minutes because that's they'll be focusing not only 17 victims in parkland, but the 13 victims in columbine that were killed in that 1999 shooting that really sparked this sort of awareness across the country. andrea. >> thank you, steve paterson. and the students at north high school in denver. we go to chicago, which is an hour earlier, rather an hour later, so they have already been out for an hour. ron mott, a city rocked almost every day by violence in various neighborhoods but all reacting to what happened in florida. ron? >> reporter: yeah, absolutely, andrea, good day to you. i'm with young man from leo high school here on the south side. you mention this is a daily problem here in chicago, gun violence. so these students who came out today, this rally wrapped up 10 minutes ago, those rally not just for those folks lost at parkland but all the people lost
daily basis in chicago to gun violence. cash a, senior, what brought you out today and what's your message? >> i wanted to promote peace within the african-american community. >> reporter: dealing with ram i had gun violence. fortunately we got new numbers as of tuesday down so far with number of homicides and shooting incidents in the city of chicago. so that's a step in the right direction. kevin. you a junior. what's your message today? you met with other schools? >> pretty much to promote peace and show all kids in chicago aren't bad and we don't go for violence. we just show them that peace can be in all our communities hand just up to us to keep it. >> reporter: and you can see here, show off the shirt here. this is a walkout for peace from
>> reporter: that's a great question. i'll pose to cash here. andrea mitchell is asking the fact that klum brian williams th -- columbine happened 20 years ago before you were born, did not seem to awaken people as parkland did. are you dispointsed it took all of those years and all those school shootings for this to reach this point where young people are walking out of schools asking for ta change? >> absolutely. it's a shame it had to get this far when it happened. but as you said before, the numbers are down, but still not enough. we have to continue with those numbers. >> reporter: what is it like going to school every day on south side of chicago where there is a lot of violence? >> leo provided us with a safe place every day. we don't have problems of violence. when we do, we come together as brothers, and pretty much it's like neighborhood keeps us safe. leo, everyone knows leo is
school for brotherhood, peace and pride. so as kids we don't suffer from problems of violence. >> reporter: so unique perspective, this is generation grown up with school shootings that have become, sadly, regular and normal in this country. but with this parkland shooting something seems to be different. andrea. >> thank you so much. thank to cash and the other student there with you in the south side of chicago. and as we also keep looking at columbine and the memorial there of the students walking, i'm joined by shawn henry former assistants phish and nbc national security analyst. shawn, this is a moment, we don't know if it's going to lead to action. we still see resistance in the white house and on chiapitol hi. but the kids are creating new generation debate. >> they certainly are, andrea. i'm inspired by a lot of what i see. i just came down fifth avenue
just about 30 minutes ago and i saw hundreds of students outside protesting outside trump tower. clearly, what we look at across the nation today at what i this i is a galvanizing moment to see entire generation of kids standing up and saying this can't happen anymore. this is really referendum against gun violence, not just school shootings. but in listening to some of those young men talking about chicago, since what we saw in parkland occur back on february 14th, there have been over 100 people shot in the city of chicago alone, many more across the country. and this is going to require a widespread reform. and a comprehensive plan. i think that to listen to these young people talking to legislators, talking to the leaders, the civic and community leaders, it really is about coming together in holistic way. and there are a number of this ings that need to be done. the law enforcement response is one component, but certainly a
lot more across the program, andrea. >> you know, shawn, it also occurs that the president initially was talking about raising the age limit, also responses now. now he has retreated after a dinner with nra and retreated to mental health, bromides if you will, not that it needs to be done, but those resisting change. and also talking about arming teachers. what is your view about arming teachers? >> well, i saw a piece on the news armed in a school accidental discharge. fortunately nobody was injured. shot went into the ceiling. but there needs to be a lot of thought put into that. i don't know that that's the answer. there is a lot that needs to be done to identify the threat and stop the threat. part of it is the access to guns by people who shouldn't have
them. there are lawful citizens who have a right to weapons. but a lot of people that have hands on weapons that shouldn't have access to them. that is going to require some legislation. that is absolutely require thorough vetting for any one who wants to have a weapon. i think it's going to require some more efforts from the health care community and educational community. and quite honestly, andrea, from a societal prpic tierspective. kids can play games and kill people online using virtual reality. i think it's going to require comprehensive review and change the culture and really get some action that is going to have a widespread impact. andrea. >> shawn henry, thank you so much. and as we watch in columbine, the students are releasing balloons one at a time. obviously, in memory of victims
of the gun violence. i want to bring in mariana in washington d.c. >> reporter: andrea, here in front of capitol hill. and you can see thousands of students out here listening to the speakers, poets, lawmakers. i just spoke to one law enforcement official who told me there are at least 3500 students here participating in this rally today. they want to see change. they held their 17-moinute momet of silence in the white house, turning their backs to the white house, and marched over here to pressure lawmakers in enacting the kind of change they want to see. here are a few girls from national cathedral school. tell me what have you heard from lawmakers here? what do you want to hear? >> i want to hear what we as students can do going further. not just coming to protest. not just going to the march for
our lives on the 24th. what we can really do going further. i this i thnk the energy is gre here. but what's next? >> i think another important thing we heard today is they are listening to us. and some people stud up there, senators, saying you are the future and being heard. i know change is coming but to know they are listening and this makes an impact is really important for us. >> reporter: and dree pa as we were listening to you, they started listening among themselves receives with other protesters what more they can do. and you are actually from a different school. >> i'm from walter johnson high school. >> reporter: and you chimed in and said this is what we can do. >> yeah. so two things i was talking about, first, not only do we need to influence our politicians, what we need to influence corporations that we support financially. for example -- i'm so sorry -- for example, through walmart and dick's sporting good, just
because of the past few weeks they no longer sell guns in their stores. based off of that if we have this many em showing support, astronomically higher showing support at the march, so many more corporations will follow. >> reporter: but following not only leg lislators, but also corporations. we have seen congress men, bernie sanders, they were excitesed excited to see. and all of these girls were excited to be on live with you, andrea. >> i love you. >> thank you. thanks to them. to the girls and walter johnson as well. i really love the fact that they are out there. and in parkland, florida,
joining me now. we have listening to students in front of the capital. they are talking about hearing from democrats. but republicans have not been speaking out for the most part. and the democrats are also today celebrating the likely election, a parent winner in the pennsylvania 18th district which as you know is a democrat who sports gun rights but is backgrounds checks. the lessons they feel candidates are more mainstream and red america, that could diminish support on capitol hill for tightening gun laws where relevan. >> reporter: well, andrea, i think some of the future for washington is standing right here. >> good point. >> reporter: they are all
freshman in the school. and we are standing in front of what has become a memorial if you will. you see statues of angels, 17 of them representing 17 people who were murdered here just a month ago. i asked this young man what his thoughts were about even going back into the school. and what did you say? >> i didn't feel safe. whenever i get out of school, i feel safer than i in school. >> reporter: and we were just talking about what does it mean beyond today in terms of legislative action? do you expects leg lay shuislatl make a change as far as gun safety? >> i do think there is. but the parties don't agree on stuff, as you can see, our nation is very divided at this moment. and i feel like we should all get together. because this isn't matter of parties, it's just people, and as people we should all come together during this because this could be anybody that gets killed. >> reporter: and, andrea, the students have been saying that
these were freshman. but you don't feel that that means you don't have a voice. is that correct? >> yes. >> reporter: you do have a voice? >> yes, we have a voice. >> reporter: is it a voice that your legislatures should be listening to? >> yes. >> reporter: does it matter if democrat or republican? >> flo. >> reporter: what do you want them to hear from you? >> we want them to hear that things need to change. things need to change. >> reporter: is that what you are saying as well? >> yeah. i do not feel safe in school at all. like, think about it, he had a bunch of other bullets that could have been a bunch of other lives taken. all these 17 people were so innocent. they didn't deserve this. none of us need to have, to like feel unsafe anywhere that we go. we are all kids. we go to school for just trying to get an education, just trying to live our normal lives that we
have. it's parkland. you would never have expected it would have been our school. >> reporter: but it was your school. >> exactly. >> reporter: now what are you saying? does it go beyond today? can you sustain this kind of energy into some legislative action? >> we won't stop fighting until something changes. legislatures need to do their job. they work for us and not doing what we want them to do. 97% of americans believe in universal background checks. it's in the error of margin. we are to this point universally agree we need to do something in our nation, but none of our legislatures are going to do something. so we'll start until they do something. >> reporter: in florida your legislatures have done something. they passed a gun reform, measure that said they changed the age requirement for when someone can get a gun to 21 instead of 18. how does this make you feel quickly? >> that's a start. that's a step in the right
direction. but i don't think that really is as effective. because the man in the poll shooting he was much older. i don't think it's as much of age that matters. i think it's who the person is, mentally, and like just the fact they are allowed to get a gun, like an assault rifle. and school is supposed to feel safe. >> reporter: every kid here, not just here, all they want to do is feel safe. and they are asking for the adults to make that possible. back to you, andrea. >> in parkland. thank you so much to all the young people joining you today. and joining me now to talk about the political fallout of this new movement, former pennsylvania governor, and democrat national committee chairman ed randle. and former republican national committee chair. welcome, both. as we continue to look at the pictures of this national out pouring. first to you, ed rendle, overnight, an election in the
pennsylvania 18th a parent election. winner is someone in favor of gun rights. first campaign i covered in pennsylvania. 1968 saw the democratic very powerful incumbent senator joe clark defeated because he was calling for gun laws. if the democrats can't field a candidate calling for some controls on guns in red parts of your state, of pennsylvania, how is this ever going to get passed? >> well, andrea, i think he is for universal background checks. step in the right direction. i disagree with him with assault rifles. i disagree with him on high capacity magazines. what in god's name does someone need a magazine that has 50 bullets in a clip? that's for killing in large numbers. and we have to make those against the law and enforce that law very strongly and carefully.
but what i remind my progress friends and what i remind our students is unless a party that is bound and determined to bring up gun legislation, significant gun legislation, unless we are in the majority, we can't get anything through the house or senate floor. we have to be in a position of control. so if conor lamb election makes it more likely we'll control the house, if that's the case, good step for gun rightsment because if we vote on in the congress, if imagine a bill that didn't get enough votes in the senate and probably would have failed in the house, if that bill is brought to the floor today, it passes. it passes in might judgment by significant margins. both the senate and the house. so that's a big step. that's not a small step. that's a big step. so we have to be in a position to control what gets voted on.
>> before i finish that thought and bring in michael steel as well, governor rendle, paul ryan is saying that the lessen to republicans, that it's a warning sign, sure, that the lesson is you have to field candidates that the democrats have had to field candidate who was really spouting republican policies here and that it was not a clear win for certainly not for the progress wing of the democrat party. account democrats pull together and bridge these divides coming up? what do you think real lessons are? >> i thought paul ryan has reputation of being smart guy. that's one of the stupidest things i've heard. they are going to say most important vote lamb will make is the vote to have a new speaker who will control the democrat agenda and bring it to the floor and a new majority leader in the
not who will do the same thing. doesn't matter. we need democrats to be in control of the agenda so these kids can get real relief so people who will stand up and cast a vote against assault weapons, weapons of war, vote of high capacity magazines. vote maybe to only limit sales of guns one a month, 12 a year, that's plenty. that's what we need. and conor lamb will deliver it, joe donnelly will deliver it, so i don't care if they are conservative democrats, this he are good that believe in lawful the message. not necessarily all the things but believe in the core message. >> thank you very much. and michael steel h republicans answer to conor lamb surprising victory. 20 point swing, 2016 election where that district went so favorably for donald trump. >> it was a massive wake up call. two very important takeaways
from my assessment having done this dance in 2010 and various other times. >> midterms are tricky. >> midterms are tricky, that's a very key point to make. and the thing about last night, the two lessons i think the republican neither meads to it be aware of. one is republican voted against the republican nominee for the office. that attributes to the 20 point swing you are talking about. what does that say when base republicans are voting against the president's choice? the president himself maybe his agenda, whatever their political narrative may be, that clearly is something that needs to get addressed. and i don't think they are in a position to address it very clearly between now and november because of all the variables, firing of secretary of states, dis-rupp shuns here and there, all of that muddles the conversation. the second thing was how the democrats stayed out of their own way. they let conor lamb run the
arrest he wanted to run. eave been saying 20 years in this business. particularly the republican party, let them run in the distribdi districts where you find them because they best reflect the people in that district. you cannot take someone from the northeast and run like from alabama and nor alabama from maryland. you saw that play out in pennsylvania last night in this district where conor lamb, yes, he was with republicans on certain issues. but he best reflected that district. and that's an important lessons for democrats and as wakeup call for republicans across the country now as long as democrats stay out of their own way. >> the president could not do more than going on saturday, giving one of his rip roaring rallies, peter alexander at the white house, many could argue he also did the aluminum and steel tariffs deliberately timed to
help him in that district. and none of that worked. >> reporter: that's right. i hear from those in the white house and close to the president the way they are framing this, the spin from the west wing as it were today, it would have been a wap op if the president hadn't been involved. that it was a five or six point loss for saccone before the president went out and made it matter of hundreds of votes. remember that the president won 17 months ago, won this district by 20 points. so you have to imagine if the president wasn't in office, that it certainly wouldn't have been what turned out to be a 20-point swing at the time. but that's the way they are viewing it. bottom line for the white house president is on losing streak when you consider what happened in alabama, doug jones defeating roy moore. obviously roy moore had a lot of challenges but president put his might behind that considering what happened in virginia with ralph northam, and now in pennsylvania. so the people close to the president i've been speaking to
the last 12 hours, it's a bad indication and omen, but we'll have to find good candidates that could be a blood bath coming up in november. >> and peter and michael, if you want to hang on for a moment. steve paterson is with a school principal at high school in north denver. let's listen in. steve? >> reporter: andrea i'm joined by principal scott wolf at the high school. we've just had 17 minutes. do you think this is a big awakening from the students here? talk about this moment. >> i've been here last five years. this year i see more sense of our students being alive and wanting to engage in what's happening right now compared to in the future. all put together by the students who wanted to do something and make sure we are part of something that's happening nationally. because our students are itching not just to talk about it, but actually see change.
because they recognize that current system is broken and we want to make sure everyone is safe. >> reporter: we saw some of the planning meetings of the student leaders before they mashrched o here. can you talk about their leadership skills? >> yeah, it was pretty cool. they came and said mr. wolf i want to do this i said great we want to make this the best possible. so make it clear what the outcomes are. then i had end to make sure they have a good understanding what are all the things we have to think about in terms of coordinating the event, making sure everybody is safe. but i try not to have a voice. i didn't get up there to say anything chblt i wanted that something that the students are like hey we lead this and made that happen this is where there is power. >> reporter: this is reality students grow up, talked to student in leadership classroom, middle school where student brought a gun to school, ten
miles south is columbine. can you talk about briefly what this community has gone through since then to progress to where we are today? >> yeah. its real for our kids. they have seen it whether in a school or they have this sense our society is not predictable and we need to make sure we are doing everything we can to make it safe. making sure kids understand mental health issues to making sure we have the right regulations in terms of weapons that can cause harm. >> reporter: thank you so much for joining us. and dr andrea, send it back to you. >> thank you to you all. you can see it, it's so exciting. >> it's exciting and see consistency of effort. they have not backed down from the negative impact who people say this is bigger than you. nra is bigger than you. they are showing they are bigger than anything right here on this country on this issue.
and a lot of elected officials in capitol hill and state legislatures, wake up, they are coming up. this he a they are coming for you. >> thank you to the whole team. we have a lot of stories coming up. next, brexit, what is next. stay with us. you are watching andrea mitchell on msnbc. last years' ad campaign
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i'll now return to private life as a private citizen. as a proud american, proud to serve my country. >> rex tillerson's exit. oust steer from the state department. unsermon usually fired on twitter. that now shifts the pfocus to nw cia director. now, global affairs analyst and former under secretary of state and former cia chief of staff. wendy, first to you, from your long experience at the state department, what happens next? it's a s let's assume that mike pompeo gets past this. brian hook from the state department attending from the united states. what is the signal that brian
hook can stand what donald trump will do on the next iran deal? and how will the iran deal decision effect what kim jong-un as far as how to handle his supposedly may meeting with president trump? >> all extraordinarily and right on questions. indeed, i think brian hook will go to vienna to meet with all of those who negotiated the comprehensive plan of action with no real authority. nobody new whether the europeans whether anything he negotiated would be upheld by the president of the united states. they will now be certain they won't be. so he's going as a place holder rather than a real negotiator. but more importantly as you point out the president has to make a decision about the iran deal in the middle of may. that may be about the time that he goes to north korea for very tough negotiations. and if he pulls out of the iran deal, which he seemed to indicate one of the main differences with rex tillerson was on iran, then we'll say that the u.s. is negotiating partner
has no credibility. you can't count on them to continue on agreement once they've made it. but knowing this president he may say to north korea i'm going to rip up this deal because i'll never negotiate a deal like this. it's going to be the best, the greatest ever, and we'll have two nuclear crisis on our plate at the same time. >> jeremy bash, as former chief of staff at cia, you've worked with gina haskell, post 9/11, with i then according to diane feinstein went well beyond the parameters described to congress. what happens to gina, well regarded by many people, including your former boss, pan , leon panetta. >> she's highly credible. right person to lead the agency
because she has the backing of the workforce and knows the issues and not a partisan political figure. i think it actually can be advantageous for the agency to have someone like a career officer in one of the two top jobs there. it's true, andrea, she did play a role in counter terrorism operations after 9/11, 16 years ago, and i know she will have to answer questions by diane feinstein. i'm fairly confident she will be able to answer the questions thoroughly and good leader for the agency. >> what about mike pompeo is he going to stand up to donald trump having seen exactly what happened to rex tillerson because he stood up at least occasionally to donald trump? >> well, look, andrea, you've been covering this agency for decades. you know better than i do, the most important relationship they
have is with the president. they basically have no power unless they are seen to represent the president at all times, to speak for him. and, you know, i don't think it really matters whether you fundamentally agree with the policy. you have to somehow make it plain to the president you've got to give him your best advice, but then you have to follow the president's lead and execute his strategy, and not sort of disagree with him in a way that the president finds disagreeable. you know, rex tillerson couldn't really find that balance. mike pompeo apparently has. they, as the president has said they are very much sym pat co. and i think there is a real hunger in the state department for mike pompeo's leadership. look, as others have said, the state department will follow the devil into hell as long as they use the deposiplomats though ar there. they aren't about creating policy. they'll give you their best
advice in years of experience. they are a tool that wants to be used. most of these people could be making more in the private sector. see themselves as patriots. they want to be involved in world affairs and in executing u.s. strategy. and an according to most sources, pompeo understood that. he had the building behind him in langley. so i this i that, you know, this past year with rex tillerson was a very difficult year because rex tillerson really put himself in opposition to the building, opposition to people who worked for him, even in his good-bye speech, the heart felt part of this speech when he was talking about the pentagon, not really talking about the state department. there was just a fundamental disconnect between rex tillerson and the people who work for him. and i think there is real hope that that's not going to be true for mike pompeo. >> john mccain, among others, is
asking for a really tough examination, though, of gina haskell. does that give you pause, jeremy? >> mccain has been absolutely clear that the communication techniques were immoral. and given his moral standing on the issue, i don't think anyone can question his point of view. i think the broader issue is we ended these in 2009 when obama came in. she has been serving with distinction. and i this i she will answer the questions. but at the end of the day the committee will realize she's the right leader for the agency. >> and wendy, you deal with students, are we going to recover the way the state department future generations don't want to take the foreign service exam? >> well, i'm wearing orange today in solidarity. the reason is they represent
what democracy is about. where we have presidents and institutions around the world trying to undermine democracy. these are kids that show democracy matters and voices count. i think we can recover. i think it was director pompeo said in his remarks that he looked forward to working with the foreign service and that they had served well and fine with him. i think if he walks in and he reaffirms them, he takes off the hex on the backs of all of those who served under secretary clinton ankerry, i want your expertise, we'll have fewer people retiring, we'll have their service and institutional memory and expertise at the service of america's national security. and that's what we need. >> wendy sherman, thank you all so much. and another big issue front and center, british prime minister accusing russia attempting to kill a russian spy and his daughter with a nerve agent.
>> onto the, they will dispel 23 russian diplomats identified as undeclared in till against officers. they have just one week to leave. this will be the single biggest expulsion over 30 years and reflect the fact that the russian state has acted against our country. >> may said that the u.n. security council will now hold an emergency center. later today to talk about the nerve agent attack and the u.k. will push for robust international response. nbc kerr joins me from london. what next will they do russian has not given any information as demanded in response to accusations? >> well, you no he, it'sknow, i question, because it suggests britain hasn't been able to do that much. expelling 23 russian diplomats
tit for tat where they will expel some. it is a significant act in the sense that what britt tain effectually does it cuts off their own ability to get information on russia. because they know president putin will expand. there are other things prime minister announce, ministers of royal family will not attend soccer world cup later 0en in russia. but that under scores the challenges that the u.k. faces. and, andrea, i think really putting back from all of this, the real question facing the west, and facing the u.s., is what to do. because britain of course is america's closest ally. britain has now seen an an attempted assassination on its own soil. they have to respond. the question is whether the
white house will follow the u.k. in that tough action. >> in fact, white house response so far has been what you might call weak tea, other than secretary tillerson's comments on his way back from africa. and we saw where that helped land him. so what do you think, i guess we should all be reporting how nikki haley or the white house response today at the security council? >> yeah, that's right. we should be, i think. and i think, also, another way to look at this, because one of the questions that everyone is asking themselves, this was brazen, some british ministers have described it as u.k. prime minister describing russia treating u.k. with disdain. looks as if this attempted assassination was so brazen they must have known it would be discovered. so people are asking themselves the question, well, why would russia do that? and perhaps there is something of an answer in that all of that
politics. because if the u.k.'s relationship with russia is going into a deep freeze the way even more frozen than if you like than it already was, then that puts a distance between the u.s. position on russia and british position on russia in terms of europe, you know, andrea, you know all too well europe is divided particularly with brexit, for example. parts of the southern europe, the public there quite pro russia. so you can see the way an event like this, and president putin perhaps, he's a smart guy would have known this, you can see event like this is causing more friction between western allies and maybe that's what russia wants. >> kerr, just to switch gears for a moment. because you did an extraordinary tribute to steven hawking overnight. you've been very busy correspondent overnight. i wanted to play one part of
that from the big bang theory, their guest cami owe with stephen hawking. >> professor hawking, it's an honor and a privilege to meet you, sir. >> i know. >> i mean, i learned so much from your report. if you can talk for a moment about steven hawking. diagnosed with als at 21 kwh he was at cambridge, i believe, and long life, and incredible contributions to the world. >> yeah, i love that you play that clip, because it brings out something that people may not know, he had a tremendous sense of humor. but so much in his life. you mention the crip blink illness that led to him in wheelchair. he was told at 21 he would not
have long to live. he explored time and universe from wheelchair and became someone that inspired people not just with science, but with the way that he viewed life, andrea. he would say look up at the stars, not down at your shoes. and i think that's a message in these difficult times that we can all learn something from. >> kerr simonds always wonderful to talk to you. i always learn something. >> you bet. >> who is the next cabinet member to hear you're fired from president trump. stay here. you'll have those next with andrea mitchell. see for yourself why chevrolet is the most awarded and fastest growing brand, the last four years overall. switch into a new chevy now. current qualified competitive owners and lessees can get this 2018 chevy equinox
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get more from your spring break getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com and for a real inside scoop, "the washington post"'s white house reporter ashley parker now confirming larry kudlow will replace gary cohn. also join us, jonathan capehart. from the reagan white house administration treasury official, since then on a number of broadcasts including most importantly of course our sister network cnbc. ashley, a very different
presence than gary cohn, of course. >> yeah, that's exactly right. my colleagues robert costa just confirmed that. larry kudlow is a free trader but someone who the president has a good relationship with, was often in the president's ear, talking on the phone with him throughout this administration, and someone who the president saw on tv a lot and liked. this is a president, we're seeing, who is remaking his west wing and his white house in his own image and getting rid of people that didn't quite work, although that wasn't quite the case with gary cohn departing. he's bringing in people he feels comfortable with and larry kudlow is one of them. >> he was in favor of the carve-outs, so perhaps you'll see more carve-outs from the
tariffs, including the european union. >> it's a good question. what we've seen on every issue is two things are sort of both true. one is that the president is often quite impressionable or can be persuaded by the last person he talked to or someone he's seen frequently or someone he's chatted with at night. on a few core issues, like trade and immigration, the president's gut has never wavered for decades. no matter how much he's maneu r maneuvered or staved off from making a decision, he often aligns to where his gut is. >> jonathan, one of the things that's impressive that jeh johnson said on "morning joe," when you have this turmoil at the contact level, you can't get things done. it takes so long to get
confirmed, get staffed up, change the immediate office. you can't do any initiatives. >> no. and one of the big complaints about washington is that nothing gets done at the capitol, there's so much gridlock between the house and the senate, the congress can't do any of the big things because they can't get their acts together. you take that and you add to that this incredible dysfunction at the white house, inside the west wing with this constant churning. things have come to a complete stand stil standstill. for the president to now have to get a senate confirmed secretary of state, a senate confirmed head of the cia and whoever he also he might kick to the curb in order to get this cabinet in his own imagining, in his own shaping, that's going to take a lot of time. the big danger in all of this is that the president is getting rid of people and replacing people who will not tell him no, who will not have the guts, the fortitude, to stand there and say, mr. president, you cannot
do this, you should not do this, you should rethink this particular action. here are the consequences. it doesn't sound like there's going to be anyone who will be able to to do that. the big problem is we have a president of the united states who if someone were to say those things to him he either will not hear it or he'll discount it. >> ashley parker, one of the side effects of this, maybe one of the most important effects, as jonathan was just alluding to, you have people coming in who may not have the backbone to say no to him, but also may not have the experience or the knowledge base, because he's turning to people who don't have the whole experience that either diplomatically or in economics, that others have had in the past. >> yeah, that's exactly right. and one of the things with this president in talking to people, both in the white house, about the people he's now bringing in and the people he's pushing out,
it's often less about disagreeing on policy or someone with a lot of experience having a policy disagreement, but it's really about personality. so when you talk about secretary of state or former secretary of state rex tillerson, for instance, people say, yes, they disagreed on some policies, and the president was frustrated that he believed tillerson was, quote unquote, too establishment in his thinking. but the real issue was that it was just a bad personality match, when we're hearing rumors of h.r. mcmaster leaving the white house, people say, yes, they weren't always aligned on issues but the real issue is they just didn't have good chemistry, they didn't click. when you have a president bringing in people not based on ideology and not based on expertise or decades of experience, but sort of who he has a good chemistry with, who he likes, who he enjoys watching on tv, who he thinks is out of central casting, you don't often get or you don't always get, at least, maybe some of the benefits that come from someone who has been working in this field for decades. >> and ashley, joining us now, miraculously, is ali velshi, my
colleague, my partner, host of course of the 11:00, the 3:00, and a lot of other o'clocks. your take on larry kudlow to replace gary cohn as we've been reporting. >> i think ashley is right, larry kudlow is a great performer. there are two distinct problems with the larry kudlow equation. if gary cohn left because of tariffs, larry kudlow is as big a free trader as they come. he'll have to work that out with the president. larry kudlow has been out there pushing this idea that the economy can grow at 4 or 5 or 6% and that these tax cuts help you get there. a lot of people know that's fantastical thinking. and larry kudlow is now going to be in a position where he can encourage the president to continue telling people that that's going to happen when in fact our economy is more mature and it's more stable and you
can't just do this. so what they've done is they've sold tax cuts on the rich to the american public on the expectation that it will increase economic growth, it won't increase the deficit, and somehow everybody's going to be happier. apparently last night in pennsylvania, not everybody bought that message. and that is going to be a problem, because you don't have somebody telling the president the truth if it's larry kudlow, because larry kudlow has been selling that message for over a year now, two years. >> those are the kinds of economic projections we read in the completely made-up chinese or russian gdps. >> right. >> it just seems to me that that creates an enormous problem, a burden on the one economic policymaker who doesn't have to salute, which is jay powell. >> correct. and that's the problem, because the fed can't fix everything. we've gotten into a habit of thinking, particularly after the financial crisis, that the fed came to the rescue, they were being the adults in the room and could fix that. but they can't make up for bad economic policy and bad fiscal policy. that's part of the problem, if
you continue to say that this is going to happen, for some period of time voters may believe it, they'll say a little more in their checks. but this concept that we'll grow ourselves out of this debt, grow ourselves out of these big, some would say unnecessary tax cuts, it's problematic. the whole conversation that you've been happening about whether mike pompeo will stand up to the president and tell him things he doesn't want to hear, it's now the same issue, is larry kudlow going to tell the president things he doesn't want to hear? i don't know about that. >> he's filling a job that technically was supposed to be the equivalent of the nsc. it's supposed to be the job of bringing together disparate viewpoints and presenting them to the president, the way bob rubin and bill clinton envisioned it in 1993. >> that's correct. larry kudlow has his own views on things and he'll be pleased to let you know what they are. >> disparate viewpoints are not what this president wants.
clinton and don, jr. among others. and there is more. a federal judge is forcing a long-time aide to trump advisor roger stone to turnover documents and testify before a grand jury hearing, hearing evidence in the mueller investigation. stone sought damaging information about hillary clinton from wikileaks, the website which published thousands of hacked democratic e-mails, e-mails stolen by russian hackerses, hackers the trump justice department identified as agents of the russian government. there are also new developments in the trial of the president's former campaign manager, paul manafort's bookkeeper testifying that her boss was effectively broke and lying to banks about his precarious financial situation after losing his biggest client, which is the pro-russian former ukrainian president. and that was right about the same time that manafort started working for the trump campaign. the bookkeeper also testified that she knew nothing of foreign accounts controlled by manafort. that poses a problem for manafort since yesterday car
dealers and contractors said they were paid almost exclusively from foreign accounts linked to cyprus. now, in the middle of all of this, the president still says he wants to sit down for an interview with mueller and clear everything up while his lawyers warn that would be a very bad idea. former trump campaign manager corey lewandowski telling our very orrin erin burnett a short time ago he hasn't spoken with trump but would advise against a sit-down with mueller. well, that is a curious claim since cnn reported that lewandowski joined the president aboard air force one just last night after his florida rally. also on that flight, trump 2020 campaign manager brad par scand parscal who said trump should fire mueller to bring the probe to an end. lots to discuss. former u.s. attorney harry litman is here and cnn legal analyst joey jackson up on the late shift tonight. joining us.
very sloppy, nondetail oriented, very hard to prepare kind of witness, very erratic, could blurt things out. but there's a deeper subtext here. i think that they're aware of, which is he's got real criminal vulnerability. this is not a question of what's the meaning of this. this is a question of a lot of details that would tend to show that he's guilty of obstruction of justice. mueller knows everything. trump doesn't know what mueller knows. and there would be all kinds of questions, even as he shaves his list of questions by 50% as he's offered to do, that would just be absolute hazards for trump because mueller knows the answer, having talked with other people. so, i think that's the real problem here and i think this has been theatrical from the start. they haven't really intended to sit down. the real problem is he's got
criminal exposure. and if he sits down with him and he lies, exposure for perjury, if he tells the truth exposure for the underlying crime. that's the biggest problem. >> so, joey, respond to that. he said he thinks it's theatrics. does trump want to sit down with mueller or is it to look that way in public? >> i believe it's very simple, don. good to see you. the reality to me is it's a farce. number one, i do not believe that he wants to sit down with mueller no matter what other people say. there's two schools of thought. one is that he is and his lawyers are holding him back but he really wants to speak to them. i think that's political cover. i see it far more simply than harry does. i think he doesn't want to sit down with him or his lawyers don't because, look, the president is truth challenged. we know that. the fact is that whether you love trump or whether you disdain him, i think everyone can collectively agree that his relationship with the truth, there is a major disconnect. if there was a report, one
report i saw said he told 2100 lies since office, another one said 3,000, another one said 10 a day. if you sit down with mueller, if they don't have obstruction -- we don't know whether they do. he's tweeting, his state of mind is all over the place. he could say he fired comey. if there is no obstruction and there is no collusion, conspiracy, you want to argue collusion, it's conspiracy. the fact is you can get him on perjury. so why take the chance of going sitting with mueller no matter how smooth you think you are, no matter what you think you can say, when you're going to get caught in a lie because you will lie because that's what this president does. period. >> so, harry, so far mueller hasn't moved on this demand that he wants trump to sit down in person. this negotiation has been going on since january that we know about. at what point does mueller tire of this and just say, i'm going to subpoena the president? >> exactly. i mean, it's been since january
and maybe before. i'm a little surprised. i would have thought he would have said, you know, forget it. it's been silly that team trump has been acting as if it's got the leverage here and maybe they'll decide to sit down. as you say, the law is likely to be with mueller and he can just go to court. now it gets a little tricky if he really is inclined to wrap things up before the midterms, probably even a quick process in the courts would extend past november. but, look, i agree with joey he's an inventor, liar. the big problem here i think really goes to the substantive exposure for obstruction and the fact that mueller would have so much information that the president just doesn't have. at this point, though, there is also the real possibility that he would file a report with the
at this investigation, don, is looking and eyeing whether they can connect the dots. who is they? mueller's team. and in order to connect dots as it relates to russian collusion and it relates to the trump administration trying to get information and working with the russians alongside of them, collectively agreeing, defining collusion, you need to have some people who might be knowledge as to that. and so, of course, if you get them and other members, people from the russian community who could talk to the meeting, who could talk to the connection between the campaign and members of the russian government, you can establish that nexus and connection. and so that's why they're central to mueller's investigation. >> so, harry, the aguilaravs attorney appeared a short while ago. listen to this. >> they never spoke to the president before or after, or to suggest the president was informed the meeting was going to happen. from their perspective, they learned about it in the scope of
cooperate. they don't need to talk to him at all and there had been some indication that amina was actually soured on trump. but that certainly seemed like an attempt to aid the president and it would suggest that if they do talk, he'll be telling a story that would be exculpatory and maybe of don junior as well, his buddy. these are colorful characters, but mueller, in any event, wants to hear from them. he wants to know the truth. >> yeah. thank you, harry. harry is here all the time. joey not so much. i'm glad wolf blitzer shared you, let you come on the show tonight. so -- >> nice to be here. >> thank you. thank you, come back. thank you all. when we come back, the african-american pastor who met with president trump at the white house and is now facing a backlash. i'm going to talk to him next. my digestive system used to make me feel sluggish. but those days are over. now, i take metamucil every day. it naturally traps and removes
A recap of the day's news.
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attended the president's meeting with inner city clergy to discuss prison reform. >> in a time of moral relativism and secular humanism, it is refreshing to know that those of us who have committed ourselves to fighting for people who cannot fight for themselves have a seat at the table to fight for them. i appreciate you allowing us to sit at the table to allow the conversation. my prayer is you will continue to have wisdom and insight to lead this nation. truly all of us are created equal so thank you for giving us an equal opportunity to fight for this nation and what it means to be an american. >> thank you. >> so joining me now is pastor john gray of the relentless church in greenville, south carolina. you received some backlash. welcome. good evening. >> thank you, good evening. >> it's good to have you. you received some backlash. other people who were there were a bit more complimentary of the president and got maybe in a bit
your credibility, your influence among the faith-based community. >> uh-huh. >> and there you are. i have had pastors come on who were on the president's advisory board and they quit because they thought it was a photo op in one of the first meet ings and they didn't think he was going to do -- this administration was interested in helping anyone except for getting a photo op. >> yeah. >> what do you think? did you expect the cameras to be there? >> no. when i first heard about this and was invited, i actually said i don't want to take pictures. i will go, i will listen, i will give my input, but i don't want to be photographed. and that was because i understood that certain parts of our community, the faith-based community and the african-american community and rightfully so, have immeasurable pain when you're dealing with an administration that at times has drawn moral equivalency to the unite the right rally, the people who organized it and those who opposed it. that's --
>> so then why go there and lend your credibility to him? because there are other ways that you can participate that may be strategically smarter and more influential than being seen on the same page with someone who many people -- most people of color in this country, black folks, think that his policies, his speech, his language, behavior, all of that are detrimental to african americans. you can help out in other ways rather than sitting next to him and him having taken a picture. >> let me ask you this. you just invited me to your table. we don't know each other. we don't agree on everything. i'm sure if we had the conversation. but we're at this table for dialogue. the purpose of that conversation was to talk about prison reform. it was the express understanding that we were coming to see if churches could partner with the government to help lower recidivism rates and systemic poverty, cyclical poverty based on people who are trying to
community that i've come from? why would i risk it? would it be for a photo op? >> that's what i ask you, why? >> i went because i believe i was sent. i believe that my faith -- >> did you have to go to the white house? could you have done a conference call? could you have been on, you know, via television or camera or could you have teleconference? or could you have maybe there could have been a place other than the white house where you can discuss this? did you -- the thing is that sitting there, all of these african americans sitting there, it is being seen as the president of the united states, this administration has proposed policies that are so detrimental to african americans that they are using you as a prop and using you -- hang on. they are using you as a prop and it is a photo op. >> the photo op doesn't work. it backfires. the moment i'm on that platform, whatever they were hoping to accomplish with their intended audience back fires because they don't have credibility in that
market in the first place with those people. for me, the answer is very simple. i went through every detail, why would i go. what could i possibly gain, which is nothing. >> would you do it again? >> would i go back? if there were different circumstances, if i had assurances that we were going to meet about the intended conversation, yeah, i would go back. not because i agree, because this is what's important. alignment or even speaking does not mean agreement. dialogue does not mean agreement. sitting at the table does not mean agreement. and that's important. i don't agree with many of the policies, but it doesn't stop me from having conversation. >> okay, i know we've gone on long. sorry, producers. this is what you put on your instagram page. you said, lord, do you want me in that room? my first mind was no. the pain of so many is too real. the hurt, the isolation, the sense of disenfranchisement. the real hate that has bubbled to the surface of the national
discourse. do you think the president is responsible for hate in the nation's discourse now? >> i believe that our president has fostered a culture and a climate that has allowed for what was there and has been there for years to bubble up. it has empowered people in a horrific way, absolutely. i don't think there is any question about that. and if you're looking for someone who is a fan of the administration or a boy for the administration, that's not me. i am a man of god. my faith guides me. i very well may lose credibility with whoever, but the people that know my heart know this. i am determined to honor what i believe is the calling on my life. there is nothing for me to gain from being there. but i am committed to fighting for people who cannot fight for themselves. and if i began to cower to people who don't agree -- because a lot of people don't agree with me don't share my faith. daniel spoke to nebuchednezzar.
>> now you're preaching. >> people speak to leaders who don't agree or lineup with that. for me it wasn't about being seen. clearly that did nothing for me. i believe -- >> let me say this to you, and i spoke to someone who i really respect today and talking about faith. look, i am a person of faith. he said there is a reason that people would teach you about the bible, would let you congregate on the plantation, but would not allow you to read. do you understand the meaning of that? >> absolutely. >> it means they believe that religion keeps people in chains and that fighting back and saying, i'm not going to deal with this, turning the other cheek because they don't want you to leave the plantation. what do you say to that? >> he ri was never on the plantation. >> people keep overlooking so much, overlooking, you know, when it comes to women,
overlooking what it says about gays, overlooking what it says about muslims, overlooking what it says -- just about every thing. >> absolutely. >> there is so much. you just keep overlooking. people of the faith-based community, evangelicals -- affairs, adultery, all of those things, what? at what cost, at what price? >> i think that's the key. i wasn't on the presidential evangelical advisory board. i think what you said are valid. i can only speak for me. with everything that i could have lost and could still lose, i believe that my voice was necessary because i was there for people who could not fight for themselves. that was my intention and my heart. >> thank you. we've gone really long. >> sorry. >> all i'm saying is turn the other cheek, fine. but if you keep turning you other cheek as all you do is get bruised and swollen. >> thank you. >> i really appreciate you joining us. when we come back, while the president is distracting and deflecting about hoaxes and talk about the media his administration is changing
crucial policies. how they are chipping away at owe kbam a care a obamacare and how it could affect you. that's next. take prilosec otc and take control of heartburn. so you don't have to stash antacids here... here... or, here. kick your antacid habit with prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn.
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president and his lawyers attack the russia investigation, while his press secretary slams the press, while the lies just keep piling on, this week the administration quietly introduced what could be called obamacare. a new -- trumpcare, excuse me. trumpcare. a new federal rule clears the way for short-term health insurance plans that let consumers buy coverage for just under a year at a time. they are expected to be a lot cheaper than what's currently offered. their premium is around half of the average cost of plans sold under obamacare. so what's the catch here? well, you get what you pay for. and these plans, they don't pay for much. so here we go. one analysis shows that only 57% of the plans cover mental health care. 38% cover substance abuse treatment. and none of them, zero percent, cover maternity care. you probably won't be able to buy them if you have a preexisting condition. and if you buy this insurance and then need to use it, watch
out. there are limits on how much your plan will pay. some plans don't cover immunizations or even injuries from playing organized sports. there is even a plan in illinois that doesn't cover hospital stays that begin on weekends. not surprisingly, doctors and advocates don't approve. according to the los angeles times, a whopping 98% of groups that weighed in on the proposal to make short-term health plans more available were either critical or outright opposed. but the administration and a lot of insurers are eager to sell these plans. the president tonight boasting about chipping away at obamacare. >> you know how many people have come up to me and said, thank you very much for getting rid of the individual mandate? sounds so nice. isn't it a beautiful term? the individual mandate is wonderful. see, i think presidential now. the individual mandate. the individual mandate is a disaster. it sounds good, like the affordable care act, was not
affordable. >> so now the administrationis out with trumpcare. will americans like what is in the fine print? so let's discuss now. cnn's senior economics analyst stephen moore and jason candor, democratic candidate for mayor of kansas city. good evening, gentlemen. thank you so much. jason, what is the likelihood people will choose these plans based on cost and pay the price later when they get sick or need the coverage? >> that's the whole idea here, don. it's basically a scam. it's a piece of paper. it's not insurance coverage. folks will say, well, this, i can pay for it, it costs a lot less. they walk around with a piece of paper that actually doesn't give them access to a doctor. when i was in the army we had this saying that we would use, which is the checking the box is one of the worst forms of lying. what it means is that if you pretend to solve a problem, in some ways that can be worse than doing nothing at all because if you pretended to solve the problem, then people walk around thinking the problem is solved, but it's still there. that's exactly what the trump administration is trying to do
here. they want to pretend they did something about the fact that, for instance, here in kansas city we have huge pressure on emergency services because, you know, we didn't expand medicaid in the state so a lot of folks don't have health care. they end up using the emergency room. that's a real problem. but they're pretending to solve it. in a lot of ways that check in the box, that's more dangerous than if they were to do nothing. >> let's bring in steven now. democrats called this junk insurance. that's what they say, that's a quote, junk insurance among the shortcomings, they don't cover preexisting conditions. doesn't that leave out an enormous pool of people who won't be able to get coverage? >> well, look, what you and jason have been talking about actually would apply to obamacare. i mean, jason, every promise that was made under obamacare has turned out to have been a lie. >> preexisting conditions? >> well, i'm talking about the fact that everyone would be covered. there are still 25 to 30 million people who don't have health insurance. by the way, that's the group of people that were trying to get insurance for. but why are so many people
looking at these cheaper plans? it's very simple, because the cost of obamacare plans has doubled over the last five years. so it is ironic that this lie is called the affordable care act because for so many millions of americans, health care is not more affordable. i mean, you guys remember when barack obama was campaigning on obamacare, remember he said it was going to save the average family $2,500 a year and now we have a situation where for the average family the cost of health care has almost doubled in most states. so what we're looking at is trying to provide -- look, we all want to provide more coverage for people and it seems like what you all are saying is unless this is a gold plated health plan, it would be better for somebody to not have health insurance at all. >> the stats, steven, i'm giving facts. jason is here as the democratic person. maybe the facts don't lineup the way you want them. that doesn't mean i'm espousing or supporting anything. those are the facts. but also -- hold on, hold on. hold on, hold on, steven.
you spout out all of these statistics about what's costing more, but also there are people out there and insurers, right, and big medical companies who are refusing to join this plan because they want to keep their profits and so getting rid of the individual mandate and all of those things, that is causing the markets to collapse or obamacare to -- >> don -- >> that's a big part of it. >> the obamacare system was in a spiral two years before donald trump became president. >> that's not true. >> yes, it was. >> i want to talk about the -- i don't want -- >> it's not affordable for people that's why people want lower cost plans because they can't afford obamacare. >> i don't want to get off track -- hold on, hold on. >> okay, go ahead. >> we get side tracked with these things. i want to talk about the merits of this program. by the way, all the facts show
that what you said is completely false. obamacare was in a death spiral. that is a republican talking point. that is absolutely not true. >> the cost doubled, don, that is absolutely true. >> go on, chris. let's talk about this policy. >> don, let's talk about this health care. if steven is going to sit there and say a bunch of stuff that's not true and pretend the problems that exist with obamacare, that a whole bunch of them weren't caused by stuff republicans did over the last few years on purpose, if we're going to do that i would prefer that he and the other people defending this trumpcare plan just be honest about what they want. what they want, don, is to go back to 2009. they want to go back to when insurance companies were in charge. they want to go back to when preexisting conditions were a reason not to give you health insurance. they want to go back to when you thought you were covered for something and you weren't and you got sick and got dropped. i would just prefer they actually make an argument for what they're for rather than pretending that they're for something else, rather than checking the box and just
pretending all the time. if we're going to have a debate, why don't they stand up and say what they're for? because it's unpopular. >> i want to give you -- i'll give you the last word. go ahead, steven. >> unfortunately health insurance is so expensive right now, people can't afford the plans that were supposed to be more affordable under obamacare. what we are trying to offer people is plans that they can afford. now, they're not going to cover for everything that obamacare requires coverage for, but if you can't -- my point is wouldn't a plan that provides you with some basic coverage be better than no health insurance at all? and i guess you guys say it would be better if people don't have health insurance at all. >> that has to be it. wasn't that the whole idea of obamacare -- >> people can't afford it. that's the whole point. >> you're not telling the viewer -- you're just telling a part of it that fits your narrative. you're not telling people why it's not affordable. that's what you're not telling. >> he thinks it's fine if people can't get health insurance because they used to be sick. >> i'm not saving $2,500 a year
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today, they are awfully similar. >> i want to bring in peter bon effort and sarah. he was comparing the democratic platform to the nazi platform. can i read you real quick the nazi platform? the national socialist german workers' party which was commonly referred to as the nazi party was built on dictator adolf hitler's belief that arian germans were superior to nonarian, particularly jewish people. ideology was built on the premise jewish people were responsible for the problems facing germany following world war i. and that belief eventually spiralled into the government-run genocide against the jews known as the holocaust. so, democratic party platform, is that what it is? >> what you said captures it, right? the essence of nazism is dee humanization. the dee humanization of vulnerable groups. which political party in this era is doing more dee humanization of vulnerable
groups? is it the democrats comparing mexican immigrants as insects who are infesting the country? is it they who are basically involved in a large scale campaign making people hate and associate latinos with criminals? no, it's the republican party. if you're going to make this analogy, the dee humanization is coming from the trump's organization. >> this man is from a father who could not condemn the marching in charlottesville. i want you to watch it again. >> jews will not replace us. jews will not replace us. >> so trump went on the blame both sides, we know the whole thing after that rally. how is any supporter of this president defend this propaganda? >> yeah, it's not what i would choose to attack the democrat platform. lord knows there's enough to attack the democrats on without resorting to call people a nazi. of course, if i had a nickel for every time i heard someone on the american left like peter just did call republicans donald trump or even the president that i worked for, george w. bush a
nazi, i guess i'd be a rich man. we ought to all stop calling each other nazis, because none of us are nazis. we're all americans -- >> scott, this is different because it's the president's son. >> i don't like it. i don't like it. i don't want anybody to call people nazi. >> but you're comparing the average citizen -- it's all awful, but you're comparing an average citizen who doesn't have a voice, doesn't have a platform, is not going to be talked about in the news to the president's son, the sitting president's son comparing a democratic platform to nazism. that's different. that's false equivalence there. i hate to tell you that. >> well, of course it is. >> i don't know what you want me to say. i disagree with the rhetoric. i disagreed with it just now when peter who does have a platform says republicans are more nazi like than democrats. i don't like any of this and i don't think most people want either party to be calling the other ones nazis. >> tara, go ahead. >> well, look.
i'm no fan of the democratic platform. i haven't been for years, that's why i'm a conservative republican. however, for the president's son to throw out that the democratic platform is similar to nazi germany is absurd. it goes to show you that he doesn't really understand history. first of all, it's awful, it's like projection because if you read through the 25-point plan of the nazi party back then and the republic and all those things, there's a whole lot in there that unfortunately is awfully reminiscent to some of the things that donald trump has actually advocated for. i mean, the whole idea of the tribalism and the nationalism and what steve bannon and those guys were perpetuating during the election, that's a lot closer to the nazi platform than what democrats are asking for today. and not only that. the whole idea of the press being called the enemy of the people. my en, it was hitler who called the press the lugan press, the
lying press. that is a freaking nazi propaganda rhetoric that the president of the united states is using from the bully pulpit every day. so the president should -- >> are you comparing people to nazis? >> i'm using the example based off of what the president's own son and what the president has done. if you really want to get into let's compare things to nazi germany, there's a whole hell of a lot more going on with what's coming out of trump's mouth and out of his son's mouth and some of his supporters like what we just saw that anything the democrats are proposing and i'm no fan of what the democratic platform is. >> scott and peter will respond on the other side of the break. this is not a bed.
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record on this or can no one contradict a family member of this president? >> i mean, i think people are free to speak their mind and i certainly am going to sit here and tell you that i don't like it when we resort to the tactics that the left resorts to, which is this stupid name calling that is not rooted in the historical record. i don't like it when we do what they do. but, you know, everyone is free to speak their mind and correct it if they want. i don't think it's going to put a stop to it unfortunately. we're having a panel tonight. i say i don't think anybody should do it and two people here call the republicans nazis. >> i didn't call -- >> it is completely broken. >> i didn't call republicans nazis. >> let me tell you -- >> bothful you did. >> let me explain, i'll explain. i believe there is a spectrum of dee humanization and percent conditional use based he on de-humanization. donald trump has moved us in america further in that direction by his continual equation of mexican immigrants
with criminals and rapists and even insects and we see the bitter fruit of that in this brutal inhumane child separation policy. that is moving america in the direction that we don't want to go. not to where nazis are, but closer than we were before donald trump. that's what i believe. >> and i used the example of the propaganda that nazis used and the word donald trump is using that mirror exactly what the nazis use in their disinformation campaigns in the '30s and '40s. so, i mean, if we're going to go there, i used historical precedent. i mean, hitler did use the term lugen press which means lying press. that's exactly what trump is doing now, calling the press the enemy of the people is reminiscent of nazi propaganda. that's just historical fact. >> let me ask you a question here. how do you think -- let's just say that sasha and malia were grown and working for the obamas as president and said and called
republicans nazis, or maybe a better example would be chelsea clinton doing the same thing as she was working for her mother if her mother was the president of the united states. or when her father was president. what do you think would happen on the right, scott? >> people would go crazy about it and that's why it's wrong. i mean, i don't know how -- >> no one is going crazy about it. >> it is wrong for one party -- >> no one is going crazy about it. no one has come out and said anything. you are a contributor here on cnn. >> you know why no one is going crazy about it? because our civil discourse has gotten so far off the rails that everybody jannes about this stuf -- yawns about this stuff. that's the problem with american political discourse. it is so off the rails, calling each other nazis is so out of bounds. >> the president of the united states sets the tone. it wasn't off the rail like this in other presidencies. it wasn't. it starts from the top. >> sure it was. do you know how many times i had to endure people calling george
w. bush a nazi? >> it was not coming from the president of the united states. have you watched the trump rally lately? >> george w. bush said nothing like what donald trump says. in fact, the number of -- >> he was still called a nazi. yet they still called -- >> who called him a nazi? but scott, scott, let's give you the point. let's say people did call george w. bush a nazi. >> they did, that's true. >> who did it? was it a sitting president's son or daughter or family member? >> no. >> it was some of the most wealthy financiers of the democratic party. george soros did it, keith ellison did it. compared 9/11 to the reich -- >> i think you're missing the point. we're talking about how presidents talk and presidents behave. donald trump is totally unlike barack obama or george w. bush in that regard. >> all right. i have to go. thanks for watching. our coverage continues. control of heartburn. prilosee so you don't have to stash antacids here...
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robert mueller is not. see you in a bit. here onset for another day, dan goldman, an msnbc legal analyst along with our pal nbc news reporter carol lee. it is less hot than it has been all week. you picked a good day to be here. dan, let me start with you, if you look at what each side wants, they are both looking for leverage. and the sticking point, one of them seems to be this idea much an in person interview. what is the framing behind that? the trump team wants questions on collusion only and special counsel wants to hear about it all. >> i think rudy giuliani is trying to figure out a way to drum up some leverage because ordinarily the witness of the defendant or target or subject does not have the leverage, the prosecutor does. and but because bob mueller is not talking and rudy giuliani is, he's able -- he has the whole public domain to make all of his arguments, even though as
a prosecutor, none of them make sense. start with the perjury trap. this is not a perjury trap -- >> is it a perjury trap if you tell the truth. >> the perjury trap looks at it from the perspective of the prosecutor and the truth looks at it from the perspective of the witness. the reason it's not a trap in any way shape or form, they have legitimate questions to ask about an ongoing investigation. that's -- that makes it not a trap. whether he tells the truth or not is up to him. >> there are two strategies that the president's legal team seem to be putting forward here. you have the legal strategy which you've laid out but then carol, there's kind of the public relations strategy which we've talked about before as it relates to the president's legal team and rudy giuliani seems to be making implicit threats. here's what he had to say in the fox interview as well about that. >> the real story here is not that this case isn't going to fizzle. it's going to blow up on them. the real question is what we talked about before, there's a lot more to what they did that
nobody knows about yet. and mueller is going to have a lot to answer for. >> seems kind of easy to send warning shots to somebody you know isn't going to fire back. >> absolutely. this is a pr o fenffensivoffens been negotiating on this interview for eight months now. it's -- it's an exceptionally long time and in that time, you've seen the president's legal team while it's undergone different changes and various phases, they just launch an increasingly aggressive assault on the investigation and so in many ways, you know, you can see how there's a whole school of thought that the president was never going to do an interview, even if he wants to, that was never going to happen and there's been a lot of stalling and that's part of the tactic here. you can see even if he -- if he does decide ultimately that there is no interview, that he's mounted this whole defense about why that is and he's made it so normally in a political sphere,
that would be seen as you're afraid to answer questions or this and that. he's casted as the investigation as such a witch hunt and in that sense he can argue that why would he sit in front of an -- for an investigation that's a witch hunt and out to get him. >> dan, i want to quickly touch on the idea that rudy giuliani says there's a department of justice rule that says you can't be doing this to close to an election. there's no written regulation on this. no written policy. there's generalized guidance it seems that prosecutors do not indict political candidates or use o vert investigative methods in the weeks before an election. fact check that. no written rule but it is seeming to be an unwritten guidance. everybody thinks about james comey when we talk about this. >> james comey was a little bit of a different story because that investigation became so public prior to that period before the election. but putting james comey aside, there's sort of 60 day rule that the department of justice generally abides by. it's not written, not hard and fast. but where rudy giuliani gets it
completely wrong is that it does not mean you need to end an investigation 60 days before the election. it just means that you calm things down a little bit. you let the political process play out and then you can ramp it back up after the election. >> both of you stand by for a second. while we're talking about special counsel as it relates to a potential sitdown with the president, the special counsel is doing work right now this morning inside a courtroom in alexandria, virginia. the trial of course of trump -- trump's former campaign chair paul manafort picked back up for the day in the last few minutes. prosecutors are in the final stages of their case, going out with a bit of a bang. fireworks from the testimony of rick gates and then these clashes with the judge. nbc's julian anzly has been inside the courtroom for us and stepped outside to bring us live reporting. julia, fill us in on what's happening this morning and high drama as the government starts to bring this case to a close. >> that's right. we expect the prosecution to finish calling witnesses by the end of the day tomorrow. right now on the stand just as i
stepped out was melinda james, a low level person working at citizens bank in brooklyn where she would prepare mortgage applications, we're assuming one of those mortgage applications is paul man that thfort's and we'll hear more from her. there are forensic accountants and irs agents and understood the way he inflated income or lowered to dodge taxes or money la launderi laundering. they've moved past rick gates, the drama i've seen so far coming from the judge. in fact today we heard the first apology from judge ellis to the prosecution because yesterday he berated them for allowing a witness to stay in the courtroom during the entire testimony of the other witnesses and instead he said i'm sorry i was wrong, i did tell you that was allowed. jury, please don't consider that when you're deliberating this case. >> that's really interesting.
thank you much. i'll let you hop back inside to keep reporting this out. let me bring in dan and carol again and as well as from washington, pbs news hour, yamish, julia brings up something interesting, talking about the judge. he has become a kind of focal point in this moving forward with the decisions that he's made that seem to have gone against the prosecution's case. walk through how you see the jury viewing that or perceiving that? >> well, first of all, it's really important to note that judges have so much weight over the jury. while the jury will make their decision, the way the judge talks about the case and way he approaches it, really impacts how people -- how people view this case. i think that when you look at the fact that the judge is base he canally saying and has said at the beginning of this he doesn't want this to be a witch hunt for robert mueller and doesn't want this to be something to try to squeeze paul manafort, it's already kind of created this feeling as though he might kind of have his thumb on the scale.
i was in the courtroom yesterday as well. essentially, if he's deciding that the jury can't see all of these photographs of this extravagant life that paul manafort was livering and can't really put -- they have to deal with documents, that's a lot harder than saying look at this big life this person was living. it's problematic and he was breaking the law. just yesterday when i was in the courtroom, he was interrupting the prosecution a lot. he was basically trying to do the defense's job for it in some ways but also impacting the defense and interrupting them. it was clear that he was more concerned about the prosecution's line of questioning and making sure they weren't leading the witness and i was there for rick gates. it was mainly whether or not they were leading rick gates to make a lot of statements that the judge didn't think was fair. >> let me pull up a graphic we had on the screen listing some of the decisions the judge has made, for example not letting jurors see some pictures of paul manafort's clothing, giving an extra week to review questions and politico writes taken on
their own the individual rebukes are relatively minor but some experts say cumulatively they could plant doubt in the mind of jurors about the strength of the prosecution's case. on the other side of it you had a former prosecutor on rachael maddow who said this judge is a perfectionist, if and when this goes to an appeals court or appeals judge, everything is set to go. >> all judges are a little bit worried about protecting the record. and generally speaking, judges are harder on the prosecution than on the defense because they want to make sure that the defendant gets a full and fair trial and it allowed a vigorous defense. so what you really have to focus on is what the judge is saying outside the presence of the jury versus what the judge is saying in front of the jury. it's one thing for this judge to try to move the prosecution along to not want to show a lot of these photos which by the way will be shown in the closing statement, admitted into evidence and will go in front of the jury. it's a very different thing when the judge is interrupting and
interjecting during cross-examination of the government's main cooperating witness whose credibility is so crucial to this case and when he is asking a lot of these questions and sort of weighing in on his credibility. that is completely out of line and totally inappropriate. >> i'm going to ask all of you to hang out longer. you'll be here the rest of the show that's a good thing because there's a lot to talk about this morning, including the last line of defense from one of the president's key allies in congress. he's been caught on tape explaining why the president's party needs to hold on to power. it's a message you might here echoed by other republicans this fall. we're going to bring you those recordings as you look live at downtown summerville new jersey, population just over 12,000 people. we don't have 12,000 on the plaza but we're close. the first person to survive alzheimer's disease is out there. and the alzheimer's association is going to make it happen
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the part of the remarks you're about to hear focuses on midterms and why republicans need to hold onto the house. >> not the only one, which is really the danger, that's why thank you for saying that by the way. we have to keep all of these -- we have to keep the majority. if we do not keep the majority, all of this goes away. >> a spokesman for the campaign had no comment on the recording and nunes's office did not return calls for comment. matt miller, msnbc justice and security analyst and former doj spokes person back in washington and here onset. jeff mason joining the party with along with carol lee. matt, let me start with you, you listened to these recordings and you've watched this and heard them. what did you learn new from them? >> actually not much. this is really just devin nunes
putting into words what his deeds have shown. he's made it pretty clear he sees his job as protecting the president at all costs and not getting to the bottom of what happened, whether with regards to russian interference and with regards to whether any members of donald trump's campaign participated or assisted in the russian interference. that's been obvious for a year and a half now. it's remarkable to come out and admit it privately, not publicly in a setting where you often hear politicians slip up and say what they really mean. and i think what it shows is this argument you see democrats making across the country which is the republican party in no way is willing to be a check on donald trump. no way willing to investigate corruption or malfeasance or impropriety in his administration and devin nunexts s not just unwilling to investigate it but actually coming out and saying ehe is th one -- the republican majority is the last ability to stop donald trump from being investigated in this case by the
special counsel. >> so jeff, do you see this as a message that other republicans will adopt or could adopt or are adopting the idea that democrats cannot take back the house because we've got to protect the president? >> i think it depends on what the race is. there's different -- there's different republicans running in different -- >> all politics is local. >> it depends, yes, if it's going to help a republican this their district, yes, you would take that on. similarly if it helps a democrat in their district, they could take on the opposite or flip argument, if we don't take oerve over the house -- taking over the house is the only way we can be a check on the president and possibly move towards impeachment proceedings. >> i would pick up on that word. that's one of the bottom line concerns he's addressing there. there are republicans who absolutely feel that way, if the -- if the democrats take over the house, they are going to try to impeach the president. and if you get that word out there, even more than the democrats are talking about it, it will gin up the base and have
their worry, look our guy is at risk. >> there's also this that devin nunes said as it relates to rod rosenstein and for example impeachment. listen. >> the senate would have to drop everything they are doing and start with impeachment on rosenstein. then you take the risk of not getting kavanaugh confirmed. so it's a -- it's not a matter -- it's a matter of timing. >> so not a new idea, matt, right, but what does it say to you about the possibility if or when kavanaugh gets confirmed, the supreme court pick, that then this -- this idea of the impeachment train for rod rosenstein gets back on track? >> i think you can take what he said one of two ways. one you can take it literally that there is a plan in the republican party, especially in the house to try to impeach rod rosenstein after the elections, i'm not sure that's the case. i know nunes wants to do it and
mark meadows and others have pushed for. paul ryan is the speaker to the end of the year has been resistant to that and other republicans resistant to it. the other way to interpret it, devin nunes should talk about the impeachment of rosenstein because it is part of their kind of scheme to undermine the special counsel's investigation, that even if they don't have any intention to ever impeach rosenstein for the reasons he outlined in those remarks, it's still -- they find it politically advantageous, as long as they can attack that investigation, they can undermine it with the republican base. that's the interpretation i take away as the more likely one. >> jeff, how about what you could call cathy mcmorris rogers factser, she is high up in house gop leadership as nunes is making these comments that elaborate what he's indicated he wants to do. >> for sure. she's a part of leadership and on the tape part we don't hear her weighing in or disagreeing
with anything he's saying. it is interesting, leadership in particular, paul ryan had a much different view of this and of the russia investigation than representative nunes. >> it's politics. she was in a tough primary. we don't know -- didn't say on the tape. but also as you said in the beginning, had an opportunity to comment on this and chose not to. >> right. >> carol and jeff, thanks for coming on out. i know your pool if the president has an event later this afternoon. you'll be shouting questions. >> i'll be shouting questions. >> make us prouds, my friend. i'll see you soon again, i'm sure. the nunes audio is not the only secret recording on our radar today. omarosa now has a tell-all book and possibly something else behind her sleeve. secret tapes of the president. plus a congressman indicted for outsider trading out on bail and promising to fight back. how democrats are vowing to make an example of him already. you're looking at the beautiful day in summerville, new jersey,
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we are back now with a look at your morning's headlines and learning disturbing new details today about the compound in new mexico where officials say some kids were being trained with assau rifrls to attack other kids at school. that comes from one of the children now in foster care. in all 11 kids were rescued after being found starving. the five adults living on the compound have been arrested and charged with multiple counts of child abuse. one suspect is the son of a brooklyn imam that may have a possible connection to the 1993 world trade center bombing. there's a preliminary hearing scheduled to begin tomorrow. nks there's a stunning new report out of puerto rico just this morning. nearly a year after hurricane maria destroyed that island, the government is now revising the death toll and it is way up. officially they originally said 64 people had been killed. the number is actually 1400 lives lost. more than 20 times what they
said initially. that is a story we're staying on top of and have been on since maria hit. live pictures right now over at the pentagon, where defense james mattis is waiting for arrival of mike pence because the trump administration is launching details on its space force today. in the next hour vp will lay out the plan at the pentagon making it the first new branch of the military potentially. more than 70 years, that's a story i'll be reporting on tonight for nbc nightly news. within just the last hour, democrats are coming out swinging against what they call a culture of corruption within the republican party. it comes after congressman chris collins was arrested on those federal charges of insider trading. we shared that breaking news yesterday. today collins is defiant, prosecutors say the congressman schemed with his son so his family could avoid big losses on an investment in an australian pharmaceutical company. collins served on the board and still a top shareholder. this morning collins who remember was the first member of congress to support donald trump
for president is out on bail. he has pleaded not guilty and he has ses not stepping aside. >> the charges that have been levied against me are meritless and i will mount a vigorous defense in court to clear my name. i look forward to being fully vindicated and exonerated ending any and all questions relating to my affiliation with -- >> let's go to nbc news capitol hill correspondent kasie hunt. what's been the strategy? >> reporter: well, they've been trying to be out front casting this as a culture of corruption under the trump administration, the president as you know well campaigned on draining the swamp and their argument is well actually, it's really just the opposite on a conference call this morning, congresswoman sherry gustos a former jornlist herself mimicked an editorial meeting at any one of the news
organizations, should we lead with wilbur ross or scott pruitt, which person set of problems should we focus on first to try to underscore this is something we've seen that runs ram pant through the administration, the list of trump associates and trump in this case chris collins, this is an unrelated to anything to do with the trump campaign but he was of course the president's first supporter in congress. so that list is remarkably long. that's not to say democrats haven't had their own challenges with their own members facing criminal charges or questions about corruption including senator bob menendez. but clearly this is something we're seeing at a relatively high scale here in the trump administration, hallie. >> and nbc's kasie hunt. thank you. let me back in dan goldman and carol lee and dann, let me start with you. congressman collins says he's innocent and believes he'll have the charges against him cleared. does he have a case based on
what you learned? >> every defendant says they are innocent until they are not. >> not the ones who confess, but okay. >> very few of those and people who know about the investigation prior to this which chris collins did. keep that in mind he has to say i'm innocent. he has a line of defense here that is plausible, which is to say that you don't know what i said in the conversation with my son. it's my son, i talk to him all the time and you don't know that i was actually relaying any information specifically that i was not allowed to relay or whether i just said now might be a good time to sell the stock, even if he admits he was talking about the stock. from that point the rest of the case goes from his son out. so collins will try to really narrow it down to what happened when he was at the white house and saying that what you don't have enough proof to show that what i did was illegal. >> heard ka sixt e explain how democrats are really seizing on this. let's talk about this
politically. this district in western new york, solid red seat. donald trump won 60% back in 2016. the cook political report moved the seat from solid to likely republican right after that indictment was unsealed. do you think it is really going to make a difference when it comes to that particular house seat? zb zbls. >> well, i think em battle republicans are following the lead of the president, that is to stick it out. when you think of the all of the things president trump had to weather in order to win the presidential -- republican nomination and then to become president, he really just flew in the face of all of the scandals around him. the access hollywood tape and talks about porn stars and all sorts of issues. he stuck through it. you think of scott pruitt. he had stories about where he was living and whether or not he was trying to get his wife to have a chic fill-a. it's because the president set the really -- the mirror from that. they are all taking a look at the president saying if he can survive so can i. i think he's looking at his
district and saying i can survive this much like my president. >> can we just pull up the list we made of people in the house who have either been arrested or who have been facing conviction while in office? if you look at this, it's democrats and republicans, carol. when you look at this list, what do you see? >> bipartisanship. >> bipartisanshibipartisanship. this is something that's happening both parties. you see the democrats and they want to take collins and make this a broad brush with the republican party and they have the added benefit -- >> numberswise, may be more republicans, right. >> having significant troubles and number of members of the president's cabinet but when you look at that graphic, you can see -- you can see the risk in democrats taking on something that perhaps republicans can then turn and say look at your party has problems too. then it becomes something -- >> here in new jersey -- in both of their houses. >> carol and dan, thank you for that conversation. we have much more to come up in the show, including for example
democrats on the move. chipping away at gop strong holds or trying to. as they push to retake the house. steve kornacki is at the big board to talk through districts where they are eyeballing a takeover and how many seats they have to flip. we're in of course summerville, new jersey, a county where 54% picked hillary clinton in 2016. here's one of our local folks' take on partisan politics this morning. listen. >> somerset is a -- i'm kind of like with my restaurant, i'm in switzerland, i don't know if i can get too particular. ♪
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nobody else even comes close. now starting at $7.99. gillette. the best a man can get. we are live back here in summerville, new jersey, taking a look at our plaza, you can call it here downtown with one of the top five most fun crowds we've ever had at the show thanks to all of them for turning out in new jersey today. we want to talk about another state, ohio, votes in tuesday's special election out there in the 12 ng congressional district are still being counted right now. over the last 24 hours, that tight margin has actually gotten even tighten. danny o'connor and troy balderson is separated by only .8%, less than a percentage point. after 588 previously uncounted votes were found in franklin county. here's the thing, provisional ballots absentee balanlots are still being counted. if it gets down to .5%, it
triggers an automatic recount. we're watching that really closely today. the bigger midterm landscape and fight for control of the house, steve kornacki is at the big board at 30 rock with more. 89 days until election day. what should we look at? >> 89 days. i'll give you another number, that key number is 23. that's the bottom line if you're a democrat, you are dreaming of your party picking up 23 house seats to get the house this fall. if you're a republican you are hoping against all hope that democrats are unable to do that. so we actually partnered with the folks at left field productions to sort of set the stage, take a closer look at the battle for the house, the mid-term battle and about that number, 23. >> 23. >> 23 is the number we have to be thinking about. >> because this is the number of seats democrats need to pick up if they are going to win back
the house in november. they can definitely get there but it's by no means certain they are going to be able to. >> so the question is, is there a blue wave coming? >> so for democrats to get those seats, there are a lot of places they can look around the country. but there's one type of district that really stands out. >> it's the 25 districts across the usa that republicans hold that were also won by hillary clinton in 2016. >> what we're saying is that the democrats need 23 seats. >> and they do have 25 prime targets and there are more seats outside of this they could pick off too but the biggest problem, even if all of the ingredients are there for democrats in this age of polarization, their just may not be as many targets as there used to be. >> 25 obvious targets for democrats and dozens of others that they are working furiously to try to find. >> there's a wild card factor. >> in 2016, all of t$2016, all spell doom for done amd trump
but he won anyway. in 2018 could we be in for another surprise? that's a little taste of what we put together there. they need to take 23 if that's what democrats need to take. we mentioned it in there. the obvious targets, the 25 districts now held by republicans that hillary clinton won in 2016. you can go beyond that though, how about the ones that are held by republicans now but where trump barely won? you can add a few more targets there potentially and potentially when you start talking about seats that were single digits, trump won them but 7 or 8 or 9 points. ohio 12, trump won that by 11. it's a nail biter now. here's all of the seats trump won by ten or less. you can see that potentially expands the battlefield here but bottom line right now, democrats need 23 if they somehow pick off the ohio 12 it will be 22. for now the key number, 23 sfl steve car knackky, that was especially cool. you can find more on the nbc
leflt field youtube channel. youtube.com/nbcleftfield. it's really cool work. coming up after the break, the u.s. is slapping russia with a new wave of sanctions over the poisoning of a former russian spy and his daughter but why did it take so long for those to drop? we're looking at that with a live report from overseas. lots more to come as we wrap up our week on the road with the president. you're looking at summerville where the flag is flying high. amazing crowd on the plaza, hometown of lee van chief. fun facts all morning. stick around. ? ones that make it fast and easy to analyze and take action? how about some of the lowest options fees? are you raising your hand? good then it's time for power e*trade the platform, price and service that gives you the edge you need. alright one quick game of rock, paper, scissors. 1, 2, 3, go. e*trade.
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aleve. all day strong. so president trump has argued again and again that he's been tough on russia, really tough, the toughest. his critics disagree but the president may have new ammunition for his argument this morning. that is because the u.s. is retaliating for russia's role in poisoning a former spy and his daughter in britain last march. the new punishment will probably cut off hundreds of millions of dollars of exports of sensitive national security equipment to russia, according to a senior state department official. a second more painful wave of sanctions could stop russia's national airline from entering the u.s. if the kremlin does not
demonstrate it won't use chemical weapons again and refuses on-site inspections by the u.n. russia is not exactly expected to ak quee he is to those conditions. let's turn to the chief global correspondent bill neely, live from overseas. we have new information how the kremlin is responding this morning, right? >> reporter: yeah, good morning, hallie. russia basically is furious and the new sanctions have already had an effect in moscow. the ruble falling sharply this morning, and many of russia's leading companies. russia is acting furious. president putin's spokesman saying this morning in our view these and earlier restrictions, that is sanctions are absolutely unlawful and don't confirm to international law. russia insisting again it had nothing to do with the poisoning of the xrskripals in england, tweeting no proof, no presumption of innocence, just highly likelies, only one rule,
blame everything on russia. but the big question are when does this punishment of russia end? and at what point does president trump intervene? after all remember helsinki, hallie. >> oh, i vividly remember that you and i in the room as the president stood side by side with vladimir putin and did not condemn him in strong terms for russia's election interference. you mentioned russia is still denying had had anything to do with the skripal poisoning. secretary of state mike pompeo signed off on the official determination that says yes, the kremlin violated international law. is that what sort of automatically triggered the sanctions to kick in? >> yes, it's interesting, president trump had little or nothing to do with this because under a 1991 u.s. law, once it's been determined that a country has used chemical weapons, the u.s. must impose sanctions. so it wasn't the president's
choice. the real kicker though is what he does next or what happens next because the u.s. is warning that more draconian sanctions will follow if russia fails to show fails to show it's no longer using chemical weapons. they deny using them anyway so we can assume they will fail to meet these new tests. in three months there could be more sanctions. you mentioned for example banning russian aircraft from landing in the u.s. these will be a deeply, deeply political act. >> nbc's bill neely live from london. thanks. remember what james comey said last summer testifying in front of congress? >> i hope there are tapes. >> turns out, there might be tapes. they just might not be what you expect. we'll talk about how omarosa has
recordings. >> we're talking about all of it and more. here's what one person had to say. >> kind of sneaky, but obviously doesn't surprise me because i'm sure along the way people have been taped and not known about it. so doesn't really shock me. i was just finishing a ride. i felt this awful pain in my chest. i had a pe blood clot in my lung. i was scared. i had a dvt blood clot. having one really puts you in danger of having another. my doctor and i chose xarelto®. xarelto®. to help keep me protected. xarelto® is a latest-generation blood thinner that's... proven to treat and reduce the risk of dvt or pe blood clots from happening again. in clinical studies, almost 98% of patients on xarelto® did not experience another dvt or pe. xarelto® works differently. warfarin interferes with at least 6 of your body's natural blood-clotting factors. xarelto® is selective, targeting just one critical factor.
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every single day, like what is he going to tweet next? should we be worried? >> don't say that. oh. because we are worried but i need you to say no, it's going to be okay. >> that was reality star turned white house aide turned private citizen ohm romarosomarosa. daily beast reports she secretly recorded conversations with the president, and is using them now to promote her new tell-all book called "unhinged" set to be released this month. who saw this coming? here's what president trump tweeted. honest omarosa. she won't back stab. she'll come in from the front. daily mail has obtained an excerpt from the book in which she writes the following. his mental decline could not be
denied. many didn't notice it as keenly as i did because i knew him way back when. they thought trump p was being trump off-the-cuff but i knew something wasn't right. how credible is she? >> i mean it's a hard question to answer, because omarosa obviously has an agenda here which is to make sure she sells as many books as possible. >> make money. >> to make money and really mon tise as much as she can that short time in the white house. that being said, she was in the residence, talking to the president constantly. conkelly w john kelly was frustrated with the relationship. this is one who he brought into the white house personally because he wanted to have other around him. she does have an insider track and knows what the president's thinking was like. >> carol, i'm old enough to remember what happened back in february when the white house
spopdsed to omarosa's comments that you saw there. >> omarosa was fired three times on the apprentice. this is the fourth time we let her go. she had limited contact with the president while here. she has no contact now. >> so the daily beast writes the mere existence of the recordings they say represents a dramatic betrayal of trust by a trump confidant. how close was she really? >> well, they were obviously close enough. she's someone who has been around donald trump for year, and frank welcome i, you covered the white house, i've covered it for years. it's a small building anyone who's in there has access, and is around for -- to hear various things. the idea that somebody, a staff or senior staffer would go into the meeting and use a smart phone to --
>> this is not sean spicer's book which is a loyal showing to the president. >> the exact opposite. response earlier this year is like wash, rinse, repeat. they always say when someone is doing something they don't like, that they had limited contact. weren't really that close. so it's -- kind of seeing this again. >> if you have not heard enough, you will hear much more this weekend, she's joining chuck todd, sunday on meet the press. before we go. let's wrap up quick. carol, what our sources are telling us. what are your sources saying? >> the president has been positive about the outlook for the midterm. i've spoken with a republican outside the white house that said privately he seems a little less confident and that he's gets internal briefings but also calling around to people outside to say what's up with this race.
how does it look. all of that suggests that as we've seen in the past, the president's inclined to rely on his own instincts perhaps and more than the experts, but also things aren't as rosy as his twitter feed might lead you to believe. >> what are your sources telling you? >> mine are telling me democrats want to attack supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh. on his stance on voter id laws. >> thank you both for being on our show. unfortunately our last one from somerville, nursew jersey. i want to thank you for watching us. a huge thank you to the amazing crew. all of them, putting this together behind the scenes. dave, paul, and thank you to the crowd. amazing group. and some amazing stories back there. including for example, molly and
Rachel Maddow takes a look at the day's top political news stories.
comments are anything to go by. the "new york times" reported that the serving white house counsel don mcgahn has done more than 30 hours of voluntary interviews with the special counsel robert mueller and his team of prosecutors. shortly there after we got new reporting from the "times" about the president's personal lawyer being sqozed, for look of a better term. the "wall street journal" is first on the story as they have bone the criminal intrigue surrounding president trump's long time lawyer michael cohen from the very beginning. but following the initial reporting a couple weeks ago that the potential charges michael cohen might be facing, now "the new york times" as of yesterday and the associated press as of today, who have both match that had story. so the "wall street journal" and the ap and "the new york times," all now reporting that michael cohen's legal vulnerability may be at least in part rehated to
interesting, right? lawyers getting lawyers is one thing. lawyers becoming corroborating witnesses is an even bigger thing. i think there are steps we should take to avoid being spun or misled on both those stories. so we'll get to some of that ahead tonight. i feel like, when you see a story about mcgahn or cohen coming down the pike, unless it has publicly verifiable information, tread lightly. don't go too fast around this corner. this may be someone trying to trip you up. there have been a bunch of new developments today and into this evening including one that reflights this guy. remember this guy? he is the one person who has gone to prison already. actually served his custodial sentence in the russia scandal. his name is alex van der zwan.
he laid to investigators about his role in one of paul manafort's foreign lobbying gigs. it has always been possible there was a big biographical coincidence about him. it is totally possible it's a coincidence. but one of the more intriguing details about him, who has served his time in prison. we think he's left the country since serving his anaheim priti prison. it has been fascinating to know that his father-in-law is a russian oligarch close to vladimir putin who turns up in the christopher steel dossier. he is married to the daughter of this man, herman khan, one of three wealthy russians who control a banking empire called alpha bank. it has popped up in a couple of different ways.
defamation lawsuit against christopher steel and the intelligence firm. the dossier didn't really say anything all that damning about alpha bank. it described herman khan. he described them as having a close relationship with putin. they said significant favors continue to be done in both directions. still giving -- still giving informal advice to putin. especially on the u.s. so that's what's in the steel dossier. they could each other favors. further, they maybe funneled money to putin in his st. petersburg days. this is not the world's most salacious stuff.
but it has tina life of its own. republicans in congress, president trump, the white house more broadly, they have spent months trying to turn the steel dossier itself boo a huge scandal. it is against one serving justice department official. because bruce ohr's wife worked at fusion gps. mr. ohr appears to have contact himself with christopher steel during the campaign. so house republicans have gone along with the attacks on the dossier, the attacks on anybody associated with the dossier, and they are now going i know what the attacks on the justice department official who the justice department has singled out as being connected to the dossier. house republicans have summoned bruce ohr. they threatened a subpoena but
he will appear voluntarily. so there is been all this drama around the steele dossier. the other threatening action related to the steele dossier has been lawsuits. these lawsuits, like the one, filed by herman khan. today a judge dismissed the defamation lawsuits against christopher steele and orbis business intelligence. it was dismissed with prejudice which means the plaintiffs cannot bring it up again. so alpha bank. we still don't know if there was anything operational when it came to efforts to interfere in the 2016 election or any potential trump campaign involvement in that effort. we've seen no firm evidence but lots of suggestions about that possibility. we still don't know if it is
just a coincidence. we still don't know if there's anything shady about the fact brian, hired by alpha bank to get them out of that russia related scandal ends up in a senior position at the u.s. justice department. but at least we do have this one conclusive statement today. the effort to sue, to make their connection to the steele dossier go away. today that lawsuit failed in a way that seems quite definitive. >> the next person to go to prison in the trump scandal might be george papadopoulos. late friday we learned the special counsel recommended to the judge in this case that george papadopoulos should serve up to six months in prison. the actual recommendation range it was zero to six months in prison. the great lynn sweet at the "chicago sun times" report that
george papadopoulos's lawyers intend to ask the judge in this case for zero jail time. the formal response to the sentencing recommendation is due at the end of next week. when you look at the sentencing recommendation for george papadopoulos from the special counsel's office, from the prosecutors, it was really not good for him. aside from the range of potential prison time they are suggesting, the way they describe papadopoulos's behavior is not complimentary to him. the prosecutors told the court, the plea agreement entered into was not a standard cooperation agreement. prosecutors merely agreed to bring to the court's attention at sentencing the defendant's efforts to cooperate with the government. what prosecutors ended up bringing to the court's attention at sentencing was ten-page long list of ways in which george papadopoulos didn't
help them out at all. quote, the defendant did not provide substantial assistance. the prosecutors later said that he lied over and over again in ways that materially hurt the government's case. quote, the defendant's crime was serious, both in terms of the underlying conduct and its effect on the investigation. the defendant knew the questions he was asked by the fbi were important and he knew his answers were false at the time he gave them. his lies negatively affected fbi's russia investigation and prevented the fbi from effectively identifying and confronting witnesses in a timely fashion. they were not momentary lapses. he lied repeatedly over the course of more than two hours. the sentence imposed should reflect lying to federal investigators has real consequences. especially where the defendant lied to investigators about critical facts and an investigation of national importance. after having been explicitly warned that lying to the fbi is a federal offense.
the nature and circumstances of the offense warrant a sentence of incarceration. so a couple things to watch. number one, this is the government emphatically saying, george papadopoulos should do jail time. according to lynn sweet's report, they said he shouldn't do any jail time at all. but reference there that i read from the sentencing recommendation, there part here. the plea agreement sweer into was not a standard cooperation agreement. that raises the possibility george papadopoulos may have some ongoing criminal liability here. this is not a recommendation that says, you know, listen, judge, our deal has been upheld on both sides. this guy was really helpful to us. not that. they're saying he didn't help us
and he lied. this was not a formal agreement. we said we told the judge, if he helped us when it came time. they're saying, no, he didn't help us. the prospect of additional criminal liability. some indictment, some new indictment in the future. now that we know the government says he wasn't an earnest cooperator, that now looms over this little part of this case. and the sense that there is something important unresolved and it comes to george papadopoulos was helped along by this public statement that he made today on twitter. 4:00 this afternoon. i'll quote it directly. quote, been a hell of a year. decisions. as a point of fact i'm not sure how many decisions he has to make. we'll get some expert advice on that in a moment. the last set of developments in today's news related to the
scandal. centered around the campaign chairman, paul manafort, who incidentally, has a notable new neighbor. as of this weekend. in a move that was described as surprise to all involved friday night, look who moved in. accused russian foreign agent maria butina. on friday night was moved from the jail in d.c. where she was arrested in july. they took her out of that jail friday night and brought her over to where paul manafort lives now which is the federal lockup in xanld rhea, virginia. the reason we have this unflattering picture of her is because i think she's been moved to that new facility in virginia. you see the alexandria sheriff's office. i think we get mug shots from that facility. she hasn't been convicted of anything. she's being held in jail before her trial because prosecutors
thought she would be a flight risk. basically, they argued to the judge that the russians would spirit her out of the country before she cover face charges if the judge left her out on the street. that's why she has not been let out on the street. but now for whatever reason, they have moved her from one lockup. that means she's only about two blocks away from where paul manafort's trial has been underway in virginia. that's not the courthouse where she'll be tried. she'll be tried in washington, d.c. we know it is not unheard of for people waiting to end up in this jail. and it is surprising that nobody knows why she was moved. according to her lawyer, neither she nor her lawyer had any notice before it happened 40 night. her attorney said, i got a
collect call. he visited her this morning. she was not in, i am still unaware of the reason. we contacted him today to see if he had learned today why his client was moved from d.c. to virginia. he told us, quote, no news. i have no answers yet. you can ask the marshals service. it is their call. we did ask the marshals service and they didn't call us back. surprise! there's no reason to think that they'll have contact with each other while they're in the same jail but it is weird that they are now both in the same jail. we are expecting to get prosecutors' list of evidence that they planned to use against
manafort in his next criminal trial due to start next month in federal court in d.c. the evidence list has been described as containing over 1,000 items. the deadline for the list is to be made public, is that it should be made public tomorrow. that should be a big long list. it should be a very interesting window into what paul manafort's next prosecution might look like. and meanwhile, we're still waiting on the jury and his first felony trial. the jury considering manafort's fate in virginia, they deliberated all day thursday, they deliberated all day friday. the judge sent them home over the week. they've deliberated all day today. at 4:49 today, the judge announced the jury would stay late. last week they broke at 5:00. today, they asked to deliberate until later. until at least 6:15 p.m.
maybe they might be planning to release a verdict on manafort tonight. that turned out not to be the case. the court reconvened after 6:00 and many the judge announced, once again no verdict. they will come back tomorrow to start deliberating again at 9:30 in the morning. so two questions. with a jury deliberating over the course of nine hours today and 24 hours in total. is that starting to feel like a long time some is that a long deliberation and does it mean anything? if you're an attorney, they go through these long stretches. do you find it to be heartening or disheartening or do we just not know? second question. last question. is it a little weird that the
jury is like on the loose? out in the wild? not sequestered? they're just sent home every night. they're sent home the whole weekend. the judge himself has suggested that jurors might reasonably be afraid for their own safety in this case. he stated that he's received threats in conjunction with this case. he cited the threats in conjunction with not releasing the names. and they are freely mingling with reporters and anybody else who has business at the xanld rhea federal courthouse. meanwhile, with these jurors, sort of on the loose despite that the judge is talking about potential danger they might be in, the judge has been admonishing them every day that they shouldn't consume any media about the case.
this is unusual. there's a certain amount of pressure in this case on, which these jurors are deliberating. the president of the united states has repeatedly made public statements praising the defendant. saying the defendant is being mistreated. calling his prosecution sad. and on the other side, every day, and sometimes two, three, four, six times a day, the president makes public statements in writing and out loud denouncing the prosecution in this case. he's been praising the defendant, paul manafort, and he's been denouncing the prosecution. the special counsel's office. the president daily renounces them. it might be difficult for jurors to avoid seeing any mention of the fact. that the president has been calling the prosecutors in this case, quote, a national disgrace. saying this is a rigged investigation. the president deriding robert
mueller and the special counsel's office. presidents in the past have avoided weighing in on criminal cases so as to avoid the appearance in a penning case. with this president it is totally the obvious. he is absolutely trying to influence the case. and i know it is rare to sequester a jury, to put a jury in a hotel and not give them any contact with their homes or the outside world until later. but the president of the united states is directing at this case on a daily basis, clearly trying to influence the verdict of the jury. is this one of those cases where the jury should have been sequestered? joining us now, barbara mcquaid thank you so much.
nice to see you. >> my pleasure to see you. >> it is my impression as i rare thing for a jury to be sequestered but judges do sometimes order it, and particularly high profile cases or when there's a particularly high prediction jurors under normal circumstances won't be able to have avoid media exposure or pressure on their verdict. is that basically true? >> yeah. it is very rare that a jury would be sequestered. i've never seen in it federal court. i know it has happened in some high profile cases. i think the bill cosby case was one, o.j. simpson, casey anthony, george zimmerman. so a few high profile cases. but i know one difference is that they're not televised. so you're not likely to see
television coverage. so another reason is you dome want to put pressure on jurors to get done and get on with their lives and sequestration to cause them to be hasty in their decision. aside from that, expense. i've never seen it done in federal court. >> in terms of the president's remarks in this case, i see his remarks being so starkly positive toward the defendant, unfair prosecution of the defendant, and his withering attacks, even in personal terms against the president. would that, what can the judge do to protect them? >> the judge does give that instruction. a standard instruction. when i was in court he gave that instruction every day. not to read anything in the media. to discuss the case.
there's case law that says jurors are presumed to have followed their instructions unless you can show otherwise. so people expect that juries will follow that advice. there are four alternates in this case so if someone were to come in and say, i was at home and i overheard this on the television. or someone blurted this out or someone told me trump said these things. they could be replaced with alternate. but i think the judge would ask you, do you think you could set it aside, i think most people would say yes, i can set them aside. so certainly they're highly inflammatory and highly irregular that we would see something like this. prosecutors are ethically bound not to speak with the guilt because an authority figure
could have an influence on the outcome. so it is very shocking that a president would make comments like this. >> and what do you lethink? >> the longer it is, the more likely there is a hung juror or a not guilty. i don't think we've gone on that long yet. they say bits a day of dleb rags for every week of testimony. in this case, i would think with the complexity they did not always display the documents. he would say they can look at that later is causing lengthier deliberations. he speeded up the trial but i think the cost for that is lengthier deliberations, while they go back and review all the documents. so i'm not concerned yet. >> and we all end up on the edge
of our seats. >> thank you. >> thank you. we have a lot to get to. stay with us. to find my dream abode. -right away, i could tell his priorities were a little unorthodox. -keep going. stop. a little bit down. stop. back up again. is this adequate sunlight for a komodo dragon? -yeah. -sure, i want that discount on car insurance just for owning a home, but i'm not compromising. -you're taking a shower? -water pressure's crucial, scott! it's like they say -- location, location, koi pond. -they don't say that.
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"the new york times" is reporting that the ongoing investigation regarding michael cohen is zeroing in on potential bank fraud involving michael cohen's involvement in the taxi business. also campaign finance loans in the payoffs that he helped arrange to at least two women who said they had sexual relationships with the president. this follows same contours of what was reported a couple weeks ago by the "wall street journal." now "the new york times" has the story, too, as does the associated press. all of these stories have the same basic contours. and none of that is the same as us seeing a real live indictment. but it does at least mean there's a big pile of credible corroborating reporting that all lays out the same potential charges against cohen. if it is true about what michael cohen will be charged with, then
first question is, oh, yeah? show me. when is this going to happen? second question is, is michael cohen talking with prosecutors about a potential cooperation deal to lessen his legal jeopardy to help prosecutors with information that they could use in other cases? that's what everybody is watching. i'm not going to give you, we're chasing that story as hard as everybody is. everybody is chasing the same story. that potential drama of the president's white house counsel don mcgahn and his personal lawyer michael cohen, not just getting lawyers themselves but potentially enthusiastic witnesses in cases involving the president? yeah. there's a reason everybody is chasing this story so hard. but here is something specific to consider. late last week, there document was filed in federal court in
manhattan. just two pages. from the special master who was hired by the court to review evidence that was seized from michael cohen's home. his home and his office and his hotel newsroom april. the special master was appointed by the court to check all the documents that were seized to make sure they were not covered by attorney-client privilege. and if they were not, then he would hand them over to special prosecutors to review for charges against michael cohen. well, in this last little filing, from the special master late last week, the special master, this retired judge, gives a final accounting of just how many documents and files she found to be covered by attorney-client privilege. bottom line is not many. a found thousand out of millions of documents taken. but look at this. special master also says, there was one thing that i couldn't ever review. i could never look the see wlor
it was covered by attorney-client privilege. just one. michael cohen's encrypted black berry. she said she never got and its contents on review because apparently they don't have the password to the black berry. so the special master said in this filing, if down the road the government does manage to crack it open, they'll to have use a filter team at the u.s. attorney's office and check to it see if any of the stuff is privileged. and she hopes that's okay. because she's done now. she's wrapped up her work so that's the one outstanding matter. that still hand been taken care of. you'll to have deal with it some other way. here my question. nearly five months into the michael cohen saga, prosecutors still don't have the password to his blackberry? why have i read 5,000 articles in which michael cohen has given every conceivable signal that he wants to cooperate. that all this gossip and spin he is desperate to help prosecutors
any way he can. if so, shouldn't michael cohen be sky writing his blackberry password over sdny headquarters? if they need that password, that's the one bit of his files and documents they haven't reviewed. the stuff on that blackberry. if they need and it they don't have it, isn't that a clear sign the two sides are not talking? or at least if they are talking, he's not helping. so much spin around the michael cohen side of this story. do not fall for it. watch this space. rmer. my life is here... [telephone ring] ahoy-hoy. alexander graham bell here... no, no, my number is one, you must want two! two, i say!! like my father before... [telephone ring] like my father before... ahoy-hoy! as long as people talk too loudly on the phone, you can count on geico saving folks money. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more
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this era in d.c. has been marked by many mysteries. not chief among those but maybe deputy chief among mysteries, how come white house counsel don mcgahn is so good at playing the hero in the press? how come he is so good at getting a heroic look at his stoic forebaerns into the papers? how has he managed to get so many stories into the newspapers in which he alone, he bravely is secretly the real american hero? don mcigan is reported to have been the one who calmed the president down after rob mueller was appointed. so the president didn't do something truly crazy. don mcgahn has threatened to resign rather than fire robert mueller, which the president had ordered him to do.
do you think the white house weirdly mishandled the firing of mike flynn after they were warned? no, no. he didn't mismanage anything. he reportedly warned the white house about the lying of michael flynn right away. he was right on top of it. don mcigan shows up in the press as hanging in there through the chaos, self-lessly pulling back from quitting, hanging in there to take care of the country's needs despite really being pushed around by the president in an unfair way. i don't know who one day will pay the part familiar with his thinking when the movie is made of all this but the role is getting larger every day. this tweaked "times" reported that don mcgahn has cooperated extensive when i the robert mueller inquiry. he sat with investigators over 30 hours in the last nine months. he laid out how the president
tried ensure the investigation though never going beyond his legal authorities. and yes, the white house may be a little freaked out to realize they had no idea don mcigan had talked so much. they had no idea that in the 30 hours of testimony, that he don mcgahn had no choice but to self-l selflessly give. the legal team told the lawyers he would have resigned if he thought he had witnessed the president committing a crime. the source tell nbc, there's no way of knowing how his testimony may fit with any other evidence that the mueller investigation has collected. the mystery, the secret heroism keeps growing by the hour. there are a few lumps in the oinltment though. hold that thought. this is an insurance commercial.
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but i almost feel like i do. this part of the story now so much a part of how we think about how things blow up in american politics when they blow up really badly. i was 2 1/2 weeks old. this was april 19, 1973. >> the statement issued today by john dean, the white house counsel, caught everybody by surprise. specially white house. it was really not a statement. it was a warning to the people dean works for. anybody who knows me, anybody who knows the true facts about watergate, knows better than to try to make a scapegoat out of me. that was dean's statement and the implication was that he has a lot of unspilled beans the spill if he is forced to spill them. the white house's comment, nobody is trying the make anybody a scapegoat. we're just trying to get to the truthful he made his statement without notifying anybody at the white house in advance and the white house was obviously shocked. the press secretary asked if
dean is stale mental in good standing of the white house team would say only that he is in his office. he has not resigned. he has not been fired. this could be the case for some time to come but it is clear that from now on, john dean is white house counsel in name only. nbc news at the white house. >> 11 days after that warning shot from then white house counsel john dean, president richard nixon fired him. and nixon's supporters immediately began pointing to john dean as the person who everybody should blame for the whole watergate scandal and the whole cover-up. it should all be on dean's head. not the president's. that didn't work out well. but now we've got a current president of the united states talking about john dean in public, calling him a rat for having testified against nixon 45 years ago. and we've got the current white house counsel also citing the example of john dean.
basically to say, he is trying avoid john dean's ultimate fate in watergate which is yeah, maybe now he's remembered as a hero, or a rat, depending on how you look it a. but at the time john dean went to prison. both sides are sort of misremembering how things worked out for john dean. michael beschloss is here next to sort it out. what's the hesitation? eh, it just feels too complicated, you know? well sure, at first, but jj can help you with that. jj, will you break it down for this gentleman? hey, ian. you know, at td ameritrade, we can walk you through your options trades step by step until you're comfortable. i could be up for that. that's taking options trading from wall st. to main st. hey guys, wanna play some pool? eh, i'm not really a pool guy. what's the hesitation? it's just complicated. step-by-step options trading support from td ameritrade at&t provides edge-to-edge intelligence, covering virtually every part of your manufacturing business. & so this won't happen. because you've made sure this sensor and this machine are integrated. & she can talk to him, & yes...
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last april by richard nixon told the senate watergate committee today that the president was involved in watergate wrongdoing and having accused the president, dean said he hopes mr. nixon will be forgiven. that's how dean began his testimony today. >> it is my honest belief that while the president was involved, that he did not realize or appreciate at any time the implications of his involvement. and i think that when the facts come out, i hope the president is forgiven. >> john dean followed that assertion with a 245 page statement that took all day to read, crammed with quotes, dates, memoranda and detailed recollections of talks with the president. >> a 245 page statement that he read outloud. nixon's white house counsel john dean had decided early on in the watergate scandal that nixon was going to try to make him the
scapegoat. once he figured that out, he made 180 degree turn. he went straight to federal prosecutors. he told them he would cooperate with them fully. by the time nixon fired john dean from the white house counsel's job, dean had already for weeks been helping prosecutors on watergate. so with this new reporting over the past couple of days that the current white house counsel has spoken for 30 hours with special counsel robert mueller, the president now is literally launching a new attack on john dean saying that dean was a rat for testifying against nixon back in the day. but the current white house counsel john mcgahn is in here of dean's legacy. he says he's determined to not
have john dean's fate. he was prohibited from practi practicing law. that is what compelled him to cooperate with robert mueller. that's become the blueprint for this dynamic we have been watching unfold. is the white house counsel right to worry about john dean's fate? will testifying now help him avoid that fate? and is the president right to be concerned about rats? joining us now the nbc news presidential historian. it is great to have you with us tonight? >> thanks, rachel. good to see you. >> the president today called john dean a rat. when dean came forward in 1973, what did nixon supporters do in response? how was he treated at the time? >> well, when he testified before the senate, as you were just showing and said that nixon was central to the coverup, a lot of nixon people were very angry.
but what amazes me, rachel, is that if we were to talk to any president from gerald ford all the way through barack obama and say what do you think of john dean? they would have said a flawed person but ultimately a hero of watergate because he helped to expose richard nixon. this is another sign of this weird time we're living through that the current president, donald trump, was use a word like rat. >> one of the things we're watching unspool now in this story is that nobody is quite sure whether or not don mcgahn acted heroically or whether he had to talk to the special counsel. did john dean at white house counsel have a choice in terms of whether he was going to cop wop rate? he worried he was going to get blamed and this was his effort to get out ahead of it. but how much of a choice did he have? >> in the end probably not much. you were so right tonight to say
be very kcautious about what we're hearing from the outside. in dean's case he knew he was central to the coverup. he knew nixon was trying to make him the scapegoat and blame watergate on him. when dean started talking to people in the legal process, he did two things that ultimately were crucial. number one, he gave them information that showed that not only should they will investigating the watergate break-in, which is what they had been focussed on, but they should also look at nixon in terms of obstruction of justice that shifted the investigation. ultimately, obstruction of justice was article number one of the bills of impeachment that would have been voted against nixon. the other thing dean did was he said when i was talking to nixon nixon would say things like, well, i didn't do such and such,
did i, john? it sounded as many maybe i was being taped. that caused them to be aware of the possibility that there would be tapes that would show the real story. >> dean's recollections about the way nixon talked to him was a signal essentially to investigators that there were tapes they should look for. >> they were looking very hard and finally, alexander butterfield knew about that, was approached by investigators for the senate watergate committee. he was the one that revealed those tapes to the public. ultima ultimately, they brought nixon down. >> thank you, my friend. great to have you here. >> thank you. be waell. >> thank you. stay with us. adults are just kids with much, much better toys. introducing the 2018 c-class sedan, coupe and cabriolet. the thrills keep getting better.
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A recap of the day's news.
me late one night, to hit the reset button on his life and liz previous loyalty to such a man that he considered especially after helsinki to be a danger to our country. as president of the united states. >> so do you know what giuliani has been saying? he's a liar, this is nothing more than a series of lies, he's a liar, liar, liar, liar. what do you say to that? >> the man who said truth is not truth. the man who takes away any dispute of fact that donald trump committed a crime when he directed my client, michael cohen to pay the money to miss daniels. it was rudy giuliani who broke the attorney/client privilege, contradicted president trump's lie on air force one who said,
mr. trump reimbursed michael cohen for the advance money paid to miss daniels to keep her quiet. that is rudy giuliani saying that donald trump knew, directed and paid michael cohen. >> there is no allegation of any wrongdoing against the president in the government charges against mr. cohen. this is giuliani speaking here. it is clear that as the prosecutor noted, mr. cohen's actions reflect a pattern of lies and dishonesty over a significant period of time. >> let me repeat. i am talking about a fact not in dispute. mr. trump's attorney submitted a letter published to the special council, in which they said mr. trump directed mr. cohen to make this payment. whatever giuliani wants to invent, that truth isn't truth or to say what's on the tape
he was trying to cover up and hide his own role in the situation with ms. daniels by having cohen do the deed rather than himself. there is no dispute, there is no need for proof. his lawyers have admitted that fact. >> everyone knew that the president knew. and when he got aboard air force one, we know, he knew about this payment. you say michael cohen has information that should be of interest to the special council, and he's more than happy to tell mueller all that he knows. does this mean that cohen will say what cnn reported a month ago, that cohen told friend s trump knew of the trump tower meeting ahead of time? >> there's certain things that an attorney and client share that i can't divulge, unlike rudy giuliani, who waived attorney client privilege when he spoke about what donald trump told him. i'm not allowed to do that.
russian -- the conspiracy to included as well as actual knowledge of a crime that most people would call the fbi about, and we'll see what develops with mr. mueller's investigation, i think he knows a lot more than we think he knows. >> if michael has all of this stuff as you say, and there's no reason to believe that he doesn't. why would the president and the president's team, the administration work as hard almost every day to throw michael cohen under the bus and keep backing up over him? or as one of our analysts said, you know, on air force one, throwing him under air force one. why would he do that? >> or they do that? >> it's impossible to understand rudy giuliani's conduct. truth is not truth, throwing a client under the busby admitting essentially we now know a crime
by saying he reimbursed a campaign contribution that was above the limits and didn't disclose it in his 2019 -- 2018 report, rudy giuliani simply doesn't understand the law or doesn't care about the law. and this particular culture of lying we know, that it was rudy giuliani who said that when donald trump lied to the press on air force one -- you've done that clip, i've seen. it's not a crime to lie to the american people. well, giuliani's right about that, but it is an impeachable offense. to use the office of the president to abuse the powers of the presidency and lie to the american people. >> i'm not going to hold you too much longer, but again you say, michael cohen has information that does what as it relates to conspiracy and collusion? >> i think it would be of interest to mr. mueller, and i
don't want to go any further than that. mr. mueller, in a book that's about to come out in paperback version that i wrote, i liken mr. mueller to a silent deadly submarine under the surface, leak proof with the fuel energized by one thing, facts. facts. something that rudy giuliani doesn't think exists, and that donald trump literally doesn't care when he ignores. and we'll see what mr. mueller comes up with, but i do believe that michael cohen will tell the truth to rudy giuliani and will tell the truth about donald trump. >> appreciate your time. lanny davis, thank you very much. when we come back, stormy daniels attorney says the president's fingerprints are all over the crime scene in collection with the violation of campaign finance laws.
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michael cohen pleading guilty to eight criminal counts today. cohen admitting then candidate donald trump directed him to make those payments. here to discuss the attorney representing storm my daniels, michael avenatti. you say you believe lanny davis dropped a bombshell in that interview. >> lanny davis just made an admission that has never been made before. it's the first i've heard of this, he just stated on your show moments ago. where are the receipts, vis-a-vis donald trump's involvement. lanny davis just stated there was a wire transfer directly
into the account that michael cohen had established. this was the essential consultants account in order to pay my client the $130,000 payment. that is a huge problem for the president. it would be direct conduct by the trump organization to reimburse that payment. that would constitute campaign finance violation, and would basically make donald trump a co-conspirator. that is directly contrary to what rudy giuliani told sean hannity a few months ago. what he told sean hannity was, the payment was reimbursed by way of invoices, i think he said laundered -- or used a similar word when describing how the 130,0$130,000 was uses.
>> funneled. >> that was an interesting word. if there was a $130,000 payment that went out to my client which we know there was. and there was a $130,000 wire that came into that account. the president's in a lot of trouble. >> how so? explain. >> because i think it's an open and shut case. relating to the fact that this $130,000 payment was paid by michael cohen with the understanding that he was going to be reimbursed directly by donald trump or the trump organization. that would have had to have been disclosed. >> another part of the interview. i said, i followed up, and he -- it would be good for -- okay, this is not verbatim, it is notes. some things i can't divulge, attorney/client privilege, certain complications, we are unable to correct michael cohen. has information that we would be -- that would be of interest to mr. mueller. this is paraphrasing here, i
won't call it a smoking gun. someone will have to characterize it, but he does have information that would be of interest and it pertains to a crime most people would call the fbi about. >> don, i think the big effort problem right now for donald trump is, that he has lost control. he's lost control over manafort, he's lost control over cohen. these two individuals now are going to be looking to do whatever they can to cut their own criminal sentences, to protect their families, and there's not a lot that donald trump is going to be able to do about it, and i will just tell you, though, if there's a wire transfer receipt for $130,000 payment directly from the trump organization. that is nothing short of a bombshell. i want to say one thing, i respect lanny, but i disagree with him about what we just heard, i think it's complete nonsense and spin. michael cohen did not all of a sudden find love of country and did not all of a sudden become a patriot. did not all of a sudden conclude
after having known donald trump for 12 or 15 years that donald trump would not make a good president. here's what happened, michael cohen realized he was dead to rights, he was in the crosshairs, whatever metaphor you want to use, as it relates to prosecutors from the southern district of new york. he took the steps he's taken for no other reason than to save himself and his family. let's be clear about that, let's not try to call it anything other than what it is, just so everyone understands what happened. this season the about love of country or patriotism, michael cohen waited until the last possible moment, you've witnessed it over the last five months. he's been practically begging for donald trump to lead him out of the dark force for months now, it became clear it wasn't going to happen. >> he was waiting on some help in the president. >> no question. >> i think he was waiting for loyalty and it never developed. >> it's a lengthy sound bite, but this is what you were referring to earlier, when it comes to the alleged wire
transfer if that is what happened. watch this. >> does he have the proof? does he have the receipts? >> first of all, yes, the wire transfer from the trump corporation to the account that michael cohen set up, that then went to stormy daniels is recognizable and provable. let me repeat, the proof is president trump's own lawyers, wrote the special council and used the word directed. there doesn't need to be proof when the lawyers have acknowledged that the client directed michael cohen to make an illegal payment. making the client as guilty certainly as the lawyer, and in my judgment more guilty, because he was trying to cover up and hide his own role in the situation with miss daniels by having before cohen do the deed rather than himself. there is no dispute, there is no need for proof, his lawyers have
admitted that fact. >> the first part of that is, you say what? >> that's a bombshell. if what lanny davis just stated is true, there's a $130,000 wire transfer directly into that bank account that was used to pay my client. and that is a direct reimbursement from donald trump or a company controlled by limb, which is what lanny davis just said, it is a stunning piece of evidence and stunning admission. it runs counter to what rudy giuliani said and it also runs counter to david schwartz. >> he defended cohen. >> used to defend michael cohen. you'll remember all the things that david schwartz told the american people that ended up being absolutely false. >> you've made a lot of predictions, and a lot of them have come true. i'm wondering what this means, i'll get to that -- what does this mean for your case? does this mean that you will possibly get to depose a sitting
president? what are the chances of that? >> i think the likelihood of us being able to depose first michael cohen and second donald trump, i think those odds went through the roof today as a result of the plea, as a result of the language in the plea, and the facts that michael cohen pled to. i think there's little question as to whether we're going to get a deposition of michael cohen, and i'm going to be permitted to ask him specific questions about what happened and the level of communications, and i'm going to get to the details relating to that and then i am guessing. i'm not guessing, i'm speculating, i'm on solid ground i'm going to get a deposition of the president of the united states. >> zero doubt that michael cohen is already cooperating and has been cooperating with investigators, do you mean the special council or the southern district? >> i'm referring to the southern district. it does not sound to me that he has cooperated with the special council. >> i don't think they've offered him the queen for a day thing.
according to our source that i know that has not been put on the table. the queen for a day, to talk to the special council. you also have said that you think this president will resign before his term is -- what is your proof, what's the indication of that, and how do you feel about that now? >> i said that a number of months ago, and i feel even more strongly about that statement today in light of what lapped with paul manafort and with michael cohen. i think the walls are closing in on the president, i don't think he's going to serve out his term. i want to be clear about something, there's a lot of things that have to happen. there's a dynamic situation. we don't know what the southern district of new york is going to do that is provided by michael cohen. i stand on that prediction. >> rudy giuliani tweeted, buckle up, buttercup, you and your client completely misplayed this. >> i tweeted that out, because i meant it. >> you tweeted that to rudy giuliani? >> he's an absolute walking disaster of an attorney.
he's destroyed liz legacy, he's done a disservice to himself and his client. and he's committed legal malpractice in the way they've handled this. donald trump should have brought michael cohen into the tent a long time ago. >> i asked lanny that question, why did he keep him and giuliani -- >> they don't understand the sense of loyalty unless you're last name is putin. then they understand loyalty. >> your client tweeted this, how you like me now? #teamstormy. >> how big of a day is this for your case? >> it's a huge day. she's ecstatic, she feels vindicated. there are a lots of legal pundits that took a fair amount of shots at her and me, and our legal strategy, how we use the media. as of today, it looks okay. >> yeah, all of that reporting we were doing was fake news, remember? >> all fake news. all facts are fake news. >> thank you, sir, i appreciate it. we'll be right back.
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paul manafort spending the rest of his life in prison. the judge declaring a mistrial on 10 other counts, also michael cohen pleading guilty to eight other counts today as well. i want to bring in renata mariati and arriva martin. you have heard lanny davis. lanlny davis said he believes that michael cohen has information that the special council would be interested in. michael avant atty believes that lani dave dropped a bombshell when he talked about the possibility of a record of a wire transfer from the trump organization. what do you make of this? >> there's a popular saying, that justice rides a slow horse, she eventually gets there. i would say today she got there. you know, just overwhelming news on the legal front for the trump team. what happened with paul manafort in terms of eight counts where
he's found guilty of bank fraud and tax evasion. and now, you know, michael cohen, the long time fixer and personal lawyer for the president pleading guilty to eight counts, two of which directly involve the president of the united states. clearly an unpress dented day for the government, for the president. shocking revelation by lanny davis that this isn't over, when i looked at that interview, what it said to me is, we have a long way to go, and more shoes are going to drop, whether mueller decides that he can indict a sitting president. clearly enough information has come out today just from what we saw michael cohen plead to in federal court to suggest that there is a case that can be made against donald trump for criminal activity, and it's so ironic that donald trump said during the campaign, that hillary clinton would be the most scandal ridden president in
the history of this country. and now we have donald trump, his campaign adviser, his long term personal adviser, his personal lawyer, his fixer, both pled guilty and one convicted of felonies. unprecedented. >> and then this mueller case. let's see, one sentence five guilty pleas. one person found guilty, 35 defendants, 191 criminal charges, there it is up on the screen. what do you think? >> i will tell you, don, my mouth dropped when i saw that michael cohen went into federal court and under oath said that he was directed by donald trump to commit a crime. i mean, that is serious, the folks at home don't need any of us to tell them that that is a very very big deal. when you direct someone to commit a crime, you are guilty of that crime, whether you are a mob boss or a drug dealer or something else. >> does that make him an
unindicted co-conspirator? >> yeah, it makes him -- there's something called agency liability. when you are telling somebody to do something at your direction, you are responsible for that crime. whether he agreed to do it with cohen, it's certainly one way of looking at it. he actually is responsible for the crime, as cohen was his agent. either way, if cohen is telling the truth, donald trump has committed a felony. full stop. that is serious business. there's no way to explain that away as a witch hunt. this isn't the mueller team doing this, this is a bunch of prosecutors doing their job in new york. this isn't about collusion. there's no discussion one way or another about collusion or the dossier or any of that other nonsense we've been hearing about on fox news or the president's team talk about. this is a federal crime, and the president's own former lawyer is the one who says he did it under oath. >> wouldn't it be interesting.
and you can say whatever you want after this. if -- whatever comes out of the mueller investigation, let's put that aside. but if what comes out of something that mueller actually referred to the southern district is the thing that trips this president up the most? >> that would be incredibly interesting, don, i don't want to put the mueller investigation aside. i think we should settle -- >> just for -- >> i think that would be amazing, it's important for us to note, this is a president that has ridiculed, has taken pod shots at the mueller investigation, has called it a witch hunt a hoax, has tried to demean it in the most aggressive way possible. and to date, out of that mueller investigation, came the referral to the southern district of new york, which led to michael cohen pleading guilty to those eight counts, trump can no longer try to delegitimize the mueller investigation because it's clear today that mueller and his team
know what they're doing, they're experts and they're getting at the bottom of what happened, not just with donald trump and other people in his orbit, it says to me today too, jared kushner, other individuals that are in that personal circle of donald trump, we may be hearing something from the special council and his team of investigators as it relates to those individuals as well. i don't think they're out of the clear by a longshot. >> thank you, i appreciate your time. when we come back, both the president's former campaign chairman and his personal attorney headed to prison. that makes five members of trump's circle who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes. what happened to trump's law and order presidency? what happened? with our largesty of crab all year! like new crabfest combo. your one chance to have new jumbo snow crab with tender dungeness crab. or try crab lover's dream. but hurry in. 'cause crabfest ends september 2nd.
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the president's former fixer michael cohen pleads guilty to eight criminal counts on the same day paul manafort is convicted of eight financial crimes. remember when donald trump said he was the law and order candidate? joining me now to discuss is mike shields, the former chief of staff at the rnc and rick wilson, the author of the book, everything trump touches dies. gentlemen, good evening. my sources are telling cnn white house staffers were stunned and rattled by these legal bombshells and the president has been stewing. what's your reaction to what we saw today? >> well, it's obviously not good. you don't want your lawyer to be pleading guilty and also to try to implicate you as he's trying to plead himself out of the sentence that he has or his wife
might get into trouble. i thought it was interesting watching michael avenatti disagree with lanny davis on his motives, he was ascribing michael cohen's motives as patriotism. no, it's not patriotism, he's trying to save himself. i think that's a real interesting take, it puts into perspective when someone is already admitted to being a criminal, a lot of the things they say really are at that point self-serving. this is something that has to be proven before anyone can reach conclusions, and so the tease was a law and order president. the president ran on that because of things like what happened today in iowa, where we saw an illegal immigrant committed murder, those are the kind of law and order things. he heent been convicted of anything or found guilty of anything, there's someone who's going to jail accusing him of something many. >> what do you think, rick? >> look, i think that the joke
that was making the rounds tonight is right on point. maga now stands for my attorney got arrested. his campaign manager is now a convicted felon. his personal attorney today is pleading out in federal court and implicating the president directly while he was a candidate in law breaking. we've got a whole constellation of other trump people who have plead guilty or cooperating with prosecutors because this is a guy who was standing atop a gigantic mountain of corruption. he's standing atop a gigantic mountain of obstruction as well. all these things that have been slowly building up for donald trump, that this is an unfair witch hunt by hillary's angry minions is falling apart. people are seeing this now, you can't spin away the fact that paul manafort, who was donald trump's campaign manager is going to spends the rest of his
life in jail. michael cohen is going to jail. and for things they did. both before and during his administration, and his campaign. >> so listen -- >> go ahead. >> i'm old enough to remember being on here with rick, where rick specifically made the point to me, that the cohen investigation had nothing to do with the mueller investigation, and so i think that's an interesting point. because in the manafort case, they're not looking at russia collusion of the trump campaign, they're looking at tax fraud and payments that he had, and he hid, and in the cohen case, that was not a part according to everyone of the mueller case. >> can i jump in here real quick. and ask you -- >> we're nowhere near the end of the road. >> can i ask you, though. does that change since michael cohen directly implicated donald trump today? he may have said that yesterday or five minutes before michael cohen did that. doesn't that -- >> make a difference? >> not in -- when you -- what
rick was saying is that the president calls this whole thing a witch hunt, what he's referring to is the mueller investigation trying to create a conspiracy case around the president's campaign, and he's repeatedly said there was no such thing, and now we're saying, oh, my gosh, two people around him have gotten into trouble. neither one of them has anything to do with what that was originally about. and what democrats talk about every time they can, about mueller, which is russian collusion, neither one of these two things has anything to do with that. >> go ahead, rick, what were you saying? >> this is the first couple steps in a long waltz. and this is never going to get better. and robert mueller is circling around closer and closer, the cohen thing was ancillary. because it was ancillary, the individual charges and case issues were ancillary to the overall investigation. mueller's charter was to explore russian interference and the role the trump campaign may have
played with it, any other crimes that may emerge from that, they have a duty to go ahead and push through on these things. this is the first couple steps in this dance. this isn't the end for donald trump, it doesn't get easier after this, it gets harder, it gets worse, they're going to close in soon. roger stone's going to be staring up at a gray ceiling and a jail cell pretty soon. there are a lot of these guys that are going to be facing continued pressure on this. and the fact of the matter is, i think it speaks to the president's character, the man who promised he was a law and order candidate, it seems like for a guy who's going to hire the best people, he seems to be hiring the best felons, and there's a long trail of these other people that are already caught up in this, and it's -- it's disproportionate to any other president in modern history, including richard nixon at this point, it's kind of remarkable how many people around donald trump seem to be in legal trouble many. >> okay. don't go anywhere, we have much more to discuss. we'll be right back.
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and may stop treatment. other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. so back with me now, rick shields, rick wilson. so, rick, with manafort convicted, michael cohen pleading guilty, lindsey graham said the american legal system is working in the paul manafort and michael cohen cases. thus far there have yet to be any charges or convictions for colluding with the russian government by any member of the trump campaign in the 2016 election. it's important to let the process continue without interference. i hope mr. mueller can conclude his investigation sooner rather than later for the benefit of the nation. what happened today caused congressional republicans to rethink their support for the president. >> well, it should.
but i think we've seen a lot of behavior already where they're going to do everything they can to avoid the mean tweet from donald trump and, look, senator graham, as i tweeted back to lindsey today, i said you don't want to grab the fecal end of this stick. this is a president who will leave you hanging. he'll absolutely abandon anyone and anyone that supports him. you will -- they will be stuck with all of the radiation and the fallout and the stink off anything that happens to donald trump legally because he requires they defend him so passionately. and that's a bad bet. donald trump refuses to tell the truth to anyone about anything ever and they believe that donald trump says there is no collusion, nothing there, no conspiracy. and there is no contact with russia. we know there was contact. this is a guy who -- this is a guy who lies to his friends, allies. he's lying to members of congress right now and they're buying it like a bunch of mooks.
>> listen, a bad bet is what democrats and people who just hate the president like rick have done which is spent a year and a half now telling the american people russian collusion, russian collusion, russian collusion. that's what this is all about. putin, they colluded with the russians to win. that has been the democratic party message heading into the midterm. it's what wall to wall media coverage is. so then when something like this happens, a lot of the public goes well this isn't russian collusion. >> it is also about corruption going on. >> you spent so long going down a conspiracy path. look, i work for newt gingrich in the 09's when president clinton got impeached. there was a white water investigation and then it ended up being about something completely separate. he committed purjury under oath.
the american people didn't want to have him impeached on that. that's what happens when you set something up as a russian collusion case and then watch things like this happen. you watch if, democrats win congress, they go to impeach the president. that's what they're going to run on. >> i'm running out of time. i just want to -- i don't have a lot of time. do you want to respond to that? >> look, the situation right now with donald trump is the only easy day was yesterday. more evidence will come out. more things will be revealed. you're going to look at donald trump p's money, longer relationship with this the denials will ring hollow. everyone else will get the stink on them that has been a trump defender because they believe a math that is a pathological liar about everything. why is he telling you the truth about this one thing will thing in the universe. >> the one thing i know for sure is tomorrow is a new day and there will be new developments. >> you bet. >> thank you both v a good night. >> thank you for watching. our coverage continues.
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The latest news from around the world with hosts John Berman and Poppy Harlow.
to -- it's the same thing as an indictment. the prosecutors just didn't have to go through getting a grand jury to sit. the information doesn't have this language about the president. michael cohen, of course, in his allocution to his guilty plea stood up and stated he did these campaign finance law violations at the best of the president. >> but you think it's notable it's not included on paper? >> i do. there's the buzzword unindicted co-conspirator. the president is not technically an unindicted co-conspirator. he's not mentioned in the information so i think that was a real move on the part of the prosecutors not to go one step deeper. it would have been different if they named him in the information. >> what do you think they didn't, paul? >> it's an interesting set of charges against cohen. the charge essentially is that the payment to stormy daniels
and karen mcdougal were campaign contributions that were unreported and they were corporate campaign contributions. >> right. >> now the idea here is that cohen clearly is guilty of this, he's admitted it but if the president was using cohen to make the contribution it's an entirely different thing because the president has the right to contribute to his own campaign. >> but he has to disclose it. >> he has to disclose it. >> and we know it wasn't disclosed? >> that's right. so the only thing the president would be guilty of is a failure to report it whereas the theory against cohen is more serious and elaborate. >> can we talk about cooperation. so many headlines this morning and last night were oh, and cohen isn't cooperating. that's not totally the case. there is a bargain that says in return for pleading guilty the
sdny won't bring charges but i think it's interesting that that's only the sdny or the tax division. it doesn't include the doj or the special counsel here. >> that's the leverage they have in their tool kit. the commentary is correct that the usual course in terms of procedurally you would enter the cooperation agreement. however that by no means means a cooperation agreement is excluded. some of you have gone so far to think that there's an agreement under seal. i don't tend to agree with that but there could be cooperation down the road. >> why wouldn't michael cohen -- if he's already pleaded guilty, why wouldn't he cooperate to get less prison time? >> i think he would be eager to cooperate and i think that cohen will supply ultimately a possible road to imkrit nate the president in a far more serious way than what we're talking
about today. >> which is what? can we play lanny davis -- michael cohen's lawyer said as much. let's listen to him. >> but to answer your question, i do know that michael cohen has information that would be of interest to mr. mueller in his probe of a conspiracy to corrupt american democracy very similar to the indictment of the 12 russians. i believe mr. cohen would be able to provide information useful to the special counsel. i won't call it smoking gun information, somebody else will have to judge that. >> don lemon then asked him are you talking about the trump tower meeting with the russians and he said no, it's something else. >> well, this may be something entirely off the radar that people don't know about, lanny davis does obviously but i've always thought michael cohen is the achilles heel of donald trump because for so long he was the guy who for the trump
organization solved the difficult problems in whatever way he had to and in that business world my suspicion is if you push on cohen, you're going to find that donald trump may have been involved in business transactions or family members of the trumps were involved in business transactions that will create liability and exposure for them. so that's probably a greater problem for mr. trump than this case. >> quickly, i would say that perhaps the only reason cohen may not cooperate would be if he thinks he would some way get a pardon for the president. clearly the president doesn't like him very much. >> and lanny davis says he's not looking for that. >> but it was just a few months ago the president pardoned dinesh di souza for campaign finance violations. >> and his defense was that it was a vindictive prosecution.
that was a clear signal. i think one of the things people aren't considering is maybe the southern district prosecutors don't want or need michael cohen's cooperation. they may not think he's a credible enough witness. >> and that credibility is so important. thank you both. ex-trump campaign chairman paul manafort also found guilty on eight charges. a win for the mueller team. what does it mean moving forward? next, a former watergate prosecutor who was texting with rudy giuliani, the president's lawyer, yesterday in all this chaos will join me. what he heard from the president's lawyer. also, he's a founding member of the "trump caucus." one of the president's first supporters in congress. now republican congressman duncan hunter and his wife have been indicted, accused of using campaign funds to pay for a lavish life-style. and in iowa, a small town is grieving a great loss and an autopsy is said if the body believed to be molly tibbetts, an undocumented immigrant charged with her murder.
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it's a major victory for special counsel mueller. paufrlt who ran the president's campaign for five months convicted on eight counts, facing eight years in prison. the president still, though, after that guilty verdict came down calling him a good man, thises after he was convicted of eight different counts of financial crimes and it's not over yet. another big trial looks ahead in a few weeks. jessica schneider is in washington and joins me now. what a day, watching you live, jess. as this news was coming out of the court, it was quite a day. what can you tell us? >> it was a whirlwind day. every minute there was something happening. the president talked about paul manafort and when he did it he referenced paufrtd's previous political work for other presidents including ronald reagan, interestingly, that's
something manafort's defense team did in closing arguments and that didn't work out so well given the conviction on those eight counts. when the president spoke about this as well, he tried to distance himself from paul manafort despite the fact that manafort was his campaign chairman. take a listen. >> manafort's a good man. he was with ronald reagan. he was with a lot of different people over the years and i feel very sad about that. it doesn't involve me but i still feel, you know, it's a very sad thing that happened. this started as russian collusion. this has absolutely nothing to do. this is a witch-hunt and it's a disgrace. >> so the president trying to stress there that paul manafort's conviction had nothing to do with him and, of course, the 12 member jury they did find paul manafort guilty on eight of the 18 charges. they were all related to financial fraud. the judge declared a mistrial on the remaining ten counts because the jury couldn't come to a unanimous agreement so you see
there what manafort has been convicted of. five counts of tax fraud, one count of hiding a foreign bank account. so those last two counts of bank fraud carry up to 30 years in prison each and now prosecutors will have to decide whether or not to bring a retrail for those remaining ten counts of bank fraud and failing to file reports for foreign bank accounts. what's different and why he wasn't convicted, perhaps, on all of those counts is because even though they were similar they span different years and they involve different banks here so poppy, prosecutors now have to decide by one week from today whether they will bring a retra retrial for those other ten counts and then paul manafort is scheduled to go to trial on washington, d.c. for separate counts. >> we many is john sale, a criminal defense lawyer. he's also a former assistant special prosecutor in the
watergate case and a close friend of rudy giuliani. nice to have you. >> thanks, poppy, nice to be with you. >> i know you were texting with giuliani yesterday, he's on vacation? >> he's on vacation. i which i could make breaking news and headlines but the question was "how are you enjoying his vacation?" and his response was "it's great." >> a very difficult news cycle for him and the president so let me get you on paul manafort. the president said he's a good guy, this has nothing to do with me or russia or my campaign. here's the thing, though. when you read the dates on the counts he was convicted guilty of. counts 25 and 27 are about proud lent issues with banks, bnk loans and they extend into march of 2016, that's when he started with the trump campaign. problematic? significant? >> i think they're still
personal financial issues of mr. manafort. the real issue for manafort is everyone is saying they don't know why he didn't make a deal earlier, now it's inevitable he will make a deal. the problem with that is nobody knows if he's inclined what he would say and everybody is assuming he's in the position to hurt the president if he wants to testify against the president. well maybe he is, but maybe he isn't because we have no indication of what he would say if he wanted to make a deal but he's in a difficult situation. i'm in miami and i woke up to see the miami "herald," the headline said president suffers one-two punch. my reaction was that is a catchy headline but what came to my mind is rocky balboa who suffered more than that and
remained standing so we don't know. >> all right, stick with me for this. we just heard from the president on both manafort and cohen so let me read it to you hear. i feel very badly for manafort and his wonderful family, the president writes. justice, in quotes, took a 12-year-old tax case among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him, unlike michael cohen he -- being paul manafort -- refused to break, make up stories in order to get a deal. such respect for a brave man. you just told me you think it is "inevitab "inevitable" that manafort makes a deal with mueller's team and we hear the president calling him a brave man. what do you make of the president and the white house strategy? >> if i said that -- i don't think it's inevitable. i said some people think it's inevitable. i do not because we don't know what he would say and the lead into this piece, the reporter said he's facing 30 years in
prison. that's not realistic because under the sentencing guidelines, he's facing much less. but he's 69 years old so he's facing a lot of time so there's a lot of pressure on him to so-called flip but we don't know if he would, if he wants to or he's in inclined to. we don't know what he would say. but of course there is pardon out there when the president's words like that that he feels sorry for him. i don't know if there will be a pardon or not but that's something that the manafort team has to be thinking about. but he's going into a much more difficult trial in washington. >> you are in your own words very good friends with rudy giuliani, close to him. what's your read on a potential pardon for manafort? >> i don't talk to rudy about anything involving what might be privileged information so i have -- nor does the president. so i don't know. i just think that as a citizen
when the president is saying good man, i feel sorry for him, loyal, those are pardon-type words. i don't know if he's going to pardon him or not and i don't know if it's proeptd or not. >> but pardon-type words in your words. let me ask you about michael cohen. the fact he said in court under oath yesterday that the president of the united states ordered him in coordination with and at the direction of the president of the united states to pay off a porn star and former "playboy" playmate to mislead the american people in the days before the election. how much of a world of hurt do you think that presideuts the president? >> that, if true, is a crime. it's a crime. it could find its way into mr. mueller's report and be characterized as a crime. it's also potentially a quote
high crime and misdemeanor for the congress however everybody is overlooking, it may be true, it may not be true but by mr. cohen saying it it's an accusation on the part of mr. cohen. i'm not saying it's false. it's just an accusation but i want to say one thing if i may. >> please. >> it's unusual that he does not have a cooperation deal and it may very well be that neither the special prosecutor nor the southern district of new york needs him and i was surprised that lanny davis is going all over television saying he has information of interest to mr. mueller. the reason i'm surprise at that is if it were me representing mr. cohen, i would not be peddling that type of information trying to get mr. mueller's attention. the only person we don't see on television is mr. mueller and i'm certain if he's interested in mr. cohen's testimony they
will obtain in the the proper way but it won't be, in my opinion, from one of his lawyers trying to sell it on television. that suggests to me they don't need it. >> and that could be read as being concerning to the white house? >> absolutely. >> john sale important information, thank you for joining me. >> thank you for having me. >> $14,000 vacations. $11,000 runs to costco. here's the problem -- a republican congressman and his wife allegedly used campaign money to pay for it. details about their indictment ah
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more breaking news. a republican congressman and his wife indicted on charges that they funded a lavish life-style with campaign donations. according to prosecutors, congressman duncan hunter of california and his wife margaret lived large, enjoying -- look at this -- a $14,000 thanksgiving vacation to italy, a $6,500 hawaiian vacation, over $11,000 in personal purchases at costco, $5700 spent on themselves and kids at walmart, $2,000 on tickets for a family member to go to a steelers game and the list goes on. this is despite warnings from the congressman's own treasurer to stop the personal campaign spending with campaign donations. hunter was a founding member of the trump caucus during the 2016 campaign. how is he responding this morning? what happens now? let's go to suzanne malveaux who
joins me on the hill. a while ago when this started percolating before the indictment was unsealed he told a local tv station in san diego, yes, there was wrong campaign spending but it wasn't done by me so now what do we know. >> we know that he's part of this trump caucus. now he joins this exclusive club. it was chris collins of new york recently facing federal charges. now hung can hunter and his wife are facing massive charges. i want to go through these. you're talking about wire fraud and conspiracy. campaign violations as well as numerous other charges for that lavish spending, the life-style you talked about all using the campaign funds for these personal expenses and also trying to hide them in reporting. one example is that they went to a golf course and bought
personal clothing at this golf course instead saying these were golf balls we're purchasing for the veterans group wounded warriors. now so far what he has done in his response is through a spokesman say look, this is all a politically motivated, that's very close to the midterm elections. they point to a letter give on the rod rosenstein saying two prosecutors attended a hillary clinton fund-raiser and should be recused. that was thrown out. it should also be noted it was a u.s. attorney appointed by jeff sessions who brought about this indictment so there is the back and forth over whether or not this is politically motivate bud he is facing a crisis situation here. the arraignment and it's too late, according to california, to take him off the ballot so democrats are looking at that seat carefully as potentially one they will be able to target.
in a pretty safe district, california 50, but who knows given these charges. suzanne, appreciate the reporting. thank you. shades of watergate? will the manafort and cohen guilty plea and verdict be enough for republicans to turn on the president? we'll dive into the politics ahead.
quote, michael cohen pleaded guilty to two counts of campaign finance violation that are not a crime. president obama had a big campaign finance violation and it was easily settled. marveg? >> federal prosecutors in the southern district of new york thought otherwise that it was a crime that michael cohen engaged in hush payments to help trump's campaign. that's a fact and what we're seeing from president trump seems to be he's sending a message to paul manafort in his tweets of support and understanding. but manafort hasn't worked with federal prosecutors. he refuses to cooperate. michael cohen has decided to cooperate. h that's bad for donald trump. >> he just said what michael cohen pleaded guilty to is not a crime. if it were not a crime michael cohen would not be facing years
in prison so there's that. >> there's there that which is reality challenged. >> but if you ascribe to the precedent that a sitting president can't be indicted this is for the president a political matter so has the appetite among any republicans for any articles of impeachment if they deem it worthy changed? >> they're playing duck-and-cover to date. there's not a ton more they need to get red in. we know as of yesterday that the heads of the bipartisan senate intel committee, warner and burr said we're going to talk to cohen again and he and his attorney have said there is more information to be had so that could be a direct connection to the russia investigation. what we know is he named the president. he said he committed a campaign finance violation with the intent of affecting the outcome of the election with the now president's direction. there that's a big deal. only one other president has been named an unindicted co-for
or the and that's richard nixon. clearly he's floating the possibility of a pardon but the fact that cohen says he has no interest, that as mark said is bad news no matter how much true you try to spin it. >> what about to my question about republicans and the appetite and if anything has changed in their calculus, republicans in congress in the last 24 hours. we're reminded of senator lindsey graham back in 1999. here he was. >> the point i'm trying to make is you don't even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic. if this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role. impeachment is not about punishment. impeachment is about cleansing the office. impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the
office. >> mark? and john. mark first. >> classic. >> well, a couple things, one is in many ways -- i don't agree with everything lindsey graham said but he is right if donald trump or any president were to be impeached by the house of representatives the senate could convict and the president is out. but as far as how republicans are dealing with this at this time it's not even been 24 ho s hours. it's been 17 hours since these cases have crashed into one another and shaken up the political world but to put in the perspective, they want nothing to do with it. republicans want to step away. there is no loyalty in politics. they are focussed on the midterm elections. what they say now could be different than what happens after november. >> that's possible and mark says there's no loyalty in politics but there is fear and that has kept republicans corralled because they've been afraid of their base which is lopsided
support of donald trump almost whatever he does but what happened yesterday is unprecedented. for a campaign chairman and president's lawyer to become convicted felons within a matter of minutes is unprecedented. the reason i think lindsey graham's quote is useful is that it pushes back on this tide of situational ethics we deal with. imagine for one second that hillary clinton was in the same position. every republican would be standing from the roof tops shouting for convictions and impeachment and you'd like to think there's enough shred of decency in our elected representatives that they'd hold politicians of different parties to the same standard. >> guys, drudge, conservative web site drudge. let me pull up how it's playing this because i think it's telling. the headline "trump's held hour." i keep coming back to this question of did the last 17 hours change anything? if helsinki, "access hollywood" tape, whatever, nothing has moved the needle, does this or no? >> well, you know when this
happened yesterday i've been so desensitized to it all i just brushed it off. it took me about a half our to absorb what was happening and happening to our country. will it move the needle? i go back to something that i was saying about a year ago is that this is just another straw on the camel's back. this just happens to be a heavy one and it's putting congress in a position where they have to do more than investigate. they have to go a little further than where they are now. >> what do you think, john? if we're sitting -- a month from now we're sitting here, what's different? >> i think the legal process is moving forward. a month from now paul manafort's second trial begins in a federal court. the gears of justice are working their way and they're impervious to public opinion and a lot of the strategy has been benefitting from polar sags and the artificial comfort that can
give to folks who are nationally unpopular. but the legal process will move forward and that's why paul manafort hasn't been speaking. is impeachment ultimately a political process? yes. but the standards put out -- this is not a campaign finance violation. this is a campaign finance violation that the person who pled guilty said was done with the intention of affecting the outcome of the election at the direction of the man who is president. >> that's an allegation by someone who has credibility issues, so we'll see where that goes. >> and he's pled guilty. >> mark and john, nice to have you. ahead, a very important and sad story out of iowa that we're following. how did mollie tibbetts die? investigators hope they will get answers one day after aen undocumented immigrant was charged in her murder.
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we provide you the information so you will dig safely. an iowa community is grieving this morning after the body of what is believed to be 20-year-old mollitibbetts was found in a corn field. authorities spent one month searching for her. they have yet to confirm the body is hers, police arrested looking for her. she was studying psychology at the university of iowa and has been missing since she left on july 18th for a run in the evening from her boyfriend's house. ryan young is in iowa following this this morning. what can you tell us about what the authorities are saying and just how that community is responding? >> reporter: poppy, this is so very tough. we talked about this last night.
you can see the reaction throughout this community. we met a young lady last night. she went to take a poster down and she started crying with us saying she can't believe mollie is gone. the headline sums it up for a lot of people here. just says the word here -- murder. you can understand the pains. she used to run cross-country. according to investigators, they got video from a homeowner. the video was detailed enough for them to watch some of this happen. they went back and that's how they developed the suspect 37 from what we are told that homeowner's video had the black car go by, molhe was riding alongside, then was running alongside of her. she said she was going to call 911. he tells investigators that he blacked out and from there know he ended up putting her in the trunk. we're not sure what happened next after that but we do know he eventually took her for a corn field where he put corn
stalks on top of her to try to conceal the body. there are so many questions in this area because they want to know what happened to her, why would he attack her. we want to know the motive. watch this video. this was yesterday at the news conference where we saw friends gathering here who were very upset. this is a painful moment because you could hear people sobbing as investigators were talking about the details of this case, the idea that this young lady could be running and someone just attack her and that big question is just why, why would someone, according to investigators, attack this woman and of course, at this point there are so many questions. there is a court appearance today at 1:00, as well. >> as we wait for that and as we look at the pain on the faces of all of those who loved her, who knew her in this small community, we're learning some new details about who employed rivera. right? he was an undocumented immigrant and who hired him?
>> that is a good point there. he apparently worked at a dairy farm. investigators say he's been in this area for four to seven years. he kept a very small footprint. but he was employed. a lot of people are trying to figure out what happens next and what was the documentation? lot of questions in this community. >> i think he said he cleared through the government e-verify system but a lot of questions about how that could happen. ryan, thank you. we'll talk to you next hour for more. ahead for us -- the white house's new strategy to discredit the man who once said he would take a bullet for the president, this just hours after michael cohen implicates the president in federal court. we are following all of it. to your healthy routine and see how activia yogurt with its billions of live and active probiotics may help support your digestive health so you can take on your day. start the activia probiotic challenge today. it works or it's free!
residents in hawaii right now are bracing as this category 5 hurricane is making its way towards the hawaiian islands. it is called hurricane lane and it is packing sustained winds of 160 miles an hour. officials say the big island of hawaii could start to feel the effects of the storm later today. only four named storms, two hurricanes, two tropical storms, have made landfall in hawaii since 1959. we'll keep a close eye on this one. new details on the passing of legendary singer aretha franklin. we've learned the queen of soul had no will or trust when she died last week. her four sons filed documents lifting themselves and interested parties. the matter will be settled by a probate court. she will be laid to rest and honored on august 31st at wood lawn cemetery in detroit.
with all of that. anderson, one thing we should also note, and it's something you just mentioned a short while ago, that is that one of the reasons why christine blasey ford's legal team is canceling some of these interviews that they had set up is that they wanted to show some good faith to the other side and according to this source that was a welcome sign. it signaled to them that there's sort of a commitment there to get this done. and according to this source, in the words of this source, "we want to work this out." anderson, one other interesting prospect in all of this that i think really needs to be underlined and highlighted, and that is that the conversations are continuing inside the senate judiciary committee to have a female attorney, a prosecutor or litigant of some kind to represent the all-male gop side of the senate judiciary committee. i was talking with a source earlier this evening who said essentially they don't want to have the image out there to the american people of a group of aging men on the senate gop side quizzing and questioning and
the therapist who dr. ford went to? shouldn't she be talked to? it's interesting that dr. ford has gone so far as to take a polygraph. i wonder if judge kavanaugh is willing to take a polygraph. she's done a lot, it seems to me, to reinforce her credibility. credibility that was not at issue when she took these steps. it seems to me that the fbi ought to be investigating that and telling the committee what they found. >> cnn, we're reporting that republicans are looking to bring in a female outside counsel to question ford if the hearing happens. beyond just the optics of it, could it also be more effective in terms of getting closer to the truth and do you think that person should also ask questions for the democrats or do you think democratic senators should ask questions? >> no, i think what's sauce for the goose also go for democrats as well, if you'll forgive me.
and i think having an outside counsel, given how sensitive this is. remember what we're talking about, anderson. we're talking about an allegation. and her side has used these words of "attempted rape." we don't need anybody making points back home, whether on the democratic side or the republican side if what we're trying to do is to find out what happened. because we're talking about a lifetime appointment. we won't be able to do anything about it afterwards. we've got to do it now. >> it doesn't seem like there's anyone on the republican side, though, on the committee talking about bringing in any other potential witnesses other than these two. >> well, anderson, you've got to do one of two things. you've got to have the fbi investigate these witnesses. for example, mark judge. somebody's got to talk to him. or you've got to have a real hearing where these people come before the public. those are really the only two alternatives. somebody's got to investigate those witnesses who are relevant
to this hearing. you can have the fbi do it. they can then work with the committee. or you can bring those witnesses before the committee. now, if there's any other alternative, as a member of congress i don't know what it is. >> as someone who advocated for anita hill,ings, if ford does end up testifying, what advice would you give her going into it? >> i think she has been able -- i think dr. ford has been able to tell her story to professionals, that is to say, to a therapist. she apparently spoke to her own congresswoman and told her story there. she is herself apparently a very intelligent professional. so i would just say to her tell it straight. tell it the way you've been telling it to all those who say they believe you. >> congressman norton, appreciate your time. thank you. i want to broaden the conversation. back with us tonight is former federal judge nancy gertner. now a lecturer at harvard
university's law school. there is cnn political analyst gloria borger and david gergen. judge gertner, when you hear these new details about negotiations between the committee and professor ford's lawyer, how much do you read into that? it's still up to chairman grassley whether he'll push back the monday hearing. >> well, i mean, i think that it's good that she's saying she's going to come to the hearing. she left herself open when she said without x or y, without the fbi investigation she's going to -- she's not going to come. but i want to underscore what the congresswoman said, which is that a hearing without other witnesses and a hearing without investigation sounds like an appeasement to the "me too" movement. in other words, it sounds very much like hey, we'll hear from you, now let's vote. in other words, there's no -- there will be searching entry of her but it becomes he said/she
said more than it already is. while there may be other witness that's you're not going to. so it then relies on a high status male being accused by a lower status female. and that really, forgive me, is an empty ritual at this point. having other witnesses is one thing. having an investigation is another thing. this is really thank you very much for appearing, now let's vote. >> gloria, the notion that republicans on the committee might retain a female outside counsel to question ford and, again, unclear whether that would be in public or in private, how much political strategy would be behind that move? >> well, look, it's all political. they're not dumb. they understand that you have all of these white men who would be questioning this woman, that there is no female to ask questions, and that it would -- the optics of it would look terrible. and you know, from the other point of view if i were
professor ford, i might rather be questioned by the committee, to be honest, in many ways because perhaps she would be able to handle the political questions just with her story whereas a practiced attorney might be better at it than the members of the committee. so you know, it's kind of interesting. they have to on this phone call today, and i've been talking to a couple of sources about it, it was a good call but there are lots of issues that need to be resolved. i mean, if there is an attorney on one side, will there be an attorney on another side for the democrats an, for example, who would go first? how long would they be given? you know, there's still a lot that needs to be resolved. and there's no way -- and everybody knows it that they could have done it by monday. >> david, it certainly seems like there is no appetite, on the part of republicans, to have
an fbi investigation at this point. >> none. zero. i think what we do know, anderson, is they have entered negotiations and both sides seem to want to get to yes. so i think chances are much higher tonight that she's actually going to come and testify. >> even if it's later in the week. >> and i assume chairman grassley as part of that would do it later in the week. but there's no indication of any give of witnesses coming in. very importantly, no give on the idea of having a real investigation before you get there. it's just hard to know how you can put two people and conclude what's the truth if you have no real information about what other parties say. you need to hear from a variety of people under oath. so i think it does come down to he said/she said, which means they're going to vote and he's going to win. i do think also on the outside counsel, it's important to distinguish. this is somebody they're bringing in who's going to be on their side who is trying to
impugn and to discredit. >> this would not be a neutral -- >> this is not a neutral arbiter. so the democrats may be well advised to do that but on the other hand, they've got people who are pretty experienced and they've got women of their own who can ask questions. i'm not sure they need to duplicate that. also what's really striking is the disproportionate amount of power coming into this. here kavanaugh goes into the white house every day and he has hours and hours of prepared testimony. he's got a whole -- the republicans on the hill. they control a lot of this. in some ways it's going to be a david versus goliath or christine versus goliath. that will be tough for her but she may be a more sympathetic character as a result. >> judge, one the things that remains unclear tonight is what if any investigation -- it doesn't seem like there will be any investigation into the
allegations. >> that's significant. i want to step back and say there are three choices here. one is to have an investigation. and no one in any court ever gets on the stand without a private investigation, depositions, discovery. nobody except on "judge judy" does that. that would be one option which they've now rejected. the other would be to have other witnesses so it is not just he said/she said. and that's rejected. now you're talking about sort of the classic troubling scene where yes, you're having her testify, having him testify, but as david gergen indicated this is unequal at the start. and there's no outside context. i can't emphasize enough how unusual it is to simply have people, you know, confront their accuser with no other evidence other than essentially their own words. maybe there is no such evidence out there. but it seems to me we have to look at that before we proceed with this.
i also have to admit that this stuff about talking about the optics. we should be talking about getting to the truth. >> right. i totally agree with you. but you've also got to presume that the staffs of the committees are doing their own internal investigations. the outside groups are doing investigations. they're digging as hard as they can to find whatever they can. and i would presume that if the democrats do their own questioning there will be -- they will have their own information that they will then ask judge kavanaugh about. so what i think we would see coming out of this hearing would be sort of information that people have culled while we've been waiting for this to get started without really an official fbi investigation, which is what they should have had in the first place. >> i think there's a real chance that each side will introduce
ideas or conspiracies about the other side that are unresolved but that push the public in one direction or another. and we do know that the white house forces are very clever at this. and that's why i think she's -- i mean, it's extraordinarily brave of her to come in and do this because she's paid this personal price already. but the odds of winning this kind of argument, unless she can appeal to people's sense of she really is a victim here, she really is being ganged up on. we're going to take a break, continue the conversation. also we'll talk about the details of when, where, how we'll hear from judge kavanaugh and his accuser which are very much in flux. the latest on what we know. also tonight breaking news on the mueller investigation. new word tonight about the time the mueller team is spending with the president's former attorney michael cohen and what they're talking about.
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manu raju also has some new information and i do as well. that professor ford really doesn't want to be questioned by outside counsel. we were talking about that earlier. and she would like senators to question her instead. she doesn't want it to turn into some kind of trial where she's being questioned by an attorney like that. and that she does not want to testify in the same room as judge kavanaugh. she doesn't want to be in the same room with him at the same time. and that -- and manu is also reporting that she wants the committee to subpoena mark judge and these other alleged witnesses. and so those are just some new details we're both learning this evening. >> judge, what do you make of that? >> well, i mean, i think that the -- candidly, with all due respect to the senators, they're
not as good questioners as a lawyer would be even though -- the senators that are lawyers are not as good questioners as someone who is a litigator would be. i mean, that's an interesting choice. you wind up with less probing and more awkward questioning that way. >> do you think there's a reason -- what do you think her reasoning would be on that? you can make the argument that a, she doesn't want an accusatory prosecutor type on the republican side asking her questions. the other side of it is some might argue she wants the visual of, you know, male senators of a certain age asking awkward questions. >> right. i mean, if it's the latter, then it's a political decision. if it's the former, i can understand it as a -- an issue of comfort more than anything else. the other thing is what we're
heading for is a hyperpartisan hearing without a judge. i hate to sort of tout that but there's no one there to say hey, that's an inappropriate question or that's going too far except the partisans on both sides. >> let me just add this, anderson. from a source i just heard from. one of the reasons i believe she doesn't want to be questioned by outside counsel is that she believes senators should be accountable for the questions that they're going to ask and that the burden should be on them to ask the questions they want to ask and not an outside counsel who is a professional at doing this and let them be accountable to the american public. she is going to be accountable to the american public for what she says. they should be accountable, as well. >> i just don't know how this is going to be seen as anything other than a trial. both are going to be -- have to make persuasive arguments. i just don't agree with her on that point. it does seem to me there might be a compromise and that is each
side can select three senators or four senators to represent anybody -- everybody. the stories are not that long. it's not going to take that long to question these people. i think a more relevant question is what is the order? i would think it's probably advisable to go second if you can. but then if the first person is questioned and the other person goes, then do they get rebuttals? how do they keep each other out of the room at the same time? do they take recesses? i think those are going to be important questions as well. >> go ahead. >> as are the questions about subpoenaing other witnesses. again, you make this -- this is already a he said/she said. but you make it a stark he said/she said when all you have are the two antagonists and not other witnesses in other circumstances. >> we're also learning that according to cnn that she wants no time limit on her opening statement. gloria, is that what you're hearing? >> yeah. actually, that's manu's reporting.
they have to choreograph these things, as you know, down to the minute or else, you know, everything can go awry. and clearly, in telling her story it would seem to me, reading between the lines on manu's reporting here, is that she wants to be able to tell her story as she recollects it and tell everything about it and tell how it has affected your -- her life. and so you know, usually in congressional hearings there are time limits about testimony. and i think this is one of the things she and her advisers have said. if she's going to do this and she's going to appear before congress and the world, she wants to be able to tell it all. >> david, we're learning also, the "washington post" is reporting that thursday is a potential date. >> that seems to be a fair compromise. it's good for senator grassley for moving in that direction.
but having said that, it's going to be thursday, you know, there are several days now between now and thursday when they could be doing background investigations. and they could be collecting evidence under oath. that's still the relevant question. >> but if it was to be an fbi investigation that would be something that would have to come from the white house. >> yes. and it would have to come right away. but it gives you ample time. if it took three days to do the anita hill background investigation, why can't they do this essentially in three days? >> judge, do you think there is -- if they do say thursday, then pressure builds to try to have some sort of background investigation? >> i think so. it also is the fairest approach. that's what i was saying before, is there are three alternatives here, which is fbi, witnesses, or just one on one. and they've chosen the least fair approach to either side. >> gloria, so thursday the potential date. no time limit we're hearing. the professor would like no time limit on her opening statement.
i assume if that was the case judge kavanaugh would have no time limit on his opening statement. david raises the point, though, about rebuttals, would they be able to respond and who goes first. there are still many questions to be worked out. >> these are things that need to be worked out. and i think david raises a great point, which is while you're working out all the logistics why not actually have the investigators talk to witnesses. you know, this happened a long time ago. more than 30 years ago. it's not like you have to go through 5 million text messages between kids. this is a more limited kind of investigation. so while they work out one thing, why can't they do two things at the same time? it would seem to me that they're able to do that if the president would say yeah, maybe we ought to do it. rather than letting that go by the boards. she has made it very clear that this is what she would prefer.
but if she doesn't get that, it seems to me she wants to be able to tell her story in full. >> gloria borger, judge nancy gertner, david gergen, thank you very much. coming up next tonight's other big breaking story. reports that michael cohen and robert mueller's prosecutors have been talking a lot about a lot. late details. the possible legal impact and more. when we continue. -computer, order pizza. -of course, daniel. -fridge, weather. -clear skies and 75. -trash can, turn on the tv. -my pleasure. -ice dispenser, find me a dog sitter. -okay. -and make ice. -pizza delivered. -what's happened to my son? -i think that's just what people are like now. i mean, with progressive, you can quote your insurance on just about any device. even on social media. he'll be fine. -[ laughs ] -will he? -i don't know.
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reportedly speaking with russia special counsel robert mueller's team recently and repeatedly according to the "new york times" citing two people with knowledge of the sessions. now, talking according to abc news about some of the president's hottest of hot button issues and reddest of red lines including his financial and business dealings and any allegations about collusion with russia by the trump campaign in the election. in a moment, perspective from a former top federal prosecutor. but right now on the phone cnn political analyst, "new york times" white house correspondent maggie haberman. maggie, what more do you know about the scope of what the mueller team had been talking about with cohen? >> my understanding, anderson, is a pretty wide range i think has covered areas related to the campaign. has covered areas related to president trump's business. remember, michael cohen was not on the campaign. he spent extremely little time there. he was not welcomed by most of trump's campaign advisers. but he certainly has a window into a bunch of the trump campaign -- excuse me, the trump
business activities. among them a trump tower moscow project that he himself had tried to get off the ground at one point that was scuttled at the beginning of 2016. but you know, typically speaking in these kinds of meetings that witnesses have had with the special counsel's office there have not been limits certainly on the kinds of things that they're being asked about, and michael cohen i think can provide a variety of information. the question is going to be whether cohen finds it -- excuse me, mueller finds it valuable. whether mueller believes it either provides new information or whether it backs up other information that he's already received. it's yet another brick in what seems to be this case that mueller is building toward a likely report to congress. >> i can't imagine that this comes as much of a shock to the president. >> i don't think so. michael cohen's adviser lanny cohen -- excuse me, lanny davis.
this is quite a night for me in terms of names. lanny davis had been on tv making very clear that cohen had information that he was willing to give mueller, that he had stories to tell. they were all but picking up an auction paddle saying talk to me both before and after the plea. i don't think this surprises anyone. and i think there's a question if cohen provides valuable information for any of these investigations could he see a reduced sentence? i think that is certainly something his advisers are looking toward. no, i think the president feels under siege by a lot of these things. but i don't expect any of this is a surprise to him at this point. >> you've written about the relationship between michael cohen -- sometimes tortured relationship between michael cohen and citizen donald trump. >> president trump as roger stone, another trump long-time adviser had put it to me for a
story i did several months ago. president trump went out of his way to treat michael cohen like, quote unquote, garbage. now, trump is not exactly easy on anyone, as we all know from our reporting. but he could be particularly tough with cohen. trump's allies and current advisers would say that's because cohen had made some errors and made some mistakes that the president was unhappy with, then candidate trump and before that businessman trump was unhappy with. but he was very tough on him. unfortunately, trump has this sort of one-way loyalty that he exhibits with his aides. he expects it and he often doesn't give it in return. i think you are going to see potentially some of that playing out in cooperation with investigators. >> maggie haberman, appreciate it. thanks very much. let's get some information from cnn senior legal analyst preet bharara. before being fired by donald trump he served as u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york where michael cohen took his guilty plea. >> with cohen cooperating with mueller what doors does this open for mueller? we don't know what if anything cohen has on donald trump.
>> we don't. but we have some basis to think there's a bunch, in at least three categories. we have what he said at his plea agreement. his plea proceeding where he said basically i committed a campaign finance violation at the direction of the president, trump. we also know that he might have some information or at least we can suspect he might have some information that may not carry the day on whether or not donald trump obstructed justice. if he was close to his lawyer and we see from some recorded conversations he had a lot of discussions with his lawyer about things he might not have talked about with other people. there's that bucket. and then there's what's been reported that michael cohen may know a lot about donald trump's endeavors, business and otherwise, in russia. we don't know, but we know he's talking a lot and he has some reason to try to provide as much information as possible because it helps him. >> it is particularly remarkable, especially on the heels of paul manafort cooperating, also obviously michael flynn, gates, all -- papadopoulos, all these people who had been around the
president. the sheer number of people who mueller has turned is pretty extraordinary. >> i think he's basically gotten everybody. i've said recently that based on the mueller track record -- i don't think mueller goes after someone unless he knows he has the goods. if you read the documents in these cases, they're really strong. not just giving little bits of information about why someone is guilty of a crime. they're what we call speaking charges, speaking indictments. even the ones against the folks for example at the gru, the folks in russia who were charged with various crimes, who were never going to get in the country, never going to be able to slap cuffs on. the detail in these charging documents is such that i think mueller appreciates even more than the average prosecutor the importance of the public having confidence that he's bringing cases that are well grounded in fact. >> according to this report also they have discussed whether or not anyone around the president had broached the idea of a
pardon. and if a pardon was broached, what's the significance -- is that a possible obstruction? >> look, you have to be careful about what conclusions you draw from the questions that prosecutors ask. and i know everyone wants to jump to the conclusion. but i'll tell you, when we were in conference rooms with cooperating witnesses and the people who work for me were doing the same thing you go through a checklist and you ask about the thing that you think is most likely true. right? but then you go concentric circles around the core of what you're looking at with that person. i'm not saying this is that. but you ask a lot of questions of people that may be a little bit out of left field just to make sure that you've covered your bases. and so it is possible that they're close to bringing some kind of case that involves obstruction and that's at the heart of what they're looking at and what they're asking michael cohen about. but it's also possible that it's at the periphery and they're just covering their bases because i think it would be irresponsible -- i think any witness that comes across their desk they have to ask questions about obstruction. you have to do that for exhaustive purposes. >> cohen's participation in this
has been voluntary. what's in it for him -- >> that's sort of odd. given that he's sort of playing around in three jurisdictions. you don't have that that often. it happens from time to time, you share a cooperating witness. >> meaning you think normally he would try to get something out of it before cooperating? >> yeah. you usually have a deal with the office with whom you're trying to cooperate. and usually you work all that out. if there are multiple offices they'll have a basis for an investigation, in a organized crime office or corporate fraud or anything else, it gets worked out in advance so everyone knows what the promises are, what they can expect, everyone knows what the prosecutor's going to argue for even if the prosecutor can't guarantee a lenient sentence because that's up to a judge. >> the fact cohen has had these interviews, does it make it any less likely or more likely that the president might sit down with mueller? it seems the more mueller knows the less it would be likely the president would sit down. >> my sense, we're talking about likelihood in the sort of 1% to
2% range. i think the likelihood of the president sitting down is fairly close to zero. i don't know that that particular factor would play in it at all. >> thank you. other emerging details around the possible testimony v professor christine blasey ford and reaction to the story from a group of republican women in florida. you might be surprised what they have to say. you'll hear from them next. ♪ this is a story about mail and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you ♪
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everyone that speaks about him. this guy's an altar boy, a scout. because one woman made an allegation, sorry, i don't buy it. >> but in the grand scheme of things, my goodness, there was no intercourse. there was maybe a touch. can we -- really? 36 years later? she's still stuck on that? had it happened. >> i mean, we're talking about a 15-year-old girl, which i respect. you know, i'm a woman. i respect. but we're talking about a 17-year-old boy in high school with testosterone running high. tell me what boy hasn't done this in high school. please, i would like to know. >> why would she come forward if this wasn't true? because it has basically destroyed her family. she's had to move, she's gone undercover. she's gotten death threats. so if she's lying, why come forward? >> she's also destroying his life, his wife's lives, his children's lives. his law career. i mean, why didn't she come out sooner if she's telling the truth? why didn't she come out when he was going into the bush white house? why didn't she come out -- he's been a federal judge for over a
decade. >> why not have a thorough investigation instead of just the two of them he said/she said? >> it doesn't matter. it does not matter what everyone else has to say. >> this is what happened, though, with clarence thomas and anita hill. the fbi investigated. it took three days. done. why not now? >> this is not the same. this is a high school kid. there's no anita hill story. >> does something that allegedly happened some 30-plus years ago matter today? >> you can't judge the character of a man based on what he did at 17. >> and i would hate to think that 30, 40 years later somebody's going to destroy your life because someone at some party you -- it's not right. but maybe you touched somebody the way you're not supposed to -- >> and who brought the alcohol for these kids? >> as women, though, do you have some sympathy for her for what she's going through? >> no, i have no sympathy. and perhaps at that moment she liked him and maybe he didn't pay attention to her afterwards and he went out with another girl and she got bitter or whatever the situation is. they're kids. >> if it is true, would it be
okwu if he became a justice on the supreme court? >> as long as that's an isolated incident, yes. he was 17. he was not even an adult. and we all make mistakes at 17. i believe in a second chance. >> i'd be more than okay with him being supreme court judge. if the person made a mistake and they move on and they have been a good human being, you know, who are we to judge? >> joining me now for perspective, cnn political analyst and "usa today" columnist kirsten powers. also carrie severino, chief counsel and policy director of the judicial crisis network which supports the kavanaugh nomination. i'm wondering what you make, what you heard from that group of women who believe judge kavanaugh. >> well, i just want to say this idea that any 17-year-old has done this is just completely incorrect. i went to high school. i actually went to a private jesuit high school. it wasn't all boys the way this was. it was coed. this was not the way the boys i went to high school with
behaved. it's not normal behavior. we have to be very careful about saying that, specially to teenagers today. we don't want them to think that this is normal behavior for teenage boys. i do agree that you don't want to hold a person to everything they've done as a teenager and that people absolutely can do bad things when they're teenagers and turn into great members of society. i don't question that at all. but if this happened, i do think that it's not -- the supreme court is such a rarefied position, to be a supreme court justice in this society, and you are being a judge on the highest court in the land and you are held to a different standard than other people are. i think you can both say that yes, someone can make a mistake when they're 17 years old and it doesn't have to haunt them for the rest of their life and also say, but you know, they proba y shouldn't be on the supreme court. >> carrie, what do you make of the woman who said tell me what boy hasn't done this in high school?
did that concern you? >> that is a little concerning. i fear, though, it's all too common. i've had friends who had similar experiences happen to them. but i still don't think -- if there was attempted rape going on here, that obviously is something that should be taken very seriously and not discounted simply because it's old. that said, i think all the evidence is pointing to the fact that brett kavanaugh did -- was not involved here. the experience she describes is horrible. but i think we've seen more and more people coming saying you know, the people that have been identified there so far. we had another one, p.j. smith, who said i was identified as being at that party and i can tell you i was never at a party like that with brett kavanaugh, this is not like what i knew him to be. so that -- of course you couple that with all of the dozens of women who say they knew him at the time. it doesn't add up with him. his repeated adamant and very confident denials saying this was not me. i think it's -- the evidence points to the fact that it actually wasn't. >> kirsten, one of the arguments that some of the women randi talked to made is that why now?
why didn't she come forward with this earlier? brett kavanaugh has been, you know, in the public eye. he's gone through confirmation hearings and had background investigations in the past. >> yeah. it's distressing to me to hear people saying that after what we've gone through with "me too" because i feel like this issue has been covered so thoroughly, that this is very standard for through sexual trauma and sexual harassment for that matter. that they feel ashamed, they feel like something's something is wrong with them, maybe they caused it. they fear they'll be ostracized if they come out. there's a lot of fear involved. and there's a lot of good reasons not to bring it up. we have to remember especially during this era. it was not an environment where a woman or girl could feel she could bring this up and be heard
and taken seriously. >> i wonder what you make of the reporting tonight. we're hearing professor ford does not want an outside counsel by the republicans, a female outside person questionings her or even a staff counsel that she wants the questions to come from senators. do you see that as reasonable or political? >> i'm not sure what the logic is. there are several of those. we just had reports of all the different demands she's making. if you watched those hearings previously. having the senators do it, means you don't have a continuous line of questioning. you've got people overlapping. it's very hard to follow. frankly, the senators aren't very good questioners, some people suggested it's going to be harder questioning from a lawyer. i'm not sure that's clear. we saw some very aggressive questioning at the kavanaugh hearing recently. i liked the idea. i heard a few days ago, let's have her lawyers question
kavanaugh and kavanaugh's lawyers question her. i do know chairman grassly has tried to be as accommodating as possible with all of her requests. i'm sure they will make every effort to be as accommodating as they can. >> we have to go. kirsten powers, thank you. one quick note now about a cnn special you don't want to miss especially now. take a look. >> one year ago, hurricane maria devastated puerto rico. the president claims the recovery efforts were a huge success. >> i think we did a fantastic job in puerto rico. >> cnn has the real story. >> what do you want people to know? >> please come here more. >> a decorated combat veteran living in a tent. >> the truth is that people died because the trump administration did not pay attention. >> cnn special report, a storm
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this sunday the cnn original series "this is life with lisa ling" returns for an all new susan. she takes us to a gang of ms-16. lisa ling joins me tonight with more details. in this episode you look at ms-13 and you particularly tell the story of a young girl from virginia who was murdered by ms-13. the ages of the people involved on the victims and the people in the gang, these are young people. >> ms-13 has been around for a long time. it started in the '80s and has been on the east coast since then. what's different now is over the last couple years, there's been this wave of unaccompanied minors who showed up on our border and they're vulnerable kids.
most of them have experienced severe trauma because their home countries have been decimated and are devastated by street gangs like ms-13. they come here, some of them haven't been with their family members for years and years, they don't fit in, and they're just looking for a place to belong. >> and they're placed in communities, whether it's virginia, long island -- >> parts of boston, and they're not able to deal with the population. it's kids attacking kids, and the trump administration would like us to believe that ms-13 is this transatlantic criminal enterprise, but the reality is that while there are many members of ms-13, it's very disorganized. they don't actually make a lot of money. you can't even compare them to sophisticated drug trafficking organizations.
and they prey on young, vulnerable kids. >> and the violence we've seen. >> the violence is horrific. >> what are some of the other things you're going to be focusing on this season. >> we'll be looking at the scourge of methamphetamines that have been overtaking many states including oklahoma. we have an episode of gender fluidity. i'm excited about this one. we're in the midst of this gender revolution that's being led by kids. these kids are very open about the fact that they don't feel entirely male or female. they're sort of like this third gender. and they speak about it very insightfully. and their family members, the ones we've profiled at least, have been so accepting. so it's a really fascinating and exciting kind of episode and movement that's happening. >> look forward to the whole season. lisa ling, don't miss the season
player. plays. i've played. played. played. some time in the 26th. my great granddaughter. what was the world be like in your lifetime and around half a century. your world will be around true degrees warmer. inevitably sea levels rise by at least one meter in this century. we're
going to have some climate impacts maternal greater than we see over me. that's really frightening. plays. why are people more concerned. little yellow box stores may 31st on t.w. . as an attraction even if you never wanted it this way. the 30 year old male elephant lives in chiang mai in northern province of thailand. it's. here tourists can ride elephants and admire their acrobatics yet many animal.
welfare organizations are convinced that young elephants in captivity are subjected to a cruel procedure to make them tame. the management of the elephant camp would rather not talk about whether ning and his fellow elephants have been tortured in this way . it's early in the morning just after 7 o'clock is restless maybe the bull elephant is waiting for his working day to finally begin but maybe he just wants to break free of the chain which keeps him tethered to his sleeping area every night. for syrup at chemistry the vet at the camp there is no cause for concern either way. i think he have a problem with hoss i think in the last 2 shots back and all i have been
asked and i hear you walt are and made their share and it's not. fairly and then they share and it was really just to shock them no longer. mr sawyer gets ready for his working day at around half past 6 every morning too he lives in this house with his family barely 50 meters away from an area. for over 10 years he's been ings my hoot as the thai people call the handlers of the working elephants. as i'm a hoot mr sawyer is responsible for feeding and taking care of me but his chief role is akin to that of a tamer even if he prefers to see himself as a partner. for me what inning is like a member of the family. all you've got our relationship is based on love and mutual respect. he's been living with me now for over 10 years. just like you would like
with family or a good friend. day begins with a decent breakfast an adult elephant eats about $200.00 kilos of food per day preferably grass and leaves. his eating mr sawyer takes care of business from the previous night. he then finally frees the elephant from his twisted shackles but even during the day it's a life in chains for all of the 79 elephants in the camp ning is obviously used to the routine. it. does not like being rushed in the early morning i've. got. over. before the bull hook has to be used ning decides to get moving after all his daily shower awaits he can always eat his breakfast on the way. it's almost an hour until
the 1st tourists will be sitting on the back before they come he has to go through the elephant wash as he does every morning. for a little. only a few commands are required for his morning grooming and mr sawyer are a close knit team. so. after his early scrub the elephant has saddled up a daily feat of strength for mr sawyer for. the riding seat alone weighs around 40 kilos mr sawyer says that ning scarcely feels the weight after all as an adult elephant ning weighs about $3.00 tons himself. and mr sawyer making their way to the start of the ride the 1st guests are eagerly waiting as is mostly the case. the visitors are nearly all chinese. herbal
most western tour operators have long since removed traditional plants like this one from their catalogs as many animal welfare arrests in europe or the usa consider writing operating the elephants as cruelty to animals. the camps marketing officer sees no fault with a traditional concept. like. we do pro wine their culture way that we all fly about thai people and often walk how do they how do we live with the people read their minds 3 of the people from the outside how to ride on the elephant how the people use their leverage in the past in the past me read go on the often be yourself and have presentations us until the forestation was banned in 1989 elephants in thailand were also used in forestry. now they only stack heavy logs to entertain 2 arrests.
around $5000.00 elephants in total live in thailand today with around $3000.00 of them in captivity. nina earthman brassicas a danish biologist she advises elephant camps on how to combine 2 or isn't better with animal welfare she thinks that in a perfect world elephants would be free not held in captivity but the reality is a different one in thailand now it's about maintaining certain basic standards at least so. so good welfare can easily be done in a riding camp if you provide the elephant with shade enough good enough water enough rest and and otherwise free from discomfort also. needing his name means number one in the thai language is the star among the elephants in the camp it has the longest tusks of all the elephants. the camp has been his home for over 20 years. prior to that he lived in a mountain village on the border to me in march as
a working. woman has never known a life in the wild and he knows what the guests expect of him. a young couple from china gets to riding 1st the elephant doesn't seem to mind who sits on his back as long as he has the right snacks for the journey. the shortest. i'd last almost 30 minutes and costs around 20 euros longer rides are also possible . ning knows the route by heart in a normal day he gives 5 rides the visitors are usually thrilled. there you go $18.00 was already wobbly at the beginning but then it's a pretty good feeling on. what. some guests are bothered by the the most important tool of every man. i don't like because he.
is keeping to the stick i don't like. i like all that that's. the can't manager tells us that in some situations it takes more than the soft touch to control an elephant no one and no one. cares i think it's too dangerous because elephants are the bricks and the mouth's. when you wear. some days they have lists even the dog yet you have something like that but often they are quite much more bigger than golf so we've been in a storm in need to be strong. lunch time in the camp time for ning to do what he always does for mr sawyer it's his 1st meal since breakfast but he doesn't need 200 kilos of food pre-date to keep up his strength. mr so explains how important it is that the elephants have enough food also to control the animals.
while. winning is obstinate and doesn't react to my commands then i give him something to eat. if he's still in a bad mood i have to use my bull hook just a little pack is usually enough to calm him down love all we have we have a little hay called the union lake on. new north and brask tells us that a lack of transparency constantly impedes her work. in particular the camp management refuses to talk to her about the training of young elephants. historically they have used. a very brutal way of training the young elephants to make them listen to them hooks. and actually due to this very brutal training method that is now what is deterring many tourists from going into the much additional camps because it is a firm belief that all elephants and to do show is to do any sort of entertainment for guests and tourist. can only do so because they have been through
a brutal training let alone. busy are available on the internet showing the cruelty and valving breaking in the elephants as it is called it is not known exactly where and when these films were. not the brutal procedure can take up to a month the animal is only freed once it stops fighting back. this method was practiced for centuries in the entire region today there are laws against cruelty to animals in thailand but if no one complains it seems not to be an issue. is unclear to what extent the brutal training methods are still practiced today. that at the camp remains vague when asked about the assured. in our town we tried to use the combination of. the them and make it he was meant.
they don't know about the naked man the father naked he had many just a really as some ratio to them and when i found doing the right thing he removed. a lot of the hooded this being. he had hinted that. in fact is not that. a nice long drink at the end of the day after a good 7 hours with the writing seat on his back working day is over so just mr sawyer has to work hard. one of the things i noticed about this is in the end of this kind of very close and almost so respectful relationship it has with its hands less and i think it's
all so it's all in there like the management of that animal is based on on a mutual respect and not so much. who's who who's got a weapon or not. named mr sawyer on the way back to the sleeping area. suddenly the elephant stops in his tracks he needs to have a scratch these concrete pillars are just the thing to relieve his it. is one of the few moments when one can simply do as he likes with no drills or commands. and then it's shackle time again. will spend the next 14 hours tethered to the spot. later on mr sawyer will bring him fresh food. and tomorrow the whole thing will start again.
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and if nothing else it's not easy to go to another country you know nothing about what am do this because we can't stay on venezuela. that. closely global news that matters d.w. made for mind's. eye.
more things. ings be but with this in partic, i'e olso confused becaus considering the things of him that we do see. >> yesm e . >> ooh, yeah. what could he what could possibly be happening in these e tapes? >> because when we do see himpsc speak,au i'm not like there's a man. >> i'm confident, you know. yeah. confu wha is happening on thes. >> would it be great if he was> like, hunter jusift doing big honkin lines about, you know, got to be something crazy? brian, don't you wish they could edit "fox and friends" so you wouldn't look so idiotic? >> brian don you can. i don't on me, right? >> i'm doing it for you.'m this i'm this thing called likable. ' >> you know what that's like. i think i was votetd bothwere more trustworthy than you were by. by the hollywood reporter. >> right. i don't think so. i'm so. >> so let's listen. it's to show you if you are
E-waste generation has broadly increased worldwide and is called intense pressure on sustainable practice implementation firms by recycling and redesigning the products. Thus, e-waste operation management in developed countries like the UK has become the top priority and is subjected to multiple sustainable circular economies (CE) contributing factors, including social, technical, environmental, and governmental policies. The authorized decision-makers can benefit from a well-established systematic decision-making tool to assess and evaluate the e-waste operation management considering the potential CE contributing factors. An extensive literature overview is expanded to identify the most relevant and influential contributing factors to e-waste CE. The city of London Metropolitan has been selected as the case location. In this regard, it is necessary to utilize an advanced multi-criteria decision-making tool to explore the interdependency and causality of CE-relevant factors. The present study proposed an innovative decision-making approach to address the multiple contributing factors of causality, interdependency, data, and model uncertainty in practice. It uses the step-wise weighted influence nonlinear gauge system method integrated with Fermatean fuzzy linguistic sets. This study conducted a sensitivity analysis to evaluate the effectiveness of the proposed decision-making approach in e-waste operation management. The results are promising, clearly demonstrating the framework’s competence. The CE index, crucial in designing e-waste operation management strategies, was calculated to be 2.8036. Among the various factors analyzed, “Environmental Management Systems” emerged as the most significant driving factor. This underscores the critical need to improve environmental management systems within e-waste operations.