd been here for three days, and everybody was in a good mood celebrating. and we heard the bam bam bam bam bam. i think everybody just thought it was fireworks. and i heard that from everybody. and it happened again. people stepped out of the tent. and somebody said it might be some of the power lines above us. and then the third time we realized it was gunfire. and so we were lucky because we were in the backstage area where there was a lot of equipment and there was some tour buses. we immediately dove under the tour buses for cover. and the bullets were coming down you. could see them hitting the dirt in front of you. and the dirt would shoot up in your face. we stayed there for a while. and then security decide it was time for us all to leave. so we all got to run, everybody
backstage. and our quickest exit was right over the stage, running straight away from mandalay bay. and we joined -- we joined the masses of people that were
puerto rico tomorrow. i'm joined right now by nbc's hallie jackson at the white house. so what are the president's plans in terms of reacting to this horror? >> so i think you've seen some of it already, chris. you've seen the moment of silence. you've seen the president scramble the morning plans that he had. he was supposed to hold a deregulation event. instead he came out and delivered that speech. as you noted, calling what happened in las vegas an act of pure evil. this speech was more spiritual in tone than what we've heard from the president before. he used language about scripture, language about faith that he hasn't always talked about after moments like these. we then saw the president add to his schedule what we're watching right now, which is that moment of silence with the first lady, the vice president and the vice president's wife as well. and then sarah huckabee sanders said now is not the time to be talking about gun control, which here in washington some lawmakers, particularly democrats do want to have the conversation about. >> well, we have to wonder when we do have a conversation about it, if not now. anyway, nbc's hallie jackson at
the white house. incredible numbers injured in las vegas. officials are calling for blood donations. i'm joined now by nbc's jo ling kent who is at a blood drive in las vegas. jo ling? >> this line stretches about 150 yards. people have been standing here five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours. what they want to do is donate blood because the city has called for it. obviously there are 500 folks in the hospital injured who need that but what you see here is an outpouring of community support. it's a really remarkable feeling. even though this tragedy has hit las vegas so hard you, have you the public coming together in a way that a lot of people here say they've never seen before. and so as a result, you have families bringing groceries, donating food. big companies, small bake risks all coming out to make sure everyone is hydrated, that they're eating, that they're able to wait in line. and all the way around here, you see there are folks lined up, and they are all here to donate blood, chris. and they're not going to close down until they can't take
Chris Cuomo asks the tough questions to newsmakers in Washington and around the world.
Chris Cuomo asks the tough questions to newsmakers in Washington and around the world.
people? >> i'm very concerned, chris. i worked hard in a bipartisan way to get $380 million in election grants out and distributed to states. that's something senator klobuchar, senator lankford and others really fought for. and i'm trying this week in the election -- excuse me -- in the upcoming appropriations votes we're having in the senate to get another round of $250 million in grants to states so that they can strengthen their cybersecurity defenses so they can procure new voting systems and equipment. senator klobuchar was just on in the previous segment with anderson cooper. >> yep. >> she and senator lankford have a great bill, the secure elections act, that i think we should take up and pass that is a corollary or a complementary
referring to, chris, who testified today, clearly a career professional, was someone who had given clear warnings to the trump administration that this zero-tolerance policy would have heartbreaking impacts on children and would not end well. >> and it is completely reflective of a definitional change in who america is supposed to be according to this administration. it's part of our closing argument, but i wanted to thicken it out with your understanding of what happened in this hearing. senator coons, thank you very much. >> thank you, chris. >> all right. so this idea of what rudy giuliani said, what the president tweeted, and what the law might reveal about any collusion -- those three things, one of them is not like the others. and i'm going to point it out for you in a whiteboard to undo a whitewash, next. i'm captain obvious and hotels.com rewards me basically everywhere. so why am i hosting a dental convention after party in my vegas suite? or wearing a full-body wetsuit at this spa retreat? or sliding into this ski lodge with my mini horse kevin? because hotels.com lets me do me, right? sorry, the cold makes him a little horse. hotels.com. you do you and get rewarded. you're wearing a hat. that's funny.
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tricky when something can be true and untrue at the same time, and yet both aspects of it matter, right? we're going to explain right now. here's your premise. collusion does not equal a crime. here's what rudy giuliani, lawyer to president trump, said to cnn. >> which i don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about russians. you start analyzing the crime. the hacking is the crime. the hacking is the crime. >> that certainly is the original crime. >> the president didn't hack. >> of course not. >> he didn't pay them for hacking. >> collusion is not a crime. rudy's right. collusion is not a statutory crime under the federal code in this context. there will likely be no charge of simply collusion. now, one fine point for you legal eagles out there. yes, collusion is a crime for
the sec and the ftc, proscribing certain antitrust behavior. but like i said, that's out of context, okay? what we're dealing with here is a distinction, okay, without a difference, okay? what does that mean? it's a big deal. it's that he's saying they're different things but really they are the same. the media is stuck on this word game, a gotcha game. the key's being missed. it's a distinction without a difference. why? the key is the behavior, not the word. therefore, while rudy is right, this tweet by the president is wrong. collusion is not a crime, but that doesn't matter because there was no collusion except by crooked hillary and the democrats. how? how can rudy be right and trump be wrong? here's why. the behavior. the behavior is what matters to the legal analysis, not the word. why? because the term itself not being present as a statute is irrelevant. the side note to trump's tweet is does trump get that he just said in a tweet that what hillary did with the dossier is
not a crime? to his mind, you think he believes that? nope. he won't tweet that again if he thinks about it. be clear. if it were to be proven that trump or any of his people were doing what amounts to collusion with any of those who were intent on interfering in our democracy, there's plenty of potential criminal exposure because the behavior would be criminal. like what? conspiracy, okay? i'm going to truncate these things but i'm going to put up the statutes on there for you. you'll see it at the same time. what kind of conspiracy? well, to defraud the united states government. you can do it on a tax level. look at manafort. 30-plus charges related thereto. how out of this one type of behavior? because that's what can happen when they think you're colluding with somebody.
russia, what they were trying to do, was defraud the election. if you were in agreement with them or trying to help them, then you're going to get stuck for that collusion. an agreement to break any law, hacking, theft, distribution of stolen goods, information, would all be criminal and would be an extension of acts of collusion. aiding and abetting, okay? now, aiding and abetting has its own section under the criminal code, okay? why? because it goes to all types of being too helpful to the wrong people in the wrong types of situations. all of that is in the family of collusion. all right. now, what about money? money takes us into a whole other universe of when collusion becomes criminal. how was any money used in an exchange? how was it sent? how was it accounted for? bank fraud, wire fraud, laundering of money. many of mueller's team are experts in these areas. why did he pick them? so these laws, the statutes you saw, all stem from behavior that
is collusion. so collusion is not a crime, sure, by name. but the behavior of collusion can get you in a lot of deep water. what's the conclusion? keep your eye on the ball. collusion isn't a specific crime, per se, but it's not okay, and it leads to all of this mess and more depending on the facts and the proof. and that's where we must always stay focused. that's why i was talking to coons about what the bar for the mueller probe is. what can they show that is the only thing that we will know? that's the bar. nothing else matters. so there you have it. so what rudy said, what the government admitted about tearing families apart today, controversies or non-troversies? it is a great debate, and it is upon us next.
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separation at the border would happen and would be dangerous. let's get to the great debate. we've got jennifer granholm and david urban here. dave, let's see if i can shortcut this. you saw the whiteboard. admit that i am right about all of it, that this is just wordplay, and that the behavior of collusion at the end of the day can get you in plenty of poo-poo. >> chris, you're right. the behavior of collusion and the right set of circumstances obviously can, right? but as you pointed out correctly, it's all about the facts. it's all about the facts, brother. brother cuomo, right? we could hypothesize about a lot of things but let's wait and see what director mueller uncovers. conspiracy is a pretty broad word, and as you point out correctly in this case that's being tried in alexandria against paul manafort and conspiracy there to defraud the government, there's an overt act. it's pretty easy to prove. it has nothing to do with the russians.
so we'll wait and see. we'll just have to wait and see. it's all about the facts. >> well, we don't know that it has nothing to do with russians. it's just which group of russians and what they were doing and whether it really has anything to do with the probe is what we don't think we'll see. >> no. chris, in this case we do know because on july 10th, in response to a motion filed by paul manafort -- >> right. >> -- the government here, you know, director mueller's probe, they replied in a response in their brief saying this has nothing to do with russians or collusion or russian interference. >> right, in the election. >> right. >> but that doesn't mean that no russians were involved with what happened with him -- >> no, no. absolutely. >> that's the distinction i was drawing. all right. let me get you in here, jennifer granholm. the idea of what the president
is tweeting about and whether or not it matters, matters to you why? >> well, because we have a president who is constantly gaslighting the american public. he says that something is when it is absolutely not. i just -- it's so -- it's beyond words how horrible this president has been to the truth. we all know that. so when he says, oh, there's no collusion, and he tries to get his followers to believe that the word "collusion" is not going to appear in an indictment when manafort issues one against somebody, well -- >> mueller. >> excuse me. when mueller. you're right. when mueller does. so maybe the word doesn't admit, but you had as professor cuomo up at the whiteboard a list of actual laws that could be broken if there's a conspiracy. >> right. >> this is just engaged in semantic play. and when the president tries to pull the wool over america's eyes in so many ways, it just proves again and again that honestly, i can hardly wait till november comes so that we can give him at least the first
taste of the back of our hand. in 2020, the rest. >> dave urban, you see the back of the hand coming? >> listen, unfortunately i do in these midterms, right? midterms aren't necessarily -- these are a snapshot as the governor knows and you know, chris. look, congressional districts are very small, very insular little islands of the population. so, you know, the president's going to do poorly in places like new jersey, the new york suburbs, the philly suburbs. i don't think the president's going to do poorly in kind of the, you know, down in florida, in pennsylvania, in iowa, michigan. the president's not going to do poorly there. so the midterms are going to have an effect -- >> i don't know. >> well, that's your. >> we'll see. look, all of this is speculative.
it's all about turnout. that's what's going to determine the midterms. it always does. >> well, but -- >> it's manifest intention of the reaction formation. i know those are all big words, but what we saw in '94 and 2010 is i know you're upset about what's in there right now. here's what i want to offer you that's better. now get out there and vote for me. that's the equation, and we won't know until the polls open and close -- >> wait, chris. it's very true. but let's be clear that when you see russian interference like we saw today through facebook, russian interference against claire mccaskill and russian interference writ large in 2016, getting out the vote is going to be super important, yes. but there was a poll out today that showed that there are some republicans who think that interference by the russians to help the republicans is not such a bad thing. >> oh, come on, governor. >> come on. >> come on, governor. if you're going to blame the democrats for poor performance. you can't blame -- you have to accept some responsibility for not having a coherent message across your party. >> there's a whole array of things. we don't have to relitigate
this. >> you can't blame the russians for the democrats failing. >> yes, i can blame the russians for interfering in this election. >> you can blame them for trying to interfere. >> they did interfere, and they sent thousands and thousands of ads to social media in places like detroit, where they held up pictures of aziz ansari with a text saying, hey, avoid the lines. text your support here. if that's not a voter suppression ad, i don't know what is. oprah winfrey, photoshopped, holds up a sign -- let me just finish. when oprah winfrey holds up a sign that says, first-time voter, you vote on wednesday. those are voter suppression ads. those were issued hugely in 2016 in michigan. hillary clinton lost by 11,000 votes. the purpose of the russian intervention is to cause people to be not just divided but to cause them to stay home. >> right. and you know what? >> that's what happened. >> in the obama administration, the democratic barack obama administration should have shut those down.
>> it would have been easier if mcconnell would have worked with them. >> so should the trump administration. [ overlapping voices ] >> obama should have done more, but mcconnell shouldn't have blocked his efforts. and now trump, it's on him now to see what he does. he's the president. >> you're right. and today secretary of dhs, kirstjen nielsen said we need to prepare for a category 5 event. >> what is he doing? >> so, governor -- >> he's been saying he doesn't believe there was a storm coming. he's been doing that for a long time, dave, and now they're starting to change their tune in the administration. we'll see what they do. >> can i just say -- >> i got to go. >> this is another case of classic incompetence. he had incompetence in puerto rico. he has incompetence --
>> incompetence in the obama administration -- >> and you're going to see another -- >> i hear you. dave has a point to. >> governor, incompetence of the obama administration? >> dave has a point. >> my head explodes when i see james clapper and all these former intelligence officials on this network complaining about russian interference when they were at the wheel when it all happened. >> we're talking about 2018, dave. you cannot continue to look in the rearview mirror. >> if you're talking about the past election -- >> here's the thing. we got to end it here. >> but, chris, you can say dave urban has a point. >> i just did. i said it two points. you don't hear me because you're yapping. what i'm saying is this. it all is true. it started in 2016. the obama administration didn't do enough. why? they didn't know as much as they eventually would know. they were worried about outcomes, and mitch mcconnell was pushing back on them. they weren't going to get cooperation. it was going to be a partisan move. then the trump administration had this ball in their hands a
long time. trump wanted to pretend it doesn't exist because he thinks it's bad for him. and now the election is upon us, and we'll see how safe they can make us. >> we need to protect americans' democracy. >> we'll see. they got to do a lot more than they've done. >> we can agree on that. >> let's end on that. thank you very much. >> thanks, chris. last minute, federal judge puts a block on printable blueprints to make untraceable 3d firearms. the founder of the group that wants you to be able to make your own weapons with a click of the mouse wants you to hear his case. case. is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands?
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the 3d gun dispute. here's what happened today. a federal judge stepped in with a temporary injunction, okay? that's what it sounds like. this is not over. but for now, there will be no more blueprints to make 3-d printable weapons online but only for now. now, what's the white house position on this? they say the guns are already illegal, which is true. however, it is also true that the federal government settled a lawsuit that allowed these instructions to be posted online. alan gottlieb's second amendment foundation was part of that lawsuit. he joins us now. alan, welcome to "prime time," and thank you.
the government role in this is very confusing. i say we focus on what is more simple for people to absorb. you tell me why is it good for people to be able to download blueprints to make 3d printable weapons? why is this a good thing? >> well, first of all, chris, this is a first amendment issue that just happens to deal with firearms that are protected by the second amendment. putting computer code on the internet is a language. a language is speech, and speech is protected by the first amendment. you know, the reason why we're so concerned about being able to do it we've got places like san francisco now where there are no gun stores now for people to be able to buy a gun or places like alameda county in california where zoning ordinances put gun stores out of the county, or places like seattle that put taxes on guns and ammunition. what this does for the future is allow people to ensure a way to be able to have a firearm. you know, if you're allowed to own a firearm in your own home,
you should be able to make the firearm in your own home if you can't buy one locally because of crazy restrictions. >> okay. so two arguments. one is if anybody right now -- and they should -- not while we're speaking of course but in the commercial, google availability of firearms in california, they will find nothing that is speaking to a shortage of weapons in california, okay? plenty of guns. plenty of guns per capita. plenty of gun crime in that state as a result. and you're leaving something out in your first amendment analysis, which is the right to have what you're dismissing as speech. not everybody has a right to a gun, right? certain people fall into categories where they can't get them. certainly people fall into categories where they should not get them. and what you're trying to do apparently is give everybody a chance, even if they're in those categories. is that good?
>> no, chris, that's not what we're trying to do. in fact, all the laws that prohibit that stay on the books. we're not removing any of those whatsoever. >> you're not removing the law -- >> hold on. >> you're removing the mechanism for enforcement because you're giving people an ability to cut out all the necessary middlemen so they can't be vetted. they just have to take the blueprints. they make their own weapon. that's the point. >> chris, a criminal who is going to break a law or commit mayhem is going to get a gun now anyway like they always do or there would be no gun crime right now. >> but they're probably not going to make a very expensive 3-d printable gun. they'll just get one off the street. >> a few years ago when cody wilson put these plans on the internet, there were 100,000 to 200,000 downloads of the plans
to do it. lots of people have already made these guns. not one has been used in a crime. not one. so a lot of this is hysteria out there -- >> do we know that or we don't know that any have been caught committing a crime with a gun? >> well, we know it because they'd have the gun and be able to show it, and here's a 3-d printed gun. >> that's if they were caught. >> there's no crime report anywhere in the united states where anybody has misused one of these guns to begin with. >> but how would you know unless somebody were apprehended and was proven to have used one of them, right? >> well, you would know it by the ballistics or the bullet and everything else. >> it tells if it's a ghost gun? >> you mentioned, chris, in california, there are guns all over right now and this gun crime. there's also a lot of self-defense with firearms in california as well, which you don't want to talk about. but the truth of the matter is we both know in california every year the restrictions get tighter and tighter and tighter. there's less places to buy guns and less guns for availability in california because gun -- we're looking to protect second amendment rights in the future by using first amendment rights
to do so. >> it's a need that outweighs the national security interest, which is what we've seen different courts say now. you have to balance it. how it will come out, we will see on the merits. i'll tell you what bothered me about this, and it wasn't you. but when one of the designers of the code, there was a restriction. why is it illegal? well, you've got to be able to detect these weapons when they go through a metal detector, and these have no metal. so they made a part that was metal in the weapon so it could be detected. however, that part is removable, and the weapon sometimes still functions. what the hell is that about? why would anybody want to make it so that you can remove what makes it detected and the weapon still works? why would you do that? >> well, first of all, if the weapon had a bullet in it, it would still be detected because the bullet would be detected. so again this is a little bit of hysteria. >> it's not hysteria. it's a question. what if you transport it without the bullets and you get the bullets somewhere else? >> well, if you're in a secure area where you're not supposed to be with a gun -- >> but why would you do that, alan? why would you stand behind somebody doing something as pernicious as that.
>> i don't. >> i hear you on the first amendment. i get that. but that just seems so afoul of what we want to protect against, which is a deceptive practice. why stand behind -- >> well, this is not a deceptive practice. if somebody breaks the law, they should be prosecuted for it. by the way -- >> you gave them the plans to do it is what i'm saying. go ahead. what's your last point? >> the tro is not against defense distributed, cody wilson. it was against the federal government. >> right. >> actually these plans can still be put on the internet because there is no tro against us doing it. >> well, what the judge said was for now he wants this held in abeyance so it should stay according to the reckoning of the washington state attorney, where it was before all of this. that's what they're hoping for right now, but in any case, it's certainly temporary. >> the plans have already been up and downloaded several thousands of times. >> that is true. like 2,500 times they've already been downloaded, and the question is how does this make us better and safer? we'll see how it plays out in the courts, and then you, sir, are welcome to come back and tell me why it's a good thing. >> thank you.
>> be well. >> i'll do that. thank you, chris. >> appreciate it. all right. so what happens now to anyone who has already downloaded these plans for guns? you get the flaw in the argument. well, we haven't seen any used in crimes. that's assumed that they were caught and apprehended as such. what are the legalities? what are the ramifications? cuomo's court in session, next. man: are unpredictable crohn's symptoms following you everywhere? it's time to take back control with stelara®. for adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease, stelara® works differently. studies showed relief and remission with dosing every 8 weeks. woman: stelara® may lower the ability of your immune system to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization. before treatment, get tested for tuberculosis. before or during treatment, always tell your doctor if you think you have an infection or have flu-like symptoms or sores, have had cancer, or develop any new skin growths, or if anyone in your house needs or recently had a vaccine.
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♪ ♪ olly. all right. this 3d gun thing, the fundamental merits of the case were not argued in court. so let's hash it out in cuomo's court. we have the perfect counselors. cnn legal and national security analyst asha rangappa and harvard law school professor emeritus alan dershowitz, author of "the case against impeaching trump." for the prosecution, rangappa, why is this wrong? >> well, this is wrong on so many levels. so first there is a law that prohibits the possession of undetectable firearms, so these plastic firearms. so as you noted, chris, in your earlier discussion, by definition, anyone who is downloading these instructions and actually makes these guns is
going to be an illegal gun owner of said gun. the first amendment argument, i don't think really goes anywhere. there are public safety exceptions. in 1997 after the timothy mcveigh bombing, senator feinstein passed an amendment making it illegal to post bomb-making instructions. so there are public safety exceptions to this. but i think really the practical effect is every day when you get on an airplane, you now have to worry about someone who may be sneaking in a plastic gun, and this is really just asking for potentially another 9/11. and i think that should be concerning to all of us. >> alan, the man who was just on argues, no, it's about speech. you should have the right to these ideas. these words are speech. these prints are speech. these designs are speech, and they should be protected. >> well, this is a terrible form of speech.
these blueprints are awful, and i want to totally dissociate myself from what your previous guest earlier said about this is good speech. it's terrible speech. but the question is, is it terrible speech that's protected by the first amendment? and the answer is clear. we don't know. we don't know. we've never had a case like this go to the supreme court. the earlier case called the progressive case, where they wanted to print instructions for how to make a hydrogen bomb, ended up being moot, and being moot for the reason that will probably make this case moot. by the time the case came to the court, the instructions were all over the place. anybody could easily find how to make a hydrogen bomb. >> how about the argument that they haven't seen it used in a crime? >> well, you know, that's not a good enough argument. look, the answer is that the court may very well say the instructions, the blueprints, are protected by the first amendment. but you should disable any machine from making this kind of weapon, not only prohibit the weapon, which we've already done, but also prohibit any 3-d
machine from being capable of making the weapon. that would raise a second amendment question. >> yeah. >> but second amendment issues are easier than first amendment issues. so in the end, i think the blueprints will be allowed to be shown, and that's a moot issue because they've already been shown. and anybody who wants to have access to this is going to be able to get it one way or another. >> and you have all the terrorist handbook stuff that's out there that falls into the same kind of categories. >> they're already out there. i don't want to compromise the first amendment. >> chris, can i add one thing here? >> yeah. >> you know, right now federal law protects gun manufacturers from tort liability, from being sued by people who get shot by the weapons they make. >> that's right. terrible law. >> these people are putting these instructions on, there are now reasonably foreseeable consequences to what they're doing. i think if any of these guns end up being used in a crime, they can expect to have their hands sued off of them and they
should. >> that's an actually interesting point. we got to leave it there. i was doing some research on this, and there was some jurisprudence early on in discussion of the first amendment that the first amendment's purpose isn't just to justify the most ugly and vile things that can be said. that that's not the standard always for enforcing the first amendment. it will be interesting to see if a judge takes that on at all. >> i think it is. >> but we'll see. thank you very much. don lemon is standing by with a preview of "cnn tonight" just minutes away. you know, this case really does strike at what could be so frustrating about the first amendment. we often err on the side, at least legally, on allowing things into the public discourse. even if we hate them and what they're about. but this is an interesting twist, because this isn't about just what you're going to say to me. it's going to be about what you allow me to do. >> uh-huh, and we do that because honestly, it protects
what you and i do. i'm sure you've been watching with jim acosta what he's dealing with and what we deal with all the time. this is quite different. i don't know how to categorize this one. i'm just going to sit back and watch. it's frightening. it needs to be protected. to the original first amendment about what we say and what we to the original first amendment about what we say and what we do. can we talk about the president a little bit and lebron james. missed you yesterday, wanted to talk. >> yeah, i loved watching it. i loved what he is doing. i loved the interview. >> a great interview. and, you know, i expected -- a lot of people attacked him. but the question is why is the president attacking him? because that's part of the strategy we have been told by the folks at, trump administration. and sources that he is going to continue to use this athlete, kneeling as a wedge issue up until the midterms which is, we have been talking about this. the right to freedom of
expression. does it go against these athletes. i don't know. but i think lebron james is doing a great thing. he speaks his mind. he knows what the first amendment is about. what it means to him. missed talking to him yesterday. >> what i loved. what a demonstration of putting your money where your mouth is. that is such a common criticism of athletes and entertainers. and boy, is he showing people that, i'll put my money there. great to see people follow suit. good job, don. nice addition to the -- >> real quick before i go. i like he is not concerned that he is going to tick some people off. he just, he feels that this is the right thing for him to say and do. see you in a little bit. >> all right, bud. immigration officials were grilled on the hill over family se separations. we learned something that i knew was going to come out. it's been denied. and now it's known as a fact. i'm going to give it to you in the closing argument. raises such a fundamental question afwut wbout who we are.
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559. that's how many kids are waiting for their mommys and daddies. but at least it wasn't intentional. right? wrong. today we learned the government apparently knew it was coming. knew full well it was heading down a reckless path of inhumanity. how do we know? a top hhs official. he has served three presidents. he told the senate judiciary committee about red flags raised. >> during the deliberative process over the previous year we raised a number of concerns in your program about any policy which would result in family separation due to concerns we had about the best interest of the child. >> there was plenty more he said
that made it clear that they knew what would happen. he was told simply family separation wasn't an official policy. nope? true. the official policy was to deter. that's what ag sessions said as much on tv. and deter how? fear, trauma, taking kids from parents. the message in never come back and let others know they will get the same. think about it. deported and your kids kept by the usa. we don't care if you are desperate for a better life or desperately fleeing a dangerous home or fleeing a community or government. you came illegally. that's all you are to us. that's the response from the administration. deny the act, deny the severity. the intention and the outcome. we just saw it today. from the head of enforcement and removal operations for i.c.e. listen to what they told the
committee. >> the best way to describe them is to be more like a summer camp. these individuals have access to 24 /7 food and water. they have educational opportunities. they have recreational opportunities both structured as well as unstructured. there's basketball courts and exercise classes and soccer fields we put in there. >> they got all those things in prison too, like a summer camp. giant windowless former big box store in texas. doesn't look like a summer camp i'd send my kid to, and i get these are different situations. think about it, diminishing those conditions, how do you justify it? easily if you don't care about the people who are in there. the u.s. attorneys are told to use the back handed legalese slur of alien as in illegal alien. i know it's in the law but it
speaks to something else. why don't they want to say undocumented? not harsh enough. that wording was important enough for the justice department to send out an agency wide e-mail. so here's our argument. if the trump administration wants to make america the home of the highly educated and the land of the economic engines, is that the only people you're going to welcome? then just say it. now, mr. president, don't try to sell that where we both come from in queens, new york, because it's filled with the people that you don't seem to want anymore. so take down the words on lady liberty. your adviser steven miller said the poem was added on later, that it isn't a statement of policy, and you know what? miller is right. those words are more than policy. they are the core of who we are, our essence. we are the unclean, the
other from controversial issues, from immigration issues, and they're doing it again. that's why we have to pass this bill so that you have clear information about who's paying for these ads and what they are. it's called the honest ads act, and it's a bill i'm leading with senator mccain and senator warner. >> senator, appreciate your time. thank you very much. the news continues. i want to hand it over to chris. "cuomo prime time" starts now. >> thank you, anderson. i am chris cuomo. welcome to "prime time." collusion is not a crime except when it is. and remember this isn't about words. it's about behavior. we have a lawmaker who is going to tell you the facts of what could be headed for anyone who did collude. he was also in that hearing today, and you will not believe what the government admitted about its plan to force families apart. there's senator coons. we'll be with him in a second. the mueller probe faces its first courtroom test today with
trump's former campaign chair on trial. we're going to give you the truth about what manafort might mean to the wider russia investigation. and with just hours to go, a judge blocked those blueprints for homemade, untraceable 3-d guns before they were published. but guess what? they're already out there, and the ruling is only temporary. so we have the man who wants all of you to be able to make your own gun. he's going to argue his case, and i am here to test it. i missed you, my friends. what do you say? let's get after it. so today the president tweeted, collusion is not a crime. but that doesn't matter because there was no collusion except by crooked hillary and the democrats. now, of course, the president has repeated his no collusion mantra many times. what matters in all this? let's bring in democratic senator and member of the judiciary committee, senator chris coons. good to see you, sir. >> great to be with you again, chris. >> what do you make of the
confusion over collusion? >> well, i think it's perfectly clear in federal law, and in fact i've got the statute with me. it's title 52, section 30121, that says it is a crime to solicit or accept anything of value from a foreign national in order to influence the outcome of a federal election. it's a longer section. i'm taking a sentence here and there, but that's the outcome. that's what it means. you can't accept or solicit a cash contribution or a thing of value from a foreign national in any way related to a federal, state, or local election. that's clearly a crime. and elsewhere in the criminal code, conspiring in order to commit a crime like that is also, itself, the crime of conspiracy. so while i'm not using the specific word "collusion," i'll remind you what the whole mueller investigation is about is whether or not the trump campaign worked with russian intelligence officers to solicit or accept a thing of significant
value. thousands of hacked e-mails that might have been used in order to determine the outcome or influence the outcome of the federal presidential election. >> now, while you started off there being a little narrow, right? you were being a little generous in terms of what collusion can yield as a crime. it actually starts to get very broad depending on your facts. look at paul manafort. you got 30-plus charges there. it can go lots of different directions depending on money, activity, and intent. so then you get to, what's your bar for mueller? i would argue that the mueller probe is supposed to be about what happened with russian interference, who helped, and what crimes arise in the pursuit thereof, right? that's his mandate. if the bar is whether or not the president or any of his people were involved in those russian efforts, don't you think whoever wants that to be the bar is going to be disappointed based on what we know so far? >> well, we don't know what the mueller investigation is ultimately going to produce in terms of clear, dispositive,
public proof. but it has certainly gotten closer and closer in recent months as the mueller investigation has produced indictments both of russian nationals, of specific gru military intelligence officers, and he has called out in great detail how they conspired, how they worked in order to undermine our election in 2016, and the manafort trial has already begun. there's been a series of indictments for other related actions by senior members of the trump administration or the trump campaign team. >> do you think manafort means anything to the wider russia probe? >> he may very well. manafort, as you know, is in part being accused of failing to report and laundering millions of dollars from a kremlin-supported ukrainian president, a strong man, leader of ukraine who was closely allied with the kremlin. there may be ways in which that relationship and the ongoing payments that he received from
ukraine is connected. it might end up being independent. that's really the challenge in front of special counsel mueller is to connect all the dots. >> then you have this broader array of influence that we see in facebook today, them shutting down accounts that they are now identifying, which you could argue they could have been doing all along. the idea that they don't know who's doing what on their platform is denied by the reality that if you and i were on facebook right now talking about what type of bass rigs we're using, all of a sudden i would get an ad for them popping up on my screen. >> that's right. >> so they can know, yet you have the vice president saying we know the russian interference didn't alter a single vote. no. we know there is no proof that any of the tabulation machines and the voting machines were affected by the hacking. but we don't know the impact of the propaganda. it's impossible to know. are you concerned about where we are in the next election and what might happen from the same people? >> i'm very concerned, chris. i worked hard in a bipartisan way to get $380 million in
Chris Cuomo asks the tough questions to newsmakers in Washington and around the world.
tricky when something can be true and untrue at the same time, and yet both aspects of it matter, right? we're going to explain right now. here's your premise. collusion does not equal a crime. here's what rudy giuliani, lawyer to president trump, said to cnn. >> which i don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about russians. you start analyzing the crime. the hacking is the crime. the hacking is the crime. >> that certainly is the original crime. >> the president didn't hack. >> of course not. >> he didn't pay them for hacking. >> collusion is not a crime. rudy's right. collusion is not a statutory crime under the federal code in this context. there will likely be no charge of simply collusion. now, one fine point for you legal eagles out there. yes, collusion is a crime for the sec and the ftc, proscribing certain antitrust behavior. but like i said, that's out of context, okay? what we're dealing with here is a distinction, okay, without a
extension of acts of collusion. aiding and abetting, okay? now, aiding and abetting has its own section under the criminal code, okay? why? because it goes to all types of being too helpful to the wrong people in the wrong types of situations. all of that is in the family of collusion. all right. now, what about money? money takes us into a whole other universe of when collusion becomes criminal. how was any money used in an exchange? how was it sent? how was it accounted for? bank fraud, wire fraud, laundering of money. many of mueller's team are experts in these areas. why did he pick them? so these laws, the statutes you saw, all stem from behavior that is collusion. so collusion is not a crime, sure, by name. but the behavior of collusion
can get you in a lot of deep water. what's the conclusion? keep your eye on the ball. collusion isn't a specific crime, per se, but it's not okay, and it leads to all of this mess and more depending on the facts and the proof. and that's where we must always stay focused. that's why i was talking to coons about what the bar for the mueller probe is. what can they show that is the only thing that we will know? that's the bar. nothing else matters. so there you have it. so what rudy said, what the government admitted about tearing families apart today, catastrophes or non--troversies. it is a great debate, and it is upon us next. fruits and veggies are essential to your health,
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david urban here. dave, let's see if i can shortcut this. you saw the whiteboard. admit that i am right about all of it, that this is just wordplay, and that the behavior of collusion at the end of the day can get you in plenty of poo-poo. >> chris, you're right. the behavior of collusion and the right set of circumstances obviously can, right? but as you pointed out correctly, it's all about the facts. it's all about the facts, brother. brother cuomo, right? we could hypothesize about a lot of things but let's wait and see what director mueller uncovers. conspiracy is a pretty broad word, and as you point out correctly in this case that's being tried in chaalexandria against paul manafort and conspiracy there to defraud the government, there's an overt act. it's pretty easy to prove. it has nothing to do with the russians. so we'll wait and see. we'll just have to wait and see. it's all about the facts. >> well, we don't know that it has nothing to do with russians. it's just which group of
russians and what they were doing and whether it really has anything to do with the probe is what we don't think we'll see. >> no. chris, in this case we do know because on july 10th, in response to a motion filed by paul manafort -- >> right. >> -- the government here, you know, director mueller's probe, they replied in a response in their brief saying this has nothing to do with russians or collusion or russian interference. >> right, in the election. >> right. >> but that doesn't mean that no russians were involved with what happened with him -- >> no, no. absolutely. >> that's the distinction i was drawing. all right. let me get you in here, jennifer granholm. the idea of what the president is tweeting about and whether or not it matters, matters to you why? >> well, because we have a president who is constantly gaslighting the american public. he says that something is when it is absolutely not. i just -- it's so -- it's beyond words how horrible this
president has been to the truth. we all know that. so when he says, oh, there's no collusion, and he tries to get his followers to believe that the word "collusion" is not going to appear in an indictment when manafort issues one against somebody, well -- >> mueller. >> excuse me. when mueller. you're right. when mueller does. so maybe the word doesn't admit, but you had as professor cuomo up at the whiteboard a list of actual laws that could be broken if there's a conspiracy. >> right. >> this is just engaged in semantic play. and when the president tries to pull the wool over america's eyes in so many ways, it just proves again and again that honestly, i can hardly wait till november comes so that we can give him at least the first taste of the back of our hand. in 2020, the rest. >> dave urban, you see the back of the hand coming?
>> listen, unfortunately i do in these midterms, right? midterms aren't necessarily -- these are a snapshot as the governor knows and you know, chris. look, congressional districts are very small, very insular little islands of the population. so, you know, the president's going to do poorly in places like new jersey, the new york suburbs, the philly suburbs. i don't think the president's going to do poorly in kind of the, you know, down in florida, in pennsylvania, in iowa, michigan. the president's not going to do poorly there. so the midterms are going to have an effect -- >> i don't know. >> well, that's your. >> we'll see. look, all of this is speculative. it's all about turnout. that's what's going to determine the midterms. it always does. >> well, but -- >> it's manifest intention of the reaction formation. i know those are all big words, but what we saw in '94 and 2010 is i know you're upset about what's in there right now. here's what i want to offer you that's better. now get out there and vote for me. that's the equation, and we won't know until the polls open
and close -- >> wait, chris. it's very true. but let's be clear that when you see russian interference like we saw today through facebook, russian interference against claire mccaskill and russian interference writ large in 2016, getting out the vote is going to be super important, yes. but there was a poll out today that showed that there are some republicans who think that interference by the russians to help the republicans is not such a bad thing. >> oh, come on, governor. >> come on. >> come on, governor. if you're going to blame the democrats for poor performance. you can't blame -- you have to accept some responsibility for not having a coherent message across your party. >> there's a whole array of things. we don't have to relitigate this. >> you can't blame the russians for the democrats failing. >> yes, i can blame the russians for interfering in this election. >> you can blame them for trying to interfere. >> they did interfere, and they
sent thousands and thousands of ads to social media in places like detroit, where they held up pictures of aziz ansari with a text saying, hey, avoid the lines. text your support here. if that's not a voter suppression ad, i don't know what is. oprah winfrey, photoshopped, holds up a sign -- let me just finish. when oprah winfrey holds up a sign that says, first-time voter, you vote on wednesday. those are voter suppression ads. those were issued hugely in 2016 in michigan. hillary clinton lost by 11,000 votes. the purpose of the russian intervention is to cause people to be not just divided but to cause them to stay home. >> right. and you know what? >> that's what happened. >> in the obama administration, the democratic barack obama administration should have shut those down. >> it would have been easier if mcconnell would have worked with them. >> so should the trump
administration. [ overlapping voices ] >> obama should have done more, but mcconnell shouldn't have blocked his efforts. and now trump, it's on him now to see what he does. he's the president. >> you're right. and today secretary of dhs, kirst kirstjen nielsen said we need to prepare for a category 5 event. >> what is he doing? >> so, governor -- >> he's been saying he doesn't believe there was a storm coming. he's been doing that for a long time, dave, and now they're starting to change their tune in the administration. we'll see what they do. >> can i just say -- >> i got to go. >> this is another case of classic incompetence. he had incompetence in puerto rico. he has incompetence -- >> incompetence in the obama administration -- >> and you're going to see another -- >> i hear you. dave has a point to. >> governor, incompetence of the obama administration? >> dave has a point. >> my head explodes when i see james clapper and all these former intelligence officials on this network complaining about russian interference when they were at the wheel when it all
happened. >> we're talking about 2018, dave. you cannot continue to look in the rearview mirror. >> if you're talking about the past election -- >> here's the thing. we got to end it here. >> but, chris, you can say dave urban has a point. >> i just did. i said it two points. you don't hear me because you're yapping. what i'm saying is this. it all is true. it started in 2016. the obama administration didn't do enough. why? they didn't know as much as they eventually would know. they were worried about outcomes, and mitch mcconnell was pushing back on them. they weren't going to get cooperation. it was going to be a partisan move. then the trump administration had this ball in their hands a long time. trump wanted to pretend it doesn't exist because he thinks it's bad for him. and now the election is upon us, and we'll see how safe they can make us. >> we need to protect americans' democracy. >> we'll see. they got to do a lot more than they've done. >> we can agree on that. >> let's end on that. thank you very much. >> thanks, chris. last minute, federal judge puts a block on print al
blueprints to make untraceable 3-d firearms. the founder of the group that wants you to be able to make your own weapons with a click of the mouse wants you to hear his case. we're going to test it next. they work togetherf doing important stuff. the hitch? like you, your cells get hungry. feed them... with centrum micronutrients. restoring your awesome, daily. centrum. feed your cells. new laptop with 24/7 tech support. yep, thanks guys. i think he might need some support. yes start them off right. with the school supplies they need at low prices all summer long. save $200 on this dell laptop at office depot officemax.
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poo poo the 3-d gun dispute. here's what happened today. a federal judge stepped in with a temporary injunction, okay? that's what it sounds like. this is not over. but for now, there will be no more blueprints to make 3-d printable weapons online but only for now. now, what's the white house position on this? they say the guns are already illegal, which is true. however, it is also true that the federal government settled a lawsuit that allowed these instructions to be posted online. alan gottlieb's second amendment foundation was part of that lawsuit. he joins us now. alan, welcome to "prime time," and thank you. the government role in this is very confusing. i say we focus on what is more simple for people to absorb. you tell me why is it good for
people to be able to download blueprints to make 3-d printable weapons? why is this a good thing? >> well, first of all, chris, this is a first amendment issue that just happens to deal with firearms that are protected by the second amendment. putting computer code on the internet is a language. a language is speech, and speech is protected by the first amendment. you know, the reason why we're so concerned about being able to do it we've got places like san francisco now where there are no gun stores now for people to be able to buy a gun or places like alameda county in california where zoning ordinances put gun stores out of the county, or places like seattle that put taxes on guns and ammunition. what this does for the future is allow people to ensure a way to be able to have a firearm. you know, if you're allowed to own a firearm in your own home, you should be able to make the firearm in your own home if you can't buy one locally because of crazy restrictions. >> okay. so two arguments.
one is if anybody right now -- and they should -- not while we're speaking of course but in the commercial, google availability of firearms in california, they will find nothing that is speaking to a shortage of weapons in california, okay? plenty of guns. plenty of guns per capita. plenty of gun crime in that state as a result. and you're leaving something out in your first amendment analysis, which is the right to have what you're dismissing as speech. not everybody has a right to a gun, right? certain people fall into categories where they can't get them. certainly people fall into categories where they should not get them. and what you're trying to do apparently is give everybody a chance, even if they're in those categories. is that good? >> no, chris, that's not what we're trying to do. in fact, all the laws that prohibit that stay on the books. we're not removing any of those whatsoever. >> you're not removing the law -- >> hold on. >> you're removing the mechanism for enforcement because you're
giving people an ability to cut out all the necessary middlemen so they can't be vetted. they just have to take the blueprints. they make their own weapon. that's the point. >> chris, a criminal who is going to break a law or commit mayhem is going to get a gun now anyway like they always do or there would be no gun crime right now. >> but they're probably not going to make a very expensive 3-d printable gun. they'll just get one off the street. >> a few years ago when cody wilson put these plans on the internet, there were 100,000 to 200,000 downloads of the plans to do it. lots of people have already made these guns. not one has been used in a crime. not one. so a lot of this is hysteria out there -- >> do we know that or we don't know that any have been caught committing a crime with a gun? >> well, we know it because they'd have the gun and be able to show it, and here's a 3-d printed gun. >> that's if they were caught. >> there's no crime report anywhere in the united states where anybody has misused one of these guns to begin with. >> but how would you know unless somebody were apprehended and
was proven to have used one of th them, right? >> well, you would know it by the ballistics or the bullet and everything else. >> it tells if it's a ghost gun? >> you mentioned, chris, in california, there are guns all over right now and this gun crime. there's also a lot of self-defense with firearms in california as well, which you don't want to talk about. but the truth of the matter is we both know in california every year the restrictions get tighter and tighter and tighter. there's less places to buy guns and less guns for availabilitity in california because gun -- we're looking to protect second amendment rights in the future by using first amendment rights to do so. >> it's a need that outweighs the national security interest, which is what we've seen different courts say now. you have to balance it. how it will come out, wul see on the merits. i'll tell you what bothered me about this, and it wasn't you. but when one of the designers of the code, there was a restriction. why is it illegal? well, you've got to be able to
detect these weapons when they go through a metal detector, and these have no metal. so they made a part that was metal in the weapon so it could be detected. however, that part is removable, and the weapon sometimes still functions. what the hell is that about? why would anybody want to make it so that you can remove what makes it detected and the weapon still works? why would you do that? >> well, first of all, if the weapon had a bullet in it, it would still be detected because the bullet would be detected. so again this is a little bit of hysteria. >> it's not hysteria. it's a question. what if you transport it without the bullets and you get the bullets somewhere else? >> well, if you're in a secure area where you're not supposed to be with a gun -- >> but why would you do that, alan? why would you stand behind somebody doing something as pernicious as that. >> i don't. >> i hear you on the first amendment. i get that. but that just seems so afoul of what we want to protect against, which is a deceptive practice. why stand behind -- >> well, this is not a deceptive
practice. if somebody breaks the law, they should be prosecuted for it. by the way -- >> you gave them the plans to do it is what i'm saying. go ahead. what's your last point? >> the tro is not against defense distributed, cody wilson. it was against the federal government. >> right. >> actually these plans can still be put on the internet because there is no tro against us doing it. >> well, what the judge said was for now he wants this held in abeyance so it should stay according to the reckoning of the washington state attorney, where it was before all of this. that's what they're hoping for right now, but in any case, it's certainly temporary. >> the plans have already been up and downloaded several thousands of times. >> that is true. like 2,500 times they've already been downloaded, and the question is how does this make us better and safer? we'll see how it plays out in the courts, and then you, sir, are welcome to come back and tell me why it's a good thing. >> thank you. >> be well. >> i'll do that. thank you, chris. >> appreciate it. all right. so what happens now to anyone who has already downloaded these plans for guns?
you get the flaw in the argument. well, we haven't seen any used in crimes. that's assumed that they were caught and apprehended as such. what are the legalities? what are the ramifications? cuomo's court in session, next. 7 tech support. yep, thanks guys. i think he might need some support. yes start them off right. with the school supplies they need at low prices all summer long. save $200 on this dell laptop at office depot officemax.
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all right. this 3-d gun thing, the fundamental merits of the case were not argued in court. so let's hash it out in cuomo's court. we have the perfect counselors. cnn legal and national security analyst asha rangappa and harvard law school professor emeritus, alan dershowitz, author of the case against impeaching trump. for the prosecution, rangappa, why is this wrong? >> well, this is wrong on so many levels. so first there is a law that prohibits the possession of undetectable firearms, so these plastic firearms. so as you noted, chris, in your earlier discussion, by definition, anyone who is downloading these instructions and actually makes these guns is going to be an illegal gun owner of said gun. the first amendment argument, i don't think really goes anywhere. there are public safety exceptions.
in 1997 after the timothy mcveigh bombing, senator feinstein passed an amendment making it illegal to post bomb-making instructions. so there are public safety exceptions to this. but i think really the practical effect is every day when you get on an airplane, you now have to worry about someone who may be sneaking in a plastic gun, and this is really just asking for potentially another 9/11. and i think that should be concerning to all of us. >> alan, the man who was just on argues, no, it's about speech. you should have the right to these ideas. these words are speech. these prints are speech. these designs are speech, and they should be protected. >> well, this is a terrible form of speech. these blueprints are awful, and i want to totally dissociate myself from what your previous guest earlier said about this is good speech. it's terrible speech. but the question is, is it terrible speech that's protected
by the first amendment? and the answer is clear. we don't know. we don't know. we've never had a case like this go to the supreme court. the earlier case called the progressive case, where they wanted to print instructions for how to make a hydrogen bomb, ended up being moot, and being moot for the reason that will probably make this case moot. by the time the case came to the court, the instructions were all over the place. anybody could easily find how to make a hydrogen bomb. >> how about the argument that they haven't seen it used in a crime? >> well, you know, that's not a good enough argument. look, the answer is that the court may very well say the instructions, the blueprints, are protected by the first amendment. but you should disable any machine from making this kind of weapon, not only prohibit the weapon, which we've already done, but also prohibit any 3-d machine from being capable of making the weapon. that would raise a second amendment question. >> yeah. >> but second amendment issues are easier than first amendment issues. so in the end, i think the
blueprints will be allowed to be shown, and that's a moot issue because they've already been shown. and anybody who wants to have access to this is going to be able to get it one way or another. >> and you have all the terrorist handbook stuff that's out there that falls into the same kind of categories. >> they're already out there. i don't want to compromise the first amendment. >> chris, can i add one thing here? >> yeah. >> you know, right now federal law protects gun manufacturers from tort liability, from being sued by people who get shot by the weapons they make. >> that's right. terrible law. >> these people are putting these instructions on, there are now reasonably foreseeable consequences to what they're doing. i think if any of these guns end up being used in a crime, they can expect to have their hands sued off of them and they should. >> that's an actually interesting point. we got to leave it there. i was doing some research on this, and there was some
jurisprudence early on in discussion of the first amendment that the first amendment's purpose isn't just to justify the most ugly and vile things that can be said. that that's not the standard always for enforcing the first amendment. it will be interesting to see if a judge takes that on at all. >> i think it is. >> but we'll see. thank you very much. don lemon is standing by with a preview of cnn tonight just minutes away. you know, this case really does strike at what could be so frustrating about the first we often ere on the side of allowing things into the public discourse, even if we hate them and what they're about. but this is an interesting twist, because this isn't about just what you're going to say to me. it's about what you allow me to do. >> uh-huh, and we do that because honestly, it protects what you and i do. i'm sure you've been watching with jim acosta what he's dealing with and what we deal with all the time. this is quite different.
i don't know how to categorize this one. i'm just going to sit back and watch. it's frightening. it needs to be protected. to the original first amendment about what we say and what we do, can we talk about the president a little bit and talk about lebron james? i missed you yesterday. >> i love what he's doing. i loved the interview. >> it was a great interview, and i expected -- well, a lot of people attacked him, but the question is why is the president attacking him? that's part of his strategy, we've been told by the folks at the trump administration, and sources that he's going to continue to use this whole athlete's thing and kneeling as a wedge issue up until the midterms. is it freedom of expression? does it go against the athletes? i don't know. but i think lebron james is doing a great thing. he speaks his mind. he knows what the first amendment is about and what it means to him. >> what i loved was what a
demonstration of putting your money where your mouth is. it's a common criticism of athletes and entertainers and boy, is he showing people that i'll put my money there and it will be great to see if people follow suit. good job, don. >> thank you. i got to tell you quick before you go, i like that he's not concerned that he's going to tick some people off. he just feels that this is the right thing for him to say and do and that's what he's doing. i'll see you in a little bit. >> all right, bud. immigration officials were grilled on the hill over family separations. we learned something i knew was going to come out. it's been denied and now it's known as a fact. i'm going to give it to you in the closing argument. it raises a fundamental question about who we are. fruits and veggies are essential to your health,
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right? wrong. today we learned the government apparently knew it was coming. knew full well it was heading down a reckless path of inhumanity. how do we know? a top hhs official. he has served three presidents. he told the senate judiciary committee about red flags raised. >> during the deliberative process over the previous year we raised a number of concerns in your program about any policy which would result in family separation due to concerns we had about the best interest of the child. >> there was plenty more he said that made it clear that they knew what would happen. he was told simply family separation wasn't an official policy. nope? true. the official policy was to deter. that's what ag sessions said as much on tv. and deter how?
fear, trauma, taking kids from parents. the message in never come back and let others know they will get the same. think about it. deported and your kids kept by the usa. we don't care if you are desperate for a better life or desperately fleeing a dangerous home or fleeing a community or government. you came illegally. that's all you are to us. that's the response from the administration. deny the act, deny the severity. the intention and the outcome. we just saw it today. from the head of enforcement and removal operations for i.c.e. listen to what they told the committee. >> the best way to describe them is to be more like a summer camp. these individuals have access to 24 /7 food and water. they have educational opportunities. they have recreational opportunities both structured as
well as unstructured. there's basketball courts and exercise classes and soccer fields we put in there. >> they got all those things in prison too, like a summer camp. giant windowless former big box store in texas. doesn't look like a summer camp i'd send my kid to, and i get these are different situations. think about it, diminishing those conditions, how do you justify it? easily if you don't care about the people who are in there. the u.s. attorneys are told to use the back handed legalese slur of alien as in illegal alien. i know it's in the law but it speaks to something else. why don't they want to say undocumented? not harsh enough. that wording was important enough for the justice department to send out an agency wide e-mail. so here's our argument. if the trump administration wants to make america the home of the highly educated and the
land of the economic engines, is that the only people you're going to welcome? then just say it. now, mr. president, don't try to sell that where we both come from in queens, new york, because it's filled with the people that you don't seem to want anymore. so take down the words on lady liberty. your adviser steven miller said the poem was added on later, that it isn't a statement of policy, and you know what? miller is right. those words are more than policy. they are the core of who we are, our kwiessence. we are the unclean, the unwanted, the poorly bred, those yearning to be free, and we will do whatever the hell we can to make it if we're given a chance. it is the exception among us who doesn't have that in their blood. remember who we are because who
Legislation approved by Washington State Senate mandates security upgrades for firearms dealers to reduce gun theft, critics argue it will kill small businesses.